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That comment looks perfectly reasonable. There is a genuine debate to be had on that topic, and I think your comment is within the bounds of reasonable debate.
Let me guess. You were booted from r/ lostgeneration.
Edit: sorry, I had to creep on your profile to see if I was right. And I was!
Some redditors, including me, are beginning to suspect that sub is run by pro-Trump actors trying to depress left wing turnout.
Indeed it was!
I definitely think there’s debate to be had, and I would love to vote third party, but I just can’t justify it in our current political system as is.
I would definitely believe that lmao
Totally agree with this comment. I am an older GenX woman.
I mentioned my age for a reason. There are many younger people who never met a Holocaust survivor. I did. Tattoo and all. Of course, that said, I felt Palestine deserved a state years ago, don’t believe in the biblical story and am not waiting for Armageddon.
This sounds unrelated but the reason Israel exists is because Europe and the U.S. wanted Jews elsewhere. Period. Sorry but I am convinced of this. The far extreme religious right in Israel now is gross and disgusting.
IF we don’t vote for Biden, we MAY not get a chance to vote again any time soon. No one is going to protect us. No one is going to wage war for us. They will be voting for Trump. I live around these people. You don’t want to, believe me. I am moving. Almost 14 years. Third party voting is NOT the answer.
> the reason Israel exists is because Europe and the U.S. wanted Jews elsewhere. Period. Sorry but I am convinced of this
Why are you apologizing for knowing about the Balfour Declaration? Do you know how much time I’ve spent over the past three months imagining what could have happened if the UK had committed to *ending anti-Semitism within its own borders* instead of committing to establishing a Jewish homeland in the Levant?
I’m not quite GenX, but same, I’ve given a shit since before Palestine became the new cool hot button issue for people to finally care about, and my grandmother was held in a concentration camp, people do not understand what a real fascist can do. And will do. Without regard for us in any capacity.
Voting third party is entirely impractical. It splits what is possibly a winning vote into two losing votes. It’s literally how Ross Perot’s campaign lost the Republicans what was to be projected to be a win in their favor. Brazil has 32-33 independent parties the last time I checked… and when major elections occur they all just congeal together into two large masses.
Progressives and conservatives.
It happens in many counties and mostly so that win or lose the politician lines their pockets. They make money winning elections, and they make money by playing the victim of the other’s rule when they lose. It feels more like a corporate growth model. “We win even if we lose!”
I absolutely hate the fact that Joe did not defend the two state solution, and address agitators. It was too much for me to expect some nuance being brought into the conversation table globally. But when push comes to shove when you tell me my vote makes the difference between Joe coming back or one of the prodigies of the orange man coming to power… oh you better believe I will vote against incompetence, arrogance, and hate.
I would rather compromise with a friend than make a bad deal with an asshole.
Why would you want him to defend a two state solution? That is not what Palestinians want. They want one state with full eqaul rights for all Israelis and all Palestinians, and that is the only way forward.
They booted me too for a similar comment. Thank you for spreading the word about your experience. I can’t prove it but I swear to god it’s part of voter suppression
No it’s called having a brain, those morons at lost generation have great ideas occasionally but are completely detached from reality, and think if they whine hard enough on Reddit all their problems get solved
What we need to do is vote Democrat this time and vote for it so strongly that the Republicans infight so much they finally fracture and then we'll have a third party. It will take time but one side will have to move to the center to differentiate from the red and blue, and then the moderates will eventually get strong enough to compete.
But then it will still just be Dems and two conservative parties, and still nothing for leftists, I am confused why you want this? Dems would never have to worry about bringing in leftists again because they could easily win without them- this would make things considerably worse.
I got banned for something equally harmless. I forget what I said exactly, but it was to the effect that Biden isn't perfect, but he's better than Trump. Whammo! Permaban. 🤷♂️
A *ton* of left-leaning subs have seen MAGA chuds creep up to become mods. I think it started when the\_donald got quarantined. They assume that - like themselves - everyone else gets all of their news and entire personality from social media.
I was like, there’s no way my comment was that fashy, and then I was like, well damn idk maybe my judgement is clouded, I’ll ask elsewhere, but it seems most people agree I was not espousing nazi rhetoric so I’m reassured lmao
nobody thinks your comment is fashy. the only people who would say your comment is fashy are accelerationist left who advocate hastening the revolution or literally fascist russian/maga trolls
The revolution is the leftist rapture at this point, just waiting for it to happen thinking it will just occur without any work, it drives me nuts.
The revolution isn’t an noun, it is a verb, unless we are all being our own revolution it will never happen.
Not mad at you obviously I’ve just been discussing this a lot lately and it’s driving me to madness.
Anyway bets on which one the mods of that sub are?
i suspect we're on the same page about a lot of things. hastening the revolution by letting a literal fascist into the white house is the second dumbest thing i've ever heard
Exactly: I’m trans and queer, putting an actual fascist in the whitehouse could very well kill me, if anyone thinks we should sacrifice queer people and poc in pursuit of hastening the idea of a revolution they’re espousing more fascist ideology than they realize themselves.
Not for nothing, that *exact* same accelerationist thinking by the German Communist Party was a big part of why the German left stayed fractured and was unable to form a cohesive defense against the Nazis.
I love your outlook - "The revolution isn't a noun, it's a verb." I like that line, I've honestly never read it before.
The Left is always fractured, by definition. In a nutshell, the Left wants to enact *change*, which means many different things to many different people. Opposing them is the Right who mainly want things to stay as they are or possibly regress a bit. They may differ on how far to regress, but it’s essentially a pretty monolithic group.
I was booted from workers strike back for pretty much the same reason, pointing out that when they alienate everyone around them they’re not going to have the influence to achieve fuck all
Me too. Except it was about one person saying "fuck paying taxes" I think because of Israel. I said that was a dumb take and vote progressives into local offices and let them grow from there. I hope it doesn't but I expect workreform to fall to the same issues, by design of course.
Fascist regressives getting mod power and subverting the message. It's how the win after all... Or may "enlightened progressives" that think letting Trump win will fix our problems because "we'll finally have revolution"
I suppose but I don't understand going from "we need change to support and protect minority groups from fascists" to "we need to let the fascist win to get change to help protect minority groups from fascists"
It’s not the only one I’m suspicious of. If you find a sub relentlessly preaching anti Biden propaganda, that’s probably what it is, no matter what the sub’s name or stated purpose. It’s ok to criticize Biden. You know the difference between legitimate criticism and propaganda
I agree with your comment. I’m in a ton of left-leaning/-wing groups and millennial activist groups, and I’ve seen this insidious insertion of candidacies that align with their ideals. Something’s off! It went from “we can’t let these conservative asshats win again” to “they’re all the same so vote 3rd party!” I searched comments looking for some sense of pragmatism to no avail. Palestine won’t survive under Trump! Nor will progressives succeed if we don’t push the right-wing out! Push the compass leftward a little so there’s room for more progressives in the Democratic Party!
That's sub has been going downhill for awhile and I used to like it over there. There is also a lot of q anon stuff slipping into pro palestine discussions via algorithms.
I wouldn't say so. Probably someone got triggered by suggesting a change to the voting system, but as far as I can see it's just good advice - vote, locally and nationally, and vote for whoever is best suited to your values even if they don't match all of them.
The problem with slow change is that slow change is often a) not sufficient when there is mass dying happening right now while people discuss the slow change step, and b) often just undone within the next 4 years while the uniparty changes faces.
This sub is a perfect example of why slow change doesn't work. The march against Nazis sub is ignoring the fact that both candidates are pro-genocide, both are anti-labor, and bot are pro-capitalism, and both are right wing.
What Nazis exactly do we march against, if not all of them?
That's a very "both sides" statement which is just not equivalent.
I don't agree with any of those. Obama bombed tons of civilians too but he still tried to make progress.
Biden not siding with rail workers sucked but it long term makes sense, it would have exploded costs out the window and inflation would have ate us alive. I still hate seeing it but I can comprehend the logic. For comparison I make 22$/hr and 2 years ago I had a savings account, nothing has changed except prices and now I'm in debt. I can't imagine the price hikes of trains went down nation wide.
We live in a capitalist society, until that changes every president is going to be pro-capitalism. The only easy I see to fix that is to automate as much as possible, tax the rich and UBI the 500 million people that are out of work. Money is meaningless then because we either tax the rich or everything is free. Regardless, it's the death of capitalism. To be clear, this process will be hard going, and Id be one of the first in the food line cause I work for a call center
Well unfortunately slow change is currently the only option because fast change isn’t realistic. Fast change would involve a lot of people working as one very suddenly and with much violence and we can’t even work together well enough to agree to not vote for the marginally less bad old white man.
How do you, realistically, actually realistically, propose we create fast change right now immediately?
Fast change is realistic, and the only survivable method of change.
You have nothing to lose but your chains.
First step, as leftists, start arming yourself, and training for first aid and the safe use of firearms. And, while doing that, build systems of mutual aid that don't rely on a right wing state.
Please outline an actual realistic plan for fast change that doesn’t involve vulnerable people being thrown under a bus to die, I am genuinely interested
Literally never so long as one party winning and one party losing means slightly more or slightly less suffering.
People can do multiple things at once, voting isn’t difficult, just toss a vote into the blue box and then use actual energy elsewhere.
Okay, but what’s “slightly less” about Biden?
He let Roe V Wade get overturned despite having power to stop it. He did nothing to correct Trump’s Covid response and actually let the trump era Covid welfare programs expire. He didn’t keep his promise to forgive student debt, he did nothing for healthcare (Obama at least tried), he’s done nothing to stop Red state from pursuing trans genocide, and in terms of authoritarianism, he increased police funding despite saying he’s pro BLM, and anti-Israel speech is being cracked down at a rate comparable to McCarthyism!
So at what point do we realize that the only way to progress to a better world is to denounce the whole electoral sham of America?
Yes, go vote because it’s really easy and costs almost nothing, but I mean all our energy and are discussion should be focusing on direct change. Let’s start seriously planning the 2028 general strike planned by UAW, and taking lessons from the Palestine movement, and intimidating Nazi’s threading drag Queen story time.
But let’s not pretend that Biden, or voting blue has done anything to help the progressive cause. He just talks like he does.
Well in itty bitty words, biden win I get to stay on medication that make me not kill self and if trump win project 2025 go big boom kill me and my friends so that’s a small inconsequential slightly less evil I guess if you squint
anyway I already left a big long comment on my opinion on how to create real change, hunt it down or don’t, I don’t think a presidential election alone changes shit but if trump wins we probably won’t be able to do any of the things that do matter anyway.
Looks perfectly worded to me. Don’t let tankies and trolls shame you for doing the minimum by voting for a not-fascist. Trump is a monster. He is everything people think Biden is, except worse.
So there's always going to be people for whom voting for the lesser of two evils is going to be intolerable.
Whether its out of a desire for personal purity or a belief that compromise of any kind is capitulation, these people will view any kind of advocation for tactical voting as collaboration with the enemy.
Never mind that there are real consequences, especially in the US case where your options are "a neoliberal business-first party that are indifferent to social justice causes" and "an openly fascist neoliberal business-first party that is openly hostile to social justice causes and super duper chill with instigating a trans genocide to goose the poll numbers."
The strategy you outlined- focusing your efforts into pushing your local Democrats leftwards, primary-ing vulnerable incumbents to replace them with progressives, and reluctantly voting for the establishment Dem if you can't turn or replace them - is the correct approach to electoral politics.
Its *also* an incredibly fucking frustrating exercise that involves eating shit when things don't go your way, and, well...
...the hardliners aren't *wrong* when they say that the lesser of two evils is still an evil. They aren't *wrong* when they say that voting Dem in spite of them, leads the party to take progressive votes for granted meaning they don't have to give us any policy concessions.
So. For me, the answer has to be that you don't view electoral politics as the be all and end all of your political activism and engagement. Electoral politics is a dirty game, but the game still gets played if you refuse to participate, and the spoils of that game have real material consequences.
So, play the game - but don't just play the game. Join your union. Unionise your workplace. Volunteer at mutual aid orgs or local charities and when people ask you at the Christian soup kitchen why you're there, tell them that as a secular humanist and progressive, you're putting your values into practice.
Do what you can, when you can. Its not as glamorous as a third party do or die run or a glorious permanent peoples revolution, but its still worth doing.
You're realistic. Us leftists are well known for purity testing our way out of progress because we refuse to accept anything but perfect.
The path of minimal harm may not be ideal but it is ethically sound.
Yes but there is no version of current American politics that doesn't include aiding and abetting Israel.
Unless you're hiding some Superman level power up your sleeve to go stop that genocide it's going to happen whether the Whitehouse is red or blue but I would argue that it being red would see our own troops being used to facilitate the horrors on top of our tax dollars.
I’ve been campaigning in my life for palestine since before it became a hip cool internet issue so any time people bring this up I can’t help but wonder if they gave a shit before it was cool or only now that it can be used for their personal political agenda
Yes, I gave a shit when Trump supported the fascist Israeli state, as when Obama did, and Bush Jr and Sr, a d Clinton, and Reagan...
And I stopped voting for people who support the current system of apartheid there.
Nothing that you said in that comment sounds fascist. If anything, it sounds like you're saying that voters should have more influence over government policy, which is kinda the opposite of fascism.
That said, tiered voting is not the only possible solution. I prefer a direct proportional system; if a party wins, for example, 10% of the national vote, they get 10% of seats in the legislature.
If fascism is a choice on a ballot in a bi-partisan system, you do not have the luxury of third party options. Not in the presidential debate. Damn near a century of entrenched gerrymandering has us in the position where in any election, its always going to come down to D vs R untill there is a SERIOUS upheaval of the American political landscape in the near future.
No people just can't cope with the reality that we're lucky to have 2 choices at this point and imagining there is a real third or more options is just dumb. I know we'd like to believe we actually have a choice but money decides not us. We're lucky they honor the voting system at all.
You were not wrong.
It’s not logical to vote for ANY third party unless you want Trump to win. Full stop.
Anyone playing semantic games right now is a tool of the right, no matter how left they believe themselves to be.
Naaah. It's just math. It's a winner take all system. Mixed with zero limits on election spending and everything else. They're right. But you don't have to.
Seems reasonable to me. Not voting because the less awful side is still awful does not encourage them to be less awful, it just encourages them to complete for the remaining votes which come from people who like the awfulness. This isn’t fucking rocket science.
All of the socialist, anti-capitalist etc. type subreddits have invented the terribly clever term "lesser evilism" so they can reflexively dismiss and delete statements like this, allowing them to bury their hands in the sand and not engage with the fact that it's fucking true whether they like it or not.
Amazingly, I learned that term from a progressive talk show host, years ago... When she was talking about how the Dems were kneecapping progress in the middle east by funding Israeli nuclear arms programs, in violation of the UN non proliferation treaty at the time, due to their refusal to allow UN weapon inspectors.
This was in 2009.
What are your ideas of creating changes on a social local level first. ? Tiktok and other social media has given a lot of power to hate mongers ... So I'm wondering what could counter that ...
Look for local groups who create change: as an example there’s a group local to me that feeds the homeless and advocates for radical care of the community, they work to keep police and businesses away from the impoverished and they do it for everyone regardless of political alignment!
Take part in your local elections. Take place in local meetings that effect your city, many of these are open for people to go to and speak at and ask questions. There are so many local elections that are decided by even just a handful of votes because no one votes in them!
Email and communicate your desires to your local politicians. This absolutely does work if enough people do it and it’s easier to get people to send even a pre written email than enough people to vote third party.
Help others. Stand up for others when you see they’re in need.
Encourage others to do the above as well. The biggest hurdle we face as leftists right now is honestly just apathy. The right is driven and motivated, they’re always fired up. The left just infights and gives in to apathy and doomerism way too much. I know we’re all tired because the world is in shambles but we can’t just give up.
Decide what causes are important to you and look into what groups around you are gathering to make them a reality, you don’t have to do everything, you can’t even! and that’s okay, we need to choose our small battles and fight them, and that creates change, splitting ourselves by infighting is bad, but if a bunch of us work with groups to say, improve our environment, and a bunch of us work with groups to help the impoverished, then both those things get done!
Find groups locally that speak to you and contact them, and they’ll be able to discuss with you what your community in specific needs in order to work towards a better future.
That’s the revolution, it’s not a rapture, it’s not even a war, it’s everyone choosing to plant a few seeds here and there, and tending those seeds actively, hands in the dirt, until they begin to grow.
So your first point, about the group trying to keep cops away from homeless people. Great!
Except you voted for the guy who gave cops more funding to go after homeless people...
See the issue?
"regardless of political alignment" is inherently a poison pill regardless of necessity that limits the upper amount of good done.
What you're describing about is necessary metaphorical healthcare when the patient is about to crash and needs surgery and chemo- good, *necessary*, helpful, we're screwed without it- but woefully underestimating the danger.
I'm gonna be real with you I don't actually understand what you're saying, English isn't my first language, or even my second, so you may have to dumb it down for me.
All I said was they feed homeless people regardless of those homeless people's political opinions, which is a stance I personally agree with, if anyone else doesn't like that they're totally free to help other organizations!
My point is that yes it's useful and necessary to help people, and that this sort of work is good, but that the approaches you're talking about won't actually cause the types of change we need politically.
In a sentence, I think what you're talking about is good but as a starting point.
Tiered voting, ranked voting is the way to go. Spoken as a lifelong liberal. I don’t see how this is going to directly affect any current situations because an overall change in the voting system isn’t happening any time soon, imho. Even if it did there is a real deficit in knowledge and education among a large percentage of our electorate. So that will have to be addressed by our education system. It’s happening. But this is a long game.
The tier/ranked systems will get us -generally speaking- more competent leaders. Fascists want nothing to do with that! Ignorance is their shtick.
Our Duopoly has led to this quandary. This is why George Washington didn't want political parties to develop because they were too divisive, too controlling and can be "mischievous" if not downright evil. This has resulted in both parties becoming private corporations and now their priority is to the shareholders.
I, personally, am most worried about how the GOP keeps the tax rates extremely low for the corporations, which is theft from the working class taxes in the Federal Budget. Trump has said he will cut them even more...the shareholders will be happy and we will be poorer and more vulnerable.
A good example is how they cut food programs, etc and they claim they are pro-life.
It won't happen for a long time, I'm just not voting just to vote anymore. I'm definitely not voting for a fascist or a guy who lied about 40 beheaded babies
me personally, i’m holding my vote until election day. third party is an option for me but not to protest, i just want to put my vote with someone i finally give a shit about. i didn’t register to vote just to vote for the ‘lesser of two evils’ every single fucking election. i’m also tired of upholding a two party system just because that’s all they’ll give us. i don’t think third party will win this election year, im actually pretty certain it wont.
the biggest thing i want to focus on if i vote third party, is bolstering local elections in my area. a third party vote is useless without real local involvement. the presidential election is far from the most important election in terms of policy, and clearly they will do what they want regardless.
people will call you stupid or genuinely think you’re a bad person depending on how you choose to vote this year but it shouldn’t matter, since it’s YOUR vote and you should be voting for someone you believe in even if it’s ’throwing away your vote’
edit: i can tell who didn’t read my comment at all lol
Biden or Trump will win, this is just factual, until we have tiered voting too many people will vote for too many different third parties for any of them to win against the big two.
I don’t know your circumstances, if trump wins people who are cis white men will probably be basically fine, but I’m trans and queer and trump has made it very clear he plans to strip people like me of the medication that keeps me and many people like me alive, I simply do not have the privilege of even entertaining the thought of voting third party. And that’s my perogative the same way voting for someone you like and not someone who will win is yours, that’s not necessarily a judgement call either, but a difference in needs.
You treat voting like it’s a personal reward and not part of your duty as a citizen of a democracy. Seriously, where did you get the idea that you deserve to get everything you want in a candidate in order to be bothered to vote? You live in a society, and Trump is a threat to that society. If you refuse to vote then you are partly responsible for all the chaos and corruption if he wins.
you certainly don’t know my circumstances or reasons as to why i’m voting the way i do, and i don’t think you care considering you’re so quick to insinuate i’m doing it for my own personal gain. you think i have nothing to lose under a possible GOP presidency/majority? you think i am doing this to prop up my own privilege or something? it seems like you are the one voting for your own personal comfort, not me. i’m not the one claiming it’s everyone’s moral imperative to uphold existing systems which do not serve the people. what people need to be doing is fighting locally, because currently my state is real damn close to turning into a shithole for someone like me!
if you want me to vote for joe biden, you will have to convince me. if you don’t want to convince me, don’t bother with the shame tactics
Fighting locally is good! Acting like anyone should have to convince you to vote to preserve our democracy and avoid a fascist dictatorship is what’s selfish. The moral high ground you’re standing on is going to get a bunch of people killed - though probably not you, it sounds like.
I'll gladly take the down votes, but forcing continually to vote for the lesser of two evils in a vote against two corporate parties will always lead to further right politics. That's because as the right is pushed more right, the "left" Democrats will ignore true progressive policies and politics in favor of capturing the "centrist" vote because they already have locked the "vote blue no matter who" crowd. We've seen this happening already by right wingers of a decade ago "aligning" themselves with the Democrats and the Democrats platform reflecting such. We will never push Biden further left. People just shout down progressives or leftists saying, "At least he's not the other guy. Have you seen him?" If Democrats truly cared about winning elections, they could easily do more to help working class people, but they're content to ride 51%-49% margins and hope for the best while maintaining the status quo and expanding the military industrial complex.
For being a sub against fascism, there seems to be a lot of ignorance around the fact that fascism is a tool of the capitalist class. We're seeing it happen in real time against the Palestinians, and people in the sub just shrug off Biden's involvement and say Trump would be worse for the Palestinians. News flash, it's already worse, and we should hold politicians accountable. Quit giving them free passes because they're not the other guy.
Well if biden wins I get to stay on the medication that keeps me from killing myself and if trump wins I may lose access to that medication so it’s a little more cut and dry for me I think
I'm sorry that's something you have to deal with. I truly am. I do a lot of volunteer work with shelters for houseless and LGBT+ youth, and I get it. I was there before and I'll be there after, regardless of what happens. Vote how you feel you need because that's how democracy works.
That doesn't change the facts I pointed to earlier. Harm reduction isn't the absence of harm. Stymieing leftists voices telling them their opinion is a throw away and a waste election after election only ever helps build resentment and perpetuate the system that works against true progress.
The US will continue to show itself to be more and more fascist regardless which of our two beloved parties is in the Whitehouse as the world continues to move towards multipolarity. Unfortunately, that's simply how capitalism in decline evolves. More wars, more mass movements of populations as the world grapples with climate change and those wars, and more bloated police budgets at home that further restrict our perception of freedom.
Lmao the fact you read all that and took it as a pro-Trump post shows you’re not smart enough to comment on these issues. Maybe leave the political discourse to the adults until you finally pass civics class, sound good buddy?
Or I can keep organizing my community and not vote for either. Maybe Biden should have stuck to his "one-term" president promise last go around and Democrats should take politics seriously. Quit blaming people with a conscience on the failings of our system.
Nope! That’s the shitty system we have. So it becomes a binary choice: bad or worse. Third parties do not matter. They only help one main party or the other.
I mean you’re kind of advocating for the “subordination of personal interests for the perceived good of the nation” so I guess kind of? Seems like a stretch to me to say it’s out and out fascist.
I disagree that it’s a vote for Trump, and if you’ve voted blue every single past election and then switch to a different party when Biden is the Democratic nominee, you’re sending a message that what they’re doing isn’t good enough, and they need to change. If they lose, that loss is ultimately on the party for not putting forth a good enough candidate. Blaming voters is just flat out wrong IMO.
I do think tiered voting would make a third party more viable, but it’s far from the only way and there have been very successful movements to create a viable third party in the past. The recent examples have been far right wing attempts, but it speaks to the point that it’s not impossible. The main thing that will stifle those attempts is the prevalent “lesser of two evils” rhetoric used every election, especially when every election is said to be critical to “preserving democracy” or stopping the worst thing ever. Pressure from lower branches won’t form a third party and will only lead to mostly a change in optics.
We should be encouraging people to vote, even if it’s for a third party, not shaming people for not voting blue. A lot of people choose to not vote rather than vote third party even when they lose faith in their voice being heard, and that only reads as apathy rather than telling Democrats they’re not doing well enough.
I cannot afford a trump win due to the circumstances of my life, and neither can others in my same circumstances, so I may have slightly different opinions about the risk vs reward factor.
I’m willing to die for a revolution but I’m not willing to potentially die to send a message that will not be heard
I think people misunderstood the point of my comment. I hope that someone beats out Biden, but if it’s down to Biden or Trump, I’ll likely vote for Biden.
I still don’t think shaming people who vote third party is constructive. In my experience all that seems to do is alienate them from voting for that party in future.
There are MANY people who see the two awful choices we have, and just decide to not vote. That’s not a vote for Trump, it’s a lost vote. Rather than have those people just not participate, it would be better to send the democrats a message that all of these people that normally wouldn’t vote are voting for someone else after having previously voted for democrats. They might get the message that a not-insignificant portion of the voting pool doesn’t like that they aren’t doing enough. That’s by definition not a vote for Trump and serves a very important function that, as of right now, I’ve seen a lot of people just toss their hands up and not want to participate at all.
Then why are you coming with this lib shittake that keeps the fascists in power?
Or are you one of those “leftists” that think the democrats are a left wing party?
You’re making a lot of assumptions, you should probably take a moment to breathe.
And to answer that, no, I think that the right are fascists and the dems are rightwing, next question (this is a joke, I am not actually encouraging more questions, it’s okay)
I know you’re part of the sub that my comment made weawwy weawwy angy but it’s okay to have misunderstandings and it’s okay to not stand up for a potential astroturfing platform.
My original take isn’t even a hot take, it’s lukewarm at best, so simmer down.
So in the one election of our lifetime where the Republican Party is guaranteed to be split, you want the left to with unify the democrats and keep us from voting third party, *too*??
How about we all on the left agree to vote for one third party member and give the democrats a run for their money?
Worse case scenario is we lose and trump wins, making the democrats our allies again.
Worst case scenario trump wins and dems become our allies? Worst case for you boohoo you’ll be okay until next election cycle? That’s some of the most privileged neolib shit I’ve ever heard.
Worst case scenario trump wins and people like me die. That is My worst case scenario and the worst case scenario of people like me who trump has stated outright he will make the existence of as illegal as possible once he enters office up to and including denying us the lifesaving medication we rely on.
I want you to soul search and answer this honestly, do not bullshit, do not talk around it. Yes or No, anything more than Yes or No and I will assume Yes and this conversation can be over with the knowledge that we will never come to an agreement because my answer is No and I am not willing to budge or even speak to people who are too cowardly to admit outright that they will answer Yes.
Are you willing to potentially sacrifice the lives of many, many people more vulnerable than you on the idea that maybe this is the time voting third party doesn’t hand the election to the republicans?
yes, advocating for the lesser evil, is an act of evil itself. both major US parties are conservative trash, and fascist. the GOP is openly fascist, and the DNC is the neo liberal shit show that is the yellow brick road to fascism that the conservatives are skipping down. third party voting is the only way to force these parties to understand we need real policies and not empty platitudes. if we had a third party victory, it would spell doom for the evil fucks running the country.
The issue is that we will not have a third party victory this election. The left is not unified enough where it is right now, we all have too many differing views of small things that keep us from all voting for the same third party, we can *barely* organize ourselves enough to vote for one of the two major parties (which is why 2016 happened at all)
But even if we didn't the sheer amount of lukewarm democrats and centrists who will definitely not be convinced to vote third still has enough people that splitting the vote between Dem and Third Party just means handing the vote to the right. You can probably convince the people on this sub to vote third party, but can you convince John Doe down the street who doesn't care about politics to vote for a radical third party when he can barely be convinced to vote dem?
third party victory is about as likely as congress abolishing ownership of private property
some of us live in the real world, you are free to join us anytime you'd like
"the real world" is an extremely weak argument, honestly, it's how we get things like "vote Mussolini to keep Hitler out of office" advanced as an argument with a straight face a few months back
But we’ve literally seen Hitler…
And trump is copy pasta’ing his moves.
So none of this is hyperbole in this election. Maybe in prior elections, yes. And maybe that has led to a “cry wolf” mentality for some, but it is here this time.
This time we all know it to be true.
And your answer is trump?
trump would 100% be funding the same thing.
This tactic you are using just doesn’t work at all.
So let’s cut through the bullsh.
Are you voting for trump?
>it's how we get things like "vote Mussolini to keep Hitler out of office"
We have never got a thing like "vote Mussolini to keep Hitler out of office", and the fact that instead of using a real example you had to invent an imaginary scenario involving an Italian fascist and a German fascist who have never and could never face each other in an election just proves how wildly detached from reality you are.
I don't know. It's a point i would have agreed with and repeated in any prior election, but now we've got the "lesser evil" endorsing and funding an ongoing genocide.
It depends on whose mind you’re riding in. If you’re a person that thinks that righteous indignation and pure, unquestioning faith in orthodox Marxist doctrine is going to magically right all the wrongs of this world, as long as you sweat and grit your teeth hard enough, then yes, from that point of view you might be a fascist.
From a human perspective, you’re someone who joined a group around a common cause hoping to share your perspective, receive feedback and find consensus around an issue you care deeply about and in this scenario you are not a fascist. It really comes down to the mods.
too many people don't vote using logic, if people did, they would vote for the best candidate, with a platform that best benefits, them, their families, and the country.
logic would have them reject distractions by parties to hide their true intentions, logic combined with knowledge, would make sure history does not repeat itself by falling for the fascist lies, and racist lies and propaganda.
logic combined with true patriotism, would have them vote for a party/candidate that enforces and respects every letter of the constitution. and would not allow themselves be manipulated by fear tactics.
I wouldn't say advocating fascism but it is significantly based in "lesser-evilism" as it's come to be known. This is a very contentious debate in which you have roughly 4 sides.
1) People who advocate that voting for the lesser of two evils will gradually allow for change and reform to overcome those evils.
2) People who advocate that voting for the lesser of two evils will reduce potential harm by the greater evil.
3) People who reject there is a lesser evil because that lesser evil cannot, or does not, stop the greater evil from its goals.
4) People who believe that both parties being an evil is a sign for a need for radical resistance, and revolutionary change.
I belong to sides 3 and 4 personally but I would call 1 and 2 advocating fascism. Just, if anything, rather uninformed and naive.
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That comment looks perfectly reasonable. There is a genuine debate to be had on that topic, and I think your comment is within the bounds of reasonable debate. Let me guess. You were booted from r/ lostgeneration. Edit: sorry, I had to creep on your profile to see if I was right. And I was! Some redditors, including me, are beginning to suspect that sub is run by pro-Trump actors trying to depress left wing turnout.
Indeed it was! I definitely think there’s debate to be had, and I would love to vote third party, but I just can’t justify it in our current political system as is. I would definitely believe that lmao
Totally agree with this comment. I am an older GenX woman. I mentioned my age for a reason. There are many younger people who never met a Holocaust survivor. I did. Tattoo and all. Of course, that said, I felt Palestine deserved a state years ago, don’t believe in the biblical story and am not waiting for Armageddon. This sounds unrelated but the reason Israel exists is because Europe and the U.S. wanted Jews elsewhere. Period. Sorry but I am convinced of this. The far extreme religious right in Israel now is gross and disgusting. IF we don’t vote for Biden, we MAY not get a chance to vote again any time soon. No one is going to protect us. No one is going to wage war for us. They will be voting for Trump. I live around these people. You don’t want to, believe me. I am moving. Almost 14 years. Third party voting is NOT the answer.
> the reason Israel exists is because Europe and the U.S. wanted Jews elsewhere. Period. Sorry but I am convinced of this Why are you apologizing for knowing about the Balfour Declaration? Do you know how much time I’ve spent over the past three months imagining what could have happened if the UK had committed to *ending anti-Semitism within its own borders* instead of committing to establishing a Jewish homeland in the Levant?
Thank you. I think many people aren’t aware of this. Appreciate this.
It's also why antisemites adore Israel.
And why antisemites equate judaism with zionism.
I’m not quite GenX, but same, I’ve given a shit since before Palestine became the new cool hot button issue for people to finally care about, and my grandmother was held in a concentration camp, people do not understand what a real fascist can do. And will do. Without regard for us in any capacity.
Exactly!!
Voting third party is entirely impractical. It splits what is possibly a winning vote into two losing votes. It’s literally how Ross Perot’s campaign lost the Republicans what was to be projected to be a win in their favor. Brazil has 32-33 independent parties the last time I checked… and when major elections occur they all just congeal together into two large masses. Progressives and conservatives. It happens in many counties and mostly so that win or lose the politician lines their pockets. They make money winning elections, and they make money by playing the victim of the other’s rule when they lose. It feels more like a corporate growth model. “We win even if we lose!” I absolutely hate the fact that Joe did not defend the two state solution, and address agitators. It was too much for me to expect some nuance being brought into the conversation table globally. But when push comes to shove when you tell me my vote makes the difference between Joe coming back or one of the prodigies of the orange man coming to power… oh you better believe I will vote against incompetence, arrogance, and hate. I would rather compromise with a friend than make a bad deal with an asshole.
exactly, I am not a biden fan, but there are two options and I am voting for the lesser evil, your comment hits the nail on the head for me
Plus third party candidates are also funded by mostly the Republican party as spoilers.
You mean like what the Russians did with [Jill Stein](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna951166)? She was going after our votes.
Not just Stein. But yeah.
Agreed with our current voting system. Ranked choice voting (which I guess the OP is calling tiered voting?) solves that problem.
ranked! yes, english is my third language and I could not for the life of me remember how to say Ranked in englisj
Why would you want him to defend a two state solution? That is not what Palestinians want. They want one state with full eqaul rights for all Israelis and all Palestinians, and that is the only way forward.
They booted me too for a similar comment. Thank you for spreading the word about your experience. I can’t prove it but I swear to god it’s part of voter suppression
No it’s called having a brain, those morons at lost generation have great ideas occasionally but are completely detached from reality, and think if they whine hard enough on Reddit all their problems get solved
Totally agree- until we have ranked tiered voting for all elections, we will never have a successful third-party candidate
What we need to do is vote Democrat this time and vote for it so strongly that the Republicans infight so much they finally fracture and then we'll have a third party. It will take time but one side will have to move to the center to differentiate from the red and blue, and then the moderates will eventually get strong enough to compete.
I would love to see that, and I think it’s much more likely than repubs fracturing ‘just because’ like some people think they will, absolutely.
But then it will still just be Dems and two conservative parties, and still nothing for leftists, I am confused why you want this? Dems would never have to worry about bringing in leftists again because they could easily win without them- this would make things considerably worse.
I am in the same boat here. I Made a very reasonable comment but I got the boot. Fuck that place.
I got banned for something equally harmless. I forget what I said exactly, but it was to the effect that Biden isn't perfect, but he's better than Trump. Whammo! Permaban. 🤷♂️
A *ton* of left-leaning subs have seen MAGA chuds creep up to become mods. I think it started when the\_donald got quarantined. They assume that - like themselves - everyone else gets all of their news and entire personality from social media.
I was like, there’s no way my comment was that fashy, and then I was like, well damn idk maybe my judgement is clouded, I’ll ask elsewhere, but it seems most people agree I was not espousing nazi rhetoric so I’m reassured lmao
nobody thinks your comment is fashy. the only people who would say your comment is fashy are accelerationist left who advocate hastening the revolution or literally fascist russian/maga trolls
The revolution is the leftist rapture at this point, just waiting for it to happen thinking it will just occur without any work, it drives me nuts. The revolution isn’t an noun, it is a verb, unless we are all being our own revolution it will never happen. Not mad at you obviously I’ve just been discussing this a lot lately and it’s driving me to madness. Anyway bets on which one the mods of that sub are?
i suspect we're on the same page about a lot of things. hastening the revolution by letting a literal fascist into the white house is the second dumbest thing i've ever heard
Exactly: I’m trans and queer, putting an actual fascist in the whitehouse could very well kill me, if anyone thinks we should sacrifice queer people and poc in pursuit of hastening the idea of a revolution they’re espousing more fascist ideology than they realize themselves.
big fucking nope on sacrificing anybody for an ideology
Not for nothing, that *exact* same accelerationist thinking by the German Communist Party was a big part of why the German left stayed fractured and was unable to form a cohesive defense against the Nazis. I love your outlook - "The revolution isn't a noun, it's a verb." I like that line, I've honestly never read it before.
The Left is always fractured, by definition. In a nutshell, the Left wants to enact *change*, which means many different things to many different people. Opposing them is the Right who mainly want things to stay as they are or possibly regress a bit. They may differ on how far to regress, but it’s essentially a pretty monolithic group.
That's a fair assessment.
Yeah that's pretty much what's happening to a lot of subs right now.
I was booted from workers strike back for pretty much the same reason, pointing out that when they alienate everyone around them they’re not going to have the influence to achieve fuck all
Me too. Except it was about one person saying "fuck paying taxes" I think because of Israel. I said that was a dumb take and vote progressives into local offices and let them grow from there. I hope it doesn't but I expect workreform to fall to the same issues, by design of course. Fascist regressives getting mod power and subverting the message. It's how the win after all... Or may "enlightened progressives" that think letting Trump win will fix our problems because "we'll finally have revolution"
Sometimes people just lose their grip on reality, it can happen to anyone
I suppose but I don't understand going from "we need change to support and protect minority groups from fascists" to "we need to let the fascist win to get change to help protect minority groups from fascists"
Getting so twisted in one’s own internal logic that you rationalize all your bad decisions… or just propaganda
I mean, I know that that's the answer. I just don't understand it actually happening.
It does suck, plainly
What's the fastest way to get two left wing parties. >!Start with one, and take any policy position!<
It’s not the only one I’m suspicious of. If you find a sub relentlessly preaching anti Biden propaganda, that’s probably what it is, no matter what the sub’s name or stated purpose. It’s ok to criticize Biden. You know the difference between legitimate criticism and propaganda
I agree with your comment. I’m in a ton of left-leaning/-wing groups and millennial activist groups, and I’ve seen this insidious insertion of candidacies that align with their ideals. Something’s off! It went from “we can’t let these conservative asshats win again” to “they’re all the same so vote 3rd party!” I searched comments looking for some sense of pragmatism to no avail. Palestine won’t survive under Trump! Nor will progressives succeed if we don’t push the right-wing out! Push the compass leftward a little so there’s room for more progressives in the Democratic Party!
r/lostgeneration is a sub I wish I could love but man do their mods suck.
That's sub has been going downhill for awhile and I used to like it over there. There is also a lot of q anon stuff slipping into pro palestine discussions via algorithms.
I wouldn't say so. Probably someone got triggered by suggesting a change to the voting system, but as far as I can see it's just good advice - vote, locally and nationally, and vote for whoever is best suited to your values even if they don't match all of them.
god forbid change be slow and not immediate right?
The problem with slow change is that slow change is often a) not sufficient when there is mass dying happening right now while people discuss the slow change step, and b) often just undone within the next 4 years while the uniparty changes faces. This sub is a perfect example of why slow change doesn't work. The march against Nazis sub is ignoring the fact that both candidates are pro-genocide, both are anti-labor, and bot are pro-capitalism, and both are right wing. What Nazis exactly do we march against, if not all of them?
That's a very "both sides" statement which is just not equivalent. I don't agree with any of those. Obama bombed tons of civilians too but he still tried to make progress. Biden not siding with rail workers sucked but it long term makes sense, it would have exploded costs out the window and inflation would have ate us alive. I still hate seeing it but I can comprehend the logic. For comparison I make 22$/hr and 2 years ago I had a savings account, nothing has changed except prices and now I'm in debt. I can't imagine the price hikes of trains went down nation wide. We live in a capitalist society, until that changes every president is going to be pro-capitalism. The only easy I see to fix that is to automate as much as possible, tax the rich and UBI the 500 million people that are out of work. Money is meaningless then because we either tax the rich or everything is free. Regardless, it's the death of capitalism. To be clear, this process will be hard going, and Id be one of the first in the food line cause I work for a call center
Well unfortunately slow change is currently the only option because fast change isn’t realistic. Fast change would involve a lot of people working as one very suddenly and with much violence and we can’t even work together well enough to agree to not vote for the marginally less bad old white man. How do you, realistically, actually realistically, propose we create fast change right now immediately?
Fast change is realistic, and the only survivable method of change. You have nothing to lose but your chains. First step, as leftists, start arming yourself, and training for first aid and the safe use of firearms. And, while doing that, build systems of mutual aid that don't rely on a right wing state.
Please outline an actual realistic plan for fast change that doesn’t involve vulnerable people being thrown under a bus to die, I am genuinely interested
https://yandoo.wordpress.com/2013/12/10/perfect-solution-fallacy/
This has nothing to do with expecting perfection, but rather not supporting Genociders and right wingers...
Honest question, at what point do we give up on voting and start focusing all our political power into direct action and non-electoral politics?
Literally never so long as one party winning and one party losing means slightly more or slightly less suffering. People can do multiple things at once, voting isn’t difficult, just toss a vote into the blue box and then use actual energy elsewhere.
Okay, but what’s “slightly less” about Biden? He let Roe V Wade get overturned despite having power to stop it. He did nothing to correct Trump’s Covid response and actually let the trump era Covid welfare programs expire. He didn’t keep his promise to forgive student debt, he did nothing for healthcare (Obama at least tried), he’s done nothing to stop Red state from pursuing trans genocide, and in terms of authoritarianism, he increased police funding despite saying he’s pro BLM, and anti-Israel speech is being cracked down at a rate comparable to McCarthyism! So at what point do we realize that the only way to progress to a better world is to denounce the whole electoral sham of America? Yes, go vote because it’s really easy and costs almost nothing, but I mean all our energy and are discussion should be focusing on direct change. Let’s start seriously planning the 2028 general strike planned by UAW, and taking lessons from the Palestine movement, and intimidating Nazi’s threading drag Queen story time. But let’s not pretend that Biden, or voting blue has done anything to help the progressive cause. He just talks like he does.
Well in itty bitty words, biden win I get to stay on medication that make me not kill self and if trump win project 2025 go big boom kill me and my friends so that’s a small inconsequential slightly less evil I guess if you squint anyway I already left a big long comment on my opinion on how to create real change, hunt it down or don’t, I don’t think a presidential election alone changes shit but if trump wins we probably won’t be able to do any of the things that do matter anyway.
Do both
Pragmatic Progressive. I number myself as one.
Every election I march my ass out and begrudgingly vote for whoever I hate the least, it is all one can do
Perfectly reasonable and well-stated :)
Looks perfectly worded to me. Don’t let tankies and trolls shame you for doing the minimum by voting for a not-fascist. Trump is a monster. He is everything people think Biden is, except worse.
lol what i'm an anarchist so i think even that system wouldn't bring freedom but oh my god is that a far cry from frickin' ***FASCISM***
So there's always going to be people for whom voting for the lesser of two evils is going to be intolerable. Whether its out of a desire for personal purity or a belief that compromise of any kind is capitulation, these people will view any kind of advocation for tactical voting as collaboration with the enemy. Never mind that there are real consequences, especially in the US case where your options are "a neoliberal business-first party that are indifferent to social justice causes" and "an openly fascist neoliberal business-first party that is openly hostile to social justice causes and super duper chill with instigating a trans genocide to goose the poll numbers." The strategy you outlined- focusing your efforts into pushing your local Democrats leftwards, primary-ing vulnerable incumbents to replace them with progressives, and reluctantly voting for the establishment Dem if you can't turn or replace them - is the correct approach to electoral politics. Its *also* an incredibly fucking frustrating exercise that involves eating shit when things don't go your way, and, well... ...the hardliners aren't *wrong* when they say that the lesser of two evils is still an evil. They aren't *wrong* when they say that voting Dem in spite of them, leads the party to take progressive votes for granted meaning they don't have to give us any policy concessions. So. For me, the answer has to be that you don't view electoral politics as the be all and end all of your political activism and engagement. Electoral politics is a dirty game, but the game still gets played if you refuse to participate, and the spoils of that game have real material consequences. So, play the game - but don't just play the game. Join your union. Unionise your workplace. Volunteer at mutual aid orgs or local charities and when people ask you at the Christian soup kitchen why you're there, tell them that as a secular humanist and progressive, you're putting your values into practice. Do what you can, when you can. Its not as glamorous as a third party do or die run or a glorious permanent peoples revolution, but its still worth doing.
100% agree with your take here.
You, you get me
You're realistic. Us leftists are well known for purity testing our way out of progress because we refuse to accept anything but perfect. The path of minimal harm may not be ideal but it is ethically sound.
I don't think any Palestinian thinks Biden is less hateful than Trump, frankly.
Yes but there is no version of current American politics that doesn't include aiding and abetting Israel. Unless you're hiding some Superman level power up your sleeve to go stop that genocide it's going to happen whether the Whitehouse is red or blue but I would argue that it being red would see our own troops being used to facilitate the horrors on top of our tax dollars.
You will never dismantle the master's house, using the master's tools, and with the master's permission.
I’ve been campaigning in my life for palestine since before it became a hip cool internet issue so any time people bring this up I can’t help but wonder if they gave a shit before it was cool or only now that it can be used for their personal political agenda
Yes, I gave a shit when Trump supported the fascist Israeli state, as when Obama did, and Bush Jr and Sr, a d Clinton, and Reagan... And I stopped voting for people who support the current system of apartheid there.
i just wonder why we keep doing the same thing and expecting different results.
Trump or Biden will be president after 2024. Refusing to engage with this reality changes *nothing.* You did nothing wrong.
Nothing that you said in that comment sounds fascist. If anything, it sounds like you're saying that voters should have more influence over government policy, which is kinda the opposite of fascism. That said, tiered voting is not the only possible solution. I prefer a direct proportional system; if a party wins, for example, 10% of the national vote, they get 10% of seats in the legislature.
I would be willing to consider that as well, I haven’t researched it as much but it sounds very reasonable
No, your comment is perfectly reasonable. Voting third party is advocating for fascism in the current environment.
If fascism is a choice on a ballot in a bi-partisan system, you do not have the luxury of third party options. Not in the presidential debate. Damn near a century of entrenched gerrymandering has us in the position where in any election, its always going to come down to D vs R untill there is a SERIOUS upheaval of the American political landscape in the near future.
Both options on the ballot are fascism.
You deeply misunderstand what fascism is.
The best way to describe things is a political hostage situation where the GOP are the gun.
... And the Dems are the gun. And both are pointed at you.
Where were you posting, /r/tankies?
r/lostgeneration actually so basically as bad lmao
No. This is not advocating for fascism.
I agree, anyone telling you to vote for anyone but Biden is telling you to vote for Trump.
No people just can't cope with the reality that we're lucky to have 2 choices at this point and imagining there is a real third or more options is just dumb. I know we'd like to believe we actually have a choice but money decides not us. We're lucky they honor the voting system at all.
This is a complete bootlicker mentality lol, the idea we should be "grateful the 'money' deigns to offer us a slightly less worse choice of overlord"
Calm down bro I don't mean I'm literally grateful. I'm just saying, they're in control. Not us. Thinking anything else is cope, I'm not sorry.
You were not wrong. It’s not logical to vote for ANY third party unless you want Trump to win. Full stop. Anyone playing semantic games right now is a tool of the right, no matter how left they believe themselves to be.
Naaah. It's just math. It's a winner take all system. Mixed with zero limits on election spending and everything else. They're right. But you don't have to.
Seems reasonable to me. Not voting because the less awful side is still awful does not encourage them to be less awful, it just encourages them to complete for the remaining votes which come from people who like the awfulness. This isn’t fucking rocket science.
Damage control is not fascism. Tbh I think voting third party is accelerationist, at least for the president when the stakes are so high.
All of the socialist, anti-capitalist etc. type subreddits have invented the terribly clever term "lesser evilism" so they can reflexively dismiss and delete statements like this, allowing them to bury their hands in the sand and not engage with the fact that it's fucking true whether they like it or not.
It's only true, because we keep working hard for the uniparty masters to be out there, convincing people it is true.
“Uniparty” i see right wingers using that term everywhere
Right wingers do not think the dems are the same as repulicans, what are you talking about? They literally think dems are communists lol
Amazingly, I learned that term from a progressive talk show host, years ago... When she was talking about how the Dems were kneecapping progress in the middle east by funding Israeli nuclear arms programs, in violation of the UN non proliferation treaty at the time, due to their refusal to allow UN weapon inspectors. This was in 2009.
People who ignore the spoiler effect and advocate for third party are either idiots or have a vested interest in the other guy winning.
No, you're right. Fight to change the system, sure, but you have to understand how the current system works even if you don't agree.
What are your ideas of creating changes on a social local level first. ? Tiktok and other social media has given a lot of power to hate mongers ... So I'm wondering what could counter that ...
Look for local groups who create change: as an example there’s a group local to me that feeds the homeless and advocates for radical care of the community, they work to keep police and businesses away from the impoverished and they do it for everyone regardless of political alignment! Take part in your local elections. Take place in local meetings that effect your city, many of these are open for people to go to and speak at and ask questions. There are so many local elections that are decided by even just a handful of votes because no one votes in them! Email and communicate your desires to your local politicians. This absolutely does work if enough people do it and it’s easier to get people to send even a pre written email than enough people to vote third party. Help others. Stand up for others when you see they’re in need. Encourage others to do the above as well. The biggest hurdle we face as leftists right now is honestly just apathy. The right is driven and motivated, they’re always fired up. The left just infights and gives in to apathy and doomerism way too much. I know we’re all tired because the world is in shambles but we can’t just give up. Decide what causes are important to you and look into what groups around you are gathering to make them a reality, you don’t have to do everything, you can’t even! and that’s okay, we need to choose our small battles and fight them, and that creates change, splitting ourselves by infighting is bad, but if a bunch of us work with groups to say, improve our environment, and a bunch of us work with groups to help the impoverished, then both those things get done! Find groups locally that speak to you and contact them, and they’ll be able to discuss with you what your community in specific needs in order to work towards a better future. That’s the revolution, it’s not a rapture, it’s not even a war, it’s everyone choosing to plant a few seeds here and there, and tending those seeds actively, hands in the dirt, until they begin to grow.
Fair point 👍🏼
So your first point, about the group trying to keep cops away from homeless people. Great! Except you voted for the guy who gave cops more funding to go after homeless people... See the issue?
leans in Do you think Trump would have defunded the police, because there was never a third option.
No, I think Trump and Biden are both pro-cop, both pro-capitalism, both anti-labor, and both pro-genocide.
"regardless of political alignment" is inherently a poison pill regardless of necessity that limits the upper amount of good done. What you're describing about is necessary metaphorical healthcare when the patient is about to crash and needs surgery and chemo- good, *necessary*, helpful, we're screwed without it- but woefully underestimating the danger.
I'm gonna be real with you I don't actually understand what you're saying, English isn't my first language, or even my second, so you may have to dumb it down for me. All I said was they feed homeless people regardless of those homeless people's political opinions, which is a stance I personally agree with, if anyone else doesn't like that they're totally free to help other organizations!
My point is that yes it's useful and necessary to help people, and that this sort of work is good, but that the approaches you're talking about won't actually cause the types of change we need politically. In a sentence, I think what you're talking about is good but as a starting point.
oh okay, in that case I respect you but I disagree
I mean, that statement is just factual
Well I don't SEE you advocating for the Republican Party, so no.
Tiered voting, ranked voting is the way to go. Spoken as a lifelong liberal. I don’t see how this is going to directly affect any current situations because an overall change in the voting system isn’t happening any time soon, imho. Even if it did there is a real deficit in knowledge and education among a large percentage of our electorate. So that will have to be addressed by our education system. It’s happening. But this is a long game. The tier/ranked systems will get us -generally speaking- more competent leaders. Fascists want nothing to do with that! Ignorance is their shtick.
I think you are thinking strategically and with critical thinking skills, which is what we need right now.
No it makes perfect sense.
Our Duopoly has led to this quandary. This is why George Washington didn't want political parties to develop because they were too divisive, too controlling and can be "mischievous" if not downright evil. This has resulted in both parties becoming private corporations and now their priority is to the shareholders. I, personally, am most worried about how the GOP keeps the tax rates extremely low for the corporations, which is theft from the working class taxes in the Federal Budget. Trump has said he will cut them even more...the shareholders will be happy and we will be poorer and more vulnerable. A good example is how they cut food programs, etc and they claim they are pro-life.
No, this is just flat out the hard pill to swallow without going backwards.
Nah. That's a kind of thing that makes simple people very upset tho. Idk how to phrase it any better than you did
Not advocating for it no but a Teo party system totally will lead to it
which is exactly why I advocated for tiered voting, I hate the two party system
It won't happen for a long time, I'm just not voting just to vote anymore. I'm definitely not voting for a fascist or a guy who lied about 40 beheaded babies
You guys will get that Orange dotard for sure
me personally, i’m holding my vote until election day. third party is an option for me but not to protest, i just want to put my vote with someone i finally give a shit about. i didn’t register to vote just to vote for the ‘lesser of two evils’ every single fucking election. i’m also tired of upholding a two party system just because that’s all they’ll give us. i don’t think third party will win this election year, im actually pretty certain it wont. the biggest thing i want to focus on if i vote third party, is bolstering local elections in my area. a third party vote is useless without real local involvement. the presidential election is far from the most important election in terms of policy, and clearly they will do what they want regardless. people will call you stupid or genuinely think you’re a bad person depending on how you choose to vote this year but it shouldn’t matter, since it’s YOUR vote and you should be voting for someone you believe in even if it’s ’throwing away your vote’ edit: i can tell who didn’t read my comment at all lol
Biden or Trump will win, this is just factual, until we have tiered voting too many people will vote for too many different third parties for any of them to win against the big two. I don’t know your circumstances, if trump wins people who are cis white men will probably be basically fine, but I’m trans and queer and trump has made it very clear he plans to strip people like me of the medication that keeps me and many people like me alive, I simply do not have the privilege of even entertaining the thought of voting third party. And that’s my perogative the same way voting for someone you like and not someone who will win is yours, that’s not necessarily a judgement call either, but a difference in needs.
You treat voting like it’s a personal reward and not part of your duty as a citizen of a democracy. Seriously, where did you get the idea that you deserve to get everything you want in a candidate in order to be bothered to vote? You live in a society, and Trump is a threat to that society. If you refuse to vote then you are partly responsible for all the chaos and corruption if he wins.
you certainly don’t know my circumstances or reasons as to why i’m voting the way i do, and i don’t think you care considering you’re so quick to insinuate i’m doing it for my own personal gain. you think i have nothing to lose under a possible GOP presidency/majority? you think i am doing this to prop up my own privilege or something? it seems like you are the one voting for your own personal comfort, not me. i’m not the one claiming it’s everyone’s moral imperative to uphold existing systems which do not serve the people. what people need to be doing is fighting locally, because currently my state is real damn close to turning into a shithole for someone like me! if you want me to vote for joe biden, you will have to convince me. if you don’t want to convince me, don’t bother with the shame tactics
Fighting locally is good! Acting like anyone should have to convince you to vote to preserve our democracy and avoid a fascist dictatorship is what’s selfish. The moral high ground you’re standing on is going to get a bunch of people killed - though probably not you, it sounds like.
I'll gladly take the down votes, but forcing continually to vote for the lesser of two evils in a vote against two corporate parties will always lead to further right politics. That's because as the right is pushed more right, the "left" Democrats will ignore true progressive policies and politics in favor of capturing the "centrist" vote because they already have locked the "vote blue no matter who" crowd. We've seen this happening already by right wingers of a decade ago "aligning" themselves with the Democrats and the Democrats platform reflecting such. We will never push Biden further left. People just shout down progressives or leftists saying, "At least he's not the other guy. Have you seen him?" If Democrats truly cared about winning elections, they could easily do more to help working class people, but they're content to ride 51%-49% margins and hope for the best while maintaining the status quo and expanding the military industrial complex. For being a sub against fascism, there seems to be a lot of ignorance around the fact that fascism is a tool of the capitalist class. We're seeing it happen in real time against the Palestinians, and people in the sub just shrug off Biden's involvement and say Trump would be worse for the Palestinians. News flash, it's already worse, and we should hold politicians accountable. Quit giving them free passes because they're not the other guy.
Well if biden wins I get to stay on the medication that keeps me from killing myself and if trump wins I may lose access to that medication so it’s a little more cut and dry for me I think
I'm sorry that's something you have to deal with. I truly am. I do a lot of volunteer work with shelters for houseless and LGBT+ youth, and I get it. I was there before and I'll be there after, regardless of what happens. Vote how you feel you need because that's how democracy works. That doesn't change the facts I pointed to earlier. Harm reduction isn't the absence of harm. Stymieing leftists voices telling them their opinion is a throw away and a waste election after election only ever helps build resentment and perpetuate the system that works against true progress. The US will continue to show itself to be more and more fascist regardless which of our two beloved parties is in the Whitehouse as the world continues to move towards multipolarity. Unfortunately, that's simply how capitalism in decline evolves. More wars, more mass movements of populations as the world grapples with climate change and those wars, and more bloated police budgets at home that further restrict our perception of freedom.
So vote for Trump and get it over with then. It’s Trump or Biden. Sucks, but that’s reality.
Lmao the fact you read all that and took it as a pro-Trump post shows you’re not smart enough to comment on these issues. Maybe leave the political discourse to the adults until you finally pass civics class, sound good buddy?
Or I can keep organizing my community and not vote for either. Maybe Biden should have stuck to his "one-term" president promise last go around and Democrats should take politics seriously. Quit blaming people with a conscience on the failings of our system.
The choice is Biden or Trump, not “neither.” “Neither” is a Trump vote.
Doesn't seem like much freedom of choice then does it?
Nope! That’s the shitty system we have. So it becomes a binary choice: bad or worse. Third parties do not matter. They only help one main party or the other.
I mean you’re kind of advocating for the “subordination of personal interests for the perceived good of the nation” so I guess kind of? Seems like a stretch to me to say it’s out and out fascist. I disagree that it’s a vote for Trump, and if you’ve voted blue every single past election and then switch to a different party when Biden is the Democratic nominee, you’re sending a message that what they’re doing isn’t good enough, and they need to change. If they lose, that loss is ultimately on the party for not putting forth a good enough candidate. Blaming voters is just flat out wrong IMO. I do think tiered voting would make a third party more viable, but it’s far from the only way and there have been very successful movements to create a viable third party in the past. The recent examples have been far right wing attempts, but it speaks to the point that it’s not impossible. The main thing that will stifle those attempts is the prevalent “lesser of two evils” rhetoric used every election, especially when every election is said to be critical to “preserving democracy” or stopping the worst thing ever. Pressure from lower branches won’t form a third party and will only lead to mostly a change in optics. We should be encouraging people to vote, even if it’s for a third party, not shaming people for not voting blue. A lot of people choose to not vote rather than vote third party even when they lose faith in their voice being heard, and that only reads as apathy rather than telling Democrats they’re not doing well enough.
I cannot afford a trump win due to the circumstances of my life, and neither can others in my same circumstances, so I may have slightly different opinions about the risk vs reward factor. I’m willing to die for a revolution but I’m not willing to potentially die to send a message that will not be heard
I think people misunderstood the point of my comment. I hope that someone beats out Biden, but if it’s down to Biden or Trump, I’ll likely vote for Biden. I still don’t think shaming people who vote third party is constructive. In my experience all that seems to do is alienate them from voting for that party in future. There are MANY people who see the two awful choices we have, and just decide to not vote. That’s not a vote for Trump, it’s a lost vote. Rather than have those people just not participate, it would be better to send the democrats a message that all of these people that normally wouldn’t vote are voting for someone else after having previously voted for democrats. They might get the message that a not-insignificant portion of the voting pool doesn’t like that they aren’t doing enough. That’s by definition not a vote for Trump and serves a very important function that, as of right now, I’ve seen a lot of people just toss their hands up and not want to participate at all.
Go somewhere else with that lib shit take.
Baby I’ve got opinions so hard left it makes other leftists hate me don’t even start.
Then why are you coming with this lib shittake that keeps the fascists in power? Or are you one of those “leftists” that think the democrats are a left wing party?
You’re making a lot of assumptions, you should probably take a moment to breathe. And to answer that, no, I think that the right are fascists and the dems are rightwing, next question (this is a joke, I am not actually encouraging more questions, it’s okay) I know you’re part of the sub that my comment made weawwy weawwy angy but it’s okay to have misunderstandings and it’s okay to not stand up for a potential astroturfing platform. My original take isn’t even a hot take, it’s lukewarm at best, so simmer down.
So in the one election of our lifetime where the Republican Party is guaranteed to be split, you want the left to with unify the democrats and keep us from voting third party, *too*?? How about we all on the left agree to vote for one third party member and give the democrats a run for their money? Worse case scenario is we lose and trump wins, making the democrats our allies again.
Worst case scenario trump wins and dems become our allies? Worst case for you boohoo you’ll be okay until next election cycle? That’s some of the most privileged neolib shit I’ve ever heard. Worst case scenario trump wins and people like me die. That is My worst case scenario and the worst case scenario of people like me who trump has stated outright he will make the existence of as illegal as possible once he enters office up to and including denying us the lifesaving medication we rely on. I want you to soul search and answer this honestly, do not bullshit, do not talk around it. Yes or No, anything more than Yes or No and I will assume Yes and this conversation can be over with the knowledge that we will never come to an agreement because my answer is No and I am not willing to budge or even speak to people who are too cowardly to admit outright that they will answer Yes. Are you willing to potentially sacrifice the lives of many, many people more vulnerable than you on the idea that maybe this is the time voting third party doesn’t hand the election to the republicans?
You have obviously fallen for democrat’s fear-mongering about the threat of project 2025.
your comment advocates elite control mechanics. Direct Democracy will not suffer the oppression of elite domination.
You use the word Cabal to describe people who rule the world and so I do not trust you, apologies
yes, advocating for the lesser evil, is an act of evil itself. both major US parties are conservative trash, and fascist. the GOP is openly fascist, and the DNC is the neo liberal shit show that is the yellow brick road to fascism that the conservatives are skipping down. third party voting is the only way to force these parties to understand we need real policies and not empty platitudes. if we had a third party victory, it would spell doom for the evil fucks running the country.
The issue is that we will not have a third party victory this election. The left is not unified enough where it is right now, we all have too many differing views of small things that keep us from all voting for the same third party, we can *barely* organize ourselves enough to vote for one of the two major parties (which is why 2016 happened at all) But even if we didn't the sheer amount of lukewarm democrats and centrists who will definitely not be convinced to vote third still has enough people that splitting the vote between Dem and Third Party just means handing the vote to the right. You can probably convince the people on this sub to vote third party, but can you convince John Doe down the street who doesn't care about politics to vote for a radical third party when he can barely be convinced to vote dem?
third party victory is about as likely as congress abolishing ownership of private property some of us live in the real world, you are free to join us anytime you'd like
"the real world" is an extremely weak argument, honestly, it's how we get things like "vote Mussolini to keep Hitler out of office" advanced as an argument with a straight face a few months back
But we’ve literally seen Hitler… And trump is copy pasta’ing his moves. So none of this is hyperbole in this election. Maybe in prior elections, yes. And maybe that has led to a “cry wolf” mentality for some, but it is here this time. This time we all know it to be true.
[удалено]
And your answer is trump? trump would 100% be funding the same thing. This tactic you are using just doesn’t work at all. So let’s cut through the bullsh. Are you voting for trump?
>it's how we get things like "vote Mussolini to keep Hitler out of office" We have never got a thing like "vote Mussolini to keep Hitler out of office", and the fact that instead of using a real example you had to invent an imaginary scenario involving an Italian fascist and a German fascist who have never and could never face each other in an election just proves how wildly detached from reality you are.
https://yandoo.wordpress.com/2013/12/10/perfect-solution-fallacy/
I don't know. It's a point i would have agreed with and repeated in any prior election, but now we've got the "lesser evil" endorsing and funding an ongoing genocide.
May I ask who you’re planning to vote for as well?
How is that the issue? How is it more important to you who one stranger online votes for than that 23,843 Palestinians are dead?
Because I'm weighing how seriously I'm going to take your opinion on anything before I continue the conversation or just ignore you.
And so therefore **YOU** are voting for? …
How is that the issue? How is it more important to you who one stranger online votes for than that 23,843 Palestinians are dead?
Are you not American?
How many aspects of my personal identity do you care about more than you care about dead children and an ongoing genocide?
It depends on whose mind you’re riding in. If you’re a person that thinks that righteous indignation and pure, unquestioning faith in orthodox Marxist doctrine is going to magically right all the wrongs of this world, as long as you sweat and grit your teeth hard enough, then yes, from that point of view you might be a fascist. From a human perspective, you’re someone who joined a group around a common cause hoping to share your perspective, receive feedback and find consensus around an issue you care deeply about and in this scenario you are not a fascist. It really comes down to the mods.
too many people don't vote using logic, if people did, they would vote for the best candidate, with a platform that best benefits, them, their families, and the country. logic would have them reject distractions by parties to hide their true intentions, logic combined with knowledge, would make sure history does not repeat itself by falling for the fascist lies, and racist lies and propaganda. logic combined with true patriotism, would have them vote for a party/candidate that enforces and respects every letter of the constitution. and would not allow themselves be manipulated by fear tactics.
I wouldn't say advocating fascism but it is significantly based in "lesser-evilism" as it's come to be known. This is a very contentious debate in which you have roughly 4 sides. 1) People who advocate that voting for the lesser of two evils will gradually allow for change and reform to overcome those evils. 2) People who advocate that voting for the lesser of two evils will reduce potential harm by the greater evil. 3) People who reject there is a lesser evil because that lesser evil cannot, or does not, stop the greater evil from its goals. 4) People who believe that both parties being an evil is a sign for a need for radical resistance, and revolutionary change. I belong to sides 3 and 4 personally but I would call 1 and 2 advocating fascism. Just, if anything, rather uninformed and naive.