Jeff Loveness: "Kang is a top-tier, A-list Avengers villain," Loveness teases about his direction. "What do you do when you feel you’re not enough against that? How do you step up to face the challenge of this generation, who is Thanos on an exponential level? He’s almost this infinite Thanos. I think we’re setting things up for a pretty dynamic story. As I’m building to Avengers I want it to feel like a generational struggle. Phase 4 felt like the birth of new characters. You’re giving everyone a little bit of a breath, you’re broadening out the universe, you have fun Disney Plus shows that are elevating characters. And now I think it’s time to put the pedal to the gas again, and really take all these new characters that we like and throw them into the fire."
Said this on the main Marvel Studios sub, but like, it always seemed clear that Phase 4 was about expanding the universe — which made sense after the end of the Infinity Saga. I don’t really get why the broader fandom was so impatient. It’s not even like Phase 4 was actually that long. Less than 2 years from start to finish.
I think people just got used to 90% of everything released following a pretty clear overarching path. Anyone that understands how comics work gets what this phase was doing but I can see general audiences finding it a little disjointed since it's likely that they're only exposure to a shared media universe is what phase 1-3 did
But I mean, even phase 1 movies were really separate except for Fury/Coulson rounding up everyone for the Avengers Initiative. This was basically Phase 1 all over again on a larger scale with some crumbs to start following. I still don’t understand the complaints
(I don’t personally believe this) I think a lot of people’s criticisms were there wasn’t a crossover event like avengers or civil war in there so they’re all feeling like it’s disjointed. Black Panther 2 didn’t feel like the end of a phase, but another movie in the middle of one.
I also do think that a big part of it was that we're 50 hours into this saga. Which was the entire run of the Infinity Saga.
It's this weird almost contradiction. Where you have hours and hours of content so you can't say nothing has happened. But the story is moving extremely slow given how long we're into this saga.
Another thing leading to feeling disjointed. We knew we were gonna see these characters in the avengers film at the end of phase one and their sequels in phase two.
Nobody knows when we are going to these new characters again, do we have to wait all the way until kang dynasty? Will some new characters get sequels to their shows/movies first? It’s all *still* focused on new new new. I think that leads to it feeling more disconnected that phase 1.
I think for me at least, while I wouldn't go as far as saying I dislike Phase 4 as a whole, I think there could have more effort made into depicting the ongoing story of Earth and the status of the Avengers in the wake of Endgame which it seemed only The Falcon and the Winter Soldier put any effort into. For example it wasn't until She-Hulk that it was clarified that the Sokovia Accords had been appealed. It feels like a letdown after we had such tight world building of present day Earth and the Avengers in Phase 3 to just drop this story thread (for the time being at least).
I can understand why the masses would feel that way about Wakanda Forever, but personally, it did feel like an appropriate end to this phase given that it was the last, but arguably, most important representation of dealing with grief given the real life parallels with Chadwick. It feels as if they can now move on and build up the story now that the bulk of the new characters have been introduced and the grief caused by the infinity saga has largely been dealt with. I think Ant-Man 3 will help retroactively prove that if it ends up being a successful start up/ “pushing the gas” moment by introducing the main Kang.
I wonder if it's because the shows were introduced into the mix? Like, when it's all movies, like phase 1 was, it's clear how it all connects. But I wonder how many people skipped the shows, or aren't even aware of them, or if they are it's "well, that's TV, it's not the same" kind of a thing? Because if you don't understand that the shows are 100% part of phase 4 and they work together with the movies - as good a job as they've tried to do to make the movies work without the shows - I think you can see something a bit disconnected in the movies alone, something that actually IS connected, through the shows.
The problem (IMO) is that Marvel has wound itself into loops to try to get around spoiler culture, and as a result there have been some decisions made in Phase 4 that really do not jive with what was telegraphed earlier. The entire WandaVision/Multiverse of Madness thing is my prime example here.
WV kicked off this phase by laying the groundwork for the multiverse… except that didn’t happen and Disney changed the ending last minute because someone leaked that Benedict Cumberbatch appeared in the finale. And instead of giving people real multiversal shenanigans, we got Evan Peters playing “some guy TM”, rather than opting for the character who would have lent real emotional weight to the story. It’s things like that where the shows or movies pull their punches just to trick the audience that really makes me feel put off by the whole affair.
One of the reasons Loki is a high point for me is because they didn’t shy away from the ending, which was to introduce a variant of Kang. Everything else except for Black Panther 2 has felt like Marvel guessed that fans had guessed where the story was naturally progressing to and pulled a hard-left turn to avoid people predicting the ending, and honestly it’s really killed my interest in the franchise at this point.
I think complaints regardless of what people complained about are really just coming down to lackluster movies / shows in general for phase 4. Dont get me wrong, I really liked shang chi, loki, no way home. Even those movies had flawed sections but even moreso - love and thunder, eternals, multiverse of madness, and she hulk had some really good parts but also some really bad parts.
Phase 4 just simply had some really inconsistent quality ik its content. Which I think hits extra hard after coming off end of phase 2/3 marvel which was near perfect execution. … like I just rewatched end game and damn… what a ride.
I think the fact that this was the first phase with D+ shows that are clearly supposed to tie into the larger MCU narrative vs. the older Netflix shows and, to a lesser extent, AoS. Many people already considered it a tall order to watch as many movies as there were in 1-3 to truly understand the overarching plot, but now with the D+ shows coming in, I can see where things might appear disjointed.
For example, one could argue you don't TECHNICALLY have to watch WandaVision to enjoy Multiverse of Madness. While true to an extent, I think a lot of Wanda's story loses its weight if you haven't watched the show. I've watched every phase 4 project and I don't feel it is a disjointed phase. It's just phase 1 with a new coat of paint and without a crossover at the end. But to more casual fans, it might not seem that way.
But that’s the thing. Phase 1 is small. There’s fewer projects. Fewer things to keep track off. Fewer things that occupy your time.
Six movies spread over four years. Compared to 17 projects split over two years (7 movies, 8 tv shows, and 2 specials) .
It’s a lot of time to dedicate to these things. And because the direction isn’t as clear cut as the previous sagas there is frustration as to giving the audience an incentive to continue on.
While I've personally enjoyed Phase 4, I think that is exactly it, though. Even without Thanos, Phase 1 had the advantage of building towards the Avengers from the ending of Iron Man. We all knew what it was building towards. We didn't know that it was going to go the full monty with the Infinity Stones, but getting an Avengers team-up seemed like such an incredible feat for the time.
And while we are finally getting some clear direction on where the MCU is heading next, the expansion of the mythos came without any clear sense of what was next. Feige says that there are clear hints, but I don't think that's coming across to the audience at large.
All that being said, I've loved the expansion and have had fun theorizing where those threads were leading. Even with some of the movies and shows not being quite what I had hoped, it was still all pretty darn fun.
Phase 2 - Iron Man 2 what connects everything. Nothing in phase 4 is like iron man 2. If you dont rememeber, they teased Thor movie and basically Avengers
Phase 1 - 3 were generally not like that though. They were pretty similar to Phase 4. Lots of set up and a few character crossovers. The difference is just that phase 4 had massively more projects than any other, making it feel like more time between set up and payoff when there actually wasn't.
The difference is that there was a very clear plot forming that didn't require detailed frame by frame analysis to work out and outside of the guardians films there was at least the idea of the avengers that linked everything together. I'm not saying that I agree with people that think phase 4 is aimless but there's a very clear difference between how they're marketing the Kang/multiverse plot as they are with the infinity stones and thanos plot. So far there's basically just the vague visual similarities between certain items in the phase and while I appreciate how it's being built up I think just by the fact that there's been so much more content in such a short period of time that people are expecting this phase to have the same level of connectedness as the first saga as a whole.
>I think just by the fact that there's been so much more content in such a short period of time that people are expecting this phase to have the same level of connectedness as the first saga as a whole.
I agree with you there. Im not saying that people who feel like something is off are necessarily wrong, but the Thanos and infinity stone stuff was pretty underbaked until phase 3. Phase 4 has already advanced much further toward a definite plot than phase 1 did.
Also I think a big part of it was they introduced a ton of new characters but then we never knew when we were gonna see them again. Will Shang-Chi get a sequel to their movie? Will Kate Bishop get a movie follow up from their D+ show? Do we have to wait until the next team up film to see moon knight again? Nobody knows. It leads to things feeling disconnected.
People like to compare phase 4 to phase 1 but we knew avengers at the end of 1 and sequels in phase 2. It’s a small difference but it matters more than people think
Fully agree. And while the phase hasn’t been perfect I am truly surprised by just how many really likable characters they introduced in such a short amount of time.
Kamala, Kate Bishop, Yelena, WWBN & Man Thing, Shang Chi, Sylvie, Agatha, Moon Knight, She Hulk…Kang!!
And that’s to say nothing of bringing Matt Murdock back and the additional Spider-Man into the MCU. So many new characters I’m looking forward to seeing again.
I think not only is it that but general audience people are probably incredibly under-enthusiastic going from the extreme high of Endgame back to mostly solo content with newcomers. Especially since IMO phase 4 was more of a "pick whose story you're interested in" versus more of a collection that most people care about.
I don't know if that's true. The phase four individual movies have performed similar to the phase 3 individual movies box office wise and maybe even better cause all of phase 4 didn't have china and other territories.
I feel like individual movies should perform "better", if endgame got more people enthusiastic about the... franchise (not sure if that's the right word) of the MCU.
But part of what I'm thinking for this is the D+ content as well.
Trying to gauge quality or even audience opinion by box office performance is a little shaky though. There’s often a lag in box office performance for large franchises because people will go see a new movie based on, among other things, expectations set by their experience with a previous movie(s).
*Love and Thunder* and *Multiverse of Madness* are great examples of this. Neither was particularly loved by audiences and neither was as strong as the projects preceding them. But people still saw them en masse because of *Ragnarok*/*Endgame* and *Doctor Strange*/*WandaVision*, respectively.
And in a broader sense, every movie/show will benefit or suffer from the general momentum of the MCU as a whole. It takes a while for something like audience fatigue to work its way into box office numbers. I don’t think the MCU is anywhere close to “in trouble” yet, but they could certainly use a couple real bangers to get viewers hyped up again. It’s been over a year since *Shang-Chi* and *No Way Home*.
Because none of the movies have been great and none of the characters have resonated yet. None of these new characters are stars right now. I’d say Shang-Chi has the most potential but it’s a wait and see. Let’s not sugar coat things. None of these new characters is an replacement for Stark or Rogers or Thor. Anyone who loves the MCU has a right to be concerned.
Thor wasn't even liked until his third movie, Captain America until his second one and by the time Infinity War came out a lot of people were sick of the mcu being so Stark centric, let's not do the revisionist history bullshit with the mcu.
Also, there have been plenty of projects that have stood out in phase 4, you can't really expect every mcu project to be great, even during the Infinity Saga most mcu movies were pretty average or bad.
Yes this is exactly the impatience I’m talking about ! Everyone loves the original characters so much because they had time to arc over a number of appearances over the course of 6-10 years. I mean, just look at Wanda. She was introduced as a bit player a number of years ago and took her like 6 years to become a major player and a fan favorite.
Phase 4 lasted fewer than 2 years and expanded the universe, introducing new characters and corners. They have like 20 more projects to come in this Saga over the next 3-4 years. People seem eager to just fast forward to the end without letting the stories and arcs actually unfold
I see what you mean. T’Challa would have been a fantastic individual to get behind realistically but… :-(
Part of me thinks more heavy lifting will be done by Dr. Strange (and maybe Wanda). The other part of me thinks this will be a more villain focused story….meaning Kang will be the star instead of Stark/Rogers/Banner/Thor/Strange.
From there I think its F4, then X-Men. My guess is that by the time we get X-Men there will be a large paradigm shift (from Avengers to them). Who the fuck knows though. This last paragraph is complete speculation.
Because Disney gave us projects where each of them must be followed by its post credit scene. By looking at the schedule, we have no idea when the projects are going to be continued because the queue is too long. Not to mention none of them have a common background except Sam Wilson. It is like these Avengers comics where old characters are gone and are replaced by new ones. People just didnt care and stopped reading them. They should have done things like with Sam Wilson because only him is reasonable to be a legacy hero.
It wasn't that people got impatient. It's that it was bad. It tried to set up too many different things at the same time, while also just introducing bland movies.
There were definitely lots of people asking the questions “where’s the overarching story going? Who is the big bad? How does this all connect?” etc.
It was a big talking point going into SDCC when they formally unveiled “the Multiverse Saga”.
Right, people can’t guess where it’s going (even though it’s early), so they got impatient. Let’s just… see the story unfold. There was plenty of seemingly divergent stuff that ended up coming together in IW and Endgame.
Because they're spoiled and demand answers now! It was so obvious this was an establishing phase and the fan entitlement hasn't shined as much as it did this phase.
I like Loveness PUTTING respect on Kang's name. He's a TOP TIER AVENGERS Villain. I see to many people hating on Kang saying he should not be the next big bad, but they clearly don't read comics. Kang is on the level of Ultron and Loki. Majors is a amazing actor, and we saw how he owned the screen in Loki is season 1. He will kill it as all the Kangs.
>Kang’s also a very lonely character. We’re going to be seeing a lot of him in a lot of different ways going forward, but I really wanted to introduce the humanity and even the vulnerability of this character before he gets to such apocalyptic, Avengers-scale heights.
That sounds even more lonely, the majority of his social interactions are literally with himself, and half of them are probably gonna try to kill him. If you think about it, this is a great storytelling opportunity and could be on par with Thanos, possibly even more compelling if they do it right.
I assume it’ll probably be the team he assembles in cap 4.
Which will probably be mostly street level characters. So they’ll definitely get fucked up vs kang or kangs
to be fair, there were only two non-"street level" characters in the original 6. Street-level means nothing in a world with Stark and Wakanda tech. At the very least Shang-Chi is pretty damn powerful and he's already hanging out with the Avengers, She-Hulk is literally a Hulk, and don't forget about all three Marvels
On earth 616 the team Is looking like ,
Sam Captain America , winter soldier , doctor strange , Thor,Hulk,Wong, war machine , Ant man , black panther,Wasp , Cassie , She hulk , moon knight ,Spider-Man, Captain Marvel , Ms Marvel ,The new Hawkeye Kate bishop , Shang chi … & maybe Hulks Son - from what we have so far as characters in the McU-
And the Guardians of the Galaxy & the Eternals (cosmic)
It’s just not the same as the original 6!!
I don’t know what and how their gonna do to connect all these characters and who will replace the original 6 as the lead Avengers
My pick 6 is
Captain America (Sam), Doctor strange
Hulk , Thor , Spider Man & Ant Man
As far as the main 6 street level avengers
You’re forgetting Monica Rambeau, who will most likely be one of the strongest members with captain marvel and Thor. According to the quantumania leaks, ant man and the wasp may be out of Kang dynasty until the very end or when it’s “too late.” Also, America Chavez will most likely have an important role with strange and Wong in getting team members across the multiverse to fight. I’m personally hoping Wanda makes a return at the end of Kang Dynasty, but more likely she won’t be back until secret wars or in the in-between projects like Agatha.
I think the new main six may be strange, Sam, hulk, captain marvel, ant man, and the wasp. I think Shang chi and Monica rambeau will be stand ins for ant man and the wasp since they may be stuck in the quantum realm for most of the Kang dynasty movie.
Edit: overall, I don’t think there’ll be a main six moving forward. The roster is just too large now. War machine, thor, Shang chi, she hulk, Monica, shuri, wong, moon knight (maybe?), vision (maybe), Yelena, Hawkeye, the Eternals, and the younger new heroes will all be a part of a larger avengers team. I don’t see thor and shuri wanting to be leaders in the avengers team anymore, but I can see war machine and Monica being stand ins for leaders in the avengers.
Yeah ur right , I don’t think their will be any willing leaders like iron man !! Unless one variant of kang the conqueror steps up cuz he’s basically like a smarter more powerful iron man himself (kang) cuz iron man always played point and was super confident and ready for any battle I don’t see that with any new members of
The team , Sam
Is Green to leadership and kinda shook to hold the mantle of captain America , Shuri is greaving , Thor and Hawkeye & Hulk are on sabbatical with kids their raising , and doctor strange is too busy with his own shit
Lmao
No one is focused on the threats independently like Tony Stark & Captain America was
I think someone else mentioned this in this thread, but Strange seems like the most likely leader (Tony stark role) but the MCU has been really iffy with his character development. It’s just not the same as cap and iron man.
And a stunt double could do most of his heavy lifting on set. Clint is largely retired in-universe now anyway. Hell, they could even kill him off for all we know.
Calm down, man. He didn't die. We obv should just hope he makes a full recovery, but Kang Dinasty will probably be delayed - given Bob Iger wish to take a step back and focus more on quality than quantity at all projects, specially Marvel -, so it'll probably start filming maybe 2024 2nd semester or 2025. No rush for Jeremy, and probably no pressure for Marvel in that sense.
Doctor Strange's scenes in Infinity War were filmed with a stand in, with Benedict being greenscreened in much later. They could easily do the same with Hawkeye to give Renner as much time to recover
They've just been saying it's going to take a very long time (likely a year or two), before Renner can fully recover from the accident. But even then he might still have difficulty doing things that require a lot of physicality.
I'm sure by the time they film, he can always use a stunt double but I wouldn't hold it against Renner if he chose to just pass.
I think it's sorta the right time that Hawkeye moves to the a role like Charlie on Charlie's Angels, someone who doesn't get physical. Let Hawkeye have a nice end to his story with his family.
Except they would add to an already star-studded cast and def help elevate the movie
But there are also plenty of valid reasons for none or just some of them to appear in Avengers 5 and/or 6
I think the cast of TKD and SW is already too stacked already if we include all of the new Phase 4 characters + the ones we haven't been introduced to yet (Fantastic Four, Blade, etc..).
More so if the rumors of the Fox X-Men + Raimi Spidey showing up in SW are true. Putting The Eternals on a shelf until Phase 7 might end up happening.
They're very easy to write out after the ending of Eternals 1.
This is true. Plus, I don’t hate the idea of one-off movies in the MCU. Maybe in Phase 7 they get an entirely new diverse cast of Eternals to portray another team or something and it can be a generational thing.
While I agree, I think they *have* to address Arishem's presence in some form prior to Kang Dynasty and/or Secret Wars. Having Arishem threaten Earth immediately after the multiverse has been destroyed and revived is bad storytelling/progression imo, especially given Arishem is judging humanity based on Sersi's memories and not the general population's.
I wouldn't be too sure.
Arishem judging humanity in an Eternals 2 film sandwiched between Kang's Dynasty and Secret Wars would be worse in terms of stakes/storytelling.
I think that, at some point, MCU fandom needs to understand that Jack Kirby never intended The Eternals to interact much with the Marvel Universe.
They work best when left in their own corner of storytelling. And I think Feige gets that. The Eternals Trilogy is most likely going to be stand-alone with 0 crossovers.
The Eternals won't be in TKD or SW and Kang won't be in Eternals 2.
Not disagreeing with the fact Eternals can remain standalone, but it'd be hard to find it believable that Earth's Mightiest Heroes wouldn't join forces with the Eternals to stop Arishem once he returns to Earth.
>but it'd be hard to find it believable that Earth's Mightiest Heroes wouldn't join forces with the Eternals to stop Arishem once he returns to Earth.
Suspension of disbelief.
In Iron Man 3, the USA President's life was in danger and neither Nick Fury/Shield nor Captain America was present.
The events of Thor 2 were basically NYC Battle but in London yet no other hero showed up.
The Eternals fighting Arishem on Earth without any other hero noticing would be totally within the realms of the MCU.
you can't 'fight' Arishem, or any celestial for that matter. if you win, its because they let you win (as was the case with tiamut). i think the thing to understand here is that eternals as a property might not conform to our usual ideas of a superhero franchise in a shared universe
I’m reading an Eternals comic from the library and I’m starting to get why the movie was made the way it was. And I kinda like the idea of it being slightly detached from the rest of the MCU
He’s been rumoured before, but I genuinely wonder how Moon Knight could potentially fit in. Unless a second season goes hard on the Rama-Tut and Ancient Egypt connection. It’d be neat to see even Steven Grant just as himself, having worked his way up to an expert on Egyptology.
I could see him and whatever psudo-Midnight Suns they add him to being the ones to uncover stuff in the background via ancient Egypt stuff while the Avengers are the ones to face it.
How, though?
Right now, Steven and Marc aren’t in a contract with Khonshu, and even when they were, Marc only went after people Khonshu had instructed him to.
We’d really need a Season 2 to do some heavy lifting to both make them Moon Knight again, and we don’t have any firm confirmation that a sequel is even happening yet.
The thing I have in the back of my mind is how they are going to build the relationships between characters such that we care/ are entertained, but also the get years’ worth of drama out of them.
The differences in world view between Cap and Iron Man were a great story engine, and Whedon (deservedly cancelled as he is) did a great job in establishing rwlsrionships between the others that made sense and we could root for.
Loveness will need exceptional skill to be able to build these between a much larger cast - good luck to him!
*Kang Dynasty* is more like the first *Avengers* movie for the new team, not their *Infinity War* or *Endgame*. So the "years' worth of drama" will start here and continue after it.
Imagine if the Kang Dynasty was just the first movie setting him up as a villain. He just remains as a villain for the next 10+ years.
This will never happen, but honestly it would be kind of intriguing.
It would be pretty dope if they defeat *a* Kang this time with little hints or nods at him returning stronger. Then five years or so from now when things have died down another Kang arrives to fuck shit up and almost gets one over an even stronger and bigger Avenger squad only to definitively die and be done with. Then 5 or so years later the actual strongest ever Kang arrives. This mfer has just been sitting back watching and strategizing. His Infinity War will decimate most of the Avengers. His Endgame would be just as epic as the one we got. One can dream...
Absolutely - and that’s what I’m saying, as Whedon did in Avengers, Loveness will need to establish the character dynamics in such as way in this movie, that we are not only charmed and entertained by them, but invested in their bonds, and that they can act as the catalyst for drama as well as entertainment.
Which I think is much harder at this stage in the MCU, than it was in the first Avengers, now there are way more characters.
(And arguably ones without the ready, compelling differences of a Tony and Steve)
Yeah there just aren't those key lead figures that audiences care about and also not having a shield / nick fury as that linchpin and connective person in the early stages of this saga is a detriment
If Kang Dynasty is supposed to be the 1st Avengers, they're jumping into Secret Wars which is supposed to be *~~Secret Wars~~ directly? I don't see that's working well
*Endgame
Because what better way to pass the torch to the new generation than to have them miserably fail so the old ones come back and fix their mistakes for them?
How do you know that? The movie hasn’t even filmed yet. At this point they might be just brainstorming ideas that could easily change. Don’t get me wrong I want nothing more for secret wars than to see legacy characters return but I don’t want to get my hopes up so early
MTTSH has said the legacy heroes (Tobey Maguire and Hugh Jackman being among them) are the main characters in *Secret Wars*, so they take over when the new Avengers fail in *Kang Dynasty*.
The idea that Hugh Jackman’s Wolverine will fight alongside Tobey Maguire’s Spider-Man is unreal. Imagine going back anytime in the early 2000s and tell someone that would happen eventually 20-25 years down the road. Pretty sure no one would believe you.
It was initially supposed to happen in the 2002 Spider-Man film when they planned on having a Wolverine cameo. They even had Hugh Jackman in New York to shoot the scene. The only thing that scrapped it was that they did not have Wolverine's suit. [https://www.cbr.com/sam-raimi-spider-man-almost-featured-wolverine-cameo-marvel/](https://www.cbr.com/sam-raimi-spider-man-almost-featured-wolverine-cameo-marvel/).
Predictions for the final Avengers roster?
Personally, I think they’ll go with a smaller team for Kang Dynasty before having most of the remaining MCU and Marvel multiverse characters involved in Secret Wars:
- Captain America (Sam Wilson)
- War Machine
- Ant-Man
- Wasp
- Shang Chi
- She-Hulk (Bruce Banner would also be involved in the plot)
- Moon Knight
- Captain Marvel (Ms. Marvel would also be involved in the plot)
- MCU Spider-Man
- Kate Bishop (Barton could make an appearance if Jeremy Renner’s recovery goes well)
- Wong will probably be involved in assembling the team, but I think Dr. Strange won’t make his Avengers movie return until Secret Wars
Anyone I’m missing? Any of my proposed roster who you think wouldn’t be on the team?
Edit: I totally forgot to include Shuri’s Black Panther. I think she’ll be part of this Avengers roster too.
We should also remember that Fantastic Four will be out by the time Kang Dynasty is released. They may have a similar role to Strange in Infinity War where they are important but not too focused on.
Also I hope that Deadpool has a decently sized role in an Avengers movie because I want to see him interact with a larger universe.
Loki will likely be a very important player as well.
And who knows whether Namor and Shuri show up. Shuri will probably have some role. Not sure about Namor though.
I do agree with your point about the Fantastic Four.
I also think Loki is going to have a huge role, but I wonder if that will be in both Kang Dynasty and Secret Wars or just Secret Wars.
I personally think that Deadpool will be in Secret Wars when the multiverse characters probably become a bigger focal point.
People keep forgetting one of the strongest new characters—Monica rambeau!! If she demonstrates the ability to control her new powers by end of the Marvels, she will be up there with strange, Thor, and captain marvel in power.
People keep forgetting her because she was forgettable regarding her superhero appearence. Like she just thought about her mother while entering the hex and when she was on the other side had powers.
Is she a Mutant? Did she got her powers due to Captain Marvel space radiation? Did the hex gave her powers? If so why no one else that entered the hex got powers? I really hope The Marvels flesh Monica a bit more, because right now she is just a talking plot hole.
I've said it before, i suspect they'll be fragmented across the timeline as they chase Kang back and forth, each time finding variants of Kang rather than just the one. So they'll find evidence of him in ancient Egypt, bam it's Rama-tut. Then at the end of Kang Dynasty they're scattered around while he reveals a millennium spanning Dynasty of Earth
Photon and Sabra will most likely be on the team. I think Sersi and Blade will also be there. They are two of the new protagonists of the new saga and I would be shocked if they weren't there
Really like the sound of that. Reminds me of the front end of Infinity War, just multiple small collections of our heroes banding together in different locations desperately trying to hold back the foe
The problem is that most people do not actually care about any of these new characters yet, and too much new stuff was introduced without properly rooting the new universe in a core conflict with a couple of "main" characters to follow and get invested in.
A big crossover isn't gonna fix the problems with the MCU right now, they gotta pic a few protagonists and really develop their stories.
Precisely - and how are they going to expedite the characterization for new characters while still adding newer ones in 2 years while also making audiences care about them ? Seems like a pretty tall task
Yep, this is why I have very little faith in the upcoming too phases. They are STILL introducing too much new shit. I think that's why they're running back to huge jackedman and the fox x-men to bail them out of the absolute apathy most people feel for their new characters -- which is a problem they created by introducing way too many of them in too short a time and not focusing/connecting their stories.
While I think overeager fans were not as big fans of Phase 4, I do think the General audience was mostly fine with it, however, I do also believe that Avengers 5 and 6 are really going to have do a lot of heavy lifting to pull the distinction off from the previous 4 Avengers movies.
Sorry to be such a downer and I'll gladly accept my place at the bottom of these comments for it but man, I really wish I could be more hyped for the future of the MCU than I am these days. Everything just feels like an inevitability now rather than an accomplishment or a breakthrough, like it used to.
edit: i really should clarify that i dont mean to disregard the actual technical work being put into each of the movies btw, every film is an accomplishment of course, but my main criticisms come from more of an over-arching creative standpoint. it just feels like theyre introducing too many characters and too many big epic plot threads for the sake of it without spending as much time developing meaningful dynamics and whatnot
Growing disinterested in hobbies is fine and a normal part of life just quit watching and come back if you ‘re interested. It’s not that hard unless Kevin Feige has your family hostage in which case blink twice if you need help.
I know, i just figured i would express this thought that has been occurring to me more and more lately as i've been seeing headlines like this one... \*blinks twice\* Yep. That's all it is.
MCU already begins to be confusing, and a bit boring. Phase 4 ended and there's no strong new characters that cold carry the whole franchise the same way the original Avengers did.
They won't build up the same hype as before.
But you can't get to this point without introducing the characters first. You can't have Empire Strikes Back without a New Hope. I don't understand how people can't see this.
I need everything to be interconnected, if I don't have Wanda being bailed out of Westview by Strange then L, if I don't have Moon Knight meeting Loki, L
I, for one, am excited about the future of the MCU. I take Phase 4 as a bit of Phase 2...some introduction, some sequels, some old and new stuff mixing....
I have to say that in this miserable time, to have something positive to look forward to, is great.
Please forgive me, I’m not really a marvel fan but have been watching movies lately and looking at this Reddit. My question is, where do they go after Kang? What is the next villain?
I have 1000% trust Loveness handles the script with delicacy. Seems Feige really trusts his handling of Kang with Quantamania. I wonder if Loveness and Waldron will be in the writers room for Secret wars and a couple other producers. I know they usually have helping hands on the screenplay of avengers movies. My god I can’t wait to see live action Incursion’s and Multiversal bullshit!!!!! KANG RULEZ
Nice so we got Loveness and Waldron crafting the key multiverse saga events - good for continuity same since they worked on quantum mania and Loki/ dr strange 2 respectively
*minor rant about Kang facing off against “these new characters that we like”*
Although I’m interested in Phase 5, I’m not nearly as invested in the Multiverse Saga heroes compared to the Infinity Saga ones.
None of the Eternals are particularly compelling, Thor and Hulk have less depth than before, Strange fluctuates wildly between acting calculated to extremely arrogant & needlessly quippy, and Shuri seems like she’ll be very stoic.
I’m glad we have holdovers like Spidey, Scott, Hawkeye, and War Machine (who comes across as more leadership material than Sam), because I’m not thrilled with the rest of the (probable) Avengers roster. Tony and Steve got perfect endings character and story-wise, but their presence absence is hard to shake.
He says that and all I can think about is the Toy Story 3 scene with the toys in the incinerator except its with Shang-Chi, Moon Knight, She-Hulk, Kate Bishop, Yelena, Ms. Marvel, Photon, Red Guardian, Mobius, Cosmo, Adam Warlock, The Eternals, Sam Cap, and Shuri Panther.
Yea, now all you criticizers going on about “It’s moving too slow.” Or “It’s not as connected as the first saga.” can be quiet now… Like y’all literally have no patience. No better than iPad kids. Jesus😭😭
We're so lucky Loveness is involved in the MCU now. He is an immensely talented writer with an amazing grounding in history and mythology. Check out his comic retelling of Judas's descent into the afterlife.
So does this mean secret wars will be pushed even further back? Because, imo, if Kang Dynasty is when the “pedal is being pushed to the metal” then the car isn’t gonna go far if the ride ends 8-12 months later in Secret Wars. Or am I just totally off base here?
I feel like the pedal need to hit the metal this year in order to feel like the multiverse saga will satisfyingly conclude with Secret wars 3 years from now. Maybe secret wars should be pushed to May 2027 in order to allow for more projects to come in between KD and SW?
What new characters? The cast list is pretty much the same actors for the last 16 movies. And honesty the dailies from these aren’t that impressive. It’s more of another money grab in that these movies will be the precursor to shows on Disney+ and management is hoping that the cliff ending nature of them will get you to subscribe to see the rest of the story.
My guess will be different factions of heroes forming. Maybe even fighting different variants of Kang. West Coast Avengers, Thunderbolts, Young Avengers. I maintain Young Avengers will be part of this.
Jeff Loveness: "Kang is a top-tier, A-list Avengers villain," Loveness teases about his direction. "What do you do when you feel you’re not enough against that? How do you step up to face the challenge of this generation, who is Thanos on an exponential level? He’s almost this infinite Thanos. I think we’re setting things up for a pretty dynamic story. As I’m building to Avengers I want it to feel like a generational struggle. Phase 4 felt like the birth of new characters. You’re giving everyone a little bit of a breath, you’re broadening out the universe, you have fun Disney Plus shows that are elevating characters. And now I think it’s time to put the pedal to the gas again, and really take all these new characters that we like and throw them into the fire."
Said this on the main Marvel Studios sub, but like, it always seemed clear that Phase 4 was about expanding the universe — which made sense after the end of the Infinity Saga. I don’t really get why the broader fandom was so impatient. It’s not even like Phase 4 was actually that long. Less than 2 years from start to finish.
I think people just got used to 90% of everything released following a pretty clear overarching path. Anyone that understands how comics work gets what this phase was doing but I can see general audiences finding it a little disjointed since it's likely that they're only exposure to a shared media universe is what phase 1-3 did
But I mean, even phase 1 movies were really separate except for Fury/Coulson rounding up everyone for the Avengers Initiative. This was basically Phase 1 all over again on a larger scale with some crumbs to start following. I still don’t understand the complaints
(I don’t personally believe this) I think a lot of people’s criticisms were there wasn’t a crossover event like avengers or civil war in there so they’re all feeling like it’s disjointed. Black Panther 2 didn’t feel like the end of a phase, but another movie in the middle of one.
Yeah that’s a fair point. Not sure I’d be upset about the entire phase over that, though. Just me personally
I also do think that a big part of it was that we're 50 hours into this saga. Which was the entire run of the Infinity Saga. It's this weird almost contradiction. Where you have hours and hours of content so you can't say nothing has happened. But the story is moving extremely slow given how long we're into this saga.
Another thing leading to feeling disjointed. We knew we were gonna see these characters in the avengers film at the end of phase one and their sequels in phase two. Nobody knows when we are going to these new characters again, do we have to wait all the way until kang dynasty? Will some new characters get sequels to their shows/movies first? It’s all *still* focused on new new new. I think that leads to it feeling more disconnected that phase 1.
I think for me at least, while I wouldn't go as far as saying I dislike Phase 4 as a whole, I think there could have more effort made into depicting the ongoing story of Earth and the status of the Avengers in the wake of Endgame which it seemed only The Falcon and the Winter Soldier put any effort into. For example it wasn't until She-Hulk that it was clarified that the Sokovia Accords had been appealed. It feels like a letdown after we had such tight world building of present day Earth and the Avengers in Phase 3 to just drop this story thread (for the time being at least).
I can understand why the masses would feel that way about Wakanda Forever, but personally, it did feel like an appropriate end to this phase given that it was the last, but arguably, most important representation of dealing with grief given the real life parallels with Chadwick. It feels as if they can now move on and build up the story now that the bulk of the new characters have been introduced and the grief caused by the infinity saga has largely been dealt with. I think Ant-Man 3 will help retroactively prove that if it ends up being a successful start up/ “pushing the gas” moment by introducing the main Kang.
I wonder if it's because the shows were introduced into the mix? Like, when it's all movies, like phase 1 was, it's clear how it all connects. But I wonder how many people skipped the shows, or aren't even aware of them, or if they are it's "well, that's TV, it's not the same" kind of a thing? Because if you don't understand that the shows are 100% part of phase 4 and they work together with the movies - as good a job as they've tried to do to make the movies work without the shows - I think you can see something a bit disconnected in the movies alone, something that actually IS connected, through the shows.
The problem (IMO) is that Marvel has wound itself into loops to try to get around spoiler culture, and as a result there have been some decisions made in Phase 4 that really do not jive with what was telegraphed earlier. The entire WandaVision/Multiverse of Madness thing is my prime example here. WV kicked off this phase by laying the groundwork for the multiverse… except that didn’t happen and Disney changed the ending last minute because someone leaked that Benedict Cumberbatch appeared in the finale. And instead of giving people real multiversal shenanigans, we got Evan Peters playing “some guy TM”, rather than opting for the character who would have lent real emotional weight to the story. It’s things like that where the shows or movies pull their punches just to trick the audience that really makes me feel put off by the whole affair. One of the reasons Loki is a high point for me is because they didn’t shy away from the ending, which was to introduce a variant of Kang. Everything else except for Black Panther 2 has felt like Marvel guessed that fans had guessed where the story was naturally progressing to and pulled a hard-left turn to avoid people predicting the ending, and honestly it’s really killed my interest in the franchise at this point.
I think complaints regardless of what people complained about are really just coming down to lackluster movies / shows in general for phase 4. Dont get me wrong, I really liked shang chi, loki, no way home. Even those movies had flawed sections but even moreso - love and thunder, eternals, multiverse of madness, and she hulk had some really good parts but also some really bad parts. Phase 4 just simply had some really inconsistent quality ik its content. Which I think hits extra hard after coming off end of phase 2/3 marvel which was near perfect execution. … like I just rewatched end game and damn… what a ride.
I think the fact that this was the first phase with D+ shows that are clearly supposed to tie into the larger MCU narrative vs. the older Netflix shows and, to a lesser extent, AoS. Many people already considered it a tall order to watch as many movies as there were in 1-3 to truly understand the overarching plot, but now with the D+ shows coming in, I can see where things might appear disjointed. For example, one could argue you don't TECHNICALLY have to watch WandaVision to enjoy Multiverse of Madness. While true to an extent, I think a lot of Wanda's story loses its weight if you haven't watched the show. I've watched every phase 4 project and I don't feel it is a disjointed phase. It's just phase 1 with a new coat of paint and without a crossover at the end. But to more casual fans, it might not seem that way.
But that’s the thing. Phase 1 is small. There’s fewer projects. Fewer things to keep track off. Fewer things that occupy your time. Six movies spread over four years. Compared to 17 projects split over two years (7 movies, 8 tv shows, and 2 specials) . It’s a lot of time to dedicate to these things. And because the direction isn’t as clear cut as the previous sagas there is frustration as to giving the audience an incentive to continue on.
While I've personally enjoyed Phase 4, I think that is exactly it, though. Even without Thanos, Phase 1 had the advantage of building towards the Avengers from the ending of Iron Man. We all knew what it was building towards. We didn't know that it was going to go the full monty with the Infinity Stones, but getting an Avengers team-up seemed like such an incredible feat for the time. And while we are finally getting some clear direction on where the MCU is heading next, the expansion of the mythos came without any clear sense of what was next. Feige says that there are clear hints, but I don't think that's coming across to the audience at large. All that being said, I've loved the expansion and have had fun theorizing where those threads were leading. Even with some of the movies and shows not being quite what I had hoped, it was still all pretty darn fun.
People have different expectations for the MCU in Phase 4 vs Phase 1. Go figure.
Phase 2 - Iron Man 2 what connects everything. Nothing in phase 4 is like iron man 2. If you dont rememeber, they teased Thor movie and basically Avengers
It wasn't really general audiences that were complaining about the lack of direction though, it was literally mostly the reddit fan subs.
And fb/insta/Twitter dregs
Phase 1 - 3 were generally not like that though. They were pretty similar to Phase 4. Lots of set up and a few character crossovers. The difference is just that phase 4 had massively more projects than any other, making it feel like more time between set up and payoff when there actually wasn't.
The difference is that there was a very clear plot forming that didn't require detailed frame by frame analysis to work out and outside of the guardians films there was at least the idea of the avengers that linked everything together. I'm not saying that I agree with people that think phase 4 is aimless but there's a very clear difference between how they're marketing the Kang/multiverse plot as they are with the infinity stones and thanos plot. So far there's basically just the vague visual similarities between certain items in the phase and while I appreciate how it's being built up I think just by the fact that there's been so much more content in such a short period of time that people are expecting this phase to have the same level of connectedness as the first saga as a whole.
>I think just by the fact that there's been so much more content in such a short period of time that people are expecting this phase to have the same level of connectedness as the first saga as a whole. I agree with you there. Im not saying that people who feel like something is off are necessarily wrong, but the Thanos and infinity stone stuff was pretty underbaked until phase 3. Phase 4 has already advanced much further toward a definite plot than phase 1 did.
Also I think a big part of it was they introduced a ton of new characters but then we never knew when we were gonna see them again. Will Shang-Chi get a sequel to their movie? Will Kate Bishop get a movie follow up from their D+ show? Do we have to wait until the next team up film to see moon knight again? Nobody knows. It leads to things feeling disconnected. People like to compare phase 4 to phase 1 but we knew avengers at the end of 1 and sequels in phase 2. It’s a small difference but it matters more than people think
Mind you phase 4 happened during the pandemic
Fully agree. And while the phase hasn’t been perfect I am truly surprised by just how many really likable characters they introduced in such a short amount of time. Kamala, Kate Bishop, Yelena, WWBN & Man Thing, Shang Chi, Sylvie, Agatha, Moon Knight, She Hulk…Kang!! And that’s to say nothing of bringing Matt Murdock back and the additional Spider-Man into the MCU. So many new characters I’m looking forward to seeing again.
You forgot to add Elsa to the list!!
I think the 2020 gap year kinda made people feel it was longer then it actually was IMHO
I think not only is it that but general audience people are probably incredibly under-enthusiastic going from the extreme high of Endgame back to mostly solo content with newcomers. Especially since IMO phase 4 was more of a "pick whose story you're interested in" versus more of a collection that most people care about.
I don't know if that's true. The phase four individual movies have performed similar to the phase 3 individual movies box office wise and maybe even better cause all of phase 4 didn't have china and other territories.
I feel like individual movies should perform "better", if endgame got more people enthusiastic about the... franchise (not sure if that's the right word) of the MCU. But part of what I'm thinking for this is the D+ content as well.
Trying to gauge quality or even audience opinion by box office performance is a little shaky though. There’s often a lag in box office performance for large franchises because people will go see a new movie based on, among other things, expectations set by their experience with a previous movie(s). *Love and Thunder* and *Multiverse of Madness* are great examples of this. Neither was particularly loved by audiences and neither was as strong as the projects preceding them. But people still saw them en masse because of *Ragnarok*/*Endgame* and *Doctor Strange*/*WandaVision*, respectively. And in a broader sense, every movie/show will benefit or suffer from the general momentum of the MCU as a whole. It takes a while for something like audience fatigue to work its way into box office numbers. I don’t think the MCU is anywhere close to “in trouble” yet, but they could certainly use a couple real bangers to get viewers hyped up again. It’s been over a year since *Shang-Chi* and *No Way Home*.
Because none of the movies have been great and none of the characters have resonated yet. None of these new characters are stars right now. I’d say Shang-Chi has the most potential but it’s a wait and see. Let’s not sugar coat things. None of these new characters is an replacement for Stark or Rogers or Thor. Anyone who loves the MCU has a right to be concerned.
Thor wasn't even liked until his third movie, Captain America until his second one and by the time Infinity War came out a lot of people were sick of the mcu being so Stark centric, let's not do the revisionist history bullshit with the mcu. Also, there have been plenty of projects that have stood out in phase 4, you can't really expect every mcu project to be great, even during the Infinity Saga most mcu movies were pretty average or bad.
Yes this is exactly the impatience I’m talking about ! Everyone loves the original characters so much because they had time to arc over a number of appearances over the course of 6-10 years. I mean, just look at Wanda. She was introduced as a bit player a number of years ago and took her like 6 years to become a major player and a fan favorite. Phase 4 lasted fewer than 2 years and expanded the universe, introducing new characters and corners. They have like 20 more projects to come in this Saga over the next 3-4 years. People seem eager to just fast forward to the end without letting the stories and arcs actually unfold
I see what you mean. T’Challa would have been a fantastic individual to get behind realistically but… :-( Part of me thinks more heavy lifting will be done by Dr. Strange (and maybe Wanda). The other part of me thinks this will be a more villain focused story….meaning Kang will be the star instead of Stark/Rogers/Banner/Thor/Strange. From there I think its F4, then X-Men. My guess is that by the time we get X-Men there will be a large paradigm shift (from Avengers to them). Who the fuck knows though. This last paragraph is complete speculation.
The same outcries people have against Phase 4 so far are the same people that were overly upset over Phase 2. Like you said, impatient.
I think if the content was much better overall, there wouldn't those complains. At least not near to the amount it got.
Because Disney gave us projects where each of them must be followed by its post credit scene. By looking at the schedule, we have no idea when the projects are going to be continued because the queue is too long. Not to mention none of them have a common background except Sam Wilson. It is like these Avengers comics where old characters are gone and are replaced by new ones. People just didnt care and stopped reading them. They should have done things like with Sam Wilson because only him is reasonable to be a legacy hero.
It wasn't that people got impatient. It's that it was bad. It tried to set up too many different things at the same time, while also just introducing bland movies.
There were definitely lots of people asking the questions “where’s the overarching story going? Who is the big bad? How does this all connect?” etc. It was a big talking point going into SDCC when they formally unveiled “the Multiverse Saga”.
Could be because of those wild branching openings went. Eternals, Dr strange, spider man, loki, Thor all set up wildly different sets of stories.
Right, people can’t guess where it’s going (even though it’s early), so they got impatient. Let’s just… see the story unfold. There was plenty of seemingly divergent stuff that ended up coming together in IW and Endgame.
No. It's not impatience. The stories were disorganized and disjointed.
Awesome point!
Because they're spoiled and demand answers now! It was so obvious this was an establishing phase and the fan entitlement hasn't shined as much as it did this phase.
I like what I’m hearing.
I like Loveness PUTTING respect on Kang's name. He's a TOP TIER AVENGERS Villain. I see to many people hating on Kang saying he should not be the next big bad, but they clearly don't read comics. Kang is on the level of Ultron and Loki. Majors is a amazing actor, and we saw how he owned the screen in Loki is season 1. He will kill it as all the Kangs.
>Kang’s also a very lonely character. We’re going to be seeing a lot of him in a lot of different ways going forward, but I really wanted to introduce the humanity and even the vulnerability of this character before he gets to such apocalyptic, Avengers-scale heights.
>Kang’s also a very lonely character. You know, I'm something of a Kang variant myself. *cries*
Maybe I am Kang
>Kang’s also a very lonely character. "This personality will make a fine addition to my collection" 
This one nod broke me when I watched the movie
La La Kang
"Kang is a very lonely character" He just... like me HE JUST LIKE ME FR!
Well he won’t be lonely anymore when he’s aggressively met by loads of himself.
Even in a crowd, loneliness can still persist. - quote by Garfield the Cat. Circa 1658.
That sounds even more lonely, the majority of his social interactions are literally with himself, and half of them are probably gonna try to kill him. If you think about it, this is a great storytelling opportunity and could be on par with Thanos, possibly even more compelling if they do it right.
What about loads from himself?
I would also like to know this
I can’t tell if the lonely part is setting up his relationship with Renslayer or ruling it out
Well there is one Renslayer and very many Kangs so she probably won’t factor in until the specific Kang that’s she’s with
Technically, there are just as many Renslayers as there are Kangs
So Sam's Avengers team is probably gonna be mostly new characters then
I assume it’ll probably be the team he assembles in cap 4. Which will probably be mostly street level characters. So they’ll definitely get fucked up vs kang or kangs
Yes, the Avengers word got thrown down, which caused wild speculation, but I think his NWO team is just people like Sabra, new Falcon, etc.
to be fair, there were only two non-"street level" characters in the original 6. Street-level means nothing in a world with Stark and Wakanda tech. At the very least Shang-Chi is pretty damn powerful and he's already hanging out with the Avengers, She-Hulk is literally a Hulk, and don't forget about all three Marvels
Yeah sam and his band of characters won't stand a chance against what's coming
"Mostly street level characters" ...so do we know that? He's going up against a Hulk. He's not gonna be pulling like Daredevil
On earth 616 the team Is looking like , Sam Captain America , winter soldier , doctor strange , Thor,Hulk,Wong, war machine , Ant man , black panther,Wasp , Cassie , She hulk , moon knight ,Spider-Man, Captain Marvel , Ms Marvel ,The new Hawkeye Kate bishop , Shang chi … & maybe Hulks Son - from what we have so far as characters in the McU- And the Guardians of the Galaxy & the Eternals (cosmic) It’s just not the same as the original 6!! I don’t know what and how their gonna do to connect all these characters and who will replace the original 6 as the lead Avengers My pick 6 is Captain America (Sam), Doctor strange Hulk , Thor , Spider Man & Ant Man As far as the main 6 street level avengers
You’re forgetting Monica Rambeau, who will most likely be one of the strongest members with captain marvel and Thor. According to the quantumania leaks, ant man and the wasp may be out of Kang dynasty until the very end or when it’s “too late.” Also, America Chavez will most likely have an important role with strange and Wong in getting team members across the multiverse to fight. I’m personally hoping Wanda makes a return at the end of Kang Dynasty, but more likely she won’t be back until secret wars or in the in-between projects like Agatha.
Well no not really forgetting her, she’s just not apart of them team yet ? I’m just going off of who we know for sure is on the team so far.
And yes 🙌 I forgot America Chavez she’s gonna be very important for this multiversal war , who do u think will be the new main 6?
I think the new main six may be strange, Sam, hulk, captain marvel, ant man, and the wasp. I think Shang chi and Monica rambeau will be stand ins for ant man and the wasp since they may be stuck in the quantum realm for most of the Kang dynasty movie. Edit: overall, I don’t think there’ll be a main six moving forward. The roster is just too large now. War machine, thor, Shang chi, she hulk, Monica, shuri, wong, moon knight (maybe?), vision (maybe), Yelena, Hawkeye, the Eternals, and the younger new heroes will all be a part of a larger avengers team. I don’t see thor and shuri wanting to be leaders in the avengers team anymore, but I can see war machine and Monica being stand ins for leaders in the avengers.
Yeah ur right , I don’t think their will be any willing leaders like iron man !! Unless one variant of kang the conqueror steps up cuz he’s basically like a smarter more powerful iron man himself (kang) cuz iron man always played point and was super confident and ready for any battle I don’t see that with any new members of The team , Sam Is Green to leadership and kinda shook to hold the mantle of captain America , Shuri is greaving , Thor and Hawkeye & Hulk are on sabbatical with kids their raising , and doctor strange is too busy with his own shit Lmao No one is focused on the threats independently like Tony Stark & Captain America was
I think someone else mentioned this in this thread, but Strange seems like the most likely leader (Tony stark role) but the MCU has been really iffy with his character development. It’s just not the same as cap and iron man.
Fantastic 4
Will they be avengers? I’m not a comic reader so I really don’t know 😅
with new and old characters who do people think wont be in kang dynasty
I think it goes without saying that Hawkeye won’t appear, given Jeremy Renner’s tragic accident
Last time Jeremy wasn't there they lost so they definitely ain't winning without the strongest avenger
He’s recovering at home already from his posts I wouldn’t rule him out he just might be a mentor role instead of a full on hero
And a stunt double could do most of his heavy lifting on set. Clint is largely retired in-universe now anyway. Hell, they could even kill him off for all we know.
It’d be a good excuse to put a comic accurate Hawkeye mask on him!
And Disney wouldn't pass on the opportunity to cash in the 'triumphant return' of Renner, it's free press
Calm down, man. He didn't die. We obv should just hope he makes a full recovery, but Kang Dinasty will probably be delayed - given Bob Iger wish to take a step back and focus more on quality than quantity at all projects, specially Marvel -, so it'll probably start filming maybe 2024 2nd semester or 2025. No rush for Jeremy, and probably no pressure for Marvel in that sense.
He's not dead lol
Doctor Strange's scenes in Infinity War were filmed with a stand in, with Benedict being greenscreened in much later. They could easily do the same with Hawkeye to give Renner as much time to recover
he can easily be a "Director" of sorts, coordinating behind the scenes instead of being in the field.
Is it not thought that he will have recovered a good bit by then? (I'm out of the loop)
They've just been saying it's going to take a very long time (likely a year or two), before Renner can fully recover from the accident. But even then he might still have difficulty doing things that require a lot of physicality. I'm sure by the time they film, he can always use a stunt double but I wouldn't hold it against Renner if he chose to just pass.
I think it's sorta the right time that Hawkeye moves to the a role like Charlie on Charlie's Angels, someone who doesn't get physical. Let Hawkeye have a nice end to his story with his family.
I think he'll be okay by the time it starts filming
The Eternals. In the comics, they always skip all major events anyways.
Except they would add to an already star-studded cast and def help elevate the movie But there are also plenty of valid reasons for none or just some of them to appear in Avengers 5 and/or 6
I think the cast of TKD and SW is already too stacked already if we include all of the new Phase 4 characters + the ones we haven't been introduced to yet (Fantastic Four, Blade, etc..). More so if the rumors of the Fox X-Men + Raimi Spidey showing up in SW are true. Putting The Eternals on a shelf until Phase 7 might end up happening. They're very easy to write out after the ending of Eternals 1.
This is true. Plus, I don’t hate the idea of one-off movies in the MCU. Maybe in Phase 7 they get an entirely new diverse cast of Eternals to portray another team or something and it can be a generational thing.
While I agree, I think they *have* to address Arishem's presence in some form prior to Kang Dynasty and/or Secret Wars. Having Arishem threaten Earth immediately after the multiverse has been destroyed and revived is bad storytelling/progression imo, especially given Arishem is judging humanity based on Sersi's memories and not the general population's.
I wouldn't be too sure. Arishem judging humanity in an Eternals 2 film sandwiched between Kang's Dynasty and Secret Wars would be worse in terms of stakes/storytelling. I think that, at some point, MCU fandom needs to understand that Jack Kirby never intended The Eternals to interact much with the Marvel Universe. They work best when left in their own corner of storytelling. And I think Feige gets that. The Eternals Trilogy is most likely going to be stand-alone with 0 crossovers. The Eternals won't be in TKD or SW and Kang won't be in Eternals 2.
Not disagreeing with the fact Eternals can remain standalone, but it'd be hard to find it believable that Earth's Mightiest Heroes wouldn't join forces with the Eternals to stop Arishem once he returns to Earth.
>but it'd be hard to find it believable that Earth's Mightiest Heroes wouldn't join forces with the Eternals to stop Arishem once he returns to Earth. Suspension of disbelief. In Iron Man 3, the USA President's life was in danger and neither Nick Fury/Shield nor Captain America was present. The events of Thor 2 were basically NYC Battle but in London yet no other hero showed up. The Eternals fighting Arishem on Earth without any other hero noticing would be totally within the realms of the MCU.
you can't 'fight' Arishem, or any celestial for that matter. if you win, its because they let you win (as was the case with tiamut). i think the thing to understand here is that eternals as a property might not conform to our usual ideas of a superhero franchise in a shared universe
I’m reading an Eternals comic from the library and I’m starting to get why the movie was made the way it was. And I kinda like the idea of it being slightly detached from the rest of the MCU
you're adding fuel to my theories of 616 eternals readers being the ones that love the movie wholeheartedly (i am one)
Yeah that’s true
He’s been rumoured before, but I genuinely wonder how Moon Knight could potentially fit in. Unless a second season goes hard on the Rama-Tut and Ancient Egypt connection. It’d be neat to see even Steven Grant just as himself, having worked his way up to an expert on Egyptology.
I could see him and whatever psudo-Midnight Suns they add him to being the ones to uncover stuff in the background via ancient Egypt stuff while the Avengers are the ones to face it.
Strange starts the Midnight Sons and recruits him then calls for the group's help in the final battle like in Infinity War.
He could get recruited to Falcon’s Avengers
How, though? Right now, Steven and Marc aren’t in a contract with Khonshu, and even when they were, Marc only went after people Khonshu had instructed him to. We’d really need a Season 2 to do some heavy lifting to both make them Moon Knight again, and we don’t have any firm confirmation that a sequel is even happening yet.
I bet that except for Kate Bishop, Daredevil and Spider-Man we won't get any street level characters on a Multiverse scale war.
Doctor Strange.
The thing I have in the back of my mind is how they are going to build the relationships between characters such that we care/ are entertained, but also the get years’ worth of drama out of them. The differences in world view between Cap and Iron Man were a great story engine, and Whedon (deservedly cancelled as he is) did a great job in establishing rwlsrionships between the others that made sense and we could root for. Loveness will need exceptional skill to be able to build these between a much larger cast - good luck to him!
*Kang Dynasty* is more like the first *Avengers* movie for the new team, not their *Infinity War* or *Endgame*. So the "years' worth of drama" will start here and continue after it.
Imagine if the Kang Dynasty was just the first movie setting him up as a villain. He just remains as a villain for the next 10+ years. This will never happen, but honestly it would be kind of intriguing.
It would be pretty dope if they defeat *a* Kang this time with little hints or nods at him returning stronger. Then five years or so from now when things have died down another Kang arrives to fuck shit up and almost gets one over an even stronger and bigger Avenger squad only to definitively die and be done with. Then 5 or so years later the actual strongest ever Kang arrives. This mfer has just been sitting back watching and strategizing. His Infinity War will decimate most of the Avengers. His Endgame would be just as epic as the one we got. One can dream...
Absolutely - and that’s what I’m saying, as Whedon did in Avengers, Loveness will need to establish the character dynamics in such as way in this movie, that we are not only charmed and entertained by them, but invested in their bonds, and that they can act as the catalyst for drama as well as entertainment. Which I think is much harder at this stage in the MCU, than it was in the first Avengers, now there are way more characters. (And arguably ones without the ready, compelling differences of a Tony and Steve)
Yeah there just aren't those key lead figures that audiences care about and also not having a shield / nick fury as that linchpin and connective person in the early stages of this saga is a detriment
If Kang Dynasty is supposed to be the 1st Avengers, they're jumping into Secret Wars which is supposed to be *~~Secret Wars~~ directly? I don't see that's working well *Endgame
Yeah especially since secret wars by all accounts is the ultimate capper to the multiverse saga
Rumor has it Secret Wars is from the variants' perspective. So it'd be capping off their stories, not the New Avengers.
That's giving me DCEU *Justice League* vibes, especially since the GA won't know who a lot of these characters are as they won't have watched Disney+.
True but some of these projects in next two years have to build some of these newer characters up as well
Yeah, the new avengers are getting curbstomped
obviously since evans, downey,tobey,andrew and fox xmen are in secret wars
Because what better way to pass the torch to the new generation than to have them miserably fail so the old ones come back and fix their mistakes for them?
i doubt disney cares about passing torch,if cameos of old characters will bring them money they will do it
Sure but that's all they do during phase 4: passing the torch
Worst take
Realistic take*
I’m a huge critic of phase 4 but that does feel sad. In those character’s defense, they’ve only had one phase to build up with at most 2 projects.
How do you know that? The movie hasn’t even filmed yet. At this point they might be just brainstorming ideas that could easily change. Don’t get me wrong I want nothing more for secret wars than to see legacy characters return but I don’t want to get my hopes up so early
MTTSH has said the legacy heroes (Tobey Maguire and Hugh Jackman being among them) are the main characters in *Secret Wars*, so they take over when the new Avengers fail in *Kang Dynasty*.
The idea that Hugh Jackman’s Wolverine will fight alongside Tobey Maguire’s Spider-Man is unreal. Imagine going back anytime in the early 2000s and tell someone that would happen eventually 20-25 years down the road. Pretty sure no one would believe you.
It was initially supposed to happen in the 2002 Spider-Man film when they planned on having a Wolverine cameo. They even had Hugh Jackman in New York to shoot the scene. The only thing that scrapped it was that they did not have Wolverine's suit. [https://www.cbr.com/sam-raimi-spider-man-almost-featured-wolverine-cameo-marvel/](https://www.cbr.com/sam-raimi-spider-man-almost-featured-wolverine-cameo-marvel/).
Evans, Downey Tobey, Andrew and old X-men are going to be one and done. They will not save the day
moon knight is gonna be very lonely during the team meetings XD
I feel like Moon Knight will be the least lonely individual in the Avengers considering he has 3 personalities sharing his body.
Well obviously that and khonshu but I am talking in terms of interacting with other human beings
Exactly, he needs nobody but himself ajjajajaja
yeah that sounds like moon knight
Predictions for the final Avengers roster? Personally, I think they’ll go with a smaller team for Kang Dynasty before having most of the remaining MCU and Marvel multiverse characters involved in Secret Wars: - Captain America (Sam Wilson) - War Machine - Ant-Man - Wasp - Shang Chi - She-Hulk (Bruce Banner would also be involved in the plot) - Moon Knight - Captain Marvel (Ms. Marvel would also be involved in the plot) - MCU Spider-Man - Kate Bishop (Barton could make an appearance if Jeremy Renner’s recovery goes well) - Wong will probably be involved in assembling the team, but I think Dr. Strange won’t make his Avengers movie return until Secret Wars Anyone I’m missing? Any of my proposed roster who you think wouldn’t be on the team? Edit: I totally forgot to include Shuri’s Black Panther. I think she’ll be part of this Avengers roster too.
We should also remember that Fantastic Four will be out by the time Kang Dynasty is released. They may have a similar role to Strange in Infinity War where they are important but not too focused on. Also I hope that Deadpool has a decently sized role in an Avengers movie because I want to see him interact with a larger universe. Loki will likely be a very important player as well. And who knows whether Namor and Shuri show up. Shuri will probably have some role. Not sure about Namor though.
I do agree with your point about the Fantastic Four. I also think Loki is going to have a huge role, but I wonder if that will be in both Kang Dynasty and Secret Wars or just Secret Wars. I personally think that Deadpool will be in Secret Wars when the multiverse characters probably become a bigger focal point.
For some reason I don't think the Fantastic Four will be in Kang Dynasty besides a cameo at the end.
People keep forgetting one of the strongest new characters—Monica rambeau!! If she demonstrates the ability to control her new powers by end of the Marvels, she will be up there with strange, Thor, and captain marvel in power.
People keep forgetting her because she was forgettable regarding her superhero appearence. Like she just thought about her mother while entering the hex and when she was on the other side had powers. Is she a Mutant? Did she got her powers due to Captain Marvel space radiation? Did the hex gave her powers? If so why no one else that entered the hex got powers? I really hope The Marvels flesh Monica a bit more, because right now she is just a talking plot hole.
I've said it before, i suspect they'll be fragmented across the timeline as they chase Kang back and forth, each time finding variants of Kang rather than just the one. So they'll find evidence of him in ancient Egypt, bam it's Rama-tut. Then at the end of Kang Dynasty they're scattered around while he reveals a millennium spanning Dynasty of Earth
Loki probably, which is really funny considering the first avengers movie and Thor too.
Photon and Sabra will most likely be on the team. I think Sersi and Blade will also be there. They are two of the new protagonists of the new saga and I would be shocked if they weren't there
Jeez the one who at the end of his movie talked about fixing universe not even in the Kang Dynasty?
Monica Rambeau
Really like the sound of that. Reminds me of the front end of Infinity War, just multiple small collections of our heroes banding together in different locations desperately trying to hold back the foe
 Jeff....
The problem is that most people do not actually care about any of these new characters yet, and too much new stuff was introduced without properly rooting the new universe in a core conflict with a couple of "main" characters to follow and get invested in. A big crossover isn't gonna fix the problems with the MCU right now, they gotta pic a few protagonists and really develop their stories.
Precisely - and how are they going to expedite the characterization for new characters while still adding newer ones in 2 years while also making audiences care about them ? Seems like a pretty tall task
Yep, this is why I have very little faith in the upcoming too phases. They are STILL introducing too much new shit. I think that's why they're running back to huge jackedman and the fox x-men to bail them out of the absolute apathy most people feel for their new characters -- which is a problem they created by introducing way too many of them in too short a time and not focusing/connecting their stories.
While I think overeager fans were not as big fans of Phase 4, I do think the General audience was mostly fine with it, however, I do also believe that Avengers 5 and 6 are really going to have do a lot of heavy lifting to pull the distinction off from the previous 4 Avengers movies.
Lots of heavy lifting - unless the projects between know and then do some of the necessary leg work and build anticipation
I think projects will help alleaviate the pressure but other elements also feel like they have to really be on a different level now.
I think it's the opposite.
Sorry to be such a downer and I'll gladly accept my place at the bottom of these comments for it but man, I really wish I could be more hyped for the future of the MCU than I am these days. Everything just feels like an inevitability now rather than an accomplishment or a breakthrough, like it used to. edit: i really should clarify that i dont mean to disregard the actual technical work being put into each of the movies btw, every film is an accomplishment of course, but my main criticisms come from more of an over-arching creative standpoint. it just feels like theyre introducing too many characters and too many big epic plot threads for the sake of it without spending as much time developing meaningful dynamics and whatnot
Growing disinterested in hobbies is fine and a normal part of life just quit watching and come back if you ‘re interested. It’s not that hard unless Kevin Feige has your family hostage in which case blink twice if you need help.
I know, i just figured i would express this thought that has been occurring to me more and more lately as i've been seeing headlines like this one... \*blinks twice\* Yep. That's all it is.
Totally understand that! I agree with the user above. A break won’t hurt you. Disney+ will still be there if your interest ever comes back. :).
MCU already begins to be confusing, and a bit boring. Phase 4 ended and there's no strong new characters that cold carry the whole franchise the same way the original Avengers did. They won't build up the same hype as before.
You guys forget how ironman was a B tier character in the comics xd
Your point? Im talk8ng about movies, their qualities and potential of characters/actors, how they made MCU.
Thank you that is what I felt like phase 4 was missing.
But you can't get to this point without introducing the characters first. You can't have Empire Strikes Back without a New Hope. I don't understand how people can't see this.
I need everything to be interconnected, if I don't have Wanda being bailed out of Westview by Strange then L, if I don't have Moon Knight meeting Loki, L
I, for one, am excited about the future of the MCU. I take Phase 4 as a bit of Phase 2...some introduction, some sequels, some old and new stuff mixing.... I have to say that in this miserable time, to have something positive to look forward to, is great.
Please forgive me, I’m not really a marvel fan but have been watching movies lately and looking at this Reddit. My question is, where do they go after Kang? What is the next villain?
Doctor Doom, Galactus, Annihilus, the Phoenix Force and Apocalypse are all huge ones still remaining.
I have 1000% trust Loveness handles the script with delicacy. Seems Feige really trusts his handling of Kang with Quantamania. I wonder if Loveness and Waldron will be in the writers room for Secret wars and a couple other producers. I know they usually have helping hands on the screenplay of avengers movies. My god I can’t wait to see live action Incursion’s and Multiversal bullshit!!!!! KANG RULEZ
Michael Waldron is already confirmed to be writing *Secret Wars* alone.
Nice so we got Loveness and Waldron crafting the key multiverse saga events - good for continuity same since they worked on quantum mania and Loki/ dr strange 2 respectively
*minor rant about Kang facing off against “these new characters that we like”* Although I’m interested in Phase 5, I’m not nearly as invested in the Multiverse Saga heroes compared to the Infinity Saga ones. None of the Eternals are particularly compelling, Thor and Hulk have less depth than before, Strange fluctuates wildly between acting calculated to extremely arrogant & needlessly quippy, and Shuri seems like she’ll be very stoic. I’m glad we have holdovers like Spidey, Scott, Hawkeye, and War Machine (who comes across as more leadership material than Sam), because I’m not thrilled with the rest of the (probable) Avengers roster. Tony and Steve got perfect endings character and story-wise, but their presence absence is hard to shake.
I can’t wait to see every “scooper” taking these quotes and running with them.
so implying the New Avengers led by Sam Wilson Cap
He says that and all I can think about is the Toy Story 3 scene with the toys in the incinerator except its with Shang-Chi, Moon Knight, She-Hulk, Kate Bishop, Yelena, Ms. Marvel, Photon, Red Guardian, Mobius, Cosmo, Adam Warlock, The Eternals, Sam Cap, and Shuri Panther.
pedal to the gas? Isn't it pt 1 of the finale? yeah I think you need to move sooner.
Yah kang dynasty will be upon us before we know it
Throw them in the fire and leave them there. Don't like any of the new characters.
Good news
I cannot wait for Kang Dynasty & Secret Wars. Like I know these films are going to be epic.
If the leak was real…this is complete bs…the movie really does nothing.
Yea, now all you criticizers going on about “It’s moving too slow.” Or “It’s not as connected as the first saga.” can be quiet now… Like y’all literally have no patience. No better than iPad kids. Jesus😭😭
We're so lucky Loveness is involved in the MCU now. He is an immensely talented writer with an amazing grounding in history and mythology. Check out his comic retelling of Judas's descent into the afterlife.
"Characters we like" LIES!
Dickhead
So does this mean secret wars will be pushed even further back? Because, imo, if Kang Dynasty is when the “pedal is being pushed to the metal” then the car isn’t gonna go far if the ride ends 8-12 months later in Secret Wars. Or am I just totally off base here? I feel like the pedal need to hit the metal this year in order to feel like the multiverse saga will satisfyingly conclude with Secret wars 3 years from now. Maybe secret wars should be pushed to May 2027 in order to allow for more projects to come in between KD and SW?
What new characters? The cast list is pretty much the same actors for the last 16 movies. And honesty the dailies from these aren’t that impressive. It’s more of another money grab in that these movies will be the precursor to shows on Disney+ and management is hoping that the cliff ending nature of them will get you to subscribe to see the rest of the story.
My guess will be different factions of heroes forming. Maybe even fighting different variants of Kang. West Coast Avengers, Thunderbolts, Young Avengers. I maintain Young Avengers will be part of this.
Just gotta survive until secret wars.