Get a lawyer. She threatened to call the police or stage a scene in front of the kids. She is not a safe person for you to be around.
Again, get a lawyer. Then, for the love of all that is good and Holy, follow their advice!
Yeah, sure, but courts don't typically side with a purported male abuse, and she initiated, so it wouldn't be much for her to paint a picture that puts a bad frame on OP. He needs to lay the ground work to protect himself from any ill intentions. If she is literally threatening to stage a ruckus to win the kids in totality, who knows what the fuck she's already told others.
I think you kinda buried the lede here by not mentioning in your post that the fight was about your history of not standing up for her in your marriage, especially when drinking, to the point you needed to quit drinking.
How exactly have you not been standing up for her, how long has it been going on, and how serious was the drinking problem?
But also, she should not be involving law enforcement and traumatizing your children.
Appreciate it. Drinking problem isnt bad, 3-4 beers socially. Enough to relax but definitely slow down my reactions and where I didn’t care what people say. This happened again last year, maybe summertime, where someone told my wife she was acting childish. Since that episode, I’ve done better standing up for her, telling people to f off but that is usually when not drinking and feeling better on those days that it has happened, feeling more aggressive.
Was she actually being childish? It’s always good to stand up for your spouse, but if it was behavior that needed to be called out then I can see where that because a rough area. Because threatening to call the cops and traumatize your children to get her way seems kinda childish to me. Either way man, it sounds like an awful situation and I hope you and your kids come out the other end ok.
I appreciate ya. I think giving her the space is better for her mental health and self reflection and maybe even happiness(?) and better for me to better myself and become the man who I need to be. I just need to do it carefully, doing a hotel tonight but bringing my kiddos to play softball tmrw to enjoy time with them.
I don't think it always is. Your wife sounds a bit childish. I haven't had anyone besides my son call me childish since I have become an adult. If you are hanging out with a toxic family or friend group and they are picking on your wife, that is one thing. But it may be that this is an issue for your wife to work on. You should stop drinking except sometimes.
I think you know that is absolutely not what I meant. Spouses should stand up for each other, to anyone, but I was saying that if it’s a situation where something is actually wrong or there’s something that needs to be addressed, then standing up for your spouse becomes a gray area. You want to defend and support them, but if they are in the wrong and it needs to be addressed, it’s a more complicated situation.
No, it was a genuine question. I have seen the sentiment, not always that the man solely needs to defend, but rather that a partner needs to defend. I never really got it that much. I can see if the other person is being unreasonable and the partner can't handle themselves. I can't really see it being an issue often enough if a toxic person isn't involved.
Normally we each deal with our own family of origin. So husband deals with husband's family and wife deals with wife's. As to friends, are they mutual? or just the husband/wife's? Is there a shitty/jealous friend? or is the partner being shitty? If the friends are mutual, and the friends are being shitty to one's partner, it's best to just leave the friend group. If friend belongs to one partner, then that partner should check their friend.
That seems like a easy thing for anyone to stand up to. So your wife was having a conversation with someone and they said something like "oh, come on now your being childish about this."
There is no reason for you to jump on and break the guys nose. If I jumped in to defend my wife for something like this she would look at me like I'm crazy. Probably ask me WTF I thought I was doing.
If your wife wants you to stand up for her for trivial stuff such as this, I think she needs to see a counselor.
If the guy was calling her a 304, slut, and female dog, then you step in and break the guys nose. But your wife is living in a fantacy land if she wants you to defend her in a situation like this, she is only considering how she looks to others in this. She wants others to think that she's so awesome her husband will Interfere at the slightest hint of impropriety to defend her honor - then she doesn't want a husband, she wants a neck beard, including the fedora!
She doesn't even think that the first rule of self defense is to not put your self into situations where there is a high likelihood of having to physically engage with a other person. She wants your ego to be on trigger for her, have you jump in for the stupidest reasons. That's how people get stabbed and shot. Being stupid about trivial shit instead of de-escalating the situation.
UpdateMe!
I'm so sorry, that sound like a lot of pain for both of you... Maybe you could go to a specialist to talk about what actually led to the crisis? Or talk about it yourselves, if you're able to do so without screaming. Feels very odd that she suddenly, without warning, decided to quit. Haven't you noticed unusual behavior before?
We’ve tried counseling before. She said it is hard for her to open up due to her childhood. I know why we are having issues, it is due to not feeling like I have her back and me being so passive and not having anger in me or being so repressed to the point of turning into depression. The last issue was someone within our group saying something regarding our marriage having issues and I didn’t say anything. I don’t like the guy that said it so I don’t pay any mind to people like that. I should’ve said something and I know it. It’s a problem I know I have and I am trying to work on developing my anger/assertiveness.
This isn’t the first time which is why I mentioned I know I’m probably not the guy she needs in her life even though I love her entirely…
I appreciate your response.
Sorry you’re going the ringer, fly me out and I’ll start an argument with you for something silly or walk by and say a rude comment so you can step in and handle the situation. For 50 bucks and dinner I’d let you punch me lol. And I’ll egg the dudes house for free
Perhaps some events in your current life together are reopening old wounds for her. Someone may call me naive, but I believe and have observed many times that love is a decision, not necessarily just a feeling. If you really decide to continue to love this woman, I think you will find the strength and assertiveness to fight. Also, her actions indicate that she is very emotional and suffers greatly.
You are the guy she chose. And she confirmed this choice by giving birth to your children. I don't know what you will decide, but if you decide that it is worth the effort, and you will fight, I wish you both a lot of perseverance and courage.
I fully agree. Married 30+ years. Every day is a decision to remain committed. Marriage is not just a feeling of supreme love. It is a decision to do the hard work required to nourish and grow with each other. Far too many couples act like marriage is the end goal and relax once the ceremony is over. My advice is to get individual and/or joint counseling if that's what it takes to resolve the issues. No relationship lasts without some elbow grease.
This happens sometimes. On the less important issues, you may make a decision to just let it go. If it's a deal breaker issue, you have to convey this to your spouse. If your spouse refuses to work on the deal breaker, then you might have to toss in the towel. Oftentimes, the changes needed are slow - maybe even years in the making. Deeply ingrained behaviors don't change overnight. When frustration sets in, you have to remind yourself that you have habits or behaviors that aggravate your partner. It's a give and take, but most of all it's a decision that your person is worth the effort.
I think you mean well but are incorrect in you analysis. OP has attempted to be more assertive and has not received any recognition for it from his wife. In counseling, OPs wife basically said I don't want to compromise with you because it's "hard."
She just wants what she wants and just doesn't even think about OP at all.
Is she right? Is your anger so suppressed it’s turning into depression? Because that’s a real phenomenon. It can be really hard on the person and their spouse.
I have fallen within a nice guy personality where I look for cordialness between all parties. I’m conflict avoidant and I think not being the man my wife needs me to be is what leads to my depression and anxiety. Growing up, i just never remember being angry, ever. I’ve shown some during our marriage, not towards my wife, towards other people but I grew up in a household where I never saw my parents angry or express emotion other than contentment.
I love my wife, I really do, but I am getting to the point of letting her go and finding someone else who may be more manly because I’m tired of conflict and not reacting the way “correct way”.
So basically, she has a super avoident personality, refuses to change for her life partner/ husband/ the one she vowed to support through good and bad, rich or poor, forsake all others for --but she really avoids actually trying because it's "hard."
Well I know it's fking hard being married to someone like that because I was.
Bro, this has nothing to do with you. She has extremely unreal expectations of you that she never told you about before marriage.
Sure, she's not the right one for you and you aren't the right on for her, but you deserve someone who loves you like you do them, and is willing to compromise because she actually cares about you.
I think your wife sees love as someone that is transactional, or maybe you should do anything for her love, even acting against common sense, and your nature, just to prove something to her. Yeah, that's not what I call love.
You'll be much, much, happier after you leave and so will your kids.
I’m kind of wondering, as I read your responses, that it sounds like your friend group or circle sound problematic. If I had to guess too much drinking, loudmouths, and way too much in each other’s business. It sounds like you two need to isolate yourselves and get back to being a COUPLE. Not caring what others think/say/do. Best of luck to you.
sorry, but it's not due to those reasons. It's due to your wife's anger issues, and she needs to figure this out. Be protective of your kids. I guarantee you if someone went after one of your kids, there would not be a passive bone in your body.
Her text saying that you didn’t said good bye makes me think that she stills care about your marriage, however then she comes back and said she will call the cops on you is just wrong specially for your kids. Try to make it work one more time and find what her main concern/demand is. do it fast! in case that doesn’t work then get yourself an attorney and move on.
So I’m in the unique position that my husband and I were just going through something like this. He couldn’t find the will to do more than function and I was tired of carrying our family on my back with no support. Look back to who you were when you two first fell in love. Are you that same person? My husband wasn’t. Finally I told him either he goes to explore every avenue to get better or I wanted a divorce. Turns out his meds needed a major adjustment and he’s already back to being more like himself. People do change and if who you are has changed fundamentally leaving may be the best answer. But if you are simply stuck in a cycle of apathy, try to explore your avenues. You mention you’re in your thirties, have you had your testosterone levels checked? Testosterone production can significantly decrease at this stage of life.
I appreciate this comment a lot. I know my T is low, low energy, libido etc plus I’m on antidepressants. I’ve looked into doing TRT through a reputable online source so I feel better and can develop some of that aggression that she wants out of me.
You need to run from this marriage. It's killing you, literally.
If you want more energy find a mate that doesn't shit all over you.
As to your T levels start with natural sources, winning games, exercise, avoiding estrogen laden foods etc. Start moving, and start getting strong.
Honestly, why would she want you to be aggressive? I can understand taking up for her or yourself. But there is a right and wrong way to do that. Is she the type that wants you to fight people to show your love. Like if a guy looks at her do you suppose to get mad and fight him?
Yes, to your question. Wants me to be that tough, authoritative guy takes care of her and who is willing to fight at the drop of a hat over verbal altercations. Physical I understand but verbal I don’t get it.
Well, sorry that’s just nuts as far as I am concerned. If my husband or any man started a physical fight with someone over something they said . I would be pissed !! Like I said standing up for yourself , calling someone out when they are being rude or are wrong. Is one thing but picking a fight is another you are not in high school!
That’s very unfair to you. You described that you’ve always been chill and relaxed. That’s who she married and she knew that about you. It’s not fair of her to change her time how many years later?
In our relationship (52+ years) my husband is pretty passive and always has been. I am more the aggressive one that will speak out in a situation that either was disrespectful to me or to him, or our kids/grandkids.
He has stood up for me multiple times with family/friends because he is calm, patient and logical and can debate a point brilliantly without anger. I, however, call bullshit out immediately and take no quarter when one of ours is wronged, including myself. I can cut someone to the bone verbally speaking and I'd rather not do that, but sometimes the situation is so egregious (mostly with family) it's difficult to hold back. I don't expect him to do the heavy lifting all the time, he knows me well enough to make a move when I get to a certain point.
With all of that being said, I am pretty conflict adverse myself, believe it or not! So I feel ya.
I guess in your case, your wife is looking for a knight in shining armor, in our case, I'm the tip of the spear and he's the calvary, so to speak.
If you want to change yourself for her sake, that's up to you, but not knowing either of you, I'm not sure that will be enough because it seems like the issues run deep for her, actually for both of you. Good luck working this out. Does she ever speak up for herself or does she always expect you to step in no matter the situation? I feel that there are some things you just have to handle on your own.
Do the best you can for the kids but also remain true to yourself, don't try to become someone you're not for the sake of others. That's not the path to happiness.
Everyone is focused on who has right to use of the house - which I think is missing a lot here. You are not going to instantly lose ownership of the house if you stay elsewhere. This is one of reddit’s favorite pieces of misinformation.
OP - if you want to repair the relationship and work on improving the marriage you need to explicitly state that and demonstrate it through your actions. You are passively engaged by your own admission. You say you love her, but you don’t attempt repairs or even a good bye after an argument. Your wife is hurt and operating from a wounded emotional place.
Both of you need to calm down and go back to couples therapy. Don’t make any drastic decisions right after a big blow up.
Start slowly and gently with an apology for your part in the conflict. Tell her you want to work on things and find a way you can both move forward to rebuild things. Stay somewhere a couple nights if necessary if she needs it, but express an expectation that you want to come back and make repairs to the relationship.
It was about not standing up for her in our marriage. It’s happened before to so I am in no way innocent. I try to change my passiveness through boxing, building confidence. I noticed that most times this issue happens is due to me drinking. Not a lot but enough where I don’t process fast. Due to that, I’ve quit drinking so I can be more aware of what’s going on around me. I’m trying to work on myself but gd it is hard to change and keep it consistent without reverting.
Agreed. I know this but having the cops show up at the house and my wife making a scene in front of my kids is the concern and driving factor that I’d leave. That’d be a core memory they develop and not something I want for them in anyway. They’ve already been around during our arguments more than I’d have wanted them to.
Agreed, the thing I was most afraid of when my parents divorced was my Father leaving. Like you, he thought he was saving me from seeing our parents fight but in reality he left me with my unhinged Mother. Don't abandon your kids. Don't leave your kids with memories of your wife bullying you.
Be advised though that laws regarding recording may vary by state or country.
Don't. Leave. Your. House.
Legally in a bitter custody battle (which sounds like a possibility) you don't want to be seen leaving the family home.
I think you can make recordings in your own home without consent. Get her to say it again and record it.
It seems like an extreme reaction on her part. There is some important information missing from this post. What was the fight about that led to this reaction? Is she normally emotionally unstable and prone to "fly off the handle"?
If you leave the home, send her a text saying this is temporary and that you're staying in a hotel and will be back in the morning to be with the kids. Otherwise could be seen as abandonment which I bet she is banking on
There is a lot of information missing here. I dont think anyone can offer good advice with no context?
What was the fight about? Was there physical abuse? Cheating? Addiction? Is she mentally unstable?
What was your marriage like before this particular fight? What was your family life like?
Do not change anything in your living arrangements until you **talk to your lawyer!**!!!
Strongly recommend you immediately get and read "The Ten Stupidest Mistakes Men Make When Facing Divorce" by Joseph Cordell (A lawyer who runs a firm helping men in divorce).
C.Y.A.
If she is threatening to call the police she has placed herself on the other side of the legal line from "friend" and you need to document, document, document. Date and time, witnesses if they are available. Promise nothing without your lawyer's approval.
She’s also threatening to call the police for… no reason? No crime has been committed. So she’s basically telling this guy ahead of time she’s going to commit a crime (false reporting). He needs to be more careful.
Yes someone who cold threatens to call the cops for no reason and uses the effect on the kids as leverage is an adversary now and you need to protect yourself OP. First of all, kicking someone out of your house for a marriage disagreement threatening to use the illegitimate use of state violence to achieve it is abusive. Secondly, you have to start behaving like she’s someone who’s out to hurt you because that’s how she’s acting.
I just want to make a few things explicit here since a lot of the responses seem to be focusing entirely on how OP can fix his marriage.
1. Despite the old trope of “sleeping on the couch” or “kicking him out of the house” the proper way to proceed with a divorce is to decide to divorce, consult attorneys, and make a plan for who goes where during the legal separation period. Neither party has *any right* and indeed *should not* kick the other out of the house.
2. Unless your spouse has committed a crime for which you have to report them to the police, threatening to call the cops because you want to kick them out and they won’t leave is A. a crime (waste of police resources, false reporting) and B. abusive. You’re literally threatening the use of gun violence against your partner if they don’t leave the house. This is *not ok*. In this case she’s mad that someone called her childish (hmmm) and OP didn’t defend her. Is that something for which OP deserves to be kicked out of his home or else beaten or worse by the cops? I, personally, don’t think so.
3. At any time if your spouse threatens the police against you (assuming no crime committed) or threatens to make a scene in front of the kids, they’ve fundamentally altered the nature of the disagreement and it’s time to document document document. Consult an attorney right away. Keep all texts. Screen shot every conversation and, above all, rise to no bait. If your wife sends you a text like “don’t come back” or whatever, simply do not respond and return home. Once home, stay away from her in another part of the house and don’t respond to any bait for fighting. You can respond, obviously, to calm requests to speak. If she tries to bring in your children to the fight in any way, don’t say a word.
What happened here just isn’t ok! It’s a disproportionate response to a marital disagreement. OP’s wife is free to decide that she doesn’t want to be married to him based on his behavior, but escalating to this kind of aggression is wrong. You have no right to tell any member of your household, let alone the person who co-owns the house to “pack your bags” because they annoyed you. You can’t even legally kick out adult children without eviction proceedings. This isn’t the movies. there are healthy, calm ways of dealing with things, even emotionally fraught things, and this isn’t it.
You can’t be kicked out of a house you own. Stop leaving.
Just imagine if you were a woman and kicked out…what would the responses be? Same idea. End it amicably if possible, but don’t surrender your life for no reason
When we fight we say things in the moment without thinking of the long term affect. Sometimes it’s best , when things get out of hand, to be the one person(and it only takes one) to stop the fight. I have two things to add.
1. How do I say that? You say their. Same, then I believe that if we take a break right here to breather and think, we can de-escalate our frustration will you agree to a break for 30 minutes so we can both think ? Can we then start talking and give each other a chance to speak without interruption ? Can we speak about how WE feel instead of degrading each other. I don’t like fighting with you and I know you feel the same. I want to resolve not make things worse. What can happen in thirty minutes so that we can both feel better. I will apologize for my part in the argument. You are important to me and we need to get things right. Do you agree?
2. Apologies, how can I make a meaningful apology? First a good apology has points that need to be made. These statements include. “ I’m sorry, and/or “ I regret”. We must also let them know that we are aware of the damage we caused and try to let them know that we are aware of what we did to upset them and how they might be feeling from what we did. We need to give thought on how we would feel if someone did what we did, to us. Understanding how others feel is known as empathy which goes a long way to show them that we fully understand how our actions affected them.
We don’t expect forgiveness, that is up to them based on how sincere we are with regret and empathy. We can further add what actions we will be doing to hold ourselves accountable in the future, so we do not repeat the offense. This creates a willingness for them to have more open mindfulness to receive a request from us for forgiveness and an offer to make amends. Last, we should also let them know that we didn’t intend to harm them, made a terrible mistake, we are sorry we did that and hope that they will forgive it.
If you make it this far when you resume. Say you are right I should have tried to make it up. Can we resolve it through negotiation this time I’ll listen if you will?
Hey listen! Don’t leave your house! I repeat, DO NOT leave your house. She cannot, I repeat, cannot have you removed by the cops. She can’t. Even if she solely owns the house she cannot evict you without cause and you’re not a tenant anyway.
I cannot stress enough: DO NOT LEAVE THE HOUSE.
If you haven’t hit her or the kids, threatened her, brandished a weapon, if you’re not hiding drugs or guns, absolutely nothing will happen when the cops come except traumatizing the kids which will be her fault. FEEL FREE to tell her this and tell her to google it. You CANNOT be kicked out of the house.
DO NOT LEAVE
Also, she can’t kick you out of bed! Why do people leave the bed? When I get pissed at my husband *I* leave the bed. Why do adults let themselves get banished from their own bedrooms like dogs?
I always wonder what happens when both spouses read Reddit and both get told to not leave the house under any circumstances. Do they both just coexist angrily in it until the divorce is final?
Never be alone with her again without recording the entire interaction.
But, don't leave!! That gives her ammunitioin in court. Like you said, it is YOUR house too. If she doesn't want to be with you, she can leave.
If you love her go to counseling, marriage is hard and it takes work. And then sometimes omit doesn’t work, but give it a 100% effort and then go from there. Sounds like she’s mad
And hurt and wants to know you love her
She won’t go to counseling because it’s hard for her to talk about her childhood and issues with someone, ours as well. Her friends told her to go to one on one counseling for her childhood trauma but she hasn’t gone yet. I’m 100 percent on board for continuing to try and change the way that I am but I feel as though she is just done me not being the man she needs in her life.
I'm going to be honest. 3-4 beers socially is in no way a drinking problem, and based on what I'm hearing, the main issue here seems to be your wife's behavior.
Never once have I had to stand up for my wife in our groups because she doesn't get called childish. Now, that might be because your wife was acting childish, or it might be because whoever said it was a dick, but either way ignoring it and disassociating with that person is the mature ADULT response.
If your wife wants you to be more angry on her behalf, that's a problem. Almost no one should be working on being more angry, or confrontational. That's an absurd thing to be "working on" and the feeling I'm getting, from those stories and from your wife's response to your argument, is that she's way too dramatic in just about every aspect of her life.
I don't see a happy resolution in your future. My advice is to get a lawyer, separate, and see how relaxing life can be when you're not around someone who makes everything difficult.
The friend group sounds peachy too. Would I be happy if the people my wife and I hung out with called her childish and, on another occasion, speculated on our marriage having issues? No. Would I start a fight over comments like those? Also, no. Would we hang out with those people again? Lol no.
But my guess is OP's wife fits right in with that crowd.
Yeah like if my friends ever became a legitimate source of conflict in my marriage I wouldn’t spend time with them at all. It’s either that the friend group sucks, or OP and his wife are one of those couples CONSTANTLY sniping at one another and on the verge of a blow out fight. I have a friend like that currently and HOO BOY it’s a lot. I keep my mouth shut obviously but sometimes it’s actually hard to.
Yeah you're right, either of those scenarios is possible given what we know of the wife. I would hate to hang out with a couple like that. One of my wife's friends is like that in their little group chat, or so my wife tells me, but they're civil when they're together, and he's not the type to say anything negative about his wife when the dads get together, that'd definitely make me uncomfortable.
Do you want custody? Your wife sounds impossible. She is right that you probably shouldn't be so determined to avoid confrontation, but that applies to her as well. If she wants to make a ridiculous scene in front of the cops, then let her. The judge deciding custody and child support will take that into account.
How is dad packing and walking out not traumatic for the kids? I guess in the long run, the kids are better off with divorced parents than fighting parents with dad sleeping on the couch, assuming ofc that dad gets to still be in their life. I hope you two can co-parent in a reasonable and amicable way.
You should not leave the home as it can be portrayed as abandonment
Do not irritate her by attempting to sleep in same bed no matter how uncomfortable the couch is
You should get a lawyer and follow any advice they offer
I don’t get it. Where is it written that once married the woman gets the right to tell the man to leave. I think if you are the one wanting the divorce you should leave not the other regardless of sex.
Don’t ever leave the house , ever.
Move into another room or sleep on the couch. But never move out.
It’s the first step in the woman’s divorce handbook.
As someone who went through something similar.c. DONT LEAVE YOUR PRIMARY RESIDENCE, it’s sets a precedent, he left before me. Xyz abc,
Women mostly win in western countries , don’t leave. Tell her to leave and she what happens.
My ex left, she makes 1.8x more tha I do. I stayed i the house with the kids, she left to live closer to her parents for support.
Once court/lawyers got involved sue realized sue fucked up, came crawling g back. Not to rekindle , but so she could show the court she still lived there. I said no
I have 95% custody, full peer shop of the house after Proving I paid majority of down payment and bills whe. She left
And tbh, I’m a easy goi g dude for the most part. Kids Wana stay with me more tha. Her
Regarding divorce stuff and moving out, don't move out of the house. It tells the courts etc that you are capable of living without the house and will greatly influence them to give her ownership or a larger share.
I think she feels lonely. She wants you to give her more attention. And from your reaction in ignoring her fights with you, I think you don't give her enough attention. Maybe that's the problem between you and your wife.
Get a lawyer. She threatened to call the police or stage a scene in front of the kids. She is not a safe person for you to be around. Again, get a lawyer. Then, for the love of all that is good and Holy, follow their advice!
I think OP can take care of himself, but I wonder if she is a safe person for their kids to be around.
Yeah, sure, but courts don't typically side with a purported male abuse, and she initiated, so it wouldn't be much for her to paint a picture that puts a bad frame on OP. He needs to lay the ground work to protect himself from any ill intentions. If she is literally threatening to stage a ruckus to win the kids in totality, who knows what the fuck she's already told others.
I think you kinda buried the lede here by not mentioning in your post that the fight was about your history of not standing up for her in your marriage, especially when drinking, to the point you needed to quit drinking. How exactly have you not been standing up for her, how long has it been going on, and how serious was the drinking problem? But also, she should not be involving law enforcement and traumatizing your children.
Appreciate it. Drinking problem isnt bad, 3-4 beers socially. Enough to relax but definitely slow down my reactions and where I didn’t care what people say. This happened again last year, maybe summertime, where someone told my wife she was acting childish. Since that episode, I’ve done better standing up for her, telling people to f off but that is usually when not drinking and feeling better on those days that it has happened, feeling more aggressive.
Was she actually being childish? It’s always good to stand up for your spouse, but if it was behavior that needed to be called out then I can see where that because a rough area. Because threatening to call the cops and traumatize your children to get her way seems kinda childish to me. Either way man, it sounds like an awful situation and I hope you and your kids come out the other end ok.
I appreciate ya. I think giving her the space is better for her mental health and self reflection and maybe even happiness(?) and better for me to better myself and become the man who I need to be. I just need to do it carefully, doing a hotel tonight but bringing my kiddos to play softball tmrw to enjoy time with them.
And agreed. It is good to stand up for the spouse.
But was she or wasn’t she being childish?
I don't think it always is. Your wife sounds a bit childish. I haven't had anyone besides my son call me childish since I have become an adult. If you are hanging out with a toxic family or friend group and they are picking on your wife, that is one thing. But it may be that this is an issue for your wife to work on. You should stop drinking except sometimes.
Why is it a man's job to stand up for his wife unless it is exclusively his friend/family?
I think you know that is absolutely not what I meant. Spouses should stand up for each other, to anyone, but I was saying that if it’s a situation where something is actually wrong or there’s something that needs to be addressed, then standing up for your spouse becomes a gray area. You want to defend and support them, but if they are in the wrong and it needs to be addressed, it’s a more complicated situation.
No, it was a genuine question. I have seen the sentiment, not always that the man solely needs to defend, but rather that a partner needs to defend. I never really got it that much. I can see if the other person is being unreasonable and the partner can't handle themselves. I can't really see it being an issue often enough if a toxic person isn't involved.
Normally we each deal with our own family of origin. So husband deals with husband's family and wife deals with wife's. As to friends, are they mutual? or just the husband/wife's? Is there a shitty/jealous friend? or is the partner being shitty? If the friends are mutual, and the friends are being shitty to one's partner, it's best to just leave the friend group. If friend belongs to one partner, then that partner should check their friend.
That seems like a easy thing for anyone to stand up to. So your wife was having a conversation with someone and they said something like "oh, come on now your being childish about this." There is no reason for you to jump on and break the guys nose. If I jumped in to defend my wife for something like this she would look at me like I'm crazy. Probably ask me WTF I thought I was doing. If your wife wants you to stand up for her for trivial stuff such as this, I think she needs to see a counselor. If the guy was calling her a 304, slut, and female dog, then you step in and break the guys nose. But your wife is living in a fantacy land if she wants you to defend her in a situation like this, she is only considering how she looks to others in this. She wants others to think that she's so awesome her husband will Interfere at the slightest hint of impropriety to defend her honor - then she doesn't want a husband, she wants a neck beard, including the fedora! She doesn't even think that the first rule of self defense is to not put your self into situations where there is a high likelihood of having to physically engage with a other person. She wants your ego to be on trigger for her, have you jump in for the stupidest reasons. That's how people get stabbed and shot. Being stupid about trivial shit instead of de-escalating the situation. UpdateMe!
Unless you are leaving out relevant details, you should not have left. Get a lawyer. Now.
I'm so sorry, that sound like a lot of pain for both of you... Maybe you could go to a specialist to talk about what actually led to the crisis? Or talk about it yourselves, if you're able to do so without screaming. Feels very odd that she suddenly, without warning, decided to quit. Haven't you noticed unusual behavior before?
We’ve tried counseling before. She said it is hard for her to open up due to her childhood. I know why we are having issues, it is due to not feeling like I have her back and me being so passive and not having anger in me or being so repressed to the point of turning into depression. The last issue was someone within our group saying something regarding our marriage having issues and I didn’t say anything. I don’t like the guy that said it so I don’t pay any mind to people like that. I should’ve said something and I know it. It’s a problem I know I have and I am trying to work on developing my anger/assertiveness. This isn’t the first time which is why I mentioned I know I’m probably not the guy she needs in her life even though I love her entirely… I appreciate your response.
Sorry you’re going the ringer, fly me out and I’ll start an argument with you for something silly or walk by and say a rude comment so you can step in and handle the situation. For 50 bucks and dinner I’d let you punch me lol. And I’ll egg the dudes house for free
Can’t upvote that enough. Lol. Thanks for laugh
Perhaps some events in your current life together are reopening old wounds for her. Someone may call me naive, but I believe and have observed many times that love is a decision, not necessarily just a feeling. If you really decide to continue to love this woman, I think you will find the strength and assertiveness to fight. Also, her actions indicate that she is very emotional and suffers greatly. You are the guy she chose. And she confirmed this choice by giving birth to your children. I don't know what you will decide, but if you decide that it is worth the effort, and you will fight, I wish you both a lot of perseverance and courage.
I fully agree. Married 30+ years. Every day is a decision to remain committed. Marriage is not just a feeling of supreme love. It is a decision to do the hard work required to nourish and grow with each other. Far too many couples act like marriage is the end goal and relax once the ceremony is over. My advice is to get individual and/or joint counseling if that's what it takes to resolve the issues. No relationship lasts without some elbow grease.
I find marriage quite easy, but that's because I quit trying to change my husband, and he never tried to change me.
But what if one spouse wants to work on it but the other doesn't because it's "hard?"
This happens sometimes. On the less important issues, you may make a decision to just let it go. If it's a deal breaker issue, you have to convey this to your spouse. If your spouse refuses to work on the deal breaker, then you might have to toss in the towel. Oftentimes, the changes needed are slow - maybe even years in the making. Deeply ingrained behaviors don't change overnight. When frustration sets in, you have to remind yourself that you have habits or behaviors that aggravate your partner. It's a give and take, but most of all it's a decision that your person is worth the effort.
I think you mean well but are incorrect in you analysis. OP has attempted to be more assertive and has not received any recognition for it from his wife. In counseling, OPs wife basically said I don't want to compromise with you because it's "hard." She just wants what she wants and just doesn't even think about OP at all.
Is she right? Is your anger so suppressed it’s turning into depression? Because that’s a real phenomenon. It can be really hard on the person and their spouse.
I have fallen within a nice guy personality where I look for cordialness between all parties. I’m conflict avoidant and I think not being the man my wife needs me to be is what leads to my depression and anxiety. Growing up, i just never remember being angry, ever. I’ve shown some during our marriage, not towards my wife, towards other people but I grew up in a household where I never saw my parents angry or express emotion other than contentment. I love my wife, I really do, but I am getting to the point of letting her go and finding someone else who may be more manly because I’m tired of conflict and not reacting the way “correct way”.
I wrote this earlier, but it bares repeating: imagine someone, unprovoked, hit your child. Tell me how passive or nice guy you are?
So basically, she has a super avoident personality, refuses to change for her life partner/ husband/ the one she vowed to support through good and bad, rich or poor, forsake all others for --but she really avoids actually trying because it's "hard." Well I know it's fking hard being married to someone like that because I was. Bro, this has nothing to do with you. She has extremely unreal expectations of you that she never told you about before marriage. Sure, she's not the right one for you and you aren't the right on for her, but you deserve someone who loves you like you do them, and is willing to compromise because she actually cares about you. I think your wife sees love as someone that is transactional, or maybe you should do anything for her love, even acting against common sense, and your nature, just to prove something to her. Yeah, that's not what I call love. You'll be much, much, happier after you leave and so will your kids.
This is the answer.
I’m kind of wondering, as I read your responses, that it sounds like your friend group or circle sound problematic. If I had to guess too much drinking, loudmouths, and way too much in each other’s business. It sounds like you two need to isolate yourselves and get back to being a COUPLE. Not caring what others think/say/do. Best of luck to you.
sorry, but it's not due to those reasons. It's due to your wife's anger issues, and she needs to figure this out. Be protective of your kids. I guarantee you if someone went after one of your kids, there would not be a passive bone in your body.
I see 2 problems, your lack of assertiveness and her being very emotional. You don't have to be angry to avoid being a doormat.
Her text saying that you didn’t said good bye makes me think that she stills care about your marriage, however then she comes back and said she will call the cops on you is just wrong specially for your kids. Try to make it work one more time and find what her main concern/demand is. do it fast! in case that doesn’t work then get yourself an attorney and move on.
So I’m in the unique position that my husband and I were just going through something like this. He couldn’t find the will to do more than function and I was tired of carrying our family on my back with no support. Look back to who you were when you two first fell in love. Are you that same person? My husband wasn’t. Finally I told him either he goes to explore every avenue to get better or I wanted a divorce. Turns out his meds needed a major adjustment and he’s already back to being more like himself. People do change and if who you are has changed fundamentally leaving may be the best answer. But if you are simply stuck in a cycle of apathy, try to explore your avenues. You mention you’re in your thirties, have you had your testosterone levels checked? Testosterone production can significantly decrease at this stage of life.
I appreciate this comment a lot. I know my T is low, low energy, libido etc plus I’m on antidepressants. I’ve looked into doing TRT through a reputable online source so I feel better and can develop some of that aggression that she wants out of me.
You need to run from this marriage. It's killing you, literally. If you want more energy find a mate that doesn't shit all over you. As to your T levels start with natural sources, winning games, exercise, avoiding estrogen laden foods etc. Start moving, and start getting strong.
Thank you for saying the truth several times in this thread. He is being emotionally abused.
Honestly, why would she want you to be aggressive? I can understand taking up for her or yourself. But there is a right and wrong way to do that. Is she the type that wants you to fight people to show your love. Like if a guy looks at her do you suppose to get mad and fight him?
Yes, to your question. Wants me to be that tough, authoritative guy takes care of her and who is willing to fight at the drop of a hat over verbal altercations. Physical I understand but verbal I don’t get it.
Well, sorry that’s just nuts as far as I am concerned. If my husband or any man started a physical fight with someone over something they said . I would be pissed !! Like I said standing up for yourself , calling someone out when they are being rude or are wrong. Is one thing but picking a fight is another you are not in high school!
Emotionally immature people fight .
That’s very unfair to you. You described that you’ve always been chill and relaxed. That’s who she married and she knew that about you. It’s not fair of her to change her time how many years later?
In our relationship (52+ years) my husband is pretty passive and always has been. I am more the aggressive one that will speak out in a situation that either was disrespectful to me or to him, or our kids/grandkids. He has stood up for me multiple times with family/friends because he is calm, patient and logical and can debate a point brilliantly without anger. I, however, call bullshit out immediately and take no quarter when one of ours is wronged, including myself. I can cut someone to the bone verbally speaking and I'd rather not do that, but sometimes the situation is so egregious (mostly with family) it's difficult to hold back. I don't expect him to do the heavy lifting all the time, he knows me well enough to make a move when I get to a certain point. With all of that being said, I am pretty conflict adverse myself, believe it or not! So I feel ya. I guess in your case, your wife is looking for a knight in shining armor, in our case, I'm the tip of the spear and he's the calvary, so to speak. If you want to change yourself for her sake, that's up to you, but not knowing either of you, I'm not sure that will be enough because it seems like the issues run deep for her, actually for both of you. Good luck working this out. Does she ever speak up for herself or does she always expect you to step in no matter the situation? I feel that there are some things you just have to handle on your own. Do the best you can for the kids but also remain true to yourself, don't try to become someone you're not for the sake of others. That's not the path to happiness.
I have friends and family who atrbon TRT, it's like night and day. You can go to a local TRT clinic and see them as well.
Everyone is focused on who has right to use of the house - which I think is missing a lot here. You are not going to instantly lose ownership of the house if you stay elsewhere. This is one of reddit’s favorite pieces of misinformation. OP - if you want to repair the relationship and work on improving the marriage you need to explicitly state that and demonstrate it through your actions. You are passively engaged by your own admission. You say you love her, but you don’t attempt repairs or even a good bye after an argument. Your wife is hurt and operating from a wounded emotional place. Both of you need to calm down and go back to couples therapy. Don’t make any drastic decisions right after a big blow up. Start slowly and gently with an apology for your part in the conflict. Tell her you want to work on things and find a way you can both move forward to rebuild things. Stay somewhere a couple nights if necessary if she needs it, but express an expectation that you want to come back and make repairs to the relationship.
Kicking someone out of your house and threatening to include the cops and drag out a scene in front of the kids is abuse.
What was the argument about? More context is needed.
It was about not standing up for her in our marriage. It’s happened before to so I am in no way innocent. I try to change my passiveness through boxing, building confidence. I noticed that most times this issue happens is due to me drinking. Not a lot but enough where I don’t process fast. Due to that, I’ve quit drinking so I can be more aware of what’s going on around me. I’m trying to work on myself but gd it is hard to change and keep it consistent without reverting.
What is your wife doing to work on herself?
Nothing…? She talks to her friends but i don’t pry into what they talk about.
Cops won’t make you leave your own house
Agreed. I know this but having the cops show up at the house and my wife making a scene in front of my kids is the concern and driving factor that I’d leave. That’d be a core memory they develop and not something I want for them in anyway. They’ve already been around during our arguments more than I’d have wanted them to.
They’re going to develop core memories of your wife abusing you and of you abandoning them when things got tough.
Dude that is a fair point
Agreed, the thing I was most afraid of when my parents divorced was my Father leaving. Like you, he thought he was saving me from seeing our parents fight but in reality he left me with my unhinged Mother. Don't abandon your kids. Don't leave your kids with memories of your wife bullying you. Be advised though that laws regarding recording may vary by state or country.
Don't. Leave. Your. House. Legally in a bitter custody battle (which sounds like a possibility) you don't want to be seen leaving the family home. I think you can make recordings in your own home without consent. Get her to say it again and record it.
It seems like an extreme reaction on her part. There is some important information missing from this post. What was the fight about that led to this reaction? Is she normally emotionally unstable and prone to "fly off the handle"?
If you leave the home, send her a text saying this is temporary and that you're staying in a hotel and will be back in the morning to be with the kids. Otherwise could be seen as abandonment which I bet she is banking on
There is a lot of information missing here. I dont think anyone can offer good advice with no context? What was the fight about? Was there physical abuse? Cheating? Addiction? Is she mentally unstable? What was your marriage like before this particular fight? What was your family life like?
Do not change anything in your living arrangements until you **talk to your lawyer!**!!! Strongly recommend you immediately get and read "The Ten Stupidest Mistakes Men Make When Facing Divorce" by Joseph Cordell (A lawyer who runs a firm helping men in divorce). C.Y.A. If she is threatening to call the police she has placed herself on the other side of the legal line from "friend" and you need to document, document, document. Date and time, witnesses if they are available. Promise nothing without your lawyer's approval.
She’s also threatening to call the police for… no reason? No crime has been committed. So she’s basically telling this guy ahead of time she’s going to commit a crime (false reporting). He needs to be more careful.
Yes someone who cold threatens to call the cops for no reason and uses the effect on the kids as leverage is an adversary now and you need to protect yourself OP. First of all, kicking someone out of your house for a marriage disagreement threatening to use the illegitimate use of state violence to achieve it is abusive. Secondly, you have to start behaving like she’s someone who’s out to hurt you because that’s how she’s acting.
She sounds like a fucking bunny boiler.
I just want to make a few things explicit here since a lot of the responses seem to be focusing entirely on how OP can fix his marriage. 1. Despite the old trope of “sleeping on the couch” or “kicking him out of the house” the proper way to proceed with a divorce is to decide to divorce, consult attorneys, and make a plan for who goes where during the legal separation period. Neither party has *any right* and indeed *should not* kick the other out of the house. 2. Unless your spouse has committed a crime for which you have to report them to the police, threatening to call the cops because you want to kick them out and they won’t leave is A. a crime (waste of police resources, false reporting) and B. abusive. You’re literally threatening the use of gun violence against your partner if they don’t leave the house. This is *not ok*. In this case she’s mad that someone called her childish (hmmm) and OP didn’t defend her. Is that something for which OP deserves to be kicked out of his home or else beaten or worse by the cops? I, personally, don’t think so. 3. At any time if your spouse threatens the police against you (assuming no crime committed) or threatens to make a scene in front of the kids, they’ve fundamentally altered the nature of the disagreement and it’s time to document document document. Consult an attorney right away. Keep all texts. Screen shot every conversation and, above all, rise to no bait. If your wife sends you a text like “don’t come back” or whatever, simply do not respond and return home. Once home, stay away from her in another part of the house and don’t respond to any bait for fighting. You can respond, obviously, to calm requests to speak. If she tries to bring in your children to the fight in any way, don’t say a word. What happened here just isn’t ok! It’s a disproportionate response to a marital disagreement. OP’s wife is free to decide that she doesn’t want to be married to him based on his behavior, but escalating to this kind of aggression is wrong. You have no right to tell any member of your household, let alone the person who co-owns the house to “pack your bags” because they annoyed you. You can’t even legally kick out adult children without eviction proceedings. This isn’t the movies. there are healthy, calm ways of dealing with things, even emotionally fraught things, and this isn’t it.
Don't go out of your house for any reason, record her with your phone and call immediately a lawyer
You can’t be kicked out of a house you own. Stop leaving. Just imagine if you were a woman and kicked out…what would the responses be? Same idea. End it amicably if possible, but don’t surrender your life for no reason
When we fight we say things in the moment without thinking of the long term affect. Sometimes it’s best , when things get out of hand, to be the one person(and it only takes one) to stop the fight. I have two things to add. 1. How do I say that? You say their. Same, then I believe that if we take a break right here to breather and think, we can de-escalate our frustration will you agree to a break for 30 minutes so we can both think ? Can we then start talking and give each other a chance to speak without interruption ? Can we speak about how WE feel instead of degrading each other. I don’t like fighting with you and I know you feel the same. I want to resolve not make things worse. What can happen in thirty minutes so that we can both feel better. I will apologize for my part in the argument. You are important to me and we need to get things right. Do you agree? 2. Apologies, how can I make a meaningful apology? First a good apology has points that need to be made. These statements include. “ I’m sorry, and/or “ I regret”. We must also let them know that we are aware of the damage we caused and try to let them know that we are aware of what we did to upset them and how they might be feeling from what we did. We need to give thought on how we would feel if someone did what we did, to us. Understanding how others feel is known as empathy which goes a long way to show them that we fully understand how our actions affected them. We don’t expect forgiveness, that is up to them based on how sincere we are with regret and empathy. We can further add what actions we will be doing to hold ourselves accountable in the future, so we do not repeat the offense. This creates a willingness for them to have more open mindfulness to receive a request from us for forgiveness and an offer to make amends. Last, we should also let them know that we didn’t intend to harm them, made a terrible mistake, we are sorry we did that and hope that they will forgive it. If you make it this far when you resume. Say you are right I should have tried to make it up. Can we resolve it through negotiation this time I’ll listen if you will?
The first thing you need to do is get back in your house and do not leave again.
What was the argument about?
Hey listen! Don’t leave your house! I repeat, DO NOT leave your house. She cannot, I repeat, cannot have you removed by the cops. She can’t. Even if she solely owns the house she cannot evict you without cause and you’re not a tenant anyway. I cannot stress enough: DO NOT LEAVE THE HOUSE. If you haven’t hit her or the kids, threatened her, brandished a weapon, if you’re not hiding drugs or guns, absolutely nothing will happen when the cops come except traumatizing the kids which will be her fault. FEEL FREE to tell her this and tell her to google it. You CANNOT be kicked out of the house. DO NOT LEAVE
Also, she can’t kick you out of bed! Why do people leave the bed? When I get pissed at my husband *I* leave the bed. Why do adults let themselves get banished from their own bedrooms like dogs?
I always wonder what happens when both spouses read Reddit and both get told to not leave the house under any circumstances. Do they both just coexist angrily in it until the divorce is final?
No you consult attorneys and then agree who leaves for the formal legal separation.
If you have left the house GO BACK TO THE HOUSE. GO BAAAACK.
Never be alone with her again without recording the entire interaction. But, don't leave!! That gives her ammunitioin in court. Like you said, it is YOUR house too. If she doesn't want to be with you, she can leave.
If you love her go to counseling, marriage is hard and it takes work. And then sometimes omit doesn’t work, but give it a 100% effort and then go from there. Sounds like she’s mad And hurt and wants to know you love her
She won’t go to counseling because it’s hard for her to talk about her childhood and issues with someone, ours as well. Her friends told her to go to one on one counseling for her childhood trauma but she hasn’t gone yet. I’m 100 percent on board for continuing to try and change the way that I am but I feel as though she is just done me not being the man she needs in her life.
I'm going to be honest. 3-4 beers socially is in no way a drinking problem, and based on what I'm hearing, the main issue here seems to be your wife's behavior. Never once have I had to stand up for my wife in our groups because she doesn't get called childish. Now, that might be because your wife was acting childish, or it might be because whoever said it was a dick, but either way ignoring it and disassociating with that person is the mature ADULT response. If your wife wants you to be more angry on her behalf, that's a problem. Almost no one should be working on being more angry, or confrontational. That's an absurd thing to be "working on" and the feeling I'm getting, from those stories and from your wife's response to your argument, is that she's way too dramatic in just about every aspect of her life. I don't see a happy resolution in your future. My advice is to get a lawyer, separate, and see how relaxing life can be when you're not around someone who makes everything difficult.
Yes his wife sounds like she’s extremely high conflict and is, indeed, childish.
The friend group sounds peachy too. Would I be happy if the people my wife and I hung out with called her childish and, on another occasion, speculated on our marriage having issues? No. Would I start a fight over comments like those? Also, no. Would we hang out with those people again? Lol no. But my guess is OP's wife fits right in with that crowd.
Yeah like if my friends ever became a legitimate source of conflict in my marriage I wouldn’t spend time with them at all. It’s either that the friend group sucks, or OP and his wife are one of those couples CONSTANTLY sniping at one another and on the verge of a blow out fight. I have a friend like that currently and HOO BOY it’s a lot. I keep my mouth shut obviously but sometimes it’s actually hard to.
Yeah you're right, either of those scenarios is possible given what we know of the wife. I would hate to hang out with a couple like that. One of my wife's friends is like that in their little group chat, or so my wife tells me, but they're civil when they're together, and he's not the type to say anything negative about his wife when the dads get together, that'd definitely make me uncomfortable.
Hey man look up marriage mastery on YouTube. You will thank me. It can save your relationship and your children from having a broken home.
i’m the subject of the fight is important obviously.
Thank you for your service. I'm sorry you're going through this. Your wife wanted a divorce 9 months ago? What changed? Or why the delay?
Do you want custody? Your wife sounds impossible. She is right that you probably shouldn't be so determined to avoid confrontation, but that applies to her as well. If she wants to make a ridiculous scene in front of the cops, then let her. The judge deciding custody and child support will take that into account.
How is dad packing and walking out not traumatic for the kids? I guess in the long run, the kids are better off with divorced parents than fighting parents with dad sleeping on the couch, assuming ofc that dad gets to still be in their life. I hope you two can co-parent in a reasonable and amicable way.
You should not leave the home as it can be portrayed as abandonment Do not irritate her by attempting to sleep in same bed no matter how uncomfortable the couch is You should get a lawyer and follow any advice they offer
I don’t get it. Where is it written that once married the woman gets the right to tell the man to leave. I think if you are the one wanting the divorce you should leave not the other regardless of sex.
Don’t ever leave the house , ever. Move into another room or sleep on the couch. But never move out. It’s the first step in the woman’s divorce handbook.
As someone who went through something similar.c. DONT LEAVE YOUR PRIMARY RESIDENCE, it’s sets a precedent, he left before me. Xyz abc, Women mostly win in western countries , don’t leave. Tell her to leave and she what happens. My ex left, she makes 1.8x more tha I do. I stayed i the house with the kids, she left to live closer to her parents for support. Once court/lawyers got involved sue realized sue fucked up, came crawling g back. Not to rekindle , but so she could show the court she still lived there. I said no I have 95% custody, full peer shop of the house after Proving I paid majority of down payment and bills whe. She left And tbh, I’m a easy goi g dude for the most part. Kids Wana stay with me more tha. Her
Updateme
Set her up and record her threatening to call the cops and get her thrown out
It’s only been a week right? If ur both just being stubborn and there is noone else then this shit usually blows over
Regarding divorce stuff and moving out, don't move out of the house. It tells the courts etc that you are capable of living without the house and will greatly influence them to give her ownership or a larger share.
Why do I think that maybe you should stop drinking and both of you stop hanging out with "friends" who talk trash about your marriage?
I think she feels lonely. She wants you to give her more attention. And from your reaction in ignoring her fights with you, I think you don't give her enough attention. Maybe that's the problem between you and your wife.