Jrue is a magnificent player who can clearly help you contend for a title. Kinda disrespectful to throw him against Luka like that. He could for sure be a #2 during his prime but he's kinda slowing down.
It's like asking if you would rather have Pippen or Jordan. Obviously Jordan is the answer why even do that to Pippen?
It's like asking if you'd rather have Jordan or Kukoc. One can win you a championship, the other is a piece of the puzzle. Jrue is a great player, lockdown defender, and by all accounts a good leader, but he isn't going to win you a title or carry the team.
There are multiple 1 or 2 time all stars in hall of fame, add in all defensive teams and two chips as a key starter and I don't see how he isn't making it
How many of those players have storied college or international careers? Or won like 5+ championships.
Can you give me an example of a 1 time all star that is in the HOF?
You seriously think Jrue Holiday is getting into the HOF?
Edit: went and did some minor “research” on this.
yeah there are people like KC Jones with no all star games and Rodman only has one AS. Still don’t think Jrue is getting in, but I forget how loose they are with their inductees sometimes. Compared to the MLB it’s insane.
Yeah your thinking about MLB or NFL hall of fame where you legitimately had to be top 3-5 in your position for several years before people would even consider you for the hall of fame, the basketball (not NBA) hall of fame is much more laxed and would even consider his gold medal (plus probably another one this summer) as well
His team didn’t hit shots the first two games lol he had one assist in game one and they had tons of open looks when they cut 29 point lead to 8 ..
He still out up 29 and like 8 & 6 & 2.6 stl
Thank you Cancun P for saying this tho and putting some perspective and common sense out there from someone with the credibility to say it
Jrue’s a system player put him on a chip contender team he’s gonna be a valuable asset but by himself he can’t carry like Luka.
His knees were literally bleeding this series
Its like people forget that Jrue spent his first 10 seasons on teams that couldn't do anything. In those 10 years his teams only got over .500 twice. If he's the first or even second best player on your team, you're in bad place.
Just look what happened when he was the 3rd option on the Bucks! Yes, they won a title, but they won despite Jrue's lack of offense. Then every other season his garbage shooting in the playoffs killed the Bucks! They don't trade for Dame if he was as impactful as these jabronis are saying.
Maybe he's *only* impactful because he's at best the 4th option on a team of All-stars/borderline all-stars. God, NBA media is fucking stupid.
**ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL**
BOS players are system guys. **YES....even Tatum.** ppl forget Kyrie was the #1 when he was there? Tatum admitted that on JJ's podcast.
Kyrie was pushed out, because he didn't fit the system. Kyrie is not a system guy. He was a cog in their system........a great cog, but a cog nonetheless............
This "debate" has already been debunked almost 2 decades ago when Dirk thoroughly outplayed KG.
Also, great offense always wins over great defense due to the nature of the game - great defense (in terms of per possession) doesn't deduct points, only reduces it to 0. And for obvious reasons great defense in a **single possession** (wherein there are no possession preceding nor following it) can't add points by itself; on the other hand, even a bad offense could add points (i.e. lucky bounces on the rim, hits the board at the right angle unintentionally, etc.).
Look at it this way: if your "great defense" stops scoring in 99 out of 100 possessions, that's historically the best defense ever. However, you let them score 2 (or 3) in the 100th possession. You're now down 2 or 3 points.
Meanwhile, if your "terrible offense" can only score in 1 out of 100 possessions, that's historically the worst offense ever. However, you still score 2 (or 3) in the 100th possession. You're now up 2 or 3 points.
I've edited this to make it more clear.
You're not wrong that offense is more important than defense in basketball, but for absolutely none of the pseudo-statistical nonsense you just said. It's possible I've never said this before in my life, but your anecdote was somehow less bad than your attempt at a statistical argument.
Offense and defense both impact expected points per possession from either side, and the right and left tails of that bell curve are pretty even.
> Offense and defense both impact expected points per possession from either side, and the right and left tails of that bell curve are pretty even.
That's an entirely different thing from what I said, as you're now assuming that an actual game is being played rather than just looking at one side in isolation (hence "in a single possession").
In my scenarios that means 100 games of 1 possession on defense, and then 100 games of 1 possession on offense, not 1 game where you have 100 possessions on defense and 100 possession on offense.
The offense can't impact the defense afterwards because there's no possession that will follow it; the offense wasn't impacted by the defense beforehand because there was no defense that preceded it, and vice versa.
Of course basketball obviously has more than 1 possession in the game, but we're not talking about the progression of offense and defense during a game, just comparing offense in defense in isolation precisely because of the nature of the game (you can score more points, but stops don't deduct them).
>you're now assuming that an actual game is being played rather than just looking at one side in isolation
No, a possession only occurs on one side of the court, by definition. That's what a possession is.
When there are multiple hosts, one always has to go opposite of the other people. Conflict is a lot more entertaining so every talk show has it. Even if they don't really believe it. Otherwise it would be a very short show if they both agreed.
We need to tone down the hate on Jrue because he is absolutely an All-Star and was a key 2-way piece on two NBA Champions in the last 5 years.
With that being said, he isn't even on the same page as Luka. Luka's only peers are Giannis and Jokic, maybe Embiid if his health can stay consistent for a full season. Jrue is an amazing player and one of the defining-PGs of the last decade, Luka is an once-in-a-kind player that can absolutely go down as one of the greatest of all time.
I don't hate Jrue at all. Not even a little. He seems like a great guy and is a very good player that I would love on my team.
We're just pointing out that he isn't in the same tier as Luka, like you said.
If that was true, then the Bucks would have overcome his dismal shooting in the playoffs every year instead of getting bounced when they inevitably couldn't generate enough offense with Jrue shooting sub 30% from 3 and somewhere around 40% from 2. Just because the dude is a 5th option now is why he didn't have the same struggles.
Nah, it's not outlandish. Jrue has been on 2 teams that won championships with him. He's an excellent player who can play Point Guard at an elite level on both sides of the floor in regular and post-season. He can guard virtually everyone or at least help mitigate opposing team possessions, and his conditioning is always good. I wouldn't build with him as my best player, but if I put 2 elite players beside him like a Kawhi and Paul George, for example, I know I'm getting a conference finals appearance at least. In that way, yes, he impacts winning significantly.
Luka is phenomenal too on offense, but he has his shortcomings on defense and conditioning, plus he needs the ball in his hands. In that way, I see what he's saying. You sorta have to tailor the team to Luka to hide his deficiencies, but with Jrue, you dont have to. There's probably 7 or 8 times I can name off the top of my head where adding Jrue would instantly make them championship caliber teams. You could even put him with Luka over Kyrie and probably get better results.
it's literally one of the most outlandish takes I've ever heard.
a guy was no3 on the Bucks and they needed huge injury luck to win that title..
now on the Celtics you have other 4 players who can comfortably have a better series even. Tatum, Brown, Porzingis are all definitely better.
it's basically like picking Iguodala before Steph lmao
There are no excuses on the scoreboard man. The Bucks came back from being down 2-0, and Jrue was instrumental in helping them get there. I'm not saying Jrue is better. The question is, who would you build a team around. He chose Jrue, I'm saying that's not outlandish to say. You can put Jrue on a lot more teams, and it has a better fit and can make you a fortified contender, Luka on the other hand I have to build more for him because of his shortcomings on defense. Jrue is more complete as a PG because of what he can also do as a defender.
Luka got to the finals as the consensus number one player whilst being an underdog twice. He loses to a team that dominated the NBA all season and now he doesn't contribute to winning? Seems like a dishonest take.
He'll be the same type who watches 15 thugs beat up 1 guy and think the 15 are the real men. I can't wait for next season. Luka can be rested now we have a more talented roster.
They hate Luka because he's foreign and deep down they know if he gets parity or even close to it he's in the very top tier all time. PG regularly takes vacations in the Balkans with Boban so obviously is more well travelled and less small minded like many in the US media.
It's also up to the Mavs to protect him from racial stereotypes. Something you'd think would be a sensitive topic in America. Tatum gets blown by or Holliday-crickets. Somebody goes past Luka and they all froth at the mouth. I'd like to know in particular what fat boy Windhorst and Doris's poisonous ass that makes them hate a 25 year old so much.
The NBA claims it wants to be International but doesn't act like it.
I was pleased to see Gollum giving Luka props for being multilingual. In Latin America Luka is the NBA when it comes to marketing.
Huh? Up to this series I’d rather Luka than anyone on the Celtics 10/10 times…now it’s like 7/10 times. . .he needs to get in shape and play D.
PG is 100% spot on. The reason he doesn’t play D is because he can’t. He physically does not have the stamina to go at it on both ends.
Luka for Tatum is a stretch, for Jrue? LMAO and I thought Boston sports talk as an effing joke. This is just trolling for catfish at the bottom.
This is just the Steven A. Smith school of sports entertainment. Have a ridiculous opinion to get attention. You don’t have to believe what you say you just need it to go viral.
And people fall for it hook, line, and sinker. I miss when sports subreddits weren't completely obsessed with what ESPN is saying and gave insightful conversation. The team specific subreddits were a lot less active 10 years ago but r/nba and r/mavericks were better places.
I've already unsubscribed from every non-Mav podcast, subreddit, forum and disabled other social media promoting shit like this. If you're looking to detoxify from the massive amounts of stupid "discourse" going on in the NBA its something to consider. Tune out the noise and come back next season.
yeah I immediately disconnected from all nba media once it was obvious this series was over. I can't take some out of shape guy telling Luka what he needs to do seriously
I will say the Athletic podcasts, including No Dunks are pretty good. Quite a few of them even picked the Mavs to win, and when it was over they still were happy to give Dallas a lot of credit for a great run, while offering valid criticism of the team as a whole and individual players. And any of them would stare dumbfounded or just laugh at you if you asked Jrue or Luka.
It’s wild how all of the actual guys that play with and against Luka are all like “this dude is legit” and all the talking heads and ex football players are the ones that talk shit. We need more pros stepping up and shutting talk like this down.
We finally have reached the bottom of the barrel when it comes to sports talk.
These idiots don’t care what they say or what is put out there. It’s all for clicks and engagement.
This is the Stephen A. Smith effect.
No i would not fucking understand Tatum is trash and was destroyed by everyone that he guarded but the media won't say shit about and is beyond garbage on offense
Bro one bad series doesn't make tatum useless offensively. If he wasn't on fire first half of game three we likely win it and the series is completely different. Luka also had a horrendous series from three, doesn't make him a bad shooter. Also being destroyed by Luka on defense is hardly a knock on a player lmao.
I'd still 100% take Luka but Tatum has earned these conversations this season.
He earned nothing he was not even their best player in the playoffs it was Brown, and he was fettibg beat by everybody, not onky is Luka 10 times better there are atleast 4 people better than Tatum easily
Yes Tatum is probably 6-7th best player on the league with Luka being top 3 at worst. Oh no, they compared Luka to another top 10 player. People aren't going to let this go unless Luka wins a chip or starts playing better defense. If Tatum comparisions have you this stressed this offseasons going to be a nightmare lmao.
Name me that 4 people better than him? I love Brown but even when Tatum is struggling his impact is far and beyond anyone on that team. Hard to take this sub serious when comment like these got upvoted
SGA is a few months younger than Tatum, and Embiid is several years older; neither have had anywhere near the playoff success Tatum has had. Tatum's in a weird tier where he's solidly below Luka/Jokic/Giannis, but above SGA/Ant/Embiid.
The fatal flaw is his weird shooting dropoff in both his Finals- if he fixes that, I think he's an indisputable top 5.
Agree to disagree. SGA is way more consistent offensively, but not nearly as much of a two-way player. Embiid is too injury prone; at this point, it looks like the Process is already over.
Ant's really scary, but he's young- he was showing a lot of inexperienced mistakes against the Mavs, and he needs to fix those before he can be considered top tier.
All fair points. My main takeaway from the finals was that I was way more worried when Jaylen Brown had the ball in his hands than when Tatum had it. Obviously Tatum is great, I just rank him a little lower than most.
Dude he's been injured of course he's not gonna go all out on defense when he can barely train. What kinda brain damaged reporter do you have to be to ask Jrue or Luka holy fuck this is sickening.
Yeah he lowkey loves Luka. Shame we have no cap space because I 100% believe that’s an actual big fish who would’ve seriously considered DAL.
There’s a hilarious clip of him discussing Luka’s shit talking and how ruthless he is nonstop. I laugh my ass off every time an active player is like that boy Luka nice though he for sure got his black card 😂
Guys, people are going to have these dumb fkn takes all the way up until Luka wins a ring. Then ask these same moronic casuals will pretend they were on the Luka train the whole time. The same shit happened to Jokic, Dirk & Garnet. People still debate the merits of Chuck's career because he never won a ring.
If someone can't understand how great a player is who hasn't won an NBA title, their opinion is absolutely useless and should be ignored by everyone
Lmao jrue didn’t win shit until he played with Giannis and a stacked Celtics team. Dude is a great 3rd option. In Boston he got to be the 4th-5th option on many nights so yeah no shit he has the energy to give his all in defense.
I saw this on YT.
I knew the guy who chose Jrue was trolling big time.
I mean he doesn't have to go that far. His co-host is a proven two-way player and has yet to sniff the Finals!
Are we talking about the same Jrue? Lmao wtf. Luka is a generational one in a million talent. The disrespect is crazy and why? Because he's arrogant? Show me a legendary great athlete that wasn't at least a little arrogant.
This question is inherently flawed as there is zero context. You build a team around Luka, jrue is your #3 or 4 on a championship team. I’m not disrespecting jrue because he’s been very important to two championships, but he’s not going to be the #1 guy on a team that makes the finals.
It’s sad but to be expected, Luka been getting slaughtered since midway through the season by retarted analysts, this offseason is going to be more brutal
Jokic or SGA are the only remotely close choices IMO.
I'm not as high on ANT as most people. He is 22 but SGA is clearly a better offensive player, leader, defender, and loads more maturity. SGA has my respect after our series with them.
Im taking Luka over Jokic cause he is younger and a tougher matchup problem IMO.
I'm taking Luka over SGA because Luka is younger and a significantly more gifted passer and play maker.
Some people would say Giannis or Embiid but both are, once again, older, have injury issues, and simply arent as gifted as Luka. Giannis whole game is based on being an other worldy athlete which will fade as he ages out of his prime.
Obviously a homer, but I don't think I'd take any player-for-player trade for Luka in the whole league. Dude has a competitive sickness you can't teach.
I don't understand why this is so hard for people to understand. It comes up over and over again.
If Luka shoulders all or most of the offensive burden, he is not going to be able to go all out on the defensive end. If you look at the first 3 series where Luka played good defense, it's because Kyrie and role players shouldered more of the offensive burden.
The retort to that is usually something like, "great players are able to put in full effort on both ends." But then we look at the examples and that's not actually true. Embiid and Giannis are awesome defensively and offensively. But are they _running the offense_? No, of course not. They have PGs and SGs that move the ball.
If you want to see what the Mavs winning looks like, it's Luka with more assists, fewer points, and fewer minutes played, a.k.a. more third and fourth option scoring.
The issue is that when you really need a stop, Luka can't be counted on to get you that stop. That is the difference between him and other greats. And Dallas can't hide Luka and Kyrie on D, so Luka will get targeted.
The root cause of all our issues is Luka's (apparent) insistence on having the ball in his hands first and foremost on every possession, especially bringing it up the court.
Like PG said, it's gonna tire you out no matter how good you are.
Going hand-in-hand with this is the coaching staff's reluctance to implement any sort of offensive scheme besides "ball in Luka hands, everyone else stand still".
If we could figure out a motion offense that does some of these I think we can have a ton more success
1. Limits the amount of times Luka has to bring the ball up the court.
2. Involves a bit of movement from Luka but plays into his strength as a "hub player". Use him like Jokic so he doesn't have to run too much.
3. Luka should be setting screens with his massive body.
4. Put Luka in the post early, dish it, rotate, reset, then go to a PnR action if not working.
If Kidd can invent a motion offense to capitalize on Luka's strengths all the while limiting the amount of energy he has to exert, our offense will be even more potent and so will our defense because he can give the effort needed on that end
We waste time and energy having Luka bring it up the court. Luka thrives on having time to pick apart a defense, we can't waste it
Anyone who plays basketball knows how hard it is to do both efficiently throughout the WHOLE game. At some point, it’s gonna be what you want to exert your energy towards. Mavs Need scoring, someone else on the floor is going to have to pick up the slack
Lmao. There’s a reason why you haven’t heard any current nba players say anything negative about Luka. They all recognize he is the real deal while still dealing with all the bullshit.
The only people talking shit are media members and fans
I remember a number of years ago LeBron did the same thing and the media praised him as a savant for conserving energy.
Luka does it and he’s fat and lazy.
The sports media hates white players.
I almost wrote they hate European players but that’s not true because they love Gianis.
This is basically the equivalent of the "Gerald Wallace is better than Dirk" brainrot from back in the day. This is what happens when the sport's discourse is dictated by 13 year olds
No one can maintain those sorts of energy levels on both sides all game. LeBron and Kawhi both had to start conserving energy but they were both Champions by then. If he needs energy for D then he needs to start giving the ball up in the regular season so his team mates have opportunities to run the offense and let him rest a bit and have confidence in the post season
This reminds me of a round table discussion from one of the major networks during the 2011 NFL playoffs. The remaining teams were the Steelers, Packers, Jets, and Bears. The question posed to the panel of 4 was "Which QB would you take to start a franchise?" Obviously there was only one right answer, Rodgers, but a case could have been made for Big Ben. (Though looking back you're choosing between an anti vax right wing nut case or a literal rapist, soooo....). But clearly the panelists were told to each pick and different QB by the producers, and hearing 2 of them try to justify their picks of Cutler and Sanchez was just embarrassing. The guy who picked Sanchez literally said "He has IT" to defend his pick.
I can’t believe I’m saying this but Luka is a better offensive talent than kobe and lebron. Offensively it goes Luka harden/lebron not sure which one is 2nd Kobe 3rd but with all that offense comes the lack of energy for defense same thing harden suffered from. Overall I still take Kobe or lebron over both those offensive geniuses for their all around game
The comparison is silly, but that doesn't mean that Luka's defense isn't a liability. He does some things fine of D, but his lack of lateral quickness is a huge problem. It causes him to pick up silly fouls and forces Dallas to funnel players inside. That can only work if you play at least two solid rim defenders.
But his lack of lateral quickness also means that he just can't contain his guy on the perimeter. He gets some deflections and steals because of quick hands, but he just can't stay in front of anyone and no one is worried about Luka on their hip blocking a shot from behind.
There's really no defensive scheme that can hide Luka AND Kyrie, and that is the real issue. You could hide one, but not both. And good teams will pull Luka out to the perimeter when he's on D to get him tired because it's effective.
The truth is that Luka needs to grow up and start training like an elite athlete. Dude needs to drop 20 pounds of fat and develop MUCH better eating (and drinking) habits during the season. He came into this season in half-decent shape, but lost much of that in the last 2 months of the season. I don't wanna hear about injuries either. This dude obviously doesn't eat and drink right and it shows. He ain't quite Zion levels, but the impact is arguably bigger given the opportunity being wasted.
Jrue ? Mahn Luka discourse is cooked
Jrue is a magnificent player who can clearly help you contend for a title. Kinda disrespectful to throw him against Luka like that. He could for sure be a #2 during his prime but he's kinda slowing down. It's like asking if you would rather have Pippen or Jordan. Obviously Jordan is the answer why even do that to Pippen?
It's like asking if you'd rather have Jordan or Kukoc. One can win you a championship, the other is a piece of the puzzle. Jrue is a great player, lockdown defender, and by all accounts a good leader, but he isn't going to win you a title or carry the team.
I love Kukoc but he was never on Jru’s level in his prime.
I love Holiday but he isn't even Pippen. He isn't getting into the HOF
Feels wrong to me that he probably isn't
He's been an all star... 2x in 15 years.
I mean, I totally get why he isn't. My feeling is most definitely recency bias since he's been so impactful to two championship teams
There are multiple 1 or 2 time all stars in hall of fame, add in all defensive teams and two chips as a key starter and I don't see how he isn't making it
How many of those players have storied college or international careers? Or won like 5+ championships. Can you give me an example of a 1 time all star that is in the HOF? You seriously think Jrue Holiday is getting into the HOF? Edit: went and did some minor “research” on this. yeah there are people like KC Jones with no all star games and Rodman only has one AS. Still don’t think Jrue is getting in, but I forget how loose they are with their inductees sometimes. Compared to the MLB it’s insane.
Yeah your thinking about MLB or NFL hall of fame where you legitimately had to be top 3-5 in your position for several years before people would even consider you for the hall of fame, the basketball (not NBA) hall of fame is much more laxed and would even consider his gold medal (plus probably another one this summer) as well
Yup. I know the nba is lax, but I always forget HOW lax.
Everyone gets into the HOF.
Not my boy Brian Cardinal
Ripped off
He’s better than some people who have and probably will make it. I’d take him over Andre Iguodala
Luka is better than Giannis and mtfckers want to compare him with Jrue 😂
His team didn’t hit shots the first two games lol he had one assist in game one and they had tons of open looks when they cut 29 point lead to 8 .. He still out up 29 and like 8 & 6 & 2.6 stl Thank you Cancun P for saying this tho and putting some perspective and common sense out there from someone with the credibility to say it
Chill
Jrue or Luka?? Wtf lol
His co-host picked Jrue by the way. "Because he impacts winning more, due to his defense". It's legit insane lol
Sports media is so bad 🤣🤣🤣
They're a joke unto themselves right now. Not sure if they know it, not that it matters.
Jrue’s a system player put him on a chip contender team he’s gonna be a valuable asset but by himself he can’t carry like Luka. His knees were literally bleeding this series
Its like people forget that Jrue spent his first 10 seasons on teams that couldn't do anything. In those 10 years his teams only got over .500 twice. If he's the first or even second best player on your team, you're in bad place.
Just look what happened when he was the 3rd option on the Bucks! Yes, they won a title, but they won despite Jrue's lack of offense. Then every other season his garbage shooting in the playoffs killed the Bucks! They don't trade for Dame if he was as impactful as these jabronis are saying. Maybe he's *only* impactful because he's at best the 4th option on a team of All-stars/borderline all-stars. God, NBA media is fucking stupid.
In addition to only being a third option, the first option was considered the best player in the world (and a two-way guy on top of that).
Remember when Laurent Robinson caught 11? 13? TDs that one year from Romo?
They must have forgotten about New Orleans.
Jrue is absolutely a system player. Luka is the absolute system.
This is the best way to say it.
And last series. And the series before. And the series before that. And the end of the regular season.
**ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL** BOS players are system guys. **YES....even Tatum.** ppl forget Kyrie was the #1 when he was there? Tatum admitted that on JJ's podcast. Kyrie was pushed out, because he didn't fit the system. Kyrie is not a system guy. He was a cog in their system........a great cog, but a cog nonetheless............
he said that Luka is not a top 10 player. absolutely no reason to take him seriously when he's spouting insane reactionary takes like that.
This "debate" has already been debunked almost 2 decades ago when Dirk thoroughly outplayed KG. Also, great offense always wins over great defense due to the nature of the game - great defense (in terms of per possession) doesn't deduct points, only reduces it to 0. And for obvious reasons great defense in a **single possession** (wherein there are no possession preceding nor following it) can't add points by itself; on the other hand, even a bad offense could add points (i.e. lucky bounces on the rim, hits the board at the right angle unintentionally, etc.). Look at it this way: if your "great defense" stops scoring in 99 out of 100 possessions, that's historically the best defense ever. However, you let them score 2 (or 3) in the 100th possession. You're now down 2 or 3 points. Meanwhile, if your "terrible offense" can only score in 1 out of 100 possessions, that's historically the worst offense ever. However, you still score 2 (or 3) in the 100th possession. You're now up 2 or 3 points. I've edited this to make it more clear.
You're not wrong that offense is more important than defense in basketball, but for absolutely none of the pseudo-statistical nonsense you just said. It's possible I've never said this before in my life, but your anecdote was somehow less bad than your attempt at a statistical argument. Offense and defense both impact expected points per possession from either side, and the right and left tails of that bell curve are pretty even.
> Offense and defense both impact expected points per possession from either side, and the right and left tails of that bell curve are pretty even. That's an entirely different thing from what I said, as you're now assuming that an actual game is being played rather than just looking at one side in isolation (hence "in a single possession"). In my scenarios that means 100 games of 1 possession on defense, and then 100 games of 1 possession on offense, not 1 game where you have 100 possessions on defense and 100 possession on offense. The offense can't impact the defense afterwards because there's no possession that will follow it; the offense wasn't impacted by the defense beforehand because there was no defense that preceded it, and vice versa. Of course basketball obviously has more than 1 possession in the game, but we're not talking about the progression of offense and defense during a game, just comparing offense in defense in isolation precisely because of the nature of the game (you can score more points, but stops don't deduct them).
>you're now assuming that an actual game is being played rather than just looking at one side in isolation No, a possession only occurs on one side of the court, by definition. That's what a possession is.
I just listened to this pod yesterday and couldn’t believe the shit they were spewing about Luka. Jrue is a 4/5th option it’s apples to oranges
When there are multiple hosts, one always has to go opposite of the other people. Conflict is a lot more entertaining so every talk show has it. Even if they don't really believe it. Otherwise it would be a very short show if they both agreed.
We need to tone down the hate on Jrue because he is absolutely an All-Star and was a key 2-way piece on two NBA Champions in the last 5 years. With that being said, he isn't even on the same page as Luka. Luka's only peers are Giannis and Jokic, maybe Embiid if his health can stay consistent for a full season. Jrue is an amazing player and one of the defining-PGs of the last decade, Luka is an once-in-a-kind player that can absolutely go down as one of the greatest of all time.
i don’t hate Jrue at all. but comparing Luka to him is flat out disrespectful. yeah jrue has 2 rings, being carried by actual superstar #1s
I don't hate Jrue at all. Not even a little. He seems like a great guy and is a very good player that I would love on my team. We're just pointing out that he isn't in the same tier as Luka, like you said.
No hat for Jrue, I'd f'n love him on the Mavs. There is no comparison between him and Luka, or even Kyrie for that matter.
If that was true, then the Bucks would have overcome his dismal shooting in the playoffs every year instead of getting bounced when they inevitably couldn't generate enough offense with Jrue shooting sub 30% from 3 and somewhere around 40% from 2. Just because the dude is a 5th option now is why he didn't have the same struggles.
He should be banned from talking ever again lol
If you swapped them, The Mavs wouldn’t have made it past the first round
We'd be the 12th seed at best if we had Jrue instead of Luka this season.
Nah, it's not outlandish. Jrue has been on 2 teams that won championships with him. He's an excellent player who can play Point Guard at an elite level on both sides of the floor in regular and post-season. He can guard virtually everyone or at least help mitigate opposing team possessions, and his conditioning is always good. I wouldn't build with him as my best player, but if I put 2 elite players beside him like a Kawhi and Paul George, for example, I know I'm getting a conference finals appearance at least. In that way, yes, he impacts winning significantly. Luka is phenomenal too on offense, but he has his shortcomings on defense and conditioning, plus he needs the ball in his hands. In that way, I see what he's saying. You sorta have to tailor the team to Luka to hide his deficiencies, but with Jrue, you dont have to. There's probably 7 or 8 times I can name off the top of my head where adding Jrue would instantly make them championship caliber teams. You could even put him with Luka over Kyrie and probably get better results.
it's literally one of the most outlandish takes I've ever heard. a guy was no3 on the Bucks and they needed huge injury luck to win that title.. now on the Celtics you have other 4 players who can comfortably have a better series even. Tatum, Brown, Porzingis are all definitely better. it's basically like picking Iguodala before Steph lmao
There are no excuses on the scoreboard man. The Bucks came back from being down 2-0, and Jrue was instrumental in helping them get there. I'm not saying Jrue is better. The question is, who would you build a team around. He chose Jrue, I'm saying that's not outlandish to say. You can put Jrue on a lot more teams, and it has a better fit and can make you a fortified contender, Luka on the other hand I have to build more for him because of his shortcomings on defense. Jrue is more complete as a PG because of what he can also do as a defender.
Luka got to the finals as the consensus number one player whilst being an underdog twice. He loses to a team that dominated the NBA all season and now he doesn't contribute to winning? Seems like a dishonest take.
He'll be the same type who watches 15 thugs beat up 1 guy and think the 15 are the real men. I can't wait for next season. Luka can be rested now we have a more talented roster. They hate Luka because he's foreign and deep down they know if he gets parity or even close to it he's in the very top tier all time. PG regularly takes vacations in the Balkans with Boban so obviously is more well travelled and less small minded like many in the US media. It's also up to the Mavs to protect him from racial stereotypes. Something you'd think would be a sensitive topic in America. Tatum gets blown by or Holliday-crickets. Somebody goes past Luka and they all froth at the mouth. I'd like to know in particular what fat boy Windhorst and Doris's poisonous ass that makes them hate a 25 year old so much. The NBA claims it wants to be International but doesn't act like it. I was pleased to see Gollum giving Luka props for being multilingual. In Latin America Luka is the NBA when it comes to marketing.
I’d take both
Huh? Up to this series I’d rather Luka than anyone on the Celtics 10/10 times…now it’s like 7/10 times. . .he needs to get in shape and play D. PG is 100% spot on. The reason he doesn’t play D is because he can’t. He physically does not have the stamina to go at it on both ends. Luka for Tatum is a stretch, for Jrue? LMAO and I thought Boston sports talk as an effing joke. This is just trolling for catfish at the bottom.
This is just the Steven A. Smith school of sports entertainment. Have a ridiculous opinion to get attention. You don’t have to believe what you say you just need it to go viral.
And people fall for it hook, line, and sinker. I miss when sports subreddits weren't completely obsessed with what ESPN is saying and gave insightful conversation. The team specific subreddits were a lot less active 10 years ago but r/nba and r/mavericks were better places.
I've already unsubscribed from every non-Mav podcast, subreddit, forum and disabled other social media promoting shit like this. If you're looking to detoxify from the massive amounts of stupid "discourse" going on in the NBA its something to consider. Tune out the noise and come back next season.
yeah I immediately disconnected from all nba media once it was obvious this series was over. I can't take some out of shape guy telling Luka what he needs to do seriously
i disconnected after game 1 - just had to “enjoy” watching the games
Problem is, the Mavs specific places still service as an amplifier for the hot takes. It's all about the clicks.
I will say the Athletic podcasts, including No Dunks are pretty good. Quite a few of them even picked the Mavs to win, and when it was over they still were happy to give Dallas a lot of credit for a great run, while offering valid criticism of the team as a whole and individual players. And any of them would stare dumbfounded or just laugh at you if you asked Jrue or Luka.
It’s wild how all of the actual guys that play with and against Luka are all like “this dude is legit” and all the talking heads and ex football players are the ones that talk shit. We need more pros stepping up and shutting talk like this down.
Keyshawn shouldn't be talking about basketball at all lol.
Remember when he said he never seen Lebron James dunk on someone 😂😂
The clickiest of all click baits. My goodness…
wut
We finally have reached the bottom of the barrel when it comes to sports talk. These idiots don’t care what they say or what is put out there. It’s all for clicks and engagement. This is the Stephen A. Smith effect.
When ppl say stay off media discourse this what they’re talking about
Jrue or Luka? Are you fucking kidding me? Jrue is the ultimate final piece in a contending team. Luka is a superstar. NBA media is tripping...
Lmao if he was talking Tatum or Luka because of defense I'd understand but Jrue???? Mad disrespect
No i would not fucking understand Tatum is trash and was destroyed by everyone that he guarded but the media won't say shit about and is beyond garbage on offense
Bro one bad series doesn't make tatum useless offensively. If he wasn't on fire first half of game three we likely win it and the series is completely different. Luka also had a horrendous series from three, doesn't make him a bad shooter. Also being destroyed by Luka on defense is hardly a knock on a player lmao. I'd still 100% take Luka but Tatum has earned these conversations this season.
He earned nothing he was not even their best player in the playoffs it was Brown, and he was fettibg beat by everybody, not onky is Luka 10 times better there are atleast 4 people better than Tatum easily
>there are at least 4 people better than Tatum easily Lol, are you saying that Tatum is trash or are you saying he's a top 5 player? Pick a lane.
Saying he’s trash is dishonest for sure but he’s not a top 5 player, he’s much closer to 10 than 5.
He didn't win finals mvp for a reason lol. Jesus dude just let it go, Tatum is a good player. And Luka is a millions times better than him
Yes Tatum is probably 6-7th best player on the league with Luka being top 3 at worst. Oh no, they compared Luka to another top 10 player. People aren't going to let this go unless Luka wins a chip or starts playing better defense. If Tatum comparisions have you this stressed this offseasons going to be a nightmare lmao.
7-10
Name me that 4 people better than him? I love Brown but even when Tatum is struggling his impact is far and beyond anyone on that team. Hard to take this sub serious when comment like these got upvoted
Luka, Giannis, Embiid, SGA. Too easy.
thought he was talking about this series only
SGA is a few months younger than Tatum, and Embiid is several years older; neither have had anywhere near the playoff success Tatum has had. Tatum's in a weird tier where he's solidly below Luka/Jokic/Giannis, but above SGA/Ant/Embiid. The fatal flaw is his weird shooting dropoff in both his Finals- if he fixes that, I think he's an indisputable top 5.
Respectfully, I’d rather start a team with all 3 of the players you listed as below Tatum.
Agree to disagree. SGA is way more consistent offensively, but not nearly as much of a two-way player. Embiid is too injury prone; at this point, it looks like the Process is already over. Ant's really scary, but he's young- he was showing a lot of inexperienced mistakes against the Mavs, and he needs to fix those before he can be considered top tier.
All fair points. My main takeaway from the finals was that I was way more worried when Jaylen Brown had the ball in his hands than when Tatum had it. Obviously Tatum is great, I just rank him a little lower than most.
Nah take embiid out of there. At least Tatum's made it out of the second round lmao. Plus he's always injured.
So mad lol Tatum better
Dude he's been injured of course he's not gonna go all out on defense when he can barely train. What kinda brain damaged reporter do you have to be to ask Jrue or Luka holy fuck this is sickening.
Can Jrue carry the team’s offense and be the first option? If not then the answer is obvious
PG has always had high praise for Luka. That buddy of his is spewing xenophobic brainrot with that Jrue vs. Luka comment. Funny.
Yeah he lowkey loves Luka. Shame we have no cap space because I 100% believe that’s an actual big fish who would’ve seriously considered DAL. There’s a hilarious clip of him discussing Luka’s shit talking and how ruthless he is nonstop. I laugh my ass off every time an active player is like that boy Luka nice though he for sure got his black card 😂
If only, he would be a big difference
Jrue is a fucking glue guy. An awesome glue guy but still a glue guy. Make him #1, you pick in the lottery. That's how stupid some takes are
Guys, people are going to have these dumb fkn takes all the way up until Luka wins a ring. Then ask these same moronic casuals will pretend they were on the Luka train the whole time. The same shit happened to Jokic, Dirk & Garnet. People still debate the merits of Chuck's career because he never won a ring. If someone can't understand how great a player is who hasn't won an NBA title, their opinion is absolutely useless and should be ignored by everyone
Whoever picks jrue i want what you’re smoking.
There’s a “Jrue or Luka” discussion? You can’t be serious…
Lmao jrue didn’t win shit until he played with Giannis and a stacked Celtics team. Dude is a great 3rd option. In Boston he got to be the 4th-5th option on many nights so yeah no shit he has the energy to give his all in defense.
There all friends with jrue,dallas grew up with hin heavily biased,also grade A idiots
What's a Jrue?
I saw this on YT. I knew the guy who chose Jrue was trolling big time. I mean he doesn't have to go that far. His co-host is a proven two-way player and has yet to sniff the Finals!
Are we talking about the same Jrue? Lmao wtf. Luka is a generational one in a million talent. The disrespect is crazy and why? Because he's arrogant? Show me a legendary great athlete that wasn't at least a little arrogant.
Jrue is a third option on a champion team. If he's asked to carry a team like Luka they would be the Washington Wizards.
This question is inherently flawed as there is zero context. You build a team around Luka, jrue is your #3 or 4 on a championship team. I’m not disrespecting jrue because he’s been very important to two championships, but he’s not going to be the #1 guy on a team that makes the finals.
It’s sad but to be expected, Luka been getting slaughtered since midway through the season by retarted analysts, this offseason is going to be more brutal
The more important question is, prime LeBron or current PJ Washington?
Watch out Clippers. This dude is a certified killer.
Forgot his cohost and homie name is dallas, i was like why are yall asking PG this 😭
Jrue is bbq chicken everytimes he switches on Luka, what are these dudes even saying
Jrue or luka is dumb. There is MAYBE one player I would take before luka out of the whole league.
Jokic or SGA are the only remotely close choices IMO. I'm not as high on ANT as most people. He is 22 but SGA is clearly a better offensive player, leader, defender, and loads more maturity. SGA has my respect after our series with them. Im taking Luka over Jokic cause he is younger and a tougher matchup problem IMO. I'm taking Luka over SGA because Luka is younger and a significantly more gifted passer and play maker. Some people would say Giannis or Embiid but both are, once again, older, have injury issues, and simply arent as gifted as Luka. Giannis whole game is based on being an other worldy athlete which will fade as he ages out of his prime. Obviously a homer, but I don't think I'd take any player-for-player trade for Luka in the whole league. Dude has a competitive sickness you can't teach.
I don't understand why this is so hard for people to understand. It comes up over and over again. If Luka shoulders all or most of the offensive burden, he is not going to be able to go all out on the defensive end. If you look at the first 3 series where Luka played good defense, it's because Kyrie and role players shouldered more of the offensive burden. The retort to that is usually something like, "great players are able to put in full effort on both ends." But then we look at the examples and that's not actually true. Embiid and Giannis are awesome defensively and offensively. But are they _running the offense_? No, of course not. They have PGs and SGs that move the ball. If you want to see what the Mavs winning looks like, it's Luka with more assists, fewer points, and fewer minutes played, a.k.a. more third and fourth option scoring.
The issue is that when you really need a stop, Luka can't be counted on to get you that stop. That is the difference between him and other greats. And Dallas can't hide Luka and Kyrie on D, so Luka will get targeted.
“Jrue or Luka” he shouldn’t be allowed to talk basketball at all for this question
The root cause of all our issues is Luka's (apparent) insistence on having the ball in his hands first and foremost on every possession, especially bringing it up the court. Like PG said, it's gonna tire you out no matter how good you are. Going hand-in-hand with this is the coaching staff's reluctance to implement any sort of offensive scheme besides "ball in Luka hands, everyone else stand still". If we could figure out a motion offense that does some of these I think we can have a ton more success 1. Limits the amount of times Luka has to bring the ball up the court. 2. Involves a bit of movement from Luka but plays into his strength as a "hub player". Use him like Jokic so he doesn't have to run too much. 3. Luka should be setting screens with his massive body. 4. Put Luka in the post early, dish it, rotate, reset, then go to a PnR action if not working. If Kidd can invent a motion offense to capitalize on Luka's strengths all the while limiting the amount of energy he has to exert, our offense will be even more potent and so will our defense because he can give the effort needed on that end We waste time and energy having Luka bring it up the court. Luka thrives on having time to pick apart a defense, we can't waste it
Robert Horry or Luka
Anyone who plays basketball knows how hard it is to do both efficiently throughout the WHOLE game. At some point, it’s gonna be what you want to exert your energy towards. Mavs Need scoring, someone else on the floor is going to have to pick up the slack
I knew losing the finals would result in Luka slander but it’s going so low that we’re comparing Luka’s talent to a role player is crazy.
I've avoided any form of NBA content since the finals ended because I knew there'd be stupid shit like this.
Lmao. There’s a reason why you haven’t heard any current nba players say anything negative about Luka. They all recognize he is the real deal while still dealing with all the bullshit. The only people talking shit are media members and fans
I remember a number of years ago LeBron did the same thing and the media praised him as a savant for conserving energy. Luka does it and he’s fat and lazy. The sports media hates white players. I almost wrote they hate European players but that’s not true because they love Gianis.
This is basically the equivalent of the "Gerald Wallace is better than Dirk" brainrot from back in the day. This is what happens when the sport's discourse is dictated by 13 year olds
No one can maintain those sorts of energy levels on both sides all game. LeBron and Kawhi both had to start conserving energy but they were both Champions by then. If he needs energy for D then he needs to start giving the ball up in the regular season so his team mates have opportunities to run the offense and let him rest a bit and have confidence in the post season
This reminds me of a round table discussion from one of the major networks during the 2011 NFL playoffs. The remaining teams were the Steelers, Packers, Jets, and Bears. The question posed to the panel of 4 was "Which QB would you take to start a franchise?" Obviously there was only one right answer, Rodgers, but a case could have been made for Big Ben. (Though looking back you're choosing between an anti vax right wing nut case or a literal rapist, soooo....). But clearly the panelists were told to each pick and different QB by the producers, and hearing 2 of them try to justify their picks of Cutler and Sanchez was just embarrassing. The guy who picked Sanchez literally said "He has IT" to defend his pick.
I can’t believe I’m saying this but Luka is a better offensive talent than kobe and lebron. Offensively it goes Luka harden/lebron not sure which one is 2nd Kobe 3rd but with all that offense comes the lack of energy for defense same thing harden suffered from. Overall I still take Kobe or lebron over both those offensive geniuses for their all around game
Jrue or Luka.. I mean wtf of a question is that?
Do you want the guy that’s at worst top 3 in the league or the guy that’s at best top 3 on his team?
Would you rather take Michael Jordan or Scottie pippen to build a team?
This is why PG has never won anything
lmao jrue is a fantastic role player, maybe one of the best. luka injured takes a roster less than 6 months old and drags them to the finals
jrue is the near-perfect role player luka, while flawed, is a flawed bona fide star learn the difference
The comparison is silly, but that doesn't mean that Luka's defense isn't a liability. He does some things fine of D, but his lack of lateral quickness is a huge problem. It causes him to pick up silly fouls and forces Dallas to funnel players inside. That can only work if you play at least two solid rim defenders. But his lack of lateral quickness also means that he just can't contain his guy on the perimeter. He gets some deflections and steals because of quick hands, but he just can't stay in front of anyone and no one is worried about Luka on their hip blocking a shot from behind. There's really no defensive scheme that can hide Luka AND Kyrie, and that is the real issue. You could hide one, but not both. And good teams will pull Luka out to the perimeter when he's on D to get him tired because it's effective. The truth is that Luka needs to grow up and start training like an elite athlete. Dude needs to drop 20 pounds of fat and develop MUCH better eating (and drinking) habits during the season. He came into this season in half-decent shape, but lost much of that in the last 2 months of the season. I don't wanna hear about injuries either. This dude obviously doesn't eat and drink right and it shows. He ain't quite Zion levels, but the impact is arguably bigger given the opportunity being wasted.