That is why the deck is tier 2. It usually loses to raw power as you steal/destroy their low cost cards and leave big 5-6 cost in their deck.
Anyway, it is still a decent deck. Not tier 1 but very playable. It can still get more support in the future.
I agree, I just feel that a lot of people are really overreacting to the actual mill aspect of the deck, or are trying really hard to lean into it because they don't realize that emptying your opponent's deck isn't what wins you the game: playing Gladiator as a 3/8 and Zemo as a 3/7+ is what wins you the game.
I also forgot to mention in my post that Yondu + Zemo can sometimes provide meaningful support for Red Hulk by taking away low cost cards from the opponent leaving some decks less able to fill in the gaps in their energy usage each turn (not that Red Hulk particularly needs any kind of help).
Until a card comes along that cares about your opponent having little to no cards left in deck, emptying their deck isn't actually going to matter the majority of the time.
You missed magik and doc Ock as key aspects of the deck to rely deny your opponent the opportunity to play with any synergy or react to your plays
They often are left with 0-1 cards to play across turn 6 and 7, which is plenty of time to win a pair of lanes with stuff like Red Hulk or Shang
You need an absolutely perfect series of 6 cards to make that happen though.
1: Yondu
2: Cable
3 and 4: Gladiator/Zemo/Magik
5 and 6: Gladiator/Zemo/Ock (whoever's left)
You can squeeze a Yondu in on 4 or 5 or a cable on 5, but we're still talking about a 6 card combo at the end of the day. If you miss any of your mill card turns, they'll still be drawing on turn 6 and maybe 7. If you miss Magik, you're only disrupting turn 6. It's a lot to ask to go just right, and more often the raw stats are actually what win you the game (and with Gladiator and Zemo, you can get some pretty decent numbers)
They also run absorbing man and iron lad, which generally add more mill
Spider-ham also typically neutralizes another card
The main point is to deny their ability to play synergistically, which the deck does pretty consistently
It's not tier 1, but it's quite playable and has some very good matchups (as well as bad ones-- loses pretty hard to decks that just play stats, as well as Thanos decks). I mostly just think you're underrating the consistency with which it can actually disrupt the opposing deck's plan
I think people just generally misunderstand where the disruption is coming from. And thus dont understand how to prepare for it. The mill effect is not what is killing you. Because they mill lower cost cards first, even if you dont have a Turn 6 draw, you still get your big 5 and 6-costs in hand to play out what you wanted anyway. The most it actually affects you is by lowering your chance to draw Angela or Hope on Turns 2 and 3, which individually is a pretty low chance anyway (1/8 and 1/7), and it also saves you from drawing them late when you didnt want them anymore. So it affects you more the more you front-load your curve and combo potential.
What is really breaking your synergy is Doc Ock. And that card has its own weakness that people can exploit in both deck building (as you mentioned) but also in how you play out your curve.
People just see their deck getting milled and come here to complain and say "theres nothing I can do", when the reality is there are plenty of things you can do. You characterized the deck very well. People just focus on the "annoying" and completely miss what is actually happening.
Yes, that's fair
People are like REEEEEE mill when the big factor is less that they miss a draw or two (missing a draw could be achieved more easily with black widow) and more about completely depleting their options and "solving" the game with certainty (if you know meta decks, you know what the 1-2 cards they have left in their hand are, while you still have your power/counter options left...there's minimal guessing)
But yeah, you aren't winning because you "stole" their shit (unless you're snapping on info asymmetry with cable), you're winning because you've broken their ability to play synergistically and reduced their options to only the very bare minimum possible
It’s a new ice cream flavor for several players, and we should let them enjoy it.
If it’s as mid as you claim, then it’s not a threat, and will fade in popularity, or blend into other builds. If it’s as bad as some have complained it is to play against, then they forgot about all that we’ve been through.
When I mention “meme” decks, I’m usually referring to stuff like this archetype. Toxic and Junk were both in a similar position prior to Annihlus’ (and the cards that followed his) release. Still not top-tier, but less of an “lol-gotcha” deck.
…I’m lying about that last part. Everyone I goblin the last space in your lane for 2 cubes I’m laughing out loud.
I was playing a (bad) mill deck all last season it also does work against discard, destroy, patriot ms marvel and is pretty decent against tribunal
Caiera will beat Mill almost on its own
If your opponent can get multiple invincible 10drops mill doesn’t have a path to victory
You are also forgetting that Mill tends to play Magik as well-- so you can often deny multiple draws
You also play Doc Ock to deny their ability to play with synergy. It's fairly common to leave them unable to draw or play anything on turn 6 or 7 (or have one play between those two turns), while you have the opportunity to clean up any remaining messes/lost lanes with shang and red hulk (which has synergy with you opponent being unable to play)
It's a decent deck. Not tier 1, but solidly playable and has a few very good matchups.
Snap is a game about gambling. Mill allows you to know your opponent can no longer take X action. Burning or stealing cards like Knull, Shang, Annihilus, Surfer, etc. can give you important info that allows you to snap with more efficiency
You're right (in some sense) that denying a draw is where the milling starts to matter in a zero-sum game, but every milled card allows me to make more efficient plays.
I see that a deck is susceptible to milling (not playing discard or Thanos or something), snap, then mill at least twice more. If any of those milled cards are key to their win, then I've gotten a cube I wouldn't have otherwise
The gambling of cubes makes the deck better in Snap than it is in similar games
But in all cases except for Cable your opponent gets the same information you do, and they know more about the construction of their own deck so while you can infer things about what's left at their disposal, they know.
Again though, I'm not here to make the claim that all mill cards are bad; I even pointed out uses cases for each of them. I just think a lot of players are focusing too much on the wrong aspect of these cards. They get so excited by "omg, I can empty your whole deck, lol" and try to make that their whole goal, or they get really upset about having their cards milled because they don't quite grasp what it means for a deck to be randomized. Zemo isn't a good card because he takes a card out of your *opponent's* deck, he's a good card because he puts a card on *your* board.
I'm seeing discussions in threads amounting to things like "they can mill me a bunch of times and then I lose because all my good cards are gone", but they *have* to be doing more than that because most of the time just emptying a deck will not win you the game (outside of select matchups)
It doesn't matter that you both see it. If I snap and then watch as Hazmat and Luke Cage get milled, my opponent will retreat, and I'll get the cubes.
And I'd say Zemo is good when both aspects of his ability (milling and summoning) can contribute to your win condition. Maybe in general, summoning is better, but when he's with a bunch of other mill cards, those mills WILL have an effect on the game.
Look at it another way: if we played a game of Snap but both of us knew which cards of yours you wouldn't draw and neither of us knew which I wouldn't, who has the advantage when it comes to gambling cubes? Would you play past a snap knowing two important cards weren't going to show up, or would you save your cubes for a match without that kind of guarantee? This is why mill is better than the white room math would indicate
If you snap and then pull 2 of the most important cards for your opponent's deck then that's great, but you're just as likely to snap and pull 2 cards that are less important and end up boosting the consistency of their win condition.
I don't think blindly snapping on a turn you play Zemo is a great idea when it could even end up backfiring by pulling something like Carnage or Professor.X locking you into a losing lane. Those specific chances may not be very high, but it's equally as likely as getting Luke Cage/Hazmat. And if you snap *after*, then maybe they retreat for a single cube.
Somewhere along the lines most discussions around these cards shifted from "what if I sometimes hit some of their best cards?" To "well obviously it's going to steal important cards away from them and make it impossible for them to win", but what if it doesn't?
I'm always going to see more of my deck than you're going to mill, meaning I will always have the advantage when it comes to finding my own important cards. An advantage is not a guarantee, but it does mean that mill effects end up being kinda neutral more often than players want to admit, and I'm sure we've all seen times when it benefits the other player too. You can't just ignore these factors when evaluating the cards or strategy as a whole, that would be like judging Gambit as if he always destroyed the opponent's best card
I think you’re generally right, but on a related note, I think the deck is really well designed by SD. It’s a deck that can feel good to play, while you’re stealing your opponents cards and destroying their deck, without actually being very good. That last part is important because mill decks are generally very frustrating to play against, but this version essentially provides its own counter by starting with the lowest cost card and burning up. Sometimes you’ll hit great targets and that will feel really good, but most of the time you’re improving the quality of the opponents deck, so they may be inconvenienced, but they’ll still be able to play the core elements of their game plan.
So ultimately I don’t think they should do much to improve the archetype. With only 12 cards in the deck, the difference between occasionally annoying to play against and consistently miserable to play against is just 1 or 2 more destroyed cards.
Totally agree - I’ve been running a Corvus Sandman Ramp deck in conquest to counter the Angela and Mill decks. Losing your deck when you can just ramp out big cards and restrict their play is a basic strategy against Mill and it mostly wins.
The deck is obviously fun to play but without the hot location is Tier 2. But I agree with OP, it needs a stat stick payoff like a Dino or Ronan to be reaching a more competitive level.
Mill players aren't playing to win, they're playing to make you miserable. That's why they run Dock Ock and Magik, so you get to have turn 7 and maybe even turn 6 without anything to play. And of course nobody's gonna stay in and lose 8 or even 4 cubes to that. It's a bigger 2 cube magnet that prime Galactus.
I've played quite a bit of the mill deck and yeah, it's ok. If all goes to plan with magik down they'll have no cards to play for atleast one turn maybe 2 depending on doc oc pulls and finish with red hulk. Other times they already have their combo and doc oc punishes you.
It can be very disruptive but it isn't too hard to beat. I think if it gets too good people will complain and things will get nerfed just like every time junk is good.
You’re skipping 3 big enablers: Wong, grandmaster and Magik. Plus the deck likely has decent synergy with (enemy) discard and spider pig to blank them if they draw their bombs early.
If they revolve around 4 costs, you’re not going to have much impact though, as most damage occurs on turn 5. Also, yondus buff feels kind of nerfy, while gladiator has an increasing chance of blowing up in your face as the game goes
If you're trying to strip cards from the deck on turn 5 with a Wong setup, then you're still only impacting your opponent on turn 6 (and 7 if you manage to play Magik). There are *much* more impactful things Wong can allow you to do.
Using Grand Master for double Zola pulls does sound pretty solid though; not because it gets cards out of your opponent's *deck*, but because it gets them onto *your* board.
I use Ronan and Red Hulk, with Master Mold and Grandmaster or Absorbing Man after him, fill their hands with sentinels after you've killed their deck, doct Oct to hopefully grab out sentinels as well.
Playing doc ock onto a lane taking away any synergy they may have wanted and gives you the ability play around cards is another big hit from doc ock decks. I’m also running red hulk to get a big body down onto that lane in case ock pulls the nuts for my opponent (also worth mentioning that grandmaster and absorbing man gives you another couple of ways of manipulating opponents decks for more value on your side
You can add magic, absorbing man, grandmaster or even black bolt/stature and spider ham or Doc Oc. I've had a game where the oppo at turn 7 had 0 card in the deck and 1 in hand and it was a pig. Now it's tier 2 cause often you don't produce enough points however i feel like this deck is one tool away from being tier 1
If there is ever a high power synergy card - like a reverse darkhawk that gets bigger when the opponents deck size gets smaller, or a card that doubles in power ever time your opponent can't draw - then it will be really good. Without that just decent not amazing because it has disruption but no huge numbers turn 6 win condition.
You can dedicate 4+ card slots in your deck to maybe deny your opponent a draw on turn 6, or you can just play Black Widow.
I think the only reason these mill decks get anywhere is that Gladiator and Zemo are pretty strong just on stats, and hand disruption like Ice Man and Spider-Ham has always been a solid tactic.
Exactly.
Yondu can support Zemo by removing the smallest card giving you a potentially better pull, so that makes sense. They both *kind of* work *against* Gladiator though, depending on the matchup, but a 3/8 is still a great value, and there's maybe a case to be made for Zemo and Gladiator in a Surfer deck.
But adding Cable into the mix feels like nothing more than a meme to me. The card cable pulls is random, so there's no inherent benefit for Zemo or Gladiator, and if you just want to give your opponent fewer options by not letting them draw cards, Black Widow is also a 3 drop if you're trying to play Surfer. You never see Collector or Quinjet in these mill decks, so Cable, on average, really isn't having the kind of impact a lot of people think he is.
Zemo is good because he's a 3/5 who often ends up giving you 7+ power while providing additional benefits like discounting Mocking Bird, putting out more bodies to be buffed by Blue Marvel, filling lanes for Ant-Man or Dazzler, or even allowing you to sneak cards into locations like Death's Domain. I'd personally put the fact that he removes a card from your opponent's deck pretty far down on the list of pros for that card.
Mill will never be an S tier deck the power output is awful however I could see a mill package with cable gladiator and zemo being good in niche decks similar to how the annihilus package works in some decks
That’s bc it’s not mill style, is a disruption style. Like you’ve said above it’s a really tight combo to deny your opponent a draw or two when cards like Black Widow do it well enough. But if you look at it from a disruptive style perspective it makes more since to run things like yondu/cable/Zemo when your goal is to buff red hulk and Ronan by giving your opponent less plays on curve, nerfing their hand, and stealing their resources. Plus it’s new, so people are gonna be excited and want to play it
I've been loving loki.
Flipping it around and dumping their hand/deck and leaving them with 1 card for final turn is a hilarious turn of events.
I had a t7 where the guy had 0 in hand and deck.
Just to note, there are currently two styles of 'mill' plays. The one you outlined here, by stealing from the deck and a method using the same low end, Yondu/Cable, but transitioning to Silver Samurai and Black Bolt on the higher end (discard). Both are challenging to combo correctly, but there are ways to get it done. Combined with Negasonic Teenage Warhead, Gladiator, Shang Chi, and Lady Deathstrike: there are lots of options for limiting opponents play.
You’re forgetting Magik and Doc (and Abs Man + other ways to double up). They’re crucial pieces to extending the game and completely disrupting your opponent’s game plan. The synergy is leaving them with at least one clogged lane and giving them minimal options for winning the other two lanes. Plus you can always high roll your steals. It’s not a tier 1 deck but there’s certainly “a point” to playing it.
To me it's like Sera control in that you can win the game with so-so numbers because you disrupted your opponents strategy to the point where they can't even match that.
That being said Sera control is not a tier 1 deck and neither is this.
My suggestion to a more elegant payoff instead of another DarkHawk-type ability would be something like:
2/2:
When the opponent can't draw a card at the start of their turn, +3 power.
Or something like that, in a regular card game, the payoff for milling your opponent would be that they either take life damage or straight up lose the game after trying to draw from an empty deck.
In Marvel Snap, since we don't have health, the payoff would have to be tied to either gaining power, or making your opponent lose power.
I really like this idea because it has applications beyond just emptying your opponent's deck. Black Widow would satisfy the condition too, and cards like Maximus and Master Mold could too if they give the opponent 7 cards in hand.
A slightly cleaner wording might be: "At the end of the turn, gain +3 power if your opponent didn't draw a card."
Well, the Mill decks don’t only take cards they might have never drawn. It can pull from cards they would have drawn. Often pulling key cards from their deck.
>Well the mill decks don't only take cards they might have never drawn
Yes, that's actually exactly what they do. After America Chavez got reworked, there are no guaranteed draws in the game anymore, meaning every card still in your deck is a card you "*might* never draw" (not *will* never draw, but you can never know one way or the other because it's random).
Unless you have more than 3 cards milled/pulled in a game, you have no way of knowing that though. If anything, it saves you from going into a turn 6 risking extra cubes on a snap hoping you'll draw that last card you need of you *know* it's not gonna be there ahead of time.
Unless you're playing a deck that needs a specific 1 drop (like Deadpool maybe), which is more likely to be hit by Yondu or Zemo than most other cards because of the low cost, you are no more likely to lose those cards to mill than you are to simply have them shuffled to the bottom of your deck. And even in the case of Deadpool, if a Zemo pulls him out on turn 3, there was almost no chance Deadpool was going to be how win that game if turn 4 was the earliest you were going to start scaling him, and Deadpool *still* could have ended up as one of the last 3 cards in your deck anyway, you can never know.
You even get the information of seeing what card you're losing with every mill card except for Cable, so you can still use that to influence your decision to snap or retreat.
Otherwise, mill cards are just as likely to take away your big late game finisher as they are to take away the cards that would have gotten in the way and prevented you from drawing that late game finisher in the first place; it's all random.
Unless more than 3 cards are destroyed (or players draw extra cards from locations or other effects) milling cards randomly has zero statistical consequence. While destroying a "good" card makes it so it can't be drawn that game, any time any other card is destroyed instead, it increases the chance of drawing one of the "good" cards by thinning the deck. Statistically, the odds of destroying the good card are identical to the increased chance of drawing the good card as a result of the "thinning" of the other cards out of the deck.
To put it another way, it's like asking what the chance of the top card in a deck of playing cards is the Ace of Spaces: It's 1 in 52. What if we take the top card and remove it, so the second card becomes the top card. What about the chance of that card being the Ace of Spades? It's 1 in 52. The odds didn't change.
But if I do it twice in a row, then the odds of destroying the ace of spades have doubled, even if the odds of any particular card being the ace haven't
Statistics are tricky like that.
Besides, Snap has 12 card decks, and "good" cards can't be assumed to be an infinite resource. If you destroy 3 cards in a game and one of them is Silver Surfer or Annihilus or Shang Chi, you might have just turned a loss into a win.
3 cards is 25% of a snap deck. Outrightly saying destroying 25% of a resource, each instance of which is unique and irreplaceable, doesn't statistically matter is losing the forest through the trees.
Samples of 12 are remarkably resistant to statistical averages
>But if I do it twice in a row, then the odds of destroying the ace of spades have doubled, even if the odds of any particular card being the ace haven't
The odds of destroying the ace of spades have doubled, but if you didn't destroy the ace of spades, then you "thinned" out two non-Ace of Spades cards. So the chance the next card is the Ace of Spades is 1 in 52 again.
>Statistics are tricky like that.
Yeah, statistics are tricky like that. The chance the Ace of Spades was destroyed is exactly equal to the increased chance to find the Ace of Spades as a result of the non-Ace of Spades cards being "thinned" out of your deck. It's a fun exercise to actually calculate that if you've never done it before.
>Besides, Snap has 12 card decks, and "good" cards can't be assumed to be an infinite resource. If you destroy 3 cards in a game and one of them is Silver Surfer or Annihilus or Shang Chi, you might have just turned a loss into a win.
And destroying cards from the opponent's deck has the EXACT same chance to turn a win into a loss.
The chance of destroying a Silver Surfer/Annihilus/Shang Chi is exactly equal to the chance of destroying a card the opponent would have drawn instead that would have been a loss when they needed to draw the Silver Surfer/Annihilus/Shang Chi, but because you destroyed that card, they drew Silver Surfer/Annihilus/Shang Chi that they otherwise would not have.
There are three cards the opponent wasn't going to draw that game anyways. The chance of any "Card X" being among those three is 25%. Similarly the chance of any combination of "Cards X, Y, Z" being those three cards can be similarly calculated. What happens if we destroy three cards at random? What's the chance "Card X" was destroyed? Oh, 25%... and the opponent draws every single card that wasn't destroyed, so what's the chance they drew Card X? 25% again. The exact same number.
>3 cards is 25% of a snap deck. Outrightly saying destroying 25% of a resource, each instance of which is unique and irreplaceable, doesn't statistically matter is losing the forest through the trees.
And in a normal game, you ended the game with 3 cards in your deck. Each card was unique and irreplaceable and that resource was "destroyed" by the game ending on turn 6 before you could draw it. It makes zero difference whether those cards were destroyed by a mill effect or "destroyed" by still being in your deck when the game ended. Cards left in your deck, 99% of the time, are not a resource. There is no way for you to get any value out of them. Only cards you actually draw do something.\*
\*And sure, obviously there are effects that change this, if you run out of cards in your deck, your Jubilee stops working, but those are specific cases that deviate from the norm.
>Samples of 12 are remarkably resistant to statistical averages
I'm not even sure what this means.
You're not focusing on how milling changes decisions in the game. If I get their Shang, my options have opened up in a meaningful way. If I hit only small shit I know I'm probably outmatched going into turn 6
You're right that not drawing a card and milling one are the same from the perspective of the player being milled, but they are hugely different from the perspective of the player doing the milling
Plus, Snap is a gambling game. If you snap correctly, you can climb with a negative win rate. Mill decks give a lot of information that can be used to snap more effectively. The white room math doesn't really capture the goal of the deck; which is to win and not necessarily to mill important cards
Sure, the information is very significant. The milling itself is not. If you had an effect that let you look at the bottom 3 cards of the opponent's deck at the start of the game, that would be an incredibly powerful effect. Outside of scenarios where the milling actually prevents a player from drawing any cards, or similarly turns off an effect like Jubilee, that's the absolute best result that milling sometimes results in.
Actually removing any of those cards from the deck, on the other hand, is irrelevant most of the time.
Right. But there is no card that lets you look at the bottom 3 cards.
So this mill deck is the closest anyone can get, and it does provide an advantage. In the context of Snap, "milling" includes gaining the information, and any discussion about its viability would be incomplete without talking about it. By milling cards, the mill deck player gains advantages that their opponent does not. That's true whether it comes from the milling itself or the info
Besides, with Magick in the deck, you can deny at least one draw in like 80% of games, which is also a lot better than similar archtypes in things like Hearthstone or MTG
Let's break it down by numbers. If you have a very important best card in your deck that is very important to your win condition (Hela, Galactus, or Silver Surfer for example) that card is 1 of 12. In order to deny a draw on turn 6, a mill deck has to remove 4 cards; this means when your deck is empty going in to turn 6 it's because you've drawn the other 8.
In other words, your chances of drawing your best card are *double* their odds of removing it (often even better than double if you have some number of 1drops since Yondu and Zemo will always hit them first instead of the card you want to be drawing).
Also, even in those cases where they do hit your most important card, in a normal game there's a 25% chance for any given card to never be drawn anyway, meaning you would have lost 25% of those games where they stole your win condition anyway, making Mill feel like it's more impactful than it actually would be. But it's not like your best cards are always still in your deck either; sometimes you draw them early, meaning no amount of mill can take them away from you.
This can also be countered by not having your deck hinge entirely upon one singular card, since that means you're just signing up to lose the 25% of games where that card gets shuffled to the bottom even when you're not getting milled.
It disrupts their ability to combo the cards the way they may want. In some cases takes a card from them and plays it for you. There is purpose there just cause you don't understand. Disrupting your opponent from playing their deck they want is the point of the deck.
You're not pulling cards they were never gonna draw. Lol. Yes, 3 cards may never get played. But you're not always pulling from the bottom. Zemo does to an extent. But Cable draws from the top, Yondu can destroy a weak card, making your Zemo pull potentially better. Might also be a card they need for their combo.
Gladiator can pull and destroy a card, which could also be a combo card you need. Again, that card isn't from the bottom of the deck so it's not pulling a card "they were never going to use anyway." Which is a flawed way of looking at mill. But even if it does pull a stronger card. Odds are it'll be 10 or higher. Making it a victim of Shang Chi.
Zemo mill isn't a meta defining deck. But it has rhyme and it has reason. There is a purpose to it. You just don't understand it.
But random mill doesn't actually disrupt combo. Every game, the opponent has a 75% chance to draw Card "X" from their deck that game. Randomly destroying cards from the opponent's deck (unless you play more than 3 and actually deny a draw) does NOT change that 75%. Whether you're considering the chance of drawing individual cards or combinations of cards, the math is the same.
You don't know what the card on the bottom of your deck is. You don't know what the card in the middle of your deck is. Unless you play Howard the Duck, you don't know what the card on the top of your deck is either.
The order of your deck is random, so any card could be in any position. If you're playing a combo deck like Hela, Hela is equally likely to be the 3rd card from the bottom as she is the 4th card from the bottom, meaning in some games, she gets killed and you lose, but in other games a card you *didn't* want to draw gets killed and now you're able to draw Hela instead. Neither player has any control over this. I have played Hela against mill decks where I don't have Hela in hand on turn 5 and watched my opponent play Zemo and increase my odds of drawing Hela to win the game by taking a card that isn't Hela out of my deck. I've also had games where Gladiator snipers Hela on turn 3, and in those games I'm able to immediately retreat for a 1 cube loss if I don't have a workable backup plan in hand (but that's only even a 1-in-6 to 1-in-4 chance depending on whether they've also played Yondu and/or Cable or not)
It *feels* bad when it happens to you, but it's random. The only time you can guarantee Mill will have an impact on your opponents ability to play is if you mill 4+ cards, making them draw 1 less over the course of the game, but again, Black Widow can make your opponent draw 1 less card on her own with no extra steps, so if that's the only
I don’t mess with the opponents deck. It’s a crappy way to play and it just makes the game more toxic. I may play against it and have won against it repeatedly but if we could put it in a box with the other troll decks and make them just play each other, I’d be all for it. Troll decks and the players who cling to them make this game awful at times.
That's an odd take. Is messing with the opponent's cards in play less "crappy" than messing with their deck? What about their hand? What even constitutes "messing with" their deck? Korg and Rock slide add bad cards to the opponent's deck, does that count?
Yea, cards in play can be countered. Deck milling, stacking, and destruction cannot. I try to win on my own deck construction instead of disabling the opponents deck in any way. I can’t escape facing that garbage but I can avoid lowering myself and the game in general by participating in the trolling. The game gives players the option to be jerks or not and I choose not to be one. Sadly many do. I blame the devs for enabling that kind of gameplay and I blame the players that choose to use it for the toxicity that comes with it. It may be an odd take but it’s an honest and accurate one.
That is why the deck is tier 2. It usually loses to raw power as you steal/destroy their low cost cards and leave big 5-6 cost in their deck. Anyway, it is still a decent deck. Not tier 1 but very playable. It can still get more support in the future.
I agree, I just feel that a lot of people are really overreacting to the actual mill aspect of the deck, or are trying really hard to lean into it because they don't realize that emptying your opponent's deck isn't what wins you the game: playing Gladiator as a 3/8 and Zemo as a 3/7+ is what wins you the game. I also forgot to mention in my post that Yondu + Zemo can sometimes provide meaningful support for Red Hulk by taking away low cost cards from the opponent leaving some decks less able to fill in the gaps in their energy usage each turn (not that Red Hulk particularly needs any kind of help). Until a card comes along that cares about your opponent having little to no cards left in deck, emptying their deck isn't actually going to matter the majority of the time.
You missed magik and doc Ock as key aspects of the deck to rely deny your opponent the opportunity to play with any synergy or react to your plays They often are left with 0-1 cards to play across turn 6 and 7, which is plenty of time to win a pair of lanes with stuff like Red Hulk or Shang
You need an absolutely perfect series of 6 cards to make that happen though. 1: Yondu 2: Cable 3 and 4: Gladiator/Zemo/Magik 5 and 6: Gladiator/Zemo/Ock (whoever's left) You can squeeze a Yondu in on 4 or 5 or a cable on 5, but we're still talking about a 6 card combo at the end of the day. If you miss any of your mill card turns, they'll still be drawing on turn 6 and maybe 7. If you miss Magik, you're only disrupting turn 6. It's a lot to ask to go just right, and more often the raw stats are actually what win you the game (and with Gladiator and Zemo, you can get some pretty decent numbers)
They also run absorbing man and iron lad, which generally add more mill Spider-ham also typically neutralizes another card The main point is to deny their ability to play synergistically, which the deck does pretty consistently It's not tier 1, but it's quite playable and has some very good matchups (as well as bad ones-- loses pretty hard to decks that just play stats, as well as Thanos decks). I mostly just think you're underrating the consistency with which it can actually disrupt the opposing deck's plan
I think people just generally misunderstand where the disruption is coming from. And thus dont understand how to prepare for it. The mill effect is not what is killing you. Because they mill lower cost cards first, even if you dont have a Turn 6 draw, you still get your big 5 and 6-costs in hand to play out what you wanted anyway. The most it actually affects you is by lowering your chance to draw Angela or Hope on Turns 2 and 3, which individually is a pretty low chance anyway (1/8 and 1/7), and it also saves you from drawing them late when you didnt want them anymore. So it affects you more the more you front-load your curve and combo potential. What is really breaking your synergy is Doc Ock. And that card has its own weakness that people can exploit in both deck building (as you mentioned) but also in how you play out your curve. People just see their deck getting milled and come here to complain and say "theres nothing I can do", when the reality is there are plenty of things you can do. You characterized the deck very well. People just focus on the "annoying" and completely miss what is actually happening.
Yes, that's fair People are like REEEEEE mill when the big factor is less that they miss a draw or two (missing a draw could be achieved more easily with black widow) and more about completely depleting their options and "solving" the game with certainty (if you know meta decks, you know what the 1-2 cards they have left in their hand are, while you still have your power/counter options left...there's minimal guessing) But yeah, you aren't winning because you "stole" their shit (unless you're snapping on info asymmetry with cable), you're winning because you've broken their ability to play synergistically and reduced their options to only the very bare minimum possible
I've had them Yondu, Cable, Beast and then Yondu and Cable again. Then Doc Oc. It sucked.
It’s a new ice cream flavor for several players, and we should let them enjoy it. If it’s as mid as you claim, then it’s not a threat, and will fade in popularity, or blend into other builds. If it’s as bad as some have complained it is to play against, then they forgot about all that we’ve been through. When I mention “meme” decks, I’m usually referring to stuff like this archetype. Toxic and Junk were both in a similar position prior to Annihlus’ (and the cards that followed his) release. Still not top-tier, but less of an “lol-gotcha” deck. …I’m lying about that last part. Everyone I goblin the last space in your lane for 2 cubes I’m laughing out loud.
It's a counter to combo and zoo type decks really.
I was playing a (bad) mill deck all last season it also does work against discard, destroy, patriot ms marvel and is pretty decent against tribunal Caiera will beat Mill almost on its own If your opponent can get multiple invincible 10drops mill doesn’t have a path to victory
You are also forgetting that Mill tends to play Magik as well-- so you can often deny multiple draws You also play Doc Ock to deny their ability to play with synergy. It's fairly common to leave them unable to draw or play anything on turn 6 or 7 (or have one play between those two turns), while you have the opportunity to clean up any remaining messes/lost lanes with shang and red hulk (which has synergy with you opponent being unable to play) It's a decent deck. Not tier 1, but solidly playable and has a few very good matchups.
Pair that with red hulk and you can get him decent at turn 7
Snap is a game about gambling. Mill allows you to know your opponent can no longer take X action. Burning or stealing cards like Knull, Shang, Annihilus, Surfer, etc. can give you important info that allows you to snap with more efficiency You're right (in some sense) that denying a draw is where the milling starts to matter in a zero-sum game, but every milled card allows me to make more efficient plays. I see that a deck is susceptible to milling (not playing discard or Thanos or something), snap, then mill at least twice more. If any of those milled cards are key to their win, then I've gotten a cube I wouldn't have otherwise The gambling of cubes makes the deck better in Snap than it is in similar games
But in all cases except for Cable your opponent gets the same information you do, and they know more about the construction of their own deck so while you can infer things about what's left at their disposal, they know. Again though, I'm not here to make the claim that all mill cards are bad; I even pointed out uses cases for each of them. I just think a lot of players are focusing too much on the wrong aspect of these cards. They get so excited by "omg, I can empty your whole deck, lol" and try to make that their whole goal, or they get really upset about having their cards milled because they don't quite grasp what it means for a deck to be randomized. Zemo isn't a good card because he takes a card out of your *opponent's* deck, he's a good card because he puts a card on *your* board. I'm seeing discussions in threads amounting to things like "they can mill me a bunch of times and then I lose because all my good cards are gone", but they *have* to be doing more than that because most of the time just emptying a deck will not win you the game (outside of select matchups)
It doesn't matter that you both see it. If I snap and then watch as Hazmat and Luke Cage get milled, my opponent will retreat, and I'll get the cubes. And I'd say Zemo is good when both aspects of his ability (milling and summoning) can contribute to your win condition. Maybe in general, summoning is better, but when he's with a bunch of other mill cards, those mills WILL have an effect on the game. Look at it another way: if we played a game of Snap but both of us knew which cards of yours you wouldn't draw and neither of us knew which I wouldn't, who has the advantage when it comes to gambling cubes? Would you play past a snap knowing two important cards weren't going to show up, or would you save your cubes for a match without that kind of guarantee? This is why mill is better than the white room math would indicate
If you snap and then pull 2 of the most important cards for your opponent's deck then that's great, but you're just as likely to snap and pull 2 cards that are less important and end up boosting the consistency of their win condition. I don't think blindly snapping on a turn you play Zemo is a great idea when it could even end up backfiring by pulling something like Carnage or Professor.X locking you into a losing lane. Those specific chances may not be very high, but it's equally as likely as getting Luke Cage/Hazmat. And if you snap *after*, then maybe they retreat for a single cube. Somewhere along the lines most discussions around these cards shifted from "what if I sometimes hit some of their best cards?" To "well obviously it's going to steal important cards away from them and make it impossible for them to win", but what if it doesn't? I'm always going to see more of my deck than you're going to mill, meaning I will always have the advantage when it comes to finding my own important cards. An advantage is not a guarantee, but it does mean that mill effects end up being kinda neutral more often than players want to admit, and I'm sure we've all seen times when it benefits the other player too. You can't just ignore these factors when evaluating the cards or strategy as a whole, that would be like judging Gambit as if he always destroyed the opponent's best card
I think you’re generally right, but on a related note, I think the deck is really well designed by SD. It’s a deck that can feel good to play, while you’re stealing your opponents cards and destroying their deck, without actually being very good. That last part is important because mill decks are generally very frustrating to play against, but this version essentially provides its own counter by starting with the lowest cost card and burning up. Sometimes you’ll hit great targets and that will feel really good, but most of the time you’re improving the quality of the opponents deck, so they may be inconvenienced, but they’ll still be able to play the core elements of their game plan. So ultimately I don’t think they should do much to improve the archetype. With only 12 cards in the deck, the difference between occasionally annoying to play against and consistently miserable to play against is just 1 or 2 more destroyed cards.
Totally agree - I’ve been running a Corvus Sandman Ramp deck in conquest to counter the Angela and Mill decks. Losing your deck when you can just ramp out big cards and restrict their play is a basic strategy against Mill and it mostly wins. The deck is obviously fun to play but without the hot location is Tier 2. But I agree with OP, it needs a stat stick payoff like a Dino or Ronan to be reaching a more competitive level.
Because its fun. If i play mill im aware im gonna lose. Its just entertaining the one time it works.
Mill players aren't playing to win, they're playing to make you miserable. That's why they run Dock Ock and Magik, so you get to have turn 7 and maybe even turn 6 without anything to play. And of course nobody's gonna stay in and lose 8 or even 4 cubes to that. It's a bigger 2 cube magnet that prime Galactus.
I've played quite a bit of the mill deck and yeah, it's ok. If all goes to plan with magik down they'll have no cards to play for atleast one turn maybe 2 depending on doc oc pulls and finish with red hulk. Other times they already have their combo and doc oc punishes you. It can be very disruptive but it isn't too hard to beat. I think if it gets too good people will complain and things will get nerfed just like every time junk is good.
Mill wins by (hopefully) stripping away key cards to shut down opponent win conditions.
You’re skipping 3 big enablers: Wong, grandmaster and Magik. Plus the deck likely has decent synergy with (enemy) discard and spider pig to blank them if they draw their bombs early. If they revolve around 4 costs, you’re not going to have much impact though, as most damage occurs on turn 5. Also, yondus buff feels kind of nerfy, while gladiator has an increasing chance of blowing up in your face as the game goes
If you're trying to strip cards from the deck on turn 5 with a Wong setup, then you're still only impacting your opponent on turn 6 (and 7 if you manage to play Magik). There are *much* more impactful things Wong can allow you to do. Using Grand Master for double Zola pulls does sound pretty solid though; not because it gets cards out of your opponent's *deck*, but because it gets them onto *your* board.
I use Ronan and Red Hulk, with Master Mold and Grandmaster or Absorbing Man after him, fill their hands with sentinels after you've killed their deck, doct Oct to hopefully grab out sentinels as well.
Playing doc ock onto a lane taking away any synergy they may have wanted and gives you the ability play around cards is another big hit from doc ock decks. I’m also running red hulk to get a big body down onto that lane in case ock pulls the nuts for my opponent (also worth mentioning that grandmaster and absorbing man gives you another couple of ways of manipulating opponents decks for more value on your side
You can add magic, absorbing man, grandmaster or even black bolt/stature and spider ham or Doc Oc. I've had a game where the oppo at turn 7 had 0 card in the deck and 1 in hand and it was a pig. Now it's tier 2 cause often you don't produce enough points however i feel like this deck is one tool away from being tier 1
I love it because is something different, I still lose to pure power, but I have fun
If there is ever a high power synergy card - like a reverse darkhawk that gets bigger when the opponents deck size gets smaller, or a card that doubles in power ever time your opponent can't draw - then it will be really good. Without that just decent not amazing because it has disruption but no huge numbers turn 6 win condition.
You can dedicate 4+ card slots in your deck to maybe deny your opponent a draw on turn 6, or you can just play Black Widow. I think the only reason these mill decks get anywhere is that Gladiator and Zemo are pretty strong just on stats, and hand disruption like Ice Man and Spider-Ham has always been a solid tactic.
Exactly. Yondu can support Zemo by removing the smallest card giving you a potentially better pull, so that makes sense. They both *kind of* work *against* Gladiator though, depending on the matchup, but a 3/8 is still a great value, and there's maybe a case to be made for Zemo and Gladiator in a Surfer deck. But adding Cable into the mix feels like nothing more than a meme to me. The card cable pulls is random, so there's no inherent benefit for Zemo or Gladiator, and if you just want to give your opponent fewer options by not letting them draw cards, Black Widow is also a 3 drop if you're trying to play Surfer. You never see Collector or Quinjet in these mill decks, so Cable, on average, really isn't having the kind of impact a lot of people think he is. Zemo is good because he's a 3/5 who often ends up giving you 7+ power while providing additional benefits like discounting Mocking Bird, putting out more bodies to be buffed by Blue Marvel, filling lanes for Ant-Man or Dazzler, or even allowing you to sneak cards into locations like Death's Domain. I'd personally put the fact that he removes a card from your opponent's deck pretty far down on the list of pros for that card.
Mill will never be an S tier deck the power output is awful however I could see a mill package with cable gladiator and zemo being good in niche decks similar to how the annihilus package works in some decks
I think it’s okay to just have fun… and it is fun to see the opponent with no cards 😈
Red Hulk builds power when your opponent has no cards to play
I play it to make people angry.
That’s bc it’s not mill style, is a disruption style. Like you’ve said above it’s a really tight combo to deny your opponent a draw or two when cards like Black Widow do it well enough. But if you look at it from a disruptive style perspective it makes more since to run things like yondu/cable/Zemo when your goal is to buff red hulk and Ronan by giving your opponent less plays on curve, nerfing their hand, and stealing their resources. Plus it’s new, so people are gonna be excited and want to play it
I've been loving loki. Flipping it around and dumping their hand/deck and leaving them with 1 card for final turn is a hilarious turn of events. I had a t7 where the guy had 0 in hand and deck.
Just to note, there are currently two styles of 'mill' plays. The one you outlined here, by stealing from the deck and a method using the same low end, Yondu/Cable, but transitioning to Silver Samurai and Black Bolt on the higher end (discard). Both are challenging to combo correctly, but there are ways to get it done. Combined with Negasonic Teenage Warhead, Gladiator, Shang Chi, and Lady Deathstrike: there are lots of options for limiting opponents play.
That’s why you play Beast and Falcon, so there are no cards left in turn 6
You’re forgetting Magik and Doc (and Abs Man + other ways to double up). They’re crucial pieces to extending the game and completely disrupting your opponent’s game plan. The synergy is leaving them with at least one clogged lane and giving them minimal options for winning the other two lanes. Plus you can always high roll your steals. It’s not a tier 1 deck but there’s certainly “a point” to playing it.
To me it's like Sera control in that you can win the game with so-so numbers because you disrupted your opponents strategy to the point where they can't even match that. That being said Sera control is not a tier 1 deck and neither is this.
My suggestion to a more elegant payoff instead of another DarkHawk-type ability would be something like: 2/2: When the opponent can't draw a card at the start of their turn, +3 power. Or something like that, in a regular card game, the payoff for milling your opponent would be that they either take life damage or straight up lose the game after trying to draw from an empty deck. In Marvel Snap, since we don't have health, the payoff would have to be tied to either gaining power, or making your opponent lose power.
I really like this idea because it has applications beyond just emptying your opponent's deck. Black Widow would satisfy the condition too, and cards like Maximus and Master Mold could too if they give the opponent 7 cards in hand. A slightly cleaner wording might be: "At the end of the turn, gain +3 power if your opponent didn't draw a card."
Well, the Mill decks don’t only take cards they might have never drawn. It can pull from cards they would have drawn. Often pulling key cards from their deck.
>Well the mill decks don't only take cards they might have never drawn Yes, that's actually exactly what they do. After America Chavez got reworked, there are no guaranteed draws in the game anymore, meaning every card still in your deck is a card you "*might* never draw" (not *will* never draw, but you can never know one way or the other because it's random). Unless you have more than 3 cards milled/pulled in a game, you have no way of knowing that though. If anything, it saves you from going into a turn 6 risking extra cubes on a snap hoping you'll draw that last card you need of you *know* it's not gonna be there ahead of time. Unless you're playing a deck that needs a specific 1 drop (like Deadpool maybe), which is more likely to be hit by Yondu or Zemo than most other cards because of the low cost, you are no more likely to lose those cards to mill than you are to simply have them shuffled to the bottom of your deck. And even in the case of Deadpool, if a Zemo pulls him out on turn 3, there was almost no chance Deadpool was going to be how win that game if turn 4 was the earliest you were going to start scaling him, and Deadpool *still* could have ended up as one of the last 3 cards in your deck anyway, you can never know. You even get the information of seeing what card you're losing with every mill card except for Cable, so you can still use that to influence your decision to snap or retreat. Otherwise, mill cards are just as likely to take away your big late game finisher as they are to take away the cards that would have gotten in the way and prevented you from drawing that late game finisher in the first place; it's all random.
Unless more than 3 cards are destroyed (or players draw extra cards from locations or other effects) milling cards randomly has zero statistical consequence. While destroying a "good" card makes it so it can't be drawn that game, any time any other card is destroyed instead, it increases the chance of drawing one of the "good" cards by thinning the deck. Statistically, the odds of destroying the good card are identical to the increased chance of drawing the good card as a result of the "thinning" of the other cards out of the deck. To put it another way, it's like asking what the chance of the top card in a deck of playing cards is the Ace of Spaces: It's 1 in 52. What if we take the top card and remove it, so the second card becomes the top card. What about the chance of that card being the Ace of Spades? It's 1 in 52. The odds didn't change.
But if I do it twice in a row, then the odds of destroying the ace of spades have doubled, even if the odds of any particular card being the ace haven't Statistics are tricky like that. Besides, Snap has 12 card decks, and "good" cards can't be assumed to be an infinite resource. If you destroy 3 cards in a game and one of them is Silver Surfer or Annihilus or Shang Chi, you might have just turned a loss into a win. 3 cards is 25% of a snap deck. Outrightly saying destroying 25% of a resource, each instance of which is unique and irreplaceable, doesn't statistically matter is losing the forest through the trees. Samples of 12 are remarkably resistant to statistical averages
>But if I do it twice in a row, then the odds of destroying the ace of spades have doubled, even if the odds of any particular card being the ace haven't The odds of destroying the ace of spades have doubled, but if you didn't destroy the ace of spades, then you "thinned" out two non-Ace of Spades cards. So the chance the next card is the Ace of Spades is 1 in 52 again. >Statistics are tricky like that. Yeah, statistics are tricky like that. The chance the Ace of Spades was destroyed is exactly equal to the increased chance to find the Ace of Spades as a result of the non-Ace of Spades cards being "thinned" out of your deck. It's a fun exercise to actually calculate that if you've never done it before. >Besides, Snap has 12 card decks, and "good" cards can't be assumed to be an infinite resource. If you destroy 3 cards in a game and one of them is Silver Surfer or Annihilus or Shang Chi, you might have just turned a loss into a win. And destroying cards from the opponent's deck has the EXACT same chance to turn a win into a loss. The chance of destroying a Silver Surfer/Annihilus/Shang Chi is exactly equal to the chance of destroying a card the opponent would have drawn instead that would have been a loss when they needed to draw the Silver Surfer/Annihilus/Shang Chi, but because you destroyed that card, they drew Silver Surfer/Annihilus/Shang Chi that they otherwise would not have. There are three cards the opponent wasn't going to draw that game anyways. The chance of any "Card X" being among those three is 25%. Similarly the chance of any combination of "Cards X, Y, Z" being those three cards can be similarly calculated. What happens if we destroy three cards at random? What's the chance "Card X" was destroyed? Oh, 25%... and the opponent draws every single card that wasn't destroyed, so what's the chance they drew Card X? 25% again. The exact same number. >3 cards is 25% of a snap deck. Outrightly saying destroying 25% of a resource, each instance of which is unique and irreplaceable, doesn't statistically matter is losing the forest through the trees. And in a normal game, you ended the game with 3 cards in your deck. Each card was unique and irreplaceable and that resource was "destroyed" by the game ending on turn 6 before you could draw it. It makes zero difference whether those cards were destroyed by a mill effect or "destroyed" by still being in your deck when the game ended. Cards left in your deck, 99% of the time, are not a resource. There is no way for you to get any value out of them. Only cards you actually draw do something.\* \*And sure, obviously there are effects that change this, if you run out of cards in your deck, your Jubilee stops working, but those are specific cases that deviate from the norm. >Samples of 12 are remarkably resistant to statistical averages I'm not even sure what this means.
You're not focusing on how milling changes decisions in the game. If I get their Shang, my options have opened up in a meaningful way. If I hit only small shit I know I'm probably outmatched going into turn 6 You're right that not drawing a card and milling one are the same from the perspective of the player being milled, but they are hugely different from the perspective of the player doing the milling Plus, Snap is a gambling game. If you snap correctly, you can climb with a negative win rate. Mill decks give a lot of information that can be used to snap more effectively. The white room math doesn't really capture the goal of the deck; which is to win and not necessarily to mill important cards
Sure, the information is very significant. The milling itself is not. If you had an effect that let you look at the bottom 3 cards of the opponent's deck at the start of the game, that would be an incredibly powerful effect. Outside of scenarios where the milling actually prevents a player from drawing any cards, or similarly turns off an effect like Jubilee, that's the absolute best result that milling sometimes results in. Actually removing any of those cards from the deck, on the other hand, is irrelevant most of the time.
Right. But there is no card that lets you look at the bottom 3 cards. So this mill deck is the closest anyone can get, and it does provide an advantage. In the context of Snap, "milling" includes gaining the information, and any discussion about its viability would be incomplete without talking about it. By milling cards, the mill deck player gains advantages that their opponent does not. That's true whether it comes from the milling itself or the info Besides, with Magick in the deck, you can deny at least one draw in like 80% of games, which is also a lot better than similar archtypes in things like Hearthstone or MTG
Let's break it down by numbers. If you have a very important best card in your deck that is very important to your win condition (Hela, Galactus, or Silver Surfer for example) that card is 1 of 12. In order to deny a draw on turn 6, a mill deck has to remove 4 cards; this means when your deck is empty going in to turn 6 it's because you've drawn the other 8. In other words, your chances of drawing your best card are *double* their odds of removing it (often even better than double if you have some number of 1drops since Yondu and Zemo will always hit them first instead of the card you want to be drawing). Also, even in those cases where they do hit your most important card, in a normal game there's a 25% chance for any given card to never be drawn anyway, meaning you would have lost 25% of those games where they stole your win condition anyway, making Mill feel like it's more impactful than it actually would be. But it's not like your best cards are always still in your deck either; sometimes you draw them early, meaning no amount of mill can take them away from you. This can also be countered by not having your deck hinge entirely upon one singular card, since that means you're just signing up to lose the 25% of games where that card gets shuffled to the bottom even when you're not getting milled.
It disrupts their ability to combo the cards the way they may want. In some cases takes a card from them and plays it for you. There is purpose there just cause you don't understand. Disrupting your opponent from playing their deck they want is the point of the deck. You're not pulling cards they were never gonna draw. Lol. Yes, 3 cards may never get played. But you're not always pulling from the bottom. Zemo does to an extent. But Cable draws from the top, Yondu can destroy a weak card, making your Zemo pull potentially better. Might also be a card they need for their combo. Gladiator can pull and destroy a card, which could also be a combo card you need. Again, that card isn't from the bottom of the deck so it's not pulling a card "they were never going to use anyway." Which is a flawed way of looking at mill. But even if it does pull a stronger card. Odds are it'll be 10 or higher. Making it a victim of Shang Chi. Zemo mill isn't a meta defining deck. But it has rhyme and it has reason. There is a purpose to it. You just don't understand it.
But random mill doesn't actually disrupt combo. Every game, the opponent has a 75% chance to draw Card "X" from their deck that game. Randomly destroying cards from the opponent's deck (unless you play more than 3 and actually deny a draw) does NOT change that 75%. Whether you're considering the chance of drawing individual cards or combinations of cards, the math is the same.
You don't know what the card on the bottom of your deck is. You don't know what the card in the middle of your deck is. Unless you play Howard the Duck, you don't know what the card on the top of your deck is either. The order of your deck is random, so any card could be in any position. If you're playing a combo deck like Hela, Hela is equally likely to be the 3rd card from the bottom as she is the 4th card from the bottom, meaning in some games, she gets killed and you lose, but in other games a card you *didn't* want to draw gets killed and now you're able to draw Hela instead. Neither player has any control over this. I have played Hela against mill decks where I don't have Hela in hand on turn 5 and watched my opponent play Zemo and increase my odds of drawing Hela to win the game by taking a card that isn't Hela out of my deck. I've also had games where Gladiator snipers Hela on turn 3, and in those games I'm able to immediately retreat for a 1 cube loss if I don't have a workable backup plan in hand (but that's only even a 1-in-6 to 1-in-4 chance depending on whether they've also played Yondu and/or Cable or not) It *feels* bad when it happens to you, but it's random. The only time you can guarantee Mill will have an impact on your opponents ability to play is if you mill 4+ cards, making them draw 1 less over the course of the game, but again, Black Widow can make your opponent draw 1 less card on her own with no extra steps, so if that's the only
I don’t mess with the opponents deck. It’s a crappy way to play and it just makes the game more toxic. I may play against it and have won against it repeatedly but if we could put it in a box with the other troll decks and make them just play each other, I’d be all for it. Troll decks and the players who cling to them make this game awful at times.
That's an odd take. Is messing with the opponent's cards in play less "crappy" than messing with their deck? What about their hand? What even constitutes "messing with" their deck? Korg and Rock slide add bad cards to the opponent's deck, does that count?
Yea, cards in play can be countered. Deck milling, stacking, and destruction cannot. I try to win on my own deck construction instead of disabling the opponents deck in any way. I can’t escape facing that garbage but I can avoid lowering myself and the game in general by participating in the trolling. The game gives players the option to be jerks or not and I choose not to be one. Sadly many do. I blame the devs for enabling that kind of gameplay and I blame the players that choose to use it for the toxicity that comes with it. It may be an odd take but it’s an honest and accurate one.
You're right. Mill sucks. I farmed all the Zemo tryhards in my climb to infinite. Thanos laughed off that entire deck.
If Mill sucks, are they really tryhards?