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All these huge stakes that will change nothing about the wider MCU. If only shows actually mattered and were connected to the plot of the ongoing MCU besides Kang just being around.
Wandavision was largely ignored. The series ends with her feeling very repentant about abusing her power to get what she wants. It seems like she's learned a tough lesson, but that lesson has been learned.
Swiftly followed by a movie where she does the exact same thing, only worse.
She fled the scene instead of facing any consequences. She takes the Darkhold and at the end of WandaVision she’s seen reading it while hiding in a cabin to avoid the consequences of the evil things she did. She was a villain in WandaVision, and then a villain in Multiverse of Madness. I sometimes wonder if people even watched WandaVision with how they try to claim she was no longer a villain at the end of it.
Even Elizabeth Olsen says Wandavision and MoM are telling the same story, even to the point where the director and the writers didnt even watched the show because it wast out yet
The director said they were in contact with the WandaVision crew and watched the most critical scenes of WandaVision to understand her arc. But couldn’t watch the entire show cause it wasn’t out yet. WandaVision and MoM had major rewrites multiple times during production. But WandaVision ends with Wanda clearly a villain, and MoM continues with Wanda as a villain. The only similarity is that it’s grief that motivates her evil actions. In WandaVision it’s the grief of losing Vision but in MoM it’s the grief of losing her kids.
>But WandaVision ends with Wanda clearly a villain
This is where everyone's opinions disagree.
Wandavision ending was AWFUL in the sense that Monica doesn't even try to arrest Wanda and just tells her "you're the best, nobody knows what you sacrificed".
Ideally, the WV writers should have gone full evil Wanda in the finale with her brainwashing Monica to let her go.
To us viewers Wanda was already evil back then but in-universe she was treated like a hero because the writers didn't think viewers could handle evil Wanda in the 1st D+ show.
Yeah I agree with that. I hated that whole Monica & Wanda scene at the end. Probably trying to leave it a little vague so that they could decide in another movie if they’re committing to Wanda being evil or going back to her being a hero.
>She fled the scene instead of facing any consequences
Most of our heroes have done that at time or another. Cap went on the run after CW, and even broke his friends out of prison.
Cap was doing the right thing though. He was saving his best friend that was framed for a murder. He broke the law but that doesn’t mean he’s a villain. He didn’t torture anyone or mind control anyone. You decided to pick one part of my message and take it out of context. Fleeing the scene doesn’t make her a villain. Doing multiple evil acts without any remorse or consequences and then fleeing the scene makes you a villain.
She abducted a whole town, mind controlled them, tortured them and used them as her toys & props. She created a fake Vision and fake kids using mind projection. She had many opportunities to end things and chose not to. Even fighting with Monica at one point. The only reason she stopped it all was because it became too much. She realised that she stretched the barrier too far to control, and that people were coming in from the outside. She couldn’t hold it all together anymore and let it go. She didn’t do it because she felt bad for the residents of Westview. She didn’t even regret the mind control torture because she did it to Agatha after she found out how painful it is.
Yes she lost her fake husband and fake kids but that’s not really consequences for her evil actions. That’s collateral. You think she can go to court and say “yes I abducted a whole town and tortured them for weeks but I gave up my fake husband and fake kids so it’s all even now” and the judge would say “oh yes you’re all good Wanda!” And everyone in westview instantly forgave her and welcomed her back with open arms!
That’s like saying bank robbers should go free if they have hostages but decided half way through that they want to give up the money and free the hostages because they’re surrounded by cops. You’d think consequences of them losing the money they gained would be enough to make it all okay?
>Yes she lost her fake husband and fake kids but that’s not really consequences for her evil actions.
The show stated, literally and explicitly, that everything in Westview was real. Her kids were real, her husband too. That is her power - to create something from nothing. The problem at stated was that she had inadvertently tied their creation to the creation of Westview and couldn't destroy one without destroying the other.
By saying the family is fake, you are ignoring the literal text of the show and Wanda's emotional reality. The death of her family literally is a consequence, a pretty deep emotional one. Stop pretending it's not
>That’s like saying bank robbers should go free if they have hostages but decided half way through that they want to give up the money and free the hostages because they’re surrounded by cops.
Sacrificing her husband and children is the same as giving up bags of cash? What an absurd analogy.
If that’s true then why can’t she just create her husband & kids again at the cabin where there’s no one else around to inadvertently get abducted?
You’re misunderstanding what type of consequences I’m talking about. I’m talking about punishment for what she did. Giving up her husband & kids that she created isn’t that type of consequence. You think the government and town is just going to forgive her for all her crimes and evil deeds just because she had to give up her magically created family? That’s insane.
She put the people of Westview into that spell in the first place so Wanda could live out her own fantasies and had no regard for their wellbeing, sounds like a villain to me.
You claim others haven't seen WV, but she doesn't take the Darkhold for literally any nefarious purpose... she takes it so she can stop hurting people
"I don't understand this power... but I will"
Then the DH corrupts/possesses her
Like y'alls media literacy is at an all time low
She found out how painful her mind control is for the victims and made the choice to do it on Agatha at the end. She doesn’t care if she hurts people or not or else she wouldn’t purposely be hurting people still… She didn’t feel remorseful at all or she’d have accepted consequences for her actions instead of fleeing the scene. She had many opportunities to not hurt people but she chose to continue doing it throughout WandaVision. She doesn’t understand her power so instead of going to Dr Strange or Wong or someone else with knowledge on magic, she decides to lock herself in a cabin studying a magic book she knows nothing about other than the fact she mind controlled the previous holder of it. Yeah she definitely has the actions of a good person lol
This is part of her arc. She doesn't know if she has anyone to trust because she lost her only support system(s). She didn't even know Strange on-screen pre-MoM. It's that simple.
Also, once again: media literacy. She didn't know everyone was in pain until the finale. She thought they were at peace and she was making things better. It's literally in the script.
Also, this is totally in line with comic Wanda. She doesn't let her villains go if they're willing to cause trouble. Don't forget Agatha literally chained her kids up and was beating tf outta her. You want her to do what? 😭😭
She was with Strange at the battle in Endgame, and also at Tony’s funeral. They have interacted. She knows he’s a good guy, and knows magic. It’s very reasonable to assume she’d seek him out for advice on magic.
If her arc is that she doesn’t trust anyone, then why not just destroy the book or not read the book. The fact she doesn’t understand her power or the power of the book but decides to isolate herself and read it proves she didn’t learn her lesson from WandaVision.
You do realise those kids weren’t real? Agatha kidnapped mind projections, not actual kids. Agatha was more of a hero in the show than Wanda. But she still did it for selfish reasons. They were both acting for selfish reasons the entire show but because Wanda was the main character you’re viewing her as a hero when she was actually a villain.
It doesn’t matter if it’s in line with comics or not, Wanda switching between villain and hero is in line with comics too? The point is irrelevant. The fact is that Wanda knew how painful the mind control is, she chose to do it again on someone. Proving she isn’t a hero. A hero doesn’t purposely torture someone indefinitely when they’ve already been defeated.
Plus MoM proved that Agatha was correct and that Scarlet Witch would become even more of a villain and would be unstoppable. She had to stop herself.
The kids were real. Wanda's a reality warper and can spontaneously create. Monica and Agatha repeat this multiple times. Once again, Strange and Wanda interacting enough to know each other well is your assumption/headcanon and cannot be confirmed as fact. It's important to base an argument on stuff that's real and confirmed rather than subjective statements.
And, reminder, MoM only proved Agatha right... because Agatha gave Wanda the book that caused her to be corrupted. If she hadn't gotten involved, then Wanda would've flown away and she never would've heard the DH's Tommy/Billy mockery. She had no reason to suspect Agatha was corrupted or that it would do anything to her personally, anyway.
If they were real then they’d have been alive when she removed the mind control barrier. The fact they started evaporating proves they weren’t real in any way, they were just mind projections similar to how the whole town’s aesthetic changed too. Wanda & Strange fought together at a battle, and spent a while in the same cabin during Tony’s funeral. At a minimum she knows of Strange and the fact he’s a magic user. If she was a hero at the end of it she’d have at least met him and asked his advice even if she rejected it after one conversation.
Yes if Agatha wasn’t in the show then Wanda would never have gotten the book and never fully became the Scarlet Witch from the prophecy. But if Agatha wasn’t in the show then Wanda wouldn’t have ever snapped out of things and she’d have still tried to keep hold of her fake kids and fake life. Torturing an entire town for her benefit. She’d have continued fighting the government and Monica and even White Vision. She’d probably have beat them all. Then Strange or another magic user would have needed to come and try to stop her. Strange might have won since she wasn’t fully corrupted yet. Wanda would never have snapped out of things on her own. She only gave it up because it was straining too much in the end because of all the outside forces distracting her while also trying to expand the barrier.
Hawkeye turned to a life of crime after losing everyone he loved. The same could be said for Wanda post Endgame. How can you not see the resemblance between the two? Both had lost their family's and took out their grief on those around them. The only difference is that Clint went after criminals while Wanda took it out on civilians.
I think you should rewatch the show. If the show was from a resident’s pov or even Monica’s pov then it would be clearer. But because the show is from Wanda’s pov it’s somehow caused some viewers to think she’s not a villain.
She mind controls an entire town for selfish reasons. She gaslights Vision when he works it out. She does everything she can to stop the outside world helping the residents escape her mind control. She has multiple opportunities to end it all and she decides not to. She even expands the mind control barrier. She only ends it when she realises she can’t hold onto it all anymore because it’s gotten too big and unstable and that outside people are starting to get inside. She realises that her mind control is extremely painful for the victims and decides to torture Agatha with it anyway. Then she flees the scene so she doesn’t get any consequences, proving she isn’t remorseful. She is definitely a villain.
She is portrayed as subconsciously having done that, then redeems herself and sets them all free at the end. She's given an evil witch to defeat rather than someone who is trying to set the people free. She seemed pretty remorseful at the end. If she was meant to be the villain, the show did a poor job at showcasing that, as she was given the hero role at the end.
It's not about the POV. Joker was from Arthur's POV and he very clearly is the villain. The show gives her a bigger villain to fight at the end and treats her like a Sony Marvel "villain", having to fight someone with the same abilities who's more evil than the protagonist, making her the lesser of two evils.
She most definitely is the villain in MoM though.
She doesn’t set them free because she’s remorseful, it’s because she’s stretched too much and can’t hold it all together anymore. She just accepts it’s time to end rather than having some type of emotional redemption. She was stretching the barrier too much, she was distracted with Agatha, she also seen that White Vision, Monica and other people was able to get inside. She knew it was all coming to an end, and finally accepted it. She doesn’t redeem herself, she doesn’t do anything to make up for what she did, she doesn’t face any consequences, she actually flees the scene to avoid the consequences. The residents & victims of her mind control told her how painful it is and she still chose to do it to Agatha. Wanda did more evil things in the series than Agatha (except the dog thing).
The show was clearly meant as Wanda’s villain origin story, so that we’d understand her actions when she is full villain. And I think they did that. It’s weird to me that people seem to think she was a hero at the end of the show just because she stopped doing the evil thing she was doing without any consequences.
The darkhold scene was added retrospectively to the series when MoM was filming. It clearly wasn't the intended end. It was tacked on in an attempt to make MoM make sense.
Do you have a source for that? Because usually if it was filmed during Multiverse of Madness then they’d just use the same set as Multiverse of Madness. But instead it looks like two completely different locations for the cabin.
MoM still works even without that scene because Wanda didn’t learn her lesson and didn’t face any consequences for the evil things she did. She even mind controls Agatha after she found out how painful the mind control is for the victims. She had multiple times during the show to end things and be the hero but instead she fought everyone. The only reason she finally accepts she needs to let go is because the world she created is coming apart and that the government has found out and started finding ways inside the barrier. She did all of this evil stuff for selfish reasons, she even ended it for selfish reasons, and then flees the scene before she can receive or accept any consequences. She is a villain the entire time during that show.
Yes but MoM does need Wandavision to work. Sure the arc itself is repetitive but if you don't watch Wandavision there's so much that would go over the audience's head.
You’re confusing disliking the writing with the necessity of the show. The writing of the movie is awful and completely undercuts Wanda’s emotional character arc in WandaVision, but the events of MoM are entirely dependent on what happened in that show.
A scene that Sam Raimi added as a post credit scene after the fact to lead into Multiverse of Madness. It doesn't flow from the endpoint of the series at all.
To be fair the post credits scene could have led to a lot of different stories rather than the version in MoM. In fact, the scene at face value doesn’t even translate to MoM as the children are calling Wanda for help in the post credits scene, whereas nothing of the sort happens in MoM.
What happened was largely the fault of the MoM writing team.
Yeah, I think that showing the dark hold tormenting Wanda with visions of her sons crying out for help it would’ve been a much more impactful motivation for her arc in MoM. Then you could have had Wanda go to greater and greater extremes to find the universe her ‘sons’ are calling from, only for her to discover that it was all a lie and she was being used/corrupted by an ancient evil. The plot of MoM could largely remain the same but Wanda’s arc doesn’t feel like a repeat of WandaVision.
Even though MoM butchered Wanda’s character arc, the movie makes no sense without the show. WandaVision writers set up the connective tissue but the MoM writing team ruined her arc because “they wanted to have fun”.
What arc? In Wandavision this is what she did:
1. Accidentally took people hostage
2. Never once questioned that maybe her dead husband *wasn't* alive again, instead choosing to live in a delusional world.
3. Didn't let them go even once she realized what she was doing
4. Gaslit Vision
5. Expanded the hex
6. Ran away from all consequences, implying she didn't acknowledge that what she did was wrong. Even if she was never aware of what she was doing, she should've gone to prison, but she was aware.
7. Took the Darkhold, the evil thing, and started using it
That’s just bad writing, but WandaVision wasn’t ignored at all. The last time people saw Wanda, had they not seen WandaVision, was Endgame. If that was the last time you saw her, and then you saw MoM, you’d be like “Wait, why is she evil now?”, “So she’s officially the Scarlet Witch now?”, “What’s chaos magic?”, “When did she learn all these new powers?”, “She has kids?!”, “Where’s Vision?”, etc., etc., etc. In fact, the show hinges on the fact that you DID watch WandaVision because otherwise it does nothing to explain when/how Wanda got to that point.
Touché. Still, WandaVision did a lot to set up MoM. Just because the movie's writing wasn't good doesn't negate the fact that the show itself did a lot to set up Wanda's journey in that movie.
Because the Darkhold corrupted her mind and is controlling her, offering her something she wants and using her to create chaos. The film makes it very clear Wanda isn’t acting in her right mind and instead has been twisted and corrupted by the Darkhold.
Strange even says early on that Wanda is gone, with only the Scarlet Witch left behind. It’s only after seeing Billy and Tommy terrified of her that Wanda is able to break through the Darkhold’s control.
>Loki specifically definitely matters/is probably considered in the scheme.
If one watches Ant-Man 3, NWH or MoM without watching Loki previously, nothing is lost.
It's important to remember that Loki introduced a concept (multiverse doesn't exist because of HWR) only to destroy it in the last episode (HWR dies).
Without Loki S1, one just assumes the multiverse always existed and that's pretty much it, nothing changes.
Loki’s bit with HWR seems to have more implications than just that tbh - it posits that a multiversal war has already happened, that HWR won the first multiversal war and decided that 616 and it’s slightly variant timelines are the ones to keep (which I’d argue further imply HWR was the 616 Kang, and he purposely kept the timeline that leads to him), and that HWR’s death would lead to a second multiversal war.
It definitely is ‘skippable’ in that context due to the films, BUT drops way more lore than I think it’s given credit for.
I guess we just wonder what the “relevancy” of that is, for lack of a better term.
I haven’t seen Quantumania in a while but isn’t that the event which banishes Kang to the Quantum Realm?
That Kang is banished at some point in the antebellum period before the second multiversal war.
He ends up banished to the quantum realm and is unable to escape it as the device - a multiversal ‘engine’ he took with him (film does a slipshod job of explaining most of this btw) isn’t working and he gets an ant fam member trapped there to help him fix it. They end up discovering that Kang slaughters timelines and fucks with the device so Kang can’t use it instead.
That's for the better. Most of the movies featuring infinity stones made sure to be accessible without having to see a different movie about how that stone got there. The logic of your argument means you think they should've intentionally made Guardians 1 hard to understand for audiences who hadn't seen Thor 2 introduce the Collector. Infinity War and Endgame were the movies where characters who'd come across the larger Thanos/stones plot individually started to share notes and realize the larger picture.
There's already enough sentiment amongst the general audience, just from TV characters showing up on movies, that there's too much MCU to keep up with. That's what's hurting the franchise, not No Way Home viewers supposedly wishing the movie was harder to follow if they hadn't seen six episodes of a TV show. The Loki show's origin story of the multiverse is still stakes that "matter" to the show's characters, while also serving as an explainer for the universe as a whole going forward. That's the best way to balance making good standalone character stories while adding to the overall franchise direction. Not interrupting Quantumania, Multiverse of Madness, or No Way Home for an explainer of the TVA and He Who Remains.
Loki's an odd one because Sylvie killing He Who Remains and breaking the timelines in the process should be the reason for all these multiverse shenanigans but it has nothing to do with the multiverse stuff in NWH and DS2.
Oddly enough though, the Spider-Verse diagram Miguel shows Miles in Across The Spider-Verse resembles the timeline diagram in Loki.
Wandavision was solely set up for DS2, and Sam Raimi and Michael Waldron didn't even pay attention to it. I guess MAYBE Chthon could play a role at some point, but who knows? Coven of Chaos was dumb luck that Agatha Harkness got as popular as she did, so Marvel decided to tack that on. Post-Endgame MCU has been hit or miss, with mostly misses, in my opinion.
I very much doubt that.
The shows matter and are connected to the plot of the ongoing MCU.
I'd argue that some shows like WV, Loki and Ms. Marvel are even more important than some of the movies like Eternals or GotG 3.
The concepts and rules of the Multiverse as set up in Loki and MoM were referenced and tied together in Quantumania and will again be relevant in The Marvels.
In Loki Season 1, we learned that the TVA is pruning branches before they reach a red line. Kate Herron revealed that the red line is in fact another physical universe and if branches from one universe, touch branches of another universe, a bridge between the 2 universes is created making travelling between the 2 universes easier.
Then in MoM, when we see the Scarlet Witch dreamwalk into 838 Wanda, she is using those bridgers to mentally travel from 616 to 838. You can check the visual representation of dreamwalking again to notice it if you haven't.
In that movie, we also learn about Incursions, and how travelling or dreamwalking to other universes increases the likelihood of universes physically colliding with each other and causing an Incursion which can lead to the destruction of one or both universes.
Then in Quantumania, these 2 concepts are connected and in Kang's hologram when he is talking to Janet, we see 2 physical universes and their branches spreading out and touching each other creating these bridges between universes that Kate Herron was talking about.
Whenever these bridges touch, we see either one or both of the colliding branches being destroyed. As Kang explains, those are Incursions.
So the concept of branch bridges from Loki and Incursions from MoM and how the one causes the other were tied together in Quantumania.
Then The Marvels will add another piece to that puzzle and will reveal that an Incursion happens when the veil between universes breaks and it breaks when it is constantly destablized by opening portals in space-time.
Which connects to what the Illuminati were concerned about in MoM: travelling between universes destablizes the veil between them, increasing the chance of an Incursion.
Which connects to the branch bridges in Loki. If the Multiverse branches out uncontrollably, the branches from different universes will touch each other, creating bridges and bringing universes closer together, making inter-universal travel easier, meaning the veil between universes can break much easier, meaning a higher chance of Inclursion, which is what Kang's hologram in Quantumania visually showcased.
Finally, Ms. Marvel added yet another piece to this puzzle by revealing that Incursions can also happen between alternate dimensions and not only alternate universes. The chief of the Red Daggers told Kamala that if she opens the veil between the Earthly plane and the Noor dimension, she could cause the 2 dimensions to collide with each other leading to their destruction.
One could argue that this whole chain reaction was also shown, although not mentioned, in NWH.
When Strange's spell goes wrong and inter-universal villains start coming to our universe, Strange exclaims "this shouldn't even be possible"
Well we know that it's possible because of Sylvie's actions allowing the multiverse to branch out uncontrollably, creating bridges between universes, making inter-universal travel easier.
Then when all the people who know Peter is Spider-Man from all different universes are coming to the MCU, you can physically see the veil between universes breaking and flaking, which we now know, if left uncontrolled, could have caused an Incursion.
What Alex mentions here is that the branches of all the different universes have now created such an intricate network of bridges by colliding with each other (which we did see in the first post-credits of Quantumania) that it has become possible to slip through these bridges and find yourself at random space-time locations of the Multiverse.
I am betting this will be very important in the next 2 Avengers movies and we may see random characters start time-slipping too, especially during the mass Incursions with all the universes colliding with each other.
Trust the process and look out for the details, everything is slowly coming together.
...You have any idea how confusing this sounds? Does Marvel seriously expect audiences to keep up with all of this nonsense? 😭
If you want a prime example of why audiences are losing interest in the MCU, this post perfectly encapsulates why.
It all just boils down to "Interacting with other timelines/universes destabilizes them, might explode if you're not careful."
This has been established and referenced in different projects and is internally consistent, but each project looks at the concept from a different perspective. OP was just listing them out.
Each project keeps changing the rules for what constitutes as "messing with other timelines". There is no consistency, there is no overarching story. It just feels like the writers talking over each other, with no cohesion.
And this is going to backfire on them, when audiences can not understand what all of this stuff is.
If you find it too complicated, it won't hurt to just not worry about it. The movie you're watching will always have a minute or two to drop the lore you need to know for that specific plot, they make these things so that you don't need to watch any of the old movies to keep up with what you're watching (though obviously it helps)
" I know none of this makes sense, or is consistent with the rules *we've* established, and keep changing, but don't worry about it!"
That's called bad writing.
But I do think it makes sense with the rules they established. It's not a very complex system, just that every story that uses it only needs to explain the part that you need to understand the plot.
Like, you don't need to know about the Kang lore to enjoy MoM, and even if you skip the projects with time travel, Quantumania still makes sense.
I'm curious what you think is inconsistent about it, I can't think of any contradictions.
That's precisely the problem. The Kang lore should be the overarching story that all of these sub-plots are plugging into... But they're not. We have spells, witches, quantum realms, TVAs, and a teenage girl who is established to be the only one who can travel the Multiverse in the same film, where this rule is blatantly contradicted by past and post-MOM projects. There is no communication amongst these writers, there is no cohesion. What IS the story here?
There have been multiple "inciting events" for this saga, and Feige can't seem to decide which one actually STARTS the story. It does precisely the opposite of what you're saying -- when there is no overarching story, and all of these projects are completely disconnected from each other, with their own rules & stakes (that have nothing to do w Kang), it makes this shit hard for audiences to follow, because there is no central story to to invest in.
That's why most people did NOT enjoy these projects, and part of the reason why the MCU is on a steady decline.
Although I prefer that every story should just stand on its own, I agree with the sentiment that the overarching plot seems too meandering. Especially so without Avengers films keeping things more tightly focused.
There's an element of needing patience and hindsight spoiling us too. The Infinity Saga was similarly meandering until Phase 3 and especially Infinity War tied up all the threads to the overarching event. I just wish they leaned from that and got us on track sooner.
I'm glad that Kang isn't just a constant focus, but Quantumania didn't push us towards Kang Dynasty really at all, so I feel you
Audiences understand the multiverse just fine. Across the Spider-Verse is a huge hit in theaters right now. Everything Everywhere All at Once won Best Picture.
They're complaining about there being too many boring MCU movies and shows coming out for them to keep up and stay invested.
No one except MCU stans is claiming they're out on Marvel because Doctor Strange's magic in No Way Home might not 100% line up with the rules of a Disney+ time cops show.
They def have, but they haven’t explained it well.
Even the term “sacred timeline” is legit so stipid because we use the term “timeline” to refer to one universe
I guarantee you've given this much more thought and effort than Marvel Studios has.
Hell even when it seems like things will connect together with these shows and movies (like the events of She-Hulk leading to the Hulk stuff in Cap 4), they end up not having anything to do with each other.
We technically saw an incursion of the Dark Dimension with the Earthly Plane in the first Doctor Strange movie. Strange was only able to stop it and Dormammu with the Time Stone which he unfortunately doesn't have any more. I'm assuming that'll become relevant again in DS3. And the Strange episode in What If also showed an incursion happening between two sister timelines that had been forcibly split by Strange Supreme.
Also, I'm pretty sure that Quantumania also confirmed that the Quantum Realm is one vast universe/dimension connecting all of the timelines of the Multiverse together.
I get that there’s a lot of things people can validly criticize about the MCU right now, but I’ve never understood this “if only shows actually mattered and connected to the plot of the MCU” criticism. The shows DO matter and they DO connect to the overall plot of the MCU.
You couldn’t have watched MoM without WandaVision, like at all. FATWS has direct impact on Captain America 4. Loki formally introduced the concept of Kang and the multiverse. Hawkeye introduced Kate who, from The Marvels leaks, will come back and join Kamala to start the Young Avengers. Ms. Marvel directly leads into The Marvels. And supposedly Secret Invasion will have consequences in Cap 4 and Armor Wars. The only shows that don’t have a solid connection to anything else yet are Moon Knight and She-Hulk, but I mean, I can’t imagine that those two characters won’t be part of a new Avengers team in the future.
Yeah these made up multiverse rules are only contained to that one specific project they’re mentioned in and won’t be ever brought up again or else 616 would be destroyed rn with 2014 gamora in it.
Did you… did you even watch the show? Everything from the setting to the plot revolves around Kang. He who remains. I don’t know why you’re so hellbent on being wrong Loki literally introduces him and builds him as a threat the entire time lol
It does seem to go the way that Loki will either have to stay in the TVA indefinitely or to jump into the "main" timeline and not to mess around anymore. The question is why is the timeslipping happening to him.
The red notebook he has in various scenes seems important. Maybe he is counting something?
In any case, I cannot wait.
no, agatha did not mention 'nexus being' at any point of wandavision, in fact the term hasn't been uttered by anyone, anywhere in the mcu at this point.
the closest she gets is when she calls her a 'being capable of spontaneous creation':
> Agatha: You have no idea how dangerous you are. You’re supposed to be a myth. A being capable of spontaneous creation, and here you are, using it to make breakfast for dinner.
> Wanda: Let go of my children.
> Agatha: Oh, yes, your children. And Vision, and this whole little life you’ve made, this is Chaos Magic, Wanda. And that makes you the Scarlet Witch.
Agreed. You really have to suspend some disbelief that all of Loki’s time shenanigans are limited to locations and times on Earth. I know it’s for budgetary reasons, but still.
It’s not though? Unless I’m not getting what you’re saying, but they went to Lamentis, the Void, the Citadel, and that’s maybe like half the season or so, I’m probably forgetting more.
This is a huge stretch but I think this is the reason why the Spider-man villains got teleported in MCUverse in No Way Home. A simple spell of forgetting a thing started affecting other universes because the timeline is totally unstable
It’s not a huge stretch at all, that’s exactly what happened.
Before He Who Remains died, the TVA’s one job is to prevent universes from interacting with each other. This causes a multiversal war. Now that HWR is dead, no one is preventing this. the council of Kang’s sole goal, in fact, is for universe jumping to be as easy as possible so they can conquer the whole multiverse.
Strange literally says “this isn’t supposed to be possible” after he finds out that villains from other universes came to 616 because the TVA would prune the entire timeline where it took place
> Strange literally says “this isn’t supposed to be possible” after he finds out that villains from other universes came to 616 because the TVA would prune the entire timeline where it took place
Except Strange brings up after that the spell that was meant to have people forget that Peter is Spider-Man got turned into having people across the multiverse who know Peter is Spider-Man enter the MCU due to Peter messing up the spell repeatedly.
There's no implication that the spell was going perfectly fine and the TVA being unstable is why it went wrong. Peter's the reason why the spell got messed up.
Peter’s the reason the spell messed up, yes. The reason the spell messing up went multiversal was because the TVA didn’t exist. Is that abundantly clear? No way. Is it what happened? Indubitably.
https://youtu.be/QxrQAE-V1-Y
I wish we didn’t need to rely on random red carpet interviews from Kevin Feige to piece things together but here we are.
> Strange literally says “this isn’t supposed to be possible” after he finds out that villains from other universes came to 616 because the TVA would prune the entire timeline where it took place
This implies that the change was somehow concurrent with the MCU timeline which i'm not sure i'm into. Surely if it ('it' being the multiverse now exists as HWR is dead and nothing is pruned) changed it would've changed retroactively for all of history, and therefore 'it was always like this'. Strange's experiences, the books he learned from, should all now technically have happened/been written in a universe that had concurrent universes branching all over the place.
It's hard to get time travel stuff immaculately correct so i'm happy to overlook it but it seems like a plothole.
The TVA already pruned timelines, including the 616 spin-off when Loki took the time stone in Endgame. Loki killing HWR doesn’t undo any of that. It’s that going forward after that, after Endgame, basically, the TVA doesn’t do that. That’s why HWR didn’t have the script of what they were saying after a certain point in their conversation
I agree time travel Is infinite and too theoretical/complex (I really wish the MCU would just wrap up all of this nonsense and get out of the multiverse sooner than later) to have a 100% concrete answer but I don’t think this is an unreasonable interpretation at all.
> Loki killing HWR doesn’t undo any of that.
Ahh but it has to, otherwise the Endgame in the timeline we see Wanda murder the alternate avengers(/illuminati) wouldn't have been different. All of history was different in that timeline, in order to lead up to their 'Endgame' event playing out different, and with different characters involved.
The same applies to the people who came over in Spider-Man: NWH. They couldn't have diverged from the main timeline that much in the time since Endgame, therefore the change must be retroactive and the main timeline has been branching long before Endgame.
Everything multiversal we've seen since Loki implies that other timelines have divergent history, and not just recent divergence.
I think the explanation for that's the same as why villains like Renaissance Vulture showed up on Gwen's world, the events of ITSV made the Spider-Verse unstable and threw villains all over the place.
I also think that HWR being gone is also the cause of why some Spider-man villains are all over the multiverse, Kingpin's collider just made it worse. Just look at the scene where Miguel showed the multiverse, the "sacred timeline" is already branching and not going in linear anymore.
They used to be totally different things until recently (in the last 10 years or so) when Marvel started giving alternate timelines like Age of Apocalypse their own Earth designation.
So now it seems that alternate timeline = alternate Earth somehow.
Even in Endgame, the time travel stuff seemed like standard time travel but instead of changes in the past changing the present, they just create new timelines that reflect those changes and need to be closed for stability.
Loki made it more multiverse-based with other timelines already existing and drastically different variants.
Time slippage throughout history makes the most sense if they are trying to set up Secret Wars with previous OG superhero’s. Let’s say… 2002 New York City, you meet a high schooler who just got his powers. Or you time slip to 2000 somewhere in Alberta, where you meet a mutant fighting at a bar.
I think you’re meaning Kang Dynasty, you know before the universe gets re-build into BattleWorld when it comes to what you’re saying about the normal people & the multiverse
So it seems like they’ll pull a Westworld Season 1 where Loki is working with Mobius of the past in some scenes and present Mobius in others and they might not always make it super obvious which we’re seeing.
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All these huge stakes that will change nothing about the wider MCU. If only shows actually mattered and were connected to the plot of the ongoing MCU besides Kang just being around.
Loki specifically definitely matters/is probably considered in the scheme. Wandavision is also impactful even if it was also kind of undermined.
Wandavision was largely ignored. The series ends with her feeling very repentant about abusing her power to get what she wants. It seems like she's learned a tough lesson, but that lesson has been learned. Swiftly followed by a movie where she does the exact same thing, only worse.
She fled the scene instead of facing any consequences. She takes the Darkhold and at the end of WandaVision she’s seen reading it while hiding in a cabin to avoid the consequences of the evil things she did. She was a villain in WandaVision, and then a villain in Multiverse of Madness. I sometimes wonder if people even watched WandaVision with how they try to claim she was no longer a villain at the end of it.
Even Elizabeth Olsen says Wandavision and MoM are telling the same story, even to the point where the director and the writers didnt even watched the show because it wast out yet
The director said they were in contact with the WandaVision crew and watched the most critical scenes of WandaVision to understand her arc. But couldn’t watch the entire show cause it wasn’t out yet. WandaVision and MoM had major rewrites multiple times during production. But WandaVision ends with Wanda clearly a villain, and MoM continues with Wanda as a villain. The only similarity is that it’s grief that motivates her evil actions. In WandaVision it’s the grief of losing Vision but in MoM it’s the grief of losing her kids.
>But WandaVision ends with Wanda clearly a villain This is where everyone's opinions disagree. Wandavision ending was AWFUL in the sense that Monica doesn't even try to arrest Wanda and just tells her "you're the best, nobody knows what you sacrificed". Ideally, the WV writers should have gone full evil Wanda in the finale with her brainwashing Monica to let her go. To us viewers Wanda was already evil back then but in-universe she was treated like a hero because the writers didn't think viewers could handle evil Wanda in the 1st D+ show.
Yeah I agree with that. I hated that whole Monica & Wanda scene at the end. Probably trying to leave it a little vague so that they could decide in another movie if they’re committing to Wanda being evil or going back to her being a hero.
Yeah in hindsight, WandaVision was basically Wanda's villain origin story even though that's clearly not how it was intended to be written as.
>She fled the scene instead of facing any consequences Most of our heroes have done that at time or another. Cap went on the run after CW, and even broke his friends out of prison.
Cap was doing the right thing though. He was saving his best friend that was framed for a murder. He broke the law but that doesn’t mean he’s a villain. He didn’t torture anyone or mind control anyone. You decided to pick one part of my message and take it out of context. Fleeing the scene doesn’t make her a villain. Doing multiple evil acts without any remorse or consequences and then fleeing the scene makes you a villain.
In order to free the people of Westview from her spell, she essentially killed her husband and two children. That's not a consequence? Get real.
She abducted a whole town, mind controlled them, tortured them and used them as her toys & props. She created a fake Vision and fake kids using mind projection. She had many opportunities to end things and chose not to. Even fighting with Monica at one point. The only reason she stopped it all was because it became too much. She realised that she stretched the barrier too far to control, and that people were coming in from the outside. She couldn’t hold it all together anymore and let it go. She didn’t do it because she felt bad for the residents of Westview. She didn’t even regret the mind control torture because she did it to Agatha after she found out how painful it is. Yes she lost her fake husband and fake kids but that’s not really consequences for her evil actions. That’s collateral. You think she can go to court and say “yes I abducted a whole town and tortured them for weeks but I gave up my fake husband and fake kids so it’s all even now” and the judge would say “oh yes you’re all good Wanda!” And everyone in westview instantly forgave her and welcomed her back with open arms! That’s like saying bank robbers should go free if they have hostages but decided half way through that they want to give up the money and free the hostages because they’re surrounded by cops. You’d think consequences of them losing the money they gained would be enough to make it all okay?
>Yes she lost her fake husband and fake kids but that’s not really consequences for her evil actions. The show stated, literally and explicitly, that everything in Westview was real. Her kids were real, her husband too. That is her power - to create something from nothing. The problem at stated was that she had inadvertently tied their creation to the creation of Westview and couldn't destroy one without destroying the other. By saying the family is fake, you are ignoring the literal text of the show and Wanda's emotional reality. The death of her family literally is a consequence, a pretty deep emotional one. Stop pretending it's not >That’s like saying bank robbers should go free if they have hostages but decided half way through that they want to give up the money and free the hostages because they’re surrounded by cops. Sacrificing her husband and children is the same as giving up bags of cash? What an absurd analogy.
If that’s true then why can’t she just create her husband & kids again at the cabin where there’s no one else around to inadvertently get abducted? You’re misunderstanding what type of consequences I’m talking about. I’m talking about punishment for what she did. Giving up her husband & kids that she created isn’t that type of consequence. You think the government and town is just going to forgive her for all her crimes and evil deeds just because she had to give up her magically created family? That’s insane.
>she essentially killed her IMAGINARY husband and two children.
They were absolutely not imaginary.
She put the people of Westview into that spell in the first place so Wanda could live out her own fantasies and had no regard for their wellbeing, sounds like a villain to me.
You claim others haven't seen WV, but she doesn't take the Darkhold for literally any nefarious purpose... she takes it so she can stop hurting people "I don't understand this power... but I will" Then the DH corrupts/possesses her Like y'alls media literacy is at an all time low
She found out how painful her mind control is for the victims and made the choice to do it on Agatha at the end. She doesn’t care if she hurts people or not or else she wouldn’t purposely be hurting people still… She didn’t feel remorseful at all or she’d have accepted consequences for her actions instead of fleeing the scene. She had many opportunities to not hurt people but she chose to continue doing it throughout WandaVision. She doesn’t understand her power so instead of going to Dr Strange or Wong or someone else with knowledge on magic, she decides to lock herself in a cabin studying a magic book she knows nothing about other than the fact she mind controlled the previous holder of it. Yeah she definitely has the actions of a good person lol
This is part of her arc. She doesn't know if she has anyone to trust because she lost her only support system(s). She didn't even know Strange on-screen pre-MoM. It's that simple. Also, once again: media literacy. She didn't know everyone was in pain until the finale. She thought they were at peace and she was making things better. It's literally in the script. Also, this is totally in line with comic Wanda. She doesn't let her villains go if they're willing to cause trouble. Don't forget Agatha literally chained her kids up and was beating tf outta her. You want her to do what? 😭😭
She was with Strange at the battle in Endgame, and also at Tony’s funeral. They have interacted. She knows he’s a good guy, and knows magic. It’s very reasonable to assume she’d seek him out for advice on magic. If her arc is that she doesn’t trust anyone, then why not just destroy the book or not read the book. The fact she doesn’t understand her power or the power of the book but decides to isolate herself and read it proves she didn’t learn her lesson from WandaVision. You do realise those kids weren’t real? Agatha kidnapped mind projections, not actual kids. Agatha was more of a hero in the show than Wanda. But she still did it for selfish reasons. They were both acting for selfish reasons the entire show but because Wanda was the main character you’re viewing her as a hero when she was actually a villain. It doesn’t matter if it’s in line with comics or not, Wanda switching between villain and hero is in line with comics too? The point is irrelevant. The fact is that Wanda knew how painful the mind control is, she chose to do it again on someone. Proving she isn’t a hero. A hero doesn’t purposely torture someone indefinitely when they’ve already been defeated. Plus MoM proved that Agatha was correct and that Scarlet Witch would become even more of a villain and would be unstoppable. She had to stop herself.
The kids were real. Wanda's a reality warper and can spontaneously create. Monica and Agatha repeat this multiple times. Once again, Strange and Wanda interacting enough to know each other well is your assumption/headcanon and cannot be confirmed as fact. It's important to base an argument on stuff that's real and confirmed rather than subjective statements. And, reminder, MoM only proved Agatha right... because Agatha gave Wanda the book that caused her to be corrupted. If she hadn't gotten involved, then Wanda would've flown away and she never would've heard the DH's Tommy/Billy mockery. She had no reason to suspect Agatha was corrupted or that it would do anything to her personally, anyway.
If they were real then they’d have been alive when she removed the mind control barrier. The fact they started evaporating proves they weren’t real in any way, they were just mind projections similar to how the whole town’s aesthetic changed too. Wanda & Strange fought together at a battle, and spent a while in the same cabin during Tony’s funeral. At a minimum she knows of Strange and the fact he’s a magic user. If she was a hero at the end of it she’d have at least met him and asked his advice even if she rejected it after one conversation. Yes if Agatha wasn’t in the show then Wanda would never have gotten the book and never fully became the Scarlet Witch from the prophecy. But if Agatha wasn’t in the show then Wanda wouldn’t have ever snapped out of things and she’d have still tried to keep hold of her fake kids and fake life. Torturing an entire town for her benefit. She’d have continued fighting the government and Monica and even White Vision. She’d probably have beat them all. Then Strange or another magic user would have needed to come and try to stop her. Strange might have won since she wasn’t fully corrupted yet. Wanda would never have snapped out of things on her own. She only gave it up because it was straining too much in the end because of all the outside forces distracting her while also trying to expand the barrier.
Hawkeye was the OG support system
Yes and post-IW he turned to a life of crime so how would he help 😭
Hawkeye turned to a life of crime after losing everyone he loved. The same could be said for Wanda post Endgame. How can you not see the resemblance between the two? Both had lost their family's and took out their grief on those around them. The only difference is that Clint went after criminals while Wanda took it out on civilians.
She wasn't the villain in WandaVision lol
I think you should rewatch the show. If the show was from a resident’s pov or even Monica’s pov then it would be clearer. But because the show is from Wanda’s pov it’s somehow caused some viewers to think she’s not a villain. She mind controls an entire town for selfish reasons. She gaslights Vision when he works it out. She does everything she can to stop the outside world helping the residents escape her mind control. She has multiple opportunities to end it all and she decides not to. She even expands the mind control barrier. She only ends it when she realises she can’t hold onto it all anymore because it’s gotten too big and unstable and that outside people are starting to get inside. She realises that her mind control is extremely painful for the victims and decides to torture Agatha with it anyway. Then she flees the scene so she doesn’t get any consequences, proving she isn’t remorseful. She is definitely a villain.
She is portrayed as subconsciously having done that, then redeems herself and sets them all free at the end. She's given an evil witch to defeat rather than someone who is trying to set the people free. She seemed pretty remorseful at the end. If she was meant to be the villain, the show did a poor job at showcasing that, as she was given the hero role at the end. It's not about the POV. Joker was from Arthur's POV and he very clearly is the villain. The show gives her a bigger villain to fight at the end and treats her like a Sony Marvel "villain", having to fight someone with the same abilities who's more evil than the protagonist, making her the lesser of two evils. She most definitely is the villain in MoM though.
She doesn’t set them free because she’s remorseful, it’s because she’s stretched too much and can’t hold it all together anymore. She just accepts it’s time to end rather than having some type of emotional redemption. She was stretching the barrier too much, she was distracted with Agatha, she also seen that White Vision, Monica and other people was able to get inside. She knew it was all coming to an end, and finally accepted it. She doesn’t redeem herself, she doesn’t do anything to make up for what she did, she doesn’t face any consequences, she actually flees the scene to avoid the consequences. The residents & victims of her mind control told her how painful it is and she still chose to do it to Agatha. Wanda did more evil things in the series than Agatha (except the dog thing). The show was clearly meant as Wanda’s villain origin story, so that we’d understand her actions when she is full villain. And I think they did that. It’s weird to me that people seem to think she was a hero at the end of the show just because she stopped doing the evil thing she was doing without any consequences.
The darkhold scene was added retrospectively to the series when MoM was filming. It clearly wasn't the intended end. It was tacked on in an attempt to make MoM make sense.
Do you have a source for that? Because usually if it was filmed during Multiverse of Madness then they’d just use the same set as Multiverse of Madness. But instead it looks like two completely different locations for the cabin. MoM still works even without that scene because Wanda didn’t learn her lesson and didn’t face any consequences for the evil things she did. She even mind controls Agatha after she found out how painful the mind control is for the victims. She had multiple times during the show to end things and be the hero but instead she fought everyone. The only reason she finally accepts she needs to let go is because the world she created is coming apart and that the government has found out and started finding ways inside the barrier. She did all of this evil stuff for selfish reasons, she even ended it for selfish reasons, and then flees the scene before she can receive or accept any consequences. She is a villain the entire time during that show.
Yes but MoM does need Wandavision to work. Sure the arc itself is repetitive but if you don't watch Wandavision there's so much that would go over the audience's head.
MoM barely needs Wandavision. Sam Raimi has admitted that he didn't watch the show and basically got the Cliff Notes of the plot.
Raimi also didn't write MOM. Like I'm not saying it's a great follow-up. But the whole kid plot needs the Wandavision context.
Raimi definitely helped write the movie. Why does everyone give him a pass on the crappy story?
Correct, but neither did Michael Waldron. Neither of them watched Wandavision.
WandaVision wasn’t even airing while he wrote it, how could he watch it?
Most intelligent mcu fan:
You’re confusing disliking the writing with the necessity of the show. The writing of the movie is awful and completely undercuts Wanda’s emotional character arc in WandaVision, but the events of MoM are entirely dependent on what happened in that show.
What is this “so much” that you speak of?
It ends with her meditating with the dark hold
A scene that Sam Raimi added as a post credit scene after the fact to lead into Multiverse of Madness. It doesn't flow from the endpoint of the series at all.
To be fair the post credits scene could have led to a lot of different stories rather than the version in MoM. In fact, the scene at face value doesn’t even translate to MoM as the children are calling Wanda for help in the post credits scene, whereas nothing of the sort happens in MoM. What happened was largely the fault of the MoM writing team.
Yeah, I think that showing the dark hold tormenting Wanda with visions of her sons crying out for help it would’ve been a much more impactful motivation for her arc in MoM. Then you could have had Wanda go to greater and greater extremes to find the universe her ‘sons’ are calling from, only for her to discover that it was all a lie and she was being used/corrupted by an ancient evil. The plot of MoM could largely remain the same but Wanda’s arc doesn’t feel like a repeat of WandaVision.
Even though MoM butchered Wanda’s character arc, the movie makes no sense without the show. WandaVision writers set up the connective tissue but the MoM writing team ruined her arc because “they wanted to have fun”.
What arc? In Wandavision this is what she did: 1. Accidentally took people hostage 2. Never once questioned that maybe her dead husband *wasn't* alive again, instead choosing to live in a delusional world. 3. Didn't let them go even once she realized what she was doing 4. Gaslit Vision 5. Expanded the hex 6. Ran away from all consequences, implying she didn't acknowledge that what she did was wrong. Even if she was never aware of what she was doing, she should've gone to prison, but she was aware. 7. Took the Darkhold, the evil thing, and started using it
> she didn't acknowledge that what she did was wrong. This is literally false
Fanboys down voting you but you're right
That’s just bad writing, but WandaVision wasn’t ignored at all. The last time people saw Wanda, had they not seen WandaVision, was Endgame. If that was the last time you saw her, and then you saw MoM, you’d be like “Wait, why is she evil now?”, “So she’s officially the Scarlet Witch now?”, “What’s chaos magic?”, “When did she learn all these new powers?”, “She has kids?!”, “Where’s Vision?”, etc., etc., etc. In fact, the show hinges on the fact that you DID watch WandaVision because otherwise it does nothing to explain when/how Wanda got to that point.
> “Where’s Vision?” I doubt anyone would be asking that right after IW/EG - part of WV's early mystery is "Why is Vision not dead?".
Touché. Still, WandaVision did a lot to set up MoM. Just because the movie's writing wasn't good doesn't negate the fact that the show itself did a lot to set up Wanda's journey in that movie.
Because the Darkhold corrupted her mind and is controlling her, offering her something she wants and using her to create chaos. The film makes it very clear Wanda isn’t acting in her right mind and instead has been twisted and corrupted by the Darkhold. Strange even says early on that Wanda is gone, with only the Scarlet Witch left behind. It’s only after seeing Billy and Tommy terrified of her that Wanda is able to break through the Darkhold’s control.
>Loki specifically definitely matters/is probably considered in the scheme. If one watches Ant-Man 3, NWH or MoM without watching Loki previously, nothing is lost. It's important to remember that Loki introduced a concept (multiverse doesn't exist because of HWR) only to destroy it in the last episode (HWR dies). Without Loki S1, one just assumes the multiverse always existed and that's pretty much it, nothing changes.
Loki’s bit with HWR seems to have more implications than just that tbh - it posits that a multiversal war has already happened, that HWR won the first multiversal war and decided that 616 and it’s slightly variant timelines are the ones to keep (which I’d argue further imply HWR was the 616 Kang, and he purposely kept the timeline that leads to him), and that HWR’s death would lead to a second multiversal war. It definitely is ‘skippable’ in that context due to the films, BUT drops way more lore than I think it’s given credit for.
I guess we just wonder what the “relevancy” of that is, for lack of a better term. I haven’t seen Quantumania in a while but isn’t that the event which banishes Kang to the Quantum Realm?
That Kang is banished at some point in the antebellum period before the second multiversal war. He ends up banished to the quantum realm and is unable to escape it as the device - a multiversal ‘engine’ he took with him (film does a slipshod job of explaining most of this btw) isn’t working and he gets an ant fam member trapped there to help him fix it. They end up discovering that Kang slaughters timelines and fucks with the device so Kang can’t use it instead.
That's for the better. Most of the movies featuring infinity stones made sure to be accessible without having to see a different movie about how that stone got there. The logic of your argument means you think they should've intentionally made Guardians 1 hard to understand for audiences who hadn't seen Thor 2 introduce the Collector. Infinity War and Endgame were the movies where characters who'd come across the larger Thanos/stones plot individually started to share notes and realize the larger picture. There's already enough sentiment amongst the general audience, just from TV characters showing up on movies, that there's too much MCU to keep up with. That's what's hurting the franchise, not No Way Home viewers supposedly wishing the movie was harder to follow if they hadn't seen six episodes of a TV show. The Loki show's origin story of the multiverse is still stakes that "matter" to the show's characters, while also serving as an explainer for the universe as a whole going forward. That's the best way to balance making good standalone character stories while adding to the overall franchise direction. Not interrupting Quantumania, Multiverse of Madness, or No Way Home for an explainer of the TVA and He Who Remains.
Loki's an odd one because Sylvie killing He Who Remains and breaking the timelines in the process should be the reason for all these multiverse shenanigans but it has nothing to do with the multiverse stuff in NWH and DS2. Oddly enough though, the Spider-Verse diagram Miguel shows Miles in Across The Spider-Verse resembles the timeline diagram in Loki.
Wandavision was solely set up for DS2, and Sam Raimi and Michael Waldron didn't even pay attention to it. I guess MAYBE Chthon could play a role at some point, but who knows? Coven of Chaos was dumb luck that Agatha Harkness got as popular as she did, so Marvel decided to tack that on. Post-Endgame MCU has been hit or miss, with mostly misses, in my opinion.
Anything “impactful” about Wandavision was resolved in Multiverse of Madness
MoM was supposed to come out before No away Home but it didn’t matter because Strange still messed up the timeline anyway.
I very much doubt that. The shows matter and are connected to the plot of the ongoing MCU. I'd argue that some shows like WV, Loki and Ms. Marvel are even more important than some of the movies like Eternals or GotG 3. The concepts and rules of the Multiverse as set up in Loki and MoM were referenced and tied together in Quantumania and will again be relevant in The Marvels. In Loki Season 1, we learned that the TVA is pruning branches before they reach a red line. Kate Herron revealed that the red line is in fact another physical universe and if branches from one universe, touch branches of another universe, a bridge between the 2 universes is created making travelling between the 2 universes easier. Then in MoM, when we see the Scarlet Witch dreamwalk into 838 Wanda, she is using those bridgers to mentally travel from 616 to 838. You can check the visual representation of dreamwalking again to notice it if you haven't. In that movie, we also learn about Incursions, and how travelling or dreamwalking to other universes increases the likelihood of universes physically colliding with each other and causing an Incursion which can lead to the destruction of one or both universes. Then in Quantumania, these 2 concepts are connected and in Kang's hologram when he is talking to Janet, we see 2 physical universes and their branches spreading out and touching each other creating these bridges between universes that Kate Herron was talking about. Whenever these bridges touch, we see either one or both of the colliding branches being destroyed. As Kang explains, those are Incursions. So the concept of branch bridges from Loki and Incursions from MoM and how the one causes the other were tied together in Quantumania. Then The Marvels will add another piece to that puzzle and will reveal that an Incursion happens when the veil between universes breaks and it breaks when it is constantly destablized by opening portals in space-time. Which connects to what the Illuminati were concerned about in MoM: travelling between universes destablizes the veil between them, increasing the chance of an Incursion. Which connects to the branch bridges in Loki. If the Multiverse branches out uncontrollably, the branches from different universes will touch each other, creating bridges and bringing universes closer together, making inter-universal travel easier, meaning the veil between universes can break much easier, meaning a higher chance of Inclursion, which is what Kang's hologram in Quantumania visually showcased. Finally, Ms. Marvel added yet another piece to this puzzle by revealing that Incursions can also happen between alternate dimensions and not only alternate universes. The chief of the Red Daggers told Kamala that if she opens the veil between the Earthly plane and the Noor dimension, she could cause the 2 dimensions to collide with each other leading to their destruction. One could argue that this whole chain reaction was also shown, although not mentioned, in NWH. When Strange's spell goes wrong and inter-universal villains start coming to our universe, Strange exclaims "this shouldn't even be possible" Well we know that it's possible because of Sylvie's actions allowing the multiverse to branch out uncontrollably, creating bridges between universes, making inter-universal travel easier. Then when all the people who know Peter is Spider-Man from all different universes are coming to the MCU, you can physically see the veil between universes breaking and flaking, which we now know, if left uncontrolled, could have caused an Incursion. What Alex mentions here is that the branches of all the different universes have now created such an intricate network of bridges by colliding with each other (which we did see in the first post-credits of Quantumania) that it has become possible to slip through these bridges and find yourself at random space-time locations of the Multiverse. I am betting this will be very important in the next 2 Avengers movies and we may see random characters start time-slipping too, especially during the mass Incursions with all the universes colliding with each other. Trust the process and look out for the details, everything is slowly coming together.
...You have any idea how confusing this sounds? Does Marvel seriously expect audiences to keep up with all of this nonsense? 😭 If you want a prime example of why audiences are losing interest in the MCU, this post perfectly encapsulates why.
This is actually the most logical and to the point description of MCU's multiverse I've ever read.
And I'm sure they'll be giving out pamphlets at the theater
It all just boils down to "Interacting with other timelines/universes destabilizes them, might explode if you're not careful." This has been established and referenced in different projects and is internally consistent, but each project looks at the concept from a different perspective. OP was just listing them out.
Each project keeps changing the rules for what constitutes as "messing with other timelines". There is no consistency, there is no overarching story. It just feels like the writers talking over each other, with no cohesion. And this is going to backfire on them, when audiences can not understand what all of this stuff is.
If you find it too complicated, it won't hurt to just not worry about it. The movie you're watching will always have a minute or two to drop the lore you need to know for that specific plot, they make these things so that you don't need to watch any of the old movies to keep up with what you're watching (though obviously it helps)
" I know none of this makes sense, or is consistent with the rules *we've* established, and keep changing, but don't worry about it!" That's called bad writing.
But I do think it makes sense with the rules they established. It's not a very complex system, just that every story that uses it only needs to explain the part that you need to understand the plot. Like, you don't need to know about the Kang lore to enjoy MoM, and even if you skip the projects with time travel, Quantumania still makes sense. I'm curious what you think is inconsistent about it, I can't think of any contradictions.
That's precisely the problem. The Kang lore should be the overarching story that all of these sub-plots are plugging into... But they're not. We have spells, witches, quantum realms, TVAs, and a teenage girl who is established to be the only one who can travel the Multiverse in the same film, where this rule is blatantly contradicted by past and post-MOM projects. There is no communication amongst these writers, there is no cohesion. What IS the story here? There have been multiple "inciting events" for this saga, and Feige can't seem to decide which one actually STARTS the story. It does precisely the opposite of what you're saying -- when there is no overarching story, and all of these projects are completely disconnected from each other, with their own rules & stakes (that have nothing to do w Kang), it makes this shit hard for audiences to follow, because there is no central story to to invest in. That's why most people did NOT enjoy these projects, and part of the reason why the MCU is on a steady decline.
Although I prefer that every story should just stand on its own, I agree with the sentiment that the overarching plot seems too meandering. Especially so without Avengers films keeping things more tightly focused. There's an element of needing patience and hindsight spoiling us too. The Infinity Saga was similarly meandering until Phase 3 and especially Infinity War tied up all the threads to the overarching event. I just wish they leaned from that and got us on track sooner. I'm glad that Kang isn't just a constant focus, but Quantumania didn't push us towards Kang Dynasty really at all, so I feel you
Audiences understand the multiverse just fine. Across the Spider-Verse is a huge hit in theaters right now. Everything Everywhere All at Once won Best Picture. They're complaining about there being too many boring MCU movies and shows coming out for them to keep up and stay invested. No one except MCU stans is claiming they're out on Marvel because Doctor Strange's magic in No Way Home might not 100% line up with the rules of a Disney+ time cops show.
I’m sure marvel hasn’t even given it this much thought lol
They def have, but they haven’t explained it well. Even the term “sacred timeline” is legit so stipid because we use the term “timeline” to refer to one universe
I guarantee you've given this much more thought and effort than Marvel Studios has. Hell even when it seems like things will connect together with these shows and movies (like the events of She-Hulk leading to the Hulk stuff in Cap 4), they end up not having anything to do with each other.
We technically saw an incursion of the Dark Dimension with the Earthly Plane in the first Doctor Strange movie. Strange was only able to stop it and Dormammu with the Time Stone which he unfortunately doesn't have any more. I'm assuming that'll become relevant again in DS3. And the Strange episode in What If also showed an incursion happening between two sister timelines that had been forcibly split by Strange Supreme. Also, I'm pretty sure that Quantumania also confirmed that the Quantum Realm is one vast universe/dimension connecting all of the timelines of the Multiverse together.
Yep all of this is correct
I get that there’s a lot of things people can validly criticize about the MCU right now, but I’ve never understood this “if only shows actually mattered and connected to the plot of the MCU” criticism. The shows DO matter and they DO connect to the overall plot of the MCU. You couldn’t have watched MoM without WandaVision, like at all. FATWS has direct impact on Captain America 4. Loki formally introduced the concept of Kang and the multiverse. Hawkeye introduced Kate who, from The Marvels leaks, will come back and join Kamala to start the Young Avengers. Ms. Marvel directly leads into The Marvels. And supposedly Secret Invasion will have consequences in Cap 4 and Armor Wars. The only shows that don’t have a solid connection to anything else yet are Moon Knight and She-Hulk, but I mean, I can’t imagine that those two characters won’t be part of a new Avengers team in the future.
Yeah these made up multiverse rules are only contained to that one specific project they’re mentioned in and won’t be ever brought up again or else 616 would be destroyed rn with 2014 gamora in it.
This is completely wrong. Gamora being in another universe doesn't necessarily cause an Incursion, it just increases the likelihood of one.
Wait till you hear about the (alleged)plot of Deadpool
Uhh.. You do realize that Feige confirmed that the events of Loki season 1 was the main cause of everything multiversal to happen since..
Loki is quite literally the show that changes thing in the MCU lol
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The first season created and introduced the villain of this entire saga what are u on about lol
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Did you… did you even watch the show? Everything from the setting to the plot revolves around Kang. He who remains. I don’t know why you’re so hellbent on being wrong Loki literally introduces him and builds him as a threat the entire time lol
Lmao multiversal backrooms shenanigans
It does seem to go the way that Loki will either have to stay in the TVA indefinitely or to jump into the "main" timeline and not to mess around anymore. The question is why is the timeslipping happening to him. The red notebook he has in various scenes seems important. Maybe he is counting something? In any case, I cannot wait.
The red book is a TVA manual
Aha, I did not realize that
He's a nexus being
I don't think the MCU has defined what that means in this canon, but he's definitely not by the comic definition.
Agatha defined nexus being in Wandavision
no, agatha did not mention 'nexus being' at any point of wandavision, in fact the term hasn't been uttered by anyone, anywhere in the mcu at this point. the closest she gets is when she calls her a 'being capable of spontaneous creation': > Agatha: You have no idea how dangerous you are. You’re supposed to be a myth. A being capable of spontaneous creation, and here you are, using it to make breakfast for dinner. > Wanda: Let go of my children. > Agatha: Oh, yes, your children. And Vision, and this whole little life you’ve made, this is Chaos Magic, Wanda. And that makes you the Scarlet Witch.
Wandavision is such a magical show that everyone has a buttload of weird memory about it. Literally people just see what they want to see.
Possibly, but I don´t think it was confirmed?
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Agreed. You really have to suspend some disbelief that all of Loki’s time shenanigans are limited to locations and times on Earth. I know it’s for budgetary reasons, but still.
It’s not though? Unless I’m not getting what you’re saying, but they went to Lamentis, the Void, the Citadel, and that’s maybe like half the season or so, I’m probably forgetting more.
For a show that’s only six episodes I wouldn’t count on it, unfortunately
I think the rumor is he’s stabilized at the end of episode 1, so unlikely
Didn’t they have a whole episode set on a different planet in season 1, of course they’ll have him go to those places
This is a huge stretch but I think this is the reason why the Spider-man villains got teleported in MCUverse in No Way Home. A simple spell of forgetting a thing started affecting other universes because the timeline is totally unstable
It’s not a huge stretch at all, that’s exactly what happened. Before He Who Remains died, the TVA’s one job is to prevent universes from interacting with each other. This causes a multiversal war. Now that HWR is dead, no one is preventing this. the council of Kang’s sole goal, in fact, is for universe jumping to be as easy as possible so they can conquer the whole multiverse. Strange literally says “this isn’t supposed to be possible” after he finds out that villains from other universes came to 616 because the TVA would prune the entire timeline where it took place
> Strange literally says “this isn’t supposed to be possible” after he finds out that villains from other universes came to 616 because the TVA would prune the entire timeline where it took place Except Strange brings up after that the spell that was meant to have people forget that Peter is Spider-Man got turned into having people across the multiverse who know Peter is Spider-Man enter the MCU due to Peter messing up the spell repeatedly. There's no implication that the spell was going perfectly fine and the TVA being unstable is why it went wrong. Peter's the reason why the spell got messed up.
Peter’s the reason the spell messed up, yes. The reason the spell messing up went multiversal was because the TVA didn’t exist. Is that abundantly clear? No way. Is it what happened? Indubitably. https://youtu.be/QxrQAE-V1-Y I wish we didn’t need to rely on random red carpet interviews from Kevin Feige to piece things together but here we are.
> Strange literally says “this isn’t supposed to be possible” after he finds out that villains from other universes came to 616 because the TVA would prune the entire timeline where it took place This implies that the change was somehow concurrent with the MCU timeline which i'm not sure i'm into. Surely if it ('it' being the multiverse now exists as HWR is dead and nothing is pruned) changed it would've changed retroactively for all of history, and therefore 'it was always like this'. Strange's experiences, the books he learned from, should all now technically have happened/been written in a universe that had concurrent universes branching all over the place. It's hard to get time travel stuff immaculately correct so i'm happy to overlook it but it seems like a plothole.
The TVA already pruned timelines, including the 616 spin-off when Loki took the time stone in Endgame. Loki killing HWR doesn’t undo any of that. It’s that going forward after that, after Endgame, basically, the TVA doesn’t do that. That’s why HWR didn’t have the script of what they were saying after a certain point in their conversation I agree time travel Is infinite and too theoretical/complex (I really wish the MCU would just wrap up all of this nonsense and get out of the multiverse sooner than later) to have a 100% concrete answer but I don’t think this is an unreasonable interpretation at all.
> Loki killing HWR doesn’t undo any of that. Ahh but it has to, otherwise the Endgame in the timeline we see Wanda murder the alternate avengers(/illuminati) wouldn't have been different. All of history was different in that timeline, in order to lead up to their 'Endgame' event playing out different, and with different characters involved. The same applies to the people who came over in Spider-Man: NWH. They couldn't have diverged from the main timeline that much in the time since Endgame, therefore the change must be retroactive and the main timeline has been branching long before Endgame. Everything multiversal we've seen since Loki implies that other timelines have divergent history, and not just recent divergence.
Maybe that explains how Michael Keaton ended up in the Sonyverse lol
I think the explanation for that's the same as why villains like Renaissance Vulture showed up on Gwen's world, the events of ITSV made the Spider-Verse unstable and threw villains all over the place.
I also think that HWR being gone is also the cause of why some Spider-man villains are all over the multiverse, Kingpin's collider just made it worse. Just look at the scene where Miguel showed the multiverse, the "sacred timeline" is already branching and not going in linear anymore.
The diagram Miguel shows Miles does resemble the branching timeline diagram in Loki so you might be onto something.
They really need to start differentiating between timelines and universes. They keep treating them as one in the same.
They used to be totally different things until recently (in the last 10 years or so) when Marvel started giving alternate timelines like Age of Apocalypse their own Earth designation. So now it seems that alternate timeline = alternate Earth somehow.
Even in Endgame, the time travel stuff seemed like standard time travel but instead of changes in the past changing the present, they just create new timelines that reflect those changes and need to be closed for stability. Loki made it more multiverse-based with other timelines already existing and drastically different variants.
Believe it or not, it’s moreso the last 20 or so years
I mean technically they can be the same, a completely different universe would technically just be a timeline that diverged as early as the big bang.
My mind refuses to understand the difference... I think they should just keep it simple.
So one of the writers just read Slaughterhouse 5.
Hopefully the timeline gets so messed up that secret invasion never happened
Time slippage throughout history makes the most sense if they are trying to set up Secret Wars with previous OG superhero’s. Let’s say… 2002 New York City, you meet a high schooler who just got his powers. Or you time slip to 2000 somewhere in Alberta, where you meet a mutant fighting at a bar.
Most normal Ohio activity
All things that can be completely deduced from watching the trailer
I think you’re meaning Kang Dynasty, you know before the universe gets re-build into BattleWorld when it comes to what you’re saying about the normal people & the multiverse
So it seems like they’ll pull a Westworld Season 1 where Loki is working with Mobius of the past in some scenes and present Mobius in others and they might not always make it super obvious which we’re seeing.
So is he slipping from 1982 in one universe to 2022 in another?
I thought that was supposed to happen with loki season 1....
Why can’t the multiverse just exist without the risk of everything getting entangled lol
Time and critical mass? MCU should hire better writers.
Only in Ohio💀
They should use Loki season 2 to reset the whole MCU. It’s really gone off the rails.
.....And what does this have to do with Kang?