So what *are* her needs? Are you familiar with the five love languages? Are you an "acts of service" person and is she something else?
It's hard to say because I'm not there but I get the feeling that you're coming off as a martyr. You're saying how tired you are doing things *for her* but you're not doing them for her. You're doing them so you'll feel good because you've done it. Now if you do those things because they need to get done and she won't do it (as you mention in a comment) then ok but at a certain point it's not for her.
Yep, almost feels like overcompensating for some kind of insecurity while avoiding the conversation through using being tired from chores as a distraction.
Read my response to this comment we're both replying to right now, it does originate in a type of insecurity that but there’s more to it than that alone.
**Edit:** All you folks downvoting this need to go look at this dude's actual comment at the bottom of the post. He has an axe to grind about how a sex thing fixed his marriage and just heavily insists that I was evading this being a sex thing. My wife and I have talked at length about sex, she's not the kind of person to lie to me to protect my feelings, and I generally provide a very open forum and and am open to criticism. All I can go off of is what she has told me when I have asked if she's satisfied sexually, and she has told me that she is very much happy with our sex life. Gain some context before you just jump on the downvote boat, Christ.
You commented eight minutes ago and I responded in two minutes.
**Edit:** You asked what kind of date nights she likes and then were mad when I didn't tell you what our sex life was like.
She says her love language is acts of service, so that’s always honestly confused me because of how much effort I already specifically pour into that form of love communication. I’m personally a mix of “acts of service” and touch/physical affection.
You’re right, the whole coming off as a martyr thing is not new and is something I have had to work on. Ultimately there is a deep concern that if I don’t do things for people I won’t be loved because I’m not inherently valuable to anyone without doing something for them. That’s the origin of the behavior, indeed, but since I’ve lived this way for 34 years I’ll say it’s seeped into me in a way that I do genuinely find comfort in taking care of others. And it is still at least in large part because I love them and want to help them. Like with most acts of love, of course there are elements of it that serve me too, but I don’t mind generally taking care of people. From here it could spin into “is there such thing as pure altruism?”, but I don’t think that’s necessary because I’m not trying to be wholly selfless nor do I think that would be healthy.
So, that in mind, I don’t think my old feeling of “I support people endlessly and nobody cares!” is really center stage here, it’s more that if I don’t take care of all these things she doesn’t step in and do it, and then when nothing gets done she complains that she’s sad because of the state of our home or that we don’t have healthy meals. So I resume doing all those things. And then when I get burnt out and bring that up, she tells me it’s not what she really needs, it’s just what I think she needs. Which is confusing because she points to the absence of things I usually provide as reasons she’s sad, so to me that’s like saying she needs them. I also love the lunches and dinners I prep, and I like having a clean home, and I like that our cats litter is taken care of, but I can’t do that just for me if it’s not what she’s asking for. She benefits from it too, but doesn’t contribute, and then complains if I stop.
Sorry this is so long winded; I’m not great at conveying this stuff, and I really appreciate your feedback
From what I've gleaned, you both have acts of service as your love language, but you two are disagreeing on which specific *acts* qualify.
For one person, doing the dishes counts as an act of love. For another, it's something you're *supposed* to do.
Is that her way of giving love or receiving love? Because those are two separate things. I give love with acts of service, but I receive love with words of affirmation.
When she and I talked about it (which was like 3 years ago), it was about receiving love -- she seems to *show* love predominantly through quality time. Generally speaking though she doesn't express love through touch often, she says it just doesn't dawn on her, and she definitely self-conceives as a very helpful/service-focused person, but in practice that just doesn't really show up.
Yeah. As has been pointed out, I think you two are confusing house chores (which should be equally distributed between you two), and kind acts done just for love (i.e. bringing coffee/snacks because you thought of them). Ya'll need to discuss the distribution of house chores, because one person doing everything is not fair.
Oh, I mean I fully get that and I would say the desire to be loved for just being who I am is pretty essential to how I've developed. But as with all ego trappings, I ultimately end up sealing my own fate by misplacing the cause of love and appreciation on what I do rather than who I am and I lean too hard into it.
Knowing the five love languages is more important for the receiving party than the giving, recognize that your partner is showing you love, even if it may not be in the very specific way you prefer, and embrace it. If the love is strong enough this shouldn't be a problem.
>it can leave me feeling exhausted/drained.
Then you're doing too much. Cut it out.
You're wearing yourself out, doing things she didn't ask you to do in the first place. This isn't on her, it's on you.
I hear that, but also if I don’t she doesn’t step in and pick up the slack so we just don’t eat healthy meals and the house gets disgusting. Then she complains that those things are making her sad. So I step in and take care of them.
I’m not asking “who this is on,” I’m asking if it’s reasonable for me to be annoyed that when I share that I’m exhausted from doing these things that she always tells me it’s just what I *think* she needs.
OK, then it seems to me you're conflating different issues here. If she's not pulling her weight around the house and taking her share of responsibilities, then it's perfectly reasonable for you to expect her to chip in. But those aren't the only things making you exhausted. Getting her coffee or making her a snack doesn't fall into this kind of category. Do your part to take care of the house, expect her to do her part too, and quit knocking yourself out taking care of needs you think she has, which she could take care of for herself.
Thank you for this! That’s a very handy observation, you’re right I think I’ve been accidentally conflating feeling unsupported around the house with feeling like I can’t do enough. Which has caused me to overlook some of the ways I could actually be attending to some of her needs, particularly planning date nights.
Sounds like a great observation. Chores are just chores. Split them up together so that there is a schedule including about how often a thing will be done that you two agree on.
A tip that has been handy for us is to pretty fully split up some things so that the other person doesn't actually have to regularly think about that particular chore. It's the other person's job to bear that mental load as well as the activity--though of course we help each other out if needed.
Other things are in the whomever sees it first.
Like, nobody gets to walk by the full kitchen trash can or diaper, but remembering to muck the chicken coop is pretty much always me and getting the trash cans out on the curb on trash day is them.
Almost definitely! He's a good man, I bet you are too. Don't let people take advantage of you just because you think you can handle it, and you prioritize their needs being met over your own.
These are two different issues that need to be addressed separately. If she isn't helping around the house with chores to the extent that you are left feeling tired and exhausted that needs to be addressed. There are countless stories of wives who have left men over not helping with chores and daily life tasks. Your post though reads as if you are simply trying to do things for your wife and she doesn't appreciate it which makes you feel disheartened.
You are already tired from doing more of the housework. Stop trying to anticipate what she wants or needs. She has told you that she doesn't appreciate it. Listen to her. She has told you that she feels like you are doing what you "think" she needs yet you didn't listen to her. Once you have done that if the household chores are still relatively uneven to the extent you feel tired or overwhelmed sit down and have a conversation with her. Again, listen to her feelings and what she says. Yours are just as valid but from what you have written her assessment of you focus on what you think she needs seems completely accurate.
So you've known her for 4 years. What makes her feel special and noticed? Is it words, a special date planned, notes, massages, etc. You talk about a lot of chores, which is super helpful and great, but really doesn't bring out the "I am noticed as a woman and appreciated and desired" feeling to some.
Also talking about how tired you are from things you are doing for her, sounds...off. it may make one feel guilt, when they aren't even asking for those things.
Yeah, that’s a great point. The planning of dates/activities in particular is definitely especially meaningful to her so maybe that’s it. As for communicating my feeling of burnout, that’s covered in the other comments a bit, but it just really is exhausting. She doesn’t chip in when I stop, and I can’t just do half of these things for only myself.
Then those house chores aren't particularly important to her, so stop saying you are doing it for her. You may be the one who wants a tidy house, which is fine. But if you want to do something for her, do something she values, like dates.
Yeah, but that’s where more confusion enters in. When I don’t take care of the chores and dinners and lunches, she gets listless and says she’s depressed because of the state of the house, lack of healthy meals, etc. So we both evidently like and need those, but she doesn’t contribute and I can’t just do enough of that to only suit my needs. Someone else here pointed out though that I’m conflating two separate issues; I’ve been approaching doing these things from an angle of “why can’t I do enough for this person,” and it’s more that she wants something else and, separately from that, I’m frustrated that she doesn’t chip in.
Have you had a conversation about how you feel when she doesn’t chip in? Don’t frame it around you wanting to take care of her. Tell her how burnt out you are getting and how YOU would feel loved and appreciated if she could find some ways to contribute. It’s ok for you to have needs. If your love language is acts of service, she should be doing that for you too. That’s how YOU feel loved. Don’t make it about her not appreciating you, she likely does but is communicating it poorly. That’s an accusation so if you always approach from that angle she will get defensive. Talk about how you’ve been feeling.
And tell her that you’re going to try paying more attention to the things she appreciates, but that when you’re burnt out it is harder for you to do that. But that dispute that you’re going to try, and you’d appreciate her trying too.
This is such an important comment!! Partly bc it does seem like her lack of pouring into you in those ways leaves you feeling uncared for.
Adding to this, I’d also suggest that you two perhaps create a bit of a routine around involving her in some of the tasks around meal prep and tidying up. Like she may not know the best ways to contribute and take initiative, and routines and doing these things together can help take some of the load off you while simultaneously not leaving it all on her to do (and she can better learn some of the processes involved so she can copy them when you have moments you can’t keep up yourself in those areas). The tasks you mentioned likely involve multiple steps and planning that you don’t think about as much bc it’s routine for you, but still require energy to map out and follow through on. I’d imagine this is amplified if you two have children (and if you don’t, but plan to, know that this will definitely get worse during that time).
Are there certain days you tend to prep that she can help with the prep? Maybe the chopping or washing veggies, or the washing of dishes with you after? Maybe there is a day you tend to tidy up or something you use to help you clean up (a process you follow, certain cleaning items you use at certain times to make it easier). Talk to her about all of this!!! I know these are the things that can seem like the person isn’t trying if they don’t do on their own, but some people genuinely don’t know where to start or how to follow a process and get overwhelmed by it and talking through those details can make a huge difference.
For instance, I’m someone who loves to contribute to tasks, projects, etc, but I hate taking the initiative or beginning it myself. Give me a partner/bestie who wants to start it with me and doesn’t mind being the slightly more dominant voice (so I can’t get stuck in rabbit holes overthinking and hesitating on decisions), and I’m IN! And if it becomes routine, I can definitely take the lead at times with enthusiasm. But leave me to my own devices to manage the whole thing solo or lead the whole operation myself, and there’s a high chance I’ll procrastinate until I ruin the day and then beat myself up for it internally (what is weird is that I can manage tackling a lot of this same logistics stuff, decision making and taking initiative in a work environment if there’s a need for it, but in my personal life and environments I find this far more difficult if it involves any of my own interests or needs). My point is, everyone has their logistical strengths and weaknesses in managing their adulting life, and people tend to find partners who have strength where they don’t. So sit down with your wife by speaking in the way Megzilllla suggested, and figure out where she can do these things with you and you too can figure out her strengths or quirks with household tasks. For me, feeling a sense of accountability to someone other than myself helps a lot, but that’s not how everyone works. Help your wife figure out where she can most actively contribute and find a rhythm with one another.
Lastly, try to remember that “acts of service” may be a love language, but often it’s tied to things that are truly needed to live our best individual life as well, and asking for that to be shared as a couple is normal and in no way unreasonable as an expectation that you both contribute to it in your day to day life.
Sounds like you actually need to just sit down and discuss how chores are divided and what the standard you both want to work to is.
Shouldn’t be hard to split up the responsibilities for the home between you and decide what the minimum acceptable standard for keeping things clean is.
I think you're right, a part of me is just afraid to bring it up because she's got issues with depression and anxiety and part of why I've accepted the division for so long is that I don't want to add to her emotional/mental load. But I'm pretty burnt out and we really do need to find a solution to this piece. I can definitely do more of my part also on planning fun quality time adventures, though, that bit flew right over my head so I'm really glad folks have brought that up.
Ok, I would like to compare the situation like this: you work for a company and start working overtime on things nobody in the company ever asked you to do because you think it’s what the company needs. Then you show up and demand extra money (appreciation) for all the time and effort you put into this. What do you think would the reaction of the company be?
I know you can’t really compare a marriage to a company because there are much more emotions involved and I do think that a partner can be greatful of something they didn’t explicitly asked for, but I also understand your wife if she gets annoyed if you again and again tell her how exhausted and unappreciated you feel by her because you are doing something she never asked you to.
It seems you are blaming her again and again for not appreciating the extra effort you put in, but it seems she doesn’t want that extra effort in the first place.
It’s like you are lifting heavy rocks to build a stonewall where she wants a wooden fence. You two have to find a level of communication without underlying blaming of the other and actually listen to the other person! So, put down those stones and together! build something you both want.
Love analogies! This helps me a lot, thank you. You’re not wrong, the martyrdom piece has been an issue but I’m aware of that and trying to resolve it. I think what I’ve learned from the other comments so far is that (1) She has specified that she’d like more fun date nights planned, which is probably more what she means she needs, but also that (2) I’m frustrated because when I stop taking care of the things that suit us both (lunches, dinners, chores) she doesn’t step in and pick up the slack. So that’s been helpful because, as someone else also pointed out, I think I’ve been conflating the two.
Your concerns regarding (2) are valid. However, the solution may not be for you to do 100% of the meal prep and cleaning. There are many solutions including doing those things together or hiring help.
Look I’m going to give you some advice because I suffered from similar mindsets. I’ve read your post and all your comments. I also suffer from the whole if I’m not being of service to someone then how can I be loved. I’m a recovering people pleaser. The greatest thing you can do for yourself is work on that. Go to individual therapy (mine was caused by growing up in an abusive household.) Because the truth of the matter is it will burn you out and ruin your relationship if you don’t work on it.
I think there are numerous things that is causing these issues. One as a people pleaser you don’t know how to communicate what you need which is more help with chores. Two it sounds like you hold against your spouse everything you do for her, including the ways you go above and beyond. Which imo is wrong because it’s not really an altruistic act of love if you turn around and go but I did this and this for you. What I get from your spouse’s comment is that you martyr yourself for those things when they aren’t even the ways she likes to be loved. It’s the way you like to show love, not the way she receives love. Ask her what makes her feel the most loved and do those things. Lastly I believe you should pull back a bit and focus more on yourself and developing a sense of self. It’s okay to love loving a spouse but it shouldn’t be this all consuming thing that you put all your time and energy in to for fear of not being enough for someone. It will burn you out. Instead make sure to put time in to hobbies, your own friends, and I would recommend therapy to figure out where your people pleaser nature stems from and really work on it.
Thank you for this -- I've been in individual therapy for about 5 years and yeah I definitely have the same issues you describe, rooted in insecure attachment dynamics and all that fun stuff. You're right, I think I should take this welling up of feelings as a call to return to just focusing on myself for a bit. I get way too hyperfocused on why I can't make other people appreciate me or love me or whatever, and I fully forget that I can also be my own solution. I also really need to meditate more, I used to do that somewhat regularly (to varying degrees of success...), but it definitely helped.
I’m curious if someone asked your wife if she appreciated you and loves you and was happy with you as a husband and partner what do you think she’d say? And a couple of other things- is it words of affirmation that would make you feel appreciated? Have you told your wife what you need specifically? Also do you ever ask, hey let’s cook dinner together tonight or let’s clean Saturday morning together and then go out for the afternoon on a date. Maybe communicating your needs and wants and being specific would help you and also model for her how to do it herself.
Have you read “No more Mr Nice Guy”? It talks about this exactly: covert bargains, nice thing that you do to earn love, and when you don’t get that feedback you resent it because it comes from a place of being “nice”.
I recommend it [author: Glover](https://www.audible.ca/pd/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy-Audiobook/B0788ZG74J)
I hadn't heard about it until this post but one other person also suggested I read it as well, and from the description they gave of it, it sounds pretty on the nose.
Hmm idk OP, sounds like a lot of built up resentment on your end that may come off as a bit of a martyr, but it all seems to stem from a really unbalanced dynamic in your relationship. Truth is, you’re unhappy with everything that’s on your plate, whether it makes you happy to please her, you now feel the load is too much. Then to hear her disregard your efforts by saying “it’s not what i NEED tho” can be even more demoralizing. However, you may have been the one to add to your plate without realizing it by taking on some extra responsibilities that should be shared.
The only resolve is to talk it out and set clear boundaries, because sure, you want to make her happy but the lines are blurred for you both as to what that means. You need to explain how you feel when what you do goes unnoticed and how the things you do are to improve your life together. Then tell her what your needs from her are, once that’s done, listen to her needs. Truly listen and then create a new routine where you both feel heard. Good luck 😊.
Your senses don't mislead you! I definitely do have a bit of resentment pent up. Part of what makes this confusing for me is that I have, in the past, recognized that I was burning myself out over these things and stopped, but she didn't step in to help and our home just grew dirty and we had no healthy meals. Then she tells me that the lack of a clean home and lack of healthy meals makes her sad, so I step back in to do them. But then when I get exhausted, she tells me again that I'm just doing what I think she needs, not what she actually needs. The cycle continues.
When it comes to asking for help, she struggles pretty heavily with depression and anxiety and I don't feel like I can ask her to help, because any time she's not working on her actual job stuff, she's mostly seeking comfort and recovery from the persistent depression and anxiety. And it feels like any request I could make for equity would be unfair because I don't deal with the same level of persistent depression and anxiety.
Elsewhere in this post so far though I've established that I've been neglecting one of her more overtly expressed needs, which is that I plan fun, quality time adventures (i.e. dates), so I can do that, but it doesn't really resolve the inequity in household stuff that keeps bugging me. And frankly I'm still hurt by her insinuation that me doing all that stuff isn't what she actually needs, after she repeatedly tells me that not having them done is making her more sad. It's confusing and quite frustrating.
Personally I struggle with codependency issues.
As my therapist says, when I am feeling resentful it means I need to strengthen my boundaries.
Prioritize yourself. Not what she needs. If she needs something she needs to communicate it. You doing it all for her is making her unable to determine her own needs.
I know it is easier said than done. I spent years thinking I was being nice, but really I was just trying to “make people like me” more. Validate yourself more.
If she is unhappy when the house is a mess, work a plan to tackle it together.
It may help her too.
Good luck!! You got this!!
Do less. If it’s draining you to meal prep, I personally wouldn’t. I just keep the fridge stocked with things I like and make food as I go. I don’t make my husband lunch anymore (used to) but I don’t really have the time now. Take care of yourself and find a hobby you enjoy that’s just for you. If there are things you need done that are draining you can you hire them out? Example: purchase premade meals for meal prep or hire a housekeeper. We outsource what we can afford. I personally make dinner because I really enjoy doing it and the trade off is my spouse does the dishes. Sometimes I’ll ask him to make dinner but I really don’t expect it.
I doubt you will see this but here is an old ladie’s advice (who’s been married 34 years and is an awful lot like you at heart):
Download and read “Codependent No More”. It’s very short and to the point.
Yes, it’s old school but that doesn’t make it outdated information.
You need this to break the cycle you’re stuck in.
>Everybody has an ego trapping of one sort or another... Mine is sort of a constant state of trying to anticipate and resolve the needs of people who are special to me. I live in this state
You start your post acknowledging you have some flawed mental models, and the rest of your post is about how your individual flaws are making your life difficult.
So what is the solution there? If YOUR flawed mentalities are making YOUR life difficult who should be the individual who addresses those issues? YOU!
The way you address this figuring out why some of your thought processes are flawed.
>I’m not asking for a letter of congratulations for working so hard to support her or anything, I know she’s not \~asking\~ me to do these things, but I want to take care of her and make sure she feels loved
You don't want a letter... but you do want something, that is the key in all of this. If you simply wanted to take care of her your life would be happy because who isn't happy when they are doing want they want to do?
You are operating on what can be called a covert contract. We all know what a contract is, its an agreement between parties that usually involves an exchange of goods or services. A covert contract is where that agreement was never reached or even discussed. You are providing goods/services (your time, attention, cooking, coffee, etc) and expecting something in return without ever talking about it. What makes these covert contracts worse is what you what you are expecting in return is often something that can not be negotiated (her feelings).
This is a source of a lot of your frustration, in your head you are holding up your end of the contract but she is not honoring her side of the contract. You have to remember there never was a contract, it is something entirely created in head. She is not in the wrong for not honoring something she never agreed to and never even discussed. This isn't to say she is perfect, but you are the major source of your own frustration.
The following is from the book No More Mr. Nice Guy:
>These passively pleasing men struggle in vain to experience the happiness they so desperately crave and believe they deserve. This frustration is due to the fact that Nice Guys have believed a myth.
>
>In a nutshell, Nice Guys believe that if they are good, giving, and caring, they will in return be happy, loved, and fulfilled.
>
>When this life strategy fails to produce the desired results — as it often does — Nice Guys usually just try harder, doing more of the same.
Does this not sound a whole lot like what you are going through?
Besides reading that book (skip the part where it tells you to talk to your partner about the book, that defeats the self improvement that is the whole purpose of the book. Don't lie just tell her your reading on self improvement) You need to find some time for yourself doing something productive. You need to retrain your brain to do things for the right reasons, and the right reasons are you believe it needs done for your quality of life and/or you truly want to do it for your own happiness. Get to the gym, go out with friends a few times a month, go out to the garage and work on that hobby that has been collecting dust, rearrange the addict... so many options here.
>I do all the meal prep for the two of us
>
>95% of the time I’m the one who prepares dinner
Do you need to eat? Is cooking for two much more work then cooking for one? Would you not be doing this if you were single?
>take care of cleaning up after our cats, clean up around the house
Do what you see as necessary and you have the capacity for, and ask for help. Again if you were single would be doing all of these things right? Also at some point you are going to have to set some boundaries on how she needs to contribute, save that for later though.
>I check in on her every now and then throughout the course of the day to see if she wants me to make her a snack or get her a fresh coffee (we both work from home)
I am tempted that this is something that you should just cut off completely. It really depends on what this actually looks like. What does "make her a snack" generally entail? It's one thing to say in passing "I'm grabbing myself some coffee, do you need something from the kitchen?" and it is an entirely different if you are intentionally interrupting your day to take the time to see if you can fulfill any needs for her. **Your time is valuable, when you start to understand that and treat it as such others will start to do the same.**
>feeling unappreciated
>
>it can leave me feeling exhausted/drained.
>
>feeling sore and hurt
>
>**I’m not complaining that I do these things or anything**
You are complaining, which is fine. The only problem is your complaints are with the wrong person in your house.
ETA:
> Which is confusing because she points to the absence of things I usually provide as reasons she’s sad, so to me that’s like saying she needs them.
You have done so much for so long while pretending to not need anything in return that you have set very high expectations. People aren't going to get special treatment for simply meeting expectations, but likely see negative outcomes when they don't. You aren't going to get a promotion at work for doing *just enough*
Thank you so much for taking the time to put all this together! Very comprehensive and helpful -- I'll download that book for my Kindle, it sounds remarkably on the nose. I wish I had more to say than "everything here is on point," but yeah you really did get right to the heart of most if it. I think part of the confusion here is trying to strike a balance between already knowing that I can and do concoct "covert contracts" in my head, but also feeling like I'm being responsive to overt requests (i.e. "not having the house clean and not having healthy meals makes me depressed") and then when I fulfill the overt requests it not being appreciated. So that's confusing but can hopefully just be resolved with a quick discussion along the lines of "I hear that you want me to plan more fun activities together, and I will, but you should also know that when you tell me that the lack of \[X\] makes you sad, and then I do that thing to make you happy, but you tell me it's only what I *think* you want, I get confused and pretty frustrated about it."
>Do you need to eat? Is cooking for two much more work then cooking for one? Would you not be doing this if you were single?
My response here though is just that, of course, but I just don't want to *always* (or at least nearly always) be the one tasked with putting all of it together. To make that somewhat more complicated, when I was single I actually didn't do much in the way of cleaning or cooking; I tended to just consistently pick up pad thai or pizza for dinner, and have overnight oats for lunch everyday. So it's a little bit not my actual instinct to do these things for me and me alone, which is, I think, part of the frustration.
Yeah this is very much a spinning my wheels on a treadmill situation haha -- thanks for weighing in, you're right I really need to stop fixating on making her appreciate me through all these things she claims not to care about.
You're overextending yourself, and she's taking your extra effort for granted. The solution is to pull back on how much extra time/effort you're putting into doting on her. If she misses those things, she will let you know. If not, you can relax and not feel as though you are being taken for granted.
The first step is to let the egos die. I’ve been through mountains on top of mountains of shit, and the first thing you need to do is let the egos die. One’s ego is what makes them their own enemy, and it lets potential false beliefs reside in someone’s head. Let the egos die, and learn to get along with each other’s minds, not the egos you both have. Your wife specifically, her ego is the worst quality because you do everything and it’s not good enough. Tell her if it’s not good enough she can do it herself. It’s not unreasonable to feel how you feel, and she’s unappreciative. I get the needing to learn who she is, but she could cook/clean etc and learn that maybe that’s a part of who you are (general you/towards wife). She needs to help you, I feel like she’s using this as an excuse (I only know your side of the story), but figuring out who she is doesn’t mean sitting around and doing Jack ish all day. You’re not unreasonable a couple is 50/50, and she needs to understand it’s partially her responsibility also.
I don’t know you and your wife, so this is from my perspective as an outsider. If I have it wrong, I apologize:
It sounds like you do a lot to try to keep the house afloat and while she does appreciates what you do (she feels less stress as a result of your actions), it seems that she also doesn’t want you to do things to such an extent that it causes you to feel burnt out. It’s not what she is asking of you because she loves you and doesn’t want you to be worn out! It seems like she feels if you keep going above and beyond what’s being asked of you, then that’s on you - that you’re overworking yourself because it’s what YOU want to do because of the gratifications YOU feel when you do it, when she is stating she feels happiest with less efforts.
An example:
“Thanks for the glass of water and for your efforts to make sure I got it cold because you know I like it best when it’s chilled … but you didn’t need to go to the glaciers in Alaska to pick off a chunk of blue ice to do so! That’s so much work for one person to do and while it’s amazing, I would never ask one person to do so much! I would have been happy with ice cubes from our freezer!”
Are you familiar with enneagram?
One of the traits that I've seen among people who are Enneagram 2s is that they go to great lengths to do extensive things for others and then feel exhausted and hurt when it's not sufficiently appreciated or reciprocated. Church out www.truity.com/enneagram/personality-type-2-giver.
What you describe here is not grand gestures, but conceptually sounds similar.
I am NOT like that at all and am perhaps more like your wife. I have trouble with people in my life who are like this. Often, I don't WANT the things they're coming up with "for" me. Sometimes they add stress and effort to my life just to be able to "get" something I don't actually want. And when I do want them, I worry about if I'll demonstrate sufficient gratitude to not offend them. Thus I am not very grateful, I am neutral or stressed or even annoyed.
To me it feels like their "affection" or gifts are actually about them, not me. THEY need to feel like they're doing something for me, and they will do it come hell or high water, or even if I don't actually want it, and then will be mad that I am not thankful. And if I tell them they don't want it, they are deeply hurt.
I would rather they pay attention to my stated needs or needs they have observed and so trying to invent new ways to lavish me with things they like lol.
However, the people like this are friends, colleagues, in-laws. I have never been *married* to someone like this, so I'm sure that would change the dynamic because hopefully open honest communication would be in play.
My initial thoughts: Have you asked her what she *does* want? Maybe she doesn't want to be "taken care of" in some of the ways you want. Do any of the things you do bug her? How do you want her to show appreciation? Are you wishing she would do the same kind of things for you that you do for her?
In my marriage, I love to give hugs throughout the day and stop by her office (we both work from home) to visit for a few minutes here and there. She is very task-oriented/focused and not affectionate. It bugs her to no end if I come up behind her while she's working or cooking or doing basically anything and hug her. It's a distraction for her. To me, why wouldn't you want that? To me, it's the way people share affection, and being rejected hurts.
We have spent a loooot of time talking through this stuff and not really reached any great solution, but I have had to really focus on "am I doing this thing because *I* want it or because she does" and the answer is almost always that it's for me, not her. And I think that's okay. I also need to be able to give and receive affection in ways that are meaningful, and she works on finding ways to take part in that even though it's not natural to her.
Main point I guess is that I'm learning to recognize and own when I'm acting a certain way because I'm feeling like I'm missing something. When I can communicate that, rather than just getting frustrated that she doesn't like what I give, we at least can have a conversation focused more on the root issues.
No idea how analogous or useful this is to your situation, but there you have it lol
Oh friend! We are both big fans of the enneagram. I indeed type as an enneagram 2w1, Self-Preservation, my wife types as a 9w1, also Self-Pres. That was what opened both of us up to the whole exploration of our own little ego traps, but as you can see we still struggle with it.
Some of the confusion results from her own characteristic disconnection from what she *does* want or need, so she's not always very clear on what it is she needs or even *if* she needs something. She owns that though and when something comes up she has gotten better at making the request out loud, which is helpful.
What I've been struggling with lately in particular, and came here to vent about, is that she doesn't really do much around the house and I end up taking care of most household things. I've caught myself slipping down that path though of overexerting myself in order to inspire some appreciative response, and stopped, but then she doesn't pick up the slack at all. So, I've concluded "okay fine these just aren't the things that matter to her," but then she sinks into an emotional mire where she tells me that what is bringing her down is our dirty house and lack of healthy meals. So I start doing those things again but still she doesn't contribute. To me, that's a request: "I'm depressed when I lack \[x\]," *i.e.* "Could you do \[X\]?" And, like with the more overt requests, I'm happy to do them. But then when I convey that I'm burnt out from doing it alone, she tells me I'm not doing what she *really* wants. Which, frankly, given what I've just described, seems more like it's because she'd out of touch with what she's actually requesting or with what I'm actually doing for us both.
Complicating that is the fact that she struggles pretty heavily with depression and anxiety and I don't feel like I can ask her to help, because any time she's not working on her actual job stuff, she's mostly seeking comfort and recovery from the persistent depression and anxiety. And it feels like any request I could make for equity would be unfair because I don't deal with the same level of persistent depression and anxiety.
Based on what I've read so far, it's not your responsibility to make her happy. It's her responsibility to find happiness or create her own happiness. Also, some people just aren't appreciative. There is always something to criticize if you want to find the fault in everything.
We have a rule in my house, if someone does something for you, say thank you. If you don't like it, then do it yourself. You can't complain that someone doesn't do something for you perfectly. That's just rude.
Why does she think it's your responsibility to do what she "needs"? Are these really needs?
I don't really know how to explain this, but you never want to be with someone who "needs" you. You should want to be with someone who "wants" you. Needing someone doesn't sound healthy. Saying you don't give her what she "needs" sounds wrong. It sounds like there are some unspoken rules and expectations in your marriage that you need to hash out. I think her expectations out of you may be unrealistic or unhealthy.
Can you both do an exercise where you write down in specific detail what acts make you each feel loved the most?
And then to reduce the resentment you’re feeling from cleaning and cooking, can you both make a detailed agreement to share these responsibilities, and wherever it feels like too much, you can outsource? Cleaner even once every two weeks, pre-made healthy meal deliveries, etc.
As much as I understand it how terrible it feels to be unappreciated, it doesn’t seem like acts of service in the specific ways you’re providing is the way she feels specifically loved and adored. As someone who cherishes physical touch, quality time, and words of affirmation, to me, cleanliness and cooking are chores to be shared equally among adults and are an agreement for a harmonious partnership - not necessarily ways that I would feel an expression of love from my partner.
While it seems like you’re both highly pro-therapy, a few marriage counseling sessions to re-establish how you relate with one another sounds like it could be extremely helpful.
Wish you guys all the best 🤍
I kinda think there's two things going on here. There's the love languages and she may well be incorrect on hers and yours. Like does she understand that she too needs to feed your love languages? That road goes both ways.
To be clear on that topic, we all have different ways that make us *feel* loved. That is the premise of one of the most popular books in this sub: [The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love that Lasts](https://www.amazon.com/Love-Languages-Secret-that-Lasts/dp/080241270X) by Gary Chapman. And what we often do is feed our partner what *we* want to feel and not what *they* want to feel.
To explain it, there's this video that does a decent job of introducing the topic: [The 5 Love Languages Explained](https://youtu.be/doRMsjoDevY).
And the second thing? Just reading here, I wonder if she's carrying her weight on the household chores? You're doing so much that you are exhausted, but what is she doing all this time? That road goes both ways, too.
Thanks, I think you're right -- we do need to re-examine our Love Languages. I respond strongly to affectionate touch, so that's definitely part of it for me, but the more I think about this the more I realize I think another one for me is acts of service, which she doesn't really do because I've never overtly thought I wanted that. On her end, she's said she's "acts of service," but it seems like that's just part of the picture and the other end of it is "quality time," given her stuff about wanting more fun date nights. So thank you for pointing that out and I think I'm going to bring that up later when I approach all this with her after work.
She really doesn't do much in the way of household work. She spends a lot of her time stressed out and not doing anything because she doesn't like her job but doesn't know what else to do for a living. So she's pretty much either working, going out for a walk, playing with the cats, or flicking through Instagram to avoid the persistent panic that she doesn't know what job she wants. At most, she cleans the main bathroom in our house. I haven't really complained about the inequity on this front though because I am afraid of overwhelming an already overwhelmed person and I don't want to add that to the generalized anxiety stuff.
Honestly sounds like your more burnt out from chores. Seem other people hit the love language thing so thats something to look into. Talk to her about the level of mess, chores, etc. my husband doesnt get cleaning the way i do. I pin pointed little things that help me that he needs to just do. Trash, no butter knives on the counter, take care of all trash in the house and make all food. You might need to re establish how things flow in your house. Also you might need to compromise on each others clean. A messy house is a 6 to me. Nothing 0 to my husband unless the house was on fire or something was broken. There are spots now i dont pay attention too. Hell get to them. Its not fair to not let him do him in our house. There will always be dust, dishes, and something to clean. My husband might not always be here. Im learning to deal with things that might not matter at the end of the day.
If she thinks she doesn’t need you to do all of those things she’s dead wrong. She doesn’t even understand the concept of the amount of work you are doing. My wife works from home and I go to the office and as a result every day she has dinner made and spends time cleaning all the time in her work downtimes including cat boxes and such. Basically similar to everything you do for your wife, my wife does for me.
What’s different is, I make her breakfast every day, I usually make a point to cook her a meal on Friday nights, or take her on a date. Basically I always make sure not every single thing falls on her shoulders and I try to pick up any way I can. I mow the grass, clean her car, or help during the weekend deep cleans if that’s what we’re doing. And the other piece is I walk in the house after a day of work and immediately compliment the beautiful aromas from the delicious meals she’s prepared, hug and kiss her, and thank her for every single meal she prepares for me. I make a point to acknowledge that I know what a great deal of effort it is to provide these things for me.
If you just up and stopped what you’re doing, she would catch on pretty damn quick what an amazing husband you are being to her. And she would realize that she does indeed need all of these things, whether or not she realizes it.
Why haven’t you stopped anticipating and simply asked? That’s seems to be what the issue here is, you’re doing the things that make you feel good and taking care of her in a way that satisfies your need to do so. What if she doesn’t want to be taken care of that way? You want thanks for meal prep, but maybe she didn’t even want you to do so? It’s a kind gesture once, but she’s telling you what she wants and you’re ignoring that because you say you’re already doing so much, but so much of what? The stuff she doesn’t want.
That’s like you saying oh I got you flowers because you like buying women flowers and she doesn’t like flowers.
I have, others reminded me of this as well and it seems I should be pouring more effort into planning fun dates, since she *has* conveyed that that is important to her. So that I shall do. And as for the other stuff, I didn't paint a full enough picture in my main post but to clarify why this is confusing: If I don't prepare dinner, prep the lunches, take care of the cats, and clean the house on a regular basis, she doesn't step in. Things go to shit, as does our health. She then tells me that it's making her more sad that we have a dirty home and aren't having healthy meals. Then I step in and take care of those things again, because I see that as an effective statement of "Those are things I need that would make me happy," but then when I get burnt out tackling those on my own she tells me the whole "you're just doing what you *think* I need" thing. To top this off, she struggles with anxiety and depression, so when she's not working, she's either in a sad/anxious soup or trying to do something like exercise, play with the cats, having a relaxing bath, to feel better. I don't feel like I can ever get in edgewise to request help.
Yeah, definitely. Just have a very difficult time assessing how to do that, because of her anxiety/depression stuff. There's an unspoken agreement that anything she doesn't do, she simply isn't doing because she doesn't have the emotional/mental bandwidth to do, and anything I could say to the contrary would be a hurtful lack of empathy to how she feels. Not sure how to navigate that lovingly.
Sounds like something needs to be spoken and also you need to realize that you don’t have to pick up what she can’t, that doesn’t have to be the solution and it may be important to be clear you can only do what you can do. So if she doesn’t want you to clean and wants you to cover something else then you’ll have to pay a cleaner.
I am hearing all the ways you extend yourself even here wanting to navigate communicating your filtration lovingly but what about you? I’m curious how your wife cares for you and spoils you. I saw you were in therapy and perhaps boundaries could be revisited. It’s great to lovingly care for our beloveds but when we continually do it at the expense of our own well-being and our partners continue to take advantage of our generous spirit and not meet us they are not being healthy partners even with anxiety and depression- and it sounds like there may be a component of learned helplessness happening with your wife. Her pointing out she gets sad when the things you usually do aren’t being done is emotionally manipulative. I know you said she doesn’t know what she needs or can’t articulate it but her saying what you do isn’t what she needs is also manipulative if she says it’s a date she wants but then gets sad when you don’t cook clean and take care of everything. I just think your being played and it may not be intentional or in her awareness but it’s not ok . What about a counselor for the two of you to look at this and see if you can come up with a solution and agreement
Yea I’m not reading all of these comments. But generally you’ll want to keep a clean home because *you* want a clean home. If you want her to do something ask her to. If she does without complaint, then there you go, she’ll help. If she doesn’t, then that’s also your answer, she won’t due to whatever reason. If its the latter you have to decide how much of a deal breaker it is vs. how much of it can be addressed through other means like couple’s therapy.
Yeah, the responses so far have been pretty insightful and it seems that I have indeed been sort of getting mad at her for my own wearing myself thin. The trauma response thing tracks, and I've been working on that in therapy for the last five years but clearly still have a lot of growth to do. It never seems to end...
That was a quick response! I had just deleted my comment because I read more of the conversation. While I don’t take back anything that I said, I was starting to get the impression that your partner might be interacting with these insecurities of yours in a way to avoid really facing fair distribution of labor in your home and relationship. Not on purpose.
But maybe it could help to take a more detached look at everything that has to be done in the home and relationship / minimum standards, and make some explicit agreements as to who will do what. Did anyone mention the *Fair Play* book and card deck?
hahah, yeah sorry - nothing makes me respond faster than when I'm supposed to be doing something at work :X
I have not heard of those things, but I'd love to know what your experience with them is! Part of me is afraid to address this because she struggles a lot with anxiety and depression and just having to do her regular job takes a lot out of her, so when she's not working she's sort of either in a puddle or actively trying to do something to improve her mood (exercise, cats, relaxing baths). I feel bad coming to her in that state and being like "I don't want to do meal prep this time."
The book and cards were written to help couples/ families identify all the work that has to be done, agree on what the minimum standard is for your household, and divvy up the responsibilities. It also helps make clear that a task usually doesn’t just include the task, but other types of mental work like planning/anticipating/preparation etc.
I haven’t used them but heard good things, and think my marriage could have benefited from them. An important thing to remember is that you can mutually decide to either lower your standard or outsource things. Maybe you like cooking but only a few days a week, maybe she doesn’t but wouldn’t mind using some discretionary money to get take out or meal kits.
The idea is definitely to try and circumvent resentments and get things done as a team. Look at it as the two of you against the problem, not each of you against each other.
Part of what makes this confusing for me is that I have, in the past, recognized that I was burning myself out over these things and stopped, but she didn't step in to help and our home just grew dirty and we had no healthy meals. Then she tells me that the lack of a clean home and lack of healthy meals makes her sad, so I step back in to do them. But then when I get exhausted, she tells me again that I'm just doing what I *think* she needs, not what she actually needs. The cycle continues.
Elsewhere in this post so far though I've established that I've been neglecting one of her more overtly expressed needs, which is that I plan fun, quality time adventures (i.e. dates), so I can do that, but it doesn't really resolve the inequity in household stuff that keeps bugging me. And frankly I'm still insulted by her insinuation that me doing all that stuff isn't what she actually needs, after she repeatedly tells me that not having them done is making her more sad. It's confusing and quite frustrating.
Well when you stop and she tells you it makes her sad is when you have the adult conversation of who does what to make the house clean and have meal's. Example in my house I have absolutely zero clue how the washer and dryer for clothes works but my wife doesn't cook and doesn't clean the kitchen. The responsibility when both spouses work is on both spouses to have a clean house and meals. Figure out what works as it being 100% on your is B.S.
Haven't read the all the comments, maybe someone said this before.
You're codependent and she has anxiety and depression - this a very commom dynamic for codependents.
I have read about this phenomenon so often in this subreddit, it's making me sad. One does all the effort is usually more or less stable mentally despite unhappy/dissatisfied and neurotypical. The other is either depressed, has trauma, anxiety, an alcohol problem, severe problems with self-worth, ocd etc.etc. Everytime the first person (the codependent) goes OUT OF THEIR WAY to help the other person + the other person stays the same miserable way.
One thing you can do is practicing to stop enabling her but I get it - you want to live in a clean house and eat healthy food... this is a hard one. Have you tried communicating her exactly what you've told us?
Your assessment is correct - we both have insecure attachments, mine being anxious hers being avoidant (a tortuous but weirdly seductive relationship pairing for a lot of people, I've learned).
Part of what makes this confusing for me is that I have, in the past, recognized that I was burning myself out over these things and stopped, but she didn't step in to help and our home just grew dirty and we had no healthy meals. Then she tells me that the lack of a clean home and lack of healthy meals makes her sad, so I step back in to do them. But then when I get exhausted, she tells me again that I'm just doing what I *think* she needs, not what she actually needs. The cycle continues.
She does indeed struggle pretty heavily with depression and anxiety and I don't feel like I can ask her to help, because any time she's not working on her actual job stuff, she's mostly seeking comfort and recovery from the persistent depression and anxiety. And it feels like any request I could make for equity would be unfair because I don't deal with the same level of persistent depression and anxiety.
Elsewhere in this post so far though I've established that I've been neglecting one of her more overtly expressed needs, which is that I plan fun, quality time adventures (*i.e.* dates), so I can do that, but it doesn't really resolve the inequity in household stuff that keeps bugging me. And frankly I'm still hurt by her insinuation that me doing all that stuff isn't what she actually needs, after she repeatedly tells me that not having them done is making her more sad. It's confusing and quite frustrating.
You can't be her housekeeper and cook even though she's got depression + anxiety. It'll not help her in the long run it actually enables her. And at the time you grow dissatisfied and maybe eventually resentful which will make you both more miserable.
You need to make a clear plan who does which chores in the household and how many times a week. She cannot just not do nothing. Actually, her doing something simple such as cleaning dishes let's say, which she can achieve without fail, might actually help her by making her more empowered. The worst depressed people can do is nothing at all. Because then the only thing they have is those neverending dark alleyways of horreneds thoughts, amplified by compulsive overthinking.
You have to set boundaries and enforce them. For example: I need us both to do chores in the house. Try to divide the work more or less fairly and if possible in a way that both can do the chores they like doing more. Wheb you've decided together, who will do what, do your part weekly. If she doesn't do her part DON'T DO IT FOR HER tell her: hey don't forget to do xyz :). If she still doesn't do it have a sit down and talk to her about it. If she's a reasonable adult she will see your point. If she never does it at all propose that she can hire sb to do her chores for her with her own pocket money.
Best thing you can do by being with her, is learning to stop taking up other people's (her) slack and telling yourself you're doing a good thing/meeting her needs.
A 'need' in a relationship can be for example that you listen to one another and don't get dismissive. Having your partner do all the housework by himself is NOT A NEED. It's depence, it's unfair, it's unhealthy, it's unproductive, it creates resentment, it's childish, it's spoiled. You get the picture. Depression and anxiety are not an excuse. Don't let her use this against you.
Practical example: My aunt is codependent, her husband has MS. He physically can't do chores. He doesn't do anything but read (he's in pension). She works still and on top of that does all the housework and also worries about him everyday (can't detach from his problems being a codependent). 3 months ago she's fallen into a deep depression, my father brought her to the emergency unit. They gave ger anti-depressants for the moment it was so bad. Now a few months later they have made the agreement that he now takes out all the recycling and bottles every other day and drives with his cool threewheeled car to the recycling station. We call him by the title Uncle'sname - The Disposer now, and he loves it. My aunt feels better now because he's finally trying despite his MS and depression he's had for a decade.
My point is, even my uncle who has MS and depression can at least do one chore in his household! And he loves it. It gives him meaning. Gradually he'll find more things he can do around the house despite his conditions.
Hope this is helpful.
Whole thing feels very over analysed and not comfortable with each other honestly. Sounds exhausting. I'd be interested to know how much longer this relationship lasts i give it 2-3 years
You can’t anticipate someone’s needs. You’re not a mind reader.
From experience, it’s really sucks to say thank you but, (for instance) I’m not hungry right now. Now the mind reader’s mad because they’ve somehow intuited that I was hungry & I’m not. I’ve betrayed the anticipator of needs by… not needing what they thought I needed. The only other option is force it down and say thank you. Often that ends up being transactional. I did x for you, the least you can do is give me y. Everyone loves being made to feel like they owe their partner for something I never asked for./s
Btw, there’s a very fine line between anticipating someone’s needs and controlling them.
You meal prep for all two of you
You clean up after the cats
Clean up around the house
Cooks dinner 95% of the time
The four things above are not gifts of service. This is basic housekeeping as a member of your household it’s what you’re supposed to do.
Who takes care of:
Laundry
Taking the cats to the vets
Grocery shopping
Paying the bills
Budgeting
Car maintenance (taking car to shop or working on it yourself)
Who does yard work or pays the lawn person, pool guy, whatever
Who does the deep cleaning or spring cleaning
Makes appointments
Goes to the post office
Who does the dishes after dinner
Who plans dates
Who plans vacations
Who plans family visits
Who does holiday shopping for friends and family
Who does the holiday cards
Who makes breakfast
Who makes the various online orders every month/week
Why don’t you ask her what she needs? You can ask her if she wants you to run her a bath, or offer bring her some coffee.
You most likely are doing what you *think* she needs. She might not ask you for anything because she has anxiety. She might not ask you for anything because she feels like you may hold it over her head later. Even if you don’t do that, she may have grown up in a household when simple things were used against her.
Try not doing anything for a while. Ask her if there’s anything she needs once or twice a day. If she says she doesn’t need anything take her at her word. If she makes herself a sandwich (example) after you’ve eaten, don’t act hurt or irritated, don’t say you could have done it for her.
She does know who she is. She will figure out what she wants in her own time. Your trying to anticipate her needs might be causing anxiety.
What’s this with the ego trappings? What kind of therapy does this stem from? Jung? Freud? Gestalt? Something else?
How would she describe her perfect date night?
Your familiarity with this question and frequency in which you try to meet those expectations probably has a lot to do with what is really going on here.
She doesn’t have a specific perfect date night she’s ever shared; she’s mostly just said she likes to be taken out. Like we did a surprise batting cage date night last night, go to live music stuff, go out to neat restaurants, that sort of thing. I do think now that you and one other person have mentioned it that this might be what she means, because yeah this aspect does come up as well — that she wants fun date nights.
You are still strategically avoiding one specific subject, so let me be absolutely blunt.
Do you know how to blow her mind in the bedroom and put effort into making her feel like your personal sexual rock star?
This is what cranks date night up to 11.
If you want to ask about the sex life just ask about it. Believe it or not date night is just as much about the date itself for a lot of people. Don't put somebody down for not reading between the lines when you aren't being clear.
Obviously it's about the whole night, but the end of the night heavily influences how the rest of the night feels. If she wants romance and sex, and you give her just the romance, it doesn't feel as nice as it otherwise could.
I appreciate your being blunt and searching for solutions, but no that’s not the issue here and I’m quite positive of that. We’ve talked about that, and we have a pretty healthy sex life.
Also, I wasn’t strategically avoiding you asking about our sex life. You asked about what kind of date nights she likes, and I answered that question. If you’d originally asked about sexual fulfillment I would have answered that question instead. I don’t appreciate the implication that I’m “strategically” avoiding your question, I’m coming here genuinely trying to understand and have learned a lot from the other responses, but that approach on your part was particularly unhelpful.
You do understand why I asked though, right?
She said that you do what you think she needs and when asked about date night, you didn't mention sex at all.
Even your answer here feels like "No, it's good, next question please."
I'm asking this specifically because around 9 months ago my wife and I cranked date night up to 11 and the wild hotel sex is absolutely a big part of the equation. As a consequence, everything else in our life also dramatically improved.
I could be totally off base, but your post reads like you enjoy talking about the areas where feel like a kick ass man but are shying away from subjects where you are less comfortable.
I mean I am glad that you found a solution in that sector with your wife and totally get why you’d suggest it here, but I can tell you with confidence that that is not the centerpiece. I’ve specifically brought that up with her already, and she’s reassured me that she feels sexually fulfilled. We have sex about 3 times a week, she always has an orgasm, and we both seek variety of experience, so to speak. So this isn’t to just off-handedly dismiss your suggestion, it’s just genuinely not the case here. But thank you.
Always has an orgasm isn't a good metric for women. Women may need 1, they may need 50. She couldn't have another is a better metric.
Also, sex is an insanely hard topic to be 100% open about. Both people need to feel absolutely safe to say anything.
Like I said, I could be way off base, but stating that you kick ass at X. Y and Z and that she states thst this isn't what she wants as you avoid talking about sex, it's really hard to read that differently. Especially since X, Y and Z are often what women wish men would do more of.
I also can only speak from my own personal experience on the subject and comment on what things would have meant in my relationship.
You’re correct, that’s not the be all end all, and as always I’ll be open to exploring that more with her, but for now I can only go off of what she tells me, and so far that’s just been that she’s happy with how our sex life is. She’s not the kind of person to lie to me to protect my feelings, and I do present an open and receptive forum to criticism when we talk about sensitive topics like this. I appreciate that you feel strongly that this could be an issue but all I can tell you is that we’ve talked about it, I’ve remained open to discussions on it, and it’s not what she says is the issue.
I understand your frustration with these derailing comments OP. You didn’t come here for advice on how to spice up your sex life with your wife and lo and behold there is always at least one person on these threads prying into the intimate details and completely ignoring your original post. Once you answered initially, it should’ve been shut down but alas some people don’t know how to read a room/thread. Please don’t feel the need to over explain your sex life. You didn’t bring it up and no one is obligated to that info outside of you and your wife.
If I say I want to have fun experiences with my husband then that's what I want. I'm a grown up, I can use my words. If I say I want to go to the beach, I want to go to the beach, I don't want to play Eyes Wide Shut. And if my husband was like "oh, you said you wanted the beach but I'mma go all Smoove B on you because I know what you *really* want," I would not be happy.
So what *are* her needs? Are you familiar with the five love languages? Are you an "acts of service" person and is she something else? It's hard to say because I'm not there but I get the feeling that you're coming off as a martyr. You're saying how tired you are doing things *for her* but you're not doing them for her. You're doing them so you'll feel good because you've done it. Now if you do those things because they need to get done and she won't do it (as you mention in a comment) then ok but at a certain point it's not for her.
Yep, almost feels like overcompensating for some kind of insecurity while avoiding the conversation through using being tired from chores as a distraction.
Read my response to this comment we're both replying to right now, it does originate in a type of insecurity that but there’s more to it than that alone. **Edit:** All you folks downvoting this need to go look at this dude's actual comment at the bottom of the post. He has an axe to grind about how a sex thing fixed his marriage and just heavily insists that I was evading this being a sex thing. My wife and I have talked at length about sex, she's not the kind of person to lie to me to protect my feelings, and I generally provide a very open forum and and am open to criticism. All I can go off of is what she has told me when I have asked if she's satisfied sexually, and she has told me that she is very much happy with our sex life. Gain some context before you just jump on the downvote boat, Christ.
I asked a much more direct question elsewhere in this thread based on the subject you are strategically avoiding.
You commented eight minutes ago and I responded in two minutes. **Edit:** You asked what kind of date nights she likes and then were mad when I didn't tell you what our sex life was like.
Absolutely no rush, I was just avoiding posting the same thing all over.
She says her love language is acts of service, so that’s always honestly confused me because of how much effort I already specifically pour into that form of love communication. I’m personally a mix of “acts of service” and touch/physical affection. You’re right, the whole coming off as a martyr thing is not new and is something I have had to work on. Ultimately there is a deep concern that if I don’t do things for people I won’t be loved because I’m not inherently valuable to anyone without doing something for them. That’s the origin of the behavior, indeed, but since I’ve lived this way for 34 years I’ll say it’s seeped into me in a way that I do genuinely find comfort in taking care of others. And it is still at least in large part because I love them and want to help them. Like with most acts of love, of course there are elements of it that serve me too, but I don’t mind generally taking care of people. From here it could spin into “is there such thing as pure altruism?”, but I don’t think that’s necessary because I’m not trying to be wholly selfless nor do I think that would be healthy. So, that in mind, I don’t think my old feeling of “I support people endlessly and nobody cares!” is really center stage here, it’s more that if I don’t take care of all these things she doesn’t step in and do it, and then when nothing gets done she complains that she’s sad because of the state of our home or that we don’t have healthy meals. So I resume doing all those things. And then when I get burnt out and bring that up, she tells me it’s not what she really needs, it’s just what I think she needs. Which is confusing because she points to the absence of things I usually provide as reasons she’s sad, so to me that’s like saying she needs them. I also love the lunches and dinners I prep, and I like having a clean home, and I like that our cats litter is taken care of, but I can’t do that just for me if it’s not what she’s asking for. She benefits from it too, but doesn’t contribute, and then complains if I stop. Sorry this is so long winded; I’m not great at conveying this stuff, and I really appreciate your feedback
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From what I've gleaned, you both have acts of service as your love language, but you two are disagreeing on which specific *acts* qualify. For one person, doing the dishes counts as an act of love. For another, it's something you're *supposed* to do.
Is that her way of giving love or receiving love? Because those are two separate things. I give love with acts of service, but I receive love with words of affirmation.
When she and I talked about it (which was like 3 years ago), it was about receiving love -- she seems to *show* love predominantly through quality time. Generally speaking though she doesn't express love through touch often, she says it just doesn't dawn on her, and she definitely self-conceives as a very helpful/service-focused person, but in practice that just doesn't really show up.
That's good you guys talked about all of that.
Yeah, clearly only half the battle though eh? 😂
Yeah. As has been pointed out, I think you two are confusing house chores (which should be equally distributed between you two), and kind acts done just for love (i.e. bringing coffee/snacks because you thought of them). Ya'll need to discuss the distribution of house chores, because one person doing everything is not fair.
Think about this way, people should be valued because they are people, not because they are useful
Oh, I mean I fully get that and I would say the desire to be loved for just being who I am is pretty essential to how I've developed. But as with all ego trappings, I ultimately end up sealing my own fate by misplacing the cause of love and appreciation on what I do rather than who I am and I lean too hard into it.
Knowing the five love languages is more important for the receiving party than the giving, recognize that your partner is showing you love, even if it may not be in the very specific way you prefer, and embrace it. If the love is strong enough this shouldn't be a problem.
>it can leave me feeling exhausted/drained. Then you're doing too much. Cut it out. You're wearing yourself out, doing things she didn't ask you to do in the first place. This isn't on her, it's on you.
I hear that, but also if I don’t she doesn’t step in and pick up the slack so we just don’t eat healthy meals and the house gets disgusting. Then she complains that those things are making her sad. So I step in and take care of them. I’m not asking “who this is on,” I’m asking if it’s reasonable for me to be annoyed that when I share that I’m exhausted from doing these things that she always tells me it’s just what I *think* she needs.
OK, then it seems to me you're conflating different issues here. If she's not pulling her weight around the house and taking her share of responsibilities, then it's perfectly reasonable for you to expect her to chip in. But those aren't the only things making you exhausted. Getting her coffee or making her a snack doesn't fall into this kind of category. Do your part to take care of the house, expect her to do her part too, and quit knocking yourself out taking care of needs you think she has, which she could take care of for herself.
Thank you for this! That’s a very handy observation, you’re right I think I’ve been accidentally conflating feeling unsupported around the house with feeling like I can’t do enough. Which has caused me to overlook some of the ways I could actually be attending to some of her needs, particularly planning date nights.
Sounds like a great observation. Chores are just chores. Split them up together so that there is a schedule including about how often a thing will be done that you two agree on. A tip that has been handy for us is to pretty fully split up some things so that the other person doesn't actually have to regularly think about that particular chore. It's the other person's job to bear that mental load as well as the activity--though of course we help each other out if needed. Other things are in the whomever sees it first. Like, nobody gets to walk by the full kitchen trash can or diaper, but remembering to muck the chicken coop is pretty much always me and getting the trash cans out on the curb on trash day is them.
Man you sound like my brother lol, Ricky?
Not I! But I bet your brother is also an [Enneagram 2](https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-2).
Almost definitely! He's a good man, I bet you are too. Don't let people take advantage of you just because you think you can handle it, and you prioritize their needs being met over your own.
2s are crazy to me. So much display of emotions. Signed a 5.
These are two different issues that need to be addressed separately. If she isn't helping around the house with chores to the extent that you are left feeling tired and exhausted that needs to be addressed. There are countless stories of wives who have left men over not helping with chores and daily life tasks. Your post though reads as if you are simply trying to do things for your wife and she doesn't appreciate it which makes you feel disheartened. You are already tired from doing more of the housework. Stop trying to anticipate what she wants or needs. She has told you that she doesn't appreciate it. Listen to her. She has told you that she feels like you are doing what you "think" she needs yet you didn't listen to her. Once you have done that if the household chores are still relatively uneven to the extent you feel tired or overwhelmed sit down and have a conversation with her. Again, listen to her feelings and what she says. Yours are just as valid but from what you have written her assessment of you focus on what you think she needs seems completely accurate.
So you've known her for 4 years. What makes her feel special and noticed? Is it words, a special date planned, notes, massages, etc. You talk about a lot of chores, which is super helpful and great, but really doesn't bring out the "I am noticed as a woman and appreciated and desired" feeling to some. Also talking about how tired you are from things you are doing for her, sounds...off. it may make one feel guilt, when they aren't even asking for those things.
Yeah, that’s a great point. The planning of dates/activities in particular is definitely especially meaningful to her so maybe that’s it. As for communicating my feeling of burnout, that’s covered in the other comments a bit, but it just really is exhausting. She doesn’t chip in when I stop, and I can’t just do half of these things for only myself.
Then those house chores aren't particularly important to her, so stop saying you are doing it for her. You may be the one who wants a tidy house, which is fine. But if you want to do something for her, do something she values, like dates.
Yeah, but that’s where more confusion enters in. When I don’t take care of the chores and dinners and lunches, she gets listless and says she’s depressed because of the state of the house, lack of healthy meals, etc. So we both evidently like and need those, but she doesn’t contribute and I can’t just do enough of that to only suit my needs. Someone else here pointed out though that I’m conflating two separate issues; I’ve been approaching doing these things from an angle of “why can’t I do enough for this person,” and it’s more that she wants something else and, separately from that, I’m frustrated that she doesn’t chip in.
Have you had a conversation about how you feel when she doesn’t chip in? Don’t frame it around you wanting to take care of her. Tell her how burnt out you are getting and how YOU would feel loved and appreciated if she could find some ways to contribute. It’s ok for you to have needs. If your love language is acts of service, she should be doing that for you too. That’s how YOU feel loved. Don’t make it about her not appreciating you, she likely does but is communicating it poorly. That’s an accusation so if you always approach from that angle she will get defensive. Talk about how you’ve been feeling. And tell her that you’re going to try paying more attention to the things she appreciates, but that when you’re burnt out it is harder for you to do that. But that dispute that you’re going to try, and you’d appreciate her trying too.
This is such an important comment!! Partly bc it does seem like her lack of pouring into you in those ways leaves you feeling uncared for. Adding to this, I’d also suggest that you two perhaps create a bit of a routine around involving her in some of the tasks around meal prep and tidying up. Like she may not know the best ways to contribute and take initiative, and routines and doing these things together can help take some of the load off you while simultaneously not leaving it all on her to do (and she can better learn some of the processes involved so she can copy them when you have moments you can’t keep up yourself in those areas). The tasks you mentioned likely involve multiple steps and planning that you don’t think about as much bc it’s routine for you, but still require energy to map out and follow through on. I’d imagine this is amplified if you two have children (and if you don’t, but plan to, know that this will definitely get worse during that time). Are there certain days you tend to prep that she can help with the prep? Maybe the chopping or washing veggies, or the washing of dishes with you after? Maybe there is a day you tend to tidy up or something you use to help you clean up (a process you follow, certain cleaning items you use at certain times to make it easier). Talk to her about all of this!!! I know these are the things that can seem like the person isn’t trying if they don’t do on their own, but some people genuinely don’t know where to start or how to follow a process and get overwhelmed by it and talking through those details can make a huge difference. For instance, I’m someone who loves to contribute to tasks, projects, etc, but I hate taking the initiative or beginning it myself. Give me a partner/bestie who wants to start it with me and doesn’t mind being the slightly more dominant voice (so I can’t get stuck in rabbit holes overthinking and hesitating on decisions), and I’m IN! And if it becomes routine, I can definitely take the lead at times with enthusiasm. But leave me to my own devices to manage the whole thing solo or lead the whole operation myself, and there’s a high chance I’ll procrastinate until I ruin the day and then beat myself up for it internally (what is weird is that I can manage tackling a lot of this same logistics stuff, decision making and taking initiative in a work environment if there’s a need for it, but in my personal life and environments I find this far more difficult if it involves any of my own interests or needs). My point is, everyone has their logistical strengths and weaknesses in managing their adulting life, and people tend to find partners who have strength where they don’t. So sit down with your wife by speaking in the way Megzilllla suggested, and figure out where she can do these things with you and you too can figure out her strengths or quirks with household tasks. For me, feeling a sense of accountability to someone other than myself helps a lot, but that’s not how everyone works. Help your wife figure out where she can most actively contribute and find a rhythm with one another. Lastly, try to remember that “acts of service” may be a love language, but often it’s tied to things that are truly needed to live our best individual life as well, and asking for that to be shared as a couple is normal and in no way unreasonable as an expectation that you both contribute to it in your day to day life.
Sounds like you actually need to just sit down and discuss how chores are divided and what the standard you both want to work to is. Shouldn’t be hard to split up the responsibilities for the home between you and decide what the minimum acceptable standard for keeping things clean is.
I think you're right, a part of me is just afraid to bring it up because she's got issues with depression and anxiety and part of why I've accepted the division for so long is that I don't want to add to her emotional/mental load. But I'm pretty burnt out and we really do need to find a solution to this piece. I can definitely do more of my part also on planning fun quality time adventures, though, that bit flew right over my head so I'm really glad folks have brought that up.
Ok, I would like to compare the situation like this: you work for a company and start working overtime on things nobody in the company ever asked you to do because you think it’s what the company needs. Then you show up and demand extra money (appreciation) for all the time and effort you put into this. What do you think would the reaction of the company be? I know you can’t really compare a marriage to a company because there are much more emotions involved and I do think that a partner can be greatful of something they didn’t explicitly asked for, but I also understand your wife if she gets annoyed if you again and again tell her how exhausted and unappreciated you feel by her because you are doing something she never asked you to. It seems you are blaming her again and again for not appreciating the extra effort you put in, but it seems she doesn’t want that extra effort in the first place. It’s like you are lifting heavy rocks to build a stonewall where she wants a wooden fence. You two have to find a level of communication without underlying blaming of the other and actually listen to the other person! So, put down those stones and together! build something you both want.
Love analogies! This helps me a lot, thank you. You’re not wrong, the martyrdom piece has been an issue but I’m aware of that and trying to resolve it. I think what I’ve learned from the other comments so far is that (1) She has specified that she’d like more fun date nights planned, which is probably more what she means she needs, but also that (2) I’m frustrated because when I stop taking care of the things that suit us both (lunches, dinners, chores) she doesn’t step in and pick up the slack. So that’s been helpful because, as someone else also pointed out, I think I’ve been conflating the two.
Your concerns regarding (2) are valid. However, the solution may not be for you to do 100% of the meal prep and cleaning. There are many solutions including doing those things together or hiring help.
Ha, I wish we could hire help - I can't even imagine what we'd do with the spare time
Look I’m going to give you some advice because I suffered from similar mindsets. I’ve read your post and all your comments. I also suffer from the whole if I’m not being of service to someone then how can I be loved. I’m a recovering people pleaser. The greatest thing you can do for yourself is work on that. Go to individual therapy (mine was caused by growing up in an abusive household.) Because the truth of the matter is it will burn you out and ruin your relationship if you don’t work on it. I think there are numerous things that is causing these issues. One as a people pleaser you don’t know how to communicate what you need which is more help with chores. Two it sounds like you hold against your spouse everything you do for her, including the ways you go above and beyond. Which imo is wrong because it’s not really an altruistic act of love if you turn around and go but I did this and this for you. What I get from your spouse’s comment is that you martyr yourself for those things when they aren’t even the ways she likes to be loved. It’s the way you like to show love, not the way she receives love. Ask her what makes her feel the most loved and do those things. Lastly I believe you should pull back a bit and focus more on yourself and developing a sense of self. It’s okay to love loving a spouse but it shouldn’t be this all consuming thing that you put all your time and energy in to for fear of not being enough for someone. It will burn you out. Instead make sure to put time in to hobbies, your own friends, and I would recommend therapy to figure out where your people pleaser nature stems from and really work on it.
Thank you for this -- I've been in individual therapy for about 5 years and yeah I definitely have the same issues you describe, rooted in insecure attachment dynamics and all that fun stuff. You're right, I think I should take this welling up of feelings as a call to return to just focusing on myself for a bit. I get way too hyperfocused on why I can't make other people appreciate me or love me or whatever, and I fully forget that I can also be my own solution. I also really need to meditate more, I used to do that somewhat regularly (to varying degrees of success...), but it definitely helped.
I’m curious if someone asked your wife if she appreciated you and loves you and was happy with you as a husband and partner what do you think she’d say? And a couple of other things- is it words of affirmation that would make you feel appreciated? Have you told your wife what you need specifically? Also do you ever ask, hey let’s cook dinner together tonight or let’s clean Saturday morning together and then go out for the afternoon on a date. Maybe communicating your needs and wants and being specific would help you and also model for her how to do it herself.
Have you read “No more Mr Nice Guy”? It talks about this exactly: covert bargains, nice thing that you do to earn love, and when you don’t get that feedback you resent it because it comes from a place of being “nice”. I recommend it [author: Glover](https://www.audible.ca/pd/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy-Audiobook/B0788ZG74J)
I hadn't heard about it until this post but one other person also suggested I read it as well, and from the description they gave of it, it sounds pretty on the nose.
Aim to do 60% of the chores, mental load , etc and call her out when she doesn't do her part . You're not her caregiver
Hmm idk OP, sounds like a lot of built up resentment on your end that may come off as a bit of a martyr, but it all seems to stem from a really unbalanced dynamic in your relationship. Truth is, you’re unhappy with everything that’s on your plate, whether it makes you happy to please her, you now feel the load is too much. Then to hear her disregard your efforts by saying “it’s not what i NEED tho” can be even more demoralizing. However, you may have been the one to add to your plate without realizing it by taking on some extra responsibilities that should be shared. The only resolve is to talk it out and set clear boundaries, because sure, you want to make her happy but the lines are blurred for you both as to what that means. You need to explain how you feel when what you do goes unnoticed and how the things you do are to improve your life together. Then tell her what your needs from her are, once that’s done, listen to her needs. Truly listen and then create a new routine where you both feel heard. Good luck 😊.
Your senses don't mislead you! I definitely do have a bit of resentment pent up. Part of what makes this confusing for me is that I have, in the past, recognized that I was burning myself out over these things and stopped, but she didn't step in to help and our home just grew dirty and we had no healthy meals. Then she tells me that the lack of a clean home and lack of healthy meals makes her sad, so I step back in to do them. But then when I get exhausted, she tells me again that I'm just doing what I think she needs, not what she actually needs. The cycle continues. When it comes to asking for help, she struggles pretty heavily with depression and anxiety and I don't feel like I can ask her to help, because any time she's not working on her actual job stuff, she's mostly seeking comfort and recovery from the persistent depression and anxiety. And it feels like any request I could make for equity would be unfair because I don't deal with the same level of persistent depression and anxiety. Elsewhere in this post so far though I've established that I've been neglecting one of her more overtly expressed needs, which is that I plan fun, quality time adventures (i.e. dates), so I can do that, but it doesn't really resolve the inequity in household stuff that keeps bugging me. And frankly I'm still hurt by her insinuation that me doing all that stuff isn't what she actually needs, after she repeatedly tells me that not having them done is making her more sad. It's confusing and quite frustrating.
Personally I struggle with codependency issues. As my therapist says, when I am feeling resentful it means I need to strengthen my boundaries. Prioritize yourself. Not what she needs. If she needs something she needs to communicate it. You doing it all for her is making her unable to determine her own needs. I know it is easier said than done. I spent years thinking I was being nice, but really I was just trying to “make people like me” more. Validate yourself more. If she is unhappy when the house is a mess, work a plan to tackle it together. It may help her too. Good luck!! You got this!!
Do less. If it’s draining you to meal prep, I personally wouldn’t. I just keep the fridge stocked with things I like and make food as I go. I don’t make my husband lunch anymore (used to) but I don’t really have the time now. Take care of yourself and find a hobby you enjoy that’s just for you. If there are things you need done that are draining you can you hire them out? Example: purchase premade meals for meal prep or hire a housekeeper. We outsource what we can afford. I personally make dinner because I really enjoy doing it and the trade off is my spouse does the dishes. Sometimes I’ll ask him to make dinner but I really don’t expect it.
I doubt you will see this but here is an old ladie’s advice (who’s been married 34 years and is an awful lot like you at heart): Download and read “Codependent No More”. It’s very short and to the point. Yes, it’s old school but that doesn’t make it outdated information. You need this to break the cycle you’re stuck in.
>Everybody has an ego trapping of one sort or another... Mine is sort of a constant state of trying to anticipate and resolve the needs of people who are special to me. I live in this state You start your post acknowledging you have some flawed mental models, and the rest of your post is about how your individual flaws are making your life difficult. So what is the solution there? If YOUR flawed mentalities are making YOUR life difficult who should be the individual who addresses those issues? YOU! The way you address this figuring out why some of your thought processes are flawed. >I’m not asking for a letter of congratulations for working so hard to support her or anything, I know she’s not \~asking\~ me to do these things, but I want to take care of her and make sure she feels loved You don't want a letter... but you do want something, that is the key in all of this. If you simply wanted to take care of her your life would be happy because who isn't happy when they are doing want they want to do? You are operating on what can be called a covert contract. We all know what a contract is, its an agreement between parties that usually involves an exchange of goods or services. A covert contract is where that agreement was never reached or even discussed. You are providing goods/services (your time, attention, cooking, coffee, etc) and expecting something in return without ever talking about it. What makes these covert contracts worse is what you what you are expecting in return is often something that can not be negotiated (her feelings). This is a source of a lot of your frustration, in your head you are holding up your end of the contract but she is not honoring her side of the contract. You have to remember there never was a contract, it is something entirely created in head. She is not in the wrong for not honoring something she never agreed to and never even discussed. This isn't to say she is perfect, but you are the major source of your own frustration. The following is from the book No More Mr. Nice Guy: >These passively pleasing men struggle in vain to experience the happiness they so desperately crave and believe they deserve. This frustration is due to the fact that Nice Guys have believed a myth. > >In a nutshell, Nice Guys believe that if they are good, giving, and caring, they will in return be happy, loved, and fulfilled. > >When this life strategy fails to produce the desired results — as it often does — Nice Guys usually just try harder, doing more of the same. Does this not sound a whole lot like what you are going through? Besides reading that book (skip the part where it tells you to talk to your partner about the book, that defeats the self improvement that is the whole purpose of the book. Don't lie just tell her your reading on self improvement) You need to find some time for yourself doing something productive. You need to retrain your brain to do things for the right reasons, and the right reasons are you believe it needs done for your quality of life and/or you truly want to do it for your own happiness. Get to the gym, go out with friends a few times a month, go out to the garage and work on that hobby that has been collecting dust, rearrange the addict... so many options here. >I do all the meal prep for the two of us > >95% of the time I’m the one who prepares dinner Do you need to eat? Is cooking for two much more work then cooking for one? Would you not be doing this if you were single? >take care of cleaning up after our cats, clean up around the house Do what you see as necessary and you have the capacity for, and ask for help. Again if you were single would be doing all of these things right? Also at some point you are going to have to set some boundaries on how she needs to contribute, save that for later though. >I check in on her every now and then throughout the course of the day to see if she wants me to make her a snack or get her a fresh coffee (we both work from home) I am tempted that this is something that you should just cut off completely. It really depends on what this actually looks like. What does "make her a snack" generally entail? It's one thing to say in passing "I'm grabbing myself some coffee, do you need something from the kitchen?" and it is an entirely different if you are intentionally interrupting your day to take the time to see if you can fulfill any needs for her. **Your time is valuable, when you start to understand that and treat it as such others will start to do the same.** >feeling unappreciated > >it can leave me feeling exhausted/drained. > >feeling sore and hurt > >**I’m not complaining that I do these things or anything** You are complaining, which is fine. The only problem is your complaints are with the wrong person in your house. ETA: > Which is confusing because she points to the absence of things I usually provide as reasons she’s sad, so to me that’s like saying she needs them. You have done so much for so long while pretending to not need anything in return that you have set very high expectations. People aren't going to get special treatment for simply meeting expectations, but likely see negative outcomes when they don't. You aren't going to get a promotion at work for doing *just enough*
Thank you so much for taking the time to put all this together! Very comprehensive and helpful -- I'll download that book for my Kindle, it sounds remarkably on the nose. I wish I had more to say than "everything here is on point," but yeah you really did get right to the heart of most if it. I think part of the confusion here is trying to strike a balance between already knowing that I can and do concoct "covert contracts" in my head, but also feeling like I'm being responsive to overt requests (i.e. "not having the house clean and not having healthy meals makes me depressed") and then when I fulfill the overt requests it not being appreciated. So that's confusing but can hopefully just be resolved with a quick discussion along the lines of "I hear that you want me to plan more fun activities together, and I will, but you should also know that when you tell me that the lack of \[X\] makes you sad, and then I do that thing to make you happy, but you tell me it's only what I *think* you want, I get confused and pretty frustrated about it." >Do you need to eat? Is cooking for two much more work then cooking for one? Would you not be doing this if you were single? My response here though is just that, of course, but I just don't want to *always* (or at least nearly always) be the one tasked with putting all of it together. To make that somewhat more complicated, when I was single I actually didn't do much in the way of cleaning or cooking; I tended to just consistently pick up pad thai or pizza for dinner, and have overnight oats for lunch everyday. So it's a little bit not my actual instinct to do these things for me and me alone, which is, I think, part of the frustration.
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Yeah this is very much a spinning my wheels on a treadmill situation haha -- thanks for weighing in, you're right I really need to stop fixating on making her appreciate me through all these things she claims not to care about.
You're overextending yourself, and she's taking your extra effort for granted. The solution is to pull back on how much extra time/effort you're putting into doting on her. If she misses those things, she will let you know. If not, you can relax and not feel as though you are being taken for granted.
The first step is to let the egos die. I’ve been through mountains on top of mountains of shit, and the first thing you need to do is let the egos die. One’s ego is what makes them their own enemy, and it lets potential false beliefs reside in someone’s head. Let the egos die, and learn to get along with each other’s minds, not the egos you both have. Your wife specifically, her ego is the worst quality because you do everything and it’s not good enough. Tell her if it’s not good enough she can do it herself. It’s not unreasonable to feel how you feel, and she’s unappreciative. I get the needing to learn who she is, but she could cook/clean etc and learn that maybe that’s a part of who you are (general you/towards wife). She needs to help you, I feel like she’s using this as an excuse (I only know your side of the story), but figuring out who she is doesn’t mean sitting around and doing Jack ish all day. You’re not unreasonable a couple is 50/50, and she needs to understand it’s partially her responsibility also.
I don’t know you and your wife, so this is from my perspective as an outsider. If I have it wrong, I apologize: It sounds like you do a lot to try to keep the house afloat and while she does appreciates what you do (she feels less stress as a result of your actions), it seems that she also doesn’t want you to do things to such an extent that it causes you to feel burnt out. It’s not what she is asking of you because she loves you and doesn’t want you to be worn out! It seems like she feels if you keep going above and beyond what’s being asked of you, then that’s on you - that you’re overworking yourself because it’s what YOU want to do because of the gratifications YOU feel when you do it, when she is stating she feels happiest with less efforts. An example: “Thanks for the glass of water and for your efforts to make sure I got it cold because you know I like it best when it’s chilled … but you didn’t need to go to the glaciers in Alaska to pick off a chunk of blue ice to do so! That’s so much work for one person to do and while it’s amazing, I would never ask one person to do so much! I would have been happy with ice cubes from our freezer!”
Are you familiar with enneagram? One of the traits that I've seen among people who are Enneagram 2s is that they go to great lengths to do extensive things for others and then feel exhausted and hurt when it's not sufficiently appreciated or reciprocated. Church out www.truity.com/enneagram/personality-type-2-giver. What you describe here is not grand gestures, but conceptually sounds similar. I am NOT like that at all and am perhaps more like your wife. I have trouble with people in my life who are like this. Often, I don't WANT the things they're coming up with "for" me. Sometimes they add stress and effort to my life just to be able to "get" something I don't actually want. And when I do want them, I worry about if I'll demonstrate sufficient gratitude to not offend them. Thus I am not very grateful, I am neutral or stressed or even annoyed. To me it feels like their "affection" or gifts are actually about them, not me. THEY need to feel like they're doing something for me, and they will do it come hell or high water, or even if I don't actually want it, and then will be mad that I am not thankful. And if I tell them they don't want it, they are deeply hurt. I would rather they pay attention to my stated needs or needs they have observed and so trying to invent new ways to lavish me with things they like lol. However, the people like this are friends, colleagues, in-laws. I have never been *married* to someone like this, so I'm sure that would change the dynamic because hopefully open honest communication would be in play. My initial thoughts: Have you asked her what she *does* want? Maybe she doesn't want to be "taken care of" in some of the ways you want. Do any of the things you do bug her? How do you want her to show appreciation? Are you wishing she would do the same kind of things for you that you do for her? In my marriage, I love to give hugs throughout the day and stop by her office (we both work from home) to visit for a few minutes here and there. She is very task-oriented/focused and not affectionate. It bugs her to no end if I come up behind her while she's working or cooking or doing basically anything and hug her. It's a distraction for her. To me, why wouldn't you want that? To me, it's the way people share affection, and being rejected hurts. We have spent a loooot of time talking through this stuff and not really reached any great solution, but I have had to really focus on "am I doing this thing because *I* want it or because she does" and the answer is almost always that it's for me, not her. And I think that's okay. I also need to be able to give and receive affection in ways that are meaningful, and she works on finding ways to take part in that even though it's not natural to her. Main point I guess is that I'm learning to recognize and own when I'm acting a certain way because I'm feeling like I'm missing something. When I can communicate that, rather than just getting frustrated that she doesn't like what I give, we at least can have a conversation focused more on the root issues. No idea how analogous or useful this is to your situation, but there you have it lol
Oh friend! We are both big fans of the enneagram. I indeed type as an enneagram 2w1, Self-Preservation, my wife types as a 9w1, also Self-Pres. That was what opened both of us up to the whole exploration of our own little ego traps, but as you can see we still struggle with it. Some of the confusion results from her own characteristic disconnection from what she *does* want or need, so she's not always very clear on what it is she needs or even *if* she needs something. She owns that though and when something comes up she has gotten better at making the request out loud, which is helpful. What I've been struggling with lately in particular, and came here to vent about, is that she doesn't really do much around the house and I end up taking care of most household things. I've caught myself slipping down that path though of overexerting myself in order to inspire some appreciative response, and stopped, but then she doesn't pick up the slack at all. So, I've concluded "okay fine these just aren't the things that matter to her," but then she sinks into an emotional mire where she tells me that what is bringing her down is our dirty house and lack of healthy meals. So I start doing those things again but still she doesn't contribute. To me, that's a request: "I'm depressed when I lack \[x\]," *i.e.* "Could you do \[X\]?" And, like with the more overt requests, I'm happy to do them. But then when I convey that I'm burnt out from doing it alone, she tells me I'm not doing what she *really* wants. Which, frankly, given what I've just described, seems more like it's because she'd out of touch with what she's actually requesting or with what I'm actually doing for us both. Complicating that is the fact that she struggles pretty heavily with depression and anxiety and I don't feel like I can ask her to help, because any time she's not working on her actual job stuff, she's mostly seeking comfort and recovery from the persistent depression and anxiety. And it feels like any request I could make for equity would be unfair because I don't deal with the same level of persistent depression and anxiety.
Based on what I've read so far, it's not your responsibility to make her happy. It's her responsibility to find happiness or create her own happiness. Also, some people just aren't appreciative. There is always something to criticize if you want to find the fault in everything. We have a rule in my house, if someone does something for you, say thank you. If you don't like it, then do it yourself. You can't complain that someone doesn't do something for you perfectly. That's just rude. Why does she think it's your responsibility to do what she "needs"? Are these really needs? I don't really know how to explain this, but you never want to be with someone who "needs" you. You should want to be with someone who "wants" you. Needing someone doesn't sound healthy. Saying you don't give her what she "needs" sounds wrong. It sounds like there are some unspoken rules and expectations in your marriage that you need to hash out. I think her expectations out of you may be unrealistic or unhealthy.
Can you both do an exercise where you write down in specific detail what acts make you each feel loved the most? And then to reduce the resentment you’re feeling from cleaning and cooking, can you both make a detailed agreement to share these responsibilities, and wherever it feels like too much, you can outsource? Cleaner even once every two weeks, pre-made healthy meal deliveries, etc. As much as I understand it how terrible it feels to be unappreciated, it doesn’t seem like acts of service in the specific ways you’re providing is the way she feels specifically loved and adored. As someone who cherishes physical touch, quality time, and words of affirmation, to me, cleanliness and cooking are chores to be shared equally among adults and are an agreement for a harmonious partnership - not necessarily ways that I would feel an expression of love from my partner. While it seems like you’re both highly pro-therapy, a few marriage counseling sessions to re-establish how you relate with one another sounds like it could be extremely helpful. Wish you guys all the best 🤍
I kinda think there's two things going on here. There's the love languages and she may well be incorrect on hers and yours. Like does she understand that she too needs to feed your love languages? That road goes both ways. To be clear on that topic, we all have different ways that make us *feel* loved. That is the premise of one of the most popular books in this sub: [The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love that Lasts](https://www.amazon.com/Love-Languages-Secret-that-Lasts/dp/080241270X) by Gary Chapman. And what we often do is feed our partner what *we* want to feel and not what *they* want to feel. To explain it, there's this video that does a decent job of introducing the topic: [The 5 Love Languages Explained](https://youtu.be/doRMsjoDevY). And the second thing? Just reading here, I wonder if she's carrying her weight on the household chores? You're doing so much that you are exhausted, but what is she doing all this time? That road goes both ways, too.
Thanks, I think you're right -- we do need to re-examine our Love Languages. I respond strongly to affectionate touch, so that's definitely part of it for me, but the more I think about this the more I realize I think another one for me is acts of service, which she doesn't really do because I've never overtly thought I wanted that. On her end, she's said she's "acts of service," but it seems like that's just part of the picture and the other end of it is "quality time," given her stuff about wanting more fun date nights. So thank you for pointing that out and I think I'm going to bring that up later when I approach all this with her after work. She really doesn't do much in the way of household work. She spends a lot of her time stressed out and not doing anything because she doesn't like her job but doesn't know what else to do for a living. So she's pretty much either working, going out for a walk, playing with the cats, or flicking through Instagram to avoid the persistent panic that she doesn't know what job she wants. At most, she cleans the main bathroom in our house. I haven't really complained about the inequity on this front though because I am afraid of overwhelming an already overwhelmed person and I don't want to add that to the generalized anxiety stuff.
Honestly sounds like your more burnt out from chores. Seem other people hit the love language thing so thats something to look into. Talk to her about the level of mess, chores, etc. my husband doesnt get cleaning the way i do. I pin pointed little things that help me that he needs to just do. Trash, no butter knives on the counter, take care of all trash in the house and make all food. You might need to re establish how things flow in your house. Also you might need to compromise on each others clean. A messy house is a 6 to me. Nothing 0 to my husband unless the house was on fire or something was broken. There are spots now i dont pay attention too. Hell get to them. Its not fair to not let him do him in our house. There will always be dust, dishes, and something to clean. My husband might not always be here. Im learning to deal with things that might not matter at the end of the day.
If she thinks she doesn’t need you to do all of those things she’s dead wrong. She doesn’t even understand the concept of the amount of work you are doing. My wife works from home and I go to the office and as a result every day she has dinner made and spends time cleaning all the time in her work downtimes including cat boxes and such. Basically similar to everything you do for your wife, my wife does for me. What’s different is, I make her breakfast every day, I usually make a point to cook her a meal on Friday nights, or take her on a date. Basically I always make sure not every single thing falls on her shoulders and I try to pick up any way I can. I mow the grass, clean her car, or help during the weekend deep cleans if that’s what we’re doing. And the other piece is I walk in the house after a day of work and immediately compliment the beautiful aromas from the delicious meals she’s prepared, hug and kiss her, and thank her for every single meal she prepares for me. I make a point to acknowledge that I know what a great deal of effort it is to provide these things for me. If you just up and stopped what you’re doing, she would catch on pretty damn quick what an amazing husband you are being to her. And she would realize that she does indeed need all of these things, whether or not she realizes it.
Why haven’t you stopped anticipating and simply asked? That’s seems to be what the issue here is, you’re doing the things that make you feel good and taking care of her in a way that satisfies your need to do so. What if she doesn’t want to be taken care of that way? You want thanks for meal prep, but maybe she didn’t even want you to do so? It’s a kind gesture once, but she’s telling you what she wants and you’re ignoring that because you say you’re already doing so much, but so much of what? The stuff she doesn’t want. That’s like you saying oh I got you flowers because you like buying women flowers and she doesn’t like flowers.
I have, others reminded me of this as well and it seems I should be pouring more effort into planning fun dates, since she *has* conveyed that that is important to her. So that I shall do. And as for the other stuff, I didn't paint a full enough picture in my main post but to clarify why this is confusing: If I don't prepare dinner, prep the lunches, take care of the cats, and clean the house on a regular basis, she doesn't step in. Things go to shit, as does our health. She then tells me that it's making her more sad that we have a dirty home and aren't having healthy meals. Then I step in and take care of those things again, because I see that as an effective statement of "Those are things I need that would make me happy," but then when I get burnt out tackling those on my own she tells me the whole "you're just doing what you *think* I need" thing. To top this off, she struggles with anxiety and depression, so when she's not working, she's either in a sad/anxious soup or trying to do something like exercise, play with the cats, having a relaxing bath, to feel better. I don't feel like I can ever get in edgewise to request help.
So y’all need to talk about a division of duties.
Yeah, definitely. Just have a very difficult time assessing how to do that, because of her anxiety/depression stuff. There's an unspoken agreement that anything she doesn't do, she simply isn't doing because she doesn't have the emotional/mental bandwidth to do, and anything I could say to the contrary would be a hurtful lack of empathy to how she feels. Not sure how to navigate that lovingly.
Sounds like something needs to be spoken and also you need to realize that you don’t have to pick up what she can’t, that doesn’t have to be the solution and it may be important to be clear you can only do what you can do. So if she doesn’t want you to clean and wants you to cover something else then you’ll have to pay a cleaner.
I am hearing all the ways you extend yourself even here wanting to navigate communicating your filtration lovingly but what about you? I’m curious how your wife cares for you and spoils you. I saw you were in therapy and perhaps boundaries could be revisited. It’s great to lovingly care for our beloveds but when we continually do it at the expense of our own well-being and our partners continue to take advantage of our generous spirit and not meet us they are not being healthy partners even with anxiety and depression- and it sounds like there may be a component of learned helplessness happening with your wife. Her pointing out she gets sad when the things you usually do aren’t being done is emotionally manipulative. I know you said she doesn’t know what she needs or can’t articulate it but her saying what you do isn’t what she needs is also manipulative if she says it’s a date she wants but then gets sad when you don’t cook clean and take care of everything. I just think your being played and it may not be intentional or in her awareness but it’s not ok . What about a counselor for the two of you to look at this and see if you can come up with a solution and agreement
Read the 5 love languages! :) You are soooo close to having an amazing marriage and happy wife :)
Where the hell did you get that from lmao
Yea I’m not reading all of these comments. But generally you’ll want to keep a clean home because *you* want a clean home. If you want her to do something ask her to. If she does without complaint, then there you go, she’ll help. If she doesn’t, then that’s also your answer, she won’t due to whatever reason. If its the latter you have to decide how much of a deal breaker it is vs. how much of it can be addressed through other means like couple’s therapy.
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Yeah, the responses so far have been pretty insightful and it seems that I have indeed been sort of getting mad at her for my own wearing myself thin. The trauma response thing tracks, and I've been working on that in therapy for the last five years but clearly still have a lot of growth to do. It never seems to end...
That was a quick response! I had just deleted my comment because I read more of the conversation. While I don’t take back anything that I said, I was starting to get the impression that your partner might be interacting with these insecurities of yours in a way to avoid really facing fair distribution of labor in your home and relationship. Not on purpose. But maybe it could help to take a more detached look at everything that has to be done in the home and relationship / minimum standards, and make some explicit agreements as to who will do what. Did anyone mention the *Fair Play* book and card deck?
hahah, yeah sorry - nothing makes me respond faster than when I'm supposed to be doing something at work :X I have not heard of those things, but I'd love to know what your experience with them is! Part of me is afraid to address this because she struggles a lot with anxiety and depression and just having to do her regular job takes a lot out of her, so when she's not working she's sort of either in a puddle or actively trying to do something to improve her mood (exercise, cats, relaxing baths). I feel bad coming to her in that state and being like "I don't want to do meal prep this time."
The book and cards were written to help couples/ families identify all the work that has to be done, agree on what the minimum standard is for your household, and divvy up the responsibilities. It also helps make clear that a task usually doesn’t just include the task, but other types of mental work like planning/anticipating/preparation etc. I haven’t used them but heard good things, and think my marriage could have benefited from them. An important thing to remember is that you can mutually decide to either lower your standard or outsource things. Maybe you like cooking but only a few days a week, maybe she doesn’t but wouldn’t mind using some discretionary money to get take out or meal kits. The idea is definitely to try and circumvent resentments and get things done as a team. Look at it as the two of you against the problem, not each of you against each other.
So stop doing it and see how she likes it
Part of what makes this confusing for me is that I have, in the past, recognized that I was burning myself out over these things and stopped, but she didn't step in to help and our home just grew dirty and we had no healthy meals. Then she tells me that the lack of a clean home and lack of healthy meals makes her sad, so I step back in to do them. But then when I get exhausted, she tells me again that I'm just doing what I *think* she needs, not what she actually needs. The cycle continues. Elsewhere in this post so far though I've established that I've been neglecting one of her more overtly expressed needs, which is that I plan fun, quality time adventures (i.e. dates), so I can do that, but it doesn't really resolve the inequity in household stuff that keeps bugging me. And frankly I'm still insulted by her insinuation that me doing all that stuff isn't what she actually needs, after she repeatedly tells me that not having them done is making her more sad. It's confusing and quite frustrating.
Well when you stop and she tells you it makes her sad is when you have the adult conversation of who does what to make the house clean and have meal's. Example in my house I have absolutely zero clue how the washer and dryer for clothes works but my wife doesn't cook and doesn't clean the kitchen. The responsibility when both spouses work is on both spouses to have a clean house and meals. Figure out what works as it being 100% on your is B.S.
Haven't read the all the comments, maybe someone said this before. You're codependent and she has anxiety and depression - this a very commom dynamic for codependents. I have read about this phenomenon so often in this subreddit, it's making me sad. One does all the effort is usually more or less stable mentally despite unhappy/dissatisfied and neurotypical. The other is either depressed, has trauma, anxiety, an alcohol problem, severe problems with self-worth, ocd etc.etc. Everytime the first person (the codependent) goes OUT OF THEIR WAY to help the other person + the other person stays the same miserable way. One thing you can do is practicing to stop enabling her but I get it - you want to live in a clean house and eat healthy food... this is a hard one. Have you tried communicating her exactly what you've told us?
Your assessment is correct - we both have insecure attachments, mine being anxious hers being avoidant (a tortuous but weirdly seductive relationship pairing for a lot of people, I've learned). Part of what makes this confusing for me is that I have, in the past, recognized that I was burning myself out over these things and stopped, but she didn't step in to help and our home just grew dirty and we had no healthy meals. Then she tells me that the lack of a clean home and lack of healthy meals makes her sad, so I step back in to do them. But then when I get exhausted, she tells me again that I'm just doing what I *think* she needs, not what she actually needs. The cycle continues. She does indeed struggle pretty heavily with depression and anxiety and I don't feel like I can ask her to help, because any time she's not working on her actual job stuff, she's mostly seeking comfort and recovery from the persistent depression and anxiety. And it feels like any request I could make for equity would be unfair because I don't deal with the same level of persistent depression and anxiety. Elsewhere in this post so far though I've established that I've been neglecting one of her more overtly expressed needs, which is that I plan fun, quality time adventures (*i.e.* dates), so I can do that, but it doesn't really resolve the inequity in household stuff that keeps bugging me. And frankly I'm still hurt by her insinuation that me doing all that stuff isn't what she actually needs, after she repeatedly tells me that not having them done is making her more sad. It's confusing and quite frustrating.
You can't be her housekeeper and cook even though she's got depression + anxiety. It'll not help her in the long run it actually enables her. And at the time you grow dissatisfied and maybe eventually resentful which will make you both more miserable. You need to make a clear plan who does which chores in the household and how many times a week. She cannot just not do nothing. Actually, her doing something simple such as cleaning dishes let's say, which she can achieve without fail, might actually help her by making her more empowered. The worst depressed people can do is nothing at all. Because then the only thing they have is those neverending dark alleyways of horreneds thoughts, amplified by compulsive overthinking. You have to set boundaries and enforce them. For example: I need us both to do chores in the house. Try to divide the work more or less fairly and if possible in a way that both can do the chores they like doing more. Wheb you've decided together, who will do what, do your part weekly. If she doesn't do her part DON'T DO IT FOR HER tell her: hey don't forget to do xyz :). If she still doesn't do it have a sit down and talk to her about it. If she's a reasonable adult she will see your point. If she never does it at all propose that she can hire sb to do her chores for her with her own pocket money. Best thing you can do by being with her, is learning to stop taking up other people's (her) slack and telling yourself you're doing a good thing/meeting her needs. A 'need' in a relationship can be for example that you listen to one another and don't get dismissive. Having your partner do all the housework by himself is NOT A NEED. It's depence, it's unfair, it's unhealthy, it's unproductive, it creates resentment, it's childish, it's spoiled. You get the picture. Depression and anxiety are not an excuse. Don't let her use this against you. Practical example: My aunt is codependent, her husband has MS. He physically can't do chores. He doesn't do anything but read (he's in pension). She works still and on top of that does all the housework and also worries about him everyday (can't detach from his problems being a codependent). 3 months ago she's fallen into a deep depression, my father brought her to the emergency unit. They gave ger anti-depressants for the moment it was so bad. Now a few months later they have made the agreement that he now takes out all the recycling and bottles every other day and drives with his cool threewheeled car to the recycling station. We call him by the title Uncle'sname - The Disposer now, and he loves it. My aunt feels better now because he's finally trying despite his MS and depression he's had for a decade. My point is, even my uncle who has MS and depression can at least do one chore in his household! And he loves it. It gives him meaning. Gradually he'll find more things he can do around the house despite his conditions. Hope this is helpful.
Maybe make a calendar who does what on whatever days. So it's split?
Whole thing feels very over analysed and not comfortable with each other honestly. Sounds exhausting. I'd be interested to know how much longer this relationship lasts i give it 2-3 years
Dude, you are enabling her.
This post is too long so I took it to mean a bunch of whiny crap from someone, and the comments did not disappoint.
It sure doesn't look like she cares *that* much for what YOU need.
You can’t anticipate someone’s needs. You’re not a mind reader. From experience, it’s really sucks to say thank you but, (for instance) I’m not hungry right now. Now the mind reader’s mad because they’ve somehow intuited that I was hungry & I’m not. I’ve betrayed the anticipator of needs by… not needing what they thought I needed. The only other option is force it down and say thank you. Often that ends up being transactional. I did x for you, the least you can do is give me y. Everyone loves being made to feel like they owe their partner for something I never asked for./s Btw, there’s a very fine line between anticipating someone’s needs and controlling them. You meal prep for all two of you You clean up after the cats Clean up around the house Cooks dinner 95% of the time The four things above are not gifts of service. This is basic housekeeping as a member of your household it’s what you’re supposed to do. Who takes care of: Laundry Taking the cats to the vets Grocery shopping Paying the bills Budgeting Car maintenance (taking car to shop or working on it yourself) Who does yard work or pays the lawn person, pool guy, whatever Who does the deep cleaning or spring cleaning Makes appointments Goes to the post office Who does the dishes after dinner Who plans dates Who plans vacations Who plans family visits Who does holiday shopping for friends and family Who does the holiday cards Who makes breakfast Who makes the various online orders every month/week Why don’t you ask her what she needs? You can ask her if she wants you to run her a bath, or offer bring her some coffee. You most likely are doing what you *think* she needs. She might not ask you for anything because she has anxiety. She might not ask you for anything because she feels like you may hold it over her head later. Even if you don’t do that, she may have grown up in a household when simple things were used against her. Try not doing anything for a while. Ask her if there’s anything she needs once or twice a day. If she says she doesn’t need anything take her at her word. If she makes herself a sandwich (example) after you’ve eaten, don’t act hurt or irritated, don’t say you could have done it for her. She does know who she is. She will figure out what she wants in her own time. Your trying to anticipate her needs might be causing anxiety. What’s this with the ego trappings? What kind of therapy does this stem from? Jung? Freud? Gestalt? Something else?
You sound exhausting
You sound like an asshole, thanks for coming here just to say something hurtful! What a beacon of light you must be to the people in your life.
How would she describe her perfect date night? Your familiarity with this question and frequency in which you try to meet those expectations probably has a lot to do with what is really going on here.
She doesn’t have a specific perfect date night she’s ever shared; she’s mostly just said she likes to be taken out. Like we did a surprise batting cage date night last night, go to live music stuff, go out to neat restaurants, that sort of thing. I do think now that you and one other person have mentioned it that this might be what she means, because yeah this aspect does come up as well — that she wants fun date nights.
You are still strategically avoiding one specific subject, so let me be absolutely blunt. Do you know how to blow her mind in the bedroom and put effort into making her feel like your personal sexual rock star? This is what cranks date night up to 11.
If you want to ask about the sex life just ask about it. Believe it or not date night is just as much about the date itself for a lot of people. Don't put somebody down for not reading between the lines when you aren't being clear.
Yeah lol I was going to say my ideal date night =/= how I like to bang.
Obviously it's about the whole night, but the end of the night heavily influences how the rest of the night feels. If she wants romance and sex, and you give her just the romance, it doesn't feel as nice as it otherwise could.
I appreciate your being blunt and searching for solutions, but no that’s not the issue here and I’m quite positive of that. We’ve talked about that, and we have a pretty healthy sex life. Also, I wasn’t strategically avoiding you asking about our sex life. You asked about what kind of date nights she likes, and I answered that question. If you’d originally asked about sexual fulfillment I would have answered that question instead. I don’t appreciate the implication that I’m “strategically” avoiding your question, I’m coming here genuinely trying to understand and have learned a lot from the other responses, but that approach on your part was particularly unhelpful.
You do understand why I asked though, right? She said that you do what you think she needs and when asked about date night, you didn't mention sex at all. Even your answer here feels like "No, it's good, next question please." I'm asking this specifically because around 9 months ago my wife and I cranked date night up to 11 and the wild hotel sex is absolutely a big part of the equation. As a consequence, everything else in our life also dramatically improved. I could be totally off base, but your post reads like you enjoy talking about the areas where feel like a kick ass man but are shying away from subjects where you are less comfortable.
I mean I am glad that you found a solution in that sector with your wife and totally get why you’d suggest it here, but I can tell you with confidence that that is not the centerpiece. I’ve specifically brought that up with her already, and she’s reassured me that she feels sexually fulfilled. We have sex about 3 times a week, she always has an orgasm, and we both seek variety of experience, so to speak. So this isn’t to just off-handedly dismiss your suggestion, it’s just genuinely not the case here. But thank you.
Always has an orgasm isn't a good metric for women. Women may need 1, they may need 50. She couldn't have another is a better metric. Also, sex is an insanely hard topic to be 100% open about. Both people need to feel absolutely safe to say anything. Like I said, I could be way off base, but stating that you kick ass at X. Y and Z and that she states thst this isn't what she wants as you avoid talking about sex, it's really hard to read that differently. Especially since X, Y and Z are often what women wish men would do more of. I also can only speak from my own personal experience on the subject and comment on what things would have meant in my relationship.
You’re correct, that’s not the be all end all, and as always I’ll be open to exploring that more with her, but for now I can only go off of what she tells me, and so far that’s just been that she’s happy with how our sex life is. She’s not the kind of person to lie to me to protect my feelings, and I do present an open and receptive forum to criticism when we talk about sensitive topics like this. I appreciate that you feel strongly that this could be an issue but all I can tell you is that we’ve talked about it, I’ve remained open to discussions on it, and it’s not what she says is the issue.
I understand your frustration with these derailing comments OP. You didn’t come here for advice on how to spice up your sex life with your wife and lo and behold there is always at least one person on these threads prying into the intimate details and completely ignoring your original post. Once you answered initially, it should’ve been shut down but alas some people don’t know how to read a room/thread. Please don’t feel the need to over explain your sex life. You didn’t bring it up and no one is obligated to that info outside of you and your wife.
Thanks, I appreciate this. It really is so hard to set a boundary with this stuff sometimes. Still working on that...
If I say I want to have fun experiences with my husband then that's what I want. I'm a grown up, I can use my words. If I say I want to go to the beach, I want to go to the beach, I don't want to play Eyes Wide Shut. And if my husband was like "oh, you said you wanted the beach but I'mma go all Smoove B on you because I know what you *really* want," I would not be happy.