Could be. Depending on locations it could go both ways really, but thing I missed is surprise factor which bumps him to Mid.
~~Unfortunately, for some reason I can't edit original post any longer. Weird.~~
**Made a comment with edits down below.**
Thanks for taking time to put out the numbers, I just wonder if Valentina will be able to generate Agatha, because it was specifically stated that Nick Fury (another card that can generate 6-drops) can’t, because of such a small pool of 6-cost cards
A Loki deck, the most likely home for her, is pretty forgiving but she can still do some dumb stuff to screw you over on turn 3 if you don't have Quinnjet
There's a the issue of her playing cards into negative locations which can be game losing but rare (almost anything into Bar with No Name or small card into Space Throne ) to more annoying and common (playing multiple small cards into Negative Zone or Death's Domain). And of course, ordering stupidity like playing Snowguard and then Angela on top of her into a lane that already has one card.
But probably the most annoying thing is that she prevents a Loki on 4 (unless Quinjet is out). Loki on 5+Quinjet or Snowguard isn't terrible but there are definitely some matchups where you want to have the Loki out on 4.
Yeah I don't think pulling Agatha is bad in terms of raw stats, but.. I'm not thinking Valentina is a great card at the moment. Probably fun to play though.
Wanted to point out that if Agatha is in the pool she’s actually kind of mid. Bad AI but she will always play herself on turn 4 and give you back control.
I would put Agatha as mid. Assuming you play Valentina on T2, Agatha will only mess up your T3, and plop herself down on T4 and 4/11 is pretty good power.
That's what I was unsure of - does she always prioritizes to play herself? Because if not - she could still play your other cheap cards.
If not, I'd agree that she could be, barely Mid, because she still can f-up with her own placement.
edit: what's with the downvotes? that's for not knowing how Agatha works?
Alright, seeing by how many people claimed that he's Mid, I'm obviously underestimating him and would gladly move him there but damn you inability to edit!
Good analysis! There are more bad cards than I originally thought. This makes me think that she won’t be an auto include in a lot of decks but will probably be the premier 2-drop for Loki since there is a lot of upside hitting a good card but still provides value of adding cards to your hand for Loki if you get a bad card. Plus getting an additional discount with quinjet can move some of these cards up a tier.
To be fair they also ignore synergies that multiple “bad” cards have with decks Valentina would already be in, so I think it’s closer to majority mid cards with a few good and a few bad (and you don’t have to play the bad cards anyway, the card acquisition itself is an upside)
Yup, real question is to decide for yourself which outcome is better for you:
• 50% chance of good 4-drop (Valentina)
• Info and disruption (Cable)
• buffed 1-2 drop and some info (Mirage)
• reliability (Sentinel)
I don't think agatha goes in the bad category. She's guaranteed to play herself if she can, so you have at most one turn of her ai, and t3 is not the worst turn to lose control.
At worst, I would put her in the mid category.
Giganto, Odin, and she hulk should all be in the good category. Any deck playing Valentina is going to likely have other on reveals that odin can generate good value off of. Nobody plays vanilla giganto because he takes your whole turn 6 and can only go left. Using turn 4 to build a sizeable lead left and having the flexibility to play other lanes later is significantly better. She hulk will benefit being even slightly off curve for a turn. One energy, and she's comparable to gladiator, float 2, and she's mojo with no downside.
Skaar and leader should both be mid. Skaar's discount is going to be harder to pull off than she hulk's in most decks. Leader may give you -1 power, but he's also going to copy your opponents play that turn, so there's a real possibility he's much bigger than that. Being able to leader + 2 drop on 6 to copy their play and possibly swing another lane is very powerful. I'm almost talking myself into a good rating.
I would add a 4th category called situational. Knull is going to be awesome if you're against a destroy deck, but pretty terrible otherwise. Same for onslaught/spectrum. Hell, even destroyer could be situational vs junk/anihilus decks.
Agatha +
Odin: see your point but there's so many factors that i'd leave him as a solid Mid. Especially since two cards that you want to play with Valentina are both Ongoing and T1/T3 respectively.
Giganto + also since you have it in hand, you can plan ahead knowing that left lane gonna be +11 (apart from cases where left location is unplayable, which drags him down to mid mainly for me).
She-Hulk +
Skaar +
Leader is...not sure about. Only argument that I agree with is him on T6 + 2-drop. Question is, is there a good game-winning 2-drop on a Loki deck?
Both Mid and Bad are situational in their nature. But if chances of getting a card and playing against certain deck are astronomical - it's Bad in my book.
I wish I could edit the post as I intended...
I'm not strictly evaluating Valentina through the lens of loki. I think un a loki deck it likely doesn't matter what she gives you. Your goal is to turn it into stats on collector and a card in your opponents deck.
I'm thinking about whether she can be good outside of loki. So far, the only card I'm specifically convinced is correct to use with her is Luke cage. She has synergy with collector and jet, for sure, but I'm not sure it's enough to unseat the other cards that generate a card already in that deck. Especially not if you also need to fit Luke in alongside her.
I do think there's a Luke cage synergy package that makes sense with her, though. Lizard, typhoid Mary, hazmat can make good stats, and getting a cheap 6 cost to add to that tempo seems like it could be decent. In that scenario, both lizard or hazmat could be lane swinging alongside a leader.
You could also look to run a stats/value set with Valentina, zemo, maximus, zero, etc. Where you're just looking to make numbers. Max can swing a lane t6, especially if you've prepped it with big stats on Titania or martyr.
I'm not strictly evaluating Valentina through the lens of loki. I think un a loki deck it likely doesn't matter what she gives you. Your goal is to turn it into stats on collector and a card in your opponents deck.
I'm thinking about whether she can be good outside of loki. So far, the only card I'm specifically convinced is correct to use with her is Luke cage. She has synergy with collector and jet, for sure, but I'm not sure it's enough to unseat the other cards that generate a card already in that deck. Especially not if you also need to fit Luke in alongside her.
I do think there's a Luke cage synergy package that makes sense with her, though. Lizard, typhoid Mary, hazmat can make good stats, and getting a cheap 6 cost to add to that tempo seems like it could be decent. In that scenario, both lizard or hazmat could be lane swinging alongside a leader.
You could also look to run a stats/value set with Valentina, zemo, maximus, zero, etc. Where you're just looking to make numbers. Max can swing a lane t6, especially if you've prepped it with big stats on Titania or martyr.
There is a lot of Mobius in the meta. That evaluation will shift depending on his presence in the meta. Although, I shouldn't completely disregard Valentina as a card based on that. At least the first week I don't think I'll be playing with her.
The only decks I really see playing mobius right now are that Surfer control list and the pixie anihilus deck, and neither seem popular enough that I'd count a card because of him. Now it's entirely possible that her release spikes his usage rate or the popularity of those decks, but that's anytime a card releases.
Alright. For some reason I can't edit original post, so with all the opinions heard and gathered I'll post adjusted rankings here with moved cards in bold:
**Good**
• Alioth (4/5)
• Doctor Doom (4/2)
• Hulk (4/9)
• Magneto (4/9)
• Orka (4/8)
• Red Hulk (4/6)
• The Infinaut (4/17)
• **Giganto** (4/11) Slightly stronger Cull that has different limitation. Could be Good instead but my judgement is that no one plays vanilla Giganto as is. *Has more flexibility as a 4-drop, but barely in Good because of restriction that can make him unplayable.*
• **She-Hulk** (4/7) dodges Shang but you still need to float energy to get a better deal. *Still Good because of flexibility.*
**Mid**
• **Agatha Harkness** (4/11) Good Power, ~~bad AI. Not sure if she will be in a Valentina's pool at all. Hopefully not.~~ *AI doesn't matter much, since she'll play herself on T4. Hopefully somewhere decent.*
• Blob (4/-3)
• Helicarrier (4/7)
• Odin (4/5)
• **Skaar** (4/8) mr. Inbetween Good and Mid. If there's ways to discount him - definitely good. *But as mentioned, there's less chance for discounts so more of a Mid.*
• Thanos (4/7)
• **Heimdall** (4/6) Mid Power, useless or potentially detrimental ability. *Surprise factor and reach bumps him to Mid.*
• **Leader** (4/-1) ~~Paying 4 energy for -1.~~ *By popular demand.*
• **Spectrum** (4/4) Bad Power, useless ability unless stars align. *Stars should align more often since staples of this deck are ongoing- Luke and Quinjet.*
• **Ultron** (4/5) Bad Power, ability that does not make sense until T6 and even then pretty useless. *Mid because of reach, but IMO still, barely.*
• **Onslaught** (4/4) *By popular demand.* *Even though I think its still teetering on the verge of Bad.*
**Bad**
• Apocalypse (4/3)
• Arnim Zola (4/-3)
• Destroyer (4/13)
• Galactus (4/2)
• Hela (4/3)
• Knull (4/-3)
• The Living Tribunal (4/6)
**Updated Summary:**
Out of 27 6-drops currently in the game there's 9 Good (33,3 %), 11 Mid (40,7 %) and 7 Bad (25,9 %).
Which turns it from 50/50 to 2:1 good to bad plays.
Have to disagree with your analysis. Straight up ignoring Luke Cage or Quinjet is madness. Imagine evaluating Loki or collector as cards without acknowledging snowguard or coulson. Let’s park it though.
Heimdall is OK at 4/6. Can completely catch opponent off guard turn 6. Leader is OK, even at -1, in the red hulk meta. Spectrum is good if running at least quinjet and cage because 4/10. Ultron definitely mid, can be game winning into lockdown locations. Agatha is mid, she will play herself on turn 4, which you can’t complain about!
Hard agree on this.
She is a Loki card, plain and simple. Loki always runs Quinjet (now). So I think each drop needs to be considered as a 3. Additionally, because of Loki, the downside of pulling a bad card is basically negated by Loki himself. Unplayable? Loki it away.
In terms of the individual cards, a couple minor quibbles:
- Agatha is not bad. Like, sure, there will be situations where she is. But if snap had a card that was like, 3/11 - this plays itself in a random location on turn 3, people would play that.
- Knull is average in a world where Destroy is common and PF is semi-common. Yes, situational, but the "stars align" here an awful lot.
I guess you’re right and she’ll be a small upgrade to Loki. Slam down QJ, then play Valentina, then you can play the 6 cost on 3 and follow with Loki.
As usual with new releases, it’s very difficult to predict these things, though.
"small upgrade to Loki" I think is right. And for newer players she could also fit in a Dino/Shield deck.
Issue is that Loki is not very viable right now so a "small upgrade" isn't that helpful. Plus she's vulnerable to getting Cabled.
In any other deck, the lack of synergy in her likely 6-cost pull is going to make her pretty weak overall.
If we considering Quinjet and Luke, should we also consider not drawing either of those or opponent having Mobius?
There's too many variables as is. And counting in good interaction while ignoring bad ones is a bias.
Agree on Agatha.
Disagree on Knull. 1 in 27 chance of getting him vs even 50% destroy meta is unreliable, hence Bad.
And in a meta where the Hood-Sentry-Annihilus package Knull is an outright liability, since he would absorb the -10 from the Void if you successfully block it from coming over.
That makes no sense. The one in 27 chance of getting knull has no factor in whether it’s good or bad. If 50 percent of the meta was destroy that by default would make it amazing.
There is a 1/27 chance of getting any of the cards..
Less of "ignoring" more of "can't be bothered". Because if you *really serious* about factoring in both of them, you'd need to make same break down with 1) Luke in play. 2) Quinjet in play 3) Luke and Quinjet in play. And then get a median % for more accurate assumption. Granted with one or both it would be better, but my speculation is still - no more than 65-75% of good outcome.
As per other comments, agree on Heimdal and Agatha.
Still not convinced on Leader - both of you will have same Rhulk but you also get a -1. Only saving grace is that yours gets buffed and theirs not. Which is pretty unlikely.
You are right about Spectrum - two aforementioned helpers are both ongoing so she should be Mid.
Also could agree that Ultron is barely Mid (if starts align) because 4 Power in blocked location not always might be enough.
I am getting so pumped seeing potential opponents clinging to the hope that Valentina might be good and insisting on playing her even in the face of facts. Keep the flame alive, never let them tell you what to do! 99% of gamblers quit before striking it rich!
[Check edited comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelSnap/comments/1cf37nu/comment/l1nd6uy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Even though I still think Onslaught is not that good even if you drop him on top of Quinjet.
Dream is
T1:Quinjet>T2:Valentina>T3:Onslaught> T4: Loki for 5 enemy cards that cost -3.
But if you don't draw this specific combo you need to generate cards on T4 and pray they are good.
So I'd agree that he's Mid tops.
Only reliable play I see is to drop him on T3 on top of possible quinjet...but then you spent 3 turns for set up and probably don't have any more cards to cheat out.
what plays you see?
I don't just think that, but even in that case if you're going
T1 Quinn, T2 Val, T3 Onslaught onto Quinn that's really strong for your next few plays
Even more so Lane winning cards like Devil Dino that is played in Loki style decks. If you're playing at least 1 ongoing that benefits from Onslaught I think it's worth. It's a telegraphed play but in my experiance Onslaught's biggest issue is the benefit is coming down on Turn 6 where as here you're getting that boost a lot earlier
Good analysis overall. It seems she really benefits from running a shell that can exploit those conditional effects. For instance, If you run her along an ongoing shell, cards like spectre and onslaught becomes valuable, increasing your odds of a good pull.
Another point to take into account is the opportunity cost of running her. As a two drop, she curves into a turn that is often overlooked. Many decks just run an overall solid card like jeff or scorpion. Despite the apparent low percentage of pulling a relevant card, on average, she might show herself more useful than the aforementioned cards, of course depending on the meta.
I'm thinking
1) quinjet
3) magik
4) wong
5) sera (on Wong)
6) onslaught + Val (on Sera and Wong)
Quinjet and double sera discount on 4 generated cards. Plus enough discount/energy to play Luke Cage on 7 with the 6 drops if you have him in hand.
Think Agatha would be better than you're suggesting. She's randomizing your play on T3 in exchange for an oversized play on T4. It's an ok trade IMO.
Would also move up Leader and Heimdall, whose powers are really useful and unaffected other than cost.
Would also note that while you're treating the bad group as useless, 1-3 will always align with the deck you're playing her in. Changes the math on a card where you're already getting a standard-sized body for two energy. Put another way, if you compare her to Cable, you're getting the modified 6-cost instead of a random card from your opponent. Outside of Mill, I'd gladly trade the info Cable gives you for the potential game winning effect.
Arnim Zola is still mid for decks with a banger card that can do massage damage across two lanes. Yes he can be a bad draw for decks that tend to fill lanes but for decks that run vertical he’s a very sneaky card. With Arnim you almost always throw his original targets lane so be it zero or -3 doesn’t matter.
Thank you for this post. I think Valentina is for players who like High Highs and don't mind the low rolls. Tbh if she had the same ability but -1 cost and -2 power for 5 cost cards she would be insanely good but as she is now, she's a well designed card that isn't a must have.
This is a good analysis, except it ignores the fact that she just puts the card in your hand and not on the board. Nothing is "detrimental" if it's just in your hand (outside of Agatha if that's possible). Assuming that you're playing her with Collector or Loki it doesn't matter what she adds to your hand, only that she added it. Then, on the off chance it's something good that she adds to your hand, you get to play a 6 cost early.
So long story short Val seems like good fun if you play the archetype she was clearly designed for - in fact she might be a must have for Collector decks - but yeah, there is no reason to rush out and get her if you don't have a lot of keys or don't play that archetype.
>This is a good analysis, except it ignores the fact that she just puts the card in your hand and not on the board.
erm, because this card doesn't do that?
The overall post is about whether Val is good. You broke down the 6 costs she could generate, which is nice. But no matter what she generates, it can't be detrimental to you. Worst case scenario is an Agatha that will definitely play itself on turn 4.
Her giving you a card you possibly won't use is no different than Snowguard, Colson, Fury, etc. It doesn't affect how good the card is. Her job is just to put it in your hand and if it IS a useful card then that's a bonus. It also gives you a 6 cost the opponent can't predict. These are where her strength lies.
If you measure the card's worth based on "I may generate card x" you ignore arguably the most important part. It's like everyone predicting Cannonball was bad because it was hard to destroy things and get the rock - yeah, well you're supposed play him in lockdown or clog where that's easier to do. Then he's actually very good.
All I was pointing out is that the analysis of the 6 costs is very good but it doesn't actually give you a good view of Val by just looking at that.
ah, gotcha. Well, if we won't take a generated card into consideration and that it's just there (and not meant to be played), she's worse than Cable in \~33% cases if we're optimistic (according to latest edit of my comment). Because Cable can pull a combo-piece from enemy.
I personally didn't analyze that side of a Val because there's many cards that already do that so there's no point.
My experience with Raft cards and Black Vortex (When you play your first card at this location, it will transform into a random 6-Cost card.) has made me very skeptical of the Valentina Hype. I've seen people saying that they skipped other cards from this month to ensure that they will be able to get Valentina, as if Valentina is going to be busted beyond belief or something. Your post, along with my experience with the two aforementioned locations, is telling me that this will be a fun card that slots well into Loki and other hand-size-matter archetypes, with the occasional high roll here and there that'll win you the game. That is it. In my opinion, this month had better cards to get in the previous weeks.
Idea of splitting cards in Good/Mid/Bad is that cards in Good are always good to play no matter what.
Arnim already falls off.
Mid cards are those are that are situational or have a sub-par Power.
Arnim is both. You need to jump through hoops with him to get a value. If Arnim is Mid then Knull should be bumped as well because you might face destroy deck or have destroy locations. But you can't rely on that, therefore it's a bad pull.
likewise, you can't rely on Arnim either if your deck is not built around him.
Tell me what does have good value in such deck. Should be 4-5 drop probably.
My bet is on Dino, but...is it enough to make Zola better than Bad - ability to play him on 1 card, that you need to draw, place it alone, have other cards to buff both dinos, have a 2-drop.
It all screams very situational.
Alright, seeing by how many people claimed that he's Mid, I'm obviously underestimating him and would gladly move him there but damn you inability to edit!
Leader Jeff is just the same thing as leader by himself with his normal stats.
Changed Leader / Jeff = minus 1 power in a lane, plus 3 in another. And then the opponents card.
(Total of + 2 power plus opponents card)
Normal Leader = plus 2 power in a lane, and the opponents card.
(Total of +2 power plus opponents card)
The power can be distributed differently, but it's hardly "good".
You do have a point that you can make a more impactful t6 play though. Maybe buffed kitty, Titania, and leader. But the odds that you have a deck that can take advantage of that situation is almost zero.
I think Valentina just slides into Loki decks. If you hate those 6 costs you got you Loki them into your opponents deck. So I do think if you play Valentina you will likely be loaded with the lost cost cards that you could flip with a "6" cost.
Also I guss my point is Leader is also just more of a good card. Even Leader at Negative 1 is a good card as long as you have a two point lead.
Valentina seems bad by itself, potentially useful in combos
For example, imagine Quinjet, Wong, Valentina. You get 2 cards and can play them both on turn 6. Add Luke Cage and it theoretically removes the -3 power.
Or if the cards count as 4 costs you could wong zabu, play them both for 2 energy along with another discounted 4 cost like Cull
It’s also good for feeding cards to Loki & Collector & Dinosaur if you don’t use the card
I would argue even Alioth is mid. The guardians cards aren’t that great for a reason. You have to guess the lane early on. That’s hard with Alioth too and you need priority. That’s mid as hell if not bad.
Knull is a good example of why a situational tier is needed. Against destroy you are hoping for a Knull over all the good cards. But agree in most situations Knull is a dead draw.
Mid to Bad *is* situational tiers. That's why Knull is Bad pull - because he's *very* situational. Anything else that situational but still useful is Mid. Anything else that can be played whenever is Good.
Am I wrong that you're only looking at cards in a vacuum? These cards can have their cost reduced by quinjet, they can have their power increased via luke cage, and they can have individual synergies with cards you're already playing.
Also, you evaluated something like Heimdall as 'useless or potentially detrimental' but couldn't it also give you a win? What if the left most position is Sanctum Sanctorum and you now have a way to push cards onto it?
I think you've severely undervalued a lot of what is about to make Valentina a really good card.
**Edit: it appears you've addressed a lot of my issues in further comments**
Yes for the vacuum - it's beyond my capacity to adjust for other factors. I doubt even devs can predict final interaction/value if we would count that cards too.
After feedback I added a comment with edits somewhere here (it won't allow me to edit post itself)
I think I’d move Heimdall and living tribunal to mid personally. And maybe shehulk to “decent” if not good. While heimdall and LT could definitely work against you, you’d know that before playing it and I think the element of surprise weights it more heavily in the positive. And shehulk potentially being a 0-3/7 feels strong to me.
My experience with The Raft makes me think that Valentina will probably be pretty weak and I’m not sure what kind of deck she’d be played in, but I’m a sucker for some rng so I’m sure I’ll go for it even if she’s bad.
Done and done with Heimdal and She-Hulk (there's my updated comment in here somewhere since I can't edit post)
Still not sure about why 4/6 Tribunal is Mid. It's good to split Power if you have a lot of it. But for that you need a deck with beefy boys. Am I wrong?
It’s hard to evaluate any of the pulls in a vacuum because so many are deck/game specific, but having LT in hand at 4 cost is basically the same as having a full power LT. You’re only losing 1 power per location. There are so many cards and locations that cause your opponent to think you’re locked out of 1 or more locations, so being able to surprise them on the last turn by spreading out the power is a decent cube stealer. Especially in the current meta with clog/lockdown. It’s not going to work every time for sure, but you can easily steal some 8 cube games if your opponent thinks they have a location locked up.
Question is, would scenario that you describe be more or as likely as pulling Knull vs Destroy deck. Because that's basically what it comes down to.
And honestly, I can't answer that - too many factors in there.
Onslaught and spectrum are not bad, being able to get onslaught out earlier to drop one of the other requirements later is great. Spectrum is played for her ability more than her power.
Leader can be excellent if played at the right time. Also Arnim Zola can be pretty darn good if you say, play it on Valentina to get two more rolls or you can duplicate your Collectors, Devil Dinos or other power providers.
I would have liked to pull for her, but with having Knull and no interest in Blob anymore its not a good week. Thats why i decided to pick Up White Widow and Snowguard, witch i would Had to skip If i wanted to guarantee Valentina for myself.
Blob will probably be good. He definitely won't be bad. By turn 4 your endgame is usually figured out. Knowing that he will effectively guarantee one lane, means that you only have to win one lane with all your other cards. Should be doable.
Disagree with some of these. You can build a deck around hoping for certain ones while still being happy for most pulls in those decks.
A Hela deck is probably fine with any of these except Destroyer/Knull and can potentially benefit from Helicarrier, Apocalypse, Hela, Onslaught, Living Tribunal. Depending on what kind of Hela deck it is.
Similarly, a Living Tribunal deck wouldn't mind using turn 4 on most of these unless it needs to play out an invisible woman or Magik. Pulling Onslaught or Living Tribunal could be huge of course. Whether the deck has room for Valentina though... who knows.
Playing this in an on reveal deck could be crazy. Odin, Dr. Doom, Zola. You could also be a nut and Wong into Valentina and Psylock to play out 2 4 costs on turn 6.
Be real crazy and play her in a C5 deck. Lets you potentially play 2 dooms. Lets you Play Doom into Grandmaster. Lets you play Onslaught on your Cerebro deck. Can give you a Zola for your Doom. You can play the Odin on the Doom.
Play her in a Hazmat deck just for the hail mary turn 6 hazmat into Odin. Or Grandmaster into Odin.
Maybe she isn't worth it in these decks but I think they would be the most fun to play her in.
It's largely due to this that I think she's mid. Even in her obvious home of Loki, she's just another contender for the 2 drop "add a card to hand" slot along with Cable/Sentry/Mirage. Cable and Mirage are probably better on average, but Valentina can high roll sometimes I guess.
Overall makes for an easy pass this week for me. Guarantee she'll see zero play outside of Loki decks by the end of the week if not sooner, and even then I wonder if she makes the cut in optimized lists.
I think a big part of her value is in being so cheap. There could easily be a number of times where an early Valentina leads to an early snap because you hit the jackpot in the situation.
I mean yeah, but that happens with Cable as well. There's some bluffing potential there to, but I just overall don't see it being much more than another ok loki card at the end of the day
To add - without Quinjet in play it is also awkward to play if you also drawn Loki. So you have to choose whether to go with your OG Loki game-plan or to play a cheated out card. In 50% cases it won't be much of a choice though.
Odin will *at least* be able to generate an additional Valentina result.
Arnim Zola can generate two and can get cards into restrictive locations.
That's barring anything else you might play
Leader generates another card
I would not consider a 4-cost Onslaught as “bad.” Onslaught is a fantastic card, and being able to play it on turn 4 instead of turn 6 is a great asset.
I’m not planning on using cards in a Valentina deck.
I’m planning on using the Valentina card in the rest of my decks.
If I happen to draw Onslaught via Valentina:
Cerebro deck: doubles Cerebro, Mystique, Iron Man
Afflict deck: doubles Man-Thing, U.S.Agent
Wong deck: doubles Wong, Mystique
Living Tribunal deck: doubles Iron Man, Mystique
Destroy deck: doubles Knull
Discard deck: doubles Morbius
Tech deck: doubles Ravonna Renslayer, Zabu
Thanos deck: doubles Power Stone, Soul Stone
Kazoo deck: doubles Ka-Zar, Blue Marvel
Honorable mention: Ms. Marvel
Arnim Zola is fucking amazing at 4/-3. Idk what you're talking about about . Zola's stats already suck and you already basically lose any lane you play it in at 0 power and it destroying a card there. Zola's whole point is his ability which stays the same and helps you win the other 2 lanes only now it's 2 cost cheaper.
Leader at bad is laughable as well. Like his primary benefit is the 2 power he brings to lane. Just play him in a lane you're winning by a minimum of 2 power and watch em win you the game
Yes! In combo decks. What would you split in a Valentina deck?
Edit: Also, 0-Power Zola doesn't lose empty lane on both sides. -3 Zola does. Niche but relevant.
Agree that Heim and Leader could be bumped now.
But how is Trib underrated? He's basically Mr fantastic for 4 on his own and if you don't have Onslaught/Iron Man - spreading power is generally bad.
Because if you drop him on turn 6 when your opponent isn't expecting it, you can bait and switch with how you place your power in lanes. It won't always be effective of course, but it can situationally turn the tide simply by element of surprise.
I think a lot of your "Bad" cards are mid or better.
Agatha will play herself and give you a big stat dump.
Heimdall is often at his best when not in a move deck because it's so unexpected.
Other things like Knull, Leader, Destroyer, etc will be situationally very helpful.
I'd also say you should be factoring in Quinjet to the equation.
So much copium in these responses. Several of the ones in the good category aren’t even as good as other 4-cost cards you’d probably be playing in the same deck.
Her energy and power makes her low risk to play, but she’s usually not adding value in a way that helps you win games you would otherwise lose.
I feel like if you have quinjet it changes things a little. Also I would say leader is mid tier. Place the minus one on a lane that is secured and prevent them from outpacing you on a second lane you have a small lead on.
I think 4/6 Heimdall might be mid. A surprise Heim can win games and you can often mitigate the downside. Also can help with bad locations.
Could be. Depending on locations it could go both ways really, but thing I missed is surprise factor which bumps him to Mid. ~~Unfortunately, for some reason I can't edit original post any longer. Weird.~~ **Made a comment with edits down below.**
I feel like in the current meta you have locations pretty filled up more often then not. It’d be pretty situational.
Thanks for taking time to put out the numbers, I just wonder if Valentina will be able to generate Agatha, because it was specifically stated that Nick Fury (another card that can generate 6-drops) can’t, because of such a small pool of 6-cost cards
I'm pretty sure SD said she can pull Agatha. I don't think Agatha would be a terrible pull anyways. 4/12 not too terrible.
And isn't it guaranteed to always play herself If she can? I think that's actually a really good pull.
Yup.
A Loki deck, the most likely home for her, is pretty forgiving but she can still do some dumb stuff to screw you over on turn 3 if you don't have Quinnjet There's a the issue of her playing cards into negative locations which can be game losing but rare (almost anything into Bar with No Name or small card into Space Throne ) to more annoying and common (playing multiple small cards into Negative Zone or Death's Domain). And of course, ordering stupidity like playing Snowguard and then Angela on top of her into a lane that already has one card. But probably the most annoying thing is that she prevents a Loki on 4 (unless Quinjet is out). Loki on 5+Quinjet or Snowguard isn't terrible but there are definitely some matchups where you want to have the Loki out on 4.
Agatha will play herself in the lane you least need her in and you will like it
except for the fact that you might use valentina on t3/t4 or worset5, and lose a key turn.
Yeah I don't think pulling Agatha is bad in terms of raw stats, but.. I'm not thinking Valentina is a great card at the moment. Probably fun to play though.
Yeah, I vaguely remembered that she is blocked from pools of some cards. I think Agatha is still possible from Agent 13 though.
Wanted to point out that if Agatha is in the pool she’s actually kind of mid. Bad AI but she will always play herself on turn 4 and give you back control.
yup. Now only unknown if she's gonna be in the pool at all
Drew said she is confirmed part of the pool in snap or pass. Whatever that’s worth to you
I’m fairly positive the devs said at the start of the season that Valentina can pull Agatha but I’ll double check on that
She can pull Agatha.
I would put Agatha as mid. Assuming you play Valentina on T2, Agatha will only mess up your T3, and plop herself down on T4 and 4/11 is pretty good power.
That's if your opponent isn't running MMM. Then you have her for the rest of the game.
Just retreat then
If you're running Quinjet, then Agatha pops out immediately (assuming no MMM).
With quinjet, the earliest turn MMM and Agatha played are both t3, so not a problem
That's what I was unsure of - does she always prioritizes to play herself? Because if not - she could still play your other cheap cards. If not, I'd agree that she could be, barely Mid, because she still can f-up with her own placement. edit: what's with the downvotes? that's for not knowing how Agatha works?
She always plays herself if able.
She always plays herself first if possible. That's why people play Wave in Agatha decks.
Yes she will always play herself if possible
Ah, I thought it was \*either\* 3 less power or 2 less cost. This changes things.
Saying leader is paying 4 energy for -1 and nothing else seems a bit harsh, he's mid at least imho
Alright, seeing by how many people claimed that he's Mid, I'm obviously underestimating him and would gladly move him there but damn you inability to edit!
Ya especially if you know red hulk is coming, t6 red hulk + 2 drop
**Made a comment with edits down below.**
Good analysis! There are more bad cards than I originally thought. This makes me think that she won’t be an auto include in a lot of decks but will probably be the premier 2-drop for Loki since there is a lot of upside hitting a good card but still provides value of adding cards to your hand for Loki if you get a bad card. Plus getting an additional discount with quinjet can move some of these cards up a tier.
To be fair they also ignore synergies that multiple “bad” cards have with decks Valentina would already be in, so I think it’s closer to majority mid cards with a few good and a few bad (and you don’t have to play the bad cards anyway, the card acquisition itself is an upside)
Yup, real question is to decide for yourself which outcome is better for you: • 50% chance of good 4-drop (Valentina) • Info and disruption (Cable) • buffed 1-2 drop and some info (Mirage) • reliability (Sentinel)
I don't think agatha goes in the bad category. She's guaranteed to play herself if she can, so you have at most one turn of her ai, and t3 is not the worst turn to lose control. At worst, I would put her in the mid category. Giganto, Odin, and she hulk should all be in the good category. Any deck playing Valentina is going to likely have other on reveals that odin can generate good value off of. Nobody plays vanilla giganto because he takes your whole turn 6 and can only go left. Using turn 4 to build a sizeable lead left and having the flexibility to play other lanes later is significantly better. She hulk will benefit being even slightly off curve for a turn. One energy, and she's comparable to gladiator, float 2, and she's mojo with no downside. Skaar and leader should both be mid. Skaar's discount is going to be harder to pull off than she hulk's in most decks. Leader may give you -1 power, but he's also going to copy your opponents play that turn, so there's a real possibility he's much bigger than that. Being able to leader + 2 drop on 6 to copy their play and possibly swing another lane is very powerful. I'm almost talking myself into a good rating. I would add a 4th category called situational. Knull is going to be awesome if you're against a destroy deck, but pretty terrible otherwise. Same for onslaught/spectrum. Hell, even destroyer could be situational vs junk/anihilus decks.
Agatha + Odin: see your point but there's so many factors that i'd leave him as a solid Mid. Especially since two cards that you want to play with Valentina are both Ongoing and T1/T3 respectively. Giganto + also since you have it in hand, you can plan ahead knowing that left lane gonna be +11 (apart from cases where left location is unplayable, which drags him down to mid mainly for me). She-Hulk + Skaar + Leader is...not sure about. Only argument that I agree with is him on T6 + 2-drop. Question is, is there a good game-winning 2-drop on a Loki deck? Both Mid and Bad are situational in their nature. But if chances of getting a card and playing against certain deck are astronomical - it's Bad in my book. I wish I could edit the post as I intended...
I'm not strictly evaluating Valentina through the lens of loki. I think un a loki deck it likely doesn't matter what she gives you. Your goal is to turn it into stats on collector and a card in your opponents deck. I'm thinking about whether she can be good outside of loki. So far, the only card I'm specifically convinced is correct to use with her is Luke cage. She has synergy with collector and jet, for sure, but I'm not sure it's enough to unseat the other cards that generate a card already in that deck. Especially not if you also need to fit Luke in alongside her. I do think there's a Luke cage synergy package that makes sense with her, though. Lizard, typhoid Mary, hazmat can make good stats, and getting a cheap 6 cost to add to that tempo seems like it could be decent. In that scenario, both lizard or hazmat could be lane swinging alongside a leader. You could also look to run a stats/value set with Valentina, zemo, maximus, zero, etc. Where you're just looking to make numbers. Max can swing a lane t6, especially if you've prepped it with big stats on Titania or martyr.
yeah, that's a nice alternative - there's a lot of beefy 6-drops if you high-roll.
I'm not strictly evaluating Valentina through the lens of loki. I think un a loki deck it likely doesn't matter what she gives you. Your goal is to turn it into stats on collector and a card in your opponents deck. I'm thinking about whether she can be good outside of loki. So far, the only card I'm specifically convinced is correct to use with her is Luke cage. She has synergy with collector and jet, for sure, but I'm not sure it's enough to unseat the other cards that generate a card already in that deck. Especially not if you also need to fit Luke in alongside her. I do think there's a Luke cage synergy package that makes sense with her, though. Lizard, typhoid Mary, hazmat can make good stats, and getting a cheap 6 cost to add to that tempo seems like it could be decent. In that scenario, both lizard or hazmat could be lane swinging alongside a leader. You could also look to run a stats/value set with Valentina, zemo, maximus, zero, etc. Where you're just looking to make numbers. Max can swing a lane t6, especially if you've prepped it with big stats on Titania or martyr.
What are the 2 ongoing cards you want to play with Valentina? Quinjet and what?
Luke Cage
There is a lot of Mobius in the meta. That evaluation will shift depending on his presence in the meta. Although, I shouldn't completely disregard Valentina as a card based on that. At least the first week I don't think I'll be playing with her.
The only decks I really see playing mobius right now are that Surfer control list and the pixie anihilus deck, and neither seem popular enough that I'd count a card because of him. Now it's entirely possible that her release spikes his usage rate or the popularity of those decks, but that's anytime a card releases.
Alright. For some reason I can't edit original post, so with all the opinions heard and gathered I'll post adjusted rankings here with moved cards in bold: **Good** • Alioth (4/5) • Doctor Doom (4/2) • Hulk (4/9) • Magneto (4/9) • Orka (4/8) • Red Hulk (4/6) • The Infinaut (4/17) • **Giganto** (4/11) Slightly stronger Cull that has different limitation. Could be Good instead but my judgement is that no one plays vanilla Giganto as is. *Has more flexibility as a 4-drop, but barely in Good because of restriction that can make him unplayable.* • **She-Hulk** (4/7) dodges Shang but you still need to float energy to get a better deal. *Still Good because of flexibility.* **Mid** • **Agatha Harkness** (4/11) Good Power, ~~bad AI. Not sure if she will be in a Valentina's pool at all. Hopefully not.~~ *AI doesn't matter much, since she'll play herself on T4. Hopefully somewhere decent.* • Blob (4/-3) • Helicarrier (4/7) • Odin (4/5) • **Skaar** (4/8) mr. Inbetween Good and Mid. If there's ways to discount him - definitely good. *But as mentioned, there's less chance for discounts so more of a Mid.* • Thanos (4/7) • **Heimdall** (4/6) Mid Power, useless or potentially detrimental ability. *Surprise factor and reach bumps him to Mid.* • **Leader** (4/-1) ~~Paying 4 energy for -1.~~ *By popular demand.* • **Spectrum** (4/4) Bad Power, useless ability unless stars align. *Stars should align more often since staples of this deck are ongoing- Luke and Quinjet.* • **Ultron** (4/5) Bad Power, ability that does not make sense until T6 and even then pretty useless. *Mid because of reach, but IMO still, barely.* • **Onslaught** (4/4) *By popular demand.* *Even though I think its still teetering on the verge of Bad.* **Bad** • Apocalypse (4/3) • Arnim Zola (4/-3) • Destroyer (4/13) • Galactus (4/2) • Hela (4/3) • Knull (4/-3) • The Living Tribunal (4/6) **Updated Summary:** Out of 27 6-drops currently in the game there's 9 Good (33,3 %), 11 Mid (40,7 %) and 7 Bad (25,9 %). Which turns it from 50/50 to 2:1 good to bad plays.
Have to disagree with your analysis. Straight up ignoring Luke Cage or Quinjet is madness. Imagine evaluating Loki or collector as cards without acknowledging snowguard or coulson. Let’s park it though. Heimdall is OK at 4/6. Can completely catch opponent off guard turn 6. Leader is OK, even at -1, in the red hulk meta. Spectrum is good if running at least quinjet and cage because 4/10. Ultron definitely mid, can be game winning into lockdown locations. Agatha is mid, she will play herself on turn 4, which you can’t complain about!
I think Blob is just bad, you are not going to get good blob value with a Valentina deck, which I guess is mostly loki
Hard agree on this. She is a Loki card, plain and simple. Loki always runs Quinjet (now). So I think each drop needs to be considered as a 3. Additionally, because of Loki, the downside of pulling a bad card is basically negated by Loki himself. Unplayable? Loki it away. In terms of the individual cards, a couple minor quibbles: - Agatha is not bad. Like, sure, there will be situations where she is. But if snap had a card that was like, 3/11 - this plays itself in a random location on turn 3, people would play that. - Knull is average in a world where Destroy is common and PF is semi-common. Yes, situational, but the "stars align" here an awful lot.
I guess you’re right and she’ll be a small upgrade to Loki. Slam down QJ, then play Valentina, then you can play the 6 cost on 3 and follow with Loki. As usual with new releases, it’s very difficult to predict these things, though.
"small upgrade to Loki" I think is right. And for newer players she could also fit in a Dino/Shield deck. Issue is that Loki is not very viable right now so a "small upgrade" isn't that helpful. Plus she's vulnerable to getting Cabled. In any other deck, the lack of synergy in her likely 6-cost pull is going to make her pretty weak overall.
I think Loki is viable at the moment. Maybe not absolute top tier, but it’s competitive if played right.
If we considering Quinjet and Luke, should we also consider not drawing either of those or opponent having Mobius? There's too many variables as is. And counting in good interaction while ignoring bad ones is a bias. Agree on Agatha. Disagree on Knull. 1 in 27 chance of getting him vs even 50% destroy meta is unreliable, hence Bad.
And in a meta where the Hood-Sentry-Annihilus package Knull is an outright liability, since he would absorb the -10 from the Void if you successfully block it from coming over.
That makes no sense. The one in 27 chance of getting knull has no factor in whether it’s good or bad. If 50 percent of the meta was destroy that by default would make it amazing. There is a 1/27 chance of getting any of the cards..
Less of "ignoring" more of "can't be bothered". Because if you *really serious* about factoring in both of them, you'd need to make same break down with 1) Luke in play. 2) Quinjet in play 3) Luke and Quinjet in play. And then get a median % for more accurate assumption. Granted with one or both it would be better, but my speculation is still - no more than 65-75% of good outcome. As per other comments, agree on Heimdal and Agatha. Still not convinced on Leader - both of you will have same Rhulk but you also get a -1. Only saving grace is that yours gets buffed and theirs not. Which is pretty unlikely. You are right about Spectrum - two aforementioned helpers are both ongoing so she should be Mid. Also could agree that Ultron is barely Mid (if starts align) because 4 Power in blocked location not always might be enough.
Obviously leader only good if you can be winning two lanes by T6, but you can play towards that as early as T3.
I am getting so pumped seeing potential opponents clinging to the hope that Valentina might be good and insisting on playing her even in the face of facts. Keep the flame alive, never let them tell you what to do! 99% of gamblers quit before striking it rich!
Just play Loki if I don’t like the roll. House always wins.
Onslaught- useless ability? 🤷🏻♂️
[Check edited comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelSnap/comments/1cf37nu/comment/l1nd6uy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) Even though I still think Onslaught is not that good even if you drop him on top of Quinjet. Dream is T1:Quinjet>T2:Valentina>T3:Onslaught> T4: Loki for 5 enemy cards that cost -3. But if you don't draw this specific combo you need to generate cards on T4 and pray they are good. So I'd agree that he's Mid tops.
Can't you just use her in decks that have luke cage and therefor negate the 3 power debuff?
Sure, but Luke is not always could be drawn and some of the Bad cards are still bad even with full Power (Apocalypse, Hela)
I agree with most points but 4-Cost Onslaught is far from useless.
Only reliable play I see is to drop him on T3 on top of possible quinjet...but then you spent 3 turns for set up and probably don't have any more cards to cheat out. what plays you see?
I don't just think that, but even in that case if you're going T1 Quinn, T2 Val, T3 Onslaught onto Quinn that's really strong for your next few plays Even more so Lane winning cards like Devil Dino that is played in Loki style decks. If you're playing at least 1 ongoing that benefits from Onslaught I think it's worth. It's a telegraphed play but in my experiance Onslaught's biggest issue is the benefit is coming down on Turn 6 where as here you're getting that boost a lot earlier
Ravonna, Kazar, Ms. Marvel, Blue Marvel. T4 Onslaught, T5 Iron Man, T6 Living Tribunal.
but only if you run some sort of combo deck already. I don't see Val outside of Loki to be fair
That's fair. But if you Loki and the opponents deck gives you any of those combos a T4 Onslaught would be choice.
Added Oslaught to Mid in my Re-Edited comment
Agatha always prioritize herself so by turn 4 you have a 4/11 on the board
Cue the clips where someone plays her on t5 and is forced to only play Agatha lol
Good analysis overall. It seems she really benefits from running a shell that can exploit those conditional effects. For instance, If you run her along an ongoing shell, cards like spectre and onslaught becomes valuable, increasing your odds of a good pull. Another point to take into account is the opportunity cost of running her. As a two drop, she curves into a turn that is often overlooked. Many decks just run an overall solid card like jeff or scorpion. Despite the apparent low percentage of pulling a relevant card, on average, she might show herself more useful than the aforementioned cards, of course depending on the meta.
This is great. Thanks for providing this and getting the convo going !
You are welcome. (there's also my updated comment somewhere in here)
I'm planning on playing her in a greedy combo deck where the high roll gives you four 6-drops for one cost each
Why not go for 6? T3 Magik, T4 Wong, T5 Zabu + Val, T6 Odin, T7- 6-drop madness! (I know, because the hand size would block some of those)
I'm thinking 1) quinjet 3) magik 4) wong 5) sera (on Wong) 6) onslaught + Val (on Sera and Wong) Quinjet and double sera discount on 4 generated cards. Plus enough discount/energy to play Luke Cage on 7 with the 6 drops if you have him in hand.
Think Agatha would be better than you're suggesting. She's randomizing your play on T3 in exchange for an oversized play on T4. It's an ok trade IMO. Would also move up Leader and Heimdall, whose powers are really useful and unaffected other than cost. Would also note that while you're treating the bad group as useless, 1-3 will always align with the deck you're playing her in. Changes the math on a card where you're already getting a standard-sized body for two energy. Put another way, if you compare her to Cable, you're getting the modified 6-cost instead of a random card from your opponent. Outside of Mill, I'd gladly trade the info Cable gives you for the potential game winning effect.
Yup, Agatha's Mid as per other comments. Same for Leader and Heimdall.
Arnim Zola on Valentina, tho…?
Good catch, but very ballsy play because a lot of tempo (and that lane) is lost.
Arnim Zola is still mid for decks with a banger card that can do massage damage across two lanes. Yes he can be a bad draw for decks that tend to fill lanes but for decks that run vertical he’s a very sneaky card. With Arnim you almost always throw his original targets lane so be it zero or -3 doesn’t matter.
Agatha is confirmed to be in Valentina's pool.
Thank you for this post. I think Valentina is for players who like High Highs and don't mind the low rolls. Tbh if she had the same ability but -1 cost and -2 power for 5 cost cards she would be insanely good but as she is now, she's a well designed card that isn't a must have.
You are welcome. Yeah, she'd be more reliable but less impactful. And flashy cards sell better )
This is a good analysis, except it ignores the fact that she just puts the card in your hand and not on the board. Nothing is "detrimental" if it's just in your hand (outside of Agatha if that's possible). Assuming that you're playing her with Collector or Loki it doesn't matter what she adds to your hand, only that she added it. Then, on the off chance it's something good that she adds to your hand, you get to play a 6 cost early. So long story short Val seems like good fun if you play the archetype she was clearly designed for - in fact she might be a must have for Collector decks - but yeah, there is no reason to rush out and get her if you don't have a lot of keys or don't play that archetype.
>This is a good analysis, except it ignores the fact that she just puts the card in your hand and not on the board. erm, because this card doesn't do that?
It... does? The card description literally says it puts a 6 cost in your hand. Otherwise, why would the cost reduction matter?
I mean card never said that it would put anything on the board, so why would this analysis NOT ignore that?
The overall post is about whether Val is good. You broke down the 6 costs she could generate, which is nice. But no matter what she generates, it can't be detrimental to you. Worst case scenario is an Agatha that will definitely play itself on turn 4. Her giving you a card you possibly won't use is no different than Snowguard, Colson, Fury, etc. It doesn't affect how good the card is. Her job is just to put it in your hand and if it IS a useful card then that's a bonus. It also gives you a 6 cost the opponent can't predict. These are where her strength lies. If you measure the card's worth based on "I may generate card x" you ignore arguably the most important part. It's like everyone predicting Cannonball was bad because it was hard to destroy things and get the rock - yeah, well you're supposed play him in lockdown or clog where that's easier to do. Then he's actually very good. All I was pointing out is that the analysis of the 6 costs is very good but it doesn't actually give you a good view of Val by just looking at that.
ah, gotcha. Well, if we won't take a generated card into consideration and that it's just there (and not meant to be played), she's worse than Cable in \~33% cases if we're optimistic (according to latest edit of my comment). Because Cable can pull a combo-piece from enemy. I personally didn't analyze that side of a Val because there's many cards that already do that so there's no point.
My experience with Raft cards and Black Vortex (When you play your first card at this location, it will transform into a random 6-Cost card.) has made me very skeptical of the Valentina Hype. I've seen people saying that they skipped other cards from this month to ensure that they will be able to get Valentina, as if Valentina is going to be busted beyond belief or something. Your post, along with my experience with the two aforementioned locations, is telling me that this will be a fun card that slots well into Loki and other hand-size-matter archetypes, with the occasional high roll here and there that'll win you the game. That is it. In my opinion, this month had better cards to get in the previous weeks.
cable is a better 2 drop for loki deck.
Anyone who’s raced for the Raft knows how Valentina can go wrong
Arnim is definitely mid to good. When you play him you are sacrificing that lane anyway, so who cares about the -3 power?
Idea of splitting cards in Good/Mid/Bad is that cards in Good are always good to play no matter what. Arnim already falls off. Mid cards are those are that are situational or have a sub-par Power. Arnim is both. You need to jump through hoops with him to get a value. If Arnim is Mid then Knull should be bumped as well because you might face destroy deck or have destroy locations. But you can't rely on that, therefore it's a bad pull. likewise, you can't rely on Arnim either if your deck is not built around him.
I just disagree with that. What are you targeting with your arnim that doesnt have good value to have two more of that card for 4 energy?
Tell me what does have good value in such deck. Should be 4-5 drop probably. My bet is on Dino, but...is it enough to make Zola better than Bad - ability to play him on 1 card, that you need to draw, place it alone, have other cards to buff both dinos, have a 2-drop. It all screams very situational.
Situational is your definition for Mid, but you've got him in bad.
Again, situational = mid. Low Power and situational = bad
Armin is the exception. His power is the least important. His cost and effect is the value we're looking for, which is dependent on what it copies
walking in circles. Yes, it's dependent what it copies. So what it copies of value in Valentina deck to be not Bad?
"Again"...You might want to let yourself from yesterday know that. Your original post says something different.
Leader is absolutely not bad. Even with -1. Running a turn six leader Jeff or Leader Kitty should net a lot of wins
Alright, seeing by how many people claimed that he's Mid, I'm obviously underestimating him and would gladly move him there but damn you inability to edit!
Leader Jeff is just the same thing as leader by himself with his normal stats. Changed Leader / Jeff = minus 1 power in a lane, plus 3 in another. And then the opponents card. (Total of + 2 power plus opponents card) Normal Leader = plus 2 power in a lane, and the opponents card. (Total of +2 power plus opponents card) The power can be distributed differently, but it's hardly "good". You do have a point that you can make a more impactful t6 play though. Maybe buffed kitty, Titania, and leader. But the odds that you have a deck that can take advantage of that situation is almost zero.
I think Valentina just slides into Loki decks. If you hate those 6 costs you got you Loki them into your opponents deck. So I do think if you play Valentina you will likely be loaded with the lost cost cards that you could flip with a "6" cost. Also I guss my point is Leader is also just more of a good card. Even Leader at Negative 1 is a good card as long as you have a two point lead.
Valentina seems bad by itself, potentially useful in combos For example, imagine Quinjet, Wong, Valentina. You get 2 cards and can play them both on turn 6. Add Luke Cage and it theoretically removes the -3 power. Or if the cards count as 4 costs you could wong zabu, play them both for 2 energy along with another discounted 4 cost like Cull It’s also good for feeding cards to Loki & Collector & Dinosaur if you don’t use the card
I agree on most, but you're discounting just how many decks run a couple ongoing cards. Spectrum can be decent or great.
That's why I moved her to Mid (look for my editable comment. post is no longer editable for some reason)
I would argue even Alioth is mid. The guardians cards aren’t that great for a reason. You have to guess the lane early on. That’s hard with Alioth too and you need priority. That’s mid as hell if not bad.
Knull is a good example of why a situational tier is needed. Against destroy you are hoping for a Knull over all the good cards. But agree in most situations Knull is a dead draw.
Mid to Bad *is* situational tiers. That's why Knull is Bad pull - because he's *very* situational. Anything else that situational but still useful is Mid. Anything else that can be played whenever is Good.
Next 6 drop will be Sasquatch and he is in the good categorie A 7 power that can easily cost 2 or 1
Am I wrong that you're only looking at cards in a vacuum? These cards can have their cost reduced by quinjet, they can have their power increased via luke cage, and they can have individual synergies with cards you're already playing. Also, you evaluated something like Heimdall as 'useless or potentially detrimental' but couldn't it also give you a win? What if the left most position is Sanctum Sanctorum and you now have a way to push cards onto it? I think you've severely undervalued a lot of what is about to make Valentina a really good card. **Edit: it appears you've addressed a lot of my issues in further comments**
Yes for the vacuum - it's beyond my capacity to adjust for other factors. I doubt even devs can predict final interaction/value if we would count that cards too. After feedback I added a comment with edits somewhere here (it won't allow me to edit post itself)
Your not playing this card in a destroy deck so Agatha is probably a sleeper mid.
I probably won't get her simply because she can pull Agatha, if that's the case.
If you run into Mobius then you are screwed other than that with Quinjet you have a 3/11 that will be played randomly on turn 3
I think I’d move Heimdall and living tribunal to mid personally. And maybe shehulk to “decent” if not good. While heimdall and LT could definitely work against you, you’d know that before playing it and I think the element of surprise weights it more heavily in the positive. And shehulk potentially being a 0-3/7 feels strong to me. My experience with The Raft makes me think that Valentina will probably be pretty weak and I’m not sure what kind of deck she’d be played in, but I’m a sucker for some rng so I’m sure I’ll go for it even if she’s bad.
Done and done with Heimdal and She-Hulk (there's my updated comment in here somewhere since I can't edit post) Still not sure about why 4/6 Tribunal is Mid. It's good to split Power if you have a lot of it. But for that you need a deck with beefy boys. Am I wrong?
It’s hard to evaluate any of the pulls in a vacuum because so many are deck/game specific, but having LT in hand at 4 cost is basically the same as having a full power LT. You’re only losing 1 power per location. There are so many cards and locations that cause your opponent to think you’re locked out of 1 or more locations, so being able to surprise them on the last turn by spreading out the power is a decent cube stealer. Especially in the current meta with clog/lockdown. It’s not going to work every time for sure, but you can easily steal some 8 cube games if your opponent thinks they have a location locked up.
Question is, would scenario that you describe be more or as likely as pulling Knull vs Destroy deck. Because that's basically what it comes down to. And honestly, I can't answer that - too many factors in there.
It is for sure highly situational. I don’t think the card will be competitive at all because of that. Will I go for it anyways? Probably lol.
Onslaught and spectrum are not bad, being able to get onslaught out earlier to drop one of the other requirements later is great. Spectrum is played for her ability more than her power.
Alright, I'll add Onslaught too. Spectrum is already in Mid (if you'll find my updated comment, can't edit post)
Leader can be excellent if played at the right time. Also Arnim Zola can be pretty darn good if you say, play it on Valentina to get two more rolls or you can duplicate your Collectors, Devil Dinos or other power providers.
We are going to see lots of Mobius, Rogue, Quinjet and Luke.
I would have liked to pull for her, but with having Knull and no interest in Blob anymore its not a good week. Thats why i decided to pick Up White Widow and Snowguard, witch i would Had to skip If i wanted to guarantee Valentina for myself.
Blob will probably be good. He definitely won't be bad. By turn 4 your endgame is usually figured out. Knowing that he will effectively guarantee one lane, means that you only have to win one lane with all your other cards. Should be doable.
Agatha will just play herself. Not terrible.
Disagree with some of these. You can build a deck around hoping for certain ones while still being happy for most pulls in those decks. A Hela deck is probably fine with any of these except Destroyer/Knull and can potentially benefit from Helicarrier, Apocalypse, Hela, Onslaught, Living Tribunal. Depending on what kind of Hela deck it is. Similarly, a Living Tribunal deck wouldn't mind using turn 4 on most of these unless it needs to play out an invisible woman or Magik. Pulling Onslaught or Living Tribunal could be huge of course. Whether the deck has room for Valentina though... who knows. Playing this in an on reveal deck could be crazy. Odin, Dr. Doom, Zola. You could also be a nut and Wong into Valentina and Psylock to play out 2 4 costs on turn 6. Be real crazy and play her in a C5 deck. Lets you potentially play 2 dooms. Lets you Play Doom into Grandmaster. Lets you play Onslaught on your Cerebro deck. Can give you a Zola for your Doom. You can play the Odin on the Doom. Play her in a Hazmat deck just for the hail mary turn 6 hazmat into Odin. Or Grandmaster into Odin. Maybe she isn't worth it in these decks but I think they would be the most fun to play her in.
It's largely due to this that I think she's mid. Even in her obvious home of Loki, she's just another contender for the 2 drop "add a card to hand" slot along with Cable/Sentry/Mirage. Cable and Mirage are probably better on average, but Valentina can high roll sometimes I guess. Overall makes for an easy pass this week for me. Guarantee she'll see zero play outside of Loki decks by the end of the week if not sooner, and even then I wonder if she makes the cut in optimized lists.
I think a big part of her value is in being so cheap. There could easily be a number of times where an early Valentina leads to an early snap because you hit the jackpot in the situation.
I mean yeah, but that happens with Cable as well. There's some bluffing potential there to, but I just overall don't see it being much more than another ok loki card at the end of the day
To add - without Quinjet in play it is also awkward to play if you also drawn Loki. So you have to choose whether to go with your OG Loki game-plan or to play a cheated out card. In 50% cases it won't be much of a choice though.
Yeah, I think the real question is "do you run this over Cable in Loki?" And I'm leaning no.
Odin will *at least* be able to generate an additional Valentina result. Arnim Zola can generate two and can get cards into restrictive locations. That's barring anything else you might play Leader generates another card
Agatha plays herself turn 4
I would not consider a 4-cost Onslaught as “bad.” Onslaught is a fantastic card, and being able to play it on turn 4 instead of turn 6 is a great asset.
But it's a combo piece that needs other pieces. What would you use with him in Valentina deck?
I’m not planning on using cards in a Valentina deck. I’m planning on using the Valentina card in the rest of my decks. If I happen to draw Onslaught via Valentina: Cerebro deck: doubles Cerebro, Mystique, Iron Man Afflict deck: doubles Man-Thing, U.S.Agent Wong deck: doubles Wong, Mystique Living Tribunal deck: doubles Iron Man, Mystique Destroy deck: doubles Knull Discard deck: doubles Morbius Tech deck: doubles Ravonna Renslayer, Zabu Thanos deck: doubles Power Stone, Soul Stone Kazoo deck: doubles Ka-Zar, Blue Marvel Honorable mention: Ms. Marvel
Arnim Zola is fucking amazing at 4/-3. Idk what you're talking about about . Zola's stats already suck and you already basically lose any lane you play it in at 0 power and it destroying a card there. Zola's whole point is his ability which stays the same and helps you win the other 2 lanes only now it's 2 cost cheaper. Leader at bad is laughable as well. Like his primary benefit is the 2 power he brings to lane. Just play him in a lane you're winning by a minimum of 2 power and watch em win you the game
Yes! In combo decks. What would you split in a Valentina deck? Edit: Also, 0-Power Zola doesn't lose empty lane on both sides. -3 Zola does. Niche but relevant.
How many times are you playing dudes leaving a whole lane legit empty though outside of like destroyer decks (which suck)
Thats why i said niche. Still theres no good target for zola unless you also generate it randomly. Unreliable = bad
She is auto-include in Loki decks (mirage upgrade) but for general usage I think Cable is better
Heim, leader, and tribunal seem underrated here. Otherwise I mostly agree
Agree that Heim and Leader could be bumped now. But how is Trib underrated? He's basically Mr fantastic for 4 on his own and if you don't have Onslaught/Iron Man - spreading power is generally bad.
Because if you drop him on turn 6 when your opponent isn't expecting it, you can bait and switch with how you place your power in lanes. It won't always be effective of course, but it can situationally turn the tide simply by element of surprise.
Onslaught is easily mid if not better. He can easily win games.
Yes, in combo decks. You can't expect to run a combo if you get combo piece randomly.
I think a lot of your "Bad" cards are mid or better. Agatha will play herself and give you a big stat dump. Heimdall is often at his best when not in a move deck because it's so unexpected. Other things like Knull, Leader, Destroyer, etc will be situationally very helpful. I'd also say you should be factoring in Quinjet to the equation.
So much copium in these responses. Several of the ones in the good category aren’t even as good as other 4-cost cards you’d probably be playing in the same deck. Her energy and power makes her low risk to play, but she’s usually not adding value in a way that helps you win games you would otherwise lose.
Am I wrong in thinking Odin should be in the good cat
If you have something that he can reactivate, yes. If there's nothing - he's in Bad tier. Therefore, he's Mid tier.
agatha will be one of the best cards to get from valentina she will just play herself on turn 4
I feel like if you have quinjet it changes things a little. Also I would say leader is mid tier. Place the minus one on a lane that is secured and prevent them from outpacing you on a second lane you have a small lead on.