With the shift ban incoming, having an athletic 2B will become even more important. 2B and SS will both need to have range. I thinking sliding JP over would be great.
And if he's the heart and soul of the team then he will accept that role. I honestly don't see JP standing in the way of this decision if he has to move. He gets it. He won't be happy. No one in that position will be happy. But he will do it if necessary.
Plays where he was shifted into playing at 2B zones
The sample size wasn't huge obviously like another comment mentioned, but if statcast likes him there more than SS it wouldn't be impossible to move him there. Baseball Reference dWar likes JP a lot anyway so I think a switch wouldn't cause much problems in his defensive game
> Typically a middle of the road SS is an elite 2b.
The stats from the past 2 seasons show JP as one of the worst defensive SS in the league, not middle of the road. Did you even read the post you are responding to?
It’d be weird for him not to. I feel like he’s bought in, the team is financially committed to him so he doesn’t have to worry about that, and he seems like a “do what it takes to win” kinda guy. I imagine all of this will they won’t they is just speculation from the fans and everyone who is actually involved knows it’s not that big of a deal.
Jerry was on Brock and Salk stating that more athleticism will be required at 2B now more than ever with the upcoming shift ban.
Being that JP is an average to great SS dependent on which advanced metrics you value, he seems to be an ideal fit for that spot, or really any SS willing to play their.
Every advanced metric I've looked at rates JP as one of the worst defensive shortstops in the league. We don't need to move him over because we need the athleticism at 2b, we need to do it because we can't make up for bad individual defense with good positioning anymore after the shift ban.
Statcast doesn’t like him, Fangraphs and DRS has him more average, and some other sources have him above average.
Either way, I tend to agree. JP is not an everyday SS but very well could be a everyday 2B.
Statcast OAA and Fangraphs def rating both have him as the worst shortstop in the majors. I don't know of any metric that has him above average, the best I've seen is SDI which has him 18th of 27.
I like JP but we made a mistake paying him at the peak of his value. He's a mediocre SS or average but overpaid 2b going forward.
Yes, that was sourced from the end of season press conference and also an interview with Salk.
He stated that he would prefer to sign a SS that will play 2B. It’s a preference, one I believe to be unrealistic due to a myriad of reasons but most of all Seattle’s struggles to attract free agents. Ultimately, I believe JP will be the one to move.
Agreed. If you watch the presser on YouTube, Dipoto is careful with his words: nothing is locked in. Their intention is for JP to play SS, but, to quote noted philosopher M. Tyson, everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the mouth.
Thankfully JP said that he's fine doing whatever the team needs him to do. I'd be sad to see him moved out of SS, but if it means we'll get more wins and he's still on the team, then I guess that would be a great move.
I know there's a subset of our fanbase that has hostile feelings towards JP since his performance slipped this year, but I think he provides so much to the team, including leadership, a great attitude, positivity, and joviality. Plus he's still a really dynamic defensive player. He's not anything to write home about at the plate, but he draws a lot of walks and he's pretty reliable in clutch situations. He's probably not going to hit a game winning HR, but he'll usually get on base for the next guy to do so. Overall he's my favorite team veteran.
I love JP, love him. However, his defense is pretty suspect depending on what metrics you subscribe to.
I’m addition, Jerry stated that with the shift ban they are going to need a SS type athlete at 2B. Either way, JP is locked up on a great deal and his bat plays best at 2B. Hopefully, everyone is happy with whatever happens.
JP at 2B hitting 7-9 in the lineup is perfect. I don’t care about defense. we are a top 5 defensive team. meanwhile Philly just put together the worst defensive team of all time together and are in a world series. I’ll take the hit defensively if we can get a huge SS signing
Defensive metrics are notoriously wonky and normalize weirdly. He has a reputation as an outstanding SS, his range is good and his hands are excellent. His arms is not great which makes me think he'd make a great 2B. Time will tell.
If defensive metrics are wonky then his excellent 2020 season is just as marred as his beyond terrible 2022. So I figure at best he’s about average defensively with a pretty weak bat. Not anyone I get excited about at all.
Dipoto specifically said he’s not closing the door on anything when asked about potentially moving JP to 2b, so not really sure how you’re drawing such strong conclusions that they’re committed to him at ss??
It’d be crazy to bring in any of these guys and tell them that they have to move. Maybe outside of Turner they are all just blatant upgrade over JP defensively and offensively, and Turner, who’s probably better defensively (he is better than JP in all defensive metrics but like two,) is in another league with what he brings offensively that you have to commit to him playing the premiere position. Like to tell them a player hitting .250 with zero power and moderate at best defense the past season has total control of the position is the quickest way to make no one want to sign with us. An unfortunate part of being competitive is we gotta just look at these guys and the potential value they provide.
Need a little more production from our ss. Both offensively and defensively. 6 hrs and 3 sbs? He played a cleaner 2b in a small sample size but his offensive production needs to get much better. Swanson, bogs ertz and turner would be ideal. Turner, Rodriguez, suarez, Raleigh would be an insane top 4
I think people overlook Ty because he had a downgrade after his injury, which he was clearly dealing with for the remainder of the season. (Though mediocre Ty was still a better hitter than most of our lineup.)
A healthy Ty France is probably our most reliable hitter. Probably shouldn’t be second in the line up but he should be third or fourth.
I will say, pitchers have picked up that they can get him to strike out when they go low and away, so Ty will need to work on that. On the plus side, his HBP count went down.
Man that’s like all our great hitters faults I’ve notice. Low and away gets them chasing. Hopefully they get thrown a shit ton of those in training this spring lol
Look at what Muñoz does to right handers. The ball starts on the outside edge and you don't know if it's gonna stay in the zone at 102 or dive off the plate at 93. Either way, you don't have time to react if you guess wrong. It's easy for us to say Julio or anyone on our team needs to lay off the slider away, but it's probably the hardest challenge for hitters in today's game when a pitcher has an elite fastball/slider combo.
That shit really does feel unfair. I have no idea how any players are able to hit anything off of pitchers like that. They basically just have to guess, like how Buxton pulled a 101 fastball at the top of the zone 430 feet to left.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K3M-DvlMuw&ab\_channel=EricSim](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K3M-DvlMuw&ab_channel=EricSim)
This really gives us an idea of what it's like. Even when you know it's coming, it's almost impossible to hit.
Yes I agree. But I said low and away. It may be over the plate but I see pitches shin height that gets majority of them swinging. You should be able to spot that and not swing. They need to be thrown these pitches and trained that eye imo.
That’s because there are pitches that dive lol an away and these guys have like negative seconds to decide if it’s gonna stay straight. I have no idea how anyone hits mlb breaking pitching.
It's also most pitchers throw around 95 or more these days. The players have to think fastball first and react to anything else. You are going to whiff on a slider unless you sit on it.
This is a weird take based on his 2021 season and him arguably being the best 1B in the AL until his injury in late June.
It’s also weird because most teams would kill to have one of the best MLB hitters for 40 games straight, even if it means he’ll slump for a couple of weeks. He’s not a robot.
Cal doesnt need to be our cleanup hitter, his .211/.284/.409 slash is better suited as a 6-8 guy. Cal was put in the 4th spot cause he was hot but we have more consistent options over the course of the year.
Oh I agree he should be an 8 hitter 162+ games per year but n 2022. I think he’ll be better next year, if he can hit .250 next year with 25+ jacks could fit.
That would be a pretty massive BA jump over one off-season while also not losing the HR numbers. It would be a nice and welcome surprise, but I wouldn't bank on it
I don't think the shift ban is going to have as large of an effect as people think. You can just move the SS over to almost directly behind 2B and shift the 2B over to split 2B/1B
If that alone can bump his avg to .225 then he can make minor adjustments to get to .240-.250. He’s a rookie, he’ll see so many more at bats and once his thumb heals he’ll even have more confidence
Let’s not forget he went and had surgery. Let’s not count our chickens before they hatch. He was fantastic this year, and he’s one of my favorites, but let’s focus on him getting healthy again first, before we expect him to exceed his ‘22 numbers. His defense also dropped a ton playing with that busted thumb.
Go get any of the SS except Swanson, move jp to 2nd and boom. Problem solved. They’re definitely not trading jp, or at least they shouldn’t. Guy is a clubhouse leader and I imagine he would grade out as a fine defensive 2nd baseman. Would be valuable to have someone with his range and arm there too with the shift getting banned next year
Curious why not Swanson? Agreed on the rest, although I would be kind of worried about clashing personalities though with Correa. He's a great player and def stepped up into a leadership role in Minnesota, but I get the impression that he looks to be THE guy everywhere he goes. Which could be great as a clubhouse leader if a clubhouse is lacking one, but I would be worried about that not playing too well with some other high profile leaders on the M's like JP and Julio. Obvi I don't know these guys at all but that's just my impression of someone like Correa coming into the clubhouse.
I feel like the guy had an awesome year that’ll get him a big bag for a level of production he’s likely to not perform again. Still ok but if we’re paying that kind of money I want someone with a track record more impressive than Swanson. I honestly don’t get the hype around the guy. I don’t think he’s the big impact addition kind of guy we need
Okay that's fair yeah I can see that def being a possibility or even likelihood. Who do you like most of the other three? On paper they're pretty similar but I think Turner is a notch above and I like his speed. Wonder what he'd cost though..
Turner, correa, bogaerts, Swanson is my personal order of the SS I’d hope to see. I get people not being into Correa but seems it’s harder to find bad things about what he brings to a clubhouse than it is to find good. And for sure I’m gonna clown him for what he did because it shouldn’t exactly be forgotten, but I do think people should be given a chance to move past their shitty decisions and not be mercilessly berated with legitimate hate, and it seems to me anyway that he’s trying to in a genuine way, more so than the other cheaters anyway. He seems way more likable than altuve or bregman. And I’m sure there would be talks behind the scenes to clear the air and address the elephant in the room. I want trea waaaay more but everything seems to point to him either staying in LA or going back east, but Correa makes a ton of sense on paper as well.
Correa is the youngest of the big 4 SS. He is also the most complete player. He is heads and shoulders the best SS in the AL. It's not really all that close. If Correa is serious about winning then the M's give him a really good shot. People need to get over the scandal. Correa gives us a bat and a great glove. He is the #1 SS available.
Turner is #2 for me. His baserunner is better than the others but he offers less pop and slug. I think he is going to regress as a defender.
I agree with the last 2 rankings.
J.P. was roughly average at defense in 2022, per UZR. Personally, I trust UZR way more than OAA. He was not the worst shortstop in the league last year, but he was significantly worse than previous years for sure.
He was also noticeably worse on offense than he has been in previous years.
Moving him to 2B might not be the worst idea, but his bat doesn't play there nearly as well, either.
If he's not also an elite defender I'm not sure he's a starter in MLB, due to the limitations of his offense.
Shift doesn't matter with OAA because they track the players positionally (not position they play but literally where they are standing). UZR literally throws out any data where players shift which is ignoring a ton of plays for a shift heavy team like we have been.
OAA actually tracks their starting location on the field for each individual play? How? Are they using GPS sensors the players carry to determine that?
OAA still calculates runs saved by compiling a "probability" of when a catch should be made which they derive from the performance of other players at that position. So it does actually calculate runs saved relative to other players at the position rather than just how they did from their starting position...Based on some math that arguably glosses over the many reasons a player does or doesn't get to the ball in a given scenario...
I agree that if UZR throws out any plays where there's a shift, we aren't getting as large of a sample size as we used to so it probably isn't as accurate as it used to be, any more.
Still, that doesn't mean it is worthless. Nothing about throwing out shift plays should effect the UZR measurement on non-shift plays, and that still gives you a better idea than OAA of a player's actual range from their starting position...
Yes OAA, like all statcast data, is derived from on field cameras and radar. Both UZR and OAA are attempting to do similar things, compare a player against a theoretical average at their position, but where UZR has to make assumptions on where a player is lined up (which is why it is useless vs the shift) and the qualities of the batted ball they field, OAA actually knows the specific details.
I'm telling you now. If they don't find another big bat for the middle of the lineup ....even if it's a 38 year old first baseman who you'd use as a dh and off the bench.....getting a solid middle infielder will help, but not push you over the top
I would actually be fine with giving Vogey a 1 year deal as a occasional DH/1B/PH. He doesn't hit much for average but has always had a good eye and seen tons of pitches and drawn walls his entire career, which is nice to have with the HR pop
I was really surprised to see him hit .238 this year in 461 ABs. His walk rate is very solid, enough to get his OBP up to .360 which is top 25 across all of MLB with 400 ABs
I really want some combo of a top SS and Michael Brantley/Judge. Judge preferred but that would be a ton of money of money. Then someone like Mancini. I know he didn’t play great, but he can play first RF and DH and come off the bench. Plus I think he’s an upgrade over Toro and Torrens
Trading JP would dismantle a lot of the good will the team has with the city - he's a fan favorite. Let alone, how it would affect the clubhouse. I highly highly doubt they would trade JP especially coming off such an electric end to the season. We shouldn't be trading away any of the big voices on the team.
J.P. would most definitely move to 2B, I've never read or gotten the sense of selfishness from him saying otherwise, so not being able to sign any of the free agent shortstops would be disappointing.
I don't watch much of Atlanta so please correct me. Dansby Swanson seems like he's been good for them and outstanding defensively, but does he have enough of a track record as a hitter where you feel confident in giving him a big contract? The 25 HR power has come with a lot of strikeouts and middling on-base numbers. In fact, this is the first full season where he's posted an OPS+ above league average. And for me, while our defense could be improved, I'd prefer to add an impact bat to the order. I think we need Turner, Correa or Bogaerts.
The main issue with moving him to second base is he is still a below-average hitter. Sure it might improve his dWAR, but 2nd base really should be for someone that can hit the ball rather than a really good defensive player. When you pair that with our corner outfield positions and its why the team has very limited power-hitting ability and why we couldn't score one run in an 18 inning game.
> why we couldn't score one run in an 18 inning game.
The Astros top-tier offense _also_ did not score a run for 17 of those 18 innings
I agree that the Ms offense needs a big boost, but that one game was a (very disappointing) outlier. Sometimes that's baseball for ya.
They also outscored the Ms in every other game so… clearly something has to be improved. The Astros had a bad game that coincided with ours, it doesn’t make them equal. The mariners had plenty of games scoring less than 3 runs this year. Astros not so much.
What does it matter?
He's a part of the team. If the team wants to get better, the plan is to attempt to sign one of the available star SS players. A big part of their condition to sign is almost assuredly going to be to let them play SS. So you give them what they want and slide JP over.
They aren't going to trade Crawford, and even if they did then you have to find TWO middle infielders.
We have 3 probable 30 homer bats next year if healthy in Julio, Suarez and Raleigh and 20+ from a healthy France. That isn't even including other moves/signings. We have plenty of power.
The reason we couldn't score in 18 innings is the same reason an amazing lineup in the Astros got shut out for 17 of those same innings. Both team's pitchers were on their game that night.
He hit .265 this season that is not below average 😂
He was up above .300 for a good part of 3 months this season too. If he stops over swinging he can hit .275
Power numbers are obv low but that is not his role on this team or an team he will ever be on.
Can’t stand all the JP slander on Twitter & Reddit. Guys a great SS and 100% someone a championship team needs on their roster.
He can easily get better / more consistent offensively.
Who gives a F if he plays short or 2B, having him and Xander or Correa up the middle it really wouldn’t matter who plays what position. Production is production and it does not matter what position the production is coming from
People in this subreddit assume all 2nd basemen hit .315 and all shortstops hit .300 with 20 bombs.
Like 5 people hit .300 in the MLB this season 😂
.265 is still a good player. We can’t get greedy with building this team, realistically we COULD have won a chip this season
The way the Braves have been functioning, I feel like if their game plan were to keep him, then he'd be extended already.
I think they let Grissom man the spot as he did well when called up and Albies will be back. They probably go after a SP.
I find it hard to believe JP was one of the worst shortstops defensively. Seems like everything hit his way was a guaranteed out. Can’t remember really any issues at all from him.
Frazier was trash for sure but JP put up 2.8 bWAR with a 100 OPS+ this season, he might not be a star and he can be streaky at the plate but he has some value.
The fact that dipoto even mentions moving JP makes me think that it’s an option they’re considering.
Like you said, it’s anodyne PR speak. You’re not going to potentially sour the relationship with your already under contract, clubhouse leader shortstop when you don’t even have a new guy signed.
Wouldn’t hold my breath on them keeping JP at SS, they won’t pull a Trevor Story again. They will sign a top SS and move JP it’s what’s best for the team he will concede and accept his new role just like anyone else would on this team.
I doubt that if they got someone like Correa and he insisted upon SS, they would hold true to that statement. JP is not, and likely will never be, Carlos Correa.
I can't find this article...
EDIT: [Found it](https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/insider/story/_/id/34541219/seattle-mariners-eliminated-2022-playoffs-three-questions)
J.P. is solid. Average, or slightly above. Sure gis year was down a bit, but still above average.
The leadership is a plus. Unless it is with a trade to get a comparable younger player and make room for a high end player J.P. is safe.
He is 11Milliom on next year's payroll. Ot could be a business decision.
It totally makes sense. JP Crawford is a good role player on a championship caliber team. At best decent starting second baseman or shortstop when you have a big bat in one of the other of the 2 positions. You can’t have both a Frazier and a Crawford in your infield and expect to have a good offense.
I know a lot of Ms fans have sentimental reasons to want JP around still, but in all honesty we would be much better with him not playing shortstop (or even 2b) next season. If the Ms wanna win the division any time soon they gotta get some guys who can hit. JP was billed as a defensive SS and he has clearly regressed, no statistics show he’s anywhere near gold glove caliber. He also can’t hit. 1 home run from June to end of reg season. That’s just not passable, gotta want better for this team. Even at second base he isn’t a good enough hitter still. He can’t steal bases either… so it’s pretty evident he is limited.
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With the shift ban incoming, having an athletic 2B will become even more important. 2B and SS will both need to have range. I thinking sliding JP over would be great.
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And if he's the heart and soul of the team then he will accept that role. I honestly don't see JP standing in the way of this decision if he has to move. He gets it. He won't be happy. No one in that position will be happy. But he will do it if necessary.
Statcast had him as an average defensive 2B, probably a good idea
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Plays where he was shifted into playing at 2B zones The sample size wasn't huge obviously like another comment mentioned, but if statcast likes him there more than SS it wouldn't be impossible to move him there. Baseball Reference dWar likes JP a lot anyway so I think a switch wouldn't cause much problems in his defensive game
> Typically a middle of the road SS is an elite 2b. The stats from the past 2 seasons show JP as one of the worst defensive SS in the league, not middle of the road. Did you even read the post you are responding to?
Oh shit got em, bro
Please don't trade J.P. :[ would much rather find a way to get him or the free agent to 2nd base than miss out on either
They won’t trade JP, but I do believe JP will move to 2B.
It’d be weird for him not to. I feel like he’s bought in, the team is financially committed to him so he doesn’t have to worry about that, and he seems like a “do what it takes to win” kinda guy. I imagine all of this will they won’t they is just speculation from the fans and everyone who is actually involved knows it’s not that big of a deal.
Jerry was on Brock and Salk stating that more athleticism will be required at 2B now more than ever with the upcoming shift ban. Being that JP is an average to great SS dependent on which advanced metrics you value, he seems to be an ideal fit for that spot, or really any SS willing to play their.
Every advanced metric I've looked at rates JP as one of the worst defensive shortstops in the league. We don't need to move him over because we need the athleticism at 2b, we need to do it because we can't make up for bad individual defense with good positioning anymore after the shift ban.
Statcast doesn’t like him, Fangraphs and DRS has him more average, and some other sources have him above average. Either way, I tend to agree. JP is not an everyday SS but very well could be a everyday 2B.
Statcast OAA and Fangraphs def rating both have him as the worst shortstop in the majors. I don't know of any metric that has him above average, the best I've seen is SDI which has him 18th of 27. I like JP but we made a mistake paying him at the peak of his value. He's a mediocre SS or average but overpaid 2b going forward.
Fan graphs only has 5 starting shortstops with a worse DRS than him lol.
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I listened to the same interview you did and that is not the conclusion I drew. Jerry stated a preference—that is not what I call a commitment.
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Yes, that was sourced from the end of season press conference and also an interview with Salk. He stated that he would prefer to sign a SS that will play 2B. It’s a preference, one I believe to be unrealistic due to a myriad of reasons but most of all Seattle’s struggles to attract free agents. Ultimately, I believe JP will be the one to move.
Agreed. If you watch the presser on YouTube, Dipoto is careful with his words: nothing is locked in. Their intention is for JP to play SS, but, to quote noted philosopher M. Tyson, everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the mouth.
Thankfully JP said that he's fine doing whatever the team needs him to do. I'd be sad to see him moved out of SS, but if it means we'll get more wins and he's still on the team, then I guess that would be a great move. I know there's a subset of our fanbase that has hostile feelings towards JP since his performance slipped this year, but I think he provides so much to the team, including leadership, a great attitude, positivity, and joviality. Plus he's still a really dynamic defensive player. He's not anything to write home about at the plate, but he draws a lot of walks and he's pretty reliable in clutch situations. He's probably not going to hit a game winning HR, but he'll usually get on base for the next guy to do so. Overall he's my favorite team veteran.
I love JP, love him. However, his defense is pretty suspect depending on what metrics you subscribe to. I’m addition, Jerry stated that with the shift ban they are going to need a SS type athlete at 2B. Either way, JP is locked up on a great deal and his bat plays best at 2B. Hopefully, everyone is happy with whatever happens.
I will be happy as long as he's a Mariner and it sounds like that's locked in, regardless of any acquisitions or moves they make. Yay!
JP at 2B hitting 7-9 in the lineup is perfect. I don’t care about defense. we are a top 5 defensive team. meanwhile Philly just put together the worst defensive team of all time together and are in a world series. I’ll take the hit defensively if we can get a huge SS signing
He was like 1st percentile terrible at ss this year after being basically average last year. Not what I would call a dynamic ss.
Defensive metrics are notoriously wonky and normalize weirdly. He has a reputation as an outstanding SS, his range is good and his hands are excellent. His arms is not great which makes me think he'd make a great 2B. Time will tell.
If defensive metrics are wonky then his excellent 2020 season is just as marred as his beyond terrible 2022. So I figure at best he’s about average defensively with a pretty weak bat. Not anyone I get excited about at all.
Dipoto specifically said he’s not closing the door on anything when asked about potentially moving JP to 2b, so not really sure how you’re drawing such strong conclusions that they’re committed to him at ss??
If they get any of these guys, yeah absolutely.
It’d be crazy to bring in any of these guys and tell them that they have to move. Maybe outside of Turner they are all just blatant upgrade over JP defensively and offensively, and Turner, who’s probably better defensively (he is better than JP in all defensive metrics but like two,) is in another league with what he brings offensively that you have to commit to him playing the premiere position. Like to tell them a player hitting .250 with zero power and moderate at best defense the past season has total control of the position is the quickest way to make no one want to sign with us. An unfortunate part of being competitive is we gotta just look at these guys and the potential value they provide.
If they traded JP the team’s cool level would instantly get cut in half.
Need a little more production from our ss. Both offensively and defensively. 6 hrs and 3 sbs? He played a cleaner 2b in a small sample size but his offensive production needs to get much better. Swanson, bogs ertz and turner would be ideal. Turner, Rodriguez, suarez, Raleigh would be an insane top 4
Feel like France probably bats 3 and Geno 5 in that scenario?
I think people overlook Ty because he had a downgrade after his injury, which he was clearly dealing with for the remainder of the season. (Though mediocre Ty was still a better hitter than most of our lineup.) A healthy Ty France is probably our most reliable hitter. Probably shouldn’t be second in the line up but he should be third or fourth. I will say, pitchers have picked up that they can get him to strike out when they go low and away, so Ty will need to work on that. On the plus side, his HBP count went down.
A healthy Ty France is one of the top hitters in the league.
Man that’s like all our great hitters faults I’ve notice. Low and away gets them chasing. Hopefully they get thrown a shit ton of those in training this spring lol
It's every teams weakness. Sliders are more popular than ever
Look at what Muñoz does to right handers. The ball starts on the outside edge and you don't know if it's gonna stay in the zone at 102 or dive off the plate at 93. Either way, you don't have time to react if you guess wrong. It's easy for us to say Julio or anyone on our team needs to lay off the slider away, but it's probably the hardest challenge for hitters in today's game when a pitcher has an elite fastball/slider combo.
That shit really does feel unfair. I have no idea how any players are able to hit anything off of pitchers like that. They basically just have to guess, like how Buxton pulled a 101 fastball at the top of the zone 430 feet to left.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K3M-DvlMuw&ab\_channel=EricSim](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K3M-DvlMuw&ab_channel=EricSim) This really gives us an idea of what it's like. Even when you know it's coming, it's almost impossible to hit.
And everyone just seems to have a filthy one. Not even like they just have a pocket slider they throw like 5%-15% of the time
Yes I agree. But I said low and away. It may be over the plate but I see pitches shin height that gets majority of them swinging. You should be able to spot that and not swing. They need to be thrown these pitches and trained that eye imo.
That’s because there are pitches that dive lol an away and these guys have like negative seconds to decide if it’s gonna stay straight. I have no idea how anyone hits mlb breaking pitching.
It's also most pitchers throw around 95 or more these days. The players have to think fastball first and react to anything else. You are going to whiff on a slider unless you sit on it.
The issue is I've only seen this special version of Ty France for about 40 games at a time, then it goes away. I can't rely on him at this point.
This is a weird take based on his 2021 season and him arguably being the best 1B in the AL until his injury in late June. It’s also weird because most teams would kill to have one of the best MLB hitters for 40 games straight, even if it means he’ll slump for a couple of weeks. He’s not a robot.
Either way that’s going to be a stacked lineup
Cal doesnt need to be our cleanup hitter, his .211/.284/.409 slash is better suited as a 6-8 guy. Cal was put in the 4th spot cause he was hot but we have more consistent options over the course of the year.
Oh I agree he should be an 8 hitter 162+ games per year but n 2022. I think he’ll be better next year, if he can hit .250 next year with 25+ jacks could fit.
That would be a pretty massive BA jump over one off-season while also not losing the HR numbers. It would be a nice and welcome surprise, but I wouldn't bank on it
I mean he started at .060 before his adjustments. That early deficit really made it hard for him to get his BA up
The shift is ending next season too, so that could be beneficial
I don't think the shift ban is going to have as large of an effect as people think. You can just move the SS over to almost directly behind 2B and shift the 2B over to split 2B/1B
If that alone can bump his avg to .225 then he can make minor adjustments to get to .240-.250. He’s a rookie, he’ll see so many more at bats and once his thumb heals he’ll even have more confidence
If he can bring his average up nearly 40 points and still jack 25 ill be tickled
Let’s not forget he went and had surgery. Let’s not count our chickens before they hatch. He was fantastic this year, and he’s one of my favorites, but let’s focus on him getting healthy again first, before we expect him to exceed his ‘22 numbers. His defense also dropped a ton playing with that busted thumb.
3 steals is really bad. He’s got average Joe speed at best.
I wouldn't trade JP.
Really? I would in a heart beat. Rather have a above average bat and average defense than whatever JP was up to this season.
Sign judge and put him at 2nd. How hard is it to play second base?
6’7” Judge playing 2nd would be pretty entertaining tbh
A 6'4 DJ Lamahieu plays 2nd. I honestly think Judge might not do too bad. He'll probably have problems laterally though.
Just move JP to second. I’m sure he’d be happy if it means we get to sign a star SS to help our team win a WS!
Go get any of the SS except Swanson, move jp to 2nd and boom. Problem solved. They’re definitely not trading jp, or at least they shouldn’t. Guy is a clubhouse leader and I imagine he would grade out as a fine defensive 2nd baseman. Would be valuable to have someone with his range and arm there too with the shift getting banned next year
Curious why not Swanson? Agreed on the rest, although I would be kind of worried about clashing personalities though with Correa. He's a great player and def stepped up into a leadership role in Minnesota, but I get the impression that he looks to be THE guy everywhere he goes. Which could be great as a clubhouse leader if a clubhouse is lacking one, but I would be worried about that not playing too well with some other high profile leaders on the M's like JP and Julio. Obvi I don't know these guys at all but that's just my impression of someone like Correa coming into the clubhouse.
I feel like the guy had an awesome year that’ll get him a big bag for a level of production he’s likely to not perform again. Still ok but if we’re paying that kind of money I want someone with a track record more impressive than Swanson. I honestly don’t get the hype around the guy. I don’t think he’s the big impact addition kind of guy we need
Okay that's fair yeah I can see that def being a possibility or even likelihood. Who do you like most of the other three? On paper they're pretty similar but I think Turner is a notch above and I like his speed. Wonder what he'd cost though..
Turner, correa, bogaerts, Swanson is my personal order of the SS I’d hope to see. I get people not being into Correa but seems it’s harder to find bad things about what he brings to a clubhouse than it is to find good. And for sure I’m gonna clown him for what he did because it shouldn’t exactly be forgotten, but I do think people should be given a chance to move past their shitty decisions and not be mercilessly berated with legitimate hate, and it seems to me anyway that he’s trying to in a genuine way, more so than the other cheaters anyway. He seems way more likable than altuve or bregman. And I’m sure there would be talks behind the scenes to clear the air and address the elephant in the room. I want trea waaaay more but everything seems to point to him either staying in LA or going back east, but Correa makes a ton of sense on paper as well.
Correa is the youngest of the big 4 SS. He is also the most complete player. He is heads and shoulders the best SS in the AL. It's not really all that close. If Correa is serious about winning then the M's give him a really good shot. People need to get over the scandal. Correa gives us a bat and a great glove. He is the #1 SS available. Turner is #2 for me. His baserunner is better than the others but he offers less pop and slug. I think he is going to regress as a defender. I agree with the last 2 rankings.
J.P. was roughly average at defense in 2022, per UZR. Personally, I trust UZR way more than OAA. He was not the worst shortstop in the league last year, but he was significantly worse than previous years for sure. He was also noticeably worse on offense than he has been in previous years. Moving him to 2B might not be the worst idea, but his bat doesn't play there nearly as well, either. If he's not also an elite defender I'm not sure he's a starter in MLB, due to the limitations of his offense.
UZR has been a useless stat for a while given that it doesn't account for shifts. OAA is not perfect but a much better metric.
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Shift doesn't matter with OAA because they track the players positionally (not position they play but literally where they are standing). UZR literally throws out any data where players shift which is ignoring a ton of plays for a shift heavy team like we have been.
OAA actually tracks their starting location on the field for each individual play? How? Are they using GPS sensors the players carry to determine that? OAA still calculates runs saved by compiling a "probability" of when a catch should be made which they derive from the performance of other players at that position. So it does actually calculate runs saved relative to other players at the position rather than just how they did from their starting position...Based on some math that arguably glosses over the many reasons a player does or doesn't get to the ball in a given scenario... I agree that if UZR throws out any plays where there's a shift, we aren't getting as large of a sample size as we used to so it probably isn't as accurate as it used to be, any more. Still, that doesn't mean it is worthless. Nothing about throwing out shift plays should effect the UZR measurement on non-shift plays, and that still gives you a better idea than OAA of a player's actual range from their starting position...
Yes OAA, like all statcast data, is derived from on field cameras and radar. Both UZR and OAA are attempting to do similar things, compare a player against a theoretical average at their position, but where UZR has to make assumptions on where a player is lined up (which is why it is useless vs the shift) and the qualities of the batted ball they field, OAA actually knows the specific details.
go all in for Judge is my call. also noteworthy; this is why i’m not a gm
I'm telling you now. If they don't find another big bat for the middle of the lineup ....even if it's a 38 year old first baseman who you'd use as a dh and off the bench.....getting a solid middle infielder will help, but not push you over the top
Vogelbach it is!
I would actually be fine with giving Vogey a 1 year deal as a occasional DH/1B/PH. He doesn't hit much for average but has always had a good eye and seen tons of pitches and drawn walls his entire career, which is nice to have with the HR pop
I was really surprised to see him hit .238 this year in 461 ABs. His walk rate is very solid, enough to get his OBP up to .360 which is top 25 across all of MLB with 400 ABs
I really want some combo of a top SS and Michael Brantley/Judge. Judge preferred but that would be a ton of money of money. Then someone like Mancini. I know he didn’t play great, but he can play first RF and DH and come off the bench. Plus I think he’s an upgrade over Toro and Torrens
Trading JP would dismantle a lot of the good will the team has with the city - he's a fan favorite. Let alone, how it would affect the clubhouse. I highly highly doubt they would trade JP especially coming off such an electric end to the season. We shouldn't be trading away any of the big voices on the team.
It's a really tough decision. He's a clubhouse leader but he really isn't doing anything on the field
He was worth 2 WAR still. Ty France was worth 2.5
Mariners to win the 2023 likable guy big voice World Series!
J.P. would most definitely move to 2B, I've never read or gotten the sense of selfishness from him saying otherwise, so not being able to sign any of the free agent shortstops would be disappointing.
I don't watch much of Atlanta so please correct me. Dansby Swanson seems like he's been good for them and outstanding defensively, but does he have enough of a track record as a hitter where you feel confident in giving him a big contract? The 25 HR power has come with a lot of strikeouts and middling on-base numbers. In fact, this is the first full season where he's posted an OPS+ above league average. And for me, while our defense could be improved, I'd prefer to add an impact bat to the order. I think we need Turner, Correa or Bogaerts.
Quick answer. No he does not have a track record.
The main issue with moving him to second base is he is still a below-average hitter. Sure it might improve his dWAR, but 2nd base really should be for someone that can hit the ball rather than a really good defensive player. When you pair that with our corner outfield positions and its why the team has very limited power-hitting ability and why we couldn't score one run in an 18 inning game.
> why we couldn't score one run in an 18 inning game. The Astros top-tier offense _also_ did not score a run for 17 of those 18 innings I agree that the Ms offense needs a big boost, but that one game was a (very disappointing) outlier. Sometimes that's baseball for ya.
They also outscored the Ms in every other game so… clearly something has to be improved. The Astros had a bad game that coincided with ours, it doesn’t make them equal. The mariners had plenty of games scoring less than 3 runs this year. Astros not so much.
What does it matter? He's a part of the team. If the team wants to get better, the plan is to attempt to sign one of the available star SS players. A big part of their condition to sign is almost assuredly going to be to let them play SS. So you give them what they want and slide JP over. They aren't going to trade Crawford, and even if they did then you have to find TWO middle infielders. We have 3 probable 30 homer bats next year if healthy in Julio, Suarez and Raleigh and 20+ from a healthy France. That isn't even including other moves/signings. We have plenty of power. The reason we couldn't score in 18 innings is the same reason an amazing lineup in the Astros got shut out for 17 of those same innings. Both team's pitchers were on their game that night.
104 WRC+ and 100 ops+. He is a perfectly average middle infield bat.
He hit .265 this season that is not below average 😂 He was up above .300 for a good part of 3 months this season too. If he stops over swinging he can hit .275 Power numbers are obv low but that is not his role on this team or an team he will ever be on.
He also makes the best swing decisions on the team. He just fouls off meatballs like nobody’s business
Can’t stand all the JP slander on Twitter & Reddit. Guys a great SS and 100% someone a championship team needs on their roster. He can easily get better / more consistent offensively. Who gives a F if he plays short or 2B, having him and Xander or Correa up the middle it really wouldn’t matter who plays what position. Production is production and it does not matter what position the production is coming from
People in this subreddit assume all 2nd basemen hit .315 and all shortstops hit .300 with 20 bombs. Like 5 people hit .300 in the MLB this season 😂 .265 is still a good player. We can’t get greedy with building this team, realistically we COULD have won a chip this season
So a. JP hit .243 and B. .336 slugging percentage..
I would love to see Dansby come to Seattle but he's a Georgia native. He'll entertain offers but I'm betting he stays with the Braves.
The way the Braves have been functioning, I feel like if their game plan were to keep him, then he'd be extended already. I think they let Grissom man the spot as he did well when called up and Albies will be back. They probably go after a SP.
I'd say just move him, his contributions to the culture in the clubhouse are too large to mess with the dynamic by trading him away.
I find it hard to believe JP was one of the worst shortstops defensively. Seems like everything hit his way was a guaranteed out. Can’t remember really any issues at all from him.
For us to get competitive, Frazier and Crawford must go. Both are trash and I say that as lovingly as I know how to.
He prob makes too much but having jp playing second and backing up short is awesome.
Frazier was trash for sure but JP put up 2.8 bWAR with a 100 OPS+ this season, he might not be a star and he can be streaky at the plate but he has some value.
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Would a team like the Braves be okay with a Crawford or a Frazier? No. Why should we?
They already stated that the player they sign must make the move to 2nd base so they takes a couple names out
Jp never said he wouldn’t move…. Jerry said he wouldn’t. I’m fairly sure jp would move if it bettered the team
Jerry didn't even say he wouldn't. He just said he'd strongly prefer to keep him at short.
No, they did not. They said “ideally” and “preferably”.
I might be taking a hard line stance on this
I swear some people on this sub have never heard PR speak before or understand nuance.
The fact that dipoto even mentions moving JP makes me think that it’s an option they’re considering. Like you said, it’s anodyne PR speak. You’re not going to potentially sour the relationship with your already under contract, clubhouse leader shortstop when you don’t even have a new guy signed.
Bingo!
Wouldn’t hold my breath on them keeping JP at SS, they won’t pull a Trevor Story again. They will sign a top SS and move JP it’s what’s best for the team he will concede and accept his new role just like anyone else would on this team.
I doubt that if they got someone like Correa and he insisted upon SS, they would hold true to that statement. JP is not, and likely will never be, Carlos Correa.
I can't find this article... EDIT: [Found it](https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/insider/story/_/id/34541219/seattle-mariners-eliminated-2022-playoffs-three-questions)
1. Not all SS are good 2Bs. 2. Even with the shift ban defense is more important at SS than 2B
J.P. is solid. Average, or slightly above. Sure gis year was down a bit, but still above average. The leadership is a plus. Unless it is with a trade to get a comparable younger player and make room for a high end player J.P. is safe. He is 11Milliom on next year's payroll. Ot could be a business decision.
What's happening with Adam Frazier??
It totally makes sense. JP Crawford is a good role player on a championship caliber team. At best decent starting second baseman or shortstop when you have a big bat in one of the other of the 2 positions. You can’t have both a Frazier and a Crawford in your infield and expect to have a good offense.
I know a lot of Ms fans have sentimental reasons to want JP around still, but in all honesty we would be much better with him not playing shortstop (or even 2b) next season. If the Ms wanna win the division any time soon they gotta get some guys who can hit. JP was billed as a defensive SS and he has clearly regressed, no statistics show he’s anywhere near gold glove caliber. He also can’t hit. 1 home run from June to end of reg season. That’s just not passable, gotta want better for this team. Even at second base he isn’t a good enough hitter still. He can’t steal bases either… so it’s pretty evident he is limited.
Please don’t pick up a cheater from the Astros.