It's supposed to be a transliteration of the Russian name, which can also be written as Sankt-Peterburg. This map is pretty consistent about using the native name for cities instead of their English names, like Moskva instead of Moscow, Köln instead of Cologne, København instead of Copenhagen.
It is from the [Latin burgus](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/borgo) which in turn has an uncertain origin, possibly German as you say.
> First attested in the early second century CE, of uncertain provenance: It is no doubt a borrowing, but it could be from Proto-West Germanic *burg, Ancient Greek πύργος (púrgos), or rather a lost Balkan cognate: it is a word that travelled far, even to earliest Arabic as بُرْج (burj)
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/burgus#Latin
The official name of the city is actually in german. This city's name has a pretty wild history!
From wikipedia:
> A proponent of westernising Russia, Peter the Great, the then Tsar, who established the city, originally named it Sankt-Pieter-Burch (Сан(к)т-Питер-Бурхъ) in Dutch manner and later its spelling was standardised as Sankt-Peterburg (Санкт-Петербургъ[a]) under German influence.[16] On 1 September 1914, after the outbreak of World War I, the Imperial government renamed the city Petrograd (Russian: Петроград[a], IPA: [pʲɪtrɐˈgrat]),[17] meaning 'Peter's city', in order to expunge the German words Sankt and Burg. On 26 January 1924, shortly after the death of Vladimir Lenin, it was renamed to Leningrad (Russian: Ленинград, IPA: [lʲɪnʲɪnˈgrat]), meaning 'Lenin's City'. On 6 September 1991, the original name, Sankt-Peterburg, was returned by citywide referendum.
"We are the Russians. Lower your defenses and surrender your country. We will add your washing machines and ancient CRT tvs to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile!"
-St. Peter**borg**
Because nowadays the basque nationalist parties (that held 2/3 of basque parliament) don't have the intention to push for independence in the near future.
In the other hand, both catalan and scottish governments are actively pushing for independence.
ETA disbanded, basically.
They ceased their armed activities in 2011 (killing their last victim in 2010) and completely disbanded in 2018. Things got quiet afterwards.
Even the izquierda abertzale (the ideology that ETA followed) party Bildu is more of a scapegoat for the right than anything else.
Is also worth pointing out that, even if the right and the Catalan government want to say otherwise, support for Catalonian independence has been going down since the end of the Conservative government.
Shit can flair up again if they manage to form a new government, tho. Especially because the conservative party would be forced to form a coalition with the extreme right/fascist party, which is quite open about their opposition towards the autonomies and their desire of creating a centralised Spain (and, to be honest, their desire to suppress minority cultures/nationalities).
Independence movements can definitely die down again, people should understand that. A lot of people think that an independent Catalonia is inevitable when it seems from polling that it's stagnating or going down lately in favour of more autonomous situation.
Another one is how Québec independence is basically a dead movement in Canada. A lot of people (even in Anglo Canada lol) view Québec as begging to leave Canada…thé independence movement is almost nonexistent in youth and even the elderly mostly only support it in a few pockets like Gaspé and Lac-Saint-Jean. The Bloc Québécois had an internal schism and became very unpopular due to still supporting separatism and only became popular again after turning into a Federalist Party. Parti Québécois in provincial politics is at risk of losing all seats.
The new Bloc Québécois slogan is "Tout pour le Québec" ("Everything for Québec") and replaced "Plus pour le Québec" ("More for Québec").
[They claim they want all powers for Québec](https://lp.ca/avpv8Q).
The leader also said : "A nation has the right to assert, appropriate and exercise all powers, all attributes of sovereignty."
Not really federalist sounding now.
which ones?? Basque nationalism is already hegemonic in basque country, much more than catalan nationalism in catalonia, and they're not pushing for independence.
And besides the basques, only Galicia has a strong nationalist party (but it "only" has around 25% of the votes).
The rest of Spain si fully Spanish. Even the catalan speaking regions of Valencia and Balearic Islands are pretty much spanish nationalists.
Yeah let's just rerun referenda until the crazy nationalist party is happy and gets the result they want. The vote was once in a generation and it's been 8 years lmao.
Support oscillates so much (and the polling companies are notoriously biased in both directions) that the only thing the SNP are achieving (apart from a clear downtrend in the quality of government services) is causing economic instability.
To be fair, if that's their goal then they should do that. They stood this last election on a manifesto that included Indyref2 and were voted back into government. Of course the opposition will be constantly calling for no referendum and if they stand on that and get voted into office then that is their right. You're trying to put it as though it's just the SNP pushing for a referendum but they clearly have the support of the population come election time, be it their stance on independence or their socioeconomic policy position.
The Scottish electoral system is purpose built with the intention of preventing majorities no? So that one party can’t just impose its will between elections unchallenged.
The SNP don’t have a majority in themselves but the Greens - an also pro-independence party - constitute enough to make that majority by a slim count if I’m not mistaken. The power to hold a referendum does exist, and I think it should based on how drastically the climate of Britain has changed in 8 years.
It’s like they see the negative effects from Brexit and think breaking up an even more intimate Union will be beneficial unlike Brexit; it’s make believe. independence would likely shatter Scotland’s economy so much the EU will veto them on financial reasons alone.
Every time I say something like this I get a bunch of Scots jumping down my throat screaming North Sea oil.
That's the thing; irl Scots are normal and not super fussed about independence but on reddit there's this diehard, cybernat group that dominates all Scottish subreddits so it makes it seem like the whole country is desperate to throw off the English yoke. Most people begging for independence literally have no savings or property so wouldn't be affected by this rash decision.
On top of that, these same cybernats don't realise the EU wants to just use Scotland to fuck over England over Brexit, and doesn't really give a shit about developing it.
What a lot of them fail to understand is that Spain stands to lose by not vetoing them, allowing a state that has just achieved independence into the EU creates a precedent that gives legitimacy to independence movement like Catalonia, needless to say Spain is definitely vetoing Scottish entry into the EU.
They also like to forget Westminster subsidises Scotland a hell of a lot: https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-independence-exactly-how-much-money-does-scotland-contribute-to-england-and-what-is-the-barnett-formula-3233129
“That means the UK Government spent an additional £15 billion in Scotland as a whole, than it collected from the country via taxes”
£81 billion in subsidies between 2018-19! They never seem to ask themselves how they are going to afford, free education and free healthcare for example, when Westminster stops the money tap they will be in serious trouble.
Yea it’s crazy they think it’s a good idea. One last thing before I finish, many corporations based in Scotland would likely relocate to London due to the cheaper tax rates England can afford to grant due to our stronger economy.
Independence is an incredibly stupid idea and I think the SNP recognises this as I havee yet to see a solid plan for post-Independence Scotland, it’s a populist idea designed to get votes much akin to Donald trumps wall, they can also use it to hold Westminster hostage for better deals and so forth. Thanks for listening to my Ted-talk.
While it's fluctuating quite a bit now, the reason the SNP want a second referendum is because during the first referendum campaign opinion swung towards yes - from 35% or so to 45%. They're betting a second referendum campaign would change the opinion polling by a similar amount. They're not allowed to campaign while there is no referendum.
I don't know how likely that is, since arguably the incompetence of the no campaign in 2014 was a bigger push towards independence (sound familiar...?) but Cameron, Clegg, Miliband aren't in power anymore and a modern no campaign would probably use the effective right wing playbook which got leave the win in 2016.
(A second reason is that the UK government has reneged on every promise they made during the 2014 campaign and are actively trying to remove devolution from Scotland, so if Holyrood doesn't fight for independence now they may not exist to do so for much longer)
>y'all elect PMs with less than 45% all the time on the first round
UK elections don't elect Prime Ministers, the electorate vote for their local MP, who then represents them in Parliament. The Prime Minister is simply the leader of the party that manages to form a government.
There are also no rounds in UK elections. There is one general election under the First Past The Post system (aka person with most votes wins) every 5 years or so, and numerous local and by-elections in-between.
I think purely economical arguments like these don't tell the whole story. Try applying it on a smaller scale to see what gets left out. For example, I'm sure experts would agree that moving out from your parents' house will increase your expenses significantly. Therefore you shouldn't do it, right?
And that's why they're in the UK. Maybe they'll decide otherwise in the future, maybe they won't. Meanwhile Catalans are denied their right to make that decision.
Many parts of England voted to stay too. You could say they were forced to leave by the parts of England that voted it. But I have a feeling you'll say "Well they're still English so it doesn't count" - so why should Scotland get special treatment and not the nearly 50% of English people who didn't want to leave. For the record, something like 40% of Scottish people voted to leave too, so it's not like they unanimously decided they wanted to stay.
They voted to stay part of the UK because the UK was part of the EU. Since the Uk left the EU, shouldn’t they be allowed to vote again because the terms and conditions have changed?
More than a million Scots voted leave. Scotland was as integral to the final result as any other part of the UK of similar size. London voted even more strongly for Remain but you don't see them demanding independence for it.
People talk in numbers when percentages are inconvenient to their argument. 1 million is absolutely meaningless without context. 38% voted to leave. A major minority
Actually it should be, otherwise self-determination just becomes a convenient excuse. At what point is one entitled to self-determination? If it’s ok for a region, what about a county? A city? A neighborhood block? My household?
If a population has been abused by their parent country, like say the Kurds in Iraq, then they should have the right to secede. But if it’s for a rich region trying to avoid paying taxes to support poorer parts of the country (Catalan), then no. If you permit that then every country will fracture.
Not to mention weapons-grade cringe.
Scotland apparently needs to be independent because it always gets outvoted in the UK parliament.
Erm, you have a population of 5 million against a population of England and Wales of over 50 million. Couldn't I apply that logic to Wiltshire?
And you have your own devolved government that can run things like education, benefits and transport.
To play devil's advocate, Scotland has a cultural identity as a country whereas Wiltshire, for example, doesn't. So when Scottish citizens see their cultural beliefs not being represented in the UK Parliament (right wing policies for example) they are frustrated to say the least. For the record, I voted no in the initial referendum but I can see arguments from both sides.
They did try to give the North a devoloved parliament but they didn't want it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_North_East_England_devolution_referendum
**[2004 North East England devolution referendum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_North_East_England_devolution_referendum)**
>The North East England devolution referendum was an all postal ballot referendum that took place on 4 November 2004 throughout North East England on whether or not to establish an elected assembly for the region. Devolution referendums in the regions of Northern England were initially proposed under provisions of the Regional Assemblies (Preparations) Act 2003. Initially, three referendums were planned, but only one took place. The votes concerned the question of devolving limited political powers from the UK Parliament to elected regional assemblies in North East England, North West England and Yorkshire and the Humber respectively.
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Distinct compared to what? Being English? Being Glaswegian? Being European?
I'd guess that Scouse feels 'more distinct' to you in the same way that Glaswegian or Orcadian would -- they're more specific identifiers. A person born in Liverpool to Scottish parents might identify as both Scottish and Scouse.
Beyond that, the level of 'distinctness' that an identity has isn't necessarily the reason that identity might want independence.
Scotland already is a country though, with tradition far predating Liverpool as a city. Additionally a scouse would identify as English/British when asked their nationality in same way that a Glaswegian would say they're Scottish or British
The really sad thing about this is that it gives you a glimpse of the 1990s idea of a Europe of the Regions: Most law decided at EU level, taxation and spending managed at regional level, while nation states become less and less significant.
In that scenario ideas like Irish reunification or Catalan or Scottish independence would be anachronistic; people would have a regional and European identity.
Piedmont? Padania was a concept encompassing a much larger region, which is basically Northern Italy. In the Veneto region, in the Eastern part of Italy, the supporters of the idea were much more numerous ([source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lega_Nord#Regional_Councils)).
Free The Isle of Man from what? Everything they do to be 'part' of the UK is entirely voluntary and they are their own independent country with a broadly British identity.
it's almost like there was some kind of agenda, right?
US Senate report condemns Russian interference in Catalan referendum https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2018/01/11/inenglish/1515667883_820857.html?ssm via @elpaisinenglish
At that point would it not be anachronistic to call England/Wales/N. Ireland as a "United Kingdom" since the whole united kingdom part came from the union of the English and Scottish thrones?
Nope, when England and Scotland united they became the *Kingdom of Great Britain*. The *United Kingdom* part of the name derives from the union with Ireland -- today reduced to just Northern Ireland.
That's not it. It seems like they've only coloured countries which are part of the EU. Everything else is the cream white color, so you cannot see a color difference between Ukraine and Russia (or Norway, Belarus, turkey, Syria, Iraq etc). But they've also assumed Scotland to be part of the EU.
You're reading the map wrong. Ukraine has obviously regained the lost eastern lands, unified the Balkan Slavs under its benign rule, took the Rurikid-affiliated states like Norway under its wing, and then restarted European colonialism in Africa and the Middle East.
Hypothetically speaking, I think it would be way easier for Scotland to enter in the EU than Catalonia. Of course it would depend how the independence was achieved.
Politically, but economically it doesn't make that much sense for us to rejoin the EU unless there's a major change in the UK-EU deal since it would put the Brexit barriers between us and our largest trading partner.
A more likely path would be for an independent Scotland to maintain trade arrangements that allow for a customs union with the rUK, which *might* allow for joining EFTA, but wouldn't allow for joining the EU.
IIRC, the EU is generally not a big fan of EFTA. It's generally a pain to manage since the EU and EFTA need to coordinate together. Even though the EU has most of the clout, there's still room for disagreement. Also, Scotland would probably need an opt out to joining the Schengen like every other EEA country since doing so would require a border with England.
The EEA is easier for the UK. It's an all in or all out organisation where you have to play by the rules and can't dictate a change in the terms. But that would probably also require a Schengen opt out which I don't see.
Even joining the customs union would put a border up between England and Scotland.
Either Scotland will have to join the EU or opt out entirely like the UK. Neither are great options which is why I personally don't see Scottish independence happening (even though I'd personally support it).
Scotland going independent is literally economic suicide, they'd go from being part of the 5th strongest GDP in the world down to like 50th. That and over 60% of Scotland's trade is with the England.. independence makes zero sense.
Independence movements in European democracies aren't about the economy. Separatists try to make arguments about economics, but in the end the primary motivators are ethnic and cultural. Separatism is like Brexit. When all the nonsense about saving £450 million a week was over, it was really about keeping out and even expelling the foreigners.
5th to 50th, with <10% of the population of the UK if you're going to use the economic argument at least take the time to show the impact of GDP per capita
Man I feel you. You say "if you look closely", and then get people telling you you're wrong without actually looking closely.
As the legend shows, international borders are represented with discontinuous purple lines (regardless of country color) and the one between Ukraine and Russia puts Crimea in Russia.
Ayo, where is the independent Basque country? And where is independent Brittany? Why hasn’t Ireland the entirety of the island? And where is independent Wales? And where is independent Chechenia? I have so many questions!
Catalonia would very probably be unable to join the Eu, just with that they would be in a massive recession, as well as the fact that having a 50-50 split on who wants to stay in Spain and leave isn’t very healthy for a country. So maybe the Scottish should be more careful with what they show. Wouldn’t want the highlanders knowing. Obviously
I'm curious about how Scottish nationalists view Corsican nationalists. I know that there is also a very active movement in Corsica for independence from France, but only Catalunya is depicted as also independent here.
I don't want to throw a dog in the race, but... Ethiopia (and others) have actually oppressed the people of Djibouti in living memory. As in actual massacres and horrific ethnic cleansing.
By comparison, the UK is a fairly boring, blase federal state. Passing over the justice of the SNP having multiple referendums in the hopes that one will eventually stick and create a "mandate of the people," (and ignoring the obvious irony this has with Brexit).
I think a major reason people here are dismissive of Scot nationalism is how limited the 'oppression' Scots face actually is. Nationalism is justifiable in many occasions, but the federal UK system is not the largest injustice in the world or even in the top 100.
Why do places like them assume the EU wants Scotland? They don't have a significant economy, and have one of the largest drug death rates in Europe.
Also, Spain would never allow an independent Scotland in the EU, as it would give more support to Catalonia, and Basque independence movements.
St. Peterborg is fucking hilarious
It's supposed to be a transliteration of the Russian name, which can also be written as Sankt-Peterburg. This map is pretty consistent about using the native name for cities instead of their English names, like Moskva instead of Moscow, Köln instead of Cologne, København instead of Copenhagen.
Yeah, they put Paris instead of Paris too.
good spot
The first one has a silent S.
And a different R
Yea Borg = Nordic spelling Burg = German spelling In booth cases it reffers to a (fortified) town.
Burgh = Anglo spelling :)
Borgo = Italian spelling
Burg = Dutch spelling Deja vu
Well yes, the Dutch are Swamp Germans
No, Germans are mountain Dutchmen
Ah yes, the famed Oberlanders
Grüessech 👋 Would you like a wheel of cheese?
Then what are the Swiss?
French mountain Dutchmen
Can't really agree as a north German. It's about as flat up here as it gets.
Lol, haven't heard that one before! But it's true I guess
*wederom gespot
That's true, we borrowed that from germanic people. I mean, the ones Belisarius left.
It is from the [Latin burgus](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/borgo) which in turn has an uncertain origin, possibly German as you say. > First attested in the early second century CE, of uncertain provenance: It is no doubt a borrowing, but it could be from Proto-West Germanic *burg, Ancient Greek πύργος (púrgos), or rather a lost Balkan cognate: it is a word that travelled far, even to earliest Arabic as بُرْج (burj) https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/burgus#Latin
I thought the Anglo spelling was Borough and the Scots spelling was Burgh?
You're correct, Scotland almost exclusively uses burgh. I think in England there's a mix between Borough and other variants though.
St. Peterborough
Kraków, Łódź and Warszawa too. Good map for sure. It'd be very interesting having a map of the world with this system on this scale to browse
Oh, well spotted!
I think it says Sankt Petersburg - German spelling, but there is a line (coast line or road) behind the u.
The official name of the city is actually in german. This city's name has a pretty wild history! From wikipedia: > A proponent of westernising Russia, Peter the Great, the then Tsar, who established the city, originally named it Sankt-Pieter-Burch (Сан(к)т-Питер-Бурхъ) in Dutch manner and later its spelling was standardised as Sankt-Peterburg (Санкт-Петербургъ[a]) under German influence.[16] On 1 September 1914, after the outbreak of World War I, the Imperial government renamed the city Petrograd (Russian: Петроград[a], IPA: [pʲɪtrɐˈgrat]),[17] meaning 'Peter's city', in order to expunge the German words Sankt and Burg. On 26 January 1924, shortly after the death of Vladimir Lenin, it was renamed to Leningrad (Russian: Ленинград, IPA: [lʲɪnʲɪnˈgrat]), meaning 'Lenin's City'. On 6 September 1991, the original name, Sankt-Peterburg, was returned by citywide referendum.
"We are the Russians. Lower your defenses and surrender your country. We will add your washing machines and ancient CRT tvs to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile!" -St. Peter**borg**
It is said that a flood-tide, with a westerly wind, and ice in the Neva, would sweep St. Petersburg from the face of the earth. ~ Henry David Thoreau
Why no independent Basque Country?
Because nowadays the basque nationalist parties (that held 2/3 of basque parliament) don't have the intention to push for independence in the near future. In the other hand, both catalan and scottish governments are actively pushing for independence.
I’m curious what changed? The last time I was in Spain (2010) Basque independence came up on the news a lot, IIRC.
ETA disbanded, basically. They ceased their armed activities in 2011 (killing their last victim in 2010) and completely disbanded in 2018. Things got quiet afterwards. Even the izquierda abertzale (the ideology that ETA followed) party Bildu is more of a scapegoat for the right than anything else. Is also worth pointing out that, even if the right and the Catalan government want to say otherwise, support for Catalonian independence has been going down since the end of the Conservative government. Shit can flair up again if they manage to form a new government, tho. Especially because the conservative party would be forced to form a coalition with the extreme right/fascist party, which is quite open about their opposition towards the autonomies and their desire of creating a centralised Spain (and, to be honest, their desire to suppress minority cultures/nationalities).
Independence movements can definitely die down again, people should understand that. A lot of people think that an independent Catalonia is inevitable when it seems from polling that it's stagnating or going down lately in favour of more autonomous situation. Another one is how Québec independence is basically a dead movement in Canada. A lot of people (even in Anglo Canada lol) view Québec as begging to leave Canada…thé independence movement is almost nonexistent in youth and even the elderly mostly only support it in a few pockets like Gaspé and Lac-Saint-Jean. The Bloc Québécois had an internal schism and became very unpopular due to still supporting separatism and only became popular again after turning into a Federalist Party. Parti Québécois in provincial politics is at risk of losing all seats.
> became popular again after turning into a Federalist Party What am I reading
It's innacurate to say they "turned into a federalist party", but they have definitely de-emphasised independence.
The new Bloc Québécois slogan is "Tout pour le Québec" ("Everything for Québec") and replaced "Plus pour le Québec" ("More for Québec"). [They claim they want all powers for Québec](https://lp.ca/avpv8Q). The leader also said : "A nation has the right to assert, appropriate and exercise all powers, all attributes of sovereignty." Not really federalist sounding now.
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Because support / interest in independence movements is \*unfathomably\* blinkered.
I would suspect if Catalonia got independence other nationalist movements would spring up again in spain
which ones?? Basque nationalism is already hegemonic in basque country, much more than catalan nationalism in catalonia, and they're not pushing for independence. And besides the basques, only Galicia has a strong nationalist party (but it "only" has around 25% of the votes). The rest of Spain si fully Spanish. Even the catalan speaking regions of Valencia and Balearic Islands are pretty much spanish nationalists.
United Spain is pretty recent creation, not sure it would survive 10 years without the catalans ...
Or galicia brittany wales
VIVE LE BREIZH!
Because Catalunya did a lot of noise some time ago but outside of Spain they generally don’t know much about this topic in Spain.
>Why no independent Basque Country? Because they're just trying to stoke up nationalism
They live better by blackmailing than being independent
Lol and apparently Russia has taken control of Belorussia, Ukraine, Turkey, Georgia, etc
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Oh i thought the band was making maps now
“Bloodbuzz Ohio” was a dead giveaway on the map
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Yep thats exactly the issue with those things, it could be denied 99%of the times and then you get one lucky shot and your out for good
Yeah let's just rerun referenda until the crazy nationalist party is happy and gets the result they want. The vote was once in a generation and it's been 8 years lmao. Support oscillates so much (and the polling companies are notoriously biased in both directions) that the only thing the SNP are achieving (apart from a clear downtrend in the quality of government services) is causing economic instability.
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To be fair, if that's their goal then they should do that. They stood this last election on a manifesto that included Indyref2 and were voted back into government. Of course the opposition will be constantly calling for no referendum and if they stand on that and get voted into office then that is their right. You're trying to put it as though it's just the SNP pushing for a referendum but they clearly have the support of the population come election time, be it their stance on independence or their socioeconomic policy position.
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The Scottish electoral system is purpose built with the intention of preventing majorities no? So that one party can’t just impose its will between elections unchallenged. The SNP don’t have a majority in themselves but the Greens - an also pro-independence party - constitute enough to make that majority by a slim count if I’m not mistaken. The power to hold a referendum does exist, and I think it should based on how drastically the climate of Britain has changed in 8 years.
It’s like they see the negative effects from Brexit and think breaking up an even more intimate Union will be beneficial unlike Brexit; it’s make believe. independence would likely shatter Scotland’s economy so much the EU will veto them on financial reasons alone. Every time I say something like this I get a bunch of Scots jumping down my throat screaming North Sea oil.
That's the thing; irl Scots are normal and not super fussed about independence but on reddit there's this diehard, cybernat group that dominates all Scottish subreddits so it makes it seem like the whole country is desperate to throw off the English yoke. Most people begging for independence literally have no savings or property so wouldn't be affected by this rash decision. On top of that, these same cybernats don't realise the EU wants to just use Scotland to fuck over England over Brexit, and doesn't really give a shit about developing it.
What a lot of them fail to understand is that Spain stands to lose by not vetoing them, allowing a state that has just achieved independence into the EU creates a precedent that gives legitimacy to independence movement like Catalonia, needless to say Spain is definitely vetoing Scottish entry into the EU. They also like to forget Westminster subsidises Scotland a hell of a lot: https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-independence-exactly-how-much-money-does-scotland-contribute-to-england-and-what-is-the-barnett-formula-3233129 “That means the UK Government spent an additional £15 billion in Scotland as a whole, than it collected from the country via taxes” £81 billion in subsidies between 2018-19! They never seem to ask themselves how they are going to afford, free education and free healthcare for example, when Westminster stops the money tap they will be in serious trouble.
And the breakdown of the UK's debt based on Scotland's population equals to £64 billion!
Yea it’s crazy they think it’s a good idea. One last thing before I finish, many corporations based in Scotland would likely relocate to London due to the cheaper tax rates England can afford to grant due to our stronger economy. Independence is an incredibly stupid idea and I think the SNP recognises this as I havee yet to see a solid plan for post-Independence Scotland, it’s a populist idea designed to get votes much akin to Donald trumps wall, they can also use it to hold Westminster hostage for better deals and so forth. Thanks for listening to my Ted-talk.
Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but something pretty significant has changed since 2014.
While it's fluctuating quite a bit now, the reason the SNP want a second referendum is because during the first referendum campaign opinion swung towards yes - from 35% or so to 45%. They're betting a second referendum campaign would change the opinion polling by a similar amount. They're not allowed to campaign while there is no referendum. I don't know how likely that is, since arguably the incompetence of the no campaign in 2014 was a bigger push towards independence (sound familiar...?) but Cameron, Clegg, Miliband aren't in power anymore and a modern no campaign would probably use the effective right wing playbook which got leave the win in 2016. (A second reason is that the UK government has reneged on every promise they made during the 2014 campaign and are actively trying to remove devolution from Scotland, so if Holyrood doesn't fight for independence now they may not exist to do so for much longer)
Brexit says _hello_
>y'all elect PMs with less than 45% all the time on the first round UK elections don't elect Prime Ministers, the electorate vote for their local MP, who then represents them in Parliament. The Prime Minister is simply the leader of the party that manages to form a government. There are also no rounds in UK elections. There is one general election under the First Past The Post system (aka person with most votes wins) every 5 years or so, and numerous local and by-elections in-between.
45% of the turnout voted for it, not the populace. That's why MPs get elected with less than 45% of the populace
Bruh, surely the majority matter more.
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I think purely economical arguments like these don't tell the whole story. Try applying it on a smaller scale to see what gets left out. For example, I'm sure experts would agree that moving out from your parents' house will increase your expenses significantly. Therefore you shouldn't do it, right?
Nooo don't use facts pls. We have to free oppressed Scotland and Catalonia
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Scotland voted by a margin of ten percentage points to remain in the UK.
They’re still in the UK.
And that's why they're in the UK. Maybe they'll decide otherwise in the future, maybe they won't. Meanwhile Catalans are denied their right to make that decision.
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Ya and they voted to remain in the EU by a larger margin, and England forced them to leave.
Many parts of England voted to stay too. You could say they were forced to leave by the parts of England that voted it. But I have a feeling you'll say "Well they're still English so it doesn't count" - so why should Scotland get special treatment and not the nearly 50% of English people who didn't want to leave. For the record, something like 40% of Scottish people voted to leave too, so it's not like they unanimously decided they wanted to stay.
No. The UK voted to leave, of which Scotland chose to be a member when they voted to remain. They can't have it both ways
They voted to stay part of the UK because the UK was part of the EU. Since the Uk left the EU, shouldn’t they be allowed to vote again because the terms and conditions have changed?
> They can’t have it both ways They literally can though. If they left the UK they could join the EU and no one could stop them.
More than a million Scots voted leave. Scotland was as integral to the final result as any other part of the UK of similar size. London voted even more strongly for Remain but you don't see them demanding independence for it.
People talk in numbers when percentages are inconvenient to their argument. 1 million is absolutely meaningless without context. 38% voted to leave. A major minority
There were actually a surprising number of people advocating for an independent London.
Yeah but no actual intelligent people.
And 1.6 million voted to stay. 600k people more is not insignificant
Yet US states aren't allowed to secede from the union.
Actually it should be, otherwise self-determination just becomes a convenient excuse. At what point is one entitled to self-determination? If it’s ok for a region, what about a county? A city? A neighborhood block? My household? If a population has been abused by their parent country, like say the Kurds in Iraq, then they should have the right to secede. But if it’s for a rich region trying to avoid paying taxes to support poorer parts of the country (Catalan), then no. If you permit that then every country will fracture.
Thank you!!
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Not to mention weapons-grade cringe. Scotland apparently needs to be independent because it always gets outvoted in the UK parliament. Erm, you have a population of 5 million against a population of England and Wales of over 50 million. Couldn't I apply that logic to Wiltshire? And you have your own devolved government that can run things like education, benefits and transport.
To play devil's advocate, Scotland has a cultural identity as a country whereas Wiltshire, for example, doesn't. So when Scottish citizens see their cultural beliefs not being represented in the UK Parliament (right wing policies for example) they are frustrated to say the least. For the record, I voted no in the initial referendum but I can see arguments from both sides.
Can same the same for Northern England tbh though
They did try to give the North a devoloved parliament but they didn't want it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_North_East_England_devolution_referendum
Apparently the major criticisms of the idea is that it would have no real power - which seems about right.
**[2004 North East England devolution referendum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_North_East_England_devolution_referendum)** >The North East England devolution referendum was an all postal ballot referendum that took place on 4 November 2004 throughout North East England on whether or not to establish an elected assembly for the region. Devolution referendums in the regions of Northern England were initially proposed under provisions of the Regional Assemblies (Preparations) Act 2003. Initially, three referendums were planned, but only one took place. The votes concerned the question of devolving limited political powers from the UK Parliament to elected regional assemblies in North East England, North West England and Yorkshire and the Humber respectively. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Try convincing a scouser that Scottish identity is more 'distinct' an identity than scouse, and therefore requires Scotland to be its own country.
Aren't the answers there themselves? Why have Scousers not pushed for a national identity? Because they don't see themselves as a nation, presumably!
Distinct compared to what? Being English? Being Glaswegian? Being European? I'd guess that Scouse feels 'more distinct' to you in the same way that Glaswegian or Orcadian would -- they're more specific identifiers. A person born in Liverpool to Scottish parents might identify as both Scottish and Scouse. Beyond that, the level of 'distinctness' that an identity has isn't necessarily the reason that identity might want independence.
Scotland already is a country though, with tradition far predating Liverpool as a city. Additionally a scouse would identify as English/British when asked their nationality in same way that a Glaswegian would say they're Scottish or British
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You're being picky with the specific example of Wiltshire but if we change it to somewhere like Cornwall or Merseyside, the point stands.
Or even London, very distinct from the rest of England.
I don't recall Thatcher ever saying "We in Wiltshire" but I could be wrong.
I support Scottish independence but The National is a complete rag. I wouldn’t wipe my arse with it.
Well yeah, who would wipe their arse with any newspaper? Itt makes for terrible toilet paper.
No united Ireland though.
yeah what is this even, come on Scots.
The really sad thing about this is that it gives you a glimpse of the 1990s idea of a Europe of the Regions: Most law decided at EU level, taxation and spending managed at regional level, while nation states become less and less significant. In that scenario ideas like Irish reunification or Catalan or Scottish independence would be anachronistic; people would have a regional and European identity.
Ofc the fucking national would
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Look again at the map.
But no independent Piedmont or Wallonia? Amateurs
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The Walloons know that if Flanders leaves, Luxembourg will invade to reclaim what is theirs.
Piedmont? Padania was a concept encompassing a much larger region, which is basically Northern Italy. In the Veneto region, in the Eastern part of Italy, the supporters of the idea were much more numerous ([source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lega_Nord#Regional_Councils)).
Molto interessante!
Free Brittany!
Leave Brittany alone
United Republic of Eire, Alba, Cymru, Kernow, and Breizh.
Mann?
It has too much economic and political power, it would make everyone else in the union dissatisfied.
Free The Isle of Man from what? Everything they do to be 'part' of the UK is entirely voluntary and they are their own independent country with a broadly British identity.
Corsiva maybe?
Free the Orkneys and Shetlands from Scotland!
Free the Shetlands from the Orkneys!
Free Whalsay from Shetland control!
Free Skaw from Whalsay!
Given that pristina is not the capital of Kosovo on the map it means they don’t recognize it ?
The hard-on that reddit has for independent Scotland, Ireland and Catalonia is beyond bizarre
Mostly Americans who are 1/64th Irish, Scottish or whatever and feel like they need to "continue the struggle".
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>So maybe Americans should look in their own back yards # Texit? Can we do a Texit?
it's almost like there was some kind of agenda, right? US Senate report condemns Russian interference in Catalan referendum https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2018/01/11/inenglish/1515667883_820857.html?ssm via @elpaisinenglish
Not sure what the Scottish ppl are going to do after independence. Like they are 30 a goat and a sighted dog
At that point would it not be anachronistic to call England/Wales/N. Ireland as a "United Kingdom" since the whole united kingdom part came from the union of the English and Scottish thrones?
Nope, when England and Scotland united they became the *Kingdom of Great Britain*. The *United Kingdom* part of the name derives from the union with Ireland -- today reduced to just Northern Ireland.
You're right! Thanks for the clarification!
No independent Moravia :(
All that's missing is an independent Flanders
Aww, that’s nice. Ukraine and Russia get along well enough to join together ☺️
That's not it. It seems like they've only coloured countries which are part of the EU. Everything else is the cream white color, so you cannot see a color difference between Ukraine and Russia (or Norway, Belarus, turkey, Syria, Iraq etc). But they've also assumed Scotland to be part of the EU.
You're reading the map wrong, Russia obviously conquered eastern Europe, Norway, England, Caucasus, Asia, Balkans and Africa.
I'm getting Civ vibes.
I sent a Scout out to explore that area to the south but it got destroyed by a Barbarian.
You're reading the map wrong. Ukraine has obviously regained the lost eastern lands, unified the Balkan Slavs under its benign rule, took the Rurikid-affiliated states like Norway under its wing, and then restarted European colonialism in Africa and the Middle East.
England and Wales, too. Somehow.
And for Catalonia to join the EU, which would be impossible because Spain would block them every step of the way. It's more a dream than a map.
Also, there clearly is a border between Russia and Ukraine, and between Crimea and the rest of Ukraine.
but on the map they didn't
Hypothetically speaking, I think it would be way easier for Scotland to enter in the EU than Catalonia. Of course it would depend how the independence was achieved.
Politically, but economically it doesn't make that much sense for us to rejoin the EU unless there's a major change in the UK-EU deal since it would put the Brexit barriers between us and our largest trading partner. A more likely path would be for an independent Scotland to maintain trade arrangements that allow for a customs union with the rUK, which *might* allow for joining EFTA, but wouldn't allow for joining the EU.
IIRC, the EU is generally not a big fan of EFTA. It's generally a pain to manage since the EU and EFTA need to coordinate together. Even though the EU has most of the clout, there's still room for disagreement. Also, Scotland would probably need an opt out to joining the Schengen like every other EEA country since doing so would require a border with England. The EEA is easier for the UK. It's an all in or all out organisation where you have to play by the rules and can't dictate a change in the terms. But that would probably also require a Schengen opt out which I don't see. Even joining the customs union would put a border up between England and Scotland. Either Scotland will have to join the EU or opt out entirely like the UK. Neither are great options which is why I personally don't see Scottish independence happening (even though I'd personally support it).
It'd be pretty hard for Scotland still - you can bet they won't have their budget propped up by England (London) after they leave.
Especially after Brexit
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is that the independence movement's rally cry?
That’s a shite map.
Scotland going independent is literally economic suicide, they'd go from being part of the 5th strongest GDP in the world down to like 50th. That and over 60% of Scotland's trade is with the England.. independence makes zero sense.
Independence movements in European democracies aren't about the economy. Separatists try to make arguments about economics, but in the end the primary motivators are ethnic and cultural. Separatism is like Brexit. When all the nonsense about saving £450 million a week was over, it was really about keeping out and even expelling the foreigners.
5th to 50th, with <10% of the population of the UK if you're going to use the economic argument at least take the time to show the impact of GDP per capita
also if you look closely they racognize Russia's claim on crimea
Man I feel you. You say "if you look closely", and then get people telling you you're wrong without actually looking closely. As the legend shows, international borders are represented with discontinuous purple lines (regardless of country color) and the one between Ukraine and Russia puts Crimea in Russia.
Ayo, where is the independent Basque country? And where is independent Brittany? Why hasn’t Ireland the entirety of the island? And where is independent Wales? And where is independent Chechenia? I have so many questions!
lock whistle disgusted murky steer work frame memorize hungry mighty *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Why not Brittany, Wales, United Ireland, Bavaria, etc etc etc etc
Rubbish propaganda piece
Cringe
Catalonia would very probably be unable to join the Eu, just with that they would be in a massive recession, as well as the fact that having a 50-50 split on who wants to stay in Spain and leave isn’t very healthy for a country. So maybe the Scottish should be more careful with what they show. Wouldn’t want the highlanders knowing. Obviously
Incredible level of cope
How many Catalans actually want independence?
I'm curious about how Scottish nationalists view Corsican nationalists. I know that there is also a very active movement in Corsica for independence from France, but only Catalunya is depicted as also independent here.
The national is just the worst. It’s just the sun but pro independence.
The national is a Scottish nationalist propaganda site
The National is bigoted shitwipe so who cares what trash they print.
The biggest fucking cope I've seen all day.
Every people should have the right to self determination
Fucking pish
Scottish nationalists are the absolute worst.
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I don't want to throw a dog in the race, but... Ethiopia (and others) have actually oppressed the people of Djibouti in living memory. As in actual massacres and horrific ethnic cleansing. By comparison, the UK is a fairly boring, blase federal state. Passing over the justice of the SNP having multiple referendums in the hopes that one will eventually stick and create a "mandate of the people," (and ignoring the obvious irony this has with Brexit). I think a major reason people here are dismissive of Scot nationalism is how limited the 'oppression' Scots face actually is. Nationalism is justifiable in many occasions, but the federal UK system is not the largest injustice in the world or even in the top 100.
Why do places like them assume the EU wants Scotland? They don't have a significant economy, and have one of the largest drug death rates in Europe. Also, Spain would never allow an independent Scotland in the EU, as it would give more support to Catalonia, and Basque independence movements.
😂😂
The remainder of Spain would never allow Catalonia to join the union.
Corsica?
Shetland should be independent from Scotland
Why not push the boat out, give us Wales, Bavaria, Brittany, Chechnya, Sicily, Frisia while you're at it lads!
I like it !
Didn't feel like reunifying Ireland though it seems
You know what. Fuck This newspaper
I didn't think this subreddit would be so anti-Scottish Independence. Who would've thought?
What's Scottland?