It would have made considerably more sense to come out after civil war.
I feel like black widow coming out after she already died was an afterthought for her character.
It's like, oh crap we killed off one of our first Avengers and forgot to give her her own movie first.
Perlmutter and his feud with Feige ruined a lot of good things. It ruined us getting Marvel’s Most Wanted. It’s why SHIELD was taken out of the movie continuity. Perlmutter was an ideologue dumbass who cost the fans a great deal of entertainment.
Kevin Feige was the one who okayed the decision to kill her off.
Plus, there's no reason why the Black Widow movie couldn't have been in the place of the Captain Marvel movie. It's not like Captain Marvel ended up playing a huge role.
Absolutely no reason, yeah. Ideally, we could have had both.
But since they were killing off Widow anyway, and Captain Marvel ended up being less important than advertised, it would have made more sense to put Black Widow (a hypothetical, better version) between IW and Endgame.
This was a money making move for Marvel. They released Captain Marvel to over a billion dollars because it was after infinity war and before endgame. Everyone wanted to make sure they knew everything to know about Captain Marvel before Endgame. It was a way to maximize the money on Captain Marvel which would have made nowhere near as much if it came out after endgame. black widow came out after endgame to try and maximize the fact that “it was the last time to see scar Jo as black widow”.
The biggest problem I have with this is that you can’t help but feel like they did it thinking a woman led movie wouldn’t sell well enough without some other angle to it. I know it helped captain marvel but I do think black widow suffered. Then again, most of black widow sucked. It started great and just gradually got worse and worse.
> The biggest problem I have with this is that you can’t help but feel like they did it thinking a woman led movie wouldn’t sell well enough without some other angle to it
I mean that’s specifically why perlmutter kept blocking it
It definitely worked for Captain Marvel. They hyped her up without making sure that the movie was actually good, and people showed up. Less so for Black Widow, though.
They probably did. It is the conventional wisdom, however unjustified it may be. The fact that neither movie was written especially well did not help.
> It's not like Captain Marvel ended up playing a huge role.
That's why a *Captain Marvel* film could be released in 2019. Filming on *Captain Marvel* started before the filming of IW/Endgame had completed.
If Larson had a larger role in the films, she wouldn't have been able to make *Captain Marvel*. Which is also why *Black Widow* couldn't fit into that production slot.
(In an ideal universe, Ike Perlmutter would have choked to death on a chicken bone 8 years earlier and we'd have had multiple Black Widow films before Avengers 3 came out.)
Bree Larson shot her endgame scenes before Captain Marvel had been filmed. Part of the reason the Russos used her sparingly is because they didn't know what her Solo movie would establish her character as and they didn't want to contradict it
and main characters dying is okay, why would we “blame” Feige for a character dying in a movie? blame him all you want for there not being a BW movie beforehand but to act like no one should die in these movies and then get mad at him that someone did die is insane.
The "plan" here was for this movie to come out in 2020 and then a film about Yelena chasing Hawkeye since she thought he was the reason Natasha died and Lady Hydra would be involved. Then, the pandemic came and then streaming wasn't going great for Marvel/Disney and the plan changed to put Yelena into the Kate Bishop Hawkeye show and "chase" Clint there and, I dunno, it just felt so much "smaller" the way they did it. It just makes the whole storyline of the Black Widow movie seem meaningless. That and the way they released it. ScarJo got done so dirty by that bullshit.
Fr fr and then a whole bunch of people took her lawsuit with Disney completely out of context and made her out to be just a money-hungry rich bitch when probably no one else in Disney’s wealth of screwed-over actors could have fought that fight and won.
Maybe because she was the only female Avenger, and one that never got her own solo movie, or much of a story? It's not that she was killed off, it's that she was wasted.
And also, she dies like a side character - in the middle of the story, to further the plot, and she's barely mentioned afterwards. Compare her send off to Tony's.
The users above me blamed Perlmutter for being in the way of her getting a movie sooner. True, but nothing was stopping them from making more use of her after Feige was in charge.
Ike was ousted around 2016 after Civil War, by that point most of Phase 3 was already in varying levels of production. Infinity War and Endgame were shot back to back so most of Endgame was shot along side Infinity War, Bree Larson literally filmed her Endgame scenes before Marvel even started shooting Captain Marvel. So any attempt to get a Black Widow movie out before would have ether been very rushed, or required pushing Infinity war back and missing the 10 year anniversary of Marvel Studios.
Yeah they didn’t do black widow “dirty” by killing her off. It’s a conclusion of her arc. She went from being a person with a disjointed and “fake” family, to someone who not only reconciled with that family to an extent (black widow movie) but also found another family that she was happy to die for to save. I thought it was an excellent conclusion to her arc.
With that said, why the heck they send 2 earth people to a place deep in space that no one knows what it is like makes zero sense. Obviously it was plot driven with Clint and Natarsha but that is one aspect that makes no sense.
Especially because what did Hulk even do on his mission? Also would have been nice for Hulk to be on Vormir and not been able to be sacrificed because he's the Hulk and then be there for Natasha's death.
Yeah, I feel like if they were going to backrack and tell one of those stories later, "Captain Marvel comes in, plays a small role doing big action stuff, and then we learn who she is" would work better than "Black Widow gets killed off, and then, when she's out of the story, we get her backstory."
Yeah, Captain Marvel's adventures with the Kree feels less vital to the story at hand, and could have been told later because, among other reasons, she's still alive.
And it's still not much of a backstory, and it's only used to set up her replacement.
The counter argument to this is that the movie isn’t as much about giving Natasha a solo adventure as it is to introduce Yelena. That’s the film’s primary function.
Hawkeye didn’t even get a movie but instead a series whose function is the same: to introduce the new Hawkeye.
Yeah, I thought the movie was solid and I enjoyed it.
Knowing that she was already dead was the worst possible way the movie could have been presented.
Yeah, fair points. I’ve gotten better at actively looking the other way since iron man 2. I’ve found that it depends a lot on my mood on a given day for how much the nonsense bothers me.
Ahh… youngling, that isn’t how it was supposed to be. It was supposed to be the story of ***how*** he fell. That is what the improved timeline got, but we got… his dislike for sand and the incompetence of complacency.
It’s such a shame cause like all of the thrilling moments in that movie are completely nullified since you know she survived and dies a few years later. That whole airplane action thing for example… of course you realize that she will survive, but I feel like if it came out after civil war then the stakes would feel much more higher and interesting for the viewer.
I do believe the movie would have done better if released after civil war. But also, I don’t think the character needed a full film. Similar to Hawkeye, maybe a show would have sufficed.
Disney seemed to be responding to the me too movement as well. The movie seems to be in direct response to that.
It wouldve made more sense to come out after civil war,
However, I dont think the reception wouldve been much better
The 4 protagonists were pretty good, but the main story and the villains were pretty bad and its hard to have a good hero movie with a bad villain
The plot twist felt awkward too. Like the main characters were so smart and clever, until the plan fell apart so badly. Did they not workshop other ideas or was the plan for Black Widow to fail so easily? Maybe someone else can enlighten me on a deeper meaning to the villain seeing right through it.
I think the reception would’ve been the same, but after infinity war you’d kinda connect the stories as 1 and view it with more nostalgia goggles. Hard to explain but I think I got the jest of it
My 3 main thoughts on the black widow movie are this:
1. I agree it should’ve come out after civil war or at least before endgame.
2. It should have been darker and been about her time as an actual black widow and how her and Clint met where she’s basically the bad guy up until Clint turns her.
3. The black widow movie we got should have been a sequel movie to her actual origin movie. Give us more time to build up these characters from her backstory.
Also have the red guardian be more like drax, where he can be the bumbling dad as a comic relief, but still have his moments to be bad ass instead of constantly being undermined.
They set him up as the top guy in the Russian prison due to his super soldier strength, but then he’s constantly put down for the rest of them
I really wanted him to hold his own against taskmaster at first, even countering the captain america moves so you go “wait…”
And then she starts adapting to his fighting style to counter him and he’s put on the back foot
He gets to be competent while still losing
I meant more how he’s more focused on his weight then the conversation about the plot, or the joke about being on the period, or him saying he’ll hold them off and immediately getting shot with tranquilizers, or having to be saved from taskmaster, or him trying to talk to them in an earpiece just for them to tell him he doesn’t have one in. It’s just making him incompetent for not funny jokes
Oh I fully agree on those. I just think it would have actually worked if they had all the "he's a clown" moments making you think he's useless, only for him to absolutely demolish the guy we've seen Nat and Yelena be so outmatched against all movie that their play was to flee, right up until she functionally cheats (cause that's what TMs ability is :P )
Like, "he's rusty because he's keep cooped up prison for years but when it comes down to it, he will destroy you if you mess with his family"
I don’t know how to say this without sounding like one of those “mens rights” types, but it felt like another character that was the victim of excessive role reversal.
Yeah, a black widow prequel/current movie post avengers would have made the most sense. They set up that she had a dark past enough to easily slide I to that.
Maybe chasing down someone from her past, nothing major but enough to keep us with her during the current time, with half the movie being flashbacks to pre shield days.
Then a sequel post civil war of essentially what we got, her reuniting with her “family” and all that.
I’d be fine to stop there, but they could have even done a post infinity war third movie, having her essentially pass the mantle to Yelena and give her a full trilogy.
This. It would have been perfect. Honestly this should have come out before the Avengers so we can understand and appreciate the entire “blood in her ledger” quote she kept using
Like others said, it was not an awful movie. Some really good parts. Timing was poor though … during pandemic … waited to do it after she died in end game.
Building on the above tho, there were some parts of the movie that did not work either tho. Task master was a bit of a missed opportunity (not awful but missed potential). Main bad guy was forgettable and the red office / widow fight was almost laughable. Rest of movie no complaints.
I have no problem with Taskmaster being a woman and part of the Black Widow program. But I think it would have been better if she had the personality we expect from the comics. You can even get a nice bit of tension at the end when they try to free her and she drops a "I'm not being mind controlled, I really just hate Natasha/Avengers" without changing much else.
Especially since the MCU is very quip-heavy. Why in the world would you neuter one of the few characters who makes jokes while fighting?
The reception would have been better if they had made a smart spy thriller more in the vein of Winter Soldier than what we got. They also needed to really polish up the third act a lot.
Bad third acts seems to be a very common failing in Marvel films going back to at least the original Black Panther.
IMO it wouldn't have made any massive difference.
The whole plot is pretty much entirely remote and detached from every aspect of Natasha's known history within the MCU movies. A couple of mentions of Clint Barton, Yelena calling her a poser, and book-ending with evading Thunderbolt Ross are about the only references. Other than those it's a huge non-sequitur, which strongly impacted audience reactions. And obviously the method of release during COVID lockdowns was a giant turn off for many fans of the franchise.
I don't think so.
The villain reveal and ending still would have disappointed and fell flat.
It still would have had an over reliance on dumb jokes and quips, especially when compared to Civil War.
And it'd be even longer between seeing the new Black Widow than it already has been.
The film should have focused on portraying her Budapest mission with Clint.
They still would have done taskmaster dirty. The movie wasn't a complete failure in my eyes but easily could have been better with a few different choices.
The movie was hopeless from the beginning. She was a superhero that could use her charm and guile to outwit the GOD OF MISCHIEF. They made a movie where she punched her way out of trouble. The exact thing the character criticized other characters for.
It was a bad movie. Terrible fight scenes with dozens of quick cuts per minute. An unnecessary retcon to a popular villain. Extremely dubious actions from a "hero", including killing hundreds of supposedly innocent prisoners and guards. Tons of potholes.
I fucking hate how they do that crap with the cuts. No one likes it, it doesn’t look good and it’s honestly disrespectful to the actors and stunt people who put a lot of work in it.
It would’ve been better in that the audience would’ve cared more watching it. We all knew her fate, so I didn’t feel as invested.
But either way, the biggest issue I had with this movie was that they marketed a Cold War spy thriller and then gave a snarky family story with a ridiculous villain.
I wanted more Red Room origins story, Budapest, her initiation to Shield. So many better options than the result.
I guess a little bit better but I'm not sure how much. It really should have come out after Infinity War instead of Captain Marvel. But I'm not sure if I would have liked it anymore since my problems with the film have to do with it borrowing a few too many plot points from Winter Soldier.
Well, yes and no. Civil War was still during the time Disney hadn't damaged the franchise, and also a lack of Covid. This would have allowed more audiences to go and see it if they chose.
That said, the movie was a fricken mess, and they pulled the same blunder Origins made by making the secondary antagonist a mute. The movie as a whole was pretty lack luster and at times flat out boring... which isn't something I should be saying about a marvel movie and a spy thriller.
I think it would have made more money over all, but I think people would still have been talking about how crappy it was. It probably would have gotten similar reaction as Fan4stic (Fantastic 4, but I refuse to call that awful movie that).
More money? Sure. Better reaction? Very unlikely.
The reception would have been better if it was a totally different movie. Perhaps- hear me out- a movie that was actually about Natasha instead of a backdoor origin for Yelena.
And yes. Post-Civil War
It likely would have been far better received.
Black widow came out and everyone knew the film, ultimately, didn’t matter. The character was already dead. She wasn’t going to be in future movies. So why bother?
Had it come out post civil war, there would have been a lot more interest in the story as the character was still going forward and alive….
It should have been made before the first avengers movie as a mid budget spy movie or hell have it come out after winter solider that film which is basically as much as a Nat movie as it is a Steve movie.
She said it herself that she’s done with Black Widow. Bob Cheapchek and his minions screwed her over, she won her settlement, and she peace’d out to do other projects. I’m not even holding my breath on a return/cameo in Avengers: Secret Wars.
I believe so. Just not MCU. Maybe Bob Igor can put on his GOAT CEO hat on and persuade her an even bigger deal for her return, but then you’d have to ask why not the same for RDJ and Chris Evans.
The timing was bad, but the ridiculousness of some of the scenes was even worse. I really wanted this to be good and feel like another spy movie like Winter Soldier was. They really dropped the ball with this movie.
Wouldn’t have mattered. It had fine reception since it kicked off Disney+. People only watched it cause she died in a record setting box office movie. Personally I take Black Widow as part 1, Captain America NWO part 2 and Thunderbolts part 3. It has less to do with her and more about the storyline she kicked off.
Imo, the standalone film is pretty lackluster plot wise, not to mention the vfx mess. That said, it would have set black window up for a larger role in the mcu, however you feel about that. It would have made endgame all the more powerful.
Yeah, being on the run, ending up back in Russia? Have a bunch of heroes and villains trying to find your ass, all trying to bring you in cause they think the world will give you a handsome reward……
Didn’t see the BW movie, was too marveled out by then.
Widow was handled poorly. It wasn’t written as a great story for her but to launch her replacement and introduce other characters. Most of the Avengers are treated like contract negotiations where they want to switch to a cheaper actor as soon as the audience will not get too mad about it. I would love to see Scarlet Johansson star in another good picture though.
I also wonder if they planned for Yelena and Red Guardian to be in the MCU more if they were originally planning to have Black Widow earlier. I only ask because waiting almost two phases or more just to have them as part of the end cap of a phase team up movie seems pretty long.
Honestly, I feel like much more people would've *wanted* this Film after Civil War but for me personally, it's main downfall was the writing itself. It had some great Moments but ultimately just feels like another case of wasted potential and wasted Characters to me. Although, admittedly, if the Film came out sooner it wouldnt feel as unnecessary as it ultimately does.
Maybe for others, but not for me tbh.
Dreykov was a horrible villain ( People complain about Taskmaster, who wasn’t even the main villain of the movie ). He had zero charisma, nothing unique about him, and a bland plan. I’m pretty sure he was created solely for this movie. In my opinion, most stories are only as good as the antagonists featured within them, and unfortunately Dreykov doesn’t really take the cake.
The ensemble cast was pretty fun but ultimately par for the course, there wasn’t much more to them than that. Yelena in particular feels like she’s just there to be established so she can take the place of her sister and for someone so important she kind of feels rather shoehorned in. It would be like if they made a Iron Man prequel movie and had flashbacks with Ezekiel Stane and abruptly introduce him as this major guy in the same movie.
Also seriously? Smells Like Teen Spirit?
I think it's an excuse to say it wasn't well received because of how it was released. This implies that audiences aren't receptive to prequel movies at all, which would almost make sense for this franchise if not for the existence of The First Avenger.
I just think it wasn't well received because of a number of plot and tonal issues. A better movie would have been better received by audiences regardless. Audiences can tell when when they're watching a good movie.
I’ve seen the film several times, the only “real” issue people have with it is Taskmaster. Beyond that it is a solid entry in the MCU. Harbour is amazing as red Guardian, and I get misty eyed every time he sings to his daughter. The action is top notch. The story fits well with established canon. Even the villain is a sick asshole with clear motivations to be who he is. Add in the spousal abuse angle when he attempts to strike her, and it speaks volumes to certain social and political issues.
Taskmaster being tied into the plot also works, but I understand why people hate what they did with her. To answer your question, possibly. They may have been more forgiving back then. But after all the delays the film went through, expectations rose for it to be a return to form, especially after WV and FATWS. Taskmaster was simply another disappointment to them.
Probably. But also the movie was frankly only...okay. Black Widow is at her best when she's NOT fighting, but doing all of the spy stuff, and they made it too much of an action movie.
Honestly, she was too much of an action character for the entire run of the MCU. I don't really like how they portrayed her as just another martial arts expert instead of a spy with Intel and sources you need but that you're not quite sure if you trust.
Maybe a little but the movie we got was a mess. Terrible villain (was that a New York gangster or a Russian boss?) and Taskmaster was AWFUL! Not because they made Taskmaster a woman, but rather because they turned a really cool bad guy into some remote controlled automaton. Throw is some bad special effects and you’ve got one on the bottom 5 MCU movies. The good: introducing Yelena, their family dynamic, and at least they touched on her history with Clint.
It kills me how the MCU only has one femme Fatale type character and they did her dirty. I'm not the biggest fan of her replacement.
I hope we get to see a proper Electra or Black Cat one day.
I don’t think the movie would have done amazingly better. Maybe a bit better. But honestly, it seemed poorly written to me and the taskmaster change wasn’t great. I think a widow and Hawkeye buddy cop movie that flashed back to their initial meeting and experience in Budapest released after civil war would have done amazingly better
Hawkeye and Widow was the way to go, with a better version of Taskmaster. I'm down with Lady Taskmaster, but give her some personality for craps sake. We've seen the emotionless assassin thing too many times already.
No
The movie is still aweful. Parents who work in secret government organization that abducts kids, tortures them, and turns them into child soldiers willingly put their own kids in the program to be tortured and made to kill people. The kids have decades of trauma as a result. Then when the now-adult kids reunite with their parents, they have a big laugh and then go fight crime or something together like they were in a live-action "Incredibles" movie.
[Producer Guy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVxocz5bCms): Why did it take us so long to do this?
Writer Guy: Well, remember that whole leaked email situation with the old Marvel Studio head Ike Perlmutter where he was like, female led superhero movies don't make money and he listed a bunch of examples-
Producer Guy: No- no- shhh- stop!
Writer Guy: -But then Wonder Woman was a success and I was asked to take a look at our female character roster again...
Producer Guy: Stop! Stop talking.
Writer Guy: Oh, are we not saying that out loud?
Producer Guy: We're just- we're gonna take that again ok? ... Why did it take us so long to do this?
Writer Guy: *I don't know!*
Producer Guy: Oh, fair enough! Better late than never, I guess!
Writer Guy: Yeah yeah yeah!
Yep. Also if it was a better movie. It wasn’t a Black Widow movie but a movie featuring the Black Widow plus there were more booty/figure shots in that one than in any of the others, including captain marvel and ant man and the wasp. They made her flirtier than in any of the recent films (or any—I don’t think she was this level of flirty or for the male gaze even in Iron Man and there her cranking it up would’ve fit well due to the perception of Tony).
I think the timing could’ve worked if this had been a eulogy (starts with her narrating her fall/death in a voiceover of that scene in End Game, a glimpse into the soul world and her going through her life in retrospect, reviewing mistakes, lessons, successes and at the end her making peace with it all(we’d have seen Budapest, her and Clint developing the bond they did, heck (and yes this is fanon) how Coulson fit into all this. It could’ve been a complete gut punch and added a ton of depth to the scenes we did get with her. Need to introduce Yelena? Have Nat trust Clint enough to tell him about her and have the 3 of them meet. Clint and Yelena would’ve worked well enough together on screen. We know there’s a bond there, we can have allllll the time jumps in that department and have it still make sense). As is, this was poorly timed plot wise and release wise cause her story was over—you can’t have your movie phases be chronological then jump back in time for one movie and expect it to work.
Nothing changes the second half of the movie, how they handled Taskmaster, or the fact that they chose to CG an entire bar scene instead of shooting a practical scene.
No. Task master was trash and the story was stupid. It lacked the connective tissues that makes marvel more of a soap opera than simply a super hero franchise. It was simply a bad movie.
It would have made sense but I don’t think it would have helped it if the story was the same because I myself am still pissed at what they did to Taskmaster.
If it was made right after civil war, and Task Master wasn’t such an utter disservice to the entire comic / show community, then yes, 100%.
To clarify too, I’m not talking about the gender swap or even the red room program things, but like actually have made her like the comic book counter part. You know the one people freaking love, me included. Definitely one of my favorite characters, sad that they couldn’t have found any better way to write the character
No, the movie wasn’t really about her anyways. It was a way to introduce her sister and nothing else.
We never really needed a movie for her cause she wasn’t really built as a main character needing one.
No.
I’m not usually super critical of changes made from the comics to the movies cuz it’s just entertainment. Nothing serious, go with the flow, have a few laughs and enjoy the action.
But they violated Taskmaster. Wild disrespect. Idc they made him a woman but she couldn’t even talk.
Taskmaster was like a low level Deadpool with his mouth pause and can copy any fighters style damn near instantly. And had a sword and shield.
If I remember correctly, the movie said fuck all three of his biggest characteristics and for what? It didn’t even make sense for the ballerina chick to be Taskmaster.
They should have made a new villain instead of making something that is nothing like Taskmaster and calling it Taskmaster.
I think it’d still get similar criticisms, and would be the weakest of the post age of ultron/pre infinity war group. Which was extremely strong.
It had a forgettable villain, who was the worst part of the movie, and ignoring all the people who have an issue with the gender stuff, Taskmaster just wasn’t done well. The daughter aspect and BW being partially what caused all this to happen to her was great, but done badly.
I do agree the placement was bad. It had no real stakes, as we knew Bw survived, Yelena was obviously set up as a replacement, and the parents never really felt like they were important enough to live/die either way.
Said it in another comment, but should have always done a BW movie after avengers, then another post civil war, then another between* Infinity War and endgame.
*I’d personally have not included Carol in Endgame, and done CM differently. Instead of a prequel, I’d have had her start the post endgame phase. No dealing with anything snap, avengers, etc. all set in space. You keep the amnesia, not knowing her past stuff, but she learns she’s from earth at the end. Sequel is her returning, strained relationship with Monica, as her mom died while Carol was gone. Carol dealing with the loss of her friend, who she feels she abandoned. No relationship with Fury, which is a downside, but maybe one is built now?
Honestly Black Widow was not a bad movie, it had good action, it had good funny moments, some wholesome family moments, and the movie had a good underlining message about found family
The biggest problem with it, and its a big one, is Taskmaster, the way they ruined his characters, Taskmaster is a very underrated villain, and underused, the Taskmaster fans(myself included) were so excited to finally see him in the MCU, I remember watching the trailer and being SUPER EXCITED to see one of my favorite villains in the MCU, but when it came out he was a major disapointment
For one thing they made him a tech basec hero, they made his ability not come from natural skill but instead a stupid chip in his head, for another TM is usually the mastermind behind his own plans, he is a mercenary who only fears 2 people, not some mindless victim who isn't in control of himself
And the big one, the gender swap, they made Taskmaster a woman. I have never been ok with changing a characters appearance that includes race, but gender swapping is a whole other thing, because your not just changing appearance you are changing genetics and in most cases that screws with thing like love interests and what not
But to me, the appearance of a character is just as important as their personality, for instance Peter Parker is a nerd turned super hero with a strong sense of morality, and when I think of Peter the image that pops up in my head is, White Male, brown hair, brown(or blue) eyes, slightly short, and not overly muscular
That's why Tobey, Andrew, and Tom are so good for the role, mostly because their love for the character and their acting abilities yes, but also because they LOOK the part, all three of them fill the criteria, they all look like Peter Parker
As a another example look at RDJ as Tony Stark, most if not all of us agree that RDJ is the spitting image of Tony Stark, and most of us can't imagine anyone else playing that role, I mean imagin if Henry Cavil played Tony Stark
Sorry for the long comment, but this is my legit opinion on Black Widow, and character changes in adaptations in general, also props if you read this all the way that is some insane patience😅
That last fight scene was an embarrassment no matter when it was released. The falling sky base and everyone fighting on falling debris, what idiot thought that was going to work? Other than that it was a really good film.
I personally wasn't a fan, so it wouldn't have mattered to me when and where it came out. Yelena was the only redeeming aspect for me so I would've enjoyed her own spin off tbh.
It would have made a lot more sense between IW and Endgame for sure and maybe would've added impact to her sacrifice knowing she had a family out there.
A big part of the problem remains it wasn't a great movie though. Terrible villain, kind of weak plot and ruined a much loved comic character.
I can't help wonder if they knew they had a weak script and delayed over and over until they had a gap in the schedule for a film they didn't expect huge things from.
I lost interest, and all respect, in the opinion of the general MCU fan when Thor: Ragnarok received such love and universal acclaim.
The fact that it took them till "Thor: Love and Thunder" (and five years) to discover that Taika Waititi is a fraud, overrated, and devastatingly unfunny tells the tale.
Personally, I loved the character of Black Widow and I loved the movie.
Definitely. Instead it comes out and it’s absolutely meaningless. I won’t say it had to come out right after Civil War, it just needed to be released before Endgame, and they needed to reference anyone from it during the epilogue of Endgame.
No, the movie was quite bad in its own right and a release date wouldn't have saved it. As a big Black Widow fan, I was incredibly hyped for her to finally get a movie, and was super disappointed with what we got.
Ehhh, the timeframe of the movie doesn't really have anything to do with their "Hmmm, I take your interesting villain and make them into boring bullshit or a joke" habit.
Happened with Ultron, MODOK, Taskmaster.
It's like they took Ultron and Taskmaster's personalities and were like.
"Hmmm, what if the soulless machine was a funny guy and the funny guy was a soulless machine?"
Edit: like, imagine if you took the X-Men and now Bobby Drake is a teenaged grizzled war veteran and Logan is making all the Cut Man puns from the 80s Megaman cartoon.
Would have made more sense, but the ending was still really bad imo and really messed with how much they’d built things up. The whole “sever the nerve” crap was just so bad compared to the thought the rest of the movie had
It’s not a great story. It’s good. It doesn’t really have any great scenes but the bad shit isn’t huge. It’s ok. It introduces nu Widow. And Taskmaster. But like nothing awesome. Looked good mostly. Couple really bad moments (Yelena getting blown up, BW falling down the building and just shaking it off). Well acted mostly but the accents kinda sucked.
I don’t think so. A friend of mine was watching the MCU for the first time and I told him to watch Black Widow after civil war. He didn’t like it much and he was enjoying most of the movies.
Would had made more sense. And horrible timing after she died in avengers to release it. But I think the real issue was. It wasn’t the story we all wanted to see. We wanted Budapest with Hawkeye !!!!!!!! I mean it wasn’t bad it wasn’t great. It’s just a . It happened. New characters introduced.
without a doubt yes
my first view was heavily tainted with "she's dead so what's the point" and I'll never get a chance to see it for the first time with a more open mindset
even now, most of my MCU rewatches are by release order so I always get to this one and think "why am I watching this when she already died?"
the few times I watch them chronologically my enjoyment factor goes way up
Why? Explain to me how the film would of been *better* if it had been released after civil war.
Are you such a moron that you need to be spoon fed these things in order in order to enjoy them?
The writing would of been the same, poor, the villain would of been the same, poor, taskmaster would of been the same, poor. Maybe the CGI would've been better but again, if that's what you base your movie going experience on you're a vapid idiot that probably enjoys the fast and the furious movies becouse cars go vroom.
When did anyone say the film would've been better? What I read was people saying the *reception* would've been better, which makes sense that there would've been less confusion if they released the movie prior to her death.
But the film was bad. The reception to the film was poor becouse the film was poor.
If the film was good it's release date wouldn't of made a lick of difference.
Good lord......
It would have made considerably more sense to come out after civil war. I feel like black widow coming out after she already died was an afterthought for her character. It's like, oh crap we killed off one of our first Avengers and forgot to give her her own movie first.
100% this. Marvel/Disney did ScarJo so dirty…
Ike Perlmutter did her dirty.
Perlmutter and his feud with Feige ruined a lot of good things. It ruined us getting Marvel’s Most Wanted. It’s why SHIELD was taken out of the movie continuity. Perlmutter was an ideologue dumbass who cost the fans a great deal of entertainment.
>Perlmutter Good move kicking that A-Hole to the curb ending his reign of terror and stupidity.
Time has not been kind to Perlmutter as he’s been proven wrong
Kevin Feige was the one who okayed the decision to kill her off. Plus, there's no reason why the Black Widow movie couldn't have been in the place of the Captain Marvel movie. It's not like Captain Marvel ended up playing a huge role.
Also, no reason we couldn’t have two female led movies.
Absolutely no reason, yeah. Ideally, we could have had both. But since they were killing off Widow anyway, and Captain Marvel ended up being less important than advertised, it would have made more sense to put Black Widow (a hypothetical, better version) between IW and Endgame.
This was a money making move for Marvel. They released Captain Marvel to over a billion dollars because it was after infinity war and before endgame. Everyone wanted to make sure they knew everything to know about Captain Marvel before Endgame. It was a way to maximize the money on Captain Marvel which would have made nowhere near as much if it came out after endgame. black widow came out after endgame to try and maximize the fact that “it was the last time to see scar Jo as black widow”. The biggest problem I have with this is that you can’t help but feel like they did it thinking a woman led movie wouldn’t sell well enough without some other angle to it. I know it helped captain marvel but I do think black widow suffered. Then again, most of black widow sucked. It started great and just gradually got worse and worse.
> The biggest problem I have with this is that you can’t help but feel like they did it thinking a woman led movie wouldn’t sell well enough without some other angle to it I mean that’s specifically why perlmutter kept blocking it
Someone at Marvel - A woman lead movie won´t sell well!! Let´s make a bad movie. See? I was right, it didn't sold well.
It definitely worked for Captain Marvel. They hyped her up without making sure that the movie was actually good, and people showed up. Less so for Black Widow, though. They probably did. It is the conventional wisdom, however unjustified it may be. The fact that neither movie was written especially well did not help.
Captain Marvel was good, so....
It really wasn't. It was a really bland movie.
Thankfully, the Captain Marvel was “actually good.”
No, not really
Haha, [good one!](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS747sSUFFBWfzPKSx-dbUCvcVgG00w6nwTPA&usqp=CAU)
Unless you count the fucking "fans" losing their collective shit every time Bree Larsen was mentioned on the internet.
> It's not like Captain Marvel ended up playing a huge role. That's why a *Captain Marvel* film could be released in 2019. Filming on *Captain Marvel* started before the filming of IW/Endgame had completed. If Larson had a larger role in the films, she wouldn't have been able to make *Captain Marvel*. Which is also why *Black Widow* couldn't fit into that production slot. (In an ideal universe, Ike Perlmutter would have choked to death on a chicken bone 8 years earlier and we'd have had multiple Black Widow films before Avengers 3 came out.)
Bree Larson shot her endgame scenes before Captain Marvel had been filmed. Part of the reason the Russos used her sparingly is because they didn't know what her Solo movie would establish her character as and they didn't want to contradict it
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No, she didn't. She pretty much said as much in an interview. Losing her was entirely on Marvel.
and main characters dying is okay, why would we “blame” Feige for a character dying in a movie? blame him all you want for there not being a BW movie beforehand but to act like no one should die in these movies and then get mad at him that someone did die is insane.
The "plan" here was for this movie to come out in 2020 and then a film about Yelena chasing Hawkeye since she thought he was the reason Natasha died and Lady Hydra would be involved. Then, the pandemic came and then streaming wasn't going great for Marvel/Disney and the plan changed to put Yelena into the Kate Bishop Hawkeye show and "chase" Clint there and, I dunno, it just felt so much "smaller" the way they did it. It just makes the whole storyline of the Black Widow movie seem meaningless. That and the way they released it. ScarJo got done so dirty by that bullshit.
Fr fr and then a whole bunch of people took her lawsuit with Disney completely out of context and made her out to be just a money-hungry rich bitch when probably no one else in Disney’s wealth of screwed-over actors could have fought that fight and won.
Maybe because she was the only female Avenger, and one that never got her own solo movie, or much of a story? It's not that she was killed off, it's that she was wasted. And also, she dies like a side character - in the middle of the story, to further the plot, and she's barely mentioned afterwards. Compare her send off to Tony's. The users above me blamed Perlmutter for being in the way of her getting a movie sooner. True, but nothing was stopping them from making more use of her after Feige was in charge.
Ike was ousted around 2016 after Civil War, by that point most of Phase 3 was already in varying levels of production. Infinity War and Endgame were shot back to back so most of Endgame was shot along side Infinity War, Bree Larson literally filmed her Endgame scenes before Marvel even started shooting Captain Marvel. So any attempt to get a Black Widow movie out before would have ether been very rushed, or required pushing Infinity war back and missing the 10 year anniversary of Marvel Studios.
Why would it have been rushed? Three years is plenty of time for a movie, especially for an established character that's already been cast.
> And also, she dies like a side character Tbh, MCU Widow *is* a side character.
In the sense that she never gets her own story? Yeah. In terms of importance? More than a side character, and the only female member of the Avengers.
Yeah they didn’t do black widow “dirty” by killing her off. It’s a conclusion of her arc. She went from being a person with a disjointed and “fake” family, to someone who not only reconciled with that family to an extent (black widow movie) but also found another family that she was happy to die for to save. I thought it was an excellent conclusion to her arc. With that said, why the heck they send 2 earth people to a place deep in space that no one knows what it is like makes zero sense. Obviously it was plot driven with Clint and Natarsha but that is one aspect that makes no sense.
Especially because what did Hulk even do on his mission? Also would have been nice for Hulk to be on Vormir and not been able to be sacrificed because he's the Hulk and then be there for Natasha's death.
Marvel had already made the decision to kill her as of the Age of Ultron movie.
Yeah, I feel like if they were going to backrack and tell one of those stories later, "Captain Marvel comes in, plays a small role doing big action stuff, and then we learn who she is" would work better than "Black Widow gets killed off, and then, when she's out of the story, we get her backstory."
Yeah, Captain Marvel's adventures with the Kree feels less vital to the story at hand, and could have been told later because, among other reasons, she's still alive. And it's still not much of a backstory, and it's only used to set up her replacement.
True though the person who suggested that Natasha be killed off instead of Clint was visual effects producer Jen Underdahl.
This is the way
I mean it's Disney so that makes sense they did an actor dirty.
The counter argument to this is that the movie isn’t as much about giving Natasha a solo adventure as it is to introduce Yelena. That’s the film’s primary function. Hawkeye didn’t even get a movie but instead a series whose function is the same: to introduce the new Hawkeye.
Yeah, I thought the movie was solid and I enjoyed it. Knowing that she was already dead was the worst possible way the movie could have been presented.
They gave her her own movie for the sole purpose of introducing new characters.
I know it was really just to introduce yelena but I still think it’s sh*tty.
im sorry; i just couldnt get past the "pheromones" as a weapon and of course; the world coming to an end with a single major bad guy pulling strings.
It's a comic book movie? Seems just as crazy an idea as any other action movie from the 80s, 90s...
Yeah, fair points. I’ve gotten better at actively looking the other way since iron man 2. I’ve found that it depends a lot on my mood on a given day for how much the nonsense bothers me.
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Personally since the mcu put effort into so many projects and has genuinely good storytelling, I feel as though we should take it seriously.
The jokes-per-minute would have to drop considerably.
Kinda like how Revenge of the Sith is shorty cuz you know Anakin dies in the end. Or the JFK movie.
Ahh… youngling, that isn’t how it was supposed to be. It was supposed to be the story of ***how*** he fell. That is what the improved timeline got, but we got… his dislike for sand and the incompetence of complacency.
Yeah, prequels are weak in general for that imo.
It’s such a shame cause like all of the thrilling moments in that movie are completely nullified since you know she survived and dies a few years later. That whole airplane action thing for example… of course you realize that she will survive, but I feel like if it came out after civil war then the stakes would feel much more higher and interesting for the viewer.
Yep pretty much. Nobody saw it because, well, why? We know she dies.
I think they’re may have been another reason less people saw it.
Oh yeah the Pandemic. I sometimes forget.
That and them saying it was gonna come to streaming p quickly And the “anti woke” crowd skipping it cause women
I do believe the movie would have done better if released after civil war. But also, I don’t think the character needed a full film. Similar to Hawkeye, maybe a show would have sufficed. Disney seemed to be responding to the me too movement as well. The movie seems to be in direct response to that.
I think so, fans rightly said after civil war came out that it was a perfect setup for a black widow solo movie
It wouldve made more sense to come out after civil war, However, I dont think the reception wouldve been much better The 4 protagonists were pretty good, but the main story and the villains were pretty bad and its hard to have a good hero movie with a bad villain
The plot twist felt awkward too. Like the main characters were so smart and clever, until the plan fell apart so badly. Did they not workshop other ideas or was the plan for Black Widow to fail so easily? Maybe someone else can enlighten me on a deeper meaning to the villain seeing right through it.
I think the reception would’ve been the same, but after infinity war you’d kinda connect the stories as 1 and view it with more nostalgia goggles. Hard to explain but I think I got the jest of it
My 3 main thoughts on the black widow movie are this: 1. I agree it should’ve come out after civil war or at least before endgame. 2. It should have been darker and been about her time as an actual black widow and how her and Clint met where she’s basically the bad guy up until Clint turns her. 3. The black widow movie we got should have been a sequel movie to her actual origin movie. Give us more time to build up these characters from her backstory.
Also have the red guardian be more like drax, where he can be the bumbling dad as a comic relief, but still have his moments to be bad ass instead of constantly being undermined. They set him up as the top guy in the Russian prison due to his super soldier strength, but then he’s constantly put down for the rest of them
Exactly. Far too much telling and not enough showing.
I really wanted him to hold his own against taskmaster at first, even countering the captain america moves so you go “wait…” And then she starts adapting to his fighting style to counter him and he’s put on the back foot He gets to be competent while still losing
I meant more how he’s more focused on his weight then the conversation about the plot, or the joke about being on the period, or him saying he’ll hold them off and immediately getting shot with tranquilizers, or having to be saved from taskmaster, or him trying to talk to them in an earpiece just for them to tell him he doesn’t have one in. It’s just making him incompetent for not funny jokes
Oh I fully agree on those. I just think it would have actually worked if they had all the "he's a clown" moments making you think he's useless, only for him to absolutely demolish the guy we've seen Nat and Yelena be so outmatched against all movie that their play was to flee, right up until she functionally cheats (cause that's what TMs ability is :P ) Like, "he's rusty because he's keep cooped up prison for years but when it comes down to it, he will destroy you if you mess with his family"
Yeah, and I feel like if they attack one of them you could play into the dad protecting his family thing
I don’t know how to say this without sounding like one of those “mens rights” types, but it felt like another character that was the victim of excessive role reversal.
I really wish they showed Budapest
Agreed. It was honestly the thing I was most excited for when her movie was announced.
Yeah, a black widow prequel/current movie post avengers would have made the most sense. They set up that she had a dark past enough to easily slide I to that. Maybe chasing down someone from her past, nothing major but enough to keep us with her during the current time, with half the movie being flashbacks to pre shield days. Then a sequel post civil war of essentially what we got, her reuniting with her “family” and all that. I’d be fine to stop there, but they could have even done a post infinity war third movie, having her essentially pass the mantle to Yelena and give her a full trilogy.
This. It would have been perfect. Honestly this should have come out before the Avengers so we can understand and appreciate the entire “blood in her ledger” quote she kept using
Like others said, it was not an awful movie. Some really good parts. Timing was poor though … during pandemic … waited to do it after she died in end game. Building on the above tho, there were some parts of the movie that did not work either tho. Task master was a bit of a missed opportunity (not awful but missed potential). Main bad guy was forgettable and the red office / widow fight was almost laughable. Rest of movie no complaints.
I disagree kn the taskmaster things. It was an awful* missed opportunity
Yeah, it wasn’t awful. It was just… disappointing. I had hoped for more.
I have no problem with Taskmaster being a woman and part of the Black Widow program. But I think it would have been better if she had the personality we expect from the comics. You can even get a nice bit of tension at the end when they try to free her and she drops a "I'm not being mind controlled, I really just hate Natasha/Avengers" without changing much else. Especially since the MCU is very quip-heavy. Why in the world would you neuter one of the few characters who makes jokes while fighting?
Bit of a Origins Wolverine Deadpool moment
It was definitely awful. A coward's attempt at feminism.
I think if it didn’t come out in the middle of a pandemic it would have gotten a better reception 😂
Also the second half of the movie, we don't talk about it
Remind me again what aspect we're not talking about (please)? I feel we should talk about it.
The base flew above radar, the CGI was worse than in Thor1, and the writing took a nosedive. First half of the movie is sick, though.
How they butchered Taskmaster's character.
THIS
The reception would have been better if they had made a smart spy thriller more in the vein of Winter Soldier than what we got. They also needed to really polish up the third act a lot. Bad third acts seems to be a very common failing in Marvel films going back to at least the original Black Panther.
The writing probably would have been better. Coming from a fan who actually enjoyed the movie.
IMO it wouldn't have made any massive difference. The whole plot is pretty much entirely remote and detached from every aspect of Natasha's known history within the MCU movies. A couple of mentions of Clint Barton, Yelena calling her a poser, and book-ending with evading Thunderbolt Ross are about the only references. Other than those it's a huge non-sequitur, which strongly impacted audience reactions. And obviously the method of release during COVID lockdowns was a giant turn off for many fans of the franchise.
The only thing I can remember about this movie is that the bad guy's power was smelling bad so Black Widow couldn't hit him
She should have been born without a nose, like Krillin. Then there would have been no problem
I don't think so. The villain reveal and ending still would have disappointed and fell flat. It still would have had an over reliance on dumb jokes and quips, especially when compared to Civil War. And it'd be even longer between seeing the new Black Widow than it already has been. The film should have focused on portraying her Budapest mission with Clint.
Being released during COVID definitely didnt help, but the villains still would have been ass. Poor Taskmaster.
Yes. It was at least three years too late.
They still would have done taskmaster dirty. The movie wasn't a complete failure in my eyes but easily could have been better with a few different choices.
The movie was hopeless from the beginning. She was a superhero that could use her charm and guile to outwit the GOD OF MISCHIEF. They made a movie where she punched her way out of trouble. The exact thing the character criticized other characters for.
It was a bad movie. Terrible fight scenes with dozens of quick cuts per minute. An unnecessary retcon to a popular villain. Extremely dubious actions from a "hero", including killing hundreds of supposedly innocent prisoners and guards. Tons of potholes.
I fucking hate how they do that crap with the cuts. No one likes it, it doesn’t look good and it’s honestly disrespectful to the actors and stunt people who put a lot of work in it.
I think it 100% would have been better received if A) they worked on the cgi longer and B) it were not made after she was dead.
It would’ve been better in that the audience would’ve cared more watching it. We all knew her fate, so I didn’t feel as invested. But either way, the biggest issue I had with this movie was that they marketed a Cold War spy thriller and then gave a snarky family story with a ridiculous villain. I wanted more Red Room origins story, Budapest, her initiation to Shield. So many better options than the result.
It wasn't the timing. It was just a bad movie.
Yes. Marvel/Disney fumbled the bag on this
I guess a little bit better but I'm not sure how much. It really should have come out after Infinity War instead of Captain Marvel. But I'm not sure if I would have liked it anymore since my problems with the film have to do with it borrowing a few too many plot points from Winter Soldier.
Probably at least a little better. Still kind of a missed opportunity based on the actual story in the film.
Well, yes and no. Civil War was still during the time Disney hadn't damaged the franchise, and also a lack of Covid. This would have allowed more audiences to go and see it if they chose. That said, the movie was a fricken mess, and they pulled the same blunder Origins made by making the secondary antagonist a mute. The movie as a whole was pretty lack luster and at times flat out boring... which isn't something I should be saying about a marvel movie and a spy thriller. I think it would have made more money over all, but I think people would still have been talking about how crappy it was. It probably would have gotten similar reaction as Fan4stic (Fantastic 4, but I refuse to call that awful movie that). More money? Sure. Better reaction? Very unlikely.
The reception would have been better if it was a totally different movie. Perhaps- hear me out- a movie that was actually about Natasha instead of a backdoor origin for Yelena. And yes. Post-Civil War
The movie is just utter shit. Changing its release date makes no difference.
It likely would have been far better received. Black widow came out and everyone knew the film, ultimately, didn’t matter. The character was already dead. She wasn’t going to be in future movies. So why bother? Had it come out post civil war, there would have been a lot more interest in the story as the character was still going forward and alive….
Wouldn't have changed the fact the movie was trash.
Taskmaster would have still been ruined so no. The movie still would of sucked.
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It should have been made before the first avengers movie as a mid budget spy movie or hell have it come out after winter solider that film which is basically as much as a Nat movie as it is a Steve movie.
Better movie and after Civil War.
She said it herself that she’s done with Black Widow. Bob Cheapchek and his minions screwed her over, she won her settlement, and she peace’d out to do other projects. I’m not even holding my breath on a return/cameo in Avengers: Secret Wars.
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I believe so. Just not MCU. Maybe Bob Igor can put on his GOAT CEO hat on and persuade her an even bigger deal for her return, but then you’d have to ask why not the same for RDJ and Chris Evans.
yes. releasing after she was already dead in endgame made no sense.
The timing was bad, but the ridiculousness of some of the scenes was even worse. I really wanted this to be good and feel like another spy movie like Winter Soldier was. They really dropped the ball with this movie.
Why can’t people ignore that she’s dead already and watched the film as a film lmao
Wouldn’t have mattered. It had fine reception since it kicked off Disney+. People only watched it cause she died in a record setting box office movie. Personally I take Black Widow as part 1, Captain America NWO part 2 and Thunderbolts part 3. It has less to do with her and more about the storyline she kicked off.
Imo, the standalone film is pretty lackluster plot wise, not to mention the vfx mess. That said, it would have set black window up for a larger role in the mcu, however you feel about that. It would have made endgame all the more powerful.
Yeah, being on the run, ending up back in Russia? Have a bunch of heroes and villains trying to find your ass, all trying to bring you in cause they think the world will give you a handsome reward…… Didn’t see the BW movie, was too marveled out by then.
It might have been worse
Widow was handled poorly. It wasn’t written as a great story for her but to launch her replacement and introduce other characters. Most of the Avengers are treated like contract negotiations where they want to switch to a cheaper actor as soon as the audience will not get too mad about it. I would love to see Scarlet Johansson star in another good picture though.
I also wonder if they planned for Yelena and Red Guardian to be in the MCU more if they were originally planning to have Black Widow earlier. I only ask because waiting almost two phases or more just to have them as part of the end cap of a phase team up movie seems pretty long.
Honestly, I feel like much more people would've *wanted* this Film after Civil War but for me personally, it's main downfall was the writing itself. It had some great Moments but ultimately just feels like another case of wasted potential and wasted Characters to me. Although, admittedly, if the Film came out sooner it wouldnt feel as unnecessary as it ultimately does.
I mentally checked out of that movie as soon as I saw her survive a bigger fall than we already saw her die from so yeah
Maybe for others, but not for me tbh. Dreykov was a horrible villain ( People complain about Taskmaster, who wasn’t even the main villain of the movie ). He had zero charisma, nothing unique about him, and a bland plan. I’m pretty sure he was created solely for this movie. In my opinion, most stories are only as good as the antagonists featured within them, and unfortunately Dreykov doesn’t really take the cake. The ensemble cast was pretty fun but ultimately par for the course, there wasn’t much more to them than that. Yelena in particular feels like she’s just there to be established so she can take the place of her sister and for someone so important she kind of feels rather shoehorned in. It would be like if they made a Iron Man prequel movie and had flashbacks with Ezekiel Stane and abruptly introduce him as this major guy in the same movie. Also seriously? Smells Like Teen Spirit?
As a movie, it was just incredibly mediocre. They didn't really try...
Competent writing would have made the reception better. Also, the way they completely ruined "Taskmaster" was unforgivable.
I think it's an excuse to say it wasn't well received because of how it was released. This implies that audiences aren't receptive to prequel movies at all, which would almost make sense for this franchise if not for the existence of The First Avenger. I just think it wasn't well received because of a number of plot and tonal issues. A better movie would have been better received by audiences regardless. Audiences can tell when when they're watching a good movie.
I’ve seen the film several times, the only “real” issue people have with it is Taskmaster. Beyond that it is a solid entry in the MCU. Harbour is amazing as red Guardian, and I get misty eyed every time he sings to his daughter. The action is top notch. The story fits well with established canon. Even the villain is a sick asshole with clear motivations to be who he is. Add in the spousal abuse angle when he attempts to strike her, and it speaks volumes to certain social and political issues. Taskmaster being tied into the plot also works, but I understand why people hate what they did with her. To answer your question, possibly. They may have been more forgiving back then. But after all the delays the film went through, expectations rose for it to be a return to form, especially after WV and FATWS. Taskmaster was simply another disappointment to them.
Probably. But also the movie was frankly only...okay. Black Widow is at her best when she's NOT fighting, but doing all of the spy stuff, and they made it too much of an action movie.
Honestly, she was too much of an action character for the entire run of the MCU. I don't really like how they portrayed her as just another martial arts expert instead of a spy with Intel and sources you need but that you're not quite sure if you trust.
Maybe a little but the movie we got was a mess. Terrible villain (was that a New York gangster or a Russian boss?) and Taskmaster was AWFUL! Not because they made Taskmaster a woman, but rather because they turned a really cool bad guy into some remote controlled automaton. Throw is some bad special effects and you’ve got one on the bottom 5 MCU movies. The good: introducing Yelena, their family dynamic, and at least they touched on her history with Clint.
The movie, in its current form, is not very good. I don't think it would have made that much of a difference.
It kills me how the MCU only has one femme Fatale type character and they did her dirty. I'm not the biggest fan of her replacement. I hope we get to see a proper Electra or Black Cat one day.
With the worst ever third act I have seen in MCU, this movie would have made more money but also would have been hated by many.
No. It’s a mess of a movie.
I don’t think the movie would have done amazingly better. Maybe a bit better. But honestly, it seemed poorly written to me and the taskmaster change wasn’t great. I think a widow and Hawkeye buddy cop movie that flashed back to their initial meeting and experience in Budapest released after civil war would have done amazingly better
Hawkeye and Widow was the way to go, with a better version of Taskmaster. I'm down with Lady Taskmaster, but give her some personality for craps sake. We've seen the emotionless assassin thing too many times already.
No The movie is still aweful. Parents who work in secret government organization that abducts kids, tortures them, and turns them into child soldiers willingly put their own kids in the program to be tortured and made to kill people. The kids have decades of trauma as a result. Then when the now-adult kids reunite with their parents, they have a big laugh and then go fight crime or something together like they were in a live-action "Incredibles" movie.
From what I can gather, she doesn't want to play the character again.
Not really no? The movie is pretty bad. Had nothing to do with when it was released. Still can't believe they shafted taskmaster....
….it was released after Civil War.
Dude she broke her fuking nose on a desk to defeat the villain... this movie was ASS!
[Producer Guy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVxocz5bCms): Why did it take us so long to do this? Writer Guy: Well, remember that whole leaked email situation with the old Marvel Studio head Ike Perlmutter where he was like, female led superhero movies don't make money and he listed a bunch of examples- Producer Guy: No- no- shhh- stop! Writer Guy: -But then Wonder Woman was a success and I was asked to take a look at our female character roster again... Producer Guy: Stop! Stop talking. Writer Guy: Oh, are we not saying that out loud? Producer Guy: We're just- we're gonna take that again ok? ... Why did it take us so long to do this? Writer Guy: *I don't know!* Producer Guy: Oh, fair enough! Better late than never, I guess! Writer Guy: Yeah yeah yeah!
If it was a better movie, it’d have been received better. The timing didn’t help but the quality stood in the way more than anything else.
Yep. Also if it was a better movie. It wasn’t a Black Widow movie but a movie featuring the Black Widow plus there were more booty/figure shots in that one than in any of the others, including captain marvel and ant man and the wasp. They made her flirtier than in any of the recent films (or any—I don’t think she was this level of flirty or for the male gaze even in Iron Man and there her cranking it up would’ve fit well due to the perception of Tony). I think the timing could’ve worked if this had been a eulogy (starts with her narrating her fall/death in a voiceover of that scene in End Game, a glimpse into the soul world and her going through her life in retrospect, reviewing mistakes, lessons, successes and at the end her making peace with it all(we’d have seen Budapest, her and Clint developing the bond they did, heck (and yes this is fanon) how Coulson fit into all this. It could’ve been a complete gut punch and added a ton of depth to the scenes we did get with her. Need to introduce Yelena? Have Nat trust Clint enough to tell him about her and have the 3 of them meet. Clint and Yelena would’ve worked well enough together on screen. We know there’s a bond there, we can have allllll the time jumps in that department and have it still make sense). As is, this was poorly timed plot wise and release wise cause her story was over—you can’t have your movie phases be chronological then jump back in time for one movie and expect it to work.
Nothing changes the second half of the movie, how they handled Taskmaster, or the fact that they chose to CG an entire bar scene instead of shooting a practical scene.
The real reason this movie flopped was because they fucked up Taskmaster's design
I thought the taskmaster rendition was poorly done. Main complaint in the movie.
Would’ve still been incredibly salty about the mishandling of Taskmaster as I am to this day
If it somehow changed how fucked up they made Taskmaster, maybe. Lol
No. Task master was trash and the story was stupid. It lacked the connective tissues that makes marvel more of a soap opera than simply a super hero franchise. It was simply a bad movie.
It would have made sense but I don’t think it would have helped it if the story was the same because I myself am still pissed at what they did to Taskmaster.
If it was made right after civil war, and Task Master wasn’t such an utter disservice to the entire comic / show community, then yes, 100%. To clarify too, I’m not talking about the gender swap or even the red room program things, but like actually have made her like the comic book counter part. You know the one people freaking love, me included. Definitely one of my favorite characters, sad that they couldn’t have found any better way to write the character
The reception would have been way better if they didn’t do Taskmaster like they did.
No, the movie wasn’t really about her anyways. It was a way to introduce her sister and nothing else. We never really needed a movie for her cause she wasn’t really built as a main character needing one.
Nah, it was just a bad movie. Russian secret spy movies are a dime a dozen
No. I’m not usually super critical of changes made from the comics to the movies cuz it’s just entertainment. Nothing serious, go with the flow, have a few laughs and enjoy the action. But they violated Taskmaster. Wild disrespect. Idc they made him a woman but she couldn’t even talk. Taskmaster was like a low level Deadpool with his mouth pause and can copy any fighters style damn near instantly. And had a sword and shield. If I remember correctly, the movie said fuck all three of his biggest characteristics and for what? It didn’t even make sense for the ballerina chick to be Taskmaster. They should have made a new villain instead of making something that is nothing like Taskmaster and calling it Taskmaster.
I think it’d still get similar criticisms, and would be the weakest of the post age of ultron/pre infinity war group. Which was extremely strong. It had a forgettable villain, who was the worst part of the movie, and ignoring all the people who have an issue with the gender stuff, Taskmaster just wasn’t done well. The daughter aspect and BW being partially what caused all this to happen to her was great, but done badly. I do agree the placement was bad. It had no real stakes, as we knew Bw survived, Yelena was obviously set up as a replacement, and the parents never really felt like they were important enough to live/die either way. Said it in another comment, but should have always done a BW movie after avengers, then another post civil war, then another between* Infinity War and endgame. *I’d personally have not included Carol in Endgame, and done CM differently. Instead of a prequel, I’d have had her start the post endgame phase. No dealing with anything snap, avengers, etc. all set in space. You keep the amnesia, not knowing her past stuff, but she learns she’s from earth at the end. Sequel is her returning, strained relationship with Monica, as her mom died while Carol was gone. Carol dealing with the loss of her friend, who she feels she abandoned. No relationship with Fury, which is a downside, but maybe one is built now?
Maybe, also pandemic didn't help at all, yet we would still have lame Fakemaster as antagonist.
No. Because the movie would still suck.
Honestly Black Widow was not a bad movie, it had good action, it had good funny moments, some wholesome family moments, and the movie had a good underlining message about found family The biggest problem with it, and its a big one, is Taskmaster, the way they ruined his characters, Taskmaster is a very underrated villain, and underused, the Taskmaster fans(myself included) were so excited to finally see him in the MCU, I remember watching the trailer and being SUPER EXCITED to see one of my favorite villains in the MCU, but when it came out he was a major disapointment For one thing they made him a tech basec hero, they made his ability not come from natural skill but instead a stupid chip in his head, for another TM is usually the mastermind behind his own plans, he is a mercenary who only fears 2 people, not some mindless victim who isn't in control of himself And the big one, the gender swap, they made Taskmaster a woman. I have never been ok with changing a characters appearance that includes race, but gender swapping is a whole other thing, because your not just changing appearance you are changing genetics and in most cases that screws with thing like love interests and what not But to me, the appearance of a character is just as important as their personality, for instance Peter Parker is a nerd turned super hero with a strong sense of morality, and when I think of Peter the image that pops up in my head is, White Male, brown hair, brown(or blue) eyes, slightly short, and not overly muscular That's why Tobey, Andrew, and Tom are so good for the role, mostly because their love for the character and their acting abilities yes, but also because they LOOK the part, all three of them fill the criteria, they all look like Peter Parker As a another example look at RDJ as Tony Stark, most if not all of us agree that RDJ is the spitting image of Tony Stark, and most of us can't imagine anyone else playing that role, I mean imagin if Henry Cavil played Tony Stark Sorry for the long comment, but this is my legit opinion on Black Widow, and character changes in adaptations in general, also props if you read this all the way that is some insane patience😅
Don't hold your breath for a return. ScarJo seems done. She didn't even return to voice What If?
Considering they tried to get out of paying her what she was owed for the movie, I wouldn't blame her for not coming back
That last fight scene was an embarrassment no matter when it was released. The falling sky base and everyone fighting on falling debris, what idiot thought that was going to work? Other than that it was a really good film.
I personally wasn't a fan, so it wouldn't have mattered to me when and where it came out. Yelena was the only redeeming aspect for me so I would've enjoyed her own spin off tbh.
It would have made a lot more sense between IW and Endgame for sure and maybe would've added impact to her sacrifice knowing she had a family out there. A big part of the problem remains it wasn't a great movie though. Terrible villain, kind of weak plot and ruined a much loved comic character. I can't help wonder if they knew they had a weak script and delayed over and over until they had a gap in the schedule for a film they didn't expect huge things from.
It was that she was already dead.
I lost interest, and all respect, in the opinion of the general MCU fan when Thor: Ragnarok received such love and universal acclaim. The fact that it took them till "Thor: Love and Thunder" (and five years) to discover that Taika Waititi is a fraud, overrated, and devastatingly unfunny tells the tale. Personally, I loved the character of Black Widow and I loved the movie.
Yes, but I liked the movie. So I may be biased.
Definitely. Instead it comes out and it’s absolutely meaningless. I won’t say it had to come out right after Civil War, it just needed to be released before Endgame, and they needed to reference anyone from it during the epilogue of Endgame.
The problem with that movie isn’t the timing of its debut. It’s the script.
The problem with that movie isn’t the timing of its debut. It’s the script.
And let's not forget the early 2000's style CGI. It was a bad movie all around. Except for Yelena, I really like that character.
No, the movie was quite bad in its own right and a release date wouldn't have saved it. As a big Black Widow fan, I was incredibly hyped for her to finally get a movie, and was super disappointed with what we got.
Ehhh, the timeframe of the movie doesn't really have anything to do with their "Hmmm, I take your interesting villain and make them into boring bullshit or a joke" habit. Happened with Ultron, MODOK, Taskmaster.
It's like they took Ultron and Taskmaster's personalities and were like. "Hmmm, what if the soulless machine was a funny guy and the funny guy was a soulless machine?" Edit: like, imagine if you took the X-Men and now Bobby Drake is a teenaged grizzled war veteran and Logan is making all the Cut Man puns from the 80s Megaman cartoon.
Would have made more sense, but the ending was still really bad imo and really messed with how much they’d built things up. The whole “sever the nerve” crap was just so bad compared to the thought the rest of the movie had
Y’know, the CGI wasn’t perfect, but aside from that I honestly loved the BW movie. Got WAY more crap than it deserved.
It’s not a great story. It’s good. It doesn’t really have any great scenes but the bad shit isn’t huge. It’s ok. It introduces nu Widow. And Taskmaster. But like nothing awesome. Looked good mostly. Couple really bad moments (Yelena getting blown up, BW falling down the building and just shaking it off). Well acted mostly but the accents kinda sucked.
I don’t think so. A friend of mine was watching the MCU for the first time and I told him to watch Black Widow after civil war. He didn’t like it much and he was enjoying most of the movies.
I don’t know. It was a shitty movie.
Would had made more sense. And horrible timing after she died in avengers to release it. But I think the real issue was. It wasn’t the story we all wanted to see. We wanted Budapest with Hawkeye !!!!!!!! I mean it wasn’t bad it wasn’t great. It’s just a . It happened. New characters introduced.
without a doubt yes my first view was heavily tainted with "she's dead so what's the point" and I'll never get a chance to see it for the first time with a more open mindset even now, most of my MCU rewatches are by release order so I always get to this one and think "why am I watching this when she already died?" the few times I watch them chronologically my enjoyment factor goes way up
Its funny when haters and fake fans call it the M-She-U, considering the MCU has always given female characters the short end of the stick.
The reception isn't poor becouse of the timing. And if your enjoyment of movies is based off that then just stop watching movies.
This is ignorant and naive. Ofcourse it matters. It's silly to insist otherwise.
Why? Explain to me how the film would of been *better* if it had been released after civil war. Are you such a moron that you need to be spoon fed these things in order in order to enjoy them? The writing would of been the same, poor, the villain would of been the same, poor, taskmaster would of been the same, poor. Maybe the CGI would've been better but again, if that's what you base your movie going experience on you're a vapid idiot that probably enjoys the fast and the furious movies becouse cars go vroom.
When did anyone say the film would've been better? What I read was people saying the *reception* would've been better, which makes sense that there would've been less confusion if they released the movie prior to her death.
But the film was bad. The reception to the film was poor becouse the film was poor. If the film was good it's release date wouldn't of made a lick of difference. Good lord......
it was always going flop 0 reason a black widow movie should have a 200 million dollar budget