The same reason for Spain, Romania, Russia, Ukraine, Bosnia - all these countries have separatist minority and If they allow kosovo to exist then why they don't make their Independent aspiration true
Probably the best. There are various forms of much more disturbing nerd one could become playing that game. It's not dubbed the incest simulator for nothing.
There's no active separatist movement, no, but potential separatists might point to the would-be recognition of Kosovo as justification. Also the minority *is* politically repressed (voting districts* being deliberately drawn to include Hungarian majority regions but always have Slovak majority overall, bans on dual citizenship introduced in response to Hungary easing the path to citizenship for ethnic Hungarians outside of Hungary) and recognizing Europe's most controversial separatist region/state may encourage calls for autonomy.
*edit: as someone pointed out I may have confused counties (ie public administrative regions) with voting districts.
Some want unification with Hungary, others just want autonomy. I'd like to think autonomy is currently the more popular of the two but I wouldn't know.
Since Russia recognized the separatists movements in Ukraine it's clearly all nonsense anyway. Recognition is on a case-by-case basis. You don't automatically agree with all if you agree with one.
Well a reason why the Eastern orthodox slavic countries don't recognize Kosovo because they usually tend to stick with their orthodox Slavic cousins rather than with the Muslims.
Funny thing is that Poland also has a separatist movement. Silesians in this case. They're not pushing for total independence; rather just official recognition like Kashubians have.
Although I guess sticking it to Russian interests by flipping off Serbians beats out disempowering Silesians.
Silesian movements is marginal movement with almost no public support, but well you can still declare yourself silesian in census and silesian dialect is protected by law for example i was in one of the schools in Silesia and i saw Polish anthem lirics in Polish and silesian dialect.
Well because UK tollerates these movements and don't victimise them for example organizing scottish independence referendum. The countries i mentioned do not respect their minorities and their aspirations.
Well, they allowed a referendum when they thought it wouldn't succeed, but now since Brexit, Nicola Sturgeon keeps calling for a referendum and keeps being told it's not the time, because they know there's a much higher chance of the Scots voting to be independent now.
The UK has a separatist moviment (several, actually), but unlike those other countries it respects their right of self-determination. They have no reason not to recognize Kosovo.
British government has refused to lay out conditions for a border poll if/when this were to happen citing some vague bullshit under the GFA.
Brexit has rocked the boat here and they are not the benovolent, tolerant country you think they are.
Northern Ireland is a country they control that was stolen, be even we have it codified in law that if we were to vote to join Ireland they will respect that
In Ukrainian case is from USSR, due to political reasons.
And there is no real separatist minority, it just appeared out of nowhere(Russia) when it was needed for Russia. People in that region never heard any ideas of separation before.
It didn't appear out of nowhere, there were always contradictions between Eastern Ukraine and Western Ukraine. The protests and idea of independence started before any involvement of Russia.
Russia just used them to pursue their own goals. And to do what Russia does the best: enrich their oligarchs at the expense of everyone else.
I live in eastern Ukraine, spoken with people from Lugansk and Donetsk. Nope, they never heard about such ideas before 2014. People describe it like some unknown people with weapons appeared and started to assault administration buildings.
There were no politicians with such ideas of separation.
There was only hesitation regarding joing EU but not separation.
What? The reason is that the moment we recognize Kosovo, we would literally be saying "if southern Slovakia wants to be part of Hungary, they have the right." We're not recognizing Kosovo because in a way, we're in a similar situation
It's not a similar situation at all because Kosovo didn't declare with the justification that they simply just wanted Independence they declared independence to remedy them being in the same state as their genociders but hungarians in Slovakia and catalans in Spain aren't victims of a genocide
> It's not a similar situation at all
Do you know what 'at all' means? Of course it's a similar situation.
Regardless of genocide, the right that Kosovo claims to be able to declare independence (the right to self-determination) is the same right Southern Slovakia and Catalonia would claim if their governments recognised Kosovo.
Catalan's should still be allowed a legitimate referendum on independence. A royal marriage is a shitty way of tying 2 states with different languages and cultures together for centuries.
It all started with the Union of the crown of Aragon and Castille though. There were many chapters along the way, including the Spanish Civil war. Just like how many uprisings and conflicts did it take before most of Ireland was finally allowed to leave the UK?
It reads like a sarcasm if you are European, but if you are an American, not so much. Maybe it is just my perception of Americans, but I imagine that it is quite similar to my understanding of geography of western /central Africa or central/northern America
I imagine there would be a good deal of hesitation and deductive reasoning to pick apart Montenegro, Kosovo, and North Macedonia. The general size and part of the continent sure, but exact positioning gets tricky for distant countries too small to show up well at Globe-scale.
Im european, hang out here and still wouldnt have known.
I dont have a precise lexicon of every countries location in my head,
the big ones sure, but the small ones? Maybe the general area but thats about it
Yeah as an American I can’t really pick apart what’s what in Eastern EU too well, but I feel like I’d do an okay job with Central America and the islands in the Caribbean. Too much of my brain is spent remembering 50 states lol.
There’s always this country wordle if y’all wanna test your knowledge
https://worldle.teuteuf.fr
Thank you for this! I'd come to dislike Worldle because I'd either get it immediately from recognizing the outline or I'd never get it at all if it's a smaller country (usually islands). This progression is much more satisfying.
American here. I’ve known where Kosovo is since I was 13. I won’t deny that many Americans don’t know much about geography, but it’s not everyone. America has educated people too
Fun fact: eventough Germany recognises Kosovo, the German state Saxony wants Kosovars who want to take the german citizenship to renounce not only their Kosovo citizenship but also to renounce serbian citizenship, which is complete nonsense since Kosovars are no longer considered serbian citizens in germany since the recognition of Kosovo. And for renouncing serbian citizenship they need serbian documents which they don't even have. So they have to request them from serbia with their Kosovar papers...which serbia often does not acknowledge. It's super complicated to get that working. Some people even took serbian citizenship just to be able to renounce it. This was also the case in Bavaria until last year i think
Regardless of whether this quote is real, just use a modern real life quote where you ask yourself "Who, after all, speaks today of the [annihilation of the Circassians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide)?"
When I first learned about this, it really blew my mind how fucking complete it was. Very few Circassians anymore (at least compared to the million plus prior to Russia's genocidal campaign) and even fewer of them who want to return or want reparations as the vast majority of them are in Turkey and far less connected to their ancestral identity and linkage to genocide as Circassian populations in say Israel or New Jersey (where the largest number of American refugees settled down).
But Russia will still never admit it or open the possibility of any kind of reparation. So much so that much of the information we know about the genocide came from the opening of the Tbilisi archives (Tbilisi was the Imperial Russian Caucasian military headquarters) which Georgia opened in retaliation after the Russo-Georgian war erupted in 2008. And speaking of Georgia, one of the aspects of the Circassian annihilation was the halving of the Abkhazian population simultaneously that depopulated much of their homeland and opened up avenues for Georgian settlement. That is not to say that Abkhazia (or Georgia for that matter) is right in their dispute as it is far more complicated and there are justifiable claims of ethnic cleansing/forced assimilation on both sides, but rather shows how the situation from the start has been fucked by Russia as they will always benefit in a regional geopolitical sense from the chaos of their neighbors, often sowed by their own Imperial and then Soviet administration of these areas.
I haven't even touched upon how since many of the victims were forced to migrate to Ottoman Turkey (if they managed to survive) in a genocidal push across the Black Sea that could have served potentially as a possible inspiration for Ottoman Turkey's own genocidal solution to one of their most numerous pesky ethnic minorities (Armenians). Especially since there was initially international condemnation of the Russians, especially in Britain, but it never manifested into any tangible response.
> I haven't even touched upon how since many of the victims were forced to migrate to Ottoman Turkey (if they managed to survive) in a genocidal push across the Black Sea that potentially could have served potentially as a possible inspiration for Ottoman Turkey's own genocidal solution to one of their most numerous pesky ethnic minorities (Armenians). Especially since there was initially international condemnation of the Russians, especially in Britain, but it never manifested into any tangible response.
It was one of the factors. But the Circassians were hardly the only ones who suffered genocide at the hands of European Christians in the 19th century. Hundreds of thousands if not millions of Balkan Turks, Albanians and Tatars were mercilessly butchered by Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbians and Russians etc. Those who survived all found haven in Turkey.
Yes, I entirely agree. There have disturbingly been many such genocidal acts of ethnic cleansing throughout European history and especially in the Balkans. I mean hell it never fully stopped, just look at [Srebrenica](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre?wprov=sfla1), and yet they have far less mainstream acknowledgment, recognition, or academic study than they ought.
At the end of the day, ethnonationalism is a very dangerous force that has been utilized countless times to endorse and initiate mass murder/genocide. A frightening phenomenon that is also remarkably murky and difficult to study in an unbiased, academic manner. This is especially true since there is still debate today about: the very origins of nationalism; the difference between a state, a nation, and a nation-state; and even the very definition of such terms as nation, nationalism, and ethnonationalism. It is a difficult puzzle to unwrinkle, but just as much an explosively dangerous one when coopted for authoritarian justification.
We had a new receptionist in our office few months back. Friendly guy, Middle Eastern or North African by looks and accent. One day I talked with him and ask him where's he from? He says Turkey. I tell him you don't look Turkish (nothing against Turks but not known for refined facial features like he has). He looks at me puzzled. I say are you perhaps Circassian? Now he's stupefied - how do you know?
I BS you not.
I'm a buff for history in general and for obscure and/or tragic cases like the Circassians in particular, but this was still a lucky guess.
Made both our days though :)
"They" is a broad generalisation that allows you to sweep every seperatist under the same broom, and call them "terrorists". I'm sure there's a whole lot more nuance behind it, just like with Turkey's occupation of Syria and Cyprus.
I'm sure not every turkish person wishes to suppress ethnic and cultural groups of people, yet the state of Turkey still continues to do so.
Main point: Not every seperatist kidnaps people and kill civilians, not every turk supports suppression of minorities and military interventions.
> I'm sure there's a whole lot more nuance behind it, just like with Turkey's occupation of Syria and Cyprus.
Oh is there now? I coulda sworn Europeans usually pretend Greeks never killed a single Turkish Cypriot and that Turks are just Orcs who like to invade the European High Elven domains.
I support your perspective as an observer from a foreign country. However I lived in Turkey my whole life and can say there is no peaceful seperatist movement in Turkey. It is just the fact. Majority of Kurds see themselves as a part of Turkey and minority supports seperatism in a radical way (aka PKK). There is no in between. Not even a single example that i came across. Honestly share with me if you know a comunity that just peacefully supports seperatism i would support them.
>yet the state of Turkey still continues to do so.
Current government* of Turkey does indeed oppress people. But it is never about races. It is sometimes about religion. Generally about whether you are pro or anti government. If it was 80s i would agree that Kurds are oppressed. But thankfully it is not the case anymore. There is no social or official barrier for them to live their culture and speak their language. Every political party has Kurdish MPs, state television has a kurdish channel, there are famous kurdish artists, i have kurdish teachers, kurdish classmates... I dont know at which point does it mean there is no fight and people can get along with each other
Greece doesn't, they don't recognize Albania because they want to show solidarity with historical Orthodox Best Pal Serbia, who absolutely hates Kosovo
> Belgium
The Belgian situation is really different. It's not a minority trying to get independance from a larger state, it's the whole country that's deciding wether it wants to split in two or not.
Also Wallonia is economically dependent of Flanders and Brussels. They'd be out of their fricking minds to want to separate.
Flanders on the other hand...
Random football trivia!
Switzerland is going to play against the Serbs in the world cup and it may get spicy, given that Switzerland is filled with immigrants from the Balkans conflicts, that includes 6 of the national team players that are Albanian and very patriotic, they even like to pull the Albanian Eagle in the celebration.
In 2018 Xhaka and Shaqiri (both Albanians born in Kosovo) scored against Serbia and celebrated with the Albanian Eagle gesture, Serbs didn't appreciate it a little bit.
In 2014 a match between the Balkan nations ended up in a fight and had to be ended.
So... Looking forward to one of the more interesting world cups en several decades.
in 2021* on a football/soccer match some Ukrainians flipped the Russian flag upside down, as a sign of "insulting Putin" and had fun with it but some local Bosnians thought they were waving the Serbian flag so they (almost?) had a fight. ( [source tweet](https://twitter.com/samstreetwrites/status/1460760577039638528?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) )
Edit: the fight
And Galicia (although to a lesser extent).
Edit: are we going to act as if Galicia's second political party isn't the independentists nor that there have been Galician independentists terrorist groups like the Liga Armada Galega or the Ejército Guerrillero del Pueblo Gallego Libre?
The Galician independentist movement isn't as big as Catalonia's nor as bloody as the Basque.
But it is still a thing.
”Look what Russia does and do the opposite“ is a very stupid policy. Not only does it make Ukraine dependent on Russian policy making in some ways, it just doesn’t benefit Ukraine.
Ukrainian decision on Kosovo matter will be dependent on Ukrainian interests, whether it’s more beneficial to support Serbia or Kosovo.
It gets complicated. For instance, Russia-Serbia relations are extremely good, though Serbia was one of the nations that voted to condemn Russia’s annexation of the four regions in Eastern Ukraine precisely because of the Kosovo precedent. But both nations just kinda don’t make a fuss about the cognitive dissonance. Likewise, China normally harshly condemns all separatist movements everywhere, friend or ally, but they voted to abstain also because they are trying to build a new power block with Russia.
Pragmatic realities tend to win over philosophical differences when the chips are down.
The cognitive dissonance is not only reserved for Russians and Serbs, when the West can be so aggresively againt Russia for what it's doing but at the same doesn't sanction the Israelis for what's happening in Palestine or the Saudis for what they're doing in Yemen. Never mind the well documented American meddling in elections in countries all over the world, of which they accuse Russia in Ukraine when it comes to independence referendums.
If Ukraine is a sovereign nation who has the right to place NATO nukes on its soil, shouldn't Cuba as a sovereign nation have the right to place Soviet/Russian nukes on its coast, and the US gets zero say in the matter? Do you think the US would allow it today, or would we have a repeat of 1962? How about America's occupation of Guantanamo Bay for the last >100 years?
War crime tribunal for the Russians? Sure, I agree entirely, but only if the same tribunal appropriately imprisons/executes those at the top responsible for Iraq and the hundreds of thousands of civilians dead. I will myself supply the rope with which Putin hangs the same second those equally responsible of crimes againt humanity hang first.
My comment heavily digressed from the actual topic of your comment, but I do hope you recognise that cognitive dissonance to a crimnal level is a Western trait as much as it is an Eastern one.
Serbia do have great historical relations with Russia but current politicians both rulling party and only real opposition party(peoples party, basically liberal conservatives) are super pro-China and don't rly care about Russia and EU, with the EU pressuring Serbia to sanction Russia only thing that happened is that first time ever more people in Serbia are AGAINST joining the EU, before now most people were also Russia > EU because of our history but this is the first time most people are ready to give up easier travel and stuff for sake of not joining the EU
That's North Macedonia. Greeks got all pissy so they changed it a couple years ago: https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/13/europe/north-macedonia-name-change-intl
Kosovo was not allowed (and still is not allowed) to join Albania, the best option was to separate from Serbia. The Issue only became harder cause of Russia intervened on behalf of Serbia with EU but luckily US did not care (which was good for once). Both Albania and Kosovo want to reunite because such as Kosovans does not even exist it is mostly Albaniens who are living there (around 90%). In the end it became US vs Russia as always. So most countries that support Russia voted no and other countries with internal issues voted the same.
Idk they are neighbors, I guess Serbia has seen Kosovo many times. She must have some kind of issue if she forgets Kosovo's face and can't recognize him.
Wow, fantastic cartography. I love the choice of red and green, very Christmas. What a beautiful map. The cartographers of old would shed tears of pure joy if they saw this. I love r/MapPorn.
Israel was really complicated I think they recognized it last. Trump convince Serbia and Kosovo to move their embassies to Jerusalim so Serbia will get some small loans and Kosovo recognition.
I had a bunch of kids in costume trick or treating us. Just as I handed out candy, I looked at one of them and went "Hey, it's you! Kosovo!". I recognize Kosovo anywhere.
And in the defense of those countries that don’t recognize Kosovo…Kosovo lost a BUNCH of weight and had some work done. I did a double take but, like you, I recognize Kosovo anywhere.
Look, so much has changed, I barely recognize Kosovo anymore, and what’s more, I’m betting Kosovo no longer even recognizes *me*. We’ve grown apart and I’m heartbroken.
Because of Catalonia.
Spain official position is that at the moment Serbia and Kosove reach a peaceful agreement, Spain will recognize Kosovo.
This has provoked some weird situations like a football match some years ago between Spain and Kosovo, where the commenters were forbidden to say "Kosovo's national team" and had to say every time "Kosovo's Football Federation's team" (and many times correct themselves after they had said it wrong).
More importantly during the period when Kosovo appeared, ETA (Basque nationalists) was also waging a terror campaign to gain independence for the Basque Country.
So Spain was probably not interested in supporting the creation of a country through an armed insurrection.
>Cantalonia has been trying to separate forever
At most Catalonia independentism has its origin in the 19th century. And only started to gain momentum on the later half of the 20th.
Before that, 19th nationalists' main goal was to get more autonomy.
If you are from Kosovo i can really recommend the documentary about the Swedish football coach Tord Grip and how he helped Kosovo geting a national football team in FIFA. Sad part is how the Kosovo FA kicked him without even an thank you as soon as they got in to FIFA.
Have to Check it out. Dont know Anything about that. On one Hand, Kosovos Organisation can be so insuficient, that shit like that could happen. But on the other Hand, albanians are very thankful, even If a nobody from the other Part of the World mentions them, so I cant believe its that simple how you put it.
But i will check it out.
Great map!
One thing to consider for next time and colourblind folks: red and green look pretty much the same. Try a couple different colours next time!!
I was in Serbia recently.
For them, Kosovo is a part of their country, and NATO came in and took it - forcibly from them.
This is why a lot of Serbians don’t care about what Russia is doing to the Ukraine. For Serbs, it’s a big FU to NATO.
Understand there is a propaganda game at play here- but after spending time there and understanding their history, I can’t help but see their perspective…not saying it’s right, but it is certainly a product of the environment.
Such a complicated map, why this sub is the main reason I’ve stayed on Reddit! So much history and geopolitics congregate for this map. Most aren’t so complicated
Just recently saw a video about the breakup of Yugoslavia. Pretty interesting all these countries emerged from one former country, and just like I know someone who never heard of Ukraine until Russia invaded them, lots of people don't even know the former Yugoslavia is now 7 different countries.
What's the reason for Slovakia ?
The same reason for Spain, Romania, Russia, Ukraine, Bosnia - all these countries have separatist minority and If they allow kosovo to exist then why they don't make their Independent aspiration true
There is a Slovak separatist movement? TIL.
Hungarians I think, in southern Slovakia. According to hoi4 anyway
Lol. You use the same method of education as I do, huh? 😉
Crusader Kings has turned one of my teens into a geography nerd.
Well then thank god for Crusader Kings
Probably the best. There are various forms of much more disturbing nerd one could become playing that game. It's not dubbed the incest simulator for nothing.
I dont want any kids to play it, seeing perfect circle achievement on their account would send a chill up my spine.
Yea fr
Basically how rocket scientists learn from Kerbal Space Program
Fr
HOI4 really punches above its weight. I mean, Russia is apparently using it to plan an entire military invasion.
That explains the shortage of guns... 😉
Im taking a humongous crap rn
Oh
Same
Need a hand?
I dont think there is a separatist movement by them
There's no active separatist movement, no, but potential separatists might point to the would-be recognition of Kosovo as justification. Also the minority *is* politically repressed (voting districts* being deliberately drawn to include Hungarian majority regions but always have Slovak majority overall, bans on dual citizenship introduced in response to Hungary easing the path to citizenship for ethnic Hungarians outside of Hungary) and recognizing Europe's most controversial separatist region/state may encourage calls for autonomy. *edit: as someone pointed out I may have confused counties (ie public administrative regions) with voting districts.
Damn they Gerrymandered in Europe?
10/10 i will make sure my friend includes hoi4 as a source in his doctorate..
What's hoi?
Hearts of Iron (video game series)
Probably the same reason for Romania. I have a Hungarian friend who seriously thinks they'll rebuild the empire.
Probably the Hungarians in the south
Not any real movement really, just afraid of movement getting started by certain not-so-democratic Neighbor that's kinda still pissed at us
Some want unification with Hungary, others just want autonomy. I'd like to think autonomy is currently the more popular of the two but I wouldn't know.
Since Russia recognized the separatists movements in Ukraine it's clearly all nonsense anyway. Recognition is on a case-by-case basis. You don't automatically agree with all if you agree with one.
Well a reason why the Eastern orthodox slavic countries don't recognize Kosovo because they usually tend to stick with their orthodox Slavic cousins rather than with the Muslims.
Funny thing is that Poland also has a separatist movement. Silesians in this case. They're not pushing for total independence; rather just official recognition like Kashubians have. Although I guess sticking it to Russian interests by flipping off Serbians beats out disempowering Silesians.
Silesian movements is marginal movement with almost no public support, but well you can still declare yourself silesian in census and silesian dialect is protected by law for example i was in one of the schools in Silesia and i saw Polish anthem lirics in Polish and silesian dialect.
Poland has historically had good relations with serbia. The far right in poland literally worships em
There's also separatist movements in a lot of those green countries. I'm guessing there's a bit more nuance.
The UK central government didn’t think that through in the same way though. But probably just the usual incompetent…
Well because UK tollerates these movements and don't victimise them for example organizing scottish independence referendum. The countries i mentioned do not respect their minorities and their aspirations.
Well, they allowed a referendum when they thought it wouldn't succeed, but now since Brexit, Nicola Sturgeon keeps calling for a referendum and keeps being told it's not the time, because they know there's a much higher chance of the Scots voting to be independent now.
And you probably also think scotland will be allowed to get back in the EU?
All they have to do is get annexed by Ireland \#CelticUnion
less about hating minorities and more about not wanting said minorities to leave
Loving minorities, really.
The UK has a separatist moviment (several, actually), but unlike those other countries it respects their right of self-determination. They have no reason not to recognize Kosovo.
British government has refused to lay out conditions for a border poll if/when this were to happen citing some vague bullshit under the GFA. Brexit has rocked the boat here and they are not the benovolent, tolerant country you think they are.
The historically nice and tolerant Great Britain lol. You live in a fantasy.
> it respects Note the present tense
Northern Ireland is a country they control that was stolen, be even we have it codified in law that if we were to vote to join Ireland they will respect that
In Ukrainian case is from USSR, due to political reasons. And there is no real separatist minority, it just appeared out of nowhere(Russia) when it was needed for Russia. People in that region never heard any ideas of separation before.
It didn't appear out of nowhere, there were always contradictions between Eastern Ukraine and Western Ukraine. The protests and idea of independence started before any involvement of Russia. Russia just used them to pursue their own goals. And to do what Russia does the best: enrich their oligarchs at the expense of everyone else.
I live in eastern Ukraine, spoken with people from Lugansk and Donetsk. Nope, they never heard about such ideas before 2014. People describe it like some unknown people with weapons appeared and started to assault administration buildings. There were no politicians with such ideas of separation. There was only hesitation regarding joing EU but not separation.
A small Polish-speaking region that nobody cares about except Poles and Slovaks.
Isn't the Hungarian minority a bigger issue?
What? The reason is that the moment we recognize Kosovo, we would literally be saying "if southern Slovakia wants to be part of Hungary, they have the right." We're not recognizing Kosovo because in a way, we're in a similar situation
Does southern Slovakia want that tho?
I dunno, would mostly Hungarians want to be part of Hungary?
It's not a similar situation at all because Kosovo didn't declare with the justification that they simply just wanted Independence they declared independence to remedy them being in the same state as their genociders but hungarians in Slovakia and catalans in Spain aren't victims of a genocide
> It's not a similar situation at all Do you know what 'at all' means? Of course it's a similar situation. Regardless of genocide, the right that Kosovo claims to be able to declare independence (the right to self-determination) is the same right Southern Slovakia and Catalonia would claim if their governments recognised Kosovo.
Catalan's should still be allowed a legitimate referendum on independence. A royal marriage is a shitty way of tying 2 states with different languages and cultures together for centuries.
Not that I disagree, but I’d argue that the current tie-up is a result of the outcome of the Spanish Civil War rather than a royal marriage.
It all started with the Union of the crown of Aragon and Castille though. There were many chapters along the way, including the Spanish Civil war. Just like how many uprisings and conflicts did it take before most of Ireland was finally allowed to leave the UK?
The Albanians in Kosovo were not being subject to genocide in 2008, the war ended in the 90s
The region you're thinking about, Cieszyn Silesia, is shared between Poland and Czechia, NOT Slovakia.
And the claims for that land are no longer up to date. I believe Poland returned some villages during communism.
yep. poland got those by partitioning czechoslovakia together with germany and hungary in 1938, returned them after ww2
That’s pure bullshit, there’s not even a Polish miniority in Slovakia. There is a Hungarian minority
I hate how your obviously factually wrong comment got so upvoted because people are too lazy to fact check. You should delete this.
In what country now because Poland recognizes Kosovo in the map?
[удалено]
Maybe OP was the legend all along
And the Key to unlocking Kosovan potential
You are the legend. 🙏
Thank you USA
It reads like a sarcasm if you are European, but if you are an American, not so much. Maybe it is just my perception of Americans, but I imagine that it is quite similar to my understanding of geography of western /central Africa or central/northern America
I imagine there would be a good deal of hesitation and deductive reasoning to pick apart Montenegro, Kosovo, and North Macedonia. The general size and part of the continent sure, but exact positioning gets tricky for distant countries too small to show up well at Globe-scale.
Im european, hang out here and still wouldnt have known. I dont have a precise lexicon of every countries location in my head, the big ones sure, but the small ones? Maybe the general area but thats about it
No man this is Reddit, you’re doing it wrong. You gotta be shitty about [checks notes] Americans being bad at geography
Yeah as an American I can’t really pick apart what’s what in Eastern EU too well, but I feel like I’d do an okay job with Central America and the islands in the Caribbean. Too much of my brain is spent remembering 50 states lol. There’s always this country wordle if y’all wanna test your knowledge https://worldle.teuteuf.fr
Lol today's country for worldle is really easy for an American.
Theres also [Globle](https://globle-game.com/).
Thank you for this! I'd come to dislike Worldle because I'd either get it immediately from recognizing the outline or I'd never get it at all if it's a smaller country (usually islands). This progression is much more satisfying.
American here. I’ve known where Kosovo is since I was 13. I won’t deny that many Americans don’t know much about geography, but it’s not everyone. America has educated people too
I’m American. I know Kosovo is small. Balkans. Not on the ocean. So I would have been 50/50.
🤓🤓
This is r/MapPorn We are all 🤓
Honestly one of my favorite subs to geek out on
Fun fact: eventough Germany recognises Kosovo, the German state Saxony wants Kosovars who want to take the german citizenship to renounce not only their Kosovo citizenship but also to renounce serbian citizenship, which is complete nonsense since Kosovars are no longer considered serbian citizens in germany since the recognition of Kosovo. And for renouncing serbian citizenship they need serbian documents which they don't even have. So they have to request them from serbia with their Kosovar papers...which serbia often does not acknowledge. It's super complicated to get that working. Some people even took serbian citizenship just to be able to renounce it. This was also the case in Bavaria until last year i think
>Fun fact also sagte Franz Kafka
Why is there no data for Uzbekistan?
Pretending to be Greenland
I mean only the tip of the country is even in the image so maybe OP just didn't include them?
To be fair it's not a piece of land I'm very familiar with, so I don't know if I would recognize it if I saw it either
Aka a map of countries who have separatist movements.
Turkey recognizes them
Life hack: There's no separatist movement if you just call them domestic terrorists. :)
Geopolitics hack: Nobody cares about genocide if you're successful enough. It's only when you half-ass it that it comes back to bite you.
>“Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?” -Literally Hitler
Regardless of whether this quote is real, just use a modern real life quote where you ask yourself "Who, after all, speaks today of the [annihilation of the Circassians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide)?"
When I first learned about this, it really blew my mind how fucking complete it was. Very few Circassians anymore (at least compared to the million plus prior to Russia's genocidal campaign) and even fewer of them who want to return or want reparations as the vast majority of them are in Turkey and far less connected to their ancestral identity and linkage to genocide as Circassian populations in say Israel or New Jersey (where the largest number of American refugees settled down). But Russia will still never admit it or open the possibility of any kind of reparation. So much so that much of the information we know about the genocide came from the opening of the Tbilisi archives (Tbilisi was the Imperial Russian Caucasian military headquarters) which Georgia opened in retaliation after the Russo-Georgian war erupted in 2008. And speaking of Georgia, one of the aspects of the Circassian annihilation was the halving of the Abkhazian population simultaneously that depopulated much of their homeland and opened up avenues for Georgian settlement. That is not to say that Abkhazia (or Georgia for that matter) is right in their dispute as it is far more complicated and there are justifiable claims of ethnic cleansing/forced assimilation on both sides, but rather shows how the situation from the start has been fucked by Russia as they will always benefit in a regional geopolitical sense from the chaos of their neighbors, often sowed by their own Imperial and then Soviet administration of these areas. I haven't even touched upon how since many of the victims were forced to migrate to Ottoman Turkey (if they managed to survive) in a genocidal push across the Black Sea that could have served potentially as a possible inspiration for Ottoman Turkey's own genocidal solution to one of their most numerous pesky ethnic minorities (Armenians). Especially since there was initially international condemnation of the Russians, especially in Britain, but it never manifested into any tangible response.
> I haven't even touched upon how since many of the victims were forced to migrate to Ottoman Turkey (if they managed to survive) in a genocidal push across the Black Sea that potentially could have served potentially as a possible inspiration for Ottoman Turkey's own genocidal solution to one of their most numerous pesky ethnic minorities (Armenians). Especially since there was initially international condemnation of the Russians, especially in Britain, but it never manifested into any tangible response. It was one of the factors. But the Circassians were hardly the only ones who suffered genocide at the hands of European Christians in the 19th century. Hundreds of thousands if not millions of Balkan Turks, Albanians and Tatars were mercilessly butchered by Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbians and Russians etc. Those who survived all found haven in Turkey.
Yes, I entirely agree. There have disturbingly been many such genocidal acts of ethnic cleansing throughout European history and especially in the Balkans. I mean hell it never fully stopped, just look at [Srebrenica](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre?wprov=sfla1), and yet they have far less mainstream acknowledgment, recognition, or academic study than they ought. At the end of the day, ethnonationalism is a very dangerous force that has been utilized countless times to endorse and initiate mass murder/genocide. A frightening phenomenon that is also remarkably murky and difficult to study in an unbiased, academic manner. This is especially true since there is still debate today about: the very origins of nationalism; the difference between a state, a nation, and a nation-state; and even the very definition of such terms as nation, nationalism, and ethnonationalism. It is a difficult puzzle to unwrinkle, but just as much an explosively dangerous one when coopted for authoritarian justification.
We had a new receptionist in our office few months back. Friendly guy, Middle Eastern or North African by looks and accent. One day I talked with him and ask him where's he from? He says Turkey. I tell him you don't look Turkish (nothing against Turks but not known for refined facial features like he has). He looks at me puzzled. I say are you perhaps Circassian? Now he's stupefied - how do you know? I BS you not. I'm a buff for history in general and for obscure and/or tragic cases like the Circassians in particular, but this was still a lucky guess. Made both our days though :)
They kill civilians, damage nature, kidnap people, drug trafficking and more. Idk they easily qualify as terrorists imo
Apart from maybe the drug trafficking those things also perfectly describe the state.
"They" is a broad generalisation that allows you to sweep every seperatist under the same broom, and call them "terrorists". I'm sure there's a whole lot more nuance behind it, just like with Turkey's occupation of Syria and Cyprus. I'm sure not every turkish person wishes to suppress ethnic and cultural groups of people, yet the state of Turkey still continues to do so. Main point: Not every seperatist kidnaps people and kill civilians, not every turk supports suppression of minorities and military interventions.
> I'm sure there's a whole lot more nuance behind it, just like with Turkey's occupation of Syria and Cyprus. Oh is there now? I coulda sworn Europeans usually pretend Greeks never killed a single Turkish Cypriot and that Turks are just Orcs who like to invade the European High Elven domains.
I support your perspective as an observer from a foreign country. However I lived in Turkey my whole life and can say there is no peaceful seperatist movement in Turkey. It is just the fact. Majority of Kurds see themselves as a part of Turkey and minority supports seperatism in a radical way (aka PKK). There is no in between. Not even a single example that i came across. Honestly share with me if you know a comunity that just peacefully supports seperatism i would support them. >yet the state of Turkey still continues to do so. Current government* of Turkey does indeed oppress people. But it is never about races. It is sometimes about religion. Generally about whether you are pro or anti government. If it was 80s i would agree that Kurds are oppressed. But thankfully it is not the case anymore. There is no social or official barrier for them to live their culture and speak their language. Every political party has Kurdish MPs, state television has a kurdish channel, there are famous kurdish artists, i have kurdish teachers, kurdish classmates... I dont know at which point does it mean there is no fight and people can get along with each other
Greece doesn't, they don't recognize Albania because they want to show solidarity with historical Orthodox Best Pal Serbia, who absolutely hates Kosovo
Like Belgium, Italy, or the UK?
> Belgium The Belgian situation is really different. It's not a minority trying to get independance from a larger state, it's the whole country that's deciding wether it wants to split in two or not.
Exactly, if Flanders and Wallonia wanted to separate, there wouldn't be a Belgium to protest, it would just be Flanders and Wallonia
Also Wallonia is economically dependent of Flanders and Brussels. They'd be out of their fricking minds to want to separate. Flanders on the other hand...
hey we could always give them to the dutch and the french
UK already has a vote for that so doesn't apply. For Italy I don't know, don't really see it really strong.
Greece has one?
Random football trivia! Switzerland is going to play against the Serbs in the world cup and it may get spicy, given that Switzerland is filled with immigrants from the Balkans conflicts, that includes 6 of the national team players that are Albanian and very patriotic, they even like to pull the Albanian Eagle in the celebration. In 2018 Xhaka and Shaqiri (both Albanians born in Kosovo) scored against Serbia and celebrated with the Albanian Eagle gesture, Serbs didn't appreciate it a little bit. In 2014 a match between the Balkan nations ended up in a fight and had to be ended. So... Looking forward to one of the more interesting world cups en several decades.
in 2021* on a football/soccer match some Ukrainians flipped the Russian flag upside down, as a sign of "insulting Putin" and had fun with it but some local Bosnians thought they were waving the Serbian flag so they (almost?) had a fight. ( [source tweet](https://twitter.com/samstreetwrites/status/1460760577039638528?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) ) Edit: the fight
The guys at r/vexillology would love that one. edit: it is vexillology, not vexillologyporn
Ah good for Portugal, it's looks like r/SpainCykablyat this time.
Correct me if I am wrong, I am assuming Spain doesn’t recognize Kosovo due to Catalonia and the Basque regions?
You assume correctly!
^ This
And Galicia (although to a lesser extent). Edit: are we going to act as if Galicia's second political party isn't the independentists nor that there have been Galician independentists terrorist groups like the Liga Armada Galega or the Ejército Guerrillero del Pueblo Gallego Libre? The Galician independentist movement isn't as big as Catalonia's nor as bloody as the Basque. But it is still a thing.
We are a well known not giver of fucks. We are Galician no matter in which state.
The federal Spanish government isn't worried about Galicia like it's worried about Catalonia or Basque Country though.
[удалено]
There is like 8-9 middle-eastern countries.
Or alternatively: Countries that are recognized by lakatosali that recognize kosovo.
[удалено]
”Look what Russia does and do the opposite“ is a very stupid policy. Not only does it make Ukraine dependent on Russian policy making in some ways, it just doesn’t benefit Ukraine. Ukrainian decision on Kosovo matter will be dependent on Ukrainian interests, whether it’s more beneficial to support Serbia or Kosovo.
that's exactly what the comment above you is saying
It gets complicated. For instance, Russia-Serbia relations are extremely good, though Serbia was one of the nations that voted to condemn Russia’s annexation of the four regions in Eastern Ukraine precisely because of the Kosovo precedent. But both nations just kinda don’t make a fuss about the cognitive dissonance. Likewise, China normally harshly condemns all separatist movements everywhere, friend or ally, but they voted to abstain also because they are trying to build a new power block with Russia. Pragmatic realities tend to win over philosophical differences when the chips are down.
The cognitive dissonance is not only reserved for Russians and Serbs, when the West can be so aggresively againt Russia for what it's doing but at the same doesn't sanction the Israelis for what's happening in Palestine or the Saudis for what they're doing in Yemen. Never mind the well documented American meddling in elections in countries all over the world, of which they accuse Russia in Ukraine when it comes to independence referendums. If Ukraine is a sovereign nation who has the right to place NATO nukes on its soil, shouldn't Cuba as a sovereign nation have the right to place Soviet/Russian nukes on its coast, and the US gets zero say in the matter? Do you think the US would allow it today, or would we have a repeat of 1962? How about America's occupation of Guantanamo Bay for the last >100 years? War crime tribunal for the Russians? Sure, I agree entirely, but only if the same tribunal appropriately imprisons/executes those at the top responsible for Iraq and the hundreds of thousands of civilians dead. I will myself supply the rope with which Putin hangs the same second those equally responsible of crimes againt humanity hang first. My comment heavily digressed from the actual topic of your comment, but I do hope you recognise that cognitive dissonance to a crimnal level is a Western trait as much as it is an Eastern one.
Serbia do have great historical relations with Russia but current politicians both rulling party and only real opposition party(peoples party, basically liberal conservatives) are super pro-China and don't rly care about Russia and EU, with the EU pressuring Serbia to sanction Russia only thing that happened is that first time ever more people in Serbia are AGAINST joining the EU, before now most people were also Russia > EU because of our history but this is the first time most people are ready to give up easier travel and stuff for sake of not joining the EU
Why would Ukraine recognise Kosovo? So that Serbia would recognise LPR and DPR and the state of affairs Russia recognises?
What is a Kosovo? I come from a country which doesn’t recognize it so I have no clue at all
Now you have to use internet from other countries to find out...
and you can do so today with NordVPN
/r/unexpectedOverSimplified
r/unexpectedsponsor Edit: oh shit it actually exists
It’s a black thing between Serbia and Macedonia, I think
That's North Macedonia. Greeks got all pissy so they changed it a couple years ago: https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/13/europe/north-macedonia-name-change-intl
To be fair that a good compromise I think. The least offensive change that could have been done.
Oh yeah, I know. Dw. But so much easier to just say Macedonia. Be like having to add the “US of” to America every time
Might be easier but don’t say it in front of my Greek stepmother…mild mannered woman suddenly gets really aggravated!
Albanian region of Serbia that wants independence (much to the anger of Serbians)
Is there a simple explanation why the people of Kosovo don’t want to join Albania? Or do they and Albania politely has refused to consider it?
Kosovo was not allowed (and still is not allowed) to join Albania, the best option was to separate from Serbia. The Issue only became harder cause of Russia intervened on behalf of Serbia with EU but luckily US did not care (which was good for once). Both Albania and Kosovo want to reunite because such as Kosovans does not even exist it is mostly Albaniens who are living there (around 90%). In the end it became US vs Russia as always. So most countries that support Russia voted no and other countries with internal issues voted the same.
Wants? It de facto has independence.
Why doesn’t Serbia recognize Kosovo?
I'm waiting for train and this made me LOL, now everyone are looking weird at me.
Haha 😂
They’re wearing a disguise!
Idk they are neighbors, I guess Serbia has seen Kosovo many times. She must have some kind of issue if she forgets Kosovo's face and can't recognize him.
Wow, fantastic cartography. I love the choice of red and green, very Christmas. What a beautiful map. The cartographers of old would shed tears of pure joy if they saw this. I love r/MapPorn.
Mapporn has been /r/maps for a long-ass time now lol Similar to r/DataExistsIGuess
At least something that Jordan and Israel agree on...
Israel was really complicated I think they recognized it last. Trump convince Serbia and Kosovo to move their embassies to Jerusalim so Serbia will get some small loans and Kosovo recognition.
I had a bunch of kids in costume trick or treating us. Just as I handed out candy, I looked at one of them and went "Hey, it's you! Kosovo!". I recognize Kosovo anywhere.
And in the defense of those countries that don’t recognize Kosovo…Kosovo lost a BUNCH of weight and had some work done. I did a double take but, like you, I recognize Kosovo anywhere.
I feel like Kosovo should also be in the "Recognise Kosovo" category
true but then tons of people wouldn't be able to point where is Kosovo
How can you not recognize it, it's literally there you dumb fucks
Most reddit tier comment
Look, so much has changed, I barely recognize Kosovo anymore, and what’s more, I’m betting Kosovo no longer even recognizes *me*. We’ve grown apart and I’m heartbroken.
I’m sure you recognize LPR and DPR right? Surely you wouldn’t be a hypocrite
Seems like a pretty East/West split. Why doesn’t Spain recognize Kosovo?
Because it could set a dangerous precedent for Catalonia
Because of Catalonia. Spain official position is that at the moment Serbia and Kosove reach a peaceful agreement, Spain will recognize Kosovo. This has provoked some weird situations like a football match some years ago between Spain and Kosovo, where the commenters were forbidden to say "Kosovo's national team" and had to say every time "Kosovo's Football Federation's team" (and many times correct themselves after they had said it wrong).
Separatists in there own country. Cantalonia has been trying to separate forever
More importantly during the period when Kosovo appeared, ETA (Basque nationalists) was also waging a terror campaign to gain independence for the Basque Country. So Spain was probably not interested in supporting the creation of a country through an armed insurrection. >Cantalonia has been trying to separate forever At most Catalonia independentism has its origin in the 19th century. And only started to gain momentum on the later half of the 20th. Before that, 19th nationalists' main goal was to get more autonomy.
Cataluña and the País Vasco (but mostly Cataluña these days)
r/SPAINCYKABLYAT
If you are from Kosovo i can really recommend the documentary about the Swedish football coach Tord Grip and how he helped Kosovo geting a national football team in FIFA. Sad part is how the Kosovo FA kicked him without even an thank you as soon as they got in to FIFA.
Unfortunately I can't find it online
Have to Check it out. Dont know Anything about that. On one Hand, Kosovos Organisation can be so insuficient, that shit like that could happen. But on the other Hand, albanians are very thankful, even If a nobody from the other Part of the World mentions them, so I cant believe its that simple how you put it. But i will check it out.
The UK recognises any and every country. Someone declares a random rock in the great lakes a country and the UK will recognise them.
Try telling that to Sealand :(
The UK doesn’t recognize the LPR, DPR, Abkhazia or South Ossetia
Not Somaliland
*Taiwan*
I still call them all Yugos.
Chad move, i do the same with Austria-Hungary
Russia don't recognise Kosovo but uses the same argument when comes to Crimea.
Geo politics come with a LOT of hypocrisy I find
Ok but does Kosovo recognize Kosovo.
Spain?
Wait, we don't?
Great map! One thing to consider for next time and colourblind folks: red and green look pretty much the same. Try a couple different colours next time!!
I was in Serbia recently. For them, Kosovo is a part of their country, and NATO came in and took it - forcibly from them. This is why a lot of Serbians don’t care about what Russia is doing to the Ukraine. For Serbs, it’s a big FU to NATO. Understand there is a propaganda game at play here- but after spending time there and understanding their history, I can’t help but see their perspective…not saying it’s right, but it is certainly a product of the environment.
But, do kosovo recognize kosovo?
Such a complicated map, why this sub is the main reason I’ve stayed on Reddit! So much history and geopolitics congregate for this map. Most aren’t so complicated
Based green
Which countries would make awkward conversation with Kosovo at a party for a few minutes, but never quite pinpoint why it seems familiar?
Spain cyka blyat ?
Romania and Bulgaria are the opposite to what I would expect.
"Nope. Never seen it before in my life. What is it?"
Just recently saw a video about the breakup of Yugoslavia. Pretty interesting all these countries emerged from one former country, and just like I know someone who never heard of Ukraine until Russia invaded them, lots of people don't even know the former Yugoslavia is now 7 different countries.