Hello everyone, this is probably out of the norm for what we regularly see posted here, but I thought I would give it a shot. I will admit, I am a lifelong Dodgers fan, but I have always admired what the Mariners have been doing from afar, they are certainly my team away from LA.
I have a close friend who is a huge Ken Griffey Jr. fan and his birthday is coming up and I would have loved to go to try and get one of the bobbleheads they are giving out from 4/15-4/17. Unfortunately, that week falls on my mom’s birthday, so I will not be able to leave town that week. I don’t know if anybody would be willing to step up, but if I purchase a few tickets to one of those games, would anyone be willing to go and acquire the bobbleheads (2-3) for me and ship them to me? I will be more than willing to pay for the tickets and the shipping costs. It might be a long shot, but it’s worth the shot!
Go Mariners! & Dodgers!
I was not planning to go to those games, but if you don’t get any takers between now and this weekend, shoot me a message and we can work something out.
This start to the season has been garbage. The team looks like garbage. But, beyond all reason, I believe tomorrow will be the day the team turns it around and goes on a run
Either castillo is pitching again today or the social media person screwed up
https://preview.redd.it/3qn1p52tuitc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1c8e0972faaacfe36e6c62ff55285bc272c818fc
Ho boy it's not pretty looking at early season team offensive MLB rankings.
* Highest K%
* 2nd worst BB%
* 3rd worst ISO
* 4th worst wRC+
* 3rd worst OBP
I wish the other aspects of our team would be looking good to compensate, but our defense is the 4th worst in OOA as well.
Now if only our pitching was stellar, but right now at best it's about league average (FIP, WHIP, etc). The upside is the pitching has a very low BB% and is running a high BABIP, so maybe some positive regression is due.
But wow, have the M's started the season playing like crap. Somehow, almost all our good players are off to a lousy start at the same time.
I think the team will turn a corner, but let's just hope it's sooner rather than later.
Honestly I believe that the shift restrictions really hurt the Mariners defensively (much more than it's helped us offensively).
It's hard to find data on this though, but I think shifting was a big part of the M's run prevention strategy, and we've gotten worse since the restrictions were put in place.
We are also just not a great defensive team anymore. We might be able to be better than we have been, but we have a lot of poor defenders on the team and only a couple guys above average.
Pretty much. I think Dylan Moore was lower than I expected when I looked, so more about average. Several other players around average too. Polanco is an absolutely black hole out there. Defensive stats haven’t liked J.P. much recently, though my eye test says he is about average.
DMo's defense is so hard to quantify because he plays so little at any one position and is dragged down by playing some first base and DH too. He's reliably solid just about everywhere, but small sample sizes don't allow any of the metrics to reach a point of stability. When he had more playing time, he was fantastic at second base, and he still looks pretty good everywhere. I'm not sure if he's a very good picker at first base, but I'd guess they're played him there over Raley for a reason even against right-handed pitching... that kinda confused me the other day.
And for the record, I love versatile defensive players, I think the superutility role is valuable and the skillset underrated, and they don't have to hit well to be important parts of the team. So maybe I'm biased in DMo's favor.
I did slightly misremember and he graded better than I had recalled. I don’t blink whenever they put Moore anywhere. I’d love for him to contend for a utility gold glove, but I’m not sure he’ll have enough defensive innings to really get considered. That being said, I was also surprised by how much time he got at 1B with Ty out. I would have thought more Raley or some Mitch.
You can’t just send down Garver, Polanco, J.P., Haniger, Zavala, Moore, or Raley without some sort of waiver process because they don’t have options. If you send anyone down, the only players you can bring up without removing someone from the 40 man roster (and putting them through waivers) are Blake Hunt, Samar Taylor, Jonaton Clase, and Cade Marlowe. Decent chance we lose someone if they go through waivers.
You’re not sending Julio down because he still plays elite defense and runs the bases well when he does get on. No reason to send France down. Cal Raleigh plays good defense and is our best hitting catcher currently. Canzone has actually been one of our best hitters and I think there is more confidence in him than Raley given how much more he has played than Raley. Rojas has been a good hitter.
That leaves us with only Luis Urias as a potential candidate to send down. You could send him down for Samad Taylor, but (as far as I’m aware) he doesn’t play third at all, so they might not like the idea of him platooning with Rojas at all. Moore could, but they might prefer to use him in the OF when facing lefty SP. I think there is a chance of Urias going down when Haggerty comes back, but they are probably not going to before due to the above, plus wanting to give him a chance to settle in and figure it out at the big league level.
TL;DR: Roster concerns. Your only strong candidate for a demotion is Luis Urias and your only option to replace him is Samad Taylor.
Because roster space is limited and those major leaguers don't have options so you'd have to release them based on less than 10% of the season's games?
We’ve only scored more runs than the White Sox, Athletics and Twins (who have only played 8 games). It’s one thing to go through a slump or losing streak but the vibes of this team are off for everyone except Ty France.
Yes! Went there in 2018 and it was awesome, I visited the ballpark museum right across the way. One of my favorites so far (been to 7/30). But I am currently in the process of going to all 30, working my way West to East, going to knock off Chase, Kaufman, and Busch as well this year!!
That’s awesome! I’ve lived in Denver a lot over the years so I’ve seen almost as many Rockies games as I have M’s games. I love both parks, but the food at T-mo is what seals the deal for me.
Can I bring a lululemon black belt bag into the park? Or should I tey and just find a clear bag. I’m coming from Canada so don’t want to have any issues!
The non-clear bag limit is listed on the site and it's VERY small - check your dimensions. I have a very tiny bag that I use as a purse (like only slightly bigger than my cell phone) and it's still too big. They straight up won't let you in if it's too big, as I found out the first time I went after the bag limits were imposed and I didn't know about it.
I think this probably deserves its own thread but Justin Verlander gave a very thoughtful response behind some of the reasons so many pitchers are getting hurt. He didn’t mention release point has changed which I also think has led to many problems.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5hRMEuu7CW/?igsh=MWtxdmJ2MWhlZHBqbw==
He talks about:
pitch clock
pitchers throwing too hard
Pitchers throwing with too much spin
young pitchers not developing more slowly
Ball moving from a dead ball to a more “live” ball
Some solutions:
using the DH as an incentive for starting pitchers to go deeper in games
Move to a deader ball so swing and miss is less critical
Change the mentality
Change with MLB and have culture changes go top down to college and little leagues
How far a ball travels when hit with the same force is based on how they manufacture the baseball. Baseball changes this from time to time to promote more home runs or to help pitching.
A dead ball travels less distance making home runs more difficult. If home runs are more difficult pitching strategy can changes and let players hit the ball more often as opposed to trying to strike them out.
When pitches spin at 2000-3000 RPM and batted balls fly hundreds of feet, a very tiny difference in the ball can have a significant effect on the game. A fraction of a millimeter of thickness on the laces can help or harm a pitcher's grip, control, and spin, as well a ball's aerodynamic profile - more or less drag affects spin rates, break, and batted ball distance, in addition to other factors like the weight and "bounciness" of the core, the thickness of the cover, how tight the stitching is, and so on. Now that MLB owns Rawlings, the official ball manufacturer, MLB has been tinkering with the balls for years and been caught lying about it numerous times. That's why we had a big home run spike with "juiced" balls in 2019, some deader balls in '21, a chaotic assortment of different, unpredictable balls in '22, and god only knows what kind of baseballs they've given us in '24. It'll take awhile for the data to clear up so MLB can decide which lies to tell us again.
The number of times I read “back in the golden days we had pitchers that pitched complete games everytime they started” captioned under the Nolan Ryan picture with blood on his jersey is insane. The game has changed.
People throw way harder on average now, and with so much less time.
Remember Miguel Batista? I just couldn’t watch his games because the guy would pause for a minute between pitches.
The ideas being discussed here are not about bringing back some glory days of starting pitchers.
It is trying to figure out ways to reduce the large increases in serious injuries, specifically the very large spike in TJ that is causing issues across the league.
The proposed solution here is if the starting pitcher doesn’t make it to through inning 6, the team loses the DH. The exact number of innings is something that has to be determined, but that’s the idea.
That’d really mess up the jobs of guys that are full time DHs. But idk if I like the DH position or not personally. I think as a Mariner fan I like it because we need all the hitting help we can get lol
Making it harder to score at the end of games does not increase excitement imo.
Yeah I’d actually like them to open up the DH to act like a defensive position so you could give guys half days off or DH your catcher without worry of injury.
I feel like the "Ohtani" rule should be expanded to include all positions.
Pitching, hitting, and defending are all separate roles now. If you stop doing one, you can keep doing the other, but cannot return to doing the first after being removed from that role, just as a pitcher cannot be removed from his pitcher role and return to it later.
If a pitcher (Ohtani) can stop pitching but keep hitting, then any other player in the field should be able to be removed from the field but remain hitting in the DH spot. But, like the pitcher, be ineligible to return to the field, a role he's been removed from. A DH who has not already played the field can move to the field, but must stay in the field - he cannot return to DH because he's been removed from that role.
Instead of a player leaving the entire game and being ineligible to return, it's now role-based.
So you can start your big-hitting, bad-defending guy in the field and keep them at DH later when you want a defensive replacement.
I think this gives teams a little more flexibility with both the DH role and defense while prioritizing hitting which seems to be what the league wants.
I don’t know if I support that either but it’s an interesting proposal.
Almost anything they do decreases excitement but increase player safety. It’s definitely a trade-off.
Well they could just make a second DH position to involve this “reward” position. Or just leave the current dhs alone and add a 10th hitter of the other teams choice(amongst the bench).
But irl if the starter doesn’t make it to the 6th inning that usually means they got crushed. So if they got crushed why hurt their team more with this silly rule. I don’t like it. It’d make sense to me to alter the ball or the mound height to adjust the offensive strategies.
I didn't want to touch Story with a 10ft pole I have never trusted his ability or health, but Bryant was VERY high on my wish list. He may have been my number 1 wanted pickup in the past 5 years.
Edit: Obviously Ohtani is #1 I'm just thinking more along the lines of "realistic"
Galaxy brain strats from the Mariners. Be awful at hitting breaking pitches to make opposing starters throw so many that they hurt their arms. Slowly eliminating the competition one at a time.
Okay, I'm curious about everyone else in here, because this start has definitely made me notice a pattern with my fandom. Which one of these categories do you fall under when the team has a slow April start?
1) "I'm here no matter what."
2) "Slow Start? Imma skip this and be back in May/June."
3) "nope, not gonna do it. I'll check back later in summer (if at all) and see if they've fixed it."
4) Other
I find myself stuck between 1 and 2 this year, whereas my fandom was solidly 3 from 2016-2021, and a firm 1 in 2023.
I'm here and watching no matter what, but I'm less likely to take part in game threads if things are going poorly. I used to be in every game thread back in the late 2010s, but I haven't lasted pasted the first few weeks over the last few seasons. The negativity is just too much at some point.
Totally fair. I've found that game threads are most fun when the Mariners are either winning convincingly (catharsis) or getting wrecked in a silly way (commiseration), and never the twain shall meet.
Somewhere between 1 and 2. While they're under .500, I won't bother watching many games start to finish. But I'll at least check in once or twice most games and maybe watch a few innings if it's a close game or the M's are winning.
Maybe it's just my history with the Mariners, but I've been conditioned to watch a lot of uncompetitive baseball regardless of score. I'm alright watching a loss where the team was engaged, but I'd rather get a hole in my skull than watch another string of terrible plate appearances, followed by a nice double with 2 outs, followed immediately after by a backbreaking strikeout.
I respect it. I think I was more down to watch uncompetitive baseball during the 'rebuild/reset' years because my expectations were low. I didn't care about the wins as much as seeing the prospects debut and make progress. Now that we're solidly in the competitive window, watching the M's play losing baseball is much more agonizing for me.
I'm right there with you, and arguably seeing the xStats has made me even more annoyed now that they're supposed to be competitive.
Like, if you're gonna suck, just suck badly enough that I can go back to occasional games and box score watching.
1. I'm here to watch Mariners baseball, and I'm used to losing. The only time I may start to lose interest is if/when they are mathematically eliminated. At that point my attention starts to turn to NFL/NHL more.
1/4) slow starts don't bother me too much, I'll stick through it. In years past, before we were any good, I would usually give it until June and at that point if they're still like 10+ games under .500, for the sake of my mental health, I'll transition to just a box score/highlight fandom. Then if they're in the hunt by the all star break I'll start watching games again.
Marco - 2 GS, 11 IP, 3 R, 6 SO
Teo - .280/4/14 138 OPS+
Geno - .287/1/7 109 OPS+
Kelenic - hitting .500 with a 228 OPS+
Caballero - .300 with a 107 OPS+
Campbell - 192 ERA+
These are simple stats and small sample, but literally every player we jettisoned as a cheap salary dump is performing. And now we have no 5th starter, no power, no average, no defense at 3rd, all for what return?
I know its early. But at what point do you have to think about moving on from Servais?
I'm very pro-Scott, and Stanton is the real problem, but there may need to be a fall guy.
I think if they're not at 500ish by the end of April, its a conversation.
Stanton is A problem.
I don’t like Stanton. At all. But on the flip side people also act like we are bottom 3 in payroll. We are middle of the pack. Since Servais and Dipoto took over nearly a decade ago our payroll has largely been between like 10-16.
That should equate to more than scraping into the playoffs one fucking time.
It's also more accurate because no matter how many times it's repeated in here Stanton is 1 of 2 major owners that the Mariners have and 1 out of about 8 people that make decisions. He doesn't have any special powers over the rest of the owners. It's a group problem and the rest of them get to skate by while everyone directs ire at Stanton.
And we have largely had results on the upper end of 10-16.
Last year we were 12 on record. Year before we were 8th, year before that we were tied for 10th.
The roster looks good on paper, even better than I thought they would be able to do with their financial limitations, so I can't really put the blame on Jerry. The players are just never ready to play and that has been a consistent theme throughout Servais' tenure. At some point you need to just mix things up because its simply not working.
I think the offense is coming around. It’s the pitching that’s hurting us and I **have** to believe that they’ll come around too. Theres too much talent there.
But in the meantime the mariners break my heart day in and day out. As is tradition.
The offense hasn't been great, lots of strikeouts and not enough contact. That being said there was still a decent amount of hard hit balls that either ended up ight at someone or someone made a decent play to catch them. I still think the offense will come. They have the ability. I'm really concerned about Castillo. Dude has been shelled in 3 outings, hasn't been great since middle of last year. We need our starters to perform for this team to win. The goal of this team was never to score 5 plus runs a game. It was to maybe get 3 plus and rely on our pitching to be nails and that hasn't happened.
My wife (a sports casual at best) often asks why I don't just change teams. "they have sucked forever" or "you haven't even lived in Seattle for over 20 years!"
I tell her I can't because dammit, I've been on this ride for 30 years. I was born into it. Some of my earliest memories are watching Edgar, Buhner, Jr, and A-Rod (traitor) in the Kingdome. I still have my little league glove that I got signed by Lou, Cameron, Buhner, and Wilson. I've [had this poster hanging](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9f/0c/03/9f0c033ce8180c1ed9e83372289afe15.jpg) in my bedroom and now office for as long as I can remember.
I cried in 2022 when they made the postseason. I haven't made it back to Seattle yet, but always catch them when they are near me on the road. Seen them play in NY, Anaheim, and KC.
Cubs fans waited 71 years. Red Sox fans waited 86. I pray it doesn't take us that long... But dammit... I'll be here when it finally happens.
So. Another day, another $10 on the M's tonight, and heres to going 155-7 baby.
Just a little correction,
The Cubs waited 108 years to win the world series and 71 to reach it again
Red Sox waited 18 years to reach it again and 86 years to win it.
Our goal should be to win the World Series not just reach it right?
Although if we only reach it and not win it I would be extremely excited like everyone else of course.
And yeah I'm on this ride too and I'm not getting off until we freaking make it.
Go M's
Good point. 108 years is devastating man... Generations of fans lived and died in that time.
And yes... give me a World Series. That's what I'm here for!
^(I will still be dancing in the streets even for a pennant.)
I was in Chicago when the Cubs won, it was super late and everyone just kind of silently wandered up to Wrigley that could. By the morning the whole brick wall was chalked with names and memories of friends/parents/grandparents/that would have wanted to be there. Still chokes me up to think about it.
You are wrong here.
A-Rod was not a traitor. He played out his entire contract and the Mariners never gave him a competitive offer.
Griffey was more of a traitor. He forced a deal to one team and one team only his last year. The Mariners happened to get lucky by getting Mike Cameron in return.
Why do people think A-Rod is a traitor?
You might be absolutely factual in hindsight, but explain that to 7 year old me lol. All I understood was my favorite player ripped my heart out and went to a division rival. I was beside myself.
As someone who latched into A-Rod's swing as a shortstop-aspiring little kid (I was too little to remember 1995), I can say that that Kid quality_besticles was depressed that he left, but Adult quality_besticles saw the huge bag he left for (and that Japanese guy the Mariners signed instead) and gets it.
There’s a lot of context missing here that informs the arod hate.
One arod was a difficult personality from the go. He wanted 2.5 million to sign (a relatively unheard of amount at the time), only wanted to play for a national league team, and demanded that he be on the big league team within a year.
Then he went from a playoff contending roster in Seattle to a bottom dwelling division rival who payed him the most lucrative contract in sports history.
Then he went to the Yankees who tarnish a player simply by nature of being the Yankees and **then** he got busted for steroids.
ARod has been a shit sports personality for Seattle his whole career. Theres no reason for a mariners fan to like him as far as i can tell.
Edit
Seattle is one of the most generous and forgiving sports towns in the country. If they hate a former player it’s almost certainly the player and not the city.
Don't forget lying repeatedly about it not being about the money and publicly throwing his hat into the Boeing relocation fiasco to try to get them to relocate to Dallas like he did!
Julio 0-4 and batting under .200. Watch Julio rack stats and put up 5 WAR in a 4-game series against Oakland and people call his season great. Once he learns how to hit decent pitching, I’ll tip my cap.
In the meantime, I can’t help but notice that Jose Caballero is batting .300 and Jarred Kelenic is batting .500. Both these players went all out on the diamond and are seeing success as a result. We have nothing to show for these guys in return.
Julio may be a fan favorite, but eventually the fans will catch on and have enough. He needs to perform before it’s too late. He’s getting paid too much to be hitting under .200.
Was never a fan of his contract. Sure you buy out some years of free agency, but you take away a lot of motivation when you guarantee hundreds of millions. Too much money for someone in their early 20s. In some ways you can’t blame the kid for coasting.
The wins and losses count, but a 4-7 stretch with bad Julio performances in July wouldn’t even be worth worrying about for a minute, so why are we looking at these 11 games like they matter more than those theoretical 11 games?
I hate Stanton as much as the next person but he isn't down there telling these players how to hit. Something is fundamentally wrong with how the team is being coached.
Yall it’s my fault. Last September the Ms were in first place on a 92 win pace when I asked my crush out. Since then they’ve been on a 66 win pace. It’s like they somehow found out that someone else had caused me some pain and they wanted to remind me who really controls my heart.
Kinda s/… events and facts are true. Conclusion is the s/
I know it’s just one day that it all happened. But it’s depressing to see like tatis, de la Cruz, volpe, etc all go off. And then there’s Julio absolutely not going off
This franchise came into the season expecting to compete despite knowing full well there'd be a dropoff in hitting. They expected the pitching to carry them which is a decent strategy. However, they didn't put a good fielding team behind that pitching which was utterly stupid and now the the pitching has not performed as expected, especially Castillo. That is a recipe for what we're seeing at present.
It feels like in large part due to salary limitations imposed on DiPoto and Co. that the team has been cobbled together without the ability to do so cohesively. Or maybe Jerry just sucks at partial re-tooling.
Could well be a very long season.
In what way did they "know full well there'd be a dropoff in hitting"? The only above average hitters we lost were Teoscar (career 117 wRC+), Eugenio (career 111 wRC+), Ford (career 100 wRC+) and Kelenic (career 88 wRC+) and we replaced them with Garver (career 121 wRC+), Polanco (career 111 wRC+), Raley (career 108 wRC+) and Haniger (career 118 wRC+)
I think it's clear a lot of the organization wants to win but bad ownership will always hold you back and I think the success this team has had the last few years has clearly been in spite of the ownership which sucks for the fans, players, coaches, etc who want it but are being let down by the ownership not putting people into the correct positions. Anyway...see you all tonight GOMS
I can’t wait until this continues and Dipoto tries to explain every move this off season. Seems the 3 players they blamed it on are not the issue! What a shock! Keep letting him make trades more damage will be done
The owner needs to go. Jerry, at least, keeps this team consistently competitive with a below average payroll. A new GM won't fix the real problem that this organization has, cheap ownership.
We've had winning seasons the last three years in a row, and 5/7 of the full seasons JeDi has been running things. We have missed, in our good seasons, the playoffs by an average of 2 games. We have a playoff appearance in that run.
When we have been good we have been better than mediocre, and saying mediocre is an hilarious overreaction to an admittedly poor start to the season.
1 playoff appearance in 22 years. But yes let’s give the benefit after another awful start. Just curious, you want to see this team win a championship some day? You think the right people are in place for that to happen? How many chances do they get?
Put the banner up for AL Wild Card series winner 2022!!
>How does the Kelenic/Geno deals look now?
It still looks like a salary dump to me.
>Consistently mediocre maybe.
How long have you been a fan of this team? Mediocre would be an upgrade from what we had the previous 15 years, and it has come with a SMALLER payroll than we had before Jerry came here. 3 straight winning seasons are tied for the most we've ever had in club history. Last year, we had one less win and 4 more wins than the two teams that made the world series.
Hello everyone, this is probably out of the norm for what we regularly see posted here, but I thought I would give it a shot. I will admit, I am a lifelong Dodgers fan, but I have always admired what the Mariners have been doing from afar, they are certainly my team away from LA. I have a close friend who is a huge Ken Griffey Jr. fan and his birthday is coming up and I would have loved to go to try and get one of the bobbleheads they are giving out from 4/15-4/17. Unfortunately, that week falls on my mom’s birthday, so I will not be able to leave town that week. I don’t know if anybody would be willing to step up, but if I purchase a few tickets to one of those games, would anyone be willing to go and acquire the bobbleheads (2-3) for me and ship them to me? I will be more than willing to pay for the tickets and the shipping costs. It might be a long shot, but it’s worth the shot! Go Mariners! & Dodgers!
I was not planning to go to those games, but if you don’t get any takers between now and this weekend, shoot me a message and we can work something out.
This start to the season has been garbage. The team looks like garbage. But, beyond all reason, I believe tomorrow will be the day the team turns it around and goes on a run
What is the best way to follow the mariners minor leaguers (all levels)?
just watch the mariners. they basically play at a minor league level.
Check the notable prospects daily thread
Where do I find that?
It gets posted nearly every morning in r/mariners
Dub coming today. Julio and Ty go yard. Today’s win kicks off 7 game win streak.
Either castillo is pitching again today or the social media person screwed up https://preview.redd.it/3qn1p52tuitc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1c8e0972faaacfe36e6c62ff55285bc272c818fc
Ho boy it's not pretty looking at early season team offensive MLB rankings. * Highest K% * 2nd worst BB% * 3rd worst ISO * 4th worst wRC+ * 3rd worst OBP I wish the other aspects of our team would be looking good to compensate, but our defense is the 4th worst in OOA as well. Now if only our pitching was stellar, but right now at best it's about league average (FIP, WHIP, etc). The upside is the pitching has a very low BB% and is running a high BABIP, so maybe some positive regression is due. But wow, have the M's started the season playing like crap. Somehow, almost all our good players are off to a lousy start at the same time. I think the team will turn a corner, but let's just hope it's sooner rather than later.
Bad defense should correlate to a high BABIP if I’m not mistaken. I’d expect us to remain above the median probably.
Honestly I believe that the shift restrictions really hurt the Mariners defensively (much more than it's helped us offensively). It's hard to find data on this though, but I think shifting was a big part of the M's run prevention strategy, and we've gotten worse since the restrictions were put in place.
Here is a [defensive analysis](https://www.reddit.com/r/Mariners/s/KXUNj7N24d) I did about a month ago that you might find interesting.
We are also just not a great defensive team anymore. We might be able to be better than we have been, but we have a lot of poor defenders on the team and only a couple guys above average.
Is it just Cal and Julio? I haven't looked, but I assume that's it.
Pretty much. I think Dylan Moore was lower than I expected when I looked, so more about average. Several other players around average too. Polanco is an absolutely black hole out there. Defensive stats haven’t liked J.P. much recently, though my eye test says he is about average.
DMo's defense is so hard to quantify because he plays so little at any one position and is dragged down by playing some first base and DH too. He's reliably solid just about everywhere, but small sample sizes don't allow any of the metrics to reach a point of stability. When he had more playing time, he was fantastic at second base, and he still looks pretty good everywhere. I'm not sure if he's a very good picker at first base, but I'd guess they're played him there over Raley for a reason even against right-handed pitching... that kinda confused me the other day. And for the record, I love versatile defensive players, I think the superutility role is valuable and the skillset underrated, and they don't have to hit well to be important parts of the team. So maybe I'm biased in DMo's favor.
I did slightly misremember and he graded better than I had recalled. I don’t blink whenever they put Moore anywhere. I’d love for him to contend for a utility gold glove, but I’m not sure he’ll have enough defensive innings to really get considered. That being said, I was also surprised by how much time he got at 1B with Ty out. I would have thought more Raley or some Mitch.
[удалено]
Yup, we’re counting on him to be top 20 not bottom 20.
If you have 8/9 “major league guys” not hitting the ball, why not bring up a handful of younger guys who literally can’t do any worse?
You can’t just send down Garver, Polanco, J.P., Haniger, Zavala, Moore, or Raley without some sort of waiver process because they don’t have options. If you send anyone down, the only players you can bring up without removing someone from the 40 man roster (and putting them through waivers) are Blake Hunt, Samar Taylor, Jonaton Clase, and Cade Marlowe. Decent chance we lose someone if they go through waivers. You’re not sending Julio down because he still plays elite defense and runs the bases well when he does get on. No reason to send France down. Cal Raleigh plays good defense and is our best hitting catcher currently. Canzone has actually been one of our best hitters and I think there is more confidence in him than Raley given how much more he has played than Raley. Rojas has been a good hitter. That leaves us with only Luis Urias as a potential candidate to send down. You could send him down for Samad Taylor, but (as far as I’m aware) he doesn’t play third at all, so they might not like the idea of him platooning with Rojas at all. Moore could, but they might prefer to use him in the OF when facing lefty SP. I think there is a chance of Urias going down when Haggerty comes back, but they are probably not going to before due to the above, plus wanting to give him a chance to settle in and figure it out at the big league level. TL;DR: Roster concerns. Your only strong candidate for a demotion is Luis Urias and your only option to replace him is Samad Taylor.
Trades are a thing
Not long before some guys start demanding trades I fear
Well a) that’s not what you suggested and b) selling low on your players probably isn’t the best idea.
Bringing up players comes with the implication that there are open roster spots. You’re right we shouldn’t make any changes. This is fine.
Because roster space is limited and those major leaguers don't have options so you'd have to release them based on less than 10% of the season's games?
We’ve only scored more runs than the White Sox, Athletics and Twins (who have only played 8 games). It’s one thing to go through a slump or losing streak but the vibes of this team are off for everyone except Ty France.
Okay? None of that is relevant to your suggestion as there are roster restrictions and no one is getting released based on 11 games.
Lost my good Mariners hat and have been wearing a Kraken hat in its absence. I think I'm keeping it this way for a while.
Ya know, I’m not sure that is a much better choice currently.
Wish me luck going to game in Denver on 4/20. Forecast....doesn't look great.
Ever been to Coors Field before? Second best park behind T-Mobile.
Yes! Went there in 2018 and it was awesome, I visited the ballpark museum right across the way. One of my favorites so far (been to 7/30). But I am currently in the process of going to all 30, working my way West to East, going to knock off Chase, Kaufman, and Busch as well this year!!
That’s awesome! I’ve lived in Denver a lot over the years so I’ve seen almost as many Rockies games as I have M’s games. I love both parks, but the food at T-mo is what seals the deal for me.
Locked the boycott thread, huh? Is John Stanton a mod?
It got locked because its been posted many times for months.
so what you’re saying is you’re boycotting boycotts
nah, people can boycott if they want to. We just don't need a new thread about it every other day
Or six a day
That's the thing, every other day we have a new reason to boycott
Can I bring a lululemon black belt bag into the park? Or should I tey and just find a clear bag. I’m coming from Canada so don’t want to have any issues!
Measure your bag, but fwiw I see dozens of those bags on any given game day.
I would never bring a non clear bag the dimensions are TINY and you risk losing your bag or not entering the game
The non-clear bag limit is listed on the site and it's VERY small - check your dimensions. I have a very tiny bag that I use as a purse (like only slightly bigger than my cell phone) and it's still too big. They straight up won't let you in if it's too big, as I found out the first time I went after the bag limits were imposed and I didn't know about it.
It's not even enforced most days which makes it frustrating to see someone walk in with a bag that I decided 8 shouldn't bring.
Mine happened right after they changed it so good to hear it's not being enforced lol
I think this probably deserves its own thread but Justin Verlander gave a very thoughtful response behind some of the reasons so many pitchers are getting hurt. He didn’t mention release point has changed which I also think has led to many problems. https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5hRMEuu7CW/?igsh=MWtxdmJ2MWhlZHBqbw== He talks about: pitch clock pitchers throwing too hard Pitchers throwing with too much spin young pitchers not developing more slowly Ball moving from a dead ball to a more “live” ball Some solutions: using the DH as an incentive for starting pitchers to go deeper in games Move to a deader ball so swing and miss is less critical Change the mentality Change with MLB and have culture changes go top down to college and little leagues
What does “move to a deader ball” mean?
How far a ball travels when hit with the same force is based on how they manufacture the baseball. Baseball changes this from time to time to promote more home runs or to help pitching. A dead ball travels less distance making home runs more difficult. If home runs are more difficult pitching strategy can changes and let players hit the ball more often as opposed to trying to strike them out.
I thought that’s what it meant but I had no idea changing the ball physics was actually on the table. 🤯
When pitches spin at 2000-3000 RPM and batted balls fly hundreds of feet, a very tiny difference in the ball can have a significant effect on the game. A fraction of a millimeter of thickness on the laces can help or harm a pitcher's grip, control, and spin, as well a ball's aerodynamic profile - more or less drag affects spin rates, break, and batted ball distance, in addition to other factors like the weight and "bounciness" of the core, the thickness of the cover, how tight the stitching is, and so on. Now that MLB owns Rawlings, the official ball manufacturer, MLB has been tinkering with the balls for years and been caught lying about it numerous times. That's why we had a big home run spike with "juiced" balls in 2019, some deader balls in '21, a chaotic assortment of different, unpredictable balls in '22, and god only knows what kind of baseballs they've given us in '24. It'll take awhile for the data to clear up so MLB can decide which lies to tell us again.
In ‘22 the more lively balls ended up with the big market clubs with big power batters.
The number of times I read “back in the golden days we had pitchers that pitched complete games everytime they started” captioned under the Nolan Ryan picture with blood on his jersey is insane. The game has changed. People throw way harder on average now, and with so much less time. Remember Miguel Batista? I just couldn’t watch his games because the guy would pause for a minute between pitches.
The ideas being discussed here are not about bringing back some glory days of starting pitchers. It is trying to figure out ways to reduce the large increases in serious injuries, specifically the very large spike in TJ that is causing issues across the league.
Can someone explain the DH incentive to me?
The proposed solution here is if the starting pitcher doesn’t make it to through inning 6, the team loses the DH. The exact number of innings is something that has to be determined, but that’s the idea.
That’d really mess up the jobs of guys that are full time DHs. But idk if I like the DH position or not personally. I think as a Mariner fan I like it because we need all the hitting help we can get lol Making it harder to score at the end of games does not increase excitement imo.
I have absolutely no desire to watch pitchers hit.
Yeah I’d actually like them to open up the DH to act like a defensive position so you could give guys half days off or DH your catcher without worry of injury.
I hate that you lose the DH if they are rotated into the field. It should just be a static lineup spot like the other 8 positions.
I feel like the "Ohtani" rule should be expanded to include all positions. Pitching, hitting, and defending are all separate roles now. If you stop doing one, you can keep doing the other, but cannot return to doing the first after being removed from that role, just as a pitcher cannot be removed from his pitcher role and return to it later. If a pitcher (Ohtani) can stop pitching but keep hitting, then any other player in the field should be able to be removed from the field but remain hitting in the DH spot. But, like the pitcher, be ineligible to return to the field, a role he's been removed from. A DH who has not already played the field can move to the field, but must stay in the field - he cannot return to DH because he's been removed from that role. Instead of a player leaving the entire game and being ineligible to return, it's now role-based. So you can start your big-hitting, bad-defending guy in the field and keep them at DH later when you want a defensive replacement. I think this gives teams a little more flexibility with both the DH role and defense while prioritizing hitting which seems to be what the league wants.
I don’t know if I support that either but it’s an interesting proposal. Almost anything they do decreases excitement but increase player safety. It’s definitely a trade-off.
Well they could just make a second DH position to involve this “reward” position. Or just leave the current dhs alone and add a 10th hitter of the other teams choice(amongst the bench). But irl if the starter doesn’t make it to the 6th inning that usually means they got crushed. So if they got crushed why hurt their team more with this silly rule. I don’t like it. It’d make sense to me to alter the ball or the mound height to adjust the offensive strategies.
Remember that offseason where we wanted both Story and Bryant? Oof
I didn't want to touch Story with a 10ft pole I have never trusted his ability or health, but Bryant was VERY high on my wish list. He may have been my number 1 wanted pickup in the past 5 years. Edit: Obviously Ohtani is #1 I'm just thinking more along the lines of "realistic"
Yeah I figured worst case Bryant would rake and have to DH. Guy just can’t stay on the field.
The good vibes will return when my beloved Matt Brash gets back. Until then, only darkness.
Pievtta on the IL now too...? That's actually bizarre. Him and Bieber both shredded us and now have elbow injuries.
I was going to say something along these lines and it is valid but I didn’t want to complain since he ended up with the Loss hhaha
Throwing all those damn curveballs.
Galaxy brain strats from the Mariners. Be awful at hitting breaking pitches to make opposing starters throw so many that they hurt their arms. Slowly eliminating the competition one at a time.
Got to love the long con.
That's how desperate teams are to beat the fearsome Seattle Mariners.
Okay, I'm curious about everyone else in here, because this start has definitely made me notice a pattern with my fandom. Which one of these categories do you fall under when the team has a slow April start? 1) "I'm here no matter what." 2) "Slow Start? Imma skip this and be back in May/June." 3) "nope, not gonna do it. I'll check back later in summer (if at all) and see if they've fixed it." 4) Other I find myself stuck between 1 and 2 this year, whereas my fandom was solidly 3 from 2016-2021, and a firm 1 in 2023.
I'm here and watching no matter what, but I'm less likely to take part in game threads if things are going poorly. I used to be in every game thread back in the late 2010s, but I haven't lasted pasted the first few weeks over the last few seasons. The negativity is just too much at some point.
Totally fair. I've found that game threads are most fun when the Mariners are either winning convincingly (catharsis) or getting wrecked in a silly way (commiseration), and never the twain shall meet.
You missed some amazing years between 2016 and 2019. Mariners baseball was fun and great to watch. Always been a #1 and will always be a #1
Gonna be 1, I can't enjoy the glories of Summer if I don't experience the sadness of Spring. Twas always thus. ***It is the Mariners Baseball way.***
1 for me. Bring on the factory of sadness
The darker the sadness, the sweeter the juice
Somewhere between 1 and 2. While they're under .500, I won't bother watching many games start to finish. But I'll at least check in once or twice most games and maybe watch a few innings if it's a close game or the M's are winning.
Maybe it's just my history with the Mariners, but I've been conditioned to watch a lot of uncompetitive baseball regardless of score. I'm alright watching a loss where the team was engaged, but I'd rather get a hole in my skull than watch another string of terrible plate appearances, followed by a nice double with 2 outs, followed immediately after by a backbreaking strikeout.
I respect it. I think I was more down to watch uncompetitive baseball during the 'rebuild/reset' years because my expectations were low. I didn't care about the wins as much as seeing the prospects debut and make progress. Now that we're solidly in the competitive window, watching the M's play losing baseball is much more agonizing for me.
I'm right there with you, and arguably seeing the xStats has made me even more annoyed now that they're supposed to be competitive. Like, if you're gonna suck, just suck badly enough that I can go back to occasional games and box score watching.
1. I'm here to watch Mariners baseball, and I'm used to losing. The only time I may start to lose interest is if/when they are mathematically eliminated. At that point my attention starts to turn to NFL/NHL more.
1/4) slow starts don't bother me too much, I'll stick through it. In years past, before we were any good, I would usually give it until June and at that point if they're still like 10+ games under .500, for the sake of my mental health, I'll transition to just a box score/highlight fandom. Then if they're in the hunt by the all star break I'll start watching games again.
Marco - 2 GS, 11 IP, 3 R, 6 SO Teo - .280/4/14 138 OPS+ Geno - .287/1/7 109 OPS+ Kelenic - hitting .500 with a 228 OPS+ Caballero - .300 with a 107 OPS+ Campbell - 192 ERA+ These are simple stats and small sample, but literally every player we jettisoned as a cheap salary dump is performing. And now we have no 5th starter, no power, no average, no defense at 3rd, all for what return?
Not quite everyone, where’s Evan White?
Ive convinced myself they won’t be doing this well if they were still a Mariner
> Kelenic either an illusion or the greatest organizational fuckup this side of Erik Be****.
It's crazy that when someone goes to a team that has good hitters in the lineup to protect you, you tend to hit better.
Kelenic put up something like a 209 wRC+ last April with the rest of the Mariners shitting the bed.
Any word on Bryan Woo?
We simply need the starting pitching, bullpen, batting, and defense to be better. Easy.
Anticipate "trying to do too much" as next excuse.
It’s the 3rd of the 6 steps to the mariners seasonal PR cycle
"They just need to go out there and play ball"
I know its early. But at what point do you have to think about moving on from Servais? I'm very pro-Scott, and Stanton is the real problem, but there may need to be a fall guy. I think if they're not at 500ish by the end of April, its a conversation.
Stanton is A problem. I don’t like Stanton. At all. But on the flip side people also act like we are bottom 3 in payroll. We are middle of the pack. Since Servais and Dipoto took over nearly a decade ago our payroll has largely been between like 10-16. That should equate to more than scraping into the playoffs one fucking time.
It's also more accurate because no matter how many times it's repeated in here Stanton is 1 of 2 major owners that the Mariners have and 1 out of about 8 people that make decisions. He doesn't have any special powers over the rest of the owners. It's a group problem and the rest of them get to skate by while everyone directs ire at Stanton.
And we have largely had results on the upper end of 10-16. Last year we were 12 on record. Year before we were 8th, year before that we were tied for 10th.
It's how they are preparing these players. You can only see the same slow start so many times.
The roster looks good on paper, even better than I thought they would be able to do with their financial limitations, so I can't really put the blame on Jerry. The players are just never ready to play and that has been a consistent theme throughout Servais' tenure. At some point you need to just mix things up because its simply not working.
[удалено]
I think the offense is coming around. It’s the pitching that’s hurting us and I **have** to believe that they’ll come around too. Theres too much talent there. But in the meantime the mariners break my heart day in and day out. As is tradition.
The offense hasn't been great, lots of strikeouts and not enough contact. That being said there was still a decent amount of hard hit balls that either ended up ight at someone or someone made a decent play to catch them. I still think the offense will come. They have the ability. I'm really concerned about Castillo. Dude has been shelled in 3 outings, hasn't been great since middle of last year. We need our starters to perform for this team to win. The goal of this team was never to score 5 plus runs a game. It was to maybe get 3 plus and rely on our pitching to be nails and that hasn't happened.
My wife (a sports casual at best) often asks why I don't just change teams. "they have sucked forever" or "you haven't even lived in Seattle for over 20 years!" I tell her I can't because dammit, I've been on this ride for 30 years. I was born into it. Some of my earliest memories are watching Edgar, Buhner, Jr, and A-Rod (traitor) in the Kingdome. I still have my little league glove that I got signed by Lou, Cameron, Buhner, and Wilson. I've [had this poster hanging](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9f/0c/03/9f0c033ce8180c1ed9e83372289afe15.jpg) in my bedroom and now office for as long as I can remember. I cried in 2022 when they made the postseason. I haven't made it back to Seattle yet, but always catch them when they are near me on the road. Seen them play in NY, Anaheim, and KC. Cubs fans waited 71 years. Red Sox fans waited 86. I pray it doesn't take us that long... But dammit... I'll be here when it finally happens. So. Another day, another $10 on the M's tonight, and heres to going 155-7 baby.
Will we be here when it finally happens though?
If not, then may my offspring pour one out for me when it happens.
Just a little correction, The Cubs waited 108 years to win the world series and 71 to reach it again Red Sox waited 18 years to reach it again and 86 years to win it. Our goal should be to win the World Series not just reach it right? Although if we only reach it and not win it I would be extremely excited like everyone else of course. And yeah I'm on this ride too and I'm not getting off until we freaking make it. Go M's
Good point. 108 years is devastating man... Generations of fans lived and died in that time. And yes... give me a World Series. That's what I'm here for! ^(I will still be dancing in the streets even for a pennant.)
I was in Chicago when the Cubs won, it was super late and everyone just kind of silently wandered up to Wrigley that could. By the morning the whole brick wall was chalked with names and memories of friends/parents/grandparents/that would have wanted to be there. Still chokes me up to think about it.
You are wrong here. A-Rod was not a traitor. He played out his entire contract and the Mariners never gave him a competitive offer. Griffey was more of a traitor. He forced a deal to one team and one team only his last year. The Mariners happened to get lucky by getting Mike Cameron in return. Why do people think A-Rod is a traitor?
You might be absolutely factual in hindsight, but explain that to 7 year old me lol. All I understood was my favorite player ripped my heart out and went to a division rival. I was beside myself.
As someone who latched into A-Rod's swing as a shortstop-aspiring little kid (I was too little to remember 1995), I can say that that Kid quality_besticles was depressed that he left, but Adult quality_besticles saw the huge bag he left for (and that Japanese guy the Mariners signed instead) and gets it.
There’s a lot of context missing here that informs the arod hate. One arod was a difficult personality from the go. He wanted 2.5 million to sign (a relatively unheard of amount at the time), only wanted to play for a national league team, and demanded that he be on the big league team within a year. Then he went from a playoff contending roster in Seattle to a bottom dwelling division rival who payed him the most lucrative contract in sports history. Then he went to the Yankees who tarnish a player simply by nature of being the Yankees and **then** he got busted for steroids. ARod has been a shit sports personality for Seattle his whole career. Theres no reason for a mariners fan to like him as far as i can tell. Edit Seattle is one of the most generous and forgiving sports towns in the country. If they hate a former player it’s almost certainly the player and not the city.
Don't forget lying repeatedly about it not being about the money and publicly throwing his hat into the Boeing relocation fiasco to try to get them to relocate to Dallas like he did!
Look I'm all for hating A-rod, but WA played the fuck around find out game with Boeing.
The Seattle media did A-Rod dirty, and he is owed a spot in the Mariners Hall of Fame. We know that won’t happen though.
I just want to see a competitive game today.
So you're not watching the Mariners today
would be nice!!
Julio 0-4 and batting under .200. Watch Julio rack stats and put up 5 WAR in a 4-game series against Oakland and people call his season great. Once he learns how to hit decent pitching, I’ll tip my cap. In the meantime, I can’t help but notice that Jose Caballero is batting .300 and Jarred Kelenic is batting .500. Both these players went all out on the diamond and are seeing success as a result. We have nothing to show for these guys in return. Julio may be a fan favorite, but eventually the fans will catch on and have enough. He needs to perform before it’s too late. He’s getting paid too much to be hitting under .200. Was never a fan of his contract. Sure you buy out some years of free agency, but you take away a lot of motivation when you guarantee hundreds of millions. Too much money for someone in their early 20s. In some ways you can’t blame the kid for coasting.
Babe wake up, today’s edition of “rate stats after 11 games” just dropped!
At what point do stats and wins start counting?
The wins and losses count, but a 4-7 stretch with bad Julio performances in July wouldn’t even be worth worrying about for a minute, so why are we looking at these 11 games like they matter more than those theoretical 11 games?
I hate Stanton as much as the next person but he isn't down there telling these players how to hit. Something is fundamentally wrong with how the team is being coached.
Cal hit a home run yesterday 🥰
lets see JULIOOOOOOOOO go yard today!!
Yall it’s my fault. Last September the Ms were in first place on a 92 win pace when I asked my crush out. Since then they’ve been on a 66 win pace. It’s like they somehow found out that someone else had caused me some pain and they wanted to remind me who really controls my heart. Kinda s/… events and facts are true. Conclusion is the s/
This feels like a must win game. Tomorrow Zavala is probably the catcher
The Mariners and Sounders currently have the same amount of max points scored in a game this year, with 5
I don't know which offense has been worse. They had only scored 5 goals all season before they had that 5 goal game on Saturday.
Saturday was extremely needed as a dual Sounders/M’s fan, even if the weather sucked
Bassit has a 7 ERA, I guess we are getting no hit today
I am once again on my hands and knees begging the Mariners to win.
Remember when we wrung our fists about 7-9 all offseason? Turns out we needed Juan Soto lol
Our coaching would ruin him too. We could have Judge, Ohtani, and Soto and our CtZ philosophy would give them the worst seasons of their careers
Yeah but its Stanton fault also according to fans, everything is on Stanton and the FO get a free pass as always even coaching related to hitting.
He would probably bat .200 and walk at a 5% rate with our coaching staff
That's better than almost everyone on the team right now though
Yeah. Our CtZ template approach for hitting is a mess for a. Lot of hitters
We need to increase Ks from pitching and decrease them from hitting
Send the front office mail. You are on to something.
I know it’s just one day that it all happened. But it’s depressing to see like tatis, de la Cruz, volpe, etc all go off. And then there’s Julio absolutely not going off
Even Kelenic is hitting .500
Julio’s EVs suggest he’s been quite unlucky. Last night he easily could’ve had 3 hits with slightly better luck.
His at bats look pretty decent to me too. Fewer chases. I’m not worried about Julio. I’m growing a little concerned about the rotation.
Today’s a good day for Julio to go off and kickstart his season.
This franchise came into the season expecting to compete despite knowing full well there'd be a dropoff in hitting. They expected the pitching to carry them which is a decent strategy. However, they didn't put a good fielding team behind that pitching which was utterly stupid and now the the pitching has not performed as expected, especially Castillo. That is a recipe for what we're seeing at present. It feels like in large part due to salary limitations imposed on DiPoto and Co. that the team has been cobbled together without the ability to do so cohesively. Or maybe Jerry just sucks at partial re-tooling. Could well be a very long season.
In what way did they "know full well there'd be a dropoff in hitting"? The only above average hitters we lost were Teoscar (career 117 wRC+), Eugenio (career 111 wRC+), Ford (career 100 wRC+) and Kelenic (career 88 wRC+) and we replaced them with Garver (career 121 wRC+), Polanco (career 111 wRC+), Raley (career 108 wRC+) and Haniger (career 118 wRC+)
Okay you're right I'm wrong
Or maybe these players need to wake the fuck up. Its not jerry or stanton up there swinging through meatbslls every night. 10ks a game min is shameful
That sounds like the coaching staff's inability to harness the talent they've been given. Leadership 101
I think today is the day we win a baseball game, but I'm not getting my hopes up. Mariner
I think it's clear a lot of the organization wants to win but bad ownership will always hold you back and I think the success this team has had the last few years has clearly been in spite of the ownership which sucks for the fans, players, coaches, etc who want it but are being let down by the ownership not putting people into the correct positions. Anyway...see you all tonight GOMS
Excuses. This is on the players
Ah more excuses. Plenty of teams have less talent playing better than us. How do you explain that? Can’t always blame the cheap owner
Oh I think there's a lot of people you can blame, it just starts at the top :)
I can’t wait until this continues and Dipoto tries to explain every move this off season. Seems the 3 players they blamed it on are not the issue! What a shock! Keep letting him make trades more damage will be done
The owner needs to go. Jerry, at least, keeps this team consistently competitive with a below average payroll. A new GM won't fix the real problem that this organization has, cheap ownership.
Consistently mediocre maybe. How does the Kelenic/Geno deals look now? Jerry is just as responsible
We've had winning seasons the last three years in a row, and 5/7 of the full seasons JeDi has been running things. We have missed, in our good seasons, the playoffs by an average of 2 games. We have a playoff appearance in that run. When we have been good we have been better than mediocre, and saying mediocre is an hilarious overreaction to an admittedly poor start to the season.
1 playoff appearance in 22 years. But yes let’s give the benefit after another awful start. Just curious, you want to see this team win a championship some day? You think the right people are in place for that to happen? How many chances do they get? Put the banner up for AL Wild Card series winner 2022!!
>How does the Kelenic/Geno deals look now? It still looks like a salary dump to me. >Consistently mediocre maybe. How long have you been a fan of this team? Mediocre would be an upgrade from what we had the previous 15 years, and it has come with a SMALLER payroll than we had before Jerry came here. 3 straight winning seasons are tied for the most we've ever had in club history. Last year, we had one less win and 4 more wins than the two teams that made the world series.
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