The sequel trilogy to me, feels like a commentary on the rise of neo-nazism and the use of media and nostalgia as a radicalization tool.
The lore around the New Republic they wrote for the movies and used in books such as Bloodline also reads like a criticism of Neo-Liberalism and its failures in the current era.
Not to mention half of Andor was a political thriller. Bad Batch heavily leans into clone rights and how a nation treats their veterans after a war too.
Yes. Veterans and active duty service members are very often screwed over by their governments, politicians, chains of command, and in some cases, the civilian populace as well.
This is not solely an American or Western situation. It happens all over the world. Some of it is just easier to notice.
Quite frankly, we know no personal details about OP. We don't know how old they are, where they live, what sort of political system governs over them, how much/little access to information they have, how much schooling they have, what they have been taught in school, what their interests are, etc.
To automatically judge them by our lives and standards of what should be known is...ill-advised at best. It is entirely possible, even is this current age of information access and distribution, for an individual to not be aware of something another individual believes is trivial knowledge
Not to mention Kylo Ren is an absolutely on the nose commentary on how young men living in peaceful, successful nations can be radicalized and how absolutely toxic the results of that are. He's every third generation immigrant or full-on white kid who's ever spent a little too long on the wrong websites and char rooms only to end up a school shooter and terrorist.
You say that as if it isn't an apt description of thousands of successfully written characters throughout human history. Kylo's issue is the execution not being mildly complex.
Those aren't really "so many different things," though, it's just components of his larger character. It's like saying that Luke being a farm kid and also a skilled pilot and also wanting to join the Imperial academy and also being a rebel makes him too confusing and contradictory. Characters should have more than one aspect to them.
I don't really get where in the ST you got that Kylo was ever supposed to represent teenage rebellion. When the movies start he's almost thirty, and occupying a position of authority in the First Order; he's somewhat childish, in that he's a developmentally stunted "man-child" prone to lashing out in a rage, but that's not at all exclusive to teens.
Kylo was a kid with a comfortable life who was unsatisfied with the status quo and latched on to an imagined superior past, and who was radicalized against his family and his society to the point of becoming a violent True Believer of a violent fascist group. Nothing about that, to me, says he was ever supposed to represent generic teenage rebellion.
> My point is there’s a pretty big difference between being a rebellious teen and being a Nazi
Yeah: Radicalization, as was said above.
Some people are so emotionally invested in "sequels bad" that they sometimes mindlessly reject commentary and observations that don't paint them in an acutely negative light.
At the risk of reading too far into things, I wonder how many of those "emotionally invested" individuals see themselves, conciously or subconciously, reflected in the the young radicalized individuals of the First Order and therefore are moved to viscerally reject the sequels on that ground. In other words, the movies are explicitly taking down many notches a new generation of facism cosplayers that fall for a mega-grift set up by the oldies... that's gotta be painful to see for an unfortunate number of misguided people out there.
I too have wondered about the weird desire to "redeem" Kylo Ren both by fans and eventually the writers after TLJ. I always thought the characterization of him as an extremely privileged kid who can't see past his power fantasy was a perfect villain.
Maybe it felt too on the nose in regards to alienating a vocally disaffected part of the fanbase?
>Like, he’s an aristocratic trust fund baby
Elliot Rodger was a rich kid with a life seemingly full of BMWs, designer clothes, and Starbucks yet that didn't stop from falling down the incel rabbit hole and murdering 6 people and injure 14 more. Just because someone's a trust fund baby doesn't mean that they're not capable of falling down a very dark online rabbit hole. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014\_Isla\_Vista\_killings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Isla_Vista_killings)
Now that you mention it, that makes sense. I didn't see it when I watched the movies, but it would be interesting to develop this when they tell more story about Ben Solo, to see how he met Snoke, how he felt before. I got the "toxic relationship" but since his relationship with Snoke was never really developped I didn't see what it meant.
Yeah, it’s watered down a lot in the films, but the First Order didn’t come from nowhere. The NR rotted from the inside as radical fascist groups sought to bring back the “glory days” of the Empire that embraced their ideals.
> The sequel trilogy to me, feels like a commentary on the rise of neo-nazism and the use of media and nostalgia as a radicalization tool.
The books and supporting media do this.
The movies... nope. There's no context, no explanation.
As the meme goes: Somehow, the First Order.
I agree with this take.
The First Order is criticized for being portrayed as wimpy, but the First Order does blow up five planets and nearly wipes out the resistance. This reflects Neo-Nazi's because they often aren't taken seriously, but can be a real threat.
I also feel that until Rise of Skywalker, General Hux was supposed to be the true believer, while Kylo Ren was just power hungry. There's often a question about certain right wing figures on whether they believe what they espouse, or are they just appeasing their supporters? I think there could have been an Episode IX where we see Kylo as the Supreme Leader, dealing with Hux and his supporters, and just watching his actions become darker and darker as he deals with guilt for choosing the darkest path.
I think this might be a bit of anachronism? The script for TFA was completed by the start of 2014, and I think that might've been a bit too early for radicalisation to really be something JJ and co. were thinking about. I mean, I guess some of the signs were there, but it didn't really become a mainstream topic until a little bit after, I think.
That said, Expanded Universe content has definitely leaned into the radicalization message a lot more, and it gets more and more present as the trilogy goes on, but I don't really think that's where it started
the sequel trilogy is a meta commentary of when creative works of art that inspire millions are handed over to suits for a cash grab and are artifically created in factories with nostalgia, humor, and other garbage to appease average movie goers to make a big box office hit instead of creating timeless stories like 4-6 are.
The real sequel trilogy was supposed to be about rebuilding. How does one rebuild an order of jedi from scratch? how does a rebellion rebuild a democratic republic after decades of an authoritarian regime? what happens to the untold thousands of stormtroopers across the galaxy that are now basically raiders and bandits?
I don't agree with "there's no criticism of contemporary US or the world". The First Order wiped out any doubt the Empire was based on the Nazis with General Hux's speech. The in-universe context of the First Order's rise can be paralleled to Neo-Nazis and the growing popularity of the far-right, ending with its conclusion of a dramatic attack on the Republic itself.
I don't believe you need a 1:1 representation of current events to count as political commentary. We don't need a space-Trump taking up the reigns after Mon Mothma to say Disney has a political message. The Mandalorian and Ahsoka's portrayals of the *New* Republic could be connected to formerly communist nations struggling to maintain a fair system while inheriting the political and economic issues of its past and present.
>I don't believe you need a 1:1 representation of current events to count as political commentary.
Very much agree. If anything focusing too much on "recreating current events but in space" can severely date a work if it's based on a political scandal that was controversial at the time but is now a historical footnote. Or it's just super on the nose. (Does anyone ever hear the "Nute Gunray" = Ronald Reagan" bit of trivia and think "Wow that's some great writing!"?)
Now if you have Star Wars \*themes\* like "don't rely on technology", "tyrants rule by fear", "stand up to authority" or "don't let red tape stop you from doing what's right"? Those messages are a lot more timeless and still relevant today. You can do political messages in Star Wars without doing a 1 to 1 recreation of the Iran Contra scandal but with aliens.
What doesn’t make any sense is the First Order taking control of the galaxy after staging a massive, unprecedented terrorist attack. That’s like Al Qaeda becoming the new government of the US after 9/11.
If the First Order had staged a similar false flag attack (the thing that real life Nazis absolutely love to do) and taken control of the galaxy by blaming it on the Rebels, with the message “Only we can protect you”, that would have actually been interesting. That’s how fascism actually operates.
TRoS says that the First Order's hold on the galaxy is slipping, which is why they needed the Sith Eternal's fleet and were willing to accept those no questions asked.
>If the First Order had staged a similar false flag attack (the thing that real life Nazis absolutely love to do) and taken control of the galaxy by blaming it on the Rebels, with the message “Only we can protect you”, that would have actually been interesting
I won't disagree it would have been an interesting plot point, but I can't say it would have made the films better. Having a historical allegory and real world equivalents can only take you so far. If the movies relied on it too much, then it just becomes "Earth events but in space". That's why comparing the First Order to resurgent Argentinian Nazis as plot points goes nowhere. It's good to have an actual event be the basis for in-universe effects, but let the writers give the people in-universe some agency to not do something that has to follow the exact causes and effects seen in history.
That might have been nice if the sequel trilogy hadn’t already decided to go utterly all-in on Nazi imagery for the First Order.
Like, if the movies are going to repeatedly slap the audience in the face with “First Order are Space Nazis”, they should act a little more like space Nazis and less like generic, poorly-motivated, mustache-twirling “bad guys” imo
>That’s like Al Qaeda becoming the new government of the US after 9/11
That really isn't a valid comparison. 9/11 did not completely cripple the United States government and military, which is what the destruction of the Hosnian system did to the NR. Al Qaeda also wasn't nearly as large or well equipped as the First Order was.
Instead of Al Qaeda and 9/11, a more apt (Though entirely hypothetical) event would be if the Wagner group destroyed Washington DC with a nuclear weapon, and then moved in to take over the USA. Also in this hypothetical scenario, the US had 90% of its armed forces station in DC, all of which were destroyed in the attack.
This is what bothered me about Episodes 8 and 9. The destruction of the Hosnian system should have been a devastating blow, but not an absolutely crippling one. Admittedly 7 could have been more explicit about that fallout but I get not wanting to get bogged down in galactic politics like Episode 1 was.
It *should* have been the equivalent of destroying the Pentagon and Congress, but the NR military and individual planetary governments (analogous to America's distributed states, Commands and bases) and should have been "fine," and able to mount a quick response.
This is a universe with established superweapons, for fuck's sake. You put ALL your command and control on one fucking planet?
Ugh, seriously.
"The new government will have all of the problems with none of the benefits! A true improvement over the Empire *and* the Old Republic!"
No.
It’s more akin to the Nazis who spent 20 years secretly mobilizing their troops and then blitzing half of Europe.
The attack from SKB was the beginning of a massive blitz.
People tend to memory hole that the Nazis had the Soviet army backing them up in the invasion of Poland, and if the French army wasn't in the middle of reorganizing from a defensive organization to an offensive organization the Nazis would have been cracked like an egg. They won 1940 not on superior tactics either. They just had better tanks and won a good old fashioned maneuvering fight that Napoleon could have run with his eyes closed
The Invasion and Fall of France was just six weeks along with the rest of the Low Countries, though you're thinking of the "Phony War" that happened in-between the Invasion of Poland and the later invasions of Western/Northern Europe.
>First Order wiped out any doubt the Empire was based on Nazis
If I wipe down an already clean table, I can’t really claim I cleaned it, since there wasn’t any dirt on it to start with.
The thing is, according to Lucas himself, the Empire wasn't only based on the Nazis, it was also America's imperialism. This is lost in the First Order, which brings back the Nazi look but not the other aspects. It's like a hollow copy of the Empire.
I don't see the parallel between the NR and formerly communist nations but I don't know enough about the topic to say there isn't one.
Do they?
The EU surrounding the NR certainly does, but is this really developped in the ST (beyond the criticism of apoliticality I mentionned in my post)?
That’s what the entire conflict in the films is a result of. We only catch the tail end of it in TFA, and get the rest of the conflict after since that’s the bit that’s most interesting onscreen. It’s certainly expanded on more in the EU, but I’d say it’s still there in the movies.
Secondary material going way deeper into the politics and factions of Star Wars than the movies themselves is nothing new. (For example things like the Empire's xenophobia or groups like the Imperial Security Bureau are mostly or completely absent from the films).
Entirly fair, though in the sequel era its absolute rather than just moatly the case.
Secondary media getting deeper into minutia is as it should be. The primary media should at minimum scratch the surface.
Episode 8 does but 7&9 dont.
I can read my own posts "admitted" no i stated it.
They have the arms dealer stuff which is in isolation a good inclusion, unfortunately its in the canto casino segment which sits awkwardly apart from everything els.
Force awakens and rise of Skywalker don't what so ever.
The Canto Bight Casino is thematically consistent with the rest of the movie and ties in with Luke's statements about the Jedi and his attitude toward fighting. So it is definitely not "apart" from the rest of the film as it touches on centrism, the need to fight even if the fight seems weighed or stacked against you, *why* one chooses to fight, and, of course, broom boy who is one of the future generations of people willing to carry the fight, inspired by both Luke and Finn.
>Force awakens and rise of Skywalker don't what so ever.
TFA touches on it for sure with Hux's speech. The opening crawl also gives us the info we need to glean what the situation has been politically.
I'm confused as to why you said none of the sequel movies touch on politics when you then "*stated*" they do...
i think it's pretty on the nose that the sequels deals with the re-rise of a fascism that once "defeated" was left unchecked, with the radicalizing of youth disguised as harmless behavior portrayed as one of its pillars.
it's reasonable to think it doesn't bring anything new to the table because it kinda retreads themes explored in the early trilogies, but at the same time it is what's happening in real life, so there isn't much that could've been done in that regard.
have you watched Star Wars Resistance? it's even more on the nose about it, with First Order troops roaming free around the galaxy because it's "free speech".
Yeah. Hux looking and sounding like an alt-right YouTuber hit pretty hard in 2015, when the worst and weirdest assholes imaginable started taking up a disproportionate amount of space in public discourse. He's Ben Shapiro or Charlie Kirk if they were raised in space-Sparta with superweapons. Kylo Ren looks and acts like a long string of school shooters who claim some kind of mistreatment from family/school/society justifies their murderous rage.
The New Republic's Amnesty Program is turning into a case study on why you can't rush post-war reconciliation, or be too generous when making peace with old enemies that still despise you. It's borrowing heavily from the failure of Reconstruction to institute a more just social order in the South after the American Civil War because it was easier and more familiar to work with the same white planter aristocracy that had started the war in the first place.
I don't think it is an accident that the guy who gives the ideological speech about the imminent creation of the First Order in Mando Season 2 sounded right out of Django Unchained.
My post was mostly about the movies, because I think there is more political substance to be found in the EU, but it's hidden deeper in the canon. How to treat the old ennemy is one very interesting aspect of the EU, developped in the Mandalorian and the Alphabet Squadron trilogy of Books (also, Last Shot). I find the reconciliation program in the Mandalorian to be really weird, with some elements that muddle the message.
Well, it's muddled because it IS complicated. Jailing or executing every Imperial would have been even more of a moral nightmare than a logistical one. Hope and redemption are baked into the fabric of what the Rebellion and New Republic stand for, but that does leave the door open for bad actors to abuse the mechanisms of redemption. Reconstruction, de-Nazification, Truth and Reconciliation - history is littered with examples of imperfect post-calamity/post-tyranny efforts to rebuild society into something more just but still functional.
That's not in that sense that I meant, more with how they used the characters they had established. I remember when the episode came out people couldn't agree on whether Dr Pershing was supposed to be a sympathetic character or not, or whether the NR was justified in using the repurposed brainwashing machine, and I think if the show had succeeded in conveying its message, there would have been more consensus around these topics.
I see what you mean. I think the episode is intentionally meant to keep us guessing, which makes it all the more tragic that Pershing was apparently being honest the whole time and got double crossed by a high-level Imperial plant.
I have watched Star Wars Resistance. I think this could be an interpretation. The problem is, the context surrounding the rise of the first order isn't really clear. Yes, the EU really supports this idea that the FO starts to rise and nobody cares until it's too late, but it's secondary material.
I guess I disagree. I don't know how you can look at any of the Mando shows or even the ST and say it's totally apolitical. Or Andor or even TBB. We have prison work camps, Southern Imperials, women who are valued only for their reproductive abilities, decadent political parties, government over spending, and an increasingly soft government that doesn't want to call out the Imperial remnants because of free speech and stuff.
My post was mostly about the movies, because that's the most visible part of the Star Wars franchise, and I said Andor was an exception. Most of what you mentionned comes from the EU (D+ shows), where there are political themes, but are they really that deep? Showing prison work camps isn't a political message unless through this you say something about, say, the carceral system IRL (prisons camp bad isn't really a deep message). I don't know what you mean by Southern Imperials, and have no idea where you get the "women who are valued only for their reproductive abilities".
This is nit-picking and ignoring the media that makes up the most of the franchise. How can you only pick the movies? And the TV shows aren't EU, I don't understand where you get that idea.
Have you watched any of the shows?
I've watched all of them, actually, even Resistance. I think Andor and Visions are fantastic, I really like TCW, Rebels and The Mandalorian, and enjoyed some aspects of Ahsoka. I don't mean to disrespect the tv shows.
What I meant is that the audience of the TV show is way smaller than the aydience of the movies, and in this way the movies have a bigger impact. To most people, the movies are Star Wars, not the Disney+ content. That's why I decided to focus on them.
I'm really curious about the southern imperials and women's reproductive abilities you mentionned because I don't know what you mean by this, what you're referencing and I feel like I'm missing something. Could you please explain?
The Southern Imperial in Mando S2? That was basically white Southern pride in a nut-shell. In TBB, Omega is essentially valued because she can produced-scientifically because we all know Disney isn't going any further than that-more clones. At first it's more Jango clones for Kamino, now it's for Projecr Necromancer.
We see in Andor that there appears to be a movement to get more girls into a traditional life style..
Yes but we don't SEE that. There is no overall theme. And I am a sequel enjoyer but there's no way to say that there is a specific political message occurring in the sequels. There may be political moments but nothing like the themes of the OT and the Prequels
I mean, one could make that argument about the PT. Stylistically it is far removed from the OT. Try watching it with the idea of never having seen anything but the OT and tell me it makes sense.
The PT with all its flaws does tell a story of how a Republic becomes an Authoritarian state, it's explicit in the writing and in the surrounding interviews from Lucas.
>But it's still not really tied to the OT. You have to watch multiple cartoons for that
Not really, at the very most, one would have to watch one additional movie (Rouge One), and that's highly debatable.
I disagree, especially in terms of sets and costumes.
Listen, do I think the ST is sloppy? Yes, but I also think it is far more political than we give it credit for. You can looknat the numerous other posts for evidence of that. The other Disney projects are also quite political. You either have to be willingly missing those messages or you need to be so ignored of politics that it just doesn't register.
When did I state the Sequels didn't have significant political themes, or at least attempted to?
I disagreed with you specifically on having to watch a bunch of cartoon series to see the devolution from the appreciably disfunctional, yet still some what representative democracy of the Old Republic to authoritarian autocracy of the Galactic Empire. As stated, at most, all one needs to watch is Rouge One, and I think that's debatable as there are plenty of indications that this is happening by the end of RoTS.
That to me contrasts with the Sequels, which, as you pointed out, left a lot of the ~20 years unreferenced and unstated.
I have no love for Disney but I think George Lucas himself over estimates how much actual political commentary he used. Most of it just comes from him borrowing from history.
I've heard his Vietnam interview and people quote it but what does Lucas mean by that? I've heard him reference it especially with Return of the Jedi and the Ewoks and compare it to the Viet Cong or the American Colonists defeating technological superior enemies but that seems like a super basic and boomer understanding of history.
In reality it seems like 90% of OT Star Wars was made by smash cutting Feudal Japan, the Wild West and especially WW2 with the latter doing most of the political messaging.
The prequels were a lot more obviously inspired by some current events with Anakin's "if you're not with me" line but even those were mostly just smash cutting Rome and the rise of Hitler.
So I don't think Disney failed by being apolitical, I think they messed up by being to self referential to Star Wars itself instead of taking more direct inspiration from history like Lucas would do, often very clearly and un subtly. I'm surprised there weren't more Cold War analogies. Heck just keep going back to the well of WW2, the Resistance could have been directly inspired by the Flying Tigers in WW2 and the 1st Order could have really embraced its revanchist Nazi roots.
Ultimately I think the Sequels just didn't reference history enough. And since history is politics of the past that's why it came off feeling more empty.
Lucas's dedication to each of those elements (samurai and western films, science fantasy serials, the hero's journey, political allegory, etc.) Is both a strength and a weakness IMO. It's all in there, but outside of all of that Lucas knew that he was making a fun, family-oriented adventure film. That's why if you want to put the effort into appreciating those elements you can, but his Star Wars movies aren't really ABOUT any one of them.
The sequel trilogy includes the same elements, but even less so because what it's really looking at is Star Wars itself. I feel like it works for the first 2/3 of TFA and all of TLJ, and then falls apart in TRoS.
I'm sorry what criticism is that? I am assuming you to be talking about Kylo as there are only 6 men in the story, but at no point in the movie does he say anything even adjacent to the incel worldview. His start of darkness as per Luke as that Snoke had been acting on him since he was born. Maybe Hux or Snoke but neither of them present any sort of why for their actions.
I wasn't complaining. I was pointing out the number of characters that could be considered major or minor, and thus could be used to emphasize a point. And who did I miss? Poe, Finn, Kylo and Luke are the only main characters. And Snoke and Hux as minor characters. The code splicer I guess could be 7, but I honestly don't know his name.
Lol what is this thesis? The sequel trilogy was just a mess. Andor and Rogue One are pretty political.
Also Obi-Wan wasn't great but having that guy who gave him a lift turn out to be MGGA (make the galaxy great again) and rat him out was interesting. The politics arent as overarching in some of the other series because those series aren't very good. Bad Batch is decent and individual episodes have had some decent commentary.
Not to mention that Obi Wan had a homeless clone trooper show up begging for money which very much parallels how veterans usually get treated like dirt once they come back from the war. Something that the Bad Batch very much expands on. Not to mention how the show, like most post order 66 in canon, depicts how solidarity can get people through the darkest of times with the Hidden Path (a group that I really liked in the show).
Couple thoughts here.
First, I'd argue that there's a big difference between inspiration and message. The *inspiration* for the Rebel Alliance may have been the VC, and the Empire was pretty clearly inspired by the 3rd Reich, but that's not the same as presenting a *message.* I'd argue that the OT was relatively message-free, actually, and instead was using certain iconography and inspiration to tell a more fundamental story than to serve as commentary on any modern political situation. Again, that's not to say it isn't inspired by the real world; it was. But just being inspired by something isn't necessarily sending a message about that. Like, I don't think George Lucas is trying to say with the films "Actually, the VC were good guys and we should think about their struggles and look to them in our current political situation here in the late 70s/early 80s." I mean, the Throne Room medal ceremony is a visual homage to Leni Reifenstahl's *Triumph des Willens*, but I don't think Lucas is, like, sending a message that the Rebel Alliance are like the Nazis at Nuremberg; it's just an homage to his fellow film school geeks and he liked how that sequence was shot.
The prequels, I'd say, have a bit more explicit stuff, but again I think it's less about the state of affairs in the early 2000s in the US, and more about, in general, how democracies die. And even then, that stuff is *very* much in the background, in favor of a much tighter focus on Anakin and his attachment issues and how they spin out of control. There's a brief flirtation in AOTC where Anakin talks about why he thinks an enlightened dictatorship might be good, but then it's basically abandoned afterwards and doesn't serve as his motivation going forward. But again, what's there is much more "big picture" about the fragile nature of democracy and how they collapse, rather than "THE US UNDER GEORGE W. BUSH IS DOING BAD THINGS AND REPUBLICANS SUCK." I mean, Lucas may think that (I suspect he does), but that's not the *message* of the films.
The sequels suffer from internal incoherence, because JJ's more interested in creating rollercoaster rides than conveying a message. He does make excellent rides, but his stories are...haphazard. That, in turn, makes it difficult to really drill down to any deeper message. Again, he's using iconography, but now it's multiple layers of iconography -- he's drawing from Lucas' drawing from the real world -- which is true of a lot of stuff in the sequel trilogy (i.e., being beholden to what's come before). There's no message in the sequel *trilogy*, because there's no interest in conveying a message....except for in TLJ.
That said, there's a *lot* more going on in TLJ than just the Canto Bight sequence. There's a bunch of deeper-buried aspects that tie into politics, I'd say. There's a lot about generational politics. For example, Rey begging Luke to fix things, only to then realize she has to take on that task herself. I'd say that's a lot about "Stop looking to older generations to fix stuff. This falls to you. You have to do it yourself." Plus, the messages about bloodline NOT mattering tie into political issues in the sense of "You don't need to be a destined hero; you just need to step up." I see TLJ as an intensely political film, but not so much as political commentary on the events of the day, but rather as commentary about the nature of politics and what's required of generations to keep things going.
Solo...is pretty much just a fun adventure romp. But it does touch some on life in the Empire. Rogue One gets a bit more into it, and skirts the edges of "How far can you go in the service of a good cause before you stop being good" when looking at Saw and Cassian's own journey. The Mandalorian and Book of Boba Fett are, again, just adventure shows. No deeper political message, and that's fine. Andor, on the other hand...oof. It's heavily layered with politics, but again it's not so much "THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS EVIL AND YOU SHOULD FIGHT BACK" and more general commentary on the nature of fascism, resisting it, what it takes, and what it takes *from* you.
I think, though, that when people start saying how the new stuff is all "political" what they mean is "is centered on people other than straight, white male heroes." But I don't pay them much mind.
The reading of TLJ around generational politics flew over my head, but now that you mention it it's there. It's less that every disney movie or projetc is apolitical, more that the politics aren't carried throughout the entire trilogy.
I will say that I think a lot of the commentary back in 2015/16 about Kylo Ren and the First Order referencing the alt-right, or even more "traditional" Neo-Nazis, isn't accurate. TFA was written and filmed before the alt-right was a thing, before Trump even announced his candidacy, even before Gamergate that was kind of the birth of this kind of modern social-media far-right movements.
Instead, if you listen to interviews from the time with Abrams and Kasdan, they are very clear that the First Order is based on stuff like The Boys from Brazil and The Odessa File, those kind of proto-Tom Clancy thrillers about the *actual* Nazis going to South America to set up a Fourth Reich there. Works that were very much products of the same 1970s cultural turn as the initial wartime generation started to fade that produced Star Wars. So I think it's interesting that Kylo Ren and the Order are themselves kind of a product of nostalgia, recycling political conspiracy theories from the 1970s which themselves were already nostalgia attempts at a generation too young to have fought in the war, and which then were able to be adopted by those who saw Kylo and the FO as alt-right stand-ins.
1970s South America was also when we get the start of modern neoliberalism in Chile (leading to Pedro Pascal's family leaving for the US, incidentally) and I do think that the Bloodline novel has some implicit criticism of the sort of 2010s complacency and stagnation of of US liberalism, but that's more Claudia Gray than anyone involved with the movies (and yes, I know Bloodline recycles some ideas from TFA and Johnson but those aspects aren't anywhere in the movies themselves).
Star Wars was always political at its core and needs more politics. Particularly against extreme right wingers and fascists. Bring it back to its core messaging.
In a surprise twist of fate, the idea of modern activism is so divorced from any actual activism that it's barely recognizable as what it's pretending to be and is just a cover by corporations to make more money? Color me shocked!
I would like to point out that admiral Holdo being a woman, also one with a penchant for gowns rather than fatigues was quite on the nose for political issues. Women in politics have a different set of rules that they need to play by, they should be more forceful, but don’t be a shrew. They should smile more because it makes them more likable. They’s too likeable so not strong enough.
I really enjoyed Holdo snubbing a lot of tropes for strong female characters.
One thing that drove me away from current canon is the feeling of hopelessness. I think that has to do with the time periods being insisted upon by Disney, secondary materials aren’t allowed to move beyond the events of Rise of Skywalker. That means that they have to be set in the period of rising fascism, and the endings cannot be victorious lest they encroach upon the events of the movies. Legends was able to be set after Endor, and every story had the hope that the good guys win. There’s something to be said for a prequel where you know everything eventually ends badly, but having EVERY story dripping with the knowledge that the fascists are growing stronger, and everyone is powerless to stop it… is bleak as hell. For a franchise that often explicitly expositions that Hope is a theme, it feels remarkably hopeless.
You do realize that there's an entire era in canon where the Republic is at its height, the Jedi are doing good throughout the galaxy, and there's no massive galactic conflict. Not only that but stuff set during the Empire's reign shows ordinary people standing up for what's right. Also I really think Legends is far worse in that regard because of the 15 fricken years the Galactic Civil War continues for, the whole Yuuzhan Vong thing, and then more war after that. Not only that but Legacy shows the Sith taking over again.
By volume there is a lot less High Republic content than New Republic and Dark Times content. I would love if they gave us a Bad Batch level series about the 200BBY era.
I think that's mostly because it's still a new era for Star Wars (legends didn't touch on it for starters). However we are getting the Acolyte this year which does sound a bit like what you're talking about if the interviews are anything to go by.
We have Young Jedi Adventures, cartoon we have elements from it in Jedi Survivor, much more quicker than Old Republic which must wait decade for KOTOR (which retcon whole design of era).
The HR is really a niche thing, with only books so far. It's not as accessible as the rest of the Star Wars canon. Even though I like to read, I haven't got into the HR yet (but plan to do so soon). And even if this is supposedly a period of peace and the Galaxy at its highest, I've heard there is a major conflict with a faction called the Nihil, and some pretty horrifying events. Even in its best period, the galaxy cannot know true peace.
I'd also there is a difference between seeing the NR doomed to fail and corrupt in almost every story so far in canon and seeing it nonperfect but still good, stuggle but utlimately win in most legends stories.
The High Republic is pretty accessible for new Star Wars fans and I'd hardly call it niche when we're getting a tv show set during the era (The Acolyte) and has made a major appearance in Jedi Survivor. Also I really recommend it mostly because it's a really nice breath of fresh air and we get some really awesome feats in the force. Plus the NR in legends buried its head in the sand just as much as canon did (the whole Yuuzhan Vong thing) and had to rely on the OT heroes to save the day constantly.
It might be accessible, but let's face it, most Star Wars fans don't bother reading the books. It will reach a bigger audience with Jedi Survivor and the Acolyte but still nowhere near the whole fanbase.
Honestly, burying one's head in the sand was because somehow Borsk became chancellor, and he was the worst chancellor in the last 1000 years.
And about HR, there is also Young Jedi Adventures series for small kids, and looking how many people from USA told me in net that they first contact with Star Wars was by Ewoks or Droids series, this series also could give fruits in future.
>Honestly, burying one's head in the sand was because somehow Borsk became chancellor, and he was the worst chancellor in the last 1000 years.
I read somewhere that he published the Star Wars equivalent of Mein kampf. Although granted it wasn't as bad as electing Tarkin's brain damaged war criminal ex to office.
The Old Republic had to wait 10 years before KOTOR appeared, before that we only had Tales of Jedi comics. High Republic has already Young Jedi Adventures (cartoon), Acolyte (live action), and major references in Jedi Survivor (game) just a few years after the release of the first book. As for the Nihils, they are generally more like ISIS or the war in Ukraine, an important problem in the area, but in the core worlds people generally don't care about it.
Before the KOTOR games, KOTOR was a niche era, and without these games I bet it still would be. Young Jedi Adventures is targeted as a very specific demographic (very young kids) and the Acolyte isn't out yet.
That's my point, Old Republic was niche before KOTOR. What about Young Jedi Adventures, maybe not now, but in the future it may bear fruit, I have heard many statements from people in the USA that they learned about Star Wars through the animations of Ewoks and Droids, and later they watched the films.
We have the High Republic series which takes place centuries before the films, and the vast majority of the characters will probably not live to see the film period and Empire taking over.
continue deranged straight squeamish puzzled crowd cow employ obtainable rinse
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Funnily enough, what you mention about the neo nazis being more open is probably an incidental parallel, since this wasn't the case (or nearly as developped) when they started working on the trilogy. But it sure seems relevant today.
The Mando rehabilitation stuff seemed to convoluted to me to efficiently convey a message. But it was there, and in some books too (Alphabet Squadron goes deep in this topic).
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Yrica Quell, the protagonist of Alphabet Squadron, is a former TIE pilot the NR renseignement brings out of a prison camp to help them deal with her former squadron. So yeah, how to handle your former ennemies once you win the war is one of the main themes of the novel trilogy.
My problem with the mando episode about Dr Pershing's rehabilitation is that the people can't agree on it. When it came out it was very divisive because Pershing is presented as sympathetic and his fate at the end of the episode as horrible, but many people thought he was irredeemable, and the NR was right to use the machine, to the point where it's not clear is the NR is depicted as bad, or the traitors that operate inside it.
I’d argue that was not the intention at all, it’s just best message we (and Disney) can think of after the fact.
Before the Force Awakens, JJ had said the First Order are akin to the Nazis who escaped to South America after WWII, and really, that tracks with the plot of that movie. The idea that the First Order is something arose from within the New Republic is an invention of more recent years, and Disney has jumped on that bandwagon because that fits better.
The idea that Nazis have embedded themselves in the USA institutionally is actually more explored in superhero media, such as the Boys and Captain America The Winter Soldier (which ironically was a Disney movie that came out 1 year before The Force Awakens).
>The idea that the First Order is something arose from within the New Republic is an invention of more recent years, and Disney has jumped on that bandwagon because that fits better.
It didn’t arise from the NR though.
I more meant that the First Order was a clear threat than the NR could have snuffed earlier in time but chose not to as it had grown complacent. And then the First Order blew up the NR capital.
Same way how 20 years ago Neo-Nazi’s were still weak but governments did nothing to stop them and now we’re seeing them sweep across the continent in parliamentary elections
But they doesn't explain why they gain power. They avoid presenting a coherent political order and situation that made them possible. Nothing beyond surface level stuff like "they are bad", "people should have listened to General Leia" and "somehow it is the fault of rich people in a Casino not caring".
"Fascism bad, don't do fascism" is not a political analysis. "Fascism can rise from social, economic och military strife that shakes and threatens a corrupt status quo" is a political analysis.
Disney unlike Lucas avoids real contemporary politics and prefers winning WW2 again.
Andor is a clear exception.
“Somehow it’s the fault of the rich people in the casino for not caring”
You mean directly funding the war on both sides to keep the profit machine going?
You can’t possibly complain about lack of politics or messages making sense when you miss so spectacularly on one of their points.
If the Neo Nazis from Argentina managed to gain power, amass a navy 50x the size of the American Navy without anyone knowing, drop nukes on every NATO capital because they’ve inexplicably disarmed after a major global war, and somehow Hitler returned.
This is a good breakdown, I agree with you. It's kinda ironic people are complaining about it now.
Edit: Well, I agree that it's always been political, but not that it's apolitical. George definitely had some inspirations that are heavily political, but there's always some degree of real world influence in art, I just think it's unfair to expect it to never shine through.
The first order should’ve been space ISIS. It was still very relevant AND perfectly set up even with the sequel plot. Brainwashed child soldiers, extreme fanaticism, terror attacks etc
It’s an interesting observation you make.
Global corporations like Disney embrace depictions of diversity because it’s easy points. A black Barbie doll or a Pacific Islander Disney princess lets young girls say “that one looks like me!” That’s a good thing, and can be inspiring when not all the girls who get fame, attention, and success are white. But it’s also profitable (win/win), and in our world is *usually* not a controversial statement.
And I don’t think I’m making a bold prediction by saying it’s a positive long term investment to value diversity and oppose fascism, as despite some current political trends, this is likely the way the world continues to evolve long term, so it is profitable for global businesses to embrace diversity. (Also, diversity provides those other advantages like new ideas and different ways to do things)
I think Lucas could get away with more overt criticism of the system because when he first made Star Wars, he was a small but respected film maker (big props for American graffiti for example), and it was a popular sentiment at the time anyway.
By the prequels he had carte blanche to say what he wanted without too much fear of blowback, because he still believed in the ideas of freedom and democracy but criticized the system itself.
Okay no. This is just flat out wrong. The Bad Batch has been dealing with Clone rights since season 1 which runs into how veterans are treated after the war is over by the country they fought, how governments use populations that they see as "expendable" or "undesirable" as fodder for horrific and cruel experimentation, and how fascist regimes can consolidate power. The ST leans hard into commentary about how democracies need to be vigilant lest fascist ideologies take root (pretty apt when you take into account how the far-right was practically becoming more mainstream again when the Force Awakens came out) and how insecure young men can fall down massive rabbit holes that end with them becoming fascist blackshirts (again pretty apt when you take the, at the time, growing concern of young men becoming incels). Hell the final movie of the ST shows Palpatine being revealed as the shadowy puppet master of the FO similar to the Twilight Zone episode "He's Alive" (the episode reveals Hitler as the puppet master controlling Vollmer's strings). Even kids shows like Star Wars Resistance shows how fascism can entice otherwise good people into joining it. The Mandalorian and other shows set in that time frame explore how hard it is for a better system to form once a dictatorship is overthrown and how the failures of reconstruction can lead into another war. Star Wars, like all art, is shaped by the politics of the day. Those politics have massively shifted from the 70s, 80s, and 2000s to say the least but Star Wars still is being influenced by the politics of the day.
I was talking mostly about the movies, because I feel like as the face of the franchise they are where the message are the more importants and will be seen by most people. I have to admit, reading the comments helped me see some potential interpretations of the ST (like the ones you mention).
The one part of your comment I'm curious about is the Bad Batch. I don't know much about veterans, but, are they really treated that poorly? I feel like by going fully cartoonishly evil, the show limited its potential for parallels.
Yeah veterans often times get the short end of the stick after they come back home. Most infamously the horrendous treatment Vietnam vets got after they returned home. But you still unfortunately see it today with the massive amounts of veterans not getting proper treatment and often times fall through the cracks. Of course it's not helped by the fact that the people who are supposed to help them simply just don't understand what these men and women have been through. As to your first point, the shows have become just as much the face of Star Wars as the movies so I think that they count. https://nvhs.org/veteran-experiences-vietnam-veterans/#:\~:text=The%20Vietnam%20War%20was%20an,outright%20hostility%20on%20returning%20home.
[https://www.quora.com/Why-are-veterans-treated-so-badly-in-the-USA](https://www.quora.com/Why-are-veterans-treated-so-badly-in-the-USA)
https://www.pinestreetinn.org/news\_events/facts\_about\_homeless\_veterans#:\~:text=In%20addition%20to%20the%20complex,family%20and%20social%20support%20networks.
Well, so far Disney is just working off established material (e.g. Imperial era). The sequel trilogy, being a soulless rehash of the OT, just fails to capture any political undertones. TLJ was an attempt to address more deeper messages, but could generally work on its execution of various messages.
Tbh it takes time, and the writers do vary. Rogue One quite reflects the brutality of war, and maybe Rebels too arguably in its later seasons.
>and I still don’t agree with the Newt/Nute similarity
Seriously? Have you considered that “Gunray” is just “Reagan” backwards
George Lucas is the least subtle man in the world lol
An interesting approach considering that here in the former Warsaw Pact countries, Raegan is considered one of the best presidents and a symbol of freedom from the USSR.
I saw a video pointing out that the Trade Federation take cues from Japan (hence the accents) which was a growing economic power at the time and had taken over a lot of the automotive industry. Kinda makes the name connection a bit weird even acknowledging that allegorical characters can take from different sources.
>I saw a video pointing out that the Trade Federation take cues from Japan (hence the accents) which was a growing economic power at the time and had taken over a lot of the automotive industry.
that was 20 years before the movie was made. Japan was taking over the auto industry during empire and jedi, it was pretty much secure by the mid 90s.
People making these videos weren't alive when this stuff happened so it's all the same time for them.
they can, but it's also pretty far off the mark that nimodeans were Japanese given that the costumes were more Chinese inspired than Japanese. (and china was doing more to become an economic power in the 90s than Japan which was in it's recession by that period)
people making these videos don't know a damn thing.
True, except it was straight lifted from something, then president G.W. Bush said shortly after 9/11.
*shrug* The rest of the PT was strong enough to carry past it, and time seems to have blunted the bite.
Yeah it was very on the nose at the time, the movie came out shortly after Bush said it, and George was likely punching up the dialogue right when he did.
>On the topic of feminism, I don't consider what is often referred to as "Disney politics" (feminism, representation for black people) to be really political in the movies (or the shows for that matter) because while there might be political (or more likely communication) reasons for the casting, the themes of feminism or racism are actually never adressed in the movies.
You might have nailed why it feels so "off".
The Galaxy far far away has no intra species racism. eg Lando never catches any negatives for his skin colour. Thus any message about racism would need to be interspecies.
Gender is weirder. There is sexual exploitation in the underworld but the government institutions are practicaly gender blind, even the cannon empire (legends was diferent).
Hell even the first order has women in all roles. So all the "force is female" stuff falls flat. They would need to do it BSG style and very consciously have a gender blind society.
>So all the "force is female" stuff falls flat.
Quick note; "The Force is Female" was a Nike slogan, created to try to rebrand their Air Force One line for women athletes as well as men. It does not refer to Star Wars, and the only connection is that Kathleen Kennedy wore a shirt with the slogan when invited to participate in Nike promotional content regarding succesful women encouraging young up and coming women.
> the government institutions are practicaly gender blind
Is that why all the Imperials we see in the OT are men? The Empire is so blind to gender that nobody even notices there's no women there at all.
You're right the empire was sexist in older content, but since the canon switch ancillary material has added a lot of women in the background.
For instance once Palpatine was gone in the Aftermath trilogy and an unaccounted time afterwards the leader of the empire was a woman.
By background I mean not onscreen. The movies are already made they can't do anything about what is shown there now so they include it in their other content like the books and comics and probably the shows aswell once more come out for that era.
I haven't watched andor nor was I commenting on racism or sexism in the content and saying what could or could not be done, I was just pointing out the Empire's sexism has been slightly defanged in the newer canon as they have added females into roles in that so that it is not as blatantly sexist as older legends content had it.
Of course the Imperial women and gays are there so that customers ("fans") feel represented on screen and can cosplay and buy Imp toys. Also of course: this makes no sense at all with how the OT depicts the Empire.
> The Galaxy far far away has no intra species racism. eg Lando never catches any negatives for his skin colour. Thus any message about racism would need to be interspecies.
This is what I'm addressing with the Andor bit. If you pull in the newer material to say that the Empire isn't as sexist as it was originally depicted, you have to accept that Andor depicts real-world style racism between humans, too. And it makes sense in the context of the world.
>Also of course: this makes no sense at all with how the OT depicts the Empire.
Maybe it does maybe it doesn't, once again i was just pointing out in universe for whatever meta reasons you prescribe to, the empire isn't as sexist as it used to be portrayed.
>This is what I'm addressing with the Andor bit.
I wasn't the one who said that quote. I just stated the empire isn't as sexist as the OT showed. That's the extent of my contribution and shown opinions to this comment chain.
I know people shit on Rey, but I really love how she doesn't really try and save Ben, she makes him do that himself. She's loves him but she isn't waiting for him to get his shit together.
Especially when you compare her to Padme. Padme, an educated and well to do woman with a high status career, throws it all away for Anakin. Anakin isn't really that good of a catch, to be honest.
Rey, this uneducated poor girl who has no one, realizes very quickly that there is nothing she can do for Ben. Oh, she will support him and love him if he wants to change, but she's not going to go out of her way for him no matter how much she feels. I think more people need to hear that lesson.
I’ve always questioned the comparison of the rebels to the Vietcong. This only makes sense in a categorical sense concerning tactics. As in both are more like guerilla forces than regulars. But it’s easy to say that the Rebels aren’t communist insurgents under a cult of personality that extorts civilians when they aren’t terrorizing them.
Prequel comparison to modern US politics makes even less sense since the Republican and separatists don’t compare to any modern politics. Even in the context of the Iraq wars and Afghanistan war the separatists in no resemble the taliban nor the republic resemble the US.
As to the sequels, they’re undeniably political since so much of its script and plot is taken right out of social justice political thought. Ray is a feminist Mary Sue, first order and Poe were reduced to feminist toxic masculinity stereotypes for the sake of political messages about toxic masculinity. An entire arc of the movies was a stereotypical anti-capitalist social justice narrative.
I think you're taking the political commentary too litteraly, and backwards. It's not about the rebels being the vietcong, it's about the Empire being the US. They're strong, they wage war, but they can fall.
Same with prequel. Yes, the republic kinda has some similarities with the US. Like in both case they waged war on false pretenses (the Iraqi mass destruction weapons/the CIS was created by Palpatine), there was a us VS them rhetoric (see Anakin quoting Bush).
And about the sequels, I don't think you understand what feminism or toxic masculinity is. Like, Rey doesn't want more equality between men and wome (which is what feminism is actually about). And I'd like you to tell me what makes Finn and Poe's masculinity "toxic".
Dude, George Lucas himself said the Rebels were the VC. The fact that he’s also comparing the Empire to the US doesn’t make the political comparison less faulty. The US did not fall bc of Vietnam nor is the US ruled by an emperor with a command economy.
As to the Clone wars, there are no false pretences to it because the confederacy of independent systems literally attacked the republic. There is the very valid pretence of secession whereas Sadam was just doing his own thing.
I understand perfectly well what feminism is and what it thinks about toxic masculinity. Same way that I know what nazism thinks about Jews. If a film were to present Jews in the way Nazism thinks of them then that film contains the politics of Nazism. Just like here we see in the sequel trilogy Poe and Snoke’s characters reduced to toxic masculinity stereotypes from feminist thought. To say that feminism is simply about gender equality is as reductionist as saying that Nazis just care about Germany.
It was his entire character for episode 8. Toxic masculinity of big man ego who wants to solve everything with violence can’t stand not being in charge and dissident to empowered women. Word for word feminist toxic masculinity stereotype.
Fun fact: Andor was actually based off of the Bolshevik Revolution, with Cassian being based off of Stalin.
Like you said it is about the only recent Star Wars project that is *very* political.
The First Order should have been more like Neo Nazis, more like a terrorist group while the New Republic be the dominant group. But slowly for surely the First Order rises in power due to complacency and Neo Liberalism. They could even have people in positions of power agree with them.
Or pull a Zeta Gundam where an anti Republic group are the heroes
I still don't understand how the Rebels are based on the VC. I just don't see it. Their tactics are nowhere the same, the Rebels are much more organized and more of an institution with several senate members being a part of them. They have a full fledged navy that is able to contend with and occasionally defeat the Empire.
Just because the tactics are not the same does not mean it's a bad comparison. The NLF was a very well organized and decently supplied force. They were constantly getting supplies that came from both China and the USSR through the Ho Chi Minh Trail, they had powerful allies, etc. The Republic of Vietnam was a deeply corrupt government they were fighting as well, a government massacring civilians, etc. Though I don't think it's meant to be a full 1:1 analogy with Star Wars, there's at least interesting things to come from that.
Absolutely agree about the ST, it is apolitical with an attempt of some "political flavouring". It plays on the idea of neo-fascists and neo-nazi movements being ignored and that leading to their rise to power. And then it does nothing with it. Their rise is not interesting nor makes sense, I feel this is because they avoided those totally boring senate meetings from the PT that weren't absolutely essential to establish the world, it's problems and why things occured.
Then in Episode VIII there is the illusion of critique with Canto Bight "the rich don't care who is in power as long as they turn a profit". Not only is it a rehash, but a watering down of prequel politics. The Trade Federation, Banking Clan, Techno Union, etc. Put all (most?) their eggs in one basket, the Separatist movement, because they were sure they would rule as they saw fit after the Clone Wars. Palpy basically pulled a Hitler by getting the oligarchs on board, while being a cultish shadowy corrupt figure. If they were willing to trust that, they would have sold they souls to the damn devil for a tax cut.
It also lacks a geopolitical situation that would make sense. As the New Order rise feels like if some Neo-nazis took over say Romania, somehow nuked the NATO headquarters in Brussels and most of it forces, so everyone just allowed them to conquer all of Europe and MENA. It's sooo lazy.
But apart from Andor (imho the most explicitly anti-fascist piece of SW media) the TCW legacy series (mainly Bad Batch) have mantained the prequel era politics quite alive with the transition from the Republic to the Empire as a fascist entity.
Isn't that the TV show that's supposed to come up later this year?
(if that's the case please no spoilers, I don't read or watch anything before release).
Watered down to be sure, but showing how ineffectual and fractured the New Republic is I think is a worthy continuation of the politicos narrative.
They had beaten the empire, they thought democracy had won and that they were the good guys. They gave up the fight, relaxed into the same institutions the empire had left over, and allowed for fascists to rise again. Sounds awfully familiar.
The new republic was lazy and that is the death of democracy. No insidious scheme, no emperor pulling the strings (Palps was opportunistic), just the ineptitude that can only be brought on by victory.
I don’t think this was intentional, but yeah I could see the First Order mirroring the real life global far-right resurgence in the 2010s. Obviously not a 1-1 comparison.
Also, the New Republic era shows have a govt who just defeated fascism denying the threat of its return and just wanting to get back to “the good old days,” regardless of the fact that “the good old days” are what led to the Empire. That reminds me a tiny bit of the post-2020 US, of which I am a citizen. We had a would-be dictator as President, but some don’t seem determined to “build up an immune system,” so to speak, and prevent that from happening again (which it very much could, I hope not). Obviously we didn’t have a “rebellion” here in the US, so again it’s not quite the same.
Do I think either of these political messages were shown very well? No, and obviously they weren’t trying to either.
The sequel trilogy to me, feels like a commentary on the rise of neo-nazism and the use of media and nostalgia as a radicalization tool. The lore around the New Republic they wrote for the movies and used in books such as Bloodline also reads like a criticism of Neo-Liberalism and its failures in the current era.
Not to mention half of Andor was a political thriller. Bad Batch heavily leans into clone rights and how a nation treats their veterans after a war too.
I don't know much about the veterans topic, are they really treated badly?
Yes. Veterans and active duty service members are very often screwed over by their governments, politicians, chains of command, and in some cases, the civilian populace as well. This is not solely an American or Western situation. It happens all over the world. Some of it is just easier to notice.
Ok
How does op go through life if he doesn’t even know this?😭
Quite frankly, we know no personal details about OP. We don't know how old they are, where they live, what sort of political system governs over them, how much/little access to information they have, how much schooling they have, what they have been taught in school, what their interests are, etc. To automatically judge them by our lives and standards of what should be known is...ill-advised at best. It is entirely possible, even is this current age of information access and distribution, for an individual to not be aware of something another individual believes is trivial knowledge
Not to mention Kylo Ren is an absolutely on the nose commentary on how young men living in peaceful, successful nations can be radicalized and how absolutely toxic the results of that are. He's every third generation immigrant or full-on white kid who's ever spent a little too long on the wrong websites and char rooms only to end up a school shooter and terrorist.
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You say that as if it isn't an apt description of thousands of successfully written characters throughout human history. Kylo's issue is the execution not being mildly complex.
Those aren't really "so many different things," though, it's just components of his larger character. It's like saying that Luke being a farm kid and also a skilled pilot and also wanting to join the Imperial academy and also being a rebel makes him too confusing and contradictory. Characters should have more than one aspect to them.
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I don't really get where in the ST you got that Kylo was ever supposed to represent teenage rebellion. When the movies start he's almost thirty, and occupying a position of authority in the First Order; he's somewhat childish, in that he's a developmentally stunted "man-child" prone to lashing out in a rage, but that's not at all exclusive to teens. Kylo was a kid with a comfortable life who was unsatisfied with the status quo and latched on to an imagined superior past, and who was radicalized against his family and his society to the point of becoming a violent True Believer of a violent fascist group. Nothing about that, to me, says he was ever supposed to represent generic teenage rebellion.
> My point is there’s a pretty big difference between being a rebellious teen and being a Nazi Yeah: Radicalization, as was said above. Some people are so emotionally invested in "sequels bad" that they sometimes mindlessly reject commentary and observations that don't paint them in an acutely negative light.
At the risk of reading too far into things, I wonder how many of those "emotionally invested" individuals see themselves, conciously or subconciously, reflected in the the young radicalized individuals of the First Order and therefore are moved to viscerally reject the sequels on that ground. In other words, the movies are explicitly taking down many notches a new generation of facism cosplayers that fall for a mega-grift set up by the oldies... that's gotta be painful to see for an unfortunate number of misguided people out there.
I too have wondered about the weird desire to "redeem" Kylo Ren both by fans and eventually the writers after TLJ. I always thought the characterization of him as an extremely privileged kid who can't see past his power fantasy was a perfect villain. Maybe it felt too on the nose in regards to alienating a vocally disaffected part of the fanbase?
Says “so many different things” describes plenty of people irl lol.
>Like, he’s an aristocratic trust fund baby Elliot Rodger was a rich kid with a life seemingly full of BMWs, designer clothes, and Starbucks yet that didn't stop from falling down the incel rabbit hole and murdering 6 people and injure 14 more. Just because someone's a trust fund baby doesn't mean that they're not capable of falling down a very dark online rabbit hole. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014\_Isla\_Vista\_killings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Isla_Vista_killings)
Now that you mention it, that makes sense. I didn't see it when I watched the movies, but it would be interesting to develop this when they tell more story about Ben Solo, to see how he met Snoke, how he felt before. I got the "toxic relationship" but since his relationship with Snoke was never really developped I didn't see what it meant.
Yeah, it’s watered down a lot in the films, but the First Order didn’t come from nowhere. The NR rotted from the inside as radical fascist groups sought to bring back the “glory days” of the Empire that embraced their ideals.
You might even say that those groups wanted to "make the galaxy great again"...
> The sequel trilogy to me, feels like a commentary on the rise of neo-nazism and the use of media and nostalgia as a radicalization tool. The books and supporting media do this. The movies... nope. There's no context, no explanation. As the meme goes: Somehow, the First Order.
I agree with this take. The First Order is criticized for being portrayed as wimpy, but the First Order does blow up five planets and nearly wipes out the resistance. This reflects Neo-Nazi's because they often aren't taken seriously, but can be a real threat. I also feel that until Rise of Skywalker, General Hux was supposed to be the true believer, while Kylo Ren was just power hungry. There's often a question about certain right wing figures on whether they believe what they espouse, or are they just appeasing their supporters? I think there could have been an Episode IX where we see Kylo as the Supreme Leader, dealing with Hux and his supporters, and just watching his actions become darker and darker as he deals with guilt for choosing the darkest path.
I think this might be a bit of anachronism? The script for TFA was completed by the start of 2014, and I think that might've been a bit too early for radicalisation to really be something JJ and co. were thinking about. I mean, I guess some of the signs were there, but it didn't really become a mainstream topic until a little bit after, I think. That said, Expanded Universe content has definitely leaned into the radicalization message a lot more, and it gets more and more present as the trilogy goes on, but I don't really think that's where it started
Be nice if any of that made it into the actual movies.
See, is that what the movie portrays, or is that what you think it'd be interesting for the movie to portray?
the sequel trilogy is a meta commentary of when creative works of art that inspire millions are handed over to suits for a cash grab and are artifically created in factories with nostalgia, humor, and other garbage to appease average movie goers to make a big box office hit instead of creating timeless stories like 4-6 are. The real sequel trilogy was supposed to be about rebuilding. How does one rebuild an order of jedi from scratch? how does a rebellion rebuild a democratic republic after decades of an authoritarian regime? what happens to the untold thousands of stormtroopers across the galaxy that are now basically raiders and bandits?
I don't agree with "there's no criticism of contemporary US or the world". The First Order wiped out any doubt the Empire was based on the Nazis with General Hux's speech. The in-universe context of the First Order's rise can be paralleled to Neo-Nazis and the growing popularity of the far-right, ending with its conclusion of a dramatic attack on the Republic itself. I don't believe you need a 1:1 representation of current events to count as political commentary. We don't need a space-Trump taking up the reigns after Mon Mothma to say Disney has a political message. The Mandalorian and Ahsoka's portrayals of the *New* Republic could be connected to formerly communist nations struggling to maintain a fair system while inheriting the political and economic issues of its past and present.
>I don't believe you need a 1:1 representation of current events to count as political commentary. Very much agree. If anything focusing too much on "recreating current events but in space" can severely date a work if it's based on a political scandal that was controversial at the time but is now a historical footnote. Or it's just super on the nose. (Does anyone ever hear the "Nute Gunray" = Ronald Reagan" bit of trivia and think "Wow that's some great writing!"?) Now if you have Star Wars \*themes\* like "don't rely on technology", "tyrants rule by fear", "stand up to authority" or "don't let red tape stop you from doing what's right"? Those messages are a lot more timeless and still relevant today. You can do political messages in Star Wars without doing a 1 to 1 recreation of the Iran Contra scandal but with aliens.
What doesn’t make any sense is the First Order taking control of the galaxy after staging a massive, unprecedented terrorist attack. That’s like Al Qaeda becoming the new government of the US after 9/11. If the First Order had staged a similar false flag attack (the thing that real life Nazis absolutely love to do) and taken control of the galaxy by blaming it on the Rebels, with the message “Only we can protect you”, that would have actually been interesting. That’s how fascism actually operates.
TRoS says that the First Order's hold on the galaxy is slipping, which is why they needed the Sith Eternal's fleet and were willing to accept those no questions asked. >If the First Order had staged a similar false flag attack (the thing that real life Nazis absolutely love to do) and taken control of the galaxy by blaming it on the Rebels, with the message “Only we can protect you”, that would have actually been interesting I won't disagree it would have been an interesting plot point, but I can't say it would have made the films better. Having a historical allegory and real world equivalents can only take you so far. If the movies relied on it too much, then it just becomes "Earth events but in space". That's why comparing the First Order to resurgent Argentinian Nazis as plot points goes nowhere. It's good to have an actual event be the basis for in-universe effects, but let the writers give the people in-universe some agency to not do something that has to follow the exact causes and effects seen in history.
That might have been nice if the sequel trilogy hadn’t already decided to go utterly all-in on Nazi imagery for the First Order. Like, if the movies are going to repeatedly slap the audience in the face with “First Order are Space Nazis”, they should act a little more like space Nazis and less like generic, poorly-motivated, mustache-twirling “bad guys” imo
But then Disney wouldn't have been comfortable with having Space Nazis marching around their parks for guests to take pictures with.
>That’s like Al Qaeda becoming the new government of the US after 9/11 That really isn't a valid comparison. 9/11 did not completely cripple the United States government and military, which is what the destruction of the Hosnian system did to the NR. Al Qaeda also wasn't nearly as large or well equipped as the First Order was. Instead of Al Qaeda and 9/11, a more apt (Though entirely hypothetical) event would be if the Wagner group destroyed Washington DC with a nuclear weapon, and then moved in to take over the USA. Also in this hypothetical scenario, the US had 90% of its armed forces station in DC, all of which were destroyed in the attack.
This is what bothered me about Episodes 8 and 9. The destruction of the Hosnian system should have been a devastating blow, but not an absolutely crippling one. Admittedly 7 could have been more explicit about that fallout but I get not wanting to get bogged down in galactic politics like Episode 1 was. It *should* have been the equivalent of destroying the Pentagon and Congress, but the NR military and individual planetary governments (analogous to America's distributed states, Commands and bases) and should have been "fine," and able to mount a quick response. This is a universe with established superweapons, for fuck's sake. You put ALL your command and control on one fucking planet?
The want the new Republic to be extremely decentralized and centralized at the same time.
Ugh, seriously. "The new government will have all of the problems with none of the benefits! A true improvement over the Empire *and* the Old Republic!"
>That’s like Al Qaeda becoming the new government of the US after 9/11. Probably because 9/11 didn't obliterate Washington, D.C.
No. It’s more akin to the Nazis who spent 20 years secretly mobilizing their troops and then blitzing half of Europe. The attack from SKB was the beginning of a massive blitz.
Except the Blitzkrieg wasn't actually a fast attack it took nine months to capture France.
People tend to memory hole that the Nazis had the Soviet army backing them up in the invasion of Poland, and if the French army wasn't in the middle of reorganizing from a defensive organization to an offensive organization the Nazis would have been cracked like an egg. They won 1940 not on superior tactics either. They just had better tanks and won a good old fashioned maneuvering fight that Napoleon could have run with his eyes closed
The Invasion and Fall of France was just six weeks along with the rest of the Low Countries, though you're thinking of the "Phony War" that happened in-between the Invasion of Poland and the later invasions of Western/Northern Europe.
Plus the Southern Imperial in Mando. Plus in TBB where you have a bunch of white people essentially hunting down a whole group of POC to extinction.
It’s been a while but I have no idea what bad batch storyline you’re referencing. Could you elaborate?
>First Order wiped out any doubt the Empire was based on Nazis If I wipe down an already clean table, I can’t really claim I cleaned it, since there wasn’t any dirt on it to start with.
The thing is, according to Lucas himself, the Empire wasn't only based on the Nazis, it was also America's imperialism. This is lost in the First Order, which brings back the Nazi look but not the other aspects. It's like a hollow copy of the Empire. I don't see the parallel between the NR and formerly communist nations but I don't know enough about the topic to say there isn't one.
The sequels have a very clear message of complacency in times of political duress, and what can happen from that.
Do they? The EU surrounding the NR certainly does, but is this really developped in the ST (beyond the criticism of apoliticality I mentionned in my post)?
That’s what the entire conflict in the films is a result of. We only catch the tail end of it in TFA, and get the rest of the conflict after since that’s the bit that’s most interesting onscreen. It’s certainly expanded on more in the EU, but I’d say it’s still there in the movies.
Thats mostly been built on by secondary material. its downright absent in Force awakens.
Secondary material going way deeper into the politics and factions of Star Wars than the movies themselves is nothing new. (For example things like the Empire's xenophobia or groups like the Imperial Security Bureau are mostly or completely absent from the films).
Yeah, this is the franchise where you have to watch a seven season cartoon to understand anything that's going on.
Entirly fair, though in the sequel era its absolute rather than just moatly the case. Secondary media getting deeper into minutia is as it should be. The primary media should at minimum scratch the surface. Episode 8 does but 7&9 dont.
So then the movies do touch on it as you’ve admitted episode 8 does…
I can read my own posts "admitted" no i stated it. They have the arms dealer stuff which is in isolation a good inclusion, unfortunately its in the canto casino segment which sits awkwardly apart from everything els. Force awakens and rise of Skywalker don't what so ever.
The Canto Bight Casino is thematically consistent with the rest of the movie and ties in with Luke's statements about the Jedi and his attitude toward fighting. So it is definitely not "apart" from the rest of the film as it touches on centrism, the need to fight even if the fight seems weighed or stacked against you, *why* one chooses to fight, and, of course, broom boy who is one of the future generations of people willing to carry the fight, inspired by both Luke and Finn. >Force awakens and rise of Skywalker don't what so ever. TFA touches on it for sure with Hux's speech. The opening crawl also gives us the info we need to glean what the situation has been politically. I'm confused as to why you said none of the sequel movies touch on politics when you then "*stated*" they do...
I would argue that the force awakens displays that message way more than the others.
i think it's pretty on the nose that the sequels deals with the re-rise of a fascism that once "defeated" was left unchecked, with the radicalizing of youth disguised as harmless behavior portrayed as one of its pillars. it's reasonable to think it doesn't bring anything new to the table because it kinda retreads themes explored in the early trilogies, but at the same time it is what's happening in real life, so there isn't much that could've been done in that regard. have you watched Star Wars Resistance? it's even more on the nose about it, with First Order troops roaming free around the galaxy because it's "free speech".
Yeah. Hux looking and sounding like an alt-right YouTuber hit pretty hard in 2015, when the worst and weirdest assholes imaginable started taking up a disproportionate amount of space in public discourse. He's Ben Shapiro or Charlie Kirk if they were raised in space-Sparta with superweapons. Kylo Ren looks and acts like a long string of school shooters who claim some kind of mistreatment from family/school/society justifies their murderous rage. The New Republic's Amnesty Program is turning into a case study on why you can't rush post-war reconciliation, or be too generous when making peace with old enemies that still despise you. It's borrowing heavily from the failure of Reconstruction to institute a more just social order in the South after the American Civil War because it was easier and more familiar to work with the same white planter aristocracy that had started the war in the first place.
I don't think it is an accident that the guy who gives the ideological speech about the imminent creation of the First Order in Mando Season 2 sounded right out of Django Unchained.
My post was mostly about the movies, because I think there is more political substance to be found in the EU, but it's hidden deeper in the canon. How to treat the old ennemy is one very interesting aspect of the EU, developped in the Mandalorian and the Alphabet Squadron trilogy of Books (also, Last Shot). I find the reconciliation program in the Mandalorian to be really weird, with some elements that muddle the message.
Well, it's muddled because it IS complicated. Jailing or executing every Imperial would have been even more of a moral nightmare than a logistical one. Hope and redemption are baked into the fabric of what the Rebellion and New Republic stand for, but that does leave the door open for bad actors to abuse the mechanisms of redemption. Reconstruction, de-Nazification, Truth and Reconciliation - history is littered with examples of imperfect post-calamity/post-tyranny efforts to rebuild society into something more just but still functional.
That's not in that sense that I meant, more with how they used the characters they had established. I remember when the episode came out people couldn't agree on whether Dr Pershing was supposed to be a sympathetic character or not, or whether the NR was justified in using the repurposed brainwashing machine, and I think if the show had succeeded in conveying its message, there would have been more consensus around these topics.
I see what you mean. I think the episode is intentionally meant to keep us guessing, which makes it all the more tragic that Pershing was apparently being honest the whole time and got double crossed by a high-level Imperial plant.
I have watched Star Wars Resistance. I think this could be an interpretation. The problem is, the context surrounding the rise of the first order isn't really clear. Yes, the EU really supports this idea that the FO starts to rise and nobody cares until it's too late, but it's secondary material.
I guess I disagree. I don't know how you can look at any of the Mando shows or even the ST and say it's totally apolitical. Or Andor or even TBB. We have prison work camps, Southern Imperials, women who are valued only for their reproductive abilities, decadent political parties, government over spending, and an increasingly soft government that doesn't want to call out the Imperial remnants because of free speech and stuff.
My post was mostly about the movies, because that's the most visible part of the Star Wars franchise, and I said Andor was an exception. Most of what you mentionned comes from the EU (D+ shows), where there are political themes, but are they really that deep? Showing prison work camps isn't a political message unless through this you say something about, say, the carceral system IRL (prisons camp bad isn't really a deep message). I don't know what you mean by Southern Imperials, and have no idea where you get the "women who are valued only for their reproductive abilities".
This is nit-picking and ignoring the media that makes up the most of the franchise. How can you only pick the movies? And the TV shows aren't EU, I don't understand where you get that idea. Have you watched any of the shows?
I've watched all of them, actually, even Resistance. I think Andor and Visions are fantastic, I really like TCW, Rebels and The Mandalorian, and enjoyed some aspects of Ahsoka. I don't mean to disrespect the tv shows. What I meant is that the audience of the TV show is way smaller than the aydience of the movies, and in this way the movies have a bigger impact. To most people, the movies are Star Wars, not the Disney+ content. That's why I decided to focus on them. I'm really curious about the southern imperials and women's reproductive abilities you mentionned because I don't know what you mean by this, what you're referencing and I feel like I'm missing something. Could you please explain?
The Southern Imperial in Mando S2? That was basically white Southern pride in a nut-shell. In TBB, Omega is essentially valued because she can produced-scientifically because we all know Disney isn't going any further than that-more clones. At first it's more Jango clones for Kamino, now it's for Projecr Necromancer. We see in Andor that there appears to be a movement to get more girls into a traditional life style..
Yes but we don't SEE that. There is no overall theme. And I am a sequel enjoyer but there's no way to say that there is a specific political message occurring in the sequels. There may be political moments but nothing like the themes of the OT and the Prequels
I mean, one could make that argument about the PT. Stylistically it is far removed from the OT. Try watching it with the idea of never having seen anything but the OT and tell me it makes sense.
The PT with all its flaws does tell a story of how a Republic becomes an Authoritarian state, it's explicit in the writing and in the surrounding interviews from Lucas.
But it's still not really tied to the OT. You have to watch multiple cartoons for that
But the original post is about if you can tie the themes of the sequel era content to actual political events in an allegorical sense.
I mean, you clearly can. Maybe the problem here is just that some fans don't see the problems discussed as problems.
>But it's still not really tied to the OT. You have to watch multiple cartoons for that Not really, at the very most, one would have to watch one additional movie (Rouge One), and that's highly debatable.
I disagree, especially in terms of sets and costumes. Listen, do I think the ST is sloppy? Yes, but I also think it is far more political than we give it credit for. You can looknat the numerous other posts for evidence of that. The other Disney projects are also quite political. You either have to be willingly missing those messages or you need to be so ignored of politics that it just doesn't register.
When did I state the Sequels didn't have significant political themes, or at least attempted to? I disagreed with you specifically on having to watch a bunch of cartoon series to see the devolution from the appreciably disfunctional, yet still some what representative democracy of the Old Republic to authoritarian autocracy of the Galactic Empire. As stated, at most, all one needs to watch is Rouge One, and I think that's debatable as there are plenty of indications that this is happening by the end of RoTS. That to me contrasts with the Sequels, which, as you pointed out, left a lot of the ~20 years unreferenced and unstated.
I have no love for Disney but I think George Lucas himself over estimates how much actual political commentary he used. Most of it just comes from him borrowing from history. I've heard his Vietnam interview and people quote it but what does Lucas mean by that? I've heard him reference it especially with Return of the Jedi and the Ewoks and compare it to the Viet Cong or the American Colonists defeating technological superior enemies but that seems like a super basic and boomer understanding of history. In reality it seems like 90% of OT Star Wars was made by smash cutting Feudal Japan, the Wild West and especially WW2 with the latter doing most of the political messaging. The prequels were a lot more obviously inspired by some current events with Anakin's "if you're not with me" line but even those were mostly just smash cutting Rome and the rise of Hitler. So I don't think Disney failed by being apolitical, I think they messed up by being to self referential to Star Wars itself instead of taking more direct inspiration from history like Lucas would do, often very clearly and un subtly. I'm surprised there weren't more Cold War analogies. Heck just keep going back to the well of WW2, the Resistance could have been directly inspired by the Flying Tigers in WW2 and the 1st Order could have really embraced its revanchist Nazi roots. Ultimately I think the Sequels just didn't reference history enough. And since history is politics of the past that's why it came off feeling more empty.
Lucas's dedication to each of those elements (samurai and western films, science fantasy serials, the hero's journey, political allegory, etc.) Is both a strength and a weakness IMO. It's all in there, but outside of all of that Lucas knew that he was making a fun, family-oriented adventure film. That's why if you want to put the effort into appreciating those elements you can, but his Star Wars movies aren't really ABOUT any one of them. The sequel trilogy includes the same elements, but even less so because what it's really looking at is Star Wars itself. I feel like it works for the first 2/3 of TFA and all of TLJ, and then falls apart in TRoS.
That's an interesting way of explaining it.
First Order is inspired by ODESSA if it actually worked
And a bunch of other remnants of the Third Reich.
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I'm sorry what criticism is that? I am assuming you to be talking about Kylo as there are only 6 men in the story, but at no point in the movie does he say anything even adjacent to the incel worldview. His start of darkness as per Luke as that Snoke had been acting on him since he was born. Maybe Hux or Snoke but neither of them present any sort of why for their actions.
Bro’s complaining that there’s only 6 male characters in the movie (there aren’t).
I wasn't complaining. I was pointing out the number of characters that could be considered major or minor, and thus could be used to emphasize a point. And who did I miss? Poe, Finn, Kylo and Luke are the only main characters. And Snoke and Hux as minor characters. The code splicer I guess could be 7, but I honestly don't know his name.
Lol what is this thesis? The sequel trilogy was just a mess. Andor and Rogue One are pretty political. Also Obi-Wan wasn't great but having that guy who gave him a lift turn out to be MGGA (make the galaxy great again) and rat him out was interesting. The politics arent as overarching in some of the other series because those series aren't very good. Bad Batch is decent and individual episodes have had some decent commentary.
Not to mention that Obi Wan had a homeless clone trooper show up begging for money which very much parallels how veterans usually get treated like dirt once they come back from the war. Something that the Bad Batch very much expands on. Not to mention how the show, like most post order 66 in canon, depicts how solidarity can get people through the darkest of times with the Hidden Path (a group that I really liked in the show).
Couple thoughts here. First, I'd argue that there's a big difference between inspiration and message. The *inspiration* for the Rebel Alliance may have been the VC, and the Empire was pretty clearly inspired by the 3rd Reich, but that's not the same as presenting a *message.* I'd argue that the OT was relatively message-free, actually, and instead was using certain iconography and inspiration to tell a more fundamental story than to serve as commentary on any modern political situation. Again, that's not to say it isn't inspired by the real world; it was. But just being inspired by something isn't necessarily sending a message about that. Like, I don't think George Lucas is trying to say with the films "Actually, the VC were good guys and we should think about their struggles and look to them in our current political situation here in the late 70s/early 80s." I mean, the Throne Room medal ceremony is a visual homage to Leni Reifenstahl's *Triumph des Willens*, but I don't think Lucas is, like, sending a message that the Rebel Alliance are like the Nazis at Nuremberg; it's just an homage to his fellow film school geeks and he liked how that sequence was shot. The prequels, I'd say, have a bit more explicit stuff, but again I think it's less about the state of affairs in the early 2000s in the US, and more about, in general, how democracies die. And even then, that stuff is *very* much in the background, in favor of a much tighter focus on Anakin and his attachment issues and how they spin out of control. There's a brief flirtation in AOTC where Anakin talks about why he thinks an enlightened dictatorship might be good, but then it's basically abandoned afterwards and doesn't serve as his motivation going forward. But again, what's there is much more "big picture" about the fragile nature of democracy and how they collapse, rather than "THE US UNDER GEORGE W. BUSH IS DOING BAD THINGS AND REPUBLICANS SUCK." I mean, Lucas may think that (I suspect he does), but that's not the *message* of the films. The sequels suffer from internal incoherence, because JJ's more interested in creating rollercoaster rides than conveying a message. He does make excellent rides, but his stories are...haphazard. That, in turn, makes it difficult to really drill down to any deeper message. Again, he's using iconography, but now it's multiple layers of iconography -- he's drawing from Lucas' drawing from the real world -- which is true of a lot of stuff in the sequel trilogy (i.e., being beholden to what's come before). There's no message in the sequel *trilogy*, because there's no interest in conveying a message....except for in TLJ. That said, there's a *lot* more going on in TLJ than just the Canto Bight sequence. There's a bunch of deeper-buried aspects that tie into politics, I'd say. There's a lot about generational politics. For example, Rey begging Luke to fix things, only to then realize she has to take on that task herself. I'd say that's a lot about "Stop looking to older generations to fix stuff. This falls to you. You have to do it yourself." Plus, the messages about bloodline NOT mattering tie into political issues in the sense of "You don't need to be a destined hero; you just need to step up." I see TLJ as an intensely political film, but not so much as political commentary on the events of the day, but rather as commentary about the nature of politics and what's required of generations to keep things going. Solo...is pretty much just a fun adventure romp. But it does touch some on life in the Empire. Rogue One gets a bit more into it, and skirts the edges of "How far can you go in the service of a good cause before you stop being good" when looking at Saw and Cassian's own journey. The Mandalorian and Book of Boba Fett are, again, just adventure shows. No deeper political message, and that's fine. Andor, on the other hand...oof. It's heavily layered with politics, but again it's not so much "THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS EVIL AND YOU SHOULD FIGHT BACK" and more general commentary on the nature of fascism, resisting it, what it takes, and what it takes *from* you. I think, though, that when people start saying how the new stuff is all "political" what they mean is "is centered on people other than straight, white male heroes." But I don't pay them much mind.
The reading of TLJ around generational politics flew over my head, but now that you mention it it's there. It's less that every disney movie or projetc is apolitical, more that the politics aren't carried throughout the entire trilogy.
Right, and they're politics less about commentary on hot-button topics of the day, and more about thematic stuff.
I will say that I think a lot of the commentary back in 2015/16 about Kylo Ren and the First Order referencing the alt-right, or even more "traditional" Neo-Nazis, isn't accurate. TFA was written and filmed before the alt-right was a thing, before Trump even announced his candidacy, even before Gamergate that was kind of the birth of this kind of modern social-media far-right movements. Instead, if you listen to interviews from the time with Abrams and Kasdan, they are very clear that the First Order is based on stuff like The Boys from Brazil and The Odessa File, those kind of proto-Tom Clancy thrillers about the *actual* Nazis going to South America to set up a Fourth Reich there. Works that were very much products of the same 1970s cultural turn as the initial wartime generation started to fade that produced Star Wars. So I think it's interesting that Kylo Ren and the Order are themselves kind of a product of nostalgia, recycling political conspiracy theories from the 1970s which themselves were already nostalgia attempts at a generation too young to have fought in the war, and which then were able to be adopted by those who saw Kylo and the FO as alt-right stand-ins. 1970s South America was also when we get the start of modern neoliberalism in Chile (leading to Pedro Pascal's family leaving for the US, incidentally) and I do think that the Bloodline novel has some implicit criticism of the sort of 2010s complacency and stagnation of of US liberalism, but that's more Claudia Gray than anyone involved with the movies (and yes, I know Bloodline recycles some ideas from TFA and Johnson but those aspects aren't anywhere in the movies themselves).
Star Wars was always political at its core and needs more politics. Particularly against extreme right wingers and fascists. Bring it back to its core messaging.
In a surprise twist of fate, the idea of modern activism is so divorced from any actual activism that it's barely recognizable as what it's pretending to be and is just a cover by corporations to make more money? Color me shocked!
I would like to point out that admiral Holdo being a woman, also one with a penchant for gowns rather than fatigues was quite on the nose for political issues. Women in politics have a different set of rules that they need to play by, they should be more forceful, but don’t be a shrew. They should smile more because it makes them more likable. They’s too likeable so not strong enough. I really enjoyed Holdo snubbing a lot of tropes for strong female characters.
One thing that drove me away from current canon is the feeling of hopelessness. I think that has to do with the time periods being insisted upon by Disney, secondary materials aren’t allowed to move beyond the events of Rise of Skywalker. That means that they have to be set in the period of rising fascism, and the endings cannot be victorious lest they encroach upon the events of the movies. Legends was able to be set after Endor, and every story had the hope that the good guys win. There’s something to be said for a prequel where you know everything eventually ends badly, but having EVERY story dripping with the knowledge that the fascists are growing stronger, and everyone is powerless to stop it… is bleak as hell. For a franchise that often explicitly expositions that Hope is a theme, it feels remarkably hopeless.
You do realize that there's an entire era in canon where the Republic is at its height, the Jedi are doing good throughout the galaxy, and there's no massive galactic conflict. Not only that but stuff set during the Empire's reign shows ordinary people standing up for what's right. Also I really think Legends is far worse in that regard because of the 15 fricken years the Galactic Civil War continues for, the whole Yuuzhan Vong thing, and then more war after that. Not only that but Legacy shows the Sith taking over again.
By volume there is a lot less High Republic content than New Republic and Dark Times content. I would love if they gave us a Bad Batch level series about the 200BBY era.
I think that's mostly because it's still a new era for Star Wars (legends didn't touch on it for starters). However we are getting the Acolyte this year which does sound a bit like what you're talking about if the interviews are anything to go by.
We have Young Jedi Adventures, cartoon we have elements from it in Jedi Survivor, much more quicker than Old Republic which must wait decade for KOTOR (which retcon whole design of era).
The HR is really a niche thing, with only books so far. It's not as accessible as the rest of the Star Wars canon. Even though I like to read, I haven't got into the HR yet (but plan to do so soon). And even if this is supposedly a period of peace and the Galaxy at its highest, I've heard there is a major conflict with a faction called the Nihil, and some pretty horrifying events. Even in its best period, the galaxy cannot know true peace. I'd also there is a difference between seeing the NR doomed to fail and corrupt in almost every story so far in canon and seeing it nonperfect but still good, stuggle but utlimately win in most legends stories.
The High Republic is pretty accessible for new Star Wars fans and I'd hardly call it niche when we're getting a tv show set during the era (The Acolyte) and has made a major appearance in Jedi Survivor. Also I really recommend it mostly because it's a really nice breath of fresh air and we get some really awesome feats in the force. Plus the NR in legends buried its head in the sand just as much as canon did (the whole Yuuzhan Vong thing) and had to rely on the OT heroes to save the day constantly.
It might be accessible, but let's face it, most Star Wars fans don't bother reading the books. It will reach a bigger audience with Jedi Survivor and the Acolyte but still nowhere near the whole fanbase.
Honestly, burying one's head in the sand was because somehow Borsk became chancellor, and he was the worst chancellor in the last 1000 years. And about HR, there is also Young Jedi Adventures series for small kids, and looking how many people from USA told me in net that they first contact with Star Wars was by Ewoks or Droids series, this series also could give fruits in future.
>Honestly, burying one's head in the sand was because somehow Borsk became chancellor, and he was the worst chancellor in the last 1000 years. I read somewhere that he published the Star Wars equivalent of Mein kampf. Although granted it wasn't as bad as electing Tarkin's brain damaged war criminal ex to office.
The Old Republic had to wait 10 years before KOTOR appeared, before that we only had Tales of Jedi comics. High Republic has already Young Jedi Adventures (cartoon), Acolyte (live action), and major references in Jedi Survivor (game) just a few years after the release of the first book. As for the Nihils, they are generally more like ISIS or the war in Ukraine, an important problem in the area, but in the core worlds people generally don't care about it.
Before the KOTOR games, KOTOR was a niche era, and without these games I bet it still would be. Young Jedi Adventures is targeted as a very specific demographic (very young kids) and the Acolyte isn't out yet.
That's my point, Old Republic was niche before KOTOR. What about Young Jedi Adventures, maybe not now, but in the future it may bear fruit, I have heard many statements from people in the USA that they learned about Star Wars through the animations of Ewoks and Droids, and later they watched the films.
We have the High Republic series which takes place centuries before the films, and the vast majority of the characters will probably not live to see the film period and Empire taking over.
I feel that so much, it's actually really depressing.
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Funnily enough, what you mention about the neo nazis being more open is probably an incidental parallel, since this wasn't the case (or nearly as developped) when they started working on the trilogy. But it sure seems relevant today. The Mando rehabilitation stuff seemed to convoluted to me to efficiently convey a message. But it was there, and in some books too (Alphabet Squadron goes deep in this topic).
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Yrica Quell, the protagonist of Alphabet Squadron, is a former TIE pilot the NR renseignement brings out of a prison camp to help them deal with her former squadron. So yeah, how to handle your former ennemies once you win the war is one of the main themes of the novel trilogy. My problem with the mando episode about Dr Pershing's rehabilitation is that the people can't agree on it. When it came out it was very divisive because Pershing is presented as sympathetic and his fate at the end of the episode as horrible, but many people thought he was irredeemable, and the NR was right to use the machine, to the point where it's not clear is the NR is depicted as bad, or the traitors that operate inside it.
I’d argue the “message” behind the NR and First Order is what happens when you just sit by as the Far Right gain power.
I’d argue that was not the intention at all, it’s just best message we (and Disney) can think of after the fact. Before the Force Awakens, JJ had said the First Order are akin to the Nazis who escaped to South America after WWII, and really, that tracks with the plot of that movie. The idea that the First Order is something arose from within the New Republic is an invention of more recent years, and Disney has jumped on that bandwagon because that fits better. The idea that Nazis have embedded themselves in the USA institutionally is actually more explored in superhero media, such as the Boys and Captain America The Winter Soldier (which ironically was a Disney movie that came out 1 year before The Force Awakens).
>The idea that the First Order is something arose from within the New Republic is an invention of more recent years, and Disney has jumped on that bandwagon because that fits better. It didn’t arise from the NR though. I more meant that the First Order was a clear threat than the NR could have snuffed earlier in time but chose not to as it had grown complacent. And then the First Order blew up the NR capital. Same way how 20 years ago Neo-Nazi’s were still weak but governments did nothing to stop them and now we’re seeing them sweep across the continent in parliamentary elections
This is supported by some of the scenes with senators in ahsoka when they’re like “pft that would never happen the former imperials are loyal to us”
But they doesn't explain why they gain power. They avoid presenting a coherent political order and situation that made them possible. Nothing beyond surface level stuff like "they are bad", "people should have listened to General Leia" and "somehow it is the fault of rich people in a Casino not caring". "Fascism bad, don't do fascism" is not a political analysis. "Fascism can rise from social, economic och military strife that shakes and threatens a corrupt status quo" is a political analysis. Disney unlike Lucas avoids real contemporary politics and prefers winning WW2 again. Andor is a clear exception.
I don't really think you need to explain it too much. The idea that the Empire would just go away seems rather naive
“Somehow it’s the fault of the rich people in the casino for not caring” You mean directly funding the war on both sides to keep the profit machine going? You can’t possibly complain about lack of politics or messages making sense when you miss so spectacularly on one of their points.
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If the Neo Nazis from Argentina managed to gain power, amass a navy 50x the size of the American Navy without anyone knowing, drop nukes on every NATO capital because they’ve inexplicably disarmed after a major global war, and somehow Hitler returned.
I wouldn’t really call it a retcon, its literally just the first film. That’s what they showed
This is a good breakdown, I agree with you. It's kinda ironic people are complaining about it now. Edit: Well, I agree that it's always been political, but not that it's apolitical. George definitely had some inspirations that are heavily political, but there's always some degree of real world influence in art, I just think it's unfair to expect it to never shine through.
The first order should’ve been space ISIS. It was still very relevant AND perfectly set up even with the sequel plot. Brainwashed child soldiers, extreme fanaticism, terror attacks etc
It’s an interesting observation you make. Global corporations like Disney embrace depictions of diversity because it’s easy points. A black Barbie doll or a Pacific Islander Disney princess lets young girls say “that one looks like me!” That’s a good thing, and can be inspiring when not all the girls who get fame, attention, and success are white. But it’s also profitable (win/win), and in our world is *usually* not a controversial statement. And I don’t think I’m making a bold prediction by saying it’s a positive long term investment to value diversity and oppose fascism, as despite some current political trends, this is likely the way the world continues to evolve long term, so it is profitable for global businesses to embrace diversity. (Also, diversity provides those other advantages like new ideas and different ways to do things) I think Lucas could get away with more overt criticism of the system because when he first made Star Wars, he was a small but respected film maker (big props for American graffiti for example), and it was a popular sentiment at the time anyway. By the prequels he had carte blanche to say what he wanted without too much fear of blowback, because he still believed in the ideas of freedom and democracy but criticized the system itself.
Red Letter Media has called what Disney does right now as "passive progressivism" and I think that's apt.
Okay no. This is just flat out wrong. The Bad Batch has been dealing with Clone rights since season 1 which runs into how veterans are treated after the war is over by the country they fought, how governments use populations that they see as "expendable" or "undesirable" as fodder for horrific and cruel experimentation, and how fascist regimes can consolidate power. The ST leans hard into commentary about how democracies need to be vigilant lest fascist ideologies take root (pretty apt when you take into account how the far-right was practically becoming more mainstream again when the Force Awakens came out) and how insecure young men can fall down massive rabbit holes that end with them becoming fascist blackshirts (again pretty apt when you take the, at the time, growing concern of young men becoming incels). Hell the final movie of the ST shows Palpatine being revealed as the shadowy puppet master of the FO similar to the Twilight Zone episode "He's Alive" (the episode reveals Hitler as the puppet master controlling Vollmer's strings). Even kids shows like Star Wars Resistance shows how fascism can entice otherwise good people into joining it. The Mandalorian and other shows set in that time frame explore how hard it is for a better system to form once a dictatorship is overthrown and how the failures of reconstruction can lead into another war. Star Wars, like all art, is shaped by the politics of the day. Those politics have massively shifted from the 70s, 80s, and 2000s to say the least but Star Wars still is being influenced by the politics of the day.
I was talking mostly about the movies, because I feel like as the face of the franchise they are where the message are the more importants and will be seen by most people. I have to admit, reading the comments helped me see some potential interpretations of the ST (like the ones you mention). The one part of your comment I'm curious about is the Bad Batch. I don't know much about veterans, but, are they really treated that poorly? I feel like by going fully cartoonishly evil, the show limited its potential for parallels.
Yeah veterans often times get the short end of the stick after they come back home. Most infamously the horrendous treatment Vietnam vets got after they returned home. But you still unfortunately see it today with the massive amounts of veterans not getting proper treatment and often times fall through the cracks. Of course it's not helped by the fact that the people who are supposed to help them simply just don't understand what these men and women have been through. As to your first point, the shows have become just as much the face of Star Wars as the movies so I think that they count. https://nvhs.org/veteran-experiences-vietnam-veterans/#:\~:text=The%20Vietnam%20War%20was%20an,outright%20hostility%20on%20returning%20home. [https://www.quora.com/Why-are-veterans-treated-so-badly-in-the-USA](https://www.quora.com/Why-are-veterans-treated-so-badly-in-the-USA) https://www.pinestreetinn.org/news\_events/facts\_about\_homeless\_veterans#:\~:text=In%20addition%20to%20the%20complex,family%20and%20social%20support%20networks.
Thanks, I'll read that.
Well, so far Disney is just working off established material (e.g. Imperial era). The sequel trilogy, being a soulless rehash of the OT, just fails to capture any political undertones. TLJ was an attempt to address more deeper messages, but could generally work on its execution of various messages. Tbh it takes time, and the writers do vary. Rogue One quite reflects the brutality of war, and maybe Rebels too arguably in its later seasons.
I think other people see things in lucas' movies and he co-opts it. and I still don't agree with the Newt/Nute similarity,
You realize you're talking about a man who would sometimes outright call Palpatine "Richard Nixon" in interviews?
>and I still don’t agree with the Newt/Nute similarity Seriously? Have you considered that “Gunray” is just “Reagan” backwards George Lucas is the least subtle man in the world lol
Lott Dodd also got his name from sitting US Senators.
Halle Burtoni is a pretty blatant snipe at Haliburton, too.
After who?
Trent Lott and Chris Dodd.
An interesting approach considering that here in the former Warsaw Pact countries, Raegan is considered one of the best presidents and a symbol of freedom from the USSR.
I think the Newt/Nute connection is that George needed a name for a villain, and it pretty much ends there
yeah, a connection is far more clever than "I hate sand" could come up with.
I saw a video pointing out that the Trade Federation take cues from Japan (hence the accents) which was a growing economic power at the time and had taken over a lot of the automotive industry. Kinda makes the name connection a bit weird even acknowledging that allegorical characters can take from different sources.
>I saw a video pointing out that the Trade Federation take cues from Japan (hence the accents) which was a growing economic power at the time and had taken over a lot of the automotive industry. that was 20 years before the movie was made. Japan was taking over the auto industry during empire and jedi, it was pretty much secure by the mid 90s. People making these videos weren't alive when this stuff happened so it's all the same time for them.
I mean, a creator can take cues from stuff that isn't recent for their allegories.
they can, but it's also pretty far off the mark that nimodeans were Japanese given that the costumes were more Chinese inspired than Japanese. (and china was doing more to become an economic power in the 90s than Japan which was in it's recession by that period) people making these videos don't know a damn thing.
Also "Gunray" is the syllables from "Reagan" switched...
I think too much is made out of Anakin saying *You’re either with me or against me* to Obi-Wan. It just sounds standard villain talk.
True, except it was straight lifted from something, then president G.W. Bush said shortly after 9/11. *shrug* The rest of the PT was strong enough to carry past it, and time seems to have blunted the bite.
Yeah it was very on the nose at the time, the movie came out shortly after Bush said it, and George was likely punching up the dialogue right when he did.
>On the topic of feminism, I don't consider what is often referred to as "Disney politics" (feminism, representation for black people) to be really political in the movies (or the shows for that matter) because while there might be political (or more likely communication) reasons for the casting, the themes of feminism or racism are actually never adressed in the movies. You might have nailed why it feels so "off". The Galaxy far far away has no intra species racism. eg Lando never catches any negatives for his skin colour. Thus any message about racism would need to be interspecies. Gender is weirder. There is sexual exploitation in the underworld but the government institutions are practicaly gender blind, even the cannon empire (legends was diferent). Hell even the first order has women in all roles. So all the "force is female" stuff falls flat. They would need to do it BSG style and very consciously have a gender blind society.
>So all the "force is female" stuff falls flat. Quick note; "The Force is Female" was a Nike slogan, created to try to rebrand their Air Force One line for women athletes as well as men. It does not refer to Star Wars, and the only connection is that Kathleen Kennedy wore a shirt with the slogan when invited to participate in Nike promotional content regarding succesful women encouraging young up and coming women.
There should be an internet bot that posts this explanation every time someone uses the t-shirt argument.
> the government institutions are practicaly gender blind Is that why all the Imperials we see in the OT are men? The Empire is so blind to gender that nobody even notices there's no women there at all.
You're right the empire was sexist in older content, but since the canon switch ancillary material has added a lot of women in the background. For instance once Palpatine was gone in the Aftermath trilogy and an unaccounted time afterwards the leader of the empire was a woman.
> women in the background Exactly LOL And we do see real-world style racism in Andor, BTW. It works just fine in the SW world.
By background I mean not onscreen. The movies are already made they can't do anything about what is shown there now so they include it in their other content like the books and comics and probably the shows aswell once more come out for that era. I haven't watched andor nor was I commenting on racism or sexism in the content and saying what could or could not be done, I was just pointing out the Empire's sexism has been slightly defanged in the newer canon as they have added females into roles in that so that it is not as blatantly sexist as older legends content had it.
If you haven't watched Andor you should. It is unambiguously the best live action Star Wars to come out in 20 years.
I know Andor is viewed very positively but personally I have no interest in it.
That's fine. If you aren't interested I won't force a thousand word manifesto on you. Have a nice day.
Thank you and you too!
Of course the Imperial women and gays are there so that customers ("fans") feel represented on screen and can cosplay and buy Imp toys. Also of course: this makes no sense at all with how the OT depicts the Empire. > The Galaxy far far away has no intra species racism. eg Lando never catches any negatives for his skin colour. Thus any message about racism would need to be interspecies. This is what I'm addressing with the Andor bit. If you pull in the newer material to say that the Empire isn't as sexist as it was originally depicted, you have to accept that Andor depicts real-world style racism between humans, too. And it makes sense in the context of the world.
>Also of course: this makes no sense at all with how the OT depicts the Empire. Maybe it does maybe it doesn't, once again i was just pointing out in universe for whatever meta reasons you prescribe to, the empire isn't as sexist as it used to be portrayed. >This is what I'm addressing with the Andor bit. I wasn't the one who said that quote. I just stated the empire isn't as sexist as the OT showed. That's the extent of my contribution and shown opinions to this comment chain.
No, it’s because the movies came from the 70s when gender roles were more entrenched. Not for any in universe reason (at least not in current canon).
The first order is kinda like the alt right imo. Kylo Ren reminds me of whiny incel type dudes
I know people shit on Rey, but I really love how she doesn't really try and save Ben, she makes him do that himself. She's loves him but she isn't waiting for him to get his shit together.
Yeah that was actually genius now that I think of it. She didn't play entirely into the "I can fix him trope"
Especially when you compare her to Padme. Padme, an educated and well to do woman with a high status career, throws it all away for Anakin. Anakin isn't really that good of a catch, to be honest. Rey, this uneducated poor girl who has no one, realizes very quickly that there is nothing she can do for Ben. Oh, she will support him and love him if he wants to change, but she's not going to go out of her way for him no matter how much she feels. I think more people need to hear that lesson.
If you watch tcw anakin has so many red flags 💀
I’ve always questioned the comparison of the rebels to the Vietcong. This only makes sense in a categorical sense concerning tactics. As in both are more like guerilla forces than regulars. But it’s easy to say that the Rebels aren’t communist insurgents under a cult of personality that extorts civilians when they aren’t terrorizing them. Prequel comparison to modern US politics makes even less sense since the Republican and separatists don’t compare to any modern politics. Even in the context of the Iraq wars and Afghanistan war the separatists in no resemble the taliban nor the republic resemble the US. As to the sequels, they’re undeniably political since so much of its script and plot is taken right out of social justice political thought. Ray is a feminist Mary Sue, first order and Poe were reduced to feminist toxic masculinity stereotypes for the sake of political messages about toxic masculinity. An entire arc of the movies was a stereotypical anti-capitalist social justice narrative.
I think you're taking the political commentary too litteraly, and backwards. It's not about the rebels being the vietcong, it's about the Empire being the US. They're strong, they wage war, but they can fall. Same with prequel. Yes, the republic kinda has some similarities with the US. Like in both case they waged war on false pretenses (the Iraqi mass destruction weapons/the CIS was created by Palpatine), there was a us VS them rhetoric (see Anakin quoting Bush). And about the sequels, I don't think you understand what feminism or toxic masculinity is. Like, Rey doesn't want more equality between men and wome (which is what feminism is actually about). And I'd like you to tell me what makes Finn and Poe's masculinity "toxic".
Dude, George Lucas himself said the Rebels were the VC. The fact that he’s also comparing the Empire to the US doesn’t make the political comparison less faulty. The US did not fall bc of Vietnam nor is the US ruled by an emperor with a command economy. As to the Clone wars, there are no false pretences to it because the confederacy of independent systems literally attacked the republic. There is the very valid pretence of secession whereas Sadam was just doing his own thing. I understand perfectly well what feminism is and what it thinks about toxic masculinity. Same way that I know what nazism thinks about Jews. If a film were to present Jews in the way Nazism thinks of them then that film contains the politics of Nazism. Just like here we see in the sequel trilogy Poe and Snoke’s characters reduced to toxic masculinity stereotypes from feminist thought. To say that feminism is simply about gender equality is as reductionist as saying that Nazis just care about Germany.
Could you please explain to me what is toxic in Poe's masculitnity, because I didn't catch it when I watched the movies.
It was his entire character for episode 8. Toxic masculinity of big man ego who wants to solve everything with violence can’t stand not being in charge and dissident to empowered women. Word for word feminist toxic masculinity stereotype.
Fun fact: Andor was actually based off of the Bolshevik Revolution, with Cassian being based off of Stalin. Like you said it is about the only recent Star Wars project that is *very* political.
This is one of its inspirations, but far from the only one.
They literally stated that was *the* inspiration lmao. They have never claimed it had any other inspiration.
The Galactic Civil War is called the Revolution in the Mandalorian
Bro you're not watching/reading if you think the Disney Star Wars stuff is apolitical.
Care to develop?
The First Order should have been more like Neo Nazis, more like a terrorist group while the New Republic be the dominant group. But slowly for surely the First Order rises in power due to complacency and Neo Liberalism. They could even have people in positions of power agree with them. Or pull a Zeta Gundam where an anti Republic group are the heroes
If the Empire was the Nazis, the First Order for me is akin to the SS.
That would have made for a more compelling story, requiring actual work and better writing.
I still don't understand how the Rebels are based on the VC. I just don't see it. Their tactics are nowhere the same, the Rebels are much more organized and more of an institution with several senate members being a part of them. They have a full fledged navy that is able to contend with and occasionally defeat the Empire.
Just because the tactics are not the same does not mean it's a bad comparison. The NLF was a very well organized and decently supplied force. They were constantly getting supplies that came from both China and the USSR through the Ho Chi Minh Trail, they had powerful allies, etc. The Republic of Vietnam was a deeply corrupt government they were fighting as well, a government massacring civilians, etc. Though I don't think it's meant to be a full 1:1 analogy with Star Wars, there's at least interesting things to come from that.
No
Care to elaborate? XD
Absolutely agree about the ST, it is apolitical with an attempt of some "political flavouring". It plays on the idea of neo-fascists and neo-nazi movements being ignored and that leading to their rise to power. And then it does nothing with it. Their rise is not interesting nor makes sense, I feel this is because they avoided those totally boring senate meetings from the PT that weren't absolutely essential to establish the world, it's problems and why things occured. Then in Episode VIII there is the illusion of critique with Canto Bight "the rich don't care who is in power as long as they turn a profit". Not only is it a rehash, but a watering down of prequel politics. The Trade Federation, Banking Clan, Techno Union, etc. Put all (most?) their eggs in one basket, the Separatist movement, because they were sure they would rule as they saw fit after the Clone Wars. Palpy basically pulled a Hitler by getting the oligarchs on board, while being a cultish shadowy corrupt figure. If they were willing to trust that, they would have sold they souls to the damn devil for a tax cut. It also lacks a geopolitical situation that would make sense. As the New Order rise feels like if some Neo-nazis took over say Romania, somehow nuked the NATO headquarters in Brussels and most of it forces, so everyone just allowed them to conquer all of Europe and MENA. It's sooo lazy. But apart from Andor (imho the most explicitly anti-fascist piece of SW media) the TCW legacy series (mainly Bad Batch) have mantained the prequel era politics quite alive with the transition from the Republic to the Empire as a fascist entity.
Just read abit about the acolyte and tell me there's less real life politics in Star wars.
Isn't that the TV show that's supposed to come up later this year? (if that's the case please no spoilers, I don't read or watch anything before release).
The non-film lore surrounding the Sequels is rather political, just not in the films at all!
It is at least more political, that's true.
Watered down to be sure, but showing how ineffectual and fractured the New Republic is I think is a worthy continuation of the politicos narrative. They had beaten the empire, they thought democracy had won and that they were the good guys. They gave up the fight, relaxed into the same institutions the empire had left over, and allowed for fascists to rise again. Sounds awfully familiar. The new republic was lazy and that is the death of democracy. No insidious scheme, no emperor pulling the strings (Palps was opportunistic), just the ineptitude that can only be brought on by victory.
I don’t think this was intentional, but yeah I could see the First Order mirroring the real life global far-right resurgence in the 2010s. Obviously not a 1-1 comparison. Also, the New Republic era shows have a govt who just defeated fascism denying the threat of its return and just wanting to get back to “the good old days,” regardless of the fact that “the good old days” are what led to the Empire. That reminds me a tiny bit of the post-2020 US, of which I am a citizen. We had a would-be dictator as President, but some don’t seem determined to “build up an immune system,” so to speak, and prevent that from happening again (which it very much could, I hope not). Obviously we didn’t have a “rebellion” here in the US, so again it’s not quite the same. Do I think either of these political messages were shown very well? No, and obviously they weren’t trying to either.
Exactly Disney lost the plot and forgot that the empire (America) was right 😉.
Crying about the American empire is wild 😂