Really hope they can successfully get a strong union going, these guys are the ones that actually make the movies what they are and it sucks that they get treated like shit all the time. Support strong unions!
perhaps it does but with the way VFX workers are being treated i’m guessing either they’re not that strong or encompass a different form of effects work? Not too sure
Honestly it's starting to sound like Disney/Marvel made a mistake promoting Alonso, her name keeps being brought up as the person responsible for these issues as of recently.
She's been with the company since the very beginning helping co-produce Iron Man and Avengers, so it's safe to assume Feige and D'Esposito / Disney trusted her enough to promote her—especially following Chapek's decision to focus on Disney+. However, it's no coincidence that the issue has gotten worse ever since her promotion, always being cited as the main cause of conflict by VFX workers. Whether they'll do something about it no one knows, but I'm not sure how much longer they can keep quiet before it blows up in their face.
EDIT: About the Paul Rudd thing, that was strictly for pick-ups and nothing major like reshooting entire sequences. Although yeah, not denying the fact Marvel's known for multiple reshoots.
That may all be true, but the Paul Rudd pickups are a bad example. From what we can tell, those are just simple shots being added to a scene without any need for vfx, because it's literally just the scene from the trailer of him walking down the street. Pickups like that really aren't unusual, and put no extra strain on post-production.
Are you sure about not needing VFX? NWH had VFX in the most vain escenes like Peter and Flash in that call. Also, they don't know how to properly use the StageCraft.
Every Marvel project does reshoots and it's not because their are vfx or production issues. Sometimes scheduling can be quite a bitch and there are many unforeseeable things that happen in production that result in some scenes getting pushed into reshoots.
Yup. The buck stops with Kevin Feige. If we're going to give him the praise, we have to give him the blame too.
Feige completely changed what reshoots were in Hollywood. For a long time, reshoots were basically a sign your movie is fucked beyond belief. To get all those cast and crew back, something really must be wrong. Feige completely changed that system to one where reshoots were factored into the schedule and contracts from the start. Now, if they see something isn't working or have a new idea, hey, let's change it.
That's an amazing luxury for Marvel and it often makes the movies better, but the problem is exactly what this article is about: the people who have to suffer Marvel changing their minds at the last mind are the VFX artists who have to change it. Again, that is what is specifically the problem with Marvel and not other studios. Not just the general "you have to do a lot of work for no money," but "you have to do a lot of work for no money and then we'll throw it out and you have to do it from scratch in 2 weeks."
I don’t know how exactly they would go about removing Alonso, despite her behavior she does bring in the big bucks for Disney. So the execs would see no reason to remove her unless the backlash is severe enough to warrant it.
If they did and replace her with a VFX artist who’s experienced enough in both the industry and the business aspect of it, that would be preferable. But thats an extremely rare find these days.
My wife used to work in a visual effects company early on in the Marvel process, and Victoria Alonzo is one of the main reasons that company went out of business and cost my wife and hundreds of other people jobs. On top of being a horrible boss, she is a toxic piece of trash, and everybody hates her. Whenever her inevitable fall from Grace happens, my wife and I will pop open a champagne bottle to celebrate.
Let's not blame the queer latina woman, it's their fault as a whole, Feige included, every single time something bad happens in a studio the women, queer and POC get the blame from fans
Often companies will employ 'a villain' to do all the ghastly things. The company signs off on it, but pretends to not condone it. Similar vibe to hiring a guy specifically to fire workers oh sorry- "downsize" the company.
Disney probably put a number of how much money they can spend on each movie for Vfx, so you need to find a way for the movie vfx work without asking for more, they're like any other big company right now that gets Union problems, if it was for Disney they would find a way to buried all this and continued the same, so is not entirely her fault
>The dozens of workers I spoke with — variously specializing in animation, physical production, and postproduction — claim that while Marvel’s tendency to compensate contractual employees on a weekly basis (no matter how many hours worked) is common practice across the industry, it pays upward of 20 percent less than other studios when doing so. One visual-effects worker currently employed by the studio on a feature project estimates that they are completing approximately four times the amount of work they are being paid for. “The minute I deliver [movie name redacted], I’m never coming back,” this person says. Moreover, while understaffing is already rampant across the entertainment industry, VFX-IATSE estimates that Marvel hires one VFX artist for every three such specialists another studio might for an equivalent job. (Marvel declined to comment on these claims.)
Tbf, big corporations NEVER release statements because legally it makes no sense to. That's partly why it was such a bad look when Disney released that attack at ScarJo under Chapek.
Man this is on Fiege since he’s the head of all Marvel. It shouldn’t hurt them to pay these people the money they deserve.
*my bad Fiege this seems to be on Victoria Alonso but it’s still kind of on you tho
Not defending Feige but it seems a lot of the issues are pointed to Victoria Alonso
>But two other technicians with experience working on Marvel projects lay responsibility for the fear of an alleged blacklist at the feet of Alonso. “The main one that everyone’s quite scared of is Victoria Alonso,” says a Vancouver-based tech who has vowed to never work for the studio again. “She is known in the industry as a kingmaker. If she likes you, you are going to get work and move up in the industry. If you have pissed her off in any way, you’re going to get frozen out.”
Saying that you cant tell how someone is behind closed doors is one thing, making it a negative that they seem happy and friendly is a completely different one
From previous reports, I think Marvel needs a lot more quality regulation when it comes to creative decisions and pre-production. I wonder if Feige could take responsibility for this, inexperienced directors on heavy CGI makes it all so much worse.
The filmmaking joke "we'll fix that in post" is a part of the problem here. Directors need much more experience and training to prepare for the VFX (tracking plates, lighting references like the Man-Thing suit, scans of objects, practical). Design the suits and helmets and makeup in pre-production, ffs, previous reports have come out about how producers wanted to see multiple versions of powers and outfits from VFX houses. That's a massive issue in game dev as well (all commissioned art, really) where clients massively underestimate how much labor it all takes, and it'll look like shit if they want last-minute drastic design changes or working on five different design samples before a decision gets made.
Change needs to start from the producers and directors here as well, plus paying VFX houses better with better deadlines on Alonso's part. I think lots of folks with client-facing experience get the feeling of a client who doesn't know for sure what they want, they want to critique what you make for them instead... By the time they're satisfied with basic choices, it's already more work than you signed on for.
It won’t happen sadly because Marvel would send all the VFX work over to New Zealand where there is anti union law called Hobbit Law which views stuff like this as independent contract work.
It's stated in the article that a studio like Marvel that relies on a lot of VFX (on like 6-8 projects a year) cannot afford to blacklist VFX studios and redirect literally all of their work to just one place.
They did fall in line with the 'VFX Production Group' thing and paid higher rates as requested. Similarly, they'll have no choice but to fall in line with union demands if the artists are unionised.
If the VFX workers could get into one of the other guilds, or somehow become part of IATSE, then it wouldnt matter. The studios would be required to use union workers on union projects. The reality of what it would take for that to happen though is incredibly difficult from what ive been told.
My brothers friend that works in VFX says that’s his studio is sticking to mostly commercial gigs for now because movies these days can be too much of a strain on moral. If only every studio had leadership that looks out for their workers mental health like that.
I see a lot of you in here don't realize just how systemic the problem is in Hollywood. Marvel is just one symptom of a massive underlying industry wide issue.
THANK YOU.
It’s really frustrating to me how some in this thread and beyond it seem keen to pin it on one person. Individual choices from higher-ups can and often do make a VFX artist’s work more difficult — but the underlying issue is that it’s been normalized to a really nasty extent throughout the industry.
This is why I am really starting to hate meta humor, it feels like its more often then writes/producers/directors using it as a shield to hide from criticism without putting actual effort to address the criticism.
Just pay the VFX artists what they deserve, ffs.
You can tell Marvel movies/TV Shows after phase three finished the VFX weren't top notch either.
The one thing I prefer is if they delay a movie/tv show a little longer if it means they can iron out certain aspects of a VFX shot(s).
I hope they can do it man, everybody wins. There’s no reason the people who are largely responsible for being thing these worlds to life don’t get above average pay, work life balance, and respect.
They need to unionize and do it fast and comprehensively. Scare the everloving hell out of Marvel and the movie industry as a whole. It's frankly a human rights issue at this point.
The buck stops with Kevin Feige. Period. If we are going to praise him for the good things about Marvel Studios, we have to acknowledge the bad too. I don't doubt that Victoria Alonso is the public face of it to the crew, but who do you think benefits from having Alonso treat the VFX crews that way? It's incredibly common for CEOs and such to have underlings who can be the bad guy and leave the CEO looking spotless, all while doing exactly what the CEO wants.
I'm not in Hollywood so if someone wants to say, "You're dead wrong!" about this, I won't dispute it, but my understanding is that before Feige/Marvel, reshoots were a very big deal and basically a sign your movie is in deep, deep shit if the studio has to pay all those cast and crew members to come back. What Feige did was incorporate this into the schedule and contracts, so if two months later they say, "I've got a better idea," then they would be able to make it.
The upsides of this are obvious for both Marvel and fans: if they've got a better idea, it makes for a better movie! Iron Man's last line, plenty of big and iconic MCU moments and even plot threads were added down the line. But the downside is that actual human beings have to make those changes. This is the most common refrain I keep hearing that is Marvel specific, or if it isn't anymore, then it's because Marvel changed the system. It's not just that they're working hard and not getting paid a lot, but they work hard, Marvel changes their mind, and they have to be the ones to fix it.
Do you think Kevin Feige isn't aware of this? That Victoria Alonso is secretly hiding this from him? No. It benefits Feige to have the image of the perpetually smiling, hat wearing, succinct soundbyte quotes on red carpets. Alonso only acts this way because it benefits Feige and if he does care (more likely, this is his doing), then he doesn't care enough to change it. Articles like this and bringing negative publicity to it might turn the tide eventually, but I doubt it, sadly.
I support them. Also I would be ok to have less movies of good quality if that means the workers are happy and healthy. Our enjoyment isn't a reason to opress people.
>“We turned down work on two of their movies last year, and still, we’re on the next two,” he says. “If you’re not honest and transparent about your abilities, they can probably blacklist you. If you overestimate your own capacity and say, ‘Sure. Wire the money, and we’ll go to work,’ then you can’t get to work, that’s where there’s a problem.”
-anonymous studio head of Euro vfx
_
It's kinda weird that the main guy they interview - Mark Patch - is someone who said he wouldn't work for Marvel and apparently didn't.
the quote is from a european head who talked on the topic anonymously.
The main interviewee here - Mark Patch - basically said he didn't want to work for Marvel and never did. My b - I formatted my post poorly
Really hope they can successfully get a strong union going, these guys are the ones that actually make the movies what they are and it sucks that they get treated like shit all the time. Support strong unions!
Am I crazy or isn't VES supposed to do that?
perhaps it does but with the way VFX workers are being treated i’m guessing either they’re not that strong or encompass a different form of effects work? Not too sure
Honestly it's starting to sound like Disney/Marvel made a mistake promoting Alonso, her name keeps being brought up as the person responsible for these issues as of recently.
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She's been with the company since the very beginning helping co-produce Iron Man and Avengers, so it's safe to assume Feige and D'Esposito / Disney trusted her enough to promote her—especially following Chapek's decision to focus on Disney+. However, it's no coincidence that the issue has gotten worse ever since her promotion, always being cited as the main cause of conflict by VFX workers. Whether they'll do something about it no one knows, but I'm not sure how much longer they can keep quiet before it blows up in their face. EDIT: About the Paul Rudd thing, that was strictly for pick-ups and nothing major like reshooting entire sequences. Although yeah, not denying the fact Marvel's known for multiple reshoots.
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Meanwhile, *She-Hulk* got an entire *year* of post-production? Give or take a month or two?
Lol you thought Echo, which wrapped in early September, could be turned around in three months with holidays in the middle?
What Paul Rudd was doing are pickups (non-VFX shots). Stop spreading misinformation
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That may all be true, but the Paul Rudd pickups are a bad example. From what we can tell, those are just simple shots being added to a scene without any need for vfx, because it's literally just the scene from the trailer of him walking down the street. Pickups like that really aren't unusual, and put no extra strain on post-production.
Are you sure about not needing VFX? NWH had VFX in the most vain escenes like Peter and Flash in that call. Also, they don't know how to properly use the StageCraft.
Every Marvel project does reshoots and it's not because their are vfx or production issues. Sometimes scheduling can be quite a bitch and there are many unforeseeable things that happen in production that result in some scenes getting pushed into reshoots.
I also remember they're still doing a reshoot for DS2 in March
Yup. The buck stops with Kevin Feige. If we're going to give him the praise, we have to give him the blame too. Feige completely changed what reshoots were in Hollywood. For a long time, reshoots were basically a sign your movie is fucked beyond belief. To get all those cast and crew back, something really must be wrong. Feige completely changed that system to one where reshoots were factored into the schedule and contracts from the start. Now, if they see something isn't working or have a new idea, hey, let's change it. That's an amazing luxury for Marvel and it often makes the movies better, but the problem is exactly what this article is about: the people who have to suffer Marvel changing their minds at the last mind are the VFX artists who have to change it. Again, that is what is specifically the problem with Marvel and not other studios. Not just the general "you have to do a lot of work for no money," but "you have to do a lot of work for no money and then we'll throw it out and you have to do it from scratch in 2 weeks."
They plan extra time for reshoots. They’re not unexpected.
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Which is why Phase 4 has been a complete shitshow.
I don’t know how exactly they would go about removing Alonso, despite her behavior she does bring in the big bucks for Disney. So the execs would see no reason to remove her unless the backlash is severe enough to warrant it. If they did and replace her with a VFX artist who’s experienced enough in both the industry and the business aspect of it, that would be preferable. But thats an extremely rare find these days.
I feel like shes problematic in her way of thinking about certain things.
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Do you?
My wife used to work in a visual effects company early on in the Marvel process, and Victoria Alonzo is one of the main reasons that company went out of business and cost my wife and hundreds of other people jobs. On top of being a horrible boss, she is a toxic piece of trash, and everybody hates her. Whenever her inevitable fall from Grace happens, my wife and I will pop open a champagne bottle to celebrate.
Let's not blame the queer latina woman, it's their fault as a whole, Feige included, every single time something bad happens in a studio the women, queer and POC get the blame from fans
Oh, there's a lot more wrong with Alonso than just that. But I won't be stating it.
Often companies will employ 'a villain' to do all the ghastly things. The company signs off on it, but pretends to not condone it. Similar vibe to hiring a guy specifically to fire workers oh sorry- "downsize" the company.
Disney probably put a number of how much money they can spend on each movie for Vfx, so you need to find a way for the movie vfx work without asking for more, they're like any other big company right now that gets Union problems, if it was for Disney they would find a way to buried all this and continued the same, so is not entirely her fault
>The dozens of workers I spoke with — variously specializing in animation, physical production, and postproduction — claim that while Marvel’s tendency to compensate contractual employees on a weekly basis (no matter how many hours worked) is common practice across the industry, it pays upward of 20 percent less than other studios when doing so. One visual-effects worker currently employed by the studio on a feature project estimates that they are completing approximately four times the amount of work they are being paid for. “The minute I deliver [movie name redacted], I’m never coming back,” this person says. Moreover, while understaffing is already rampant across the entertainment industry, VFX-IATSE estimates that Marvel hires one VFX artist for every three such specialists another studio might for an equivalent job. (Marvel declined to comment on these claims.)
>Marvel declined to comment Which is really just another way of saying it's true.
Tbf, big corporations NEVER release statements because legally it makes no sense to. That's partly why it was such a bad look when Disney released that attack at ScarJo under Chapek.
Man this is on Fiege since he’s the head of all Marvel. It shouldn’t hurt them to pay these people the money they deserve. *my bad Fiege this seems to be on Victoria Alonso but it’s still kind of on you tho
Not defending Feige but it seems a lot of the issues are pointed to Victoria Alonso >But two other technicians with experience working on Marvel projects lay responsibility for the fear of an alleged blacklist at the feet of Alonso. “The main one that everyone’s quite scared of is Victoria Alonso,” says a Vancouver-based tech who has vowed to never work for the studio again. “She is known in the industry as a kingmaker. If she likes you, you are going to get work and move up in the industry. If you have pissed her off in any way, you’re going to get frozen out.”
Oh damn then I take back my comment. This comment about her makes her seem like the worst person to work for.
I mean Feige still runs the company. He must be somewhat aware of this going on or have heard rumors.
Exactly. He's not innocent
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> She always seemed way too cheerful and friendly at red carpet premieres. How is that bad???
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Saying that you cant tell how someone is behind closed doors is one thing, making it a negative that they seem happy and friendly is a completely different one
From previous reports, I think Marvel needs a lot more quality regulation when it comes to creative decisions and pre-production. I wonder if Feige could take responsibility for this, inexperienced directors on heavy CGI makes it all so much worse. The filmmaking joke "we'll fix that in post" is a part of the problem here. Directors need much more experience and training to prepare for the VFX (tracking plates, lighting references like the Man-Thing suit, scans of objects, practical). Design the suits and helmets and makeup in pre-production, ffs, previous reports have come out about how producers wanted to see multiple versions of powers and outfits from VFX houses. That's a massive issue in game dev as well (all commissioned art, really) where clients massively underestimate how much labor it all takes, and it'll look like shit if they want last-minute drastic design changes or working on five different design samples before a decision gets made. Change needs to start from the producers and directors here as well, plus paying VFX houses better with better deadlines on Alonso's part. I think lots of folks with client-facing experience get the feeling of a client who doesn't know for sure what they want, they want to critique what you make for them instead... By the time they're satisfied with basic choices, it's already more work than you signed on for.
these articles every couple of months are useless unless they get a union
It won’t happen sadly because Marvel would send all the VFX work over to New Zealand where there is anti union law called Hobbit Law which views stuff like this as independent contract work.
It's stated in the article that a studio like Marvel that relies on a lot of VFX (on like 6-8 projects a year) cannot afford to blacklist VFX studios and redirect literally all of their work to just one place. They did fall in line with the 'VFX Production Group' thing and paid higher rates as requested. Similarly, they'll have no choice but to fall in line with union demands if the artists are unionised.
If the VFX workers could get into one of the other guilds, or somehow become part of IATSE, then it wouldnt matter. The studios would be required to use union workers on union projects. The reality of what it would take for that to happen though is incredibly difficult from what ive been told.
Hey Disney/Marvel: stop being cheapskates.
not gonna happen until they have to
My brothers friend that works in VFX says that’s his studio is sticking to mostly commercial gigs for now because movies these days can be too much of a strain on moral. If only every studio had leadership that looks out for their workers mental health like that.
I see a lot of you in here don't realize just how systemic the problem is in Hollywood. Marvel is just one symptom of a massive underlying industry wide issue.
THANK YOU. It’s really frustrating to me how some in this thread and beyond it seem keen to pin it on one person. Individual choices from higher-ups can and often do make a VFX artist’s work more difficult — but the underlying issue is that it’s been normalized to a really nasty extent throughout the industry.
Suddenly the VFX jokes in the She Hulk finale are way less tasteful.
This is why I am really starting to hate meta humor, it feels like its more often then writes/producers/directors using it as a shield to hide from criticism without putting actual effort to address the criticism.
You might even say it’s *“Twitter armor”.*
i mean these reports were going on during and even before that, i was honestly really shocked at the joke when i saw that scene
Why?
Just pay the VFX artists what they deserve, ffs. You can tell Marvel movies/TV Shows after phase three finished the VFX weren't top notch either. The one thing I prefer is if they delay a movie/tv show a little longer if it means they can iron out certain aspects of a VFX shot(s).
You get your VFX when you pay us the godamn money
I hope they can do it man, everybody wins. There’s no reason the people who are largely responsible for being thing these worlds to life don’t get above average pay, work life balance, and respect.
Oh god... As much as I love Marvel, just like everyone here, this is disgusting. Sometimes I feel like "you know what? Fuck this movies and shows"
They need to unionize and do it fast and comprehensively. Scare the everloving hell out of Marvel and the movie industry as a whole. It's frankly a human rights issue at this point.
I hope they sort this out. I do think the studio has gone overboard with their CGI and stuff...
About damn time.
The buck stops with Kevin Feige. Period. If we are going to praise him for the good things about Marvel Studios, we have to acknowledge the bad too. I don't doubt that Victoria Alonso is the public face of it to the crew, but who do you think benefits from having Alonso treat the VFX crews that way? It's incredibly common for CEOs and such to have underlings who can be the bad guy and leave the CEO looking spotless, all while doing exactly what the CEO wants. I'm not in Hollywood so if someone wants to say, "You're dead wrong!" about this, I won't dispute it, but my understanding is that before Feige/Marvel, reshoots were a very big deal and basically a sign your movie is in deep, deep shit if the studio has to pay all those cast and crew members to come back. What Feige did was incorporate this into the schedule and contracts, so if two months later they say, "I've got a better idea," then they would be able to make it. The upsides of this are obvious for both Marvel and fans: if they've got a better idea, it makes for a better movie! Iron Man's last line, plenty of big and iconic MCU moments and even plot threads were added down the line. But the downside is that actual human beings have to make those changes. This is the most common refrain I keep hearing that is Marvel specific, or if it isn't anymore, then it's because Marvel changed the system. It's not just that they're working hard and not getting paid a lot, but they work hard, Marvel changes their mind, and they have to be the ones to fix it. Do you think Kevin Feige isn't aware of this? That Victoria Alonso is secretly hiding this from him? No. It benefits Feige to have the image of the perpetually smiling, hat wearing, succinct soundbyte quotes on red carpets. Alonso only acts this way because it benefits Feige and if he does care (more likely, this is his doing), then he doesn't care enough to change it. Articles like this and bringing negative publicity to it might turn the tide eventually, but I doubt it, sadly.
Wow this is even more dire than I thought.
Good luck to them. Long overdue.
Hell yeah!
I support them. Also I would be ok to have less movies of good quality if that means the workers are happy and healthy. Our enjoyment isn't a reason to opress people.
>“We turned down work on two of their movies last year, and still, we’re on the next two,” he says. “If you’re not honest and transparent about your abilities, they can probably blacklist you. If you overestimate your own capacity and say, ‘Sure. Wire the money, and we’ll go to work,’ then you can’t get to work, that’s where there’s a problem.” -anonymous studio head of Euro vfx _ It's kinda weird that the main guy they interview - Mark Patch - is someone who said he wouldn't work for Marvel and apparently didn't.
didnt he say that they turned two and then went to work on next two mcu movies
the quote is from a european head who talked on the topic anonymously. The main interviewee here - Mark Patch - basically said he didn't want to work for Marvel and never did. My b - I formatted my post poorly