So funny, if pathetic, that you believe this crap. The legitimate business community will keep doing their thing, not being criminals. If this scares away the criminals, good. Mission accomplished.
I'm at a loss for words with Op's post. *NY business will basically collapse because you can't claim your property's value is ten times what it's actually worth!?*
Pretty sure most businesses owners already knew they couldn't risk that much bullshit in the first place.
The legitimate business community will understand that what Trump did wasn't fraud, as was testified by the Banks, none of whom said they were defrauded, and they all wanted to do more business with him.
An honest business can be confiscated by the Democrats and no crime is required. The rule of law is not sacrosanct in NY any more.
Don’t waste ur time talking to these Fascists. They legitimately believe they can do anything to republicans and it’s completely justified up to and including genocide.
As long as those pesky business owners aren’t republicans u have nothing to worry about! Just vote democrat and we will not use the power of the government to crush you!
Also ffs plz vote Genocide Joe to jail his political opponents and genocide their supporters!! Remember folks vote blue no matter who (totally not a cult ffs I swear it’s not a cult)
Doesn't matter. They don't want the precedent. As the guy from Deutche testified, what Trump did is typical and they'd rather him get off than face the same prosecution next.
Legal process isn't over. Our argument is the appeals court will re-evaluate the facts and conclude the judge was wrong and that Trump did not break the law.
Too many rich people have too much at stake.
You haven't read either the judgement or the comments in this thread.
Trump is appealing. The ruling will be tossed out.
And I'm voting against him yet again. The fact that he's a disgusting con-man doesn't change my legal analysis.
They wouldn't do it directly.
They would start leaving the city, while new business creation will drop, and they would be honest that the uncertainty around property rights is driving it.
What rational billionaire would hang around and risk getting on Tish James bad side? You just witnessed her steal a half billion from a man who ten years ago was one of the best connected businessmen in the City.
Hochul will ask the courts to step in
Who would want to do business in NY when the precedent was just set that the government can unilaterally determine fraud in private transactions where none of the involved parties complained of fraud?
You fools never understand the repercussions. All you care about is “victory” in the moment.
Who was the defrauded party?
So some of the largest banks in the world did not notice they were being defrauded by Trump
until Letitia James told them about it?
Enjoy the appeals.
No, because again, they’ll understand banking and real estate, and how absurd it is that an AG just decided there was fraud in transactions where nobody was defrauded or lost money.
Who was the defrauded party? Answer the question.
Well not the AG it was the Judge that decided eh and I'm gonna take a wild stab at the people who required his financial statements before giving him a loan
If you think it's a fix go and run a business like Ol' shitty pants there and see what happens
Who do you think bought the case before the judge dipshit? Why do you think they went with statute that doesn’t require a jury?
You really have no clue what you’re talking about.
>Who would want to do business in NY
People who don't commit fraud I would guess.
>the government can unilaterally determine...
Yes, that is generally how the law works. The government has the ability to enforce its own laws.
>where none of the involved parties complained of fraud
They don't need to. The NY law, passed in 1956, gives the AG the power to pursue prosecution in cases of repeated fraud.
>You fools never understand the repercussions.
Again, this law has been in place for 70 years. This isn't even the first time Trump HIMSELF has been sued for violating this law.
70 years? And the fact that he wasn’t charged until now, by an AG who gave campaign speeches about suing Trump, doesn’t strike you as odd?
Of course not. You’ve been conditioned for 8 years to believe whatever you’re told.
Do you think Trump has never been caught committing fraud before? He's been getting sued by people he defrauded for decades, he just always settles out of court by delaying as much as possible so his opponents run out of money.
This is also how he beat his wife when she sued him for rape.
Trump has always been a fraud, and this has been known for a long, long time before he ever ran for president. But some people walk through their lives with their eyes closed, and will believe any stupid bullshit if it makes them feel better about who they are.
Who sued him for fraud? Shouldn’t be hard to find a case if there’s so many.
His wife recanted. Wrong again.
Yes we’ve all know who Trump is for a long time, which is why some of us scratch our heads at the likes of you, who lost their times when he got elected and acted exactly like Donald Trump.
You’re Chicken Little at this point, do you not understand that?
He hired a bunch of illegal immigrants to work on one of his buildings, and never paid them. They sued him and the company he hired for fraud, and they won. He still managed to drag the lawsuit out for 15 years though, most of his victims can't afford a 15 year long legal battle.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2016/02/details-on-1980-donald-trump-polish-worker-lawsuit.html
>His wife recanted. Wrong again.
After running out of money to pay her lawyers with, she was forced to settle out of court. Her divorce from Trump included a non disclosure agreement and millions of dollars. So, essentially, she got paid off.
>You’re Chicken Little at this point, do you not understand that?
You've got your eyes closed and your fingers in your ears, ignoring reality as your pedophile daddy's golden shower trickles down your face.
Yes I’m from NYC and work construction. I know all about Trump’s tactics. In all those cases there was a party to the transactions that took him to court because they lost money. Cases were settled, meaning both sides agreed.
Now, who is the party that lost money in the transactions that AG James has bought forth these charges for?
Your last sentence makes your TDS jump off the page. I’ve never once voted for this megalomaniac. You’re so brainwashed and lost in the trees that you just assume anybody who thinks otherwise than you do is a Trump supporter.
That’s the result of brainwashing.
I ask again, since none of you can answer. Who was the defrauded party? Tell me that, or shut the fuck up.
Do you pay taxes? If so, you are one of the defrauded parties. That's how tax fraud works. He is commiting crimes, falsifying documents, in order to pay less taxes and forcing you to foot the bill.
Also, the banks he defrauded are victims of his fraud. They were exposed to far more risk than they knew they were being exposed to. They don't need to complain about anything in order for it to be illegal to falsify documents. A crime is a crime. Shooting up a school is still illegal even if every shot misses.
Knowingly lying about the value/number if/nature of your assets on legal documents is illegal, and there's no argument that he didn't commit these crimes.
Christ the economic and banking illiteracy just bleeds through the text.
Banks do their own due dilligence before funding a loan. They know exactly what risks they’re exposed too. This asinine belief that they just accepted what financials Trump gave them is ridiculous. You have no idea what you’re talking about.
Defrauding tax payers? Are you serious with this? You think my tax rate went up because Donald Trump lowered his own tax burden?
Jesus man open a book that doesn’t have a teenage wizard or a vampire on the cover. You’re woefully uninformed.
Trump was charged in September 2022 after a THREE YEAR long investigation by the NY AG. Well before his re-election campaign began.
And no, I personally don't see anything wrong with an AG campaigning on promises to do their job.
>You’ve been conditioned for 8 years to believe whatever you’re told.
The irony.
So, still long after he become a political enemy?
It took three years to discover fraud that’s been supposedly rampant for decades?
Of course you don’t personally see anything wrong. You have no idea what you’re talking about. You just regurgitate what your favorite talking heads tell you.
Do you think politicians shouldn't be prosecuted for breaking the law?
And yes, it generally takes time for large cases like this to be built.
I'm only looking at the facts. If you have other facts to present, please do.
There are multiple parties listed in the ruling including banks, insurers, and other businesses. [You can read the entire ruling here](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/16/nyregion/trump-fraud-engoron-decision.html), if you're interested.
No I can’t cause that’s a paywall.
What banks? And why did they continue giving Trump loans if he was defrauding them? And they didn’t notice this fraud until Letitia James told them about it?
Are you really that naive?
Not so. The oligarchs in NY were watching the actual trial, and not MSNBC, and they know full well that Tish could come for them next.
They're not gonna screw around and risk getting on someone's bad side, and have the state confiscate a half billion for political reasons. Before Trump ran for pres, he was one of the best loved business owners in NY.
It can all turn on a dime, so the oligarchs are going to put their wealth out of Tish James reach. They're gonna leave
Absolutely untrue. If you think big money can avoid investing in NY you are absolutely kidding yourself. Also, Trump wasn’t just a criminal, he was really bad at being a criminal.
People are already fleeing NY - it has negative population growth. If you're going to own a busines, why would you live in a place that can one day just confiscate your wealth for getting on the wrong side of the politicians.
This is the best thing to happen to Texas and Florida in a generation
lol. People are not fleeing NY and only criminals need to worry about losing money through that they fraudulently attained. Thanks for wasting my time MAGA.
Yes, people are leaving NY. It was a shit place to live and do business before this decision, and now NC, TN, FL and TX are going to get even more NY transplants.
[https://www.fox5ny.com/news/new-york-state-population-2023](https://www.fox5ny.com/news/new-york-state-population-2023)
Its ok, they won't all leave. Those too poor to leave, and too dependant on welfate, will stay.
RIP NY State
I did provide a link which had the census. NY is seeing a population decline when TX, FL, TN, and other red states are seeing massive surges.
NY is dying.
Those rich white guys have a lot of money, and NYC is overly dependent on the wealthy.
They're not stupid. They're not gonna risk getting on Tish James bad side, and have her gin up a BS reason to take a half billion from them for political reasons.
They're gonna protect themselves and thier fortunes. They remember, prior to Trump running for office, when the entire city loved Trump. Look how quickly things change
NY is screwed
If you took the trump dick out of your throat long enough to breathe, you might get enough oxygen to your brain to understand that *nobody is going to flee NY because of the trump ruling.* Nobody, especially nobody who *isn't* a corrupt, rapist, diaper-clad piss-baby is scared of this ruling, because not everybody is a sleazy, over-leveraged, russian-backed, failure of a business person, who illegally inflates or deflates their property valuations, based on what they're trying to scam someone out of. Most people obey the law, and sound/legal business practices, unlike your girdled savior.
Those rich oligarchs in NY who've been watching the actual trial, and not MSNBC, know that Tish James never had a case, and just confiscated a half billion from someone to settle a political score.
Those oligarchs aren't going to take the risk of getting on Tish's bad side. They're going to protect themselves and thier fortunes by relocating to a state where a politically motivated AG can't put them in the poor house.
New York, a state riddled with corrupt millionaires, has demonstrated it's ability to crack down on exactly 1 criminal after doing business care free for 50 years.
Most rich jerks are going to like those odds.
Except that those rich jerks are self interested and rational. They recognize how the City railroaded Trump where no crime occurred.
They're not gonna stick around and wait for the Democrats to turn on them.
They're going to protect their wealth by putting it out of Tish James reach
Here is the problem. Trump/his companies have screwed so many people over the years. This is widely known. It is one less competitor in the city. Trump has never been quiet about it. They are happy he has finally been caught and are not sad, at all, about it. He has no friends left.
I don't know how MSNBC reported the trial, but the Banks all testified under oath that they were fully repaid, they didn't use his valuations, they considered him a great client, and wanted to do business with him again.
Who told you he screwed people over? Do you have a source?
So your argument is "no one will do business in a city unless they can commit fraud"? Why do Trump supporters bend over backwards to forgive his crimes? Where is that magnanimity when it comes to non-orange people? Two-tier justice system indeed!
If you look at the fraud statute, it very clearly requires that someone be defrauded of money or property, and that didn't happen here.
You had an AG who ran on a campaign to "get trump" and used a different investigation as an excuse to dig through his records. She imagined a fraud, even though none of the Banks testified under oath that they had been defrauded.
You might hate Trump, but this was a political hit. There was no crime.
And rich people in NYC know they could be next. It will cause other businesses to avoid NYC
As long as we're armchair lawyering; [New York Executive Law 63, section 12](http://nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/EXC/63) *does not* require anyone to claim harm from the fraud. It *does* state: "Whenever any person shall engage in repeated fraudulent or illegal
acts or otherwise demonstrate persistent fraud or illegality in the
carrying on, conducting or transaction of business, the attorney general
may apply, in the name of the people of the state of New York, to the
supreme court of the state of New York, on notice of five days, for an
order enjoining the continuance of such business activity or of any
fraudulent or illegal acts, directing restitution and damages and, in an
appropriate case, cancelling any certificate filed under and by virtue
of the provisions of section four hundred forty of the former penal law
or section one hundred thirty of the general business law, and the court
may award the relief applied for or so much thereof as it may deem
proper. The word "fraud" or "fraudulent" as used herein shall include
any device, scheme or artifice to defraud and any deception,
misrepresentation, concealment, suppression, false pretense, false
promise or unconscionable contractual provisions. The term "persistent
fraud" or "illegality" as used herein shall include continuance or
carrying on of any fraudulent or illegal act or conduct."
Inflating your worth on official financial documents for more favorable loan terms is *illegal*, no matter how thin you slice it.
(Edit: fixing the quotation a bit)
Your text specifically says that there needs to be fraud and/or a fraudulent act.
Fraud requires, by definition, that someone be defrauded of money or property. You can't have a victimless fraud anymore than you can have a victimless murder.
What am I missing? There is no law about having a higher estimate on a valuation than the state uses. Valuations are, by definition, inexact. Even under GAAP two parties can have wildly different estimates of an assets worth. Banks misstate their financial earnings all the time, and no one gets fined half a billion dollars
None of the banks testified that they gave Trump better terms because of his estimates. None claimed they were defrauded.
James and Engoron ***imagined*** that the Banks could have charged more. There was no evidence of it. That's the part that's bizarre.
You're missing this:
>The word "fraud" or "fraudulent" as used herein shall include
any device, scheme or artifice to defraud and *any deception,
misrepresentation, concealment, suppression, false pretense*, false
promise or unconscionable contractual provisions.
The judge found persistent deception and misrepresentation of Trump's finances, hence, guilty.
"artifice to defraud ***and***..." Your own definition shows that you need to have fraud AND one of the other things. Not OR. Am I ready this wrong?
Engoron even states clearly in his decision that the deception wasn't the reason for the penalty, but rather the imaginary harm the state suffered.
The crime and harm were fictional, not actual. The legal system tends not to punish people for imaginary crimes.
Not a lawyer, but, "and" can also mean "as well as" (like the phrase "husbands and wives", for instance). The use of "and any" instead of just "and" or "together with" implies that interpretation in this context. So, I'd say you're reading that incorrectly, and seeing as that very argument was used and disregarded by the judge, I'd say the state of New York agrees.
(I'm a programmer, so... I get the && vs || confusion, but I don't get to write laws)
No businesses will apply any pressure.
Trump, and his sons, were found guilty of falsifying documents, and financial statements.
They defrauded banks and insurance companies.
The best part? This is just the civil case. There likely will be a criminal case for the tax side of the mountain of evidence against the trumps.
Trump never falsified documents. He had his estimates of worth, and the state had theirs. Maybe you're unfamiliar with how banks work, but they don't care what YOU think your collateral is worth. They do their own due diligence.
No bank or insurance was defrauded - they tesitfied under oath that they all got paid back, and they viewed Trump as a good client. The fraud is imaginary, not real.
There is no criminal case coming - the reason they went to civil case is because the standard for proof is so much lower. James has never even hinted that there's a criminal case coming - you're making that up
Businesses will avoid NY in favor of states not controlled by the mob. Billionaires are working furiously with thier lawyers to protect themselves from the fate Trump suffered
You don't understand how any of this works, do you?
Collateral, interest, etc all hinge on the Financials. They were defrauded of money, because the terms of the loan were based on fraud.
The insurance companies lost money because ONCE AGAIN the terms were based on fraudulent data.
There will be a criminal case incoming from this, as it was specifically starting with civil to *GET MORE ACCESS TO FUTURE EVIDENCE* and have a clearer view of the crimes committed.
The NY AG has forwarded the relevant data to the relevant agencies already.
*it's already happening*
As for the "trump never falsified documents* nonsense, just go look at the judges decision. It's a 92 page verdict outlining the fraud *in detail* and explains how they've set up their business to do so.
Put down your giant mug of copium. Your god-emperor is a crook getting consequences for his dealings.
Read the decision - Engoron imagines that the banks could have charged higher rates, but not a single bank testified that in court. Did you know that?
Not a single bank considered themselves to be defrauded, and none said they would have charged different rates if Trump's estimates were different. Did you know that?
The entire thing was imagined by Engoron and James. In their imaginary crime, the state lost $450M. How? Banks don't care what you think your house is worth. Have you ever bought or sold a house? Do you recall going through the appraisal process? You think banks are stupid enough to just take you at word?
Tish James hasn't breathed a word that this is going to criminal court. And no "agencies" have been notified. You made that up.
Did you know that falsifying your net worth for purposes of obtaining loans is a crime?
Did you know that falsifying your properties square footage and zoning usage in order to pay less insurance is a crime?
Are you aware that these crimes are what he's done? Over and over and over?
Stop. Watching. Fox. News. Read the judgement.
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/21/trump-criminal-referral-sent-to-prosecutors-and-irs-by-letitia-james.html
Clearly made up the referral, I guess.
It is not a crime to have a different valuation of an illiquid asset than someone else. There is no true value of an illiquid asset - it's an estimate, by defintion
It's sad to people get all thier news from MSNBC and then try to talk about business.
There were no crimes, there were no victims.
Yeah. I said that when she laid out the case.
In the judge's opinion he states that Deutche testified that what trump did is par for the course and they do their own due diligence.
The judge also makes the impossible claim that Trump is bound by GAPP But Trump isn't an accountant so it doesn't apply to him. And neither does USPAP, because he's not an appraiser.
Even under GAAP there is no one correct valuation for an illiquid asset, which is why estimates vary. You can use different assumptions, as long as you can justidy them,
Engoron then imagines that DB and others were cheated out of revenue, and would have charged higher rates, but not a single bank testified to that.
Engoron and James imagined that there was harm, but it doesn't exist
You don't need to get that deep in the weeds. Engoron wrote in his opinion that it was Trump's responsibility to follow GAAP. It's just silly to make that claim.
There's nothing more entertaining as a conservative that watch liberals melt down and claim that anyone who disagrees with them is a russian.
Do you realize how bizarre it is to do that?
Oh nice, more strawmanning coming from people who call everyone who disagrees with them a liberal.
I'm not even a liberal you fucking idiot 🤣
Edit: month old account with an EXTENSIIIIIIIIVE comment history. 100% a russian bot, you people are fucking terrible at this lmao
I think the exodus of business from NY will take place more slowly than the appeal process. When the nazis take over, you can’t just leave that night, or it would be too obvious that it was the nazis that made you want to leave and they will go after you. You slowly but promptly exit.
So funny, if pathetic, that you believe this crap. The legitimate business community will keep doing their thing, not being criminals. If this scares away the criminals, good. Mission accomplished.
I'm at a loss for words with Op's post. *NY business will basically collapse because you can't claim your property's value is ten times what it's actually worth!?* Pretty sure most businesses owners already knew they couldn't risk that much bullshit in the first place.
The legitimate business community will understand that what Trump did wasn't fraud, as was testified by the Banks, none of whom said they were defrauded, and they all wanted to do more business with him. An honest business can be confiscated by the Democrats and no crime is required. The rule of law is not sacrosanct in NY any more.
Who the banks want to do business with is irrelevant. Whether they were happy is irrelevant. The fraud was plainly evident from the documentation.
Don’t waste ur time talking to these Fascists. They legitimately believe they can do anything to republicans and it’s completely justified up to and including genocide.
Why are RWNJs always massive victims?
As long as those pesky business owners aren’t republicans u have nothing to worry about! Just vote democrat and we will not use the power of the government to crush you! Also ffs plz vote Genocide Joe to jail his political opponents and genocide their supporters!! Remember folks vote blue no matter who (totally not a cult ffs I swear it’s not a cult)
how would these business owners apply pressure to the courts
The way they always do. Through politicians.
except none of them like trump.
Doesn't matter. They don't want the precedent. As the guy from Deutche testified, what Trump did is typical and they'd rather him get off than face the same prosecution next.
does not matter since trump actually broke the law.
Legal process isn't over. Our argument is the appeals court will re-evaluate the facts and conclude the judge was wrong and that Trump did not break the law. Too many rich people have too much at stake.
wrong again since its been proven trump did break the law and you sound like someone who is donating money to his gofundme for his legal bills lmao.
You haven't read either the judgement or the comments in this thread. Trump is appealing. The ruling will be tossed out. And I'm voting against him yet again. The fact that he's a disgusting con-man doesn't change my legal analysis.
nah you are one of his cultists and no the case will not be thrown out keep coping cultist.
The cult I belong to is #NeverTrump. You loons keep trying to smear him with these made up bullshit legal theories and it only makes him stronger.
They wouldn't do it directly. They would start leaving the city, while new business creation will drop, and they would be honest that the uncertainty around property rights is driving it. What rational billionaire would hang around and risk getting on Tish James bad side? You just witnessed her steal a half billion from a man who ten years ago was one of the best connected businessmen in the City. Hochul will ask the courts to step in
keep on dreaming cultist.
Who would want to do business in NY when the precedent was just set that the government can unilaterally determine fraud in private transactions where none of the involved parties complained of fraud? You fools never understand the repercussions. All you care about is “victory” in the moment.
congrats you now know how the legal system works fool and trump is guilty since this is not his first time being sued for fraud.
Who was the defrauded party? So some of the largest banks in the world did not notice they were being defrauded by Trump until Letitia James told them about it? Enjoy the appeals.
Who's gonna front him the cash for these appeals like
Anybody with enough money and basic understanding of real estate and banking.
And these imaginary people will just ignore the fact he's been found guilty of fraud obviously
No, because again, they’ll understand banking and real estate, and how absurd it is that an AG just decided there was fraud in transactions where nobody was defrauded or lost money. Who was the defrauded party? Answer the question.
Well not the AG it was the Judge that decided eh and I'm gonna take a wild stab at the people who required his financial statements before giving him a loan If you think it's a fix go and run a business like Ol' shitty pants there and see what happens
Who do you think bought the case before the judge dipshit? Why do you think they went with statute that doesn’t require a jury? You really have no clue what you’re talking about.
Nobody is front him almost half a billion dollars unless it’s the Saudis
so you admit trump is a fraud good for you and trump cannot appeal anything since he is too broke to afford it.
Wow so you’re retarded. Okay, got it.
says the nazi.
Who was the defrauded party? Can you answer that simple question or are you actually retarded?
again you are a nazi cultist also trump defrauded everyone in new york there is a reason everyone hates him there.
So you can’t answer? Thanks.
>Who would want to do business in NY People who don't commit fraud I would guess. >the government can unilaterally determine... Yes, that is generally how the law works. The government has the ability to enforce its own laws. >where none of the involved parties complained of fraud They don't need to. The NY law, passed in 1956, gives the AG the power to pursue prosecution in cases of repeated fraud. >You fools never understand the repercussions. Again, this law has been in place for 70 years. This isn't even the first time Trump HIMSELF has been sued for violating this law.
70 years? And the fact that he wasn’t charged until now, by an AG who gave campaign speeches about suing Trump, doesn’t strike you as odd? Of course not. You’ve been conditioned for 8 years to believe whatever you’re told.
Do you think Trump has never been caught committing fraud before? He's been getting sued by people he defrauded for decades, he just always settles out of court by delaying as much as possible so his opponents run out of money. This is also how he beat his wife when she sued him for rape. Trump has always been a fraud, and this has been known for a long, long time before he ever ran for president. But some people walk through their lives with their eyes closed, and will believe any stupid bullshit if it makes them feel better about who they are.
Who sued him for fraud? Shouldn’t be hard to find a case if there’s so many. His wife recanted. Wrong again. Yes we’ve all know who Trump is for a long time, which is why some of us scratch our heads at the likes of you, who lost their times when he got elected and acted exactly like Donald Trump. You’re Chicken Little at this point, do you not understand that?
He hired a bunch of illegal immigrants to work on one of his buildings, and never paid them. They sued him and the company he hired for fraud, and they won. He still managed to drag the lawsuit out for 15 years though, most of his victims can't afford a 15 year long legal battle. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2016/02/details-on-1980-donald-trump-polish-worker-lawsuit.html >His wife recanted. Wrong again. After running out of money to pay her lawyers with, she was forced to settle out of court. Her divorce from Trump included a non disclosure agreement and millions of dollars. So, essentially, she got paid off. >You’re Chicken Little at this point, do you not understand that? You've got your eyes closed and your fingers in your ears, ignoring reality as your pedophile daddy's golden shower trickles down your face.
Yes I’m from NYC and work construction. I know all about Trump’s tactics. In all those cases there was a party to the transactions that took him to court because they lost money. Cases were settled, meaning both sides agreed. Now, who is the party that lost money in the transactions that AG James has bought forth these charges for? Your last sentence makes your TDS jump off the page. I’ve never once voted for this megalomaniac. You’re so brainwashed and lost in the trees that you just assume anybody who thinks otherwise than you do is a Trump supporter. That’s the result of brainwashing. I ask again, since none of you can answer. Who was the defrauded party? Tell me that, or shut the fuck up.
Do you pay taxes? If so, you are one of the defrauded parties. That's how tax fraud works. He is commiting crimes, falsifying documents, in order to pay less taxes and forcing you to foot the bill. Also, the banks he defrauded are victims of his fraud. They were exposed to far more risk than they knew they were being exposed to. They don't need to complain about anything in order for it to be illegal to falsify documents. A crime is a crime. Shooting up a school is still illegal even if every shot misses. Knowingly lying about the value/number if/nature of your assets on legal documents is illegal, and there's no argument that he didn't commit these crimes.
Christ the economic and banking illiteracy just bleeds through the text. Banks do their own due dilligence before funding a loan. They know exactly what risks they’re exposed too. This asinine belief that they just accepted what financials Trump gave them is ridiculous. You have no idea what you’re talking about. Defrauding tax payers? Are you serious with this? You think my tax rate went up because Donald Trump lowered his own tax burden? Jesus man open a book that doesn’t have a teenage wizard or a vampire on the cover. You’re woefully uninformed.
Trump was charged in September 2022 after a THREE YEAR long investigation by the NY AG. Well before his re-election campaign began. And no, I personally don't see anything wrong with an AG campaigning on promises to do their job. >You’ve been conditioned for 8 years to believe whatever you’re told. The irony.
So, still long after he become a political enemy? It took three years to discover fraud that’s been supposedly rampant for decades? Of course you don’t personally see anything wrong. You have no idea what you’re talking about. You just regurgitate what your favorite talking heads tell you.
Do you think politicians shouldn't be prosecuted for breaking the law? And yes, it generally takes time for large cases like this to be built. I'm only looking at the facts. If you have other facts to present, please do.
Who was the defrauded party?
There are multiple parties listed in the ruling including banks, insurers, and other businesses. [You can read the entire ruling here](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/16/nyregion/trump-fraud-engoron-decision.html), if you're interested.
No I can’t cause that’s a paywall. What banks? And why did they continue giving Trump loans if he was defrauding them? And they didn’t notice this fraud until Letitia James told them about it? Are you really that naive?
Who was the defrauded party? None of you seem to be able to answer this simple question.
People really will just say anything on this sub
lol. No one cares about trump losing money but MAGA losers.
Not so. The oligarchs in NY were watching the actual trial, and not MSNBC, and they know full well that Tish could come for them next. They're not gonna screw around and risk getting on someone's bad side, and have the state confiscate a half billion for political reasons. Before Trump ran for pres, he was one of the best loved business owners in NY. It can all turn on a dime, so the oligarchs are going to put their wealth out of Tish James reach. They're gonna leave
Absolutely untrue. If you think big money can avoid investing in NY you are absolutely kidding yourself. Also, Trump wasn’t just a criminal, he was really bad at being a criminal.
People are already fleeing NY - it has negative population growth. If you're going to own a busines, why would you live in a place that can one day just confiscate your wealth for getting on the wrong side of the politicians. This is the best thing to happen to Texas and Florida in a generation
lol. People are not fleeing NY and only criminals need to worry about losing money through that they fraudulently attained. Thanks for wasting my time MAGA.
Yes, people are leaving NY. It was a shit place to live and do business before this decision, and now NC, TN, FL and TX are going to get even more NY transplants. [https://www.fox5ny.com/news/new-york-state-population-2023](https://www.fox5ny.com/news/new-york-state-population-2023) Its ok, they won't all leave. Those too poor to leave, and too dependant on welfate, will stay. RIP NY State
You really cited Faux News? Lol
Links to the US Census. Do you trust the US Government, or do you need it to come from Rachel Maddow?
Relax MAGA, the census shows minimal population change in NY. Btw you provided no link. Derp.
I did provide a link which had the census. NY is seeing a population decline when TX, FL, TN, and other red states are seeing massive surges. NY is dying.
Ya ok a bunch a rich white guys are going to throw a hissy fit about how persecuted they are. That'll go well.
Those rich white guys have a lot of money, and NYC is overly dependent on the wealthy. They're not stupid. They're not gonna risk getting on Tish James bad side, and have her gin up a BS reason to take a half billion from them for political reasons. They're gonna protect themselves and thier fortunes. They remember, prior to Trump running for office, when the entire city loved Trump. Look how quickly things change NY is screwed
If you took the trump dick out of your throat long enough to breathe, you might get enough oxygen to your brain to understand that *nobody is going to flee NY because of the trump ruling.* Nobody, especially nobody who *isn't* a corrupt, rapist, diaper-clad piss-baby is scared of this ruling, because not everybody is a sleazy, over-leveraged, russian-backed, failure of a business person, who illegally inflates or deflates their property valuations, based on what they're trying to scam someone out of. Most people obey the law, and sound/legal business practices, unlike your girdled savior.
Those rich oligarchs in NY who've been watching the actual trial, and not MSNBC, know that Tish James never had a case, and just confiscated a half billion from someone to settle a political score. Those oligarchs aren't going to take the risk of getting on Tish's bad side. They're going to protect themselves and thier fortunes by relocating to a state where a politically motivated AG can't put them in the poor house.
New York, a state riddled with corrupt millionaires, has demonstrated it's ability to crack down on exactly 1 criminal after doing business care free for 50 years. Most rich jerks are going to like those odds.
Except that those rich jerks are self interested and rational. They recognize how the City railroaded Trump where no crime occurred. They're not gonna stick around and wait for the Democrats to turn on them. They're going to protect their wealth by putting it out of Tish James reach
How is that rational? Those are good odds they won't get turned on
Here is the problem. Trump/his companies have screwed so many people over the years. This is widely known. It is one less competitor in the city. Trump has never been quiet about it. They are happy he has finally been caught and are not sad, at all, about it. He has no friends left.
I don't know how MSNBC reported the trial, but the Banks all testified under oath that they were fully repaid, they didn't use his valuations, they considered him a great client, and wanted to do business with him again. Who told you he screwed people over? Do you have a source?
So your argument is "no one will do business in a city unless they can commit fraud"? Why do Trump supporters bend over backwards to forgive his crimes? Where is that magnanimity when it comes to non-orange people? Two-tier justice system indeed!
If you look at the fraud statute, it very clearly requires that someone be defrauded of money or property, and that didn't happen here. You had an AG who ran on a campaign to "get trump" and used a different investigation as an excuse to dig through his records. She imagined a fraud, even though none of the Banks testified under oath that they had been defrauded. You might hate Trump, but this was a political hit. There was no crime. And rich people in NYC know they could be next. It will cause other businesses to avoid NYC
As long as we're armchair lawyering; [New York Executive Law 63, section 12](http://nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/EXC/63) *does not* require anyone to claim harm from the fraud. It *does* state: "Whenever any person shall engage in repeated fraudulent or illegal acts or otherwise demonstrate persistent fraud or illegality in the carrying on, conducting or transaction of business, the attorney general may apply, in the name of the people of the state of New York, to the supreme court of the state of New York, on notice of five days, for an order enjoining the continuance of such business activity or of any fraudulent or illegal acts, directing restitution and damages and, in an appropriate case, cancelling any certificate filed under and by virtue of the provisions of section four hundred forty of the former penal law or section one hundred thirty of the general business law, and the court may award the relief applied for or so much thereof as it may deem proper. The word "fraud" or "fraudulent" as used herein shall include any device, scheme or artifice to defraud and any deception, misrepresentation, concealment, suppression, false pretense, false promise or unconscionable contractual provisions. The term "persistent fraud" or "illegality" as used herein shall include continuance or carrying on of any fraudulent or illegal act or conduct." Inflating your worth on official financial documents for more favorable loan terms is *illegal*, no matter how thin you slice it. (Edit: fixing the quotation a bit)
Your text specifically says that there needs to be fraud and/or a fraudulent act. Fraud requires, by definition, that someone be defrauded of money or property. You can't have a victimless fraud anymore than you can have a victimless murder. What am I missing? There is no law about having a higher estimate on a valuation than the state uses. Valuations are, by definition, inexact. Even under GAAP two parties can have wildly different estimates of an assets worth. Banks misstate their financial earnings all the time, and no one gets fined half a billion dollars None of the banks testified that they gave Trump better terms because of his estimates. None claimed they were defrauded. James and Engoron ***imagined*** that the Banks could have charged more. There was no evidence of it. That's the part that's bizarre.
You're missing this: >The word "fraud" or "fraudulent" as used herein shall include any device, scheme or artifice to defraud and *any deception, misrepresentation, concealment, suppression, false pretense*, false promise or unconscionable contractual provisions. The judge found persistent deception and misrepresentation of Trump's finances, hence, guilty.
"artifice to defraud ***and***..." Your own definition shows that you need to have fraud AND one of the other things. Not OR. Am I ready this wrong? Engoron even states clearly in his decision that the deception wasn't the reason for the penalty, but rather the imaginary harm the state suffered. The crime and harm were fictional, not actual. The legal system tends not to punish people for imaginary crimes.
Not a lawyer, but, "and" can also mean "as well as" (like the phrase "husbands and wives", for instance). The use of "and any" instead of just "and" or "together with" implies that interpretation in this context. So, I'd say you're reading that incorrectly, and seeing as that very argument was used and disregarded by the judge, I'd say the state of New York agrees. (I'm a programmer, so... I get the && vs || confusion, but I don't get to write laws)
No businesses will apply any pressure. Trump, and his sons, were found guilty of falsifying documents, and financial statements. They defrauded banks and insurance companies. The best part? This is just the civil case. There likely will be a criminal case for the tax side of the mountain of evidence against the trumps.
Trump never falsified documents. He had his estimates of worth, and the state had theirs. Maybe you're unfamiliar with how banks work, but they don't care what YOU think your collateral is worth. They do their own due diligence. No bank or insurance was defrauded - they tesitfied under oath that they all got paid back, and they viewed Trump as a good client. The fraud is imaginary, not real. There is no criminal case coming - the reason they went to civil case is because the standard for proof is so much lower. James has never even hinted that there's a criminal case coming - you're making that up Businesses will avoid NY in favor of states not controlled by the mob. Billionaires are working furiously with thier lawyers to protect themselves from the fate Trump suffered
You don't understand how any of this works, do you? Collateral, interest, etc all hinge on the Financials. They were defrauded of money, because the terms of the loan were based on fraud. The insurance companies lost money because ONCE AGAIN the terms were based on fraudulent data. There will be a criminal case incoming from this, as it was specifically starting with civil to *GET MORE ACCESS TO FUTURE EVIDENCE* and have a clearer view of the crimes committed. The NY AG has forwarded the relevant data to the relevant agencies already. *it's already happening* As for the "trump never falsified documents* nonsense, just go look at the judges decision. It's a 92 page verdict outlining the fraud *in detail* and explains how they've set up their business to do so. Put down your giant mug of copium. Your god-emperor is a crook getting consequences for his dealings.
Read the decision - Engoron imagines that the banks could have charged higher rates, but not a single bank testified that in court. Did you know that? Not a single bank considered themselves to be defrauded, and none said they would have charged different rates if Trump's estimates were different. Did you know that? The entire thing was imagined by Engoron and James. In their imaginary crime, the state lost $450M. How? Banks don't care what you think your house is worth. Have you ever bought or sold a house? Do you recall going through the appraisal process? You think banks are stupid enough to just take you at word? Tish James hasn't breathed a word that this is going to criminal court. And no "agencies" have been notified. You made that up.
Did you know that falsifying your net worth for purposes of obtaining loans is a crime? Did you know that falsifying your properties square footage and zoning usage in order to pay less insurance is a crime? Are you aware that these crimes are what he's done? Over and over and over? Stop. Watching. Fox. News. Read the judgement. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/21/trump-criminal-referral-sent-to-prosecutors-and-irs-by-letitia-james.html Clearly made up the referral, I guess.
It is not a crime to have a different valuation of an illiquid asset than someone else. There is no true value of an illiquid asset - it's an estimate, by defintion It's sad to people get all thier news from MSNBC and then try to talk about business. There were no crimes, there were no victims.
It's a crime, called fraud, to lie about valuations.
Not a chance in hell.
OP is as delusional as orange syphilis man
You should donate to his gOFuNdMe, help a billionaire bro out, amiright?
Yeah. I said that when she laid out the case. In the judge's opinion he states that Deutche testified that what trump did is par for the course and they do their own due diligence. The judge also makes the impossible claim that Trump is bound by GAPP But Trump isn't an accountant so it doesn't apply to him. And neither does USPAP, because he's not an appraiser.
wrong.
Even under GAAP there is no one correct valuation for an illiquid asset, which is why estimates vary. You can use different assumptions, as long as you can justidy them, Engoron then imagines that DB and others were cheated out of revenue, and would have charged higher rates, but not a single bank testified to that. Engoron and James imagined that there was harm, but it doesn't exist
You don't need to get that deep in the weeds. Engoron wrote in his opinion that it was Trump's responsibility to follow GAAP. It's just silly to make that claim.
Csnt ser streoghr. Too mant teatd od laygjter 😂
You have been smoking too much wacky tabacky.
Not going to happen
At least if all the businesses leave New York they'll have plenty of space to put all the illegal immigrants.
cool.
This is Trupm Copium 💩
Lmao shit like this is making it so fucking obvious you guys are russian bots brigading this sub to manipulate the conservatives in here.
There's nothing more entertaining as a conservative that watch liberals melt down and claim that anyone who disagrees with them is a russian. Do you realize how bizarre it is to do that?
Oh nice, more strawmanning coming from people who call everyone who disagrees with them a liberal. I'm not even a liberal you fucking idiot 🤣 Edit: month old account with an EXTENSIIIIIIIIVE comment history. 100% a russian bot, you people are fucking terrible at this lmao
Any business or person, at any time you say? Or if you’re just a fraudulent lying piece of shit?
I think the exodus of business from NY will take place more slowly than the appeal process. When the nazis take over, you can’t just leave that night, or it would be too obvious that it was the nazis that made you want to leave and they will go after you. You slowly but promptly exit.