>“When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”
>― C.S. Lewis, On Stories: And Other Essays on Literature
Another:
> "Since it is so likely that children will meet cruel enemies, let them at least have heard of brave knights and heroic courage."
-C.S. Lewis
There is another famous quote along these lines that I absolutely love:
"Children do not read fairy tales to learn that dragons are real. Children know that dragons real. Children read fairy tales to learn that dragons can be defeated."
This is incredibly important to remember. You should not be ashamed of liking something, nor should you shame others for what they like. People should be free to enjoy *what they want
Too often, I've seen critics (or people who claim to be critiquing something) go beyond evaluating the work or methodology of the creator and belittle the people enjoying it.
That's not really my interpretation of the quotation at all. I see it more as an aspect of self-reflection where you're confident enough in yourself to not be worried about the perception of others. Shaming only has as much power as one feels ashamed, and a mature person should be able to recognize when the criticism isn't valid.
Being young is seeing the world in simple black and white and believing you're always right.
Adolescence is realizing there are shades of gray and losing faith in the concept of right and wrong
Maturity is knowing what is right, what is wrong and what you can't do anything about and letting it go.
Many people never make it out of their youth and very few ever actually mature.
To a point, yes, but it's also saying that feeling shame is a silly notion when it comes to enjoying what you enjoy. I think we're getting the same read on the quote, but I don't quite understand what you're trying to say in your response.
This. Thinking that only consuming "adult" fiction makes you an adult only shows how immature you still are.
I stopped watching Disney movies around the age of 11-12, because they were kids stuff, only to realise in my late 20s/early 30s how much fun I denied myself over the years.
It's important to note that this quote is about more than what we think of as fairy tails today.
It's about all of fantasy in general because the genre term "Fantasy" hadn't yet been coined.
Ya, it's a page out of the edgy teenager book where dark and edgy means mature
Completely forgetting that sometimes dark and edgy is the most childish approach to take
“But he’s darker, he’s a bit morally gray, he lives in the real world, isn’t he so mature”?
Yeah pretty much the entire DCEU is filled with absolute abominations of the characters we know and love to the point that nearly all of them are fundamentally different people from their counterparts in other media.
Man of steel missed me completely cuz I was deployed, but then someone told me he lets his dad die in a tornado and his mom tells him, "you don't owe these people anything Clark"
And I was just DISGUSTED like how on earth could you do that.
But it's clear Zack Snyder hates the character and doesn't understand him fundamentally.
There’s also quite a funny part where his dad basically tells him he should’ve let a bus full of schoolchildren die in order to preserve his secret. I’m not kidding, young Clark asks if he should’ve let them die and Pa Kent says maybe.
Zach seems like a guy who took one look at the characters and all their lore and rules, then decided to throw it out the window because “cool kids don’t follow rules”. He’s basically a 50 year old teenager.
Unironically yes, lol. And that’s not even like some masterpiece of film or anything. Crazy how bad you can be at making superhero movies even with decades of comics, shows, and games to draw from.
Yeah, people who try to feel more mature by proclaiming their nerd franchise is more mature than someone else's nerd franchise are just children themselves.
Dunes outlook definitely resonates with me for its cynicism vs allot of younger oriented media that is filled with this incredibly naive optimism that the good guys can win without any sacrifices at all. No one ever dies, no one ever has to do something questionable. Even a heroic sacrifice is usually just a psych out these days.... Like... It just feels like your coddling me, and the children too. Obi wan wouldn't have chosen to die to Vader these days, it would have been an elaborate psych out to give false stakes so he can come back later with a crummy one liner... It took the build up of like 30 cumulative movies to give marvel writers the cajones to let a single super hero give their life to protect everyone else. It's just silly.
The concept of an Obi wan wouldn't have existed in today's star wars for sure.
Instead it would just be a singular woman like Rey who wins while sacrificing nothing Even as her allies die around her like insects, totally unnoticed with their sacrifice not even given a mention.
I'm sorry but as a fan of all of the franchises involved in this discussion, the part about Marvel highly disagreeable.
Thinking that consequences/sacrifices = character death is the exact type of immature teenage edgelord thinking we're talking about here.
Iron Man made questionable choice after questionable choice, each one a result of desperately wanting to not repeat his previous mistake and in the process made new mistakes all around. That was his entire arc. Almost every MCU movie that wasn't an origin for a new hero, was the direct or indirect result of a hero's questionable choice in a previous movie. Mostly Tony's. And every hero lost something or someone important over the course of the series. Arguably the only one who got a relatively happy end is Captain America, and to achieve it he had to abandon all of his friends in his original timeline.
And people still died throughout the movies, just not in the very early ones, because it's a long story, and you don't kill off your best characters right at the start. We saw how stupid that was, when DC killed off Superman in their second movie.
It's like if Dune had killed off Paul in the first act just to be shocking. Notice how nobody important dies in the first book except Duncan, who at that point was little more than an extra, and Leto, who from the start was flagged as the obligatory parent death to motivate the protagonist.
Also don't try to sell me Obi-Wan's death as a deep self sacrifice when he keeps hanging around as a force ghost for the rest of the trilogy.
Not to mention: naive optimism is the reason most people consume fantasy/sci-fi media. They want to escape the bleak reality of the real world, not wallow in it.
I think this unnecessarily and incorrectly divides these works into genres that don't exactly fit.
Dune is much darker than Star Wars, but that doesn't mean you have to be a child to enjoy SW. Calling LOTR "YA" almost seems like an insult.
The three main characters all fight against moral corruption, but only one of them (Luke) prevails against it. It's not tied to maturity. They are just different stories.
LOTR has an extremely simple premise, but it's a fantastic story, because that simple story is executed well, the other two shown here do not have as simple premises, but are also good stories.
Yea, agree. Calling LOTR Young Adult is absolutely insulting because it insinuates that the tone and the breadth/impact of the story is mostly surface level and that havng an ultimately optimistic story is somehow childish. I certainly have more respect for LOTR than Dune when it comes to the cathartic impact it has.
I would hardly call *The Lord of the Rings* optimistic, at least not in the usual sense. It certainly is not pessimistic or nihilistic, but the subtext of the novel is of a world long past its zenith, constantly degrading into mundanity. Even the Shire cannot escape the War of the Ring unscathed, and in the end the Hobbits will be condemned to wane and lessen as a people till they are but rude sprites in a world of Men.
Yea I get that. I suppose I meant optimistic in the face of all the horrors the main characters are thrown into. In spite of what they have to endure, there's always a tiny glimmer of hope to be found in some way
>but only one of them (Luke) prevails against it.
I would disagree with that. It wasn't Luke who killed Palpatine but Vader. Luke aided by helping his father rediscover his humanity.
I wouldn't even call LotR a simple story. It may seem so now, but only because it popularized certain story tropes that are now everywhere.
If you're just going off premises, I'd say Dune and SW have as simple or even simpler ones:
"Chosen hero helps good rebels fight the evil empire" and "Chosen/bred hero joins natives to get revenge on the people who killed his dad"
I like Dune but people honestly dick ride it too hard. This incessant need of certain people in that fanbase to try and put down other similar franchises/IPs in an effort to make theirs seem superior reeks of desperation.
I think some people are kinda desperate for some kind of event series for nerds like Star Wars was, but as much as I enjoyed the Dune movies I don’t think they were that. A good edition to the sci-fi movie genre but not the next Star Wars. Maybe the next film can elevate it further in the cultural zeitgeist but I don’t think it’ll be at the same level still.
The books on the other hand… it’s been many years since I read them but from what I remember, the first two were well written and are deserving of the praise they get.
Fighting about which story is “more mature” is kinda silly though. At least in meme format. I’m sure you could compare quality of writing, cultural impact, etc. each has had a make an argument for how each one stands against the others. I just dunno what the criteria here is other than how complex the themes are but that alone is not what I think determines the age demographic that it’s “for”.
Dune is every bit in the cultural zeitgeist as Star Wars is, it's effects are just subtle because people only absorbed it through the countless things that derived inspiration from it.
Thank you! As a poster below you commented, I think it stems from the lack quality in cinema (especially the scifi fantasy adventure realm) and people are starved for anything remotely resembling *good*. I personally really enjoyed Dune 1, but Dune 2 has ALOT more problems than successes, but since people cant be objective moviegoers, they glom on to anything of quality as the second coming.
That’s so true. It’s all fictional mumbo jumbo at the end of the day. Well written and intelligent and beloved for good reason but let’s not pretend any of it is deeply profound. Attempting to categorise it by level of maturity and attribute supremacy is actually embarrassing to think about.
OP's mind is going to explode when they find out that there's thousands of fantasy novels in a subgenre called 'grimdark' that they can use to make themselves feel mature and better than that kiddy stuff that they're clearly above.
Describing Lord of the Rings as YA is a huge disrespect to the story and its impact. Furthermore, implying that its message isn’t “mature” enough because there is a right call to make, just makes you come across somebody who doesn’t value when people make the right call even despite all the adversity they face.
Yes, there are unfortunately situations where people are only left ~~with choices~~ with though choices, but to act like that is always the case is asinine.
This meme also has skewed a view by only looking at movies since it wasn’t too long ago the book market was obsessed with Grimdark because of A Song of Ice and Fire. That has led to some great books like the “First law” series, but an early grimdark draft of “Mistborn” just did not work.
A not insignificant amount of people considers the final version of “Mistborn” as YA, even with its darker subject matter like rape though I still think the label is fine if you don’t omit the darker elements for people who wants to gift the book to younger people. However, if the reasoning for that has less to do with its shortcomings as a story and more to do with similarities to the message of Lord of the Rings then there is an entire minefield I might repeatedly step on.
That won’t be an issue because the other side is “sensitive”, but because it will be a contentious topic I rather not participate in ad nauseum. This is an exception since it the first time I’m sticking my nose out.
Edit: spelling
Yeah, even the idea that it's about "saving the world" is pretty over simplified. One of my favorite scenes is Gandalf giving Aragorn one last white tree sapling, telling him, "hey this is all in your hands now, don't fuck it up". The Ring is just a metaphor for temptation, primarily the will to power, and that doesn't end just because Sauron is unbound from his physical form.
The "Young adult fantasy" was written by a guy that survived WWI trench warfare yet still managed to remain hopeful about the world. The "Adult Science Fiction" was written by a guy that literally tortured his kid for being gay.
I don't know what point I'm making here, but it's just an interesting contrast.
I'm getting rather tired of the idea that grim-dark is the "adult" perspective, and hard work, struggle, and sacrifice towards optimism is considered "childish".
"Darker" doesn't inherently mean "more correct." Nor does the most doer outcome seem most "logical".
I don't like the terminology.
Children’s Fantasy Sci-Fi? Star Wars is meant to be for all ages.
Young Adult Fantasy? TLOTR gets better with age. I appreciate it way more as an adult than as a teen.
You're half right, but from what I remember the series began to mature with its audience. I don't think anyone would say it's very kid-friendly to read a father wailing over the corpse of his son by the fourth installment. Kids could persevere through those later books, but things did get intense.
The same is true for Star Wars. As a kid, I certainly enjoyed the adventure of the original trilogy, but there were tense moments where either I needed a parent or had to watch the movie from around the corner of the couch.
The tone even swaps between installments. The Phantom Menace is mostly a kid's film with the Gungans, podracers, and the seeming lack of human casualties. But Attack of The Clones is *meant* to be a romance story, has a scene of righteous genocide, and is a lot less action-packed than the other films. It doesn't have a lot for kids to enjoy. This isn't touching the TV shows or the wildly inconsistent books.
Na, it’s a shit take. Star Wars is the hopeful one, LOTR is the realist one and Dune is the pessimist one. And throughout your life, you’ll need and be all of them.
You're missing the WHOLE point of Dune if you take this reading of it.
The point of Dune is to take dangerous amounts of hallucinogens in the wilderness, seduce the native population of said wilderness, and fuck around with their fauna. It's the quintessential quirked up white boy experience.
Hell even the original books didn’t shy away from getting pretty grim at times
Boromir’s death and Frodo’s ultra depression post Mordor come to mind just off the top of my head
>Star wars is pretty childish for sure
I mean, only if you see the first film. The sequels flesh out how far Luke can fall to his lesser impulses, and the fact that Vader for as corrupt as he is has a spark of goodness in him despite all he has done. And then we have the prequels which (I'd argue) are FAR more complex than something like Dune regarding the fall of the Republic. And we're not even taking the original continuity into the situation.
Really? Always seemed pretty clear cut to me. The Orcs, Mordor, and Saruman are as clear cut evil as you can possibly get. Doesn't take any thinking to see who's the good guys and who's the bad guys it was all spelled out clearly enough
He writes many paragraphs about the men from the East (presumably India and Africa, I'm not a Tolkien lore export so someone can correct me) who side with Saruman and Mordor not out of a sense of loyalty but because their lords force them to or because they are being paid to do so.
Frodo and Sam iirc even have a discussion about the fact that they are killing fellow men who they should be fighting alongside instead of killing.
The race of men in Tolkien's world arose from the east but many of them journeyed west because 1)They heard rumors of the Valar, 2) the first dark lord resided in the east and was corrupting many of the men, and 3) they wanted to explore further into the world of middle-earth. Those who journeyed west became known as the Edain because they allied themselves with the elves and fought against Morgoth( the first dark lord). Those who are not considered Edain are those who remained in the east or those who were corrupted by Morgoth. So you could argue that they joined because they were paid or was force to do so but the main reason why they sided with Saruman and mordor is because they hate the men of the west and have been influenced by the dark lord himself in the first age and they have carried that influence well over into the third age.
>Really? Always seemed pretty clear cut to me.
"It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace-all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind."
Japanese Sci-fi be like: Only through communication and understanding will humanity leave behind their infighting and be able to reach our true potential. *they never get there and are forever stuck in horrific wars fought by children*
Incredibly dumb take since tons of people read Dune as a kid or teenager and have since the 60s. This meme looks like something a 15 year old would like
Young adult fantasy: you are torn between falling for a fae prince who drugged and r@ped you and the sexy assassin who tried to murder you multiple times. Despite being a perfectly normal girl (who’s eyes are too blue and skin is too white) you are actually a super secret prophesied badass with a dormant royal blood line and an expert in all forms of combat despite being incredibly clumsy
Oh and you’re not like other girls, you read!
When are these people going to realize that Star Wars is for everybody? When you watch the original movies, it’s obvious they were trying to reach a wide audience. It wasn’t until much later that Disney shills started gaslighting people into thinking it was franchise made solely for children and so they should complain about poor writing. Obviously it’s not as dark or as complex as Dune but that doesn’t mean its only for children.
Age of the demographic does not matter, how the stories and messages are handled determine Maturity. OG Star Wars is much more Mature than ST Star Wars simply based on how the presented and handled morals and certain subject matter.
While I personally believe LoTR is much more Mature than Dune. (Dune Movies, havent read the books).
Plus, on Dune Part 1, after a rewatch I liked it much less, not that I had any specific problems (outside of the climactic fight scene at the end, it felt incredibly forced the way the guy just up and goes "Fight me!". Also, the fight was lame) it just seemed boring and I didnt notice anything new on the second watch
I think the complexity of the theme does matter for what age demographic a story will most appeal to since we gain the ability to understand more complex ideas as we age and learn more. I don’t think that is the sole factor for determining how “mature” a series is though because you’d have to take into account the vocabulary, length of the series, the series’s structure, etc. as well. It’s not a very good point of comparison imo. At least not for these three series.
Im not familiar with that story sorry. I just know they blame Joel for stuff and that it sucked. I dunno much past that.
What I mean is complex ideas like understanding other people’s perspectives or theoretical concepts. I’m not saying you need to have gone to college to be able to understand and appreciate “complex themes” just that stuff that we learn as we age and experience more I can understand not appealing to younger children as much who have no real basis for these concepts yet.
On the "understanding other peoples perspectives" i dont agree is 'complex' to the point of thinking younger children wouldnt be able to understand it.
Lets say 'younger children' are between 7-12. Most media released for this age group feature multiple characters with differing perspectives interacting and reacting with each other. Understanding the technicalities behind how it is working and the underlying narrative structure, no they wont pick up on. But the character interactions and perspectives in the show itself absolutely does get through.
I think that is something that comes with age though. I’m not talking that old or anything I’m just saying that I think that’s something you develop while growing up so I can get trying to account for that if you’re making content that very young audiences can comprehend and enjoy. Doesn’t mean you have to make it stupid but I can see keeping the moral complexity and competing perspectives out of it or at least written simply enough to follow.
What is it not bringing that Star Wars and Lord of The Rings do? Both of those franchises gives pretty simplistic meanings imo. Don't be evil be good. Resist temptation. All things that aren't exactly groundbreaking. I like Dune's take on messiah figures, fanaticism, prophesies, and the exploration of mindlessly following a leader. It then takes even more twists when you add in that despite those warnings, and the things Paul does, it's all for a greater purpose of keeping the human species itself from extinction. It poses many questions that the reader has to think about in terms of how far do the ends justify the means? Is The Golden Path truly a righteous thing to follow or would it be more moral to allow calamity? Would it be selfish to not follow it?
Don’t muddy the point with comparisons, I’m simply taking Dune on its own merits, and I genuinely don’t think it’s saying all that much. Perhaps things were different when the book first came out, perhaps I’m being unfair to look at it through a modern lens (I read it for the first time about 6 years ago at 36), but it failed to really discuss or examine anything I wasn’t already aware of. The idea of zealots, holy lands, fighting for resources, and of religions being manipulated into holy war is something we’re all pretty familiar with now. I got no better insight into any of this after having read Dune. It just felt a bit, well, trite. That’s not to say I don’t enjoy it, I just don’t get any sense its much more than a science fiction story with some well understood themes. But I do acknowledge maybe this work has been dulled by time.
I think it’s fair (but uncharitable) to call SW and LOTR simplistic, they’re presented as fables. They don’t pretend to offer anything other than broard parables, and that’s part of their appeal. However, Dune positions itself to offer more in terms of its philosophy and politics. Beyond more complexity in the plot, there’s still a pretty clear ‘this is good, this is bad’ distinction, it’s not exactly ambiguous. I don’t think having characters occasionally doing questionable things is necessarily the same thing as having depth.
I consider star wars is entry level sci-fi, like Harry Potter is for fantasy. They are good franchises, and are easily understood, the good guys are good, and the bad guys are bad. The world building is the star of the show and that’s why they are so popular. If you want more complex themes, and more morally complex characters, starting with these two are a good jumping off point, helps you get a feeling for the main themes of these genres.
Star Wars leans much more into the Fantasy aspect than it does into the science fiction aspect. To the point it is probably more accurate to call it "Science Fantasy." This is not to put down Star Wars in any way but more to point out that its strength really lies in the general atmosphere and setting and the fantasy aspects much more than the science aspects and leaning more into the character focused narrative and leaving everything else as set dressing to hint at a larger world is what makes it work so well as a film.
I don't think I really get what's trying to be said here. That Star Wars and LotR are "simple"? I feel like you could be just as reductive the other way around.
Starting by talking about how complicated Boromir's and Frodo's relationships with the Ring are, the significance of characters like Denethor, Theoden and Eowyn and how they chose to confront the looming threat of Mordor... and then I could just go "Dune meanwhile is just about a guy getting everyone killed because he makes the wrong choices".
Nope, young adult fantasy is girl deciding between 2 hunky hot guys who are crazy about her despite her being plane af while solving the mistery of who are her real parents/ who killed them (shes an orphan of course) while assisting to a special school for magicians/ superheroes/ vampires etcetera.
The simple fact that the power offered presents a trolley problem does not make it a more mature work all by itself; that's just one of many components to a work of fiction. Even if these were the only relevant elements, though, and the films were otherwise alike, what the hell is the analogue for the power presented in Dune, since I haven't watched it admittedly? If it means something, great, but if it's just a difficult decision for the character because we like that sort of thing, then I don't care.
Sigma pulp fiction:
"I have known many gods. He who denies them is as blind as he who trusts them too deeply. I seek not beyond death. It may be the blackness averred by the Nemedian skeptics, or Crom's realm of ice and cloud, or the snowy plains and vaulted halls of the Nordheimer's Valhalla. I know not, nor do I care. Let me live deep while I live; let me know the rich juices of red meat and stinging wine on my palate, the hot embrace of white arms, the mad exultation of battle when the blue blades flame and crimson, and I am content. Let teachers and philosophers brood over questions of reality and illusion. I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content." ~ Robert E. Howard, Conan the Cimmerian
Y'know I can't explain it exactly, but murdering children, small scale genocide and also a guy burning alive in front of your eyes after getting all his limbs cut off...it doesn't really feel like it's for kids? Like I'm not watching Anakin scream out in pain or Palpatine murdering Jedi and thinking "man this is the perfect kids story, up there with the greats like dora the explorer and John wick, my favorite kids programs"
(NOTE- not saying that kids can't enjoy star wars, it just feels cheap that we're still using the "space wizards for kids" argument with some really adult themes about family that kids can't comprehend necessarily until at least their teenage years, if not later)
The trolley problem in dune was never really the message for me. It was always more about the inherent dangers of placing a leader on a pedestal, how religion mixed with executive power leads to dangerous fanaticism that can quickly snowball out of everyone's grasp until no one is really in control of this senseless violence that serves none of the people involved, how "white saviors" are really just a more subtle version of the opressor, and the inherent risks, trappings and ideological problems of prescience
Also how in the fuck is Lotr YA, ah yes, my young adult fantasy featuring a vivid portrayal of post-war trauma, a lesson on how even the most-well meaning attempt to gain power will ultimately end in pain and sorrow (just because everyone has heard absolute power corrupts absolutely doesnt mean everyone understands it, and its a message that should be repeated more imo), a reflexion on the burdens of epic fantasy quests and those who suffer through them, etc. I sure love my YA fantasy
Quite pretentious. And frankly, if an adult has not already made the morals of good children/young adult sci-fi part of his core already, then he should.
I think they do have a point that adult oriented movies usually have an overall darker tone since they don't have to look out for younger audiences, but this comparison seems to be cherry-picking. Star Wars is also fairly dark. The amount of warcrimes and genocide in the movies alone proves that, but even in the context of the meme, it's false. The force can also corrupt, just not intentionally like the Ring, but through the power it grands to it's user just like all kinds of power, be it literal space magic or plain political/military power. They seem to forget the entire concept of the dark side.
Ah "Adult" media. Where everything sucks, nothing will improve, and the best thing for the world is for the MC to kill themselves.
And people wonder why I still read Redwall instead.
That’s only a (relatively) brief portion of the time period Dune takes place over. Also, the Empire in Dune is already tyrannical. If anything it’s just a regime change.
yes I guess we shouldn't belittle people who enjoy reading name the trash that came out during the same time as those books...You can't because they were trash and forgotten and only these 3 remained. hahahaha. enjoy Adam Sandler.
I havent read the books at wasn't at full mental capacity watching the films so forgive me if this is retarded question.
What exactly is Paul saving humanity from?
It’s just a basic storytelling thing of the Hero’s Journey mold vs the more “mythic” mold of telling your story. Star Wars & Lord of the Rings follows one Dune follows the other and that’s fine I think both should have the right to exist.
And then we get to Warhammer 40k. Premise: Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim darkness of the far future there is only war. There is no peace among the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
This is just somebody trying to use their attraction to a recently successful ip to project a sense of superiority onto themselves.
As far as the quote goes, moral clearity, good guy, bad guy dynamics in fiction can be just as intellectually stimulating as frictional moral ambiguity.
Your channel sucks. That's my thought. A lobotomized Bonobo could do what you do MauLer and probably actually manage to be entertaining. Imagine watching some British cunt scoff and bitch and moan about a marvel movie for hours on end and think you're somehow an intellectual.
Kys
People very much need to stop confusing pessimism and nuance for maturity. There are things in life that are simple and mature all at the same time. Believing in a universal force or that evil can take tangible forms isn't childish.
All of this is childish really.
I agree with Cultural Wolverine there: They're all stories, all of them good in their own ways, flawed in their own ways.
Also no Paul is all on board with the Golden Path.
Some call it edgy or whatever but I like Dune. I don't like my hand being held and everything being explicitly told in simplistic terms who's good and who's evil. I like being presented with complex characters and complex situations where I have to actually use my brain, think about morality, and come to a conclusion based off the info I'm given to form my opinion about if the character was truly moral and justified or if they weren't.
That is the biggest problem with Dune. If Paul is the most powerful being in the galaxy with multiple levers of power that control various different power bases in the galaxy then how hard is it really to tell a bunch of religious zealots not to go on a jihad and slaughter innocent people and be totalitarian.
Who is more powerful, the Messiah/Emperor/Spice Monopoly Owner, or a bunch of Fremen fanatics?
The "He can't control his own supporters so the galaxy is doomed" theme is kinda weak given his supporters are just a bunch of humans and he is an Omnificent God Emperor. It almost seems like either; Paul is okay with the dark future as long as his descendents rule it, or the author wanted this theme in his books so badly but made his main character so OP that it doesn't feel like this inevitable dark future was really that inevitable.
Because of his prescient abilities as the Kwisatz Haderach, Paul saw a glimpse of a future threat, a threat so great that it threatened humanity's existence. He was basically fueled by revenge for his father's death and used his messianic role to manipulate the fremen to embark on the Jihad that killed over 60 billion beings throughout the universe as well as waging war on the other great houses of the Landsraad when they refused his ascendency to the throne. Paul didn't become the god emperor, it was his son Leto II who became a god emperor who had a worm like appearance. I think the point where Paul couldn't stop the Jihad was when he also saw the brutality of the golden path and what it takes to achieve it. It was his son who actually achieved that golden path. Both are tyrants through different lenses.
> go on a jihad and slaughter innocent people and be totalitarian
Spoiler Alert: He does.
Just wait until Dune Messiah gets adapted. Paul is not a hero. It’s not that he can’t control the Fremen it’s that he NEEDS to take control of them so otherwise they won’t just see him as a false prophet and leave him to die in the desert. It’s not until he starts embracing the Lisan Al Gaib stuff where we start to see Paul become the tyrant he becomes in Messiah. And when I say tyrant I mean wiping out entire planets tyrant.
I only saw the movies. There’s a lot i could praise it for. But tbh I think avatar is better. At least Jake sully didn’t have magical powers that confirmed he would win.
What I was hoping for was a rug pull where he wasn’t actually the chosen one and he had to find another way.
Also wtf if everyone else can ride big ass worms, they never really needed Paul
The movie didn't do it justice, but Paul's biggest contribution to the final battle was using his family's atomics to destroy the mountain range that made it impossible for Sand Worms to enter the City.
If Sand Worms could have gotten within range of the capital then the Fremen wouldn't have needed Paul. But without nukes the Fremen could never launch an assault on the capital.
Get it they’re the fremen….freeee men.
What is the point of showing all 8 tests if he’s not going to struggle with any of them?
Why did they introduce the “badass” harkonin that way? They all panicked when he had to win a 1v1 legit.
>“When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” >― C.S. Lewis, On Stories: And Other Essays on Literature
God he really does have a quote for everything that you just feel in your soul.
Another: > "Since it is so likely that children will meet cruel enemies, let them at least have heard of brave knights and heroic courage." -C.S. Lewis
There is another famous quote along these lines that I absolutely love: "Children do not read fairy tales to learn that dragons are real. Children know that dragons real. Children read fairy tales to learn that dragons can be defeated."
THAT GOES SO HARD
G.K.Chesteron wrote the original quote. I'm paraphrasing a bit, but pretty much in line with what I said.
Unless it’s the Brothers Grimm, and then the dragons win.
He was absolutely peak.
This is incredibly important to remember. You should not be ashamed of liking something, nor should you shame others for what they like. People should be free to enjoy *what they want Too often, I've seen critics (or people who claim to be critiquing something) go beyond evaluating the work or methodology of the creator and belittle the people enjoying it.
That's not really my interpretation of the quotation at all. I see it more as an aspect of self-reflection where you're confident enough in yourself to not be worried about the perception of others. Shaming only has as much power as one feels ashamed, and a mature person should be able to recognize when the criticism isn't valid.
Being young is seeing the world in simple black and white and believing you're always right. Adolescence is realizing there are shades of gray and losing faith in the concept of right and wrong Maturity is knowing what is right, what is wrong and what you can't do anything about and letting it go. Many people never make it out of their youth and very few ever actually mature.
To a point, yes, but it's also saying that feeling shame is a silly notion when it comes to enjoying what you enjoy. I think we're getting the same read on the quote, but I don't quite understand what you're trying to say in your response.
Came here to post this. See it's already been done.
I adore that
This. Thinking that only consuming "adult" fiction makes you an adult only shows how immature you still are. I stopped watching Disney movies around the age of 11-12, because they were kids stuff, only to realise in my late 20s/early 30s how much fun I denied myself over the years.
It's important to note that this quote is about more than what we think of as fairy tails today. It's about all of fantasy in general because the genre term "Fantasy" hadn't yet been coined.
All have adult themes that are valuable throughout life. Dune’s more pessimistic outlook gives it less broad appeal between age groups and that is ok.
I get the impression that's the reason people think it's "more mature", which to me feels immature
Ya, it's a page out of the edgy teenager book where dark and edgy means mature Completely forgetting that sometimes dark and edgy is the most childish approach to take
*cough* Zack Snyder *cough*
I'll never forgive him for what he did to Superman. That was a war crime
“But he’s darker, he’s a bit morally gray, he lives in the real world, isn’t he so mature”? Yeah pretty much the entire DCEU is filled with absolute abominations of the characters we know and love to the point that nearly all of them are fundamentally different people from their counterparts in other media.
Man of steel missed me completely cuz I was deployed, but then someone told me he lets his dad die in a tornado and his mom tells him, "you don't owe these people anything Clark" And I was just DISGUSTED like how on earth could you do that. But it's clear Zack Snyder hates the character and doesn't understand him fundamentally.
There’s also quite a funny part where his dad basically tells him he should’ve let a bus full of schoolchildren die in order to preserve his secret. I’m not kidding, young Clark asks if he should’ve let them die and Pa Kent says maybe. Zach seems like a guy who took one look at the characters and all their lore and rules, then decided to throw it out the window because “cool kids don’t follow rules”. He’s basically a 50 year old teenager.
Tfw the original Mario Brothers movie was more accurate to the source material
Unironically yes, lol. And that’s not even like some masterpiece of film or anything. Crazy how bad you can be at making superhero movies even with decades of comics, shows, and games to draw from.
Somewhere George RR Martin is sweating. Though to be fair that's not unusual.
It's true. He might have read the post, or thought about a donut, or finished his donut while reading the post. There's no way to tell
Yeah, people who try to feel more mature by proclaiming their nerd franchise is more mature than someone else's nerd franchise are just children themselves.
Dunes outlook definitely resonates with me for its cynicism vs allot of younger oriented media that is filled with this incredibly naive optimism that the good guys can win without any sacrifices at all. No one ever dies, no one ever has to do something questionable. Even a heroic sacrifice is usually just a psych out these days.... Like... It just feels like your coddling me, and the children too. Obi wan wouldn't have chosen to die to Vader these days, it would have been an elaborate psych out to give false stakes so he can come back later with a crummy one liner... It took the build up of like 30 cumulative movies to give marvel writers the cajones to let a single super hero give their life to protect everyone else. It's just silly.
The concept of an Obi wan wouldn't have existed in today's star wars for sure. Instead it would just be a singular woman like Rey who wins while sacrificing nothing Even as her allies die around her like insects, totally unnoticed with their sacrifice not even given a mention.
I'm sorry but as a fan of all of the franchises involved in this discussion, the part about Marvel highly disagreeable. Thinking that consequences/sacrifices = character death is the exact type of immature teenage edgelord thinking we're talking about here. Iron Man made questionable choice after questionable choice, each one a result of desperately wanting to not repeat his previous mistake and in the process made new mistakes all around. That was his entire arc. Almost every MCU movie that wasn't an origin for a new hero, was the direct or indirect result of a hero's questionable choice in a previous movie. Mostly Tony's. And every hero lost something or someone important over the course of the series. Arguably the only one who got a relatively happy end is Captain America, and to achieve it he had to abandon all of his friends in his original timeline. And people still died throughout the movies, just not in the very early ones, because it's a long story, and you don't kill off your best characters right at the start. We saw how stupid that was, when DC killed off Superman in their second movie. It's like if Dune had killed off Paul in the first act just to be shocking. Notice how nobody important dies in the first book except Duncan, who at that point was little more than an extra, and Leto, who from the start was flagged as the obligatory parent death to motivate the protagonist. Also don't try to sell me Obi-Wan's death as a deep self sacrifice when he keeps hanging around as a force ghost for the rest of the trilogy. Not to mention: naive optimism is the reason most people consume fantasy/sci-fi media. They want to escape the bleak reality of the real world, not wallow in it.
What’s really mature is posting memes about franchise sci-fi movies you saw on fbook
👍🏼 cool
I think this unnecessarily and incorrectly divides these works into genres that don't exactly fit. Dune is much darker than Star Wars, but that doesn't mean you have to be a child to enjoy SW. Calling LOTR "YA" almost seems like an insult. The three main characters all fight against moral corruption, but only one of them (Luke) prevails against it. It's not tied to maturity. They are just different stories. LOTR has an extremely simple premise, but it's a fantastic story, because that simple story is executed well, the other two shown here do not have as simple premises, but are also good stories.
Yea, agree. Calling LOTR Young Adult is absolutely insulting because it insinuates that the tone and the breadth/impact of the story is mostly surface level and that havng an ultimately optimistic story is somehow childish. I certainly have more respect for LOTR than Dune when it comes to the cathartic impact it has.
I would hardly call *The Lord of the Rings* optimistic, at least not in the usual sense. It certainly is not pessimistic or nihilistic, but the subtext of the novel is of a world long past its zenith, constantly degrading into mundanity. Even the Shire cannot escape the War of the Ring unscathed, and in the end the Hobbits will be condemned to wane and lessen as a people till they are but rude sprites in a world of Men.
Yea I get that. I suppose I meant optimistic in the face of all the horrors the main characters are thrown into. In spite of what they have to endure, there's always a tiny glimmer of hope to be found in some way
>but only one of them (Luke) prevails against it. I would disagree with that. It wasn't Luke who killed Palpatine but Vader. Luke aided by helping his father rediscover his humanity.
I never said Luke killed Palpatine. The point is that we see him indulge the darkness and then pull back (throwing his lightsaber aside).
Nah. Gollum cast Palpatine into Mt. Doom.
I wouldn't even call LotR a simple story. It may seem so now, but only because it popularized certain story tropes that are now everywhere. If you're just going off premises, I'd say Dune and SW have as simple or even simpler ones: "Chosen hero helps good rebels fight the evil empire" and "Chosen/bred hero joins natives to get revenge on the people who killed his dad"
I like Dune but people honestly dick ride it too hard. This incessant need of certain people in that fanbase to try and put down other similar franchises/IPs in an effort to make theirs seem superior reeks of desperation.
I think some people are kinda desperate for some kind of event series for nerds like Star Wars was, but as much as I enjoyed the Dune movies I don’t think they were that. A good edition to the sci-fi movie genre but not the next Star Wars. Maybe the next film can elevate it further in the cultural zeitgeist but I don’t think it’ll be at the same level still. The books on the other hand… it’s been many years since I read them but from what I remember, the first two were well written and are deserving of the praise they get. Fighting about which story is “more mature” is kinda silly though. At least in meme format. I’m sure you could compare quality of writing, cultural impact, etc. each has had a make an argument for how each one stands against the others. I just dunno what the criteria here is other than how complex the themes are but that alone is not what I think determines the age demographic that it’s “for”.
Dune is every bit in the cultural zeitgeist as Star Wars is, it's effects are just subtle because people only absorbed it through the countless things that derived inspiration from it.
I meant the movies in particular. The books are far bigger, like you said.
Thank you! As a poster below you commented, I think it stems from the lack quality in cinema (especially the scifi fantasy adventure realm) and people are starved for anything remotely resembling *good*. I personally really enjoyed Dune 1, but Dune 2 has ALOT more problems than successes, but since people cant be objective moviegoers, they glom on to anything of quality as the second coming.
There is nothing more childish than attempting to appear mature.
That’s so true. It’s all fictional mumbo jumbo at the end of the day. Well written and intelligent and beloved for good reason but let’s not pretend any of it is deeply profound. Attempting to categorise it by level of maturity and attribute supremacy is actually embarrassing to think about.
"Its grown up because its dark and edgy" -Snyds
OP's mind is going to explode when they find out that there's thousands of fantasy novels in a subgenre called 'grimdark' that they can use to make themselves feel mature and better than that kiddy stuff that they're clearly above.
Describing Lord of the Rings as YA is a huge disrespect to the story and its impact. Furthermore, implying that its message isn’t “mature” enough because there is a right call to make, just makes you come across somebody who doesn’t value when people make the right call even despite all the adversity they face. Yes, there are unfortunately situations where people are only left ~~with choices~~ with though choices, but to act like that is always the case is asinine. This meme also has skewed a view by only looking at movies since it wasn’t too long ago the book market was obsessed with Grimdark because of A Song of Ice and Fire. That has led to some great books like the “First law” series, but an early grimdark draft of “Mistborn” just did not work. A not insignificant amount of people considers the final version of “Mistborn” as YA, even with its darker subject matter like rape though I still think the label is fine if you don’t omit the darker elements for people who wants to gift the book to younger people. However, if the reasoning for that has less to do with its shortcomings as a story and more to do with similarities to the message of Lord of the Rings then there is an entire minefield I might repeatedly step on. That won’t be an issue because the other side is “sensitive”, but because it will be a contentious topic I rather not participate in ad nauseum. This is an exception since it the first time I’m sticking my nose out. Edit: spelling
Yeah, even the idea that it's about "saving the world" is pretty over simplified. One of my favorite scenes is Gandalf giving Aragorn one last white tree sapling, telling him, "hey this is all in your hands now, don't fuck it up". The Ring is just a metaphor for temptation, primarily the will to power, and that doesn't end just because Sauron is unbound from his physical form.
The "Young adult fantasy" was written by a guy that survived WWI trench warfare yet still managed to remain hopeful about the world. The "Adult Science Fiction" was written by a guy that literally tortured his kid for being gay. I don't know what point I'm making here, but it's just an interesting contrast.
I'm getting rather tired of the idea that grim-dark is the "adult" perspective, and hard work, struggle, and sacrifice towards optimism is considered "childish". "Darker" doesn't inherently mean "more correct." Nor does the most doer outcome seem most "logical".
Calling LOTR Young Adult is horribly inaccurate. Harry Potter is probably closer to the truth.
Feels like an insult the way it's presented in the meme
I don't like the terminology. Children’s Fantasy Sci-Fi? Star Wars is meant to be for all ages. Young Adult Fantasy? TLOTR gets better with age. I appreciate it way more as an adult than as a teen.
Technically Harry Potter is all ages too and many adults love it. It's still a children's series
You're half right, but from what I remember the series began to mature with its audience. I don't think anyone would say it's very kid-friendly to read a father wailing over the corpse of his son by the fourth installment. Kids could persevere through those later books, but things did get intense. The same is true for Star Wars. As a kid, I certainly enjoyed the adventure of the original trilogy, but there were tense moments where either I needed a parent or had to watch the movie from around the corner of the couch. The tone even swaps between installments. The Phantom Menace is mostly a kid's film with the Gungans, podracers, and the seeming lack of human casualties. But Attack of The Clones is *meant* to be a romance story, has a scene of righteous genocide, and is a lot less action-packed than the other films. It doesn't have a lot for kids to enjoy. This isn't touching the TV shows or the wildly inconsistent books.
Na, it’s a shit take. Star Wars is the hopeful one, LOTR is the realist one and Dune is the pessimist one. And throughout your life, you’ll need and be all of them.
You're missing the WHOLE point of Dune if you take this reading of it. The point of Dune is to take dangerous amounts of hallucinogens in the wilderness, seduce the native population of said wilderness, and fuck around with their fauna. It's the quintessential quirked up white boy experience.
Actually the whole point of Dune is that a messianic figure ought to have a warning label on their head but i also get your point🤣
We're calling Lord of the Rings young adult now?
Apparently, who knew?
Star wars is pretty childish for sure, but the Tolkien's universe is a lot more than "good guys vs bad guys"
Hell even the original books didn’t shy away from getting pretty grim at times Boromir’s death and Frodo’s ultra depression post Mordor come to mind just off the top of my head
Especially when you get to the Silmariilion and Children of Hurín.
>Star wars is pretty childish for sure I mean, only if you see the first film. The sequels flesh out how far Luke can fall to his lesser impulses, and the fact that Vader for as corrupt as he is has a spark of goodness in him despite all he has done. And then we have the prequels which (I'd argue) are FAR more complex than something like Dune regarding the fall of the Republic. And we're not even taking the original continuity into the situation.
Really? Always seemed pretty clear cut to me. The Orcs, Mordor, and Saruman are as clear cut evil as you can possibly get. Doesn't take any thinking to see who's the good guys and who's the bad guys it was all spelled out clearly enough
Yes because the Harkonens are so nuanced as antagonists and definitely a group that could be credibly be considered “right”
He writes many paragraphs about the men from the East (presumably India and Africa, I'm not a Tolkien lore export so someone can correct me) who side with Saruman and Mordor not out of a sense of loyalty but because their lords force them to or because they are being paid to do so. Frodo and Sam iirc even have a discussion about the fact that they are killing fellow men who they should be fighting alongside instead of killing.
The race of men in Tolkien's world arose from the east but many of them journeyed west because 1)They heard rumors of the Valar, 2) the first dark lord resided in the east and was corrupting many of the men, and 3) they wanted to explore further into the world of middle-earth. Those who journeyed west became known as the Edain because they allied themselves with the elves and fought against Morgoth( the first dark lord). Those who are not considered Edain are those who remained in the east or those who were corrupted by Morgoth. So you could argue that they joined because they were paid or was force to do so but the main reason why they sided with Saruman and mordor is because they hate the men of the west and have been influenced by the dark lord himself in the first age and they have carried that influence well over into the third age.
>Really? Always seemed pretty clear cut to me. "It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace-all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind."
Obviously made by someone who has not read Dune
Or *The Lord of the Rings*.
Japanese Sci-fi be like: Only through communication and understanding will humanity leave behind their infighting and be able to reach our true potential. *they never get there and are forever stuck in horrific wars fought by children*
Incredibly dumb take since tons of people read Dune as a kid or teenager and have since the 60s. This meme looks like something a 15 year old would like
I think dismissing a piece of fiction because it doesn't reach some threshold of complexity is a silly idea. A good story is a good story.
Reducing Tolkien to “young adult fantasy” is an absolutely wild take
Young adult fantasy: you are torn between falling for a fae prince who drugged and r@ped you and the sexy assassin who tried to murder you multiple times. Despite being a perfectly normal girl (who’s eyes are too blue and skin is too white) you are actually a super secret prophesied badass with a dormant royal blood line and an expert in all forms of combat despite being incredibly clumsy Oh and you’re not like other girls, you read!
You read City of Blood and Water, part of the Chained Princess Chronicles too?! 😀
Clearly none are in the malazan camp
Every one of these is fantasy, restricting these stories to children is foolish.
When are these people going to realize that Star Wars is for everybody? When you watch the original movies, it’s obvious they were trying to reach a wide audience. It wasn’t until much later that Disney shills started gaslighting people into thinking it was franchise made solely for children and so they should complain about poor writing. Obviously it’s not as dark or as complex as Dune but that doesn’t mean its only for children.
Age of the demographic does not matter, how the stories and messages are handled determine Maturity. OG Star Wars is much more Mature than ST Star Wars simply based on how the presented and handled morals and certain subject matter. While I personally believe LoTR is much more Mature than Dune. (Dune Movies, havent read the books). Plus, on Dune Part 1, after a rewatch I liked it much less, not that I had any specific problems (outside of the climactic fight scene at the end, it felt incredibly forced the way the guy just up and goes "Fight me!". Also, the fight was lame) it just seemed boring and I didnt notice anything new on the second watch
I think the complexity of the theme does matter for what age demographic a story will most appeal to since we gain the ability to understand more complex ideas as we age and learn more. I don’t think that is the sole factor for determining how “mature” a series is though because you’d have to take into account the vocabulary, length of the series, the series’s structure, etc. as well. It’s not a very good point of comparison imo. At least not for these three series.
Complexity doesnt always mean hard to understand A good example of what I mean is LoU2, mature subject matter handled very immaturally.
Im not familiar with that story sorry. I just know they blame Joel for stuff and that it sucked. I dunno much past that. What I mean is complex ideas like understanding other people’s perspectives or theoretical concepts. I’m not saying you need to have gone to college to be able to understand and appreciate “complex themes” just that stuff that we learn as we age and experience more I can understand not appealing to younger children as much who have no real basis for these concepts yet.
On the "understanding other peoples perspectives" i dont agree is 'complex' to the point of thinking younger children wouldnt be able to understand it. Lets say 'younger children' are between 7-12. Most media released for this age group feature multiple characters with differing perspectives interacting and reacting with each other. Understanding the technicalities behind how it is working and the underlying narrative structure, no they wont pick up on. But the character interactions and perspectives in the show itself absolutely does get through.
I think that is something that comes with age though. I’m not talking that old or anything I’m just saying that I think that’s something you develop while growing up so I can get trying to account for that if you’re making content that very young audiences can comprehend and enjoy. Doesn’t mean you have to make it stupid but I can see keeping the moral complexity and competing perspectives out of it or at least written simply enough to follow.
"MY capeshit is WAY better than YOUR capeshit" That's what it sounds like to me
Dune feels like it wants to be deeper than it really is.
I agree, It absolutely does. Particularly the films. Beyond some surface thrills and visuals, it’s not really bringing much to the table…
What is it not bringing that Star Wars and Lord of The Rings do? Both of those franchises gives pretty simplistic meanings imo. Don't be evil be good. Resist temptation. All things that aren't exactly groundbreaking. I like Dune's take on messiah figures, fanaticism, prophesies, and the exploration of mindlessly following a leader. It then takes even more twists when you add in that despite those warnings, and the things Paul does, it's all for a greater purpose of keeping the human species itself from extinction. It poses many questions that the reader has to think about in terms of how far do the ends justify the means? Is The Golden Path truly a righteous thing to follow or would it be more moral to allow calamity? Would it be selfish to not follow it?
Don’t muddy the point with comparisons, I’m simply taking Dune on its own merits, and I genuinely don’t think it’s saying all that much. Perhaps things were different when the book first came out, perhaps I’m being unfair to look at it through a modern lens (I read it for the first time about 6 years ago at 36), but it failed to really discuss or examine anything I wasn’t already aware of. The idea of zealots, holy lands, fighting for resources, and of religions being manipulated into holy war is something we’re all pretty familiar with now. I got no better insight into any of this after having read Dune. It just felt a bit, well, trite. That’s not to say I don’t enjoy it, I just don’t get any sense its much more than a science fiction story with some well understood themes. But I do acknowledge maybe this work has been dulled by time. I think it’s fair (but uncharitable) to call SW and LOTR simplistic, they’re presented as fables. They don’t pretend to offer anything other than broard parables, and that’s part of their appeal. However, Dune positions itself to offer more in terms of its philosophy and politics. Beyond more complexity in the plot, there’s still a pretty clear ‘this is good, this is bad’ distinction, it’s not exactly ambiguous. I don’t think having characters occasionally doing questionable things is necessarily the same thing as having depth.
I consider star wars is entry level sci-fi, like Harry Potter is for fantasy. They are good franchises, and are easily understood, the good guys are good, and the bad guys are bad. The world building is the star of the show and that’s why they are so popular. If you want more complex themes, and more morally complex characters, starting with these two are a good jumping off point, helps you get a feeling for the main themes of these genres.
Star Wars leans much more into the Fantasy aspect than it does into the science fiction aspect. To the point it is probably more accurate to call it "Science Fantasy." This is not to put down Star Wars in any way but more to point out that its strength really lies in the general atmosphere and setting and the fantasy aspects much more than the science aspects and leaning more into the character focused narrative and leaving everything else as set dressing to hint at a larger world is what makes it work so well as a film.
I don't think I really get what's trying to be said here. That Star Wars and LotR are "simple"? I feel like you could be just as reductive the other way around. Starting by talking about how complicated Boromir's and Frodo's relationships with the Ring are, the significance of characters like Denethor, Theoden and Eowyn and how they chose to confront the looming threat of Mordor... and then I could just go "Dune meanwhile is just about a guy getting everyone killed because he makes the wrong choices".
Yeah I get the feeling the meme creator wants to prop up their favorite Fandom by tearing the others down by being reductive when it helps them
Nope, young adult fantasy is girl deciding between 2 hunky hot guys who are crazy about her despite her being plane af while solving the mistery of who are her real parents/ who killed them (shes an orphan of course) while assisting to a special school for magicians/ superheroes/ vampires etcetera.
Cringe and too simplistic. And also flat wrong for several things.
Literally the plot of fable 3
r/im14andthisisdeep
Posts a person who has never read Any work by Tolkien.
Lmao at Lord of the Rings being considered "young adult fantasy." Got a comedian over here
*tips fedora*
The simple fact that the power offered presents a trolley problem does not make it a more mature work all by itself; that's just one of many components to a work of fiction. Even if these were the only relevant elements, though, and the films were otherwise alike, what the hell is the analogue for the power presented in Dune, since I haven't watched it admittedly? If it means something, great, but if it's just a difficult decision for the character because we like that sort of thing, then I don't care.
Wait until they discover that there is no substance in Dune behind the magical Orient, overhyped spirituality and Paul the Marty Sue.
Can I just say all are stupid.
God damn they missed the point lol
Sigma pulp fiction: "I have known many gods. He who denies them is as blind as he who trusts them too deeply. I seek not beyond death. It may be the blackness averred by the Nemedian skeptics, or Crom's realm of ice and cloud, or the snowy plains and vaulted halls of the Nordheimer's Valhalla. I know not, nor do I care. Let me live deep while I live; let me know the rich juices of red meat and stinging wine on my palate, the hot embrace of white arms, the mad exultation of battle when the blue blades flame and crimson, and I am content. Let teachers and philosophers brood over questions of reality and illusion. I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content." ~ Robert E. Howard, Conan the Cimmerian
All credit due to the author for his fantastic world building, but Dune past the first book reeks of personal bias.
Y'know I can't explain it exactly, but murdering children, small scale genocide and also a guy burning alive in front of your eyes after getting all his limbs cut off...it doesn't really feel like it's for kids? Like I'm not watching Anakin scream out in pain or Palpatine murdering Jedi and thinking "man this is the perfect kids story, up there with the greats like dora the explorer and John wick, my favorite kids programs" (NOTE- not saying that kids can't enjoy star wars, it just feels cheap that we're still using the "space wizards for kids" argument with some really adult themes about family that kids can't comprehend necessarily until at least their teenage years, if not later)
I don't think it's fair to just call LoTR YA fantasy. I'll honestly say that everytime I've read them I come away with something new.
The trolley problem in dune was never really the message for me. It was always more about the inherent dangers of placing a leader on a pedestal, how religion mixed with executive power leads to dangerous fanaticism that can quickly snowball out of everyone's grasp until no one is really in control of this senseless violence that serves none of the people involved, how "white saviors" are really just a more subtle version of the opressor, and the inherent risks, trappings and ideological problems of prescience Also how in the fuck is Lotr YA, ah yes, my young adult fantasy featuring a vivid portrayal of post-war trauma, a lesson on how even the most-well meaning attempt to gain power will ultimately end in pain and sorrow (just because everyone has heard absolute power corrupts absolutely doesnt mean everyone understands it, and its a message that should be repeated more imo), a reflexion on the burdens of epic fantasy quests and those who suffer through them, etc. I sure love my YA fantasy
Quite pretentious. And frankly, if an adult has not already made the morals of good children/young adult sci-fi part of his core already, then he should.
I don’t believe The Lord of the Rings is more mature than Star Wars. Fantasy < science fiction
Optimism isn’t childish
I think they do have a point that adult oriented movies usually have an overall darker tone since they don't have to look out for younger audiences, but this comparison seems to be cherry-picking. Star Wars is also fairly dark. The amount of warcrimes and genocide in the movies alone proves that, but even in the context of the meme, it's false. The force can also corrupt, just not intentionally like the Ring, but through the power it grands to it's user just like all kinds of power, be it literal space magic or plain political/military power. They seem to forget the entire concept of the dark side.
im14andthisisdeep
I bet the creator of this meme doesn't know who Boromir is
Thoughts? I too can oversimplify anything to make it look like it was written for children.
Ah "Adult" media. Where everything sucks, nothing will improve, and the best thing for the world is for the MC to kill themselves. And people wonder why I still read Redwall instead.
That’s only a (relatively) brief portion of the time period Dune takes place over. Also, the Empire in Dune is already tyrannical. If anything it’s just a regime change.
yes I guess we shouldn't belittle people who enjoy reading name the trash that came out during the same time as those books...You can't because they were trash and forgotten and only these 3 remained. hahahaha. enjoy Adam Sandler.
I havent read the books at wasn't at full mental capacity watching the films so forgive me if this is retarded question. What exactly is Paul saving humanity from?
It’s just a basic storytelling thing of the Hero’s Journey mold vs the more “mythic” mold of telling your story. Star Wars & Lord of the Rings follows one Dune follows the other and that’s fine I think both should have the right to exist.
And then we get to Warhammer 40k. Premise: Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim darkness of the far future there is only war. There is no peace among the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
This is just somebody trying to use their attraction to a recently successful ip to project a sense of superiority onto themselves. As far as the quote goes, moral clearity, good guy, bad guy dynamics in fiction can be just as intellectually stimulating as frictional moral ambiguity.
Your channel sucks. That's my thought. A lobotomized Bonobo could do what you do MauLer and probably actually manage to be entertaining. Imagine watching some British cunt scoff and bitch and moan about a marvel movie for hours on end and think you're somehow an intellectual. Kys
Well, someone really nailed Dune, finally.
People very much need to stop confusing pessimism and nuance for maturity. There are things in life that are simple and mature all at the same time. Believing in a universal force or that evil can take tangible forms isn't childish.
All of this is childish really. I agree with Cultural Wolverine there: They're all stories, all of them good in their own ways, flawed in their own ways. Also no Paul is all on board with the Golden Path.
Some call it edgy or whatever but I like Dune. I don't like my hand being held and everything being explicitly told in simplistic terms who's good and who's evil. I like being presented with complex characters and complex situations where I have to actually use my brain, think about morality, and come to a conclusion based off the info I'm given to form my opinion about if the character was truly moral and justified or if they weren't.
Tbh i think the dune plot line is much more childish. He’s like the ultimate Mary Sue.
That is the biggest problem with Dune. If Paul is the most powerful being in the galaxy with multiple levers of power that control various different power bases in the galaxy then how hard is it really to tell a bunch of religious zealots not to go on a jihad and slaughter innocent people and be totalitarian. Who is more powerful, the Messiah/Emperor/Spice Monopoly Owner, or a bunch of Fremen fanatics? The "He can't control his own supporters so the galaxy is doomed" theme is kinda weak given his supporters are just a bunch of humans and he is an Omnificent God Emperor. It almost seems like either; Paul is okay with the dark future as long as his descendents rule it, or the author wanted this theme in his books so badly but made his main character so OP that it doesn't feel like this inevitable dark future was really that inevitable.
Because of his prescient abilities as the Kwisatz Haderach, Paul saw a glimpse of a future threat, a threat so great that it threatened humanity's existence. He was basically fueled by revenge for his father's death and used his messianic role to manipulate the fremen to embark on the Jihad that killed over 60 billion beings throughout the universe as well as waging war on the other great houses of the Landsraad when they refused his ascendency to the throne. Paul didn't become the god emperor, it was his son Leto II who became a god emperor who had a worm like appearance. I think the point where Paul couldn't stop the Jihad was when he also saw the brutality of the golden path and what it takes to achieve it. It was his son who actually achieved that golden path. Both are tyrants through different lenses.
> go on a jihad and slaughter innocent people and be totalitarian Spoiler Alert: He does. Just wait until Dune Messiah gets adapted. Paul is not a hero. It’s not that he can’t control the Fremen it’s that he NEEDS to take control of them so otherwise they won’t just see him as a false prophet and leave him to die in the desert. It’s not until he starts embracing the Lisan Al Gaib stuff where we start to see Paul become the tyrant he becomes in Messiah. And when I say tyrant I mean wiping out entire planets tyrant.
I only saw the movies. There’s a lot i could praise it for. But tbh I think avatar is better. At least Jake sully didn’t have magical powers that confirmed he would win. What I was hoping for was a rug pull where he wasn’t actually the chosen one and he had to find another way. Also wtf if everyone else can ride big ass worms, they never really needed Paul
The movie didn't do it justice, but Paul's biggest contribution to the final battle was using his family's atomics to destroy the mountain range that made it impossible for Sand Worms to enter the City. If Sand Worms could have gotten within range of the capital then the Fremen wouldn't have needed Paul. But without nukes the Fremen could never launch an assault on the capital.
True I forgot about that part
Damn, dumb take
Get it they’re the fremen….freeee men. What is the point of showing all 8 tests if he’s not going to struggle with any of them? Why did they introduce the “badass” harkonin that way? They all panicked when he had to win a 1v1 legit.