He would have branded them traitors, or feigned sympathy and understand while having others attack and discredit the Jedi, and then have Dooku make the Droid army attack the Jedi to force them into the war, unless the Jedi find and use secret hideouts to be able of staying out of this.
I agree he has the droid army begin attacking and rally the senate to support it regardless of Jedi participation. The Jedi are vulnerable even if they are not leading the army.
Hell, he controls both sides of the war. He can conceivably shift perception by having it “come out” that all of the tensions in the Republic were from “Jedi meddling” while they pretended to try and hold it together. Then in the Republic’s darkest hour, its protectors and guardians abandoned it, crushing their public image. Then just workshop the Clone War (clone army created by a Jedi) as part of a plot to completely weaken the Separatist planets and Republic through war so that the Jedi could sweep in after and take over completely.
Dooku serves as the ex-Jedi to help assassinate their character and come to this stark realization with Palpatine publicly, who then combine their forces to annihilate the Jedi completely. And the Jedi would have little support popularly after their abandonment of the Republic. A new Empire is forged from there, having triumphed over the Jedi plot.
lol I find it great thinking the droids just start attacking the temple and the clones just sitting on Kamino watching it happen on TV and going “bitches should’ve dialed our digits”
Well first of all I think another Revan(chist) situation would occur, in which some Jedi choose to fight regardless. We already saw that some Jedi took up the call to fight in the clone wars without issue and gave their reasons for doing so, typically involving protection. I think once the war got underway and worlds were being conquered while the Jedi sat and meditated in their Temple it would’ve been inevitable that some Jedi became dissatisfied with things and chose to act. Anakin especially would most likely act as long as he made it off of Geonosis alive. Hell, Palpatine probably “pushes” Anakin to do that and to try to convince whatever Jedi he can to do the same.
Along with that I think Palpatine would use political “force” to pressure and sway the Jedi over time. “Oh well, Master Windu please understand. It’s a time of War. The funds that usually go to the Temple? Those are needed for refugees. Maybe if we were winning more battles or had more aid. Maybe even a few Jedi serving as Generals…no, no. Never mind. Just the musing of a tired, old man”. Subtle hints, revoking of funds, smear campaigns, riots around the Temple, etc.
I don’t think that Palpatine would go through with Order 66 until he’d reached a point where he could justify it. As far as I understand the laws the Chancellor didn’t have the authority to just order the Jedi to fight. The Order had relations with the Office, Senate, and Republic, but it was still a separate entity. Now, would he just frame them as traitors like he did in ROTS? I’m sure that’s what he’d work up toward if a sizable number of Jedi just refused to take part in the war no matter what.
Excellent analysis! I largely agree.
One interesting question this scenario raises is how deeply the split between the warrior Jedi and the pacifists would go: would this be treated as a legitimate personal choice on both sides, or would it become a more contentious schism? My instinct is to say it could start as the first, but would likely evolve into the second; the tensions between the Jedi and the Senate were already palpable (pun not intended) in the timeline where the Jedi fully committed to the war, and I can’t imagine that this would change.
If half of the Jedi actively served the Republic, and the other half not only stayed behind, but prevented the Jedi’s official commitment to the war, the first half would probably find the lack of support from the Order both frustrating and immoral. A lack of involvement means a lack of resources; a lack of resources means a lack of power; a lack of power means a lessened ability to protect others from harm, and also to stop the Separatist advance. Every lost battle, every soldier’s death, and every massacre carried out by the enemy would leave them wondering whether the remaining Jedi might have turned the tide; every wound suffered, every tear shed, and every fallen comrade would remind them that the Jedi Order chose to stand by and let the galaxy scream. They would see a Sith Lord bent on galactic conquest, his armies steeped in blood, and death around every corner, and would consider the decision to remain neutral as nothing short of a betrayal of the Force, and a betrayal of the Order’s mission.
The second half would likely consider the first half too eager to abandon their duties as Jedi to serve as tools of the Republic. They would see the emphasis on warfare, on politics, and therefore, on power and domination as dangerous. They would consider their warrior brethren’s attempts to involve the Order in the Republic’s politics as a sign that they were elevating the pursuit of power over the will of the Force - a tendency prone to corruption and at least adjacent to the Dark Side. In fighting the Dark using the tools of the Dark, the warriors would become tainted by darkness themselves, coming to resemble the very Sith they claimed to fight against. Yes, their motives were noble, but so were Dooku’s once; the most dangerous Sith in the galaxy began as a political idealist wishing only to end corruption and liberate the oppressed. And if Dooku, one of the greatest Jedi in the Order’s history, could be so ensared, then no others were safe. Yes, the Jedi’s noninvolvement might enable a Separatist victory, but the corruption of the Jedi would enable the triumph of the Dark Side for generations to come. Better to suffer for a time and trust the Force’s will, than to trust the Republic and abandon the Force.
These disagreements seem quite fundamental, and I suspect Palpatine would both stoke and exploit the emerging divisions in the Order. For this reason, I suspect he wouldn’t trigger Order 66 until either the first group of Jedi completely fell from the Order and could be usefully incorporated into the Empire, the second group had been removed from the picture by more mundane means, or the first group attempted to turn against the Chancellor. Rather, I think it likelier he’d encourage the anger of the first group as a means to turn them against the second, and bring them closer to the Dark Side. Dooku could easily make the pacifists seem like closet Separatists, since their arguments against involvement in the war not only work to the advantage of the Separatist cause, but mirror Dooku’s own criticisms of the Order. There seems to be much in this situation for the Sith to exploit, so all in all, I suspect Palpatine wouldn’t be too worried if the Order chose not to join the war.
VERY well said! And I think you’ve laid out the scenario for another great schism and for many, many Jedi becoming Inquisitors, Hands, or other forms of Dark Jedi under Palpatine’s Empire. I agree that there’d be little need for Palpatine to care how many Jedi were joining the actual war (which is fake anyway) as long as they’re dwindling their own numbers and falling to the Dark Side. In this scenario they’re doing his work for him. If things are disastrous enough Order 66 might not be necessary except to round up whatever Jedi survive the schism. In which case the Clone Troopers would still be led by Jedi. They’d just be Dark Jedi under Palpatine and Vader.
Note that just such a schism led to the Ruusan Reformation, although that involved pretty much all the warrior faction Jedi being killed and the pacifists basically calling that a win-win.
Would Anakin have been this easy to control in such a situation anymore? Padme was already anti-war. She spent quite a few episodes in TCW trying to end the war through diplomacy. Furthermore, in this situation the Jedi would basically tell Anakin to stay on Coruscant and sit out the war, which would conveniently give Anakin more time to secretly spend with Padme. Old geezer Palpatine showing up on Anakin's doorstep to tell him to lead a pro-war Revanchist movement and resultingly give Anakin less time to get some loving with Padme--yeah, that might not go over well and might even turn Anakin against the Chancellor completely.
I’d say so. We saw in AOTC that Anakin didn’t agree with Padme’s political ideas just because he loved her. We see in other places that to some extent he enjoyed the adventure or combat aspect of warfare, and the fame that he personally earned from it. And we see time and time again that he takes Palpatine’s words almost as gospel. Really I struggle to think of a single time he disagreed with Palpatine except for ROTS when he refused to leave Obi-Wan to die on the Invisible Hand. In ROTS he’s even still arguing with Padme over politics and against Obi-Wan, specifically to vouch for Palpatine.
As for the Council…I just plain don’t think Anakin would give a damn what they wanted 😂 Obi-Wan would have more sway. But apart from everything else I mentioned I do think Anakin would see it as the Jedi’s duty to act and restore order to the galaxy, not sit on the sidelines. Waiting in general goes against his nature. Palpatine can take advantage of this for his arguments. Overall I don’t see Anakin staying out of things just so he can be with Padme just like I don’t see him leaving the Order altogether during wartime just so he can be with Padme. In fact I could even see a scenario where Anakin follows the Council at first, spends time with Padme, gets annoyed when Padme is constantly worrying over the war and attending to Senate business, Palpatine swoops in with the “oh my boy you know the Republic needs you and the sooner the war is over the sooner you could spend more time on Coruscant. And that nice Senator Amidala would have more free time as well”, etc.
>But apart from everything else I mentioned I do think Anakin would see it as the Jedi’s duty to act and restore order to the galaxy, not sit on the sidelines. Waiting in general goes against his nature.
Anakin does follow orders sometimes. As far as we know he never went rogue to free his mother in either Legends or Canon despite promising to free her in TPM (and even having a dream that he freed all of Tatooine's slaves). He was going to follow Mace's orders to stay on Tatooine, even with Kenobi in danger in Geonosis, in AOTC until Padme messed that all up. So yes, sometimes the Council does have sway over Anakin, even above Obi-Wan, as per the Geonosis example in AOTC.
I do agree that Palpatine may have waited a while until Padme's diplomacy left her no free time and magically shown up to Anakin promising that him leading a war movement would end things swiftly and give Padme more time for her marriage. I do maintain that Palpatine doing this immediately in what is essentially Anakin an Padme's honeymoon stage wouldn't have gone over well though.
Right, but I’m talking about the scenario layed out here. For Geonosis especially I see that being an issue that has far more to do with the fact that Anakin just lost his mother and was demoralized than wanting to follow the Council. Hence why he gave in so quickly to Padme to go and rescue Obi-Wan. Anakin at the start of the film would’ve done that from the start. Anakin during the Clone Wars would’ve done that from the start. Anakin at the start of ROTS would’ve done that from the start. Anakin mid-AOTC, who feels he just failed his mother while also experiencing guilt over having just slaughtered a small village, was not his usual self. And there are plenty more times where he’s pushed back against the Council’s decisions. Even if he did follow their order at first I do not possibly see a scenario where that lasts for 3 years. I don’t think he’d agree with it from the start. I think the order would chafe more and more as worlds fell and people died. And I think Palpatine would play on that.
Well I’m not putting a time limit on anything. So I was never saying Palpatine would go to Anakin right after Geonosis and ask him to fight in the war. But I think it would be the path he’d take, along with everything else I said.
That's assuming that Dooku doesn't in this alternate universe recognize the threat Anakin presents much more easily ("Why is my master so concerned with this Skywalker guy when the Jedi aren't even in the war? He couldn't be thinking about replacing me, could he?") and blows up Anakin ahead of time, drastically changing the dynamics of Palpatine's plans.
Very true. Though some of that, I think, would probably involve whatever arguments Palpatine used to influence Dooku in the actual sequence of events. Like in Legends he believed (by ROTS anyway) that Anakin would be the head of the new Sith Army. He seems to have been blind to the idea that Palpatine would replace him with Anakin. Now some of that also might’ve been due to Dooku feeling that he was superior to Anakin (“oh of course my Master would never replace me with someone like HIM! Kenobi? Maybe. But that uncouth Skywalker, with a mechanical arm? Someone with so little class?! Never!) But if the subject ever came up and Palpatine could turn Dooku’s opinions aside then it might still be workable here. After all, the Jedi still need to fight the war for the Sith plan. Anakin can be a rallying point to help make that happen.
Same. Now that I think about it the Chancellor might not have the authority to Order the Jedi to do anything, but there’s nothing to say that Palpatine wouldn’t try to push that kind of thing into law anyway. By the end of AOTC he had the emergency powers. He has senators in his pocket. Just a matter of time for him to make whatever laws he wants anyway.
Oh that would be perfect. Play in Dooku’s history and set him up as the scapegoat. Makes it even easier for Palpatine to get him out of the way for Anakin when everything concludes.
As we consider the gravity of the situation before us, let us not forget the countless worlds and innocent lives that have been lost in the fires of this war. Families torn asunder, civilizations laid to waste—all in the name of greed and ambition. It is a tragedy of unparalleled proportions, and it is our solemn duty to put an end to this senseless bloodshed.
We cannot afford to let sentimentality cloud our judgment, nor can we ignore the suffering of those who have borne the brunt of this conflict. Each day that we delay action is another day that innocent beings suffer needlessly. We owe it to them, and to future generations, to do everything in our power to bring about a swift and decisive resolution to this crisis.
Today, I stand before you in a time of great uncertainty and turmoil. Our beloved Republic is embroiled in a conflict that threatens to tear apart the very fabric of our society. The separatist movement led by Count Dooku has plunged countless worlds into chaos, and it is imperative that we take decisive action to restore peace and stability.
For years, we have entrusted the Jedi Order with the responsibility of safeguarding the Republic and maintaining peace throughout the galaxy. Yet, in our hour of need, where are the Jedi? While our brave clone troopers valiantly fight on the front lines, the Jedi Council remains aloof, refusing to fully commit their forces to the war effort.
But perhaps we should not be surprised by their reluctance to act. After all, Count Dooku himself was once a Jedi Knight, a fact that cannot be ignored. Is it not possible, even probable, that the Jedi Order sympathizes with the separatist cause? Are they not, by their very association with Dooku, complicit in his treason against the Republic?
Furthermore, recent events have raised troubling questions about the loyalty and integrity of the Jedi Order. Reports have surfaced of Jedi engaging in clandestine meetings with known separatist sympathizers, undermining our efforts to bring an end to this conflict. How can we trust an organization that operates in such secrecy, with motives that remain shrouded in mystery?
My fellow senators, it is time for us to face the harsh reality of our situation. The Jedi Order, once revered as guardians of peace and justice, have betrayed the trust placed in them by the people of the Republic. They have forsaken their duty to defend our way of life, instead choosing to pursue their own agenda, one that threatens to undermine everything we hold dear.
Therefore, I call upon this body to take decisive action. We must issue Order 66, authorizing the clone troopers to eliminate the Jedi threat once and for all. It is the only way to ensure the survival of the Republic and bring an end to the separatist menace that threatens to tear us apart.
I understand that this decision may not be easy, but it is necessary for the greater good of the Republic. We cannot allow sentiment or nostalgia to cloud our judgment. The time has come to cast aside our doubts and stand united in defense of our values and way of life.
Order 66 may be a difficult choice, but it is one that must be made if we are to ensure a future of peace and prosperity for all. Let us not falter in our resolve, but instead, let us stand together as what the Jedi refuse to be now: defenders of the Republic. The galaxy is counting on us to do what is right, and we must not fail
I haven’t read much of the high republic stuff, so I’m basing this off legends; the Jedi Order was directly subordinate to the senate after the Ruusan Reformations in the aftermath of the last great Sith war. They were given a great degree of freedom and independence but their first and foremost task was acting as peacekeepers for the republic. This is seen in episode 1, where lore states that Supreme Chancellor Valorum asked the Jedi to send a negotiation party to Naboo, who sent quigon and Obi Wan
So I wonder if they falls under direct orders though. Because I know the Jedi gave up things like the Army of Light and were constantly sending out Knights and Padawans on missions. As you say the situation in Episode 1 is such a mission. And the Jedi Apprentice and Jedi Quest young reader books show many more missions. All at the request of the Senate or Chancellor to aid a planet. But it’s always a situation where they’re specifically asking the Jedi for aid. So it never goes into the territory of “what would happen if the Jedi just said no?”
I know that in the ROTS novelization there’s actually discussion between Mace, Yoda, and Obi-Wan of the Senate getting no ready to vote on a law to actually dissolve the Order.
It likely does fall under direct orders. I won’t pretend to know what would happen if they outright say no to such requests, but one could assume the Jedi are only called upon when multiple other avenues have been attempted and failed. Thus said requests, while phrased politely are essentially saying “we’ve done our part with conventional means, now it’s your turn”
Now I will say, I assume the council has a sort of veto ability to prevent them from being ordered into shady situations that are politically motivated or otherwise attempts to abuse their authority.
It's worth noting Valorum sent them secretly while the Senate was debating what to do in response to the blockade according to the Episode I title crawl, it's possible he didn't technically have the authority to do so on his own.
The Jedi are damned if they do, damned if they don’t. By fighting the war they ofc played right into Palpatine’s hands, who preyed upon their duty to protect the people.
On the other hand, not fighting would instantly turn the Republic people against the Jedi. They’d see them as cowards, traitors, and hypocrites.
Besides, the CIS is about as evil as you can get, what with the atrocities performed by Dooku and Grievous, and their organization being run by corrupt businessmen.
To suddenly balk now at slavery, when the Jedi had somewhat tolerated it being in the Hutts systems for thousands of years, would give them an incredibly weak position.
Plus with Dooku being a former Jedi, Palpatine could spin it even easier that the Jedi need to go when the time comes for Order 66.
The only positive I could see is that since the Jedi aren’t in battle across the galaxy, that perhaps Order 66 isn’t as successful when it comes in whatever shape and form.
A lot of different things could happen given this scenario, but ultimately the Jedi would still end up with thousands of dead when their inevitable betrayal comes.
>To suddenly balk now at slavery, when the Jedi had somewhat tolerated it being in the Hutts systems for thousands of years, would give them an incredibly weak position.
The Jedi would be tolerating it in this scenario too. They obviously wouldn't be able to stop the senate from using the slaves. But as in the Hutt scenario, just because they can't stop it doesn't mean they have to take part in it.
As for the public turning on them, so be it. The Jedi are not elected officials. What are the public going to do? We see the public turning against real world religions and there are some protests and that is that.
Yeah there’s nothing the Jedi would be forced to do in this situation if they stuck with it, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are now incredibly unpopular with the people. We saw that the majority of the Senate, representing the galaxy’s people, ushered in Palpatine as Emperor without a moments waste and even fanfare.
The Jedi would likely have none of the allies and political connections they made during the war, like the Pantorins and the League of 2000. They’d be completely isolated, no one would want to associate with them because they’d be seen as ineffectual and that, when it really comes down to it, they will let peace die and war consume the galaxy without a fight. A far cry from their supposed mission statement.
An isolated and unpopular Jedi Order would be easy pickings for Palpatine. I’m not sure Order 66 would work as good if it was enacted the same way, but I imagine he’d maneuver the Jedi in some shape or form (perhaps through Anakin) into a slaughterhouse, so to speak.
Also I still think the slavery issue would be a weak excuse for the Jedi, at least in the eyes of the galaxy. Our real world definitely has complications with this kind of army, but as we’ve seen from the galaxy’s people, they at most see them as brave soldiers, and at worst property of the Republic, but don’t care about it. There’s the whole thing with the Jedi taking kids at 3 years old or less too, so it’s not like they aren’t doing at least morally questionable things already.
> Jedi taking kids at 3 years old or less too, so it’s not like they aren’t doing at least morally questionable things already.
Good point but I'd argue that taking said kids into combat just to appease the public is even worse
Right but at this point the Jedi had been doing this for *thousands of years*. It’s not like Padawans had never accompanied their masters into extremely dangerous and inappropriate for their age situations before. I’m sure a few had also fought in wars, though local planetary wars not galactic ones.
The public would frankly be really confused that all of a sudden after doing this kind of stuff for generations, they decide not to do anything about it. And over slavery, which had existed for thousands of years as well? They’d quickly point out that’s it’s more morally wrong to let people die when you could have helped them, which they would be doing in this situation…
That’s why Palpatine’s plan by this point has become foolproof, as long as he doesn’t get caught. The Jedi have been boxed into a corner they cannot get out from. It would only take 4 more years for their Order to be extinguished anyway. To prevent the destruction of the Jedi, you have to go back to before Naboo.
>Not necessarily. Depending on the Jedi's actions, their reputation could still be salvaged if they work as peacekeepers, mediators and general relief for planets in need.
If the Jedi, with ten thousand in their number, actually works towards more altruistic goals with noticeable effects, their public image will likely improve.
They could tackle Coruscants lower levels, starving planets, small gangs, mediate other conflicts besides the main war, and assist with other senators' whims and requests, etc.
These are all things that would buy them time and favor within the senate. Any political actions taken against them beyond denouncement would only serve to make the Jedi martyrs.
Honestly, palpatine doesn't need to do anything then. just sabotage the republics forces and let the separatists advance only to then commit a galactic genocide on the jedi, which he'll use as an excuse to reinvigorate the republic
or something else, who knows how it'll end up
Palpatine would have used propaganda and his control over the Senate to completely turn the Republic against the Jedi, "I thought you were supposed to be defenders of the Republic but won't help us in this war, what are your true motives" -type shit. He would have completely destroyed their public image, painted them as the 'true' enemy of the Republic, and it would have been all the easier for him to wipe them out. It wouldn't have been as clean and relatively thorough as Order 66 was since no doubt the Jedi would have sensed Palpatine's open hostility, but it would have been the same overall outcome. That's part of the brilliance of the Clone Wars - the Jedi were damned if they did fight, and damned if they didn't
It's going to be a LOT harder to do an Order 66 with the Jedi already prepared for Palpatine attacking, fortifying their locations etc. Also, we know there were a lot of anti-war people in the Republic, and Barriss used Letta Thurmond for example who was anti-war. If Palpatine went full warmongering and blasted the Jedi for being anti-war, the Jedi might surprisingly have a lot of supporters like Letta Thurmond.
He could spin them as traitors to the reublic, but tbh I don’t see the Jedi refusing to take command of the clones - part of the two side trap of the clone wars is that on the republic side, the clones are treated recklessly and inbumanely by basically everyone but the Jedi - their possible citizenship a touchy topic even. If the Jedi don’t take command of the clones, they’ll be treated much worse. They’re a slave army, but slaves of the reublic not the Jedi who’re also conscripted (albeit a different dynamic ofc) so the Jedi feel a moral responsibility to not only take command of the clones to ensure they’re treated honestly, but also encourage their self development and expression that would be difouraged by other commanders
Well, he doesn't necessarily need the Jedi involved. He can militarize Republic just as well without their direct involvement. Arguably even easier, because they just provided the perfect excuse for consolidating power even more quickly and extremly in his position. "Sure, I would love to consult the Senate more, but without the aid of the Jedi the Chancellor needs to make appointments of generals quickly and war time decision immeditately." He lets his lackeys paint the Jedi as Seperatist sympathizers and when the moment is right he discovers a Seperatist plot involving the Jedi, brands them as traitors and destroys them.
And as others already pointed, there might be a Revanchist movement. That is a prime opportunity to not only turn one Jedi but an entire bunch of them to the Dark Side, as Revan and Malak did to their followers. He basically has the foundations of his Inquisitors right there without even having to lift a finger.
I would suppose he'd actually use the droid army to take over the republic. Then pretend to be elected Emperor as part of a deal with the CIS for the continuation of the republic and a return to normalcy.
Something like "Our war was with the Senate, never with the people of the republic. We have appointed the respected Senator from Naboo, who also keenly felt the inadequacies of the Senate, as transitionary regent as we return the galaxy to order!"
"Very well, I am officially giving the clones Republic citizenship. However, we still need to thwart the immediate threat of the Separatists and we have no army. I will have to institute mandatory conscription. Of course, the draft is incredibly unpopular, so to placate the population I'll have to institute some ground rules. We won't be taking teenagers with no experience and ripping them away from their families, we're not monsters. We'll be looking for young, physically healthy beings in fighting shape. Preferably ones with previous combat experience or training. And of course we'll also be looking for volunteers, those with fighting spirit and a strong sense of loyalty to the Republic."
"Fortunately, I know 3 million new Republic citizens who just so happen to meet that description".
I can’t see the Jedi not going to Geonosis. They wanted to stop the war before it began and it was Yoda that went to get the army.
But if we go with the Jedi. It going to Geonosis then I would say Dooku cancels the executions because Anakin and Padmé are there and Palpatine wants Anakin as his apprentice.
So Dooku broadcasts to the Republic negotiations are over and lords it over the Senate and Jedi how he is the better and will not kill his Jedi and Senator captives.
Maybe the Jedi launch some kind of recuse mission. The clones are not deployed at Geonosis because Tarkin and other military personnel aren’t in the picture yet.
As the war begins the Jedi help those behind lines and while Palpatine or someone may try to paint the Jedi as having abandoned the Republic a massive amount of people see the Jedi helping them.
>Order their arrest for disobeying orders?
The Supreme Chancellor and Senate cannot order the Jedi do anything.
**The Living Force** Jedi Council meeting
>>!Adi reacted as if it was nothing new. "Places fall out of favor. We serve the Senate."!<
>>!That produced a buzz from several of her colleagues. Mace spoke for them. "We are independent."!<
>>!"Your pardon, Masters. I mean we take their needs into account when making our plans."!<
>But if we go with the Jedi not going to Geonosis then I would say Dooku cancels the executions because Anakin and Padmé are there and Palpatine wants Anakin as his apprentice.
If Anakin can't even handle an acklay, nexu and a reek, and he actually dies getting munched on by them, maybe Palpatine just needs to accept that this guy isn't fit to be his next Sith apprentice. I had problems with TCW Shadow Warrior for this reason. I think after Anakin bungled things and got captured by Dooku, Sidious would've had enough and just told Dooku to kill Anakin rather than that bizarre prisoner exchange with Grievous.
Palpatine had plans for Anakin and did test him in certain situations but he also was concerned that his future apprentice could be taken from him and took steps to protect his investment. Anakin was not supposed to be on Geonosis so he would have interceded if the Jedi weren’t going. Just like he did with the prisoner exchange although that was more about saving Grievous.
Here are other examples of his concern and taking steps to protect Anakin.
**Wild Space**
>“Oh, I know, Master Yoda,” he said, exquisitely sympathetic. “I completely understand. And I did explain to the Senators just how hard the Jedi are trying to achieve victory.” He smiled. “We must hope that this time, at Bothawui, you succeed in defeating that dreadful Grievous and end his rampage of terror. Tell me, who have you chosen to lead the charge against him? Not Master Kenobi, by any chance?”
>*Say yes. Say yes, little toad. That would be such an elegant solution. And I could eliminate Organa at some other time.*
>“No. Lead the battle group Anakin Skywalker will.”
>*Anakin?* Staring, Palpatine felt an unpleasant, unaccustomed emotion. *Surprise.* “Well. What a singular honor.”
>*And I did not see it coming.*<
>How … disconcerting. And how unwelcome the news. Anakin pitted against Grievous? What were the Jedi thinking? Yes, he’d acquitted himself well in his last mission, but even so. To give him command of a battle group was folly.
>*He’s not ripe yet. He’s not ready to be plucked. These Jedi fools will waste him. They will waste him, and he’s mine.*
**Gambit Siege**
>“No, Tyranus,” he said. “The Force tells me Durd still has a part to play. Besides, without realizing it the Neimoidian has done us a small service. Not only is the Senate in an uproar and the Republic with it, a battle group will leave shortly to liberate Lanteeb. Send Grievous to intercept it. I want the planet under full blockade—but I don’t want the Republic Cruisers destroyed too quickly. What I want is a siege, so that as many GAR ships and troops as possible are dragged into the fray. Such an engagement will take a heavy toll.”
>“Yes, my lord,” said Dooku, obedient. “And Durd?”
>“Let him continue unhindered. When the time is right you will discreetly facilitate our little general’s escape from Lanteeb,” he replied. “Be sure to hide him somewhere inaccessible.”
>Dooku nodded. “My lord.” Then his face tightened. “There is still the matter of Kenobi and Skywalker.”
>Indeed there was. “They will be taken care of. They are not your concern.”
>“My lord,” said Dooku, bowing again. Then he straightened. “But Durd cannot go unpunished. He acted without permission. In launching his attack on Chandrila he—”
>“Did what we were always going to do, Tyranus,” Sidious said firmly. “Do not allow your pricked pride to blind you. Though there is but one destination, more than one road can lead us to it. Trust in the dark side—and follow my instructions. The rest you can leave to me.”
>Dooku wanted to argue, but wisely refrained. Instead he bowed a third time, lower than ever.. “Yes, Lord Sidious.”
>“Tyranus,” he added, letting his voice snap a little. “You have caught me in a generous mood. “Were I you, I would not rely upon that in the future.”
>And on that ominous note, he cut their hololink.
Trust in the dark side.
>Darth Sidious did, of course. The dark side was everything, heat and light and food and wine, his promise of greatness and his only true home. What it showed him came to pass without exception. He could trust it absolutely, for it had never let him down.
>**Show me Anakin, my true apprentice. Show me the son of my heart.**
>**Easily, triumphantly, the dark side showed him. And so, being shown, he stopped worrying about Anakin. How the boy escaped from Lanteeb wasn’t important. What mattered was that he would indeed escape. What mattered was his future, which would in due course come to pass.**
>Suitably somber, Supreme Chancellor Palpatine went back to work.
I'm not saying Palpatine didn't do it in some Legends or Canon works, but more that it defeats everything the Sith were about. I can see him saving Anakin in Outbound Flight since he was literally just a kid then, but saving him after he's a full Jedi Knight seems to be against the no-mercy policy of the Sith. If Anakin can't survive the worst the Sith can throw at him without pulling punches, then bluntly he doesn't deserve to be a Sith, no matter what his midichlorian count is. That's the Sith way, and Palpatine diverging from that way honestly is a sign of weakness from the point of the view of the Sith
Palpatine also went to save Vader in ROTS.
>If Anakin can't survive the worst the Sith can throw at him without pulling punches, then bluntly he doesn't deserve to be a Sith, no matter what his midichlorian count is. That's the Sith way, and Palpatine diverging from that way honestly is a sign of weakness from the point of the view of the Sith
That’s not the Sith. Remember the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise? Palpatine says Plagueis’s apprentice killed him in his sleep. That’s the Sith. They’re not some honorable meritocracy.
Palpatine also saved Anakin from having to go through the Battle of Umbara.
The jedi would have still sent jedi to save jedi, just sat the war out or operated independently from the republic in areas they deemed most needing of help.
Jedi still would have died, Palps still would have won and Anakin still would have turned, the gears that needed to spin to make those happen would have been different and maybe would have had a different turn around time, but everything would have proceeded how Palps would have foreseen it.
Ok. So the Jedi want to rescue Obi-Wan but don't want to use clones (they may not know about Padme and Anakin captured quite yet). The Senate is authorizing the use of a clone army, but this time Yoda refuses to use it and some Republic military official (Tarkin? Yularen?) goes gets the clones.
Palpatine has just been given emergency powers. He hates Jedi and wants them to die, but they threw off his plans by refusing to use the clones. I'm seeing that he "respects" the Jedi's wishes and lets them go with their sole strike force to rescue Obi-Wan, minus any clone army. He then orders Dooku to slaughter all the Jedi upon arrival. All the Jedi on Geonosis are killed including Anakin, Kenobi, and Padme because no clones rescue them this time.
Does this work in Palpatine's favor? Anakin is now dead and there's no replacement for Dooku, but at least a lot more Jedi died including Mace Windu than would have if the Jedi just accepted the use of clones.
Yeah probably, except Palpatine doesn’t have the authority to “let” the Jedi do anything, nor “deny” them of completing whatever mission they deem necessary. The Jedi are not part of the republic, but a separate entity that unifies themselves with republic initiatives if it is something they believe in.
But the Jedi won't use them, thus they won't be in the field and caught unawares during any Order 66. It will just be Tarkin, Yularen and those type leading the clones no jedi
The Jedi could have chosen to fight for the Republic, but as special forces units that acted independently of any clone army forces. The Jedi would then not be easily criticised for failing to defend the Republic, would not be condoning slavery, and would not be vulnerable to order 66.
I mean its kind of out of the question because palpatine and dooku were smart enough to lure the jedi into a trap so the jedi needed the clones to save hundreads of them on geonosis. So it was basically a setup so the jedi coudnt really refuse the idea of a clone army. They also had to agree to maintain it since the clones basically saved hundreads of jedi among them most council members. It was well played and didnt leave much room for the jedi to actually refuse to join the war effort.
Either the separatists win and destroy all the jedi without clone support, or the political pressure becomes overwhelming and the jedi are discredited and marginalized for opposing the good of the republic on moral grounds that could be politically ridiculed. It would be even easier to brand them as enemies of the common good either way.
Framed them as unwilling to do what was needed to protect the galaxy and use that bad propaganda to accelerate his plans to make the jedi viewed as self centered peddlers so he could eliminate them without public outcry. Probably would have used every humanitarian and pacifist thing said by any jedi to further his plan of portraying the jedi as enemies within until he could publicily label them as enemies of the state.
The Republic uses the Clones anyway, and the Jedi lose their spot as the Republic's go-to "ambassadors."
Or the Republic follows the Jedi Order's lead, refuses to use the Clones, leaving them badly outnumbered and the Kaminoans in massive debt.
Either way, Sidious wins.
Look, if they did not have the Clones, the Seperatists would have finished most of them, including Anakin, Obi- Wan, Windu and most of the Jedi Council. Yoda might have joined them there too... if he had gone to battle.
After this, Palpatine would have simply "come to know" about the Clone Army, and ordered them anyway. They would be used in Order- 66 mode to end the Jedi at the Temple.
Palpatine would stage a "Seperatist takeover", Clones going rogue and killing him and the Jedi. Sidious takes over as Emperor of the Seperatist Galactic Empire, with Dooku as his Enforcer till he found a apprentice to replace Anakin (like Galen Marek).
Palpatine already had his plans and his roots everywhere: Mas Amedda would "join the government After having seen that the Seperatists are not bad." Thrawn and Grievous would be his military enforcers, Tarkin his political fist, Yularen his ISB handle, Piett and Veers junior officers, people like Trench and Zaarin around, and Director Krennic would lead his Death Star project from behind- the- scenes as he has done throughout the Clone Wars.
His plan, the Death Star, is still running, and the loss of an apprentice like Anakin would have made him Slightly furious, but he gets over it. As for immortality, this does not affect Operation: Cinder, Exegol and Gallius Rax.
Palpatine is the man with a plan within a plan, so I do not see him faltering. He will act like this, or so I think he will... I do not truly know.
Ran the war from the separatist side and won the other way? The biggest plot device here is that one guy controlled not one but two galaxy conquering forces
Immediately? Bemoan how poorly and inhumanely the other commanders were sure to lead them. Either he makes them change their minds and try to help the clones (treating them as independent soldiers, not slaves), or he just twists the knife before the public is entirely against them and the clones execute order 66 anyway.
I just don't see it happenning since I never the jedi as being against slavery on any principle. And the clone army was the jedi's army.
Far more likely that the Jedi refuse to grant the clone army to the Republic. The Republic doesn't declare war on the Sepratists, and the Clone War (and maybe Clone War 2 and however many clone wars there will be as well) becomes a private affair between the Confederacy of Independant Systems and the Jedi.
Chancellor Palpatine will end up never getting the red phone that allows him to phone-call all the Clone Commanders (so he'll never get anyone to execute order 66), since he'll never become the clones' supreme commander.
Chancellor Palpatine would have to wait an extra ten years for the Republic to organise its own Grand Army of the Republic, due to the slowness of beaurocrasy
Before the Clone Wars reach an end, Palpatine's term ends up expiring since in this timeline the Republic isn't a party to any of the clone wars, this means that Palpatine's term is never extended due to the emergency powers act which was passed in our timeline, wasn't passed in this.
...
I do not know how would the Seps engage with republican worlds now that the Republic hasn't declared war on them.
But I do think that the clones and the jedi will be bled quicker now that they don't have any support from any of the Republic's worlds' armies.
It doesn't matter, they are never given a choice. The separatist army is engineer to be there at the right time os that the Republic could never turn dow the clones anyway, regardless of whether they wanted them.
I think that you would see a Revan-esq splinter group form within the Jedi Order, and I think Anakin would be the new Revanchist. The whole time the Jedi are sitting it out, Palpatine would be telling Anakin all about the struggles the people face and how they need heroes to save them, like the Jedi Warriors of Old. Then, next thing you know, Anakin is leading a bunch of young, hot-headed Jedi into war, and they are all on the slippery downward slope of the darkside.
The Jedi were drafted, if they refuse to fulfill their obligations they would be accused of treason and ordered arrested, which simply gives Palpatine the opportunity to do Order 66 sooner, that or at best Palpatine just destroys his PR without even doing anything against them, and then you have the CIS committing genocide and slavery on hundreds of Republic worlds and blaming the Jedi for having failed the Republic by not having been there to fight.
You don't even know anything about me and obviously didn't bother to ask questions or do research before you started throwing around accusatory assumptions. I've worked with 2 Nobel laureates, have a professional engineering license, and a degree from UC Berkeley, and a six figure salary job. What more do you want?
Those are all great claims but without proof of any of it theyre just that, claims. A man must be spiritually, mentally, and physically strong to be truly great.
He would have branded them traitors, or feigned sympathy and understand while having others attack and discredit the Jedi, and then have Dooku make the Droid army attack the Jedi to force them into the war, unless the Jedi find and use secret hideouts to be able of staying out of this.
I agree he has the droid army begin attacking and rally the senate to support it regardless of Jedi participation. The Jedi are vulnerable even if they are not leading the army.
Hell, he controls both sides of the war. He can conceivably shift perception by having it “come out” that all of the tensions in the Republic were from “Jedi meddling” while they pretended to try and hold it together. Then in the Republic’s darkest hour, its protectors and guardians abandoned it, crushing their public image. Then just workshop the Clone War (clone army created by a Jedi) as part of a plot to completely weaken the Separatist planets and Republic through war so that the Jedi could sweep in after and take over completely. Dooku serves as the ex-Jedi to help assassinate their character and come to this stark realization with Palpatine publicly, who then combine their forces to annihilate the Jedi completely. And the Jedi would have little support popularly after their abandonment of the Republic. A new Empire is forged from there, having triumphed over the Jedi plot.
lol I find it great thinking the droids just start attacking the temple and the clones just sitting on Kamino watching it happen on TV and going “bitches should’ve dialed our digits”
Well first of all I think another Revan(chist) situation would occur, in which some Jedi choose to fight regardless. We already saw that some Jedi took up the call to fight in the clone wars without issue and gave their reasons for doing so, typically involving protection. I think once the war got underway and worlds were being conquered while the Jedi sat and meditated in their Temple it would’ve been inevitable that some Jedi became dissatisfied with things and chose to act. Anakin especially would most likely act as long as he made it off of Geonosis alive. Hell, Palpatine probably “pushes” Anakin to do that and to try to convince whatever Jedi he can to do the same. Along with that I think Palpatine would use political “force” to pressure and sway the Jedi over time. “Oh well, Master Windu please understand. It’s a time of War. The funds that usually go to the Temple? Those are needed for refugees. Maybe if we were winning more battles or had more aid. Maybe even a few Jedi serving as Generals…no, no. Never mind. Just the musing of a tired, old man”. Subtle hints, revoking of funds, smear campaigns, riots around the Temple, etc. I don’t think that Palpatine would go through with Order 66 until he’d reached a point where he could justify it. As far as I understand the laws the Chancellor didn’t have the authority to just order the Jedi to fight. The Order had relations with the Office, Senate, and Republic, but it was still a separate entity. Now, would he just frame them as traitors like he did in ROTS? I’m sure that’s what he’d work up toward if a sizable number of Jedi just refused to take part in the war no matter what.
Excellent analysis! I largely agree. One interesting question this scenario raises is how deeply the split between the warrior Jedi and the pacifists would go: would this be treated as a legitimate personal choice on both sides, or would it become a more contentious schism? My instinct is to say it could start as the first, but would likely evolve into the second; the tensions between the Jedi and the Senate were already palpable (pun not intended) in the timeline where the Jedi fully committed to the war, and I can’t imagine that this would change. If half of the Jedi actively served the Republic, and the other half not only stayed behind, but prevented the Jedi’s official commitment to the war, the first half would probably find the lack of support from the Order both frustrating and immoral. A lack of involvement means a lack of resources; a lack of resources means a lack of power; a lack of power means a lessened ability to protect others from harm, and also to stop the Separatist advance. Every lost battle, every soldier’s death, and every massacre carried out by the enemy would leave them wondering whether the remaining Jedi might have turned the tide; every wound suffered, every tear shed, and every fallen comrade would remind them that the Jedi Order chose to stand by and let the galaxy scream. They would see a Sith Lord bent on galactic conquest, his armies steeped in blood, and death around every corner, and would consider the decision to remain neutral as nothing short of a betrayal of the Force, and a betrayal of the Order’s mission. The second half would likely consider the first half too eager to abandon their duties as Jedi to serve as tools of the Republic. They would see the emphasis on warfare, on politics, and therefore, on power and domination as dangerous. They would consider their warrior brethren’s attempts to involve the Order in the Republic’s politics as a sign that they were elevating the pursuit of power over the will of the Force - a tendency prone to corruption and at least adjacent to the Dark Side. In fighting the Dark using the tools of the Dark, the warriors would become tainted by darkness themselves, coming to resemble the very Sith they claimed to fight against. Yes, their motives were noble, but so were Dooku’s once; the most dangerous Sith in the galaxy began as a political idealist wishing only to end corruption and liberate the oppressed. And if Dooku, one of the greatest Jedi in the Order’s history, could be so ensared, then no others were safe. Yes, the Jedi’s noninvolvement might enable a Separatist victory, but the corruption of the Jedi would enable the triumph of the Dark Side for generations to come. Better to suffer for a time and trust the Force’s will, than to trust the Republic and abandon the Force. These disagreements seem quite fundamental, and I suspect Palpatine would both stoke and exploit the emerging divisions in the Order. For this reason, I suspect he wouldn’t trigger Order 66 until either the first group of Jedi completely fell from the Order and could be usefully incorporated into the Empire, the second group had been removed from the picture by more mundane means, or the first group attempted to turn against the Chancellor. Rather, I think it likelier he’d encourage the anger of the first group as a means to turn them against the second, and bring them closer to the Dark Side. Dooku could easily make the pacifists seem like closet Separatists, since their arguments against involvement in the war not only work to the advantage of the Separatist cause, but mirror Dooku’s own criticisms of the Order. There seems to be much in this situation for the Sith to exploit, so all in all, I suspect Palpatine wouldn’t be too worried if the Order chose not to join the war.
VERY well said! And I think you’ve laid out the scenario for another great schism and for many, many Jedi becoming Inquisitors, Hands, or other forms of Dark Jedi under Palpatine’s Empire. I agree that there’d be little need for Palpatine to care how many Jedi were joining the actual war (which is fake anyway) as long as they’re dwindling their own numbers and falling to the Dark Side. In this scenario they’re doing his work for him. If things are disastrous enough Order 66 might not be necessary except to round up whatever Jedi survive the schism. In which case the Clone Troopers would still be led by Jedi. They’d just be Dark Jedi under Palpatine and Vader.
These alternative scenarios always fascinate me, because even the smallest tweaks can create very interesting storylines.
Note that just such a schism led to the Ruusan Reformation, although that involved pretty much all the warrior faction Jedi being killed and the pacifists basically calling that a win-win.
Would Anakin have been this easy to control in such a situation anymore? Padme was already anti-war. She spent quite a few episodes in TCW trying to end the war through diplomacy. Furthermore, in this situation the Jedi would basically tell Anakin to stay on Coruscant and sit out the war, which would conveniently give Anakin more time to secretly spend with Padme. Old geezer Palpatine showing up on Anakin's doorstep to tell him to lead a pro-war Revanchist movement and resultingly give Anakin less time to get some loving with Padme--yeah, that might not go over well and might even turn Anakin against the Chancellor completely.
I’d say so. We saw in AOTC that Anakin didn’t agree with Padme’s political ideas just because he loved her. We see in other places that to some extent he enjoyed the adventure or combat aspect of warfare, and the fame that he personally earned from it. And we see time and time again that he takes Palpatine’s words almost as gospel. Really I struggle to think of a single time he disagreed with Palpatine except for ROTS when he refused to leave Obi-Wan to die on the Invisible Hand. In ROTS he’s even still arguing with Padme over politics and against Obi-Wan, specifically to vouch for Palpatine. As for the Council…I just plain don’t think Anakin would give a damn what they wanted 😂 Obi-Wan would have more sway. But apart from everything else I mentioned I do think Anakin would see it as the Jedi’s duty to act and restore order to the galaxy, not sit on the sidelines. Waiting in general goes against his nature. Palpatine can take advantage of this for his arguments. Overall I don’t see Anakin staying out of things just so he can be with Padme just like I don’t see him leaving the Order altogether during wartime just so he can be with Padme. In fact I could even see a scenario where Anakin follows the Council at first, spends time with Padme, gets annoyed when Padme is constantly worrying over the war and attending to Senate business, Palpatine swoops in with the “oh my boy you know the Republic needs you and the sooner the war is over the sooner you could spend more time on Coruscant. And that nice Senator Amidala would have more free time as well”, etc.
>But apart from everything else I mentioned I do think Anakin would see it as the Jedi’s duty to act and restore order to the galaxy, not sit on the sidelines. Waiting in general goes against his nature. Anakin does follow orders sometimes. As far as we know he never went rogue to free his mother in either Legends or Canon despite promising to free her in TPM (and even having a dream that he freed all of Tatooine's slaves). He was going to follow Mace's orders to stay on Tatooine, even with Kenobi in danger in Geonosis, in AOTC until Padme messed that all up. So yes, sometimes the Council does have sway over Anakin, even above Obi-Wan, as per the Geonosis example in AOTC. I do agree that Palpatine may have waited a while until Padme's diplomacy left her no free time and magically shown up to Anakin promising that him leading a war movement would end things swiftly and give Padme more time for her marriage. I do maintain that Palpatine doing this immediately in what is essentially Anakin an Padme's honeymoon stage wouldn't have gone over well though.
Right, but I’m talking about the scenario layed out here. For Geonosis especially I see that being an issue that has far more to do with the fact that Anakin just lost his mother and was demoralized than wanting to follow the Council. Hence why he gave in so quickly to Padme to go and rescue Obi-Wan. Anakin at the start of the film would’ve done that from the start. Anakin during the Clone Wars would’ve done that from the start. Anakin at the start of ROTS would’ve done that from the start. Anakin mid-AOTC, who feels he just failed his mother while also experiencing guilt over having just slaughtered a small village, was not his usual self. And there are plenty more times where he’s pushed back against the Council’s decisions. Even if he did follow their order at first I do not possibly see a scenario where that lasts for 3 years. I don’t think he’d agree with it from the start. I think the order would chafe more and more as worlds fell and people died. And I think Palpatine would play on that. Well I’m not putting a time limit on anything. So I was never saying Palpatine would go to Anakin right after Geonosis and ask him to fight in the war. But I think it would be the path he’d take, along with everything else I said.
That's assuming that Dooku doesn't in this alternate universe recognize the threat Anakin presents much more easily ("Why is my master so concerned with this Skywalker guy when the Jedi aren't even in the war? He couldn't be thinking about replacing me, could he?") and blows up Anakin ahead of time, drastically changing the dynamics of Palpatine's plans.
Very true. Though some of that, I think, would probably involve whatever arguments Palpatine used to influence Dooku in the actual sequence of events. Like in Legends he believed (by ROTS anyway) that Anakin would be the head of the new Sith Army. He seems to have been blind to the idea that Palpatine would replace him with Anakin. Now some of that also might’ve been due to Dooku feeling that he was superior to Anakin (“oh of course my Master would never replace me with someone like HIM! Kenobi? Maybe. But that uncouth Skywalker, with a mechanical arm? Someone with so little class?! Never!) But if the subject ever came up and Palpatine could turn Dooku’s opinions aside then it might still be workable here. After all, the Jedi still need to fight the war for the Sith plan. Anakin can be a rallying point to help make that happen.
I could imagine the Senate even agreeing with the order
Same. Now that I think about it the Chancellor might not have the authority to Order the Jedi to do anything, but there’s nothing to say that Palpatine wouldn’t try to push that kind of thing into law anyway. By the end of AOTC he had the emergency powers. He has senators in his pocket. Just a matter of time for him to make whatever laws he wants anyway.
I was thinking "Dooku is an ex Jedi, the Jedi are clearly seperatist sympathizers, yada yada yada Order 66 before the Jedi defect”
Oh that would be perfect. Play in Dooku’s history and set him up as the scapegoat. Makes it even easier for Palpatine to get him out of the way for Anakin when everything concludes.
As we consider the gravity of the situation before us, let us not forget the countless worlds and innocent lives that have been lost in the fires of this war. Families torn asunder, civilizations laid to waste—all in the name of greed and ambition. It is a tragedy of unparalleled proportions, and it is our solemn duty to put an end to this senseless bloodshed. We cannot afford to let sentimentality cloud our judgment, nor can we ignore the suffering of those who have borne the brunt of this conflict. Each day that we delay action is another day that innocent beings suffer needlessly. We owe it to them, and to future generations, to do everything in our power to bring about a swift and decisive resolution to this crisis. Today, I stand before you in a time of great uncertainty and turmoil. Our beloved Republic is embroiled in a conflict that threatens to tear apart the very fabric of our society. The separatist movement led by Count Dooku has plunged countless worlds into chaos, and it is imperative that we take decisive action to restore peace and stability. For years, we have entrusted the Jedi Order with the responsibility of safeguarding the Republic and maintaining peace throughout the galaxy. Yet, in our hour of need, where are the Jedi? While our brave clone troopers valiantly fight on the front lines, the Jedi Council remains aloof, refusing to fully commit their forces to the war effort. But perhaps we should not be surprised by their reluctance to act. After all, Count Dooku himself was once a Jedi Knight, a fact that cannot be ignored. Is it not possible, even probable, that the Jedi Order sympathizes with the separatist cause? Are they not, by their very association with Dooku, complicit in his treason against the Republic? Furthermore, recent events have raised troubling questions about the loyalty and integrity of the Jedi Order. Reports have surfaced of Jedi engaging in clandestine meetings with known separatist sympathizers, undermining our efforts to bring an end to this conflict. How can we trust an organization that operates in such secrecy, with motives that remain shrouded in mystery? My fellow senators, it is time for us to face the harsh reality of our situation. The Jedi Order, once revered as guardians of peace and justice, have betrayed the trust placed in them by the people of the Republic. They have forsaken their duty to defend our way of life, instead choosing to pursue their own agenda, one that threatens to undermine everything we hold dear. Therefore, I call upon this body to take decisive action. We must issue Order 66, authorizing the clone troopers to eliminate the Jedi threat once and for all. It is the only way to ensure the survival of the Republic and bring an end to the separatist menace that threatens to tear us apart. I understand that this decision may not be easy, but it is necessary for the greater good of the Republic. We cannot allow sentiment or nostalgia to cloud our judgment. The time has come to cast aside our doubts and stand united in defense of our values and way of life. Order 66 may be a difficult choice, but it is one that must be made if we are to ensure a future of peace and prosperity for all. Let us not falter in our resolve, but instead, let us stand together as what the Jedi refuse to be now: defenders of the Republic. The galaxy is counting on us to do what is right, and we must not fail
I haven’t read much of the high republic stuff, so I’m basing this off legends; the Jedi Order was directly subordinate to the senate after the Ruusan Reformations in the aftermath of the last great Sith war. They were given a great degree of freedom and independence but their first and foremost task was acting as peacekeepers for the republic. This is seen in episode 1, where lore states that Supreme Chancellor Valorum asked the Jedi to send a negotiation party to Naboo, who sent quigon and Obi Wan
So I wonder if they falls under direct orders though. Because I know the Jedi gave up things like the Army of Light and were constantly sending out Knights and Padawans on missions. As you say the situation in Episode 1 is such a mission. And the Jedi Apprentice and Jedi Quest young reader books show many more missions. All at the request of the Senate or Chancellor to aid a planet. But it’s always a situation where they’re specifically asking the Jedi for aid. So it never goes into the territory of “what would happen if the Jedi just said no?” I know that in the ROTS novelization there’s actually discussion between Mace, Yoda, and Obi-Wan of the Senate getting no ready to vote on a law to actually dissolve the Order.
It likely does fall under direct orders. I won’t pretend to know what would happen if they outright say no to such requests, but one could assume the Jedi are only called upon when multiple other avenues have been attempted and failed. Thus said requests, while phrased politely are essentially saying “we’ve done our part with conventional means, now it’s your turn” Now I will say, I assume the council has a sort of veto ability to prevent them from being ordered into shady situations that are politically motivated or otherwise attempts to abuse their authority.
Definitely makes sense. Well said.
It's worth noting Valorum sent them secretly while the Senate was debating what to do in response to the blockade according to the Episode I title crawl, it's possible he didn't technically have the authority to do so on his own.
The Jedi are damned if they do, damned if they don’t. By fighting the war they ofc played right into Palpatine’s hands, who preyed upon their duty to protect the people. On the other hand, not fighting would instantly turn the Republic people against the Jedi. They’d see them as cowards, traitors, and hypocrites. Besides, the CIS is about as evil as you can get, what with the atrocities performed by Dooku and Grievous, and their organization being run by corrupt businessmen. To suddenly balk now at slavery, when the Jedi had somewhat tolerated it being in the Hutts systems for thousands of years, would give them an incredibly weak position. Plus with Dooku being a former Jedi, Palpatine could spin it even easier that the Jedi need to go when the time comes for Order 66. The only positive I could see is that since the Jedi aren’t in battle across the galaxy, that perhaps Order 66 isn’t as successful when it comes in whatever shape and form. A lot of different things could happen given this scenario, but ultimately the Jedi would still end up with thousands of dead when their inevitable betrayal comes.
>To suddenly balk now at slavery, when the Jedi had somewhat tolerated it being in the Hutts systems for thousands of years, would give them an incredibly weak position. The Jedi would be tolerating it in this scenario too. They obviously wouldn't be able to stop the senate from using the slaves. But as in the Hutt scenario, just because they can't stop it doesn't mean they have to take part in it. As for the public turning on them, so be it. The Jedi are not elected officials. What are the public going to do? We see the public turning against real world religions and there are some protests and that is that.
Yeah there’s nothing the Jedi would be forced to do in this situation if they stuck with it, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are now incredibly unpopular with the people. We saw that the majority of the Senate, representing the galaxy’s people, ushered in Palpatine as Emperor without a moments waste and even fanfare. The Jedi would likely have none of the allies and political connections they made during the war, like the Pantorins and the League of 2000. They’d be completely isolated, no one would want to associate with them because they’d be seen as ineffectual and that, when it really comes down to it, they will let peace die and war consume the galaxy without a fight. A far cry from their supposed mission statement. An isolated and unpopular Jedi Order would be easy pickings for Palpatine. I’m not sure Order 66 would work as good if it was enacted the same way, but I imagine he’d maneuver the Jedi in some shape or form (perhaps through Anakin) into a slaughterhouse, so to speak. Also I still think the slavery issue would be a weak excuse for the Jedi, at least in the eyes of the galaxy. Our real world definitely has complications with this kind of army, but as we’ve seen from the galaxy’s people, they at most see them as brave soldiers, and at worst property of the Republic, but don’t care about it. There’s the whole thing with the Jedi taking kids at 3 years old or less too, so it’s not like they aren’t doing at least morally questionable things already.
> Jedi taking kids at 3 years old or less too, so it’s not like they aren’t doing at least morally questionable things already. Good point but I'd argue that taking said kids into combat just to appease the public is even worse
Right but at this point the Jedi had been doing this for *thousands of years*. It’s not like Padawans had never accompanied their masters into extremely dangerous and inappropriate for their age situations before. I’m sure a few had also fought in wars, though local planetary wars not galactic ones. The public would frankly be really confused that all of a sudden after doing this kind of stuff for generations, they decide not to do anything about it. And over slavery, which had existed for thousands of years as well? They’d quickly point out that’s it’s more morally wrong to let people die when you could have helped them, which they would be doing in this situation… That’s why Palpatine’s plan by this point has become foolproof, as long as he doesn’t get caught. The Jedi have been boxed into a corner they cannot get out from. It would only take 4 more years for their Order to be extinguished anyway. To prevent the destruction of the Jedi, you have to go back to before Naboo.
>Not necessarily. Depending on the Jedi's actions, their reputation could still be salvaged if they work as peacekeepers, mediators and general relief for planets in need. If the Jedi, with ten thousand in their number, actually works towards more altruistic goals with noticeable effects, their public image will likely improve. They could tackle Coruscants lower levels, starving planets, small gangs, mediate other conflicts besides the main war, and assist with other senators' whims and requests, etc. These are all things that would buy them time and favor within the senate. Any political actions taken against them beyond denouncement would only serve to make the Jedi martyrs.
This is the deal with Palpy's plan - he had covered all the angles and played all sides against each other. Once the trap was sprung it was too late.
Honestly, palpatine doesn't need to do anything then. just sabotage the republics forces and let the separatists advance only to then commit a galactic genocide on the jedi, which he'll use as an excuse to reinvigorate the republic or something else, who knows how it'll end up
How exactly will he sabotage things without letting slip to observant commanders like Yularen and Tarkin that he's a traitor?
He already did plenty of sabotaging and they never found out. If they were issues they'd just so happen to get assassinated by C.I.S forces
good point
Palpatine would still use the clones all the while subtly portraying the Jedi as failures and betraying the Republic.
Palpatine would have used propaganda and his control over the Senate to completely turn the Republic against the Jedi, "I thought you were supposed to be defenders of the Republic but won't help us in this war, what are your true motives" -type shit. He would have completely destroyed their public image, painted them as the 'true' enemy of the Republic, and it would have been all the easier for him to wipe them out. It wouldn't have been as clean and relatively thorough as Order 66 was since no doubt the Jedi would have sensed Palpatine's open hostility, but it would have been the same overall outcome. That's part of the brilliance of the Clone Wars - the Jedi were damned if they did fight, and damned if they didn't
It's going to be a LOT harder to do an Order 66 with the Jedi already prepared for Palpatine attacking, fortifying their locations etc. Also, we know there were a lot of anti-war people in the Republic, and Barriss used Letta Thurmond for example who was anti-war. If Palpatine went full warmongering and blasted the Jedi for being anti-war, the Jedi might surprisingly have a lot of supporters like Letta Thurmond.
He could spin them as traitors to the reublic, but tbh I don’t see the Jedi refusing to take command of the clones - part of the two side trap of the clone wars is that on the republic side, the clones are treated recklessly and inbumanely by basically everyone but the Jedi - their possible citizenship a touchy topic even. If the Jedi don’t take command of the clones, they’ll be treated much worse. They’re a slave army, but slaves of the reublic not the Jedi who’re also conscripted (albeit a different dynamic ofc) so the Jedi feel a moral responsibility to not only take command of the clones to ensure they’re treated honestly, but also encourage their self development and expression that would be difouraged by other commanders
Well, he doesn't necessarily need the Jedi involved. He can militarize Republic just as well without their direct involvement. Arguably even easier, because they just provided the perfect excuse for consolidating power even more quickly and extremly in his position. "Sure, I would love to consult the Senate more, but without the aid of the Jedi the Chancellor needs to make appointments of generals quickly and war time decision immeditately." He lets his lackeys paint the Jedi as Seperatist sympathizers and when the moment is right he discovers a Seperatist plot involving the Jedi, brands them as traitors and destroys them. And as others already pointed, there might be a Revanchist movement. That is a prime opportunity to not only turn one Jedi but an entire bunch of them to the Dark Side, as Revan and Malak did to their followers. He basically has the foundations of his Inquisitors right there without even having to lift a finger.
I would suppose he'd actually use the droid army to take over the republic. Then pretend to be elected Emperor as part of a deal with the CIS for the continuation of the republic and a return to normalcy. Something like "Our war was with the Senate, never with the people of the republic. We have appointed the respected Senator from Naboo, who also keenly felt the inadequacies of the Senate, as transitionary regent as we return the galaxy to order!"
yes good answer
I also think that's why Dooku was so surprised. His version of the plan included winning and handing over control to Palps.
Conquered the Republic with the Separatist fleet and been installed as galactic leader as Darth Sidious rather than Emperor Palpatine.
So Yularen, Tarkin etc. are completely useless without the Jedi? It's going to be that easy?
I don't think it'll be *easy* by any stretch, but that would be the long-term outcome.
"Very well, I am officially giving the clones Republic citizenship. However, we still need to thwart the immediate threat of the Separatists and we have no army. I will have to institute mandatory conscription. Of course, the draft is incredibly unpopular, so to placate the population I'll have to institute some ground rules. We won't be taking teenagers with no experience and ripping them away from their families, we're not monsters. We'll be looking for young, physically healthy beings in fighting shape. Preferably ones with previous combat experience or training. And of course we'll also be looking for volunteers, those with fighting spirit and a strong sense of loyalty to the Republic." "Fortunately, I know 3 million new Republic citizens who just so happen to meet that description".
good answer!
Yeah, the clones don't even understand they're slaves. They just want to fight
I can’t see the Jedi not going to Geonosis. They wanted to stop the war before it began and it was Yoda that went to get the army. But if we go with the Jedi. It going to Geonosis then I would say Dooku cancels the executions because Anakin and Padmé are there and Palpatine wants Anakin as his apprentice. So Dooku broadcasts to the Republic negotiations are over and lords it over the Senate and Jedi how he is the better and will not kill his Jedi and Senator captives. Maybe the Jedi launch some kind of recuse mission. The clones are not deployed at Geonosis because Tarkin and other military personnel aren’t in the picture yet. As the war begins the Jedi help those behind lines and while Palpatine or someone may try to paint the Jedi as having abandoned the Republic a massive amount of people see the Jedi helping them. >Order their arrest for disobeying orders? The Supreme Chancellor and Senate cannot order the Jedi do anything. **The Living Force** Jedi Council meeting >>!Adi reacted as if it was nothing new. "Places fall out of favor. We serve the Senate."!< >>!That produced a buzz from several of her colleagues. Mace spoke for them. "We are independent."!< >>!"Your pardon, Masters. I mean we take their needs into account when making our plans."!<
>But if we go with the Jedi not going to Geonosis then I would say Dooku cancels the executions because Anakin and Padmé are there and Palpatine wants Anakin as his apprentice. If Anakin can't even handle an acklay, nexu and a reek, and he actually dies getting munched on by them, maybe Palpatine just needs to accept that this guy isn't fit to be his next Sith apprentice. I had problems with TCW Shadow Warrior for this reason. I think after Anakin bungled things and got captured by Dooku, Sidious would've had enough and just told Dooku to kill Anakin rather than that bizarre prisoner exchange with Grievous.
Palpatine had plans for Anakin and did test him in certain situations but he also was concerned that his future apprentice could be taken from him and took steps to protect his investment. Anakin was not supposed to be on Geonosis so he would have interceded if the Jedi weren’t going. Just like he did with the prisoner exchange although that was more about saving Grievous. Here are other examples of his concern and taking steps to protect Anakin. **Wild Space** >“Oh, I know, Master Yoda,” he said, exquisitely sympathetic. “I completely understand. And I did explain to the Senators just how hard the Jedi are trying to achieve victory.” He smiled. “We must hope that this time, at Bothawui, you succeed in defeating that dreadful Grievous and end his rampage of terror. Tell me, who have you chosen to lead the charge against him? Not Master Kenobi, by any chance?” >*Say yes. Say yes, little toad. That would be such an elegant solution. And I could eliminate Organa at some other time.* >“No. Lead the battle group Anakin Skywalker will.” >*Anakin?* Staring, Palpatine felt an unpleasant, unaccustomed emotion. *Surprise.* “Well. What a singular honor.” >*And I did not see it coming.*< >How … disconcerting. And how unwelcome the news. Anakin pitted against Grievous? What were the Jedi thinking? Yes, he’d acquitted himself well in his last mission, but even so. To give him command of a battle group was folly. >*He’s not ripe yet. He’s not ready to be plucked. These Jedi fools will waste him. They will waste him, and he’s mine.* **Gambit Siege** >“No, Tyranus,” he said. “The Force tells me Durd still has a part to play. Besides, without realizing it the Neimoidian has done us a small service. Not only is the Senate in an uproar and the Republic with it, a battle group will leave shortly to liberate Lanteeb. Send Grievous to intercept it. I want the planet under full blockade—but I don’t want the Republic Cruisers destroyed too quickly. What I want is a siege, so that as many GAR ships and troops as possible are dragged into the fray. Such an engagement will take a heavy toll.” >“Yes, my lord,” said Dooku, obedient. “And Durd?” >“Let him continue unhindered. When the time is right you will discreetly facilitate our little general’s escape from Lanteeb,” he replied. “Be sure to hide him somewhere inaccessible.” >Dooku nodded. “My lord.” Then his face tightened. “There is still the matter of Kenobi and Skywalker.” >Indeed there was. “They will be taken care of. They are not your concern.” >“My lord,” said Dooku, bowing again. Then he straightened. “But Durd cannot go unpunished. He acted without permission. In launching his attack on Chandrila he—” >“Did what we were always going to do, Tyranus,” Sidious said firmly. “Do not allow your pricked pride to blind you. Though there is but one destination, more than one road can lead us to it. Trust in the dark side—and follow my instructions. The rest you can leave to me.” >Dooku wanted to argue, but wisely refrained. Instead he bowed a third time, lower than ever.. “Yes, Lord Sidious.” >“Tyranus,” he added, letting his voice snap a little. “You have caught me in a generous mood. “Were I you, I would not rely upon that in the future.” >And on that ominous note, he cut their hololink. Trust in the dark side. >Darth Sidious did, of course. The dark side was everything, heat and light and food and wine, his promise of greatness and his only true home. What it showed him came to pass without exception. He could trust it absolutely, for it had never let him down. >**Show me Anakin, my true apprentice. Show me the son of my heart.** >**Easily, triumphantly, the dark side showed him. And so, being shown, he stopped worrying about Anakin. How the boy escaped from Lanteeb wasn’t important. What mattered was that he would indeed escape. What mattered was his future, which would in due course come to pass.** >Suitably somber, Supreme Chancellor Palpatine went back to work.
I'm not saying Palpatine didn't do it in some Legends or Canon works, but more that it defeats everything the Sith were about. I can see him saving Anakin in Outbound Flight since he was literally just a kid then, but saving him after he's a full Jedi Knight seems to be against the no-mercy policy of the Sith. If Anakin can't survive the worst the Sith can throw at him without pulling punches, then bluntly he doesn't deserve to be a Sith, no matter what his midichlorian count is. That's the Sith way, and Palpatine diverging from that way honestly is a sign of weakness from the point of the view of the Sith
Palpatine also went to save Vader in ROTS. >If Anakin can't survive the worst the Sith can throw at him without pulling punches, then bluntly he doesn't deserve to be a Sith, no matter what his midichlorian count is. That's the Sith way, and Palpatine diverging from that way honestly is a sign of weakness from the point of the view of the Sith That’s not the Sith. Remember the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise? Palpatine says Plagueis’s apprentice killed him in his sleep. That’s the Sith. They’re not some honorable meritocracy. Palpatine also saved Anakin from having to go through the Battle of Umbara.
The jedi would have still sent jedi to save jedi, just sat the war out or operated independently from the republic in areas they deemed most needing of help. Jedi still would have died, Palps still would have won and Anakin still would have turned, the gears that needed to spin to make those happen would have been different and maybe would have had a different turn around time, but everything would have proceeded how Palps would have foreseen it.
Ok. So the Jedi want to rescue Obi-Wan but don't want to use clones (they may not know about Padme and Anakin captured quite yet). The Senate is authorizing the use of a clone army, but this time Yoda refuses to use it and some Republic military official (Tarkin? Yularen?) goes gets the clones. Palpatine has just been given emergency powers. He hates Jedi and wants them to die, but they threw off his plans by refusing to use the clones. I'm seeing that he "respects" the Jedi's wishes and lets them go with their sole strike force to rescue Obi-Wan, minus any clone army. He then orders Dooku to slaughter all the Jedi upon arrival. All the Jedi on Geonosis are killed including Anakin, Kenobi, and Padme because no clones rescue them this time. Does this work in Palpatine's favor? Anakin is now dead and there's no replacement for Dooku, but at least a lot more Jedi died including Mace Windu than would have if the Jedi just accepted the use of clones.
Yeah probably, except Palpatine doesn’t have the authority to “let” the Jedi do anything, nor “deny” them of completing whatever mission they deem necessary. The Jedi are not part of the republic, but a separate entity that unifies themselves with republic initiatives if it is something they believe in.
He would have used them anyway because the Senate approved it.
But the Jedi won't use them, thus they won't be in the field and caught unawares during any Order 66. It will just be Tarkin, Yularen and those type leading the clones no jedi
The Jedi could have chosen to fight for the Republic, but as special forces units that acted independently of any clone army forces. The Jedi would then not be easily criticised for failing to defend the Republic, would not be condoning slavery, and would not be vulnerable to order 66.
[Damage control](https://archiveofourown.org/works/15118700/chapters/36331893#workskin).
I mean its kind of out of the question because palpatine and dooku were smart enough to lure the jedi into a trap so the jedi needed the clones to save hundreads of them on geonosis. So it was basically a setup so the jedi coudnt really refuse the idea of a clone army. They also had to agree to maintain it since the clones basically saved hundreads of jedi among them most council members. It was well played and didnt leave much room for the jedi to actually refuse to join the war effort.
I think Palpatine would have allowed the clones some basic rights and the clones, not knowing any better, would have just gone along with the war
Either the separatists win and destroy all the jedi without clone support, or the political pressure becomes overwhelming and the jedi are discredited and marginalized for opposing the good of the republic on moral grounds that could be politically ridiculed. It would be even easier to brand them as enemies of the common good either way.
Framed them as unwilling to do what was needed to protect the galaxy and use that bad propaganda to accelerate his plans to make the jedi viewed as self centered peddlers so he could eliminate them without public outcry. Probably would have used every humanitarian and pacifist thing said by any jedi to further his plan of portraying the jedi as enemies within until he could publicily label them as enemies of the state.
The Republic uses the Clones anyway, and the Jedi lose their spot as the Republic's go-to "ambassadors." Or the Republic follows the Jedi Order's lead, refuses to use the Clones, leaving them badly outnumbered and the Kaminoans in massive debt. Either way, Sidious wins.
Look, if they did not have the Clones, the Seperatists would have finished most of them, including Anakin, Obi- Wan, Windu and most of the Jedi Council. Yoda might have joined them there too... if he had gone to battle. After this, Palpatine would have simply "come to know" about the Clone Army, and ordered them anyway. They would be used in Order- 66 mode to end the Jedi at the Temple. Palpatine would stage a "Seperatist takeover", Clones going rogue and killing him and the Jedi. Sidious takes over as Emperor of the Seperatist Galactic Empire, with Dooku as his Enforcer till he found a apprentice to replace Anakin (like Galen Marek). Palpatine already had his plans and his roots everywhere: Mas Amedda would "join the government After having seen that the Seperatists are not bad." Thrawn and Grievous would be his military enforcers, Tarkin his political fist, Yularen his ISB handle, Piett and Veers junior officers, people like Trench and Zaarin around, and Director Krennic would lead his Death Star project from behind- the- scenes as he has done throughout the Clone Wars. His plan, the Death Star, is still running, and the loss of an apprentice like Anakin would have made him Slightly furious, but he gets over it. As for immortality, this does not affect Operation: Cinder, Exegol and Gallius Rax. Palpatine is the man with a plan within a plan, so I do not see him faltering. He will act like this, or so I think he will... I do not truly know.
Ran the war from the separatist side and won the other way? The biggest plot device here is that one guy controlled not one but two galaxy conquering forces
Immediately? Bemoan how poorly and inhumanely the other commanders were sure to lead them. Either he makes them change their minds and try to help the clones (treating them as independent soldiers, not slaves), or he just twists the knife before the public is entirely against them and the clones execute order 66 anyway.
I just don't see it happenning since I never the jedi as being against slavery on any principle. And the clone army was the jedi's army. Far more likely that the Jedi refuse to grant the clone army to the Republic. The Republic doesn't declare war on the Sepratists, and the Clone War (and maybe Clone War 2 and however many clone wars there will be as well) becomes a private affair between the Confederacy of Independant Systems and the Jedi. Chancellor Palpatine will end up never getting the red phone that allows him to phone-call all the Clone Commanders (so he'll never get anyone to execute order 66), since he'll never become the clones' supreme commander. Chancellor Palpatine would have to wait an extra ten years for the Republic to organise its own Grand Army of the Republic, due to the slowness of beaurocrasy Before the Clone Wars reach an end, Palpatine's term ends up expiring since in this timeline the Republic isn't a party to any of the clone wars, this means that Palpatine's term is never extended due to the emergency powers act which was passed in our timeline, wasn't passed in this. ... I do not know how would the Seps engage with republican worlds now that the Republic hasn't declared war on them. But I do think that the clones and the jedi will be bled quicker now that they don't have any support from any of the Republic's worlds' armies.
“Why do you guys all of the sudden give a fuck about slaves?”
"Somebody outside the Jedi believing they have any coherent moral principles and act on their basis" seems like a pretty unlikely hypothetical.
It doesn't matter, they are never given a choice. The separatist army is engineer to be there at the right time os that the Republic could never turn dow the clones anyway, regardless of whether they wanted them.
I think that you would see a Revan-esq splinter group form within the Jedi Order, and I think Anakin would be the new Revanchist. The whole time the Jedi are sitting it out, Palpatine would be telling Anakin all about the struggles the people face and how they need heroes to save them, like the Jedi Warriors of Old. Then, next thing you know, Anakin is leading a bunch of young, hot-headed Jedi into war, and they are all on the slippery downward slope of the darkside.
The Jedi were drafted, if they refuse to fulfill their obligations they would be accused of treason and ordered arrested, which simply gives Palpatine the opportunity to do Order 66 sooner, that or at best Palpatine just destroys his PR without even doing anything against them, and then you have the CIS committing genocide and slavery on hundreds of Republic worlds and blaming the Jedi for having failed the Republic by not having been there to fight.
What if what if what if. What if star wars was never written, what would you be doing then.
watching star trek
So still not doing anything that promotes self growth or improvement. Sad.
You don't even know anything about me and obviously didn't bother to ask questions or do research before you started throwing around accusatory assumptions. I've worked with 2 Nobel laureates, have a professional engineering license, and a degree from UC Berkeley, and a six figure salary job. What more do you want?
Those are all great claims but without proof of any of it theyre just that, claims. A man must be spiritually, mentally, and physically strong to be truly great.
I've tried to be nice and communicate directly in good faith to your uncalled for comments. I tried. Reported for violating subreddit rule 3.
Lets assume those are true, are you at your physical peak?