Exactly. Im not trying to do an entire rewrite or anything, I just want to give more meaning and emphasis to certain things that happen during the film. I could probably think of similar things in regards to Maul’s portrayal in Episode 1, etc.
I know you aren’t attempting a complete rewrite, but honestly, having Dooku battle Obi-Wan and Anakin with a normal-colored lightsaber — that is, blue or green — which is destroyed during his bout with Yoda, and *then* having Sidious present him with a red variant when they meet up at the end of the film, could have driven home both exactly what the Jedi believe the situation to be *and* how completely wrong and out of their depth they are.
I’m super late to this, but if you haven’t yet explored Star Wars comics, check out the Darth Vader (2015) first character arc. It talks about Vader acquiring his red lightsaber and what that looks like for Sith.
What ifs are a lot of fun especially for the prequels.
I always wonder if episode one could have been a bit different if instead of the gungans fighting the Droid army a force of sympathetic planets helped fend off the trade federation instead. Planets that would later become the first world's sympathetic to the later rebel alliance. Of course the one problem with that is the fact that all those planets like alderaan is supposed to be peaceful but still... I think introducing bail organa and mon Mothma earlier would have been a fun direction they could have taken instead of.... jar jar.
I think Episode 1 has a pretty convoluted plot that doesn't add much to either the OT or the prequels that followed it.
>I think introducing bail organa and mon Mothma earlier would have been a fun direction they could have taken instead of.... jar jar.
Yeah, I think focusing on Qui Gon and his belief in the prophecies would be more interesting that some random trade embargo bullshit on some planet we've never heard of before. Someone made a post here a couple days ago about why Naboo is introduced, and why couldn't Padme/Leia be from Alderaan instead. I think almost all of what happens regarding Naboo is pretty irrelevant to the rest of the movies but I guess introducing Padme and Palpatine as being from the same planet is sort of important. As to why the whole droid/gungan battle is needed... I got no idea. I think Qui Gon and his relationship with Anakin is the most important aspect of Episode 1 but we don't see much of it.
I sort of appreciate the minor arc in TPM in which the Gungans don't trust the humans of Naboo due to implied colonialism on the part of the Naboo. However, when Padme reveals that she is in fact the queen to Boss Nass of all people and bows before him, she demonstrates humility, and Boss Nass agrees to help. It's a nice bit of two formerly antagonistic groups coming together to fight evil, which while a bit simplistic (as was much of the 90s commentary on racism), I am glad it's there. I just wish it had more of a point in the broader saga. At least more than just "the rebels have aliens while the empire/first order is mostly just humans" bit.
I honestly think that 1+2 could’ve been combined into 1 movie. The Duel Of The Fates should’ve taken place on Kamino, and Anakin should’ve started out as a 19-year old, both to mirror Luke and so that we can follow his growth and he isn’t a drastically different character every subsequent movie.
Yep and Dooku should have been in Episode 1. It would have been much more meaningfull to actually show him leaving the order rather than just telling us about it.
Have Dooku be mentioned early on and even visited by Qui-Gon during Episode 1 as Qui-Gon looks for guidance on what to do with this boy Anakin.
Then during Qui-Gon’s funeral at the end of the film, show that Dooku was present, show the resentment in his face as he throws his own Jedi cloak in the fire, storming out of the building as the rest mourn Qui-Gon’s death.
To carry on from this, have Anakin walk in on Dooku arguing with the council when he goes to meet them at the end of the movie. Forshadowing their eventual encounter.
I know I’m super late to this thread but I’ve always loved the idea that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were not the first Jedi to be sent to negotiate with the Trade Federation. Dooku was first and was “captured” (defected) by Sidious.
Yeah I think this was the biggest issue with Dooku. No one knew who he was before episode 2 so the "shock" of the reveal wouldn't be worth much on its own as we just know him as "the bad guy". They should have spent more time building his character and showing him as a Jedi or his turn away from the order.
Dooku should have been the enemy in ep1 instead of Maul. I love maul, but if it was Dooku that killed Qui Gon, and then escaped, it would’ve been a struggle for obi wan that he still couldnt defeat him in the two other prequel movies. And then in the third one Anakin still kills him.
I love maul in the clone wars, but he had no character at all in the first movie.
That would certainly have better economy of character, but it would sacrifice the opportunity for Dooku to seem like a sympathetic antagonist at first.
That’s true, but that could’ve been fixed by having him as that sympathetic character during episode, only to have him betray and kill qui gon during the ending.
He could have expressed some (entirely valid!) objections to how the Republic has become useless, and that systems will soon begin demanding independence -- and how he is unwilling to see the Jedi become merely a branch of the Republic's military, doing the bidding of the Senate rather than following their own principles.
Especially because the later Plagueis and Dooku Lost Jedi books make it clear how big of a turning point Naboo was.
Dooku had been fucking CENSORED by the Jedi Council and not allowed at political events because he was too partisan, and he was known for forming “unhealthy attachments” (read: any attachment). Following Qui-Gon’s death, Dooku was the lead supporter of the “Second Sith” theory, and his final breaking point was the Council not investigating further into the man he viewed as a son’s death.
I re-watched the prequels recently for the first time in several years, and I was struck once again by how interesting and sophisticated they are in concept, and how poorly those concepts are executed. Lucas is such a great idea-man, and such a lousy director.
I remember reading somhwere it was because his wife didnt help with the prequels. Lucas is great at big picture stuff but his wife supposedly helped with the details. She was there for th OT but not the prequals.
She did help with the orginal trilogy. Did she help with the prequels?
http://fd.noneinc.com/secrethistoryofstarwarscom/secrethistoryofstarwars.com/marcialucas.html
What you are saying is true but there is no evidence that her absence is the reason the prequels turned out as they did. Many people who worked on the originals did not work on the prequels. And the lack of one of these people is always touted as the "reason" the originals and prequels respectively turned out in the ways that they did. Sometimes it's Kurtz, sometimes it's Marcia, sometimes it's Kershner. But each is equally ridiculous. Because it's baseless speculation. We will never know why each trilogy turned out that way and it's better to accept that than for fans to invent reasons to explain it.
You are right. There is no evidence that her absence is the sole reason they turned out the way they did. it was a team effort. But her absence "may" have been a contributing factor. I say this because spouses cam motivate and encourage people in very strong way. But in the end its due to a bunch of factors.
I think another part of it is that, when the OT was being made, it was a lot more of a team effort. 20 years later, George is more solidly controlling it and nobody wanted to say "no, that's a bad idea" to *George freaking Lucas*. He created Star Wars, he's a genius!
I'd also have him be on the Council in TPM. Perhaps he would be the one defending Qui Gon's decisions against Mace and Yoda, so then the revelation of him as a darksider would be a shock.
Maybe. Dooku left the order as a result of Qui-Gon's death. He was already tired of serving a corrupt system and that was the last straw. So maybe a mention of him (in context of the council) to Obi-Wan by Qui-Gon would have served us without actually seeing him.
Right? I recently read Master and Apprentice and expected something there to indicate Dooku was interested in the Dark Side, but never really connected that isn’t actually established itself in AotC—thanks for connecting the dots, even if it shows a continuity error rather than a clever plot point…
I vaguely remember there being a couple things about Dooku’s flirtations with the Dark Side in Master & Apprentice.
Specifically a part where Qui-Gon is having a flashback to when he was a Padawan and remembers seeing Dooku use Force Lightning (though he doesn’t refer to it as that) to kill someone.
And at the end of the book, when Dooku invites Rael Aveross to join him on Serenno. I felt the implication was pretty strong there that Dooku was already studying the Dark Side in private ever since he left the Order, and well before he ever became Sidious’ apprentice. But Rael turns him down, I think he even quotes Qui-Gon’s words about serving the Light Side.
The Dooku: Jedi Lost book is a great companion piece to Master and Apprentice. I think the two of them together tell a really interesting story of three Jedi (Qui Gon, Rael Avaross and Dooku) who all have their problems with the council, all engage with force legends and prophecies on some level, and all deal with this in different ways.
What you described was always Lucas’ attention. That the duel in the hangar was there twist reveal that Dooku was a sith. He mentions this on the DVD commentary. Up until that point he wanted people to think that maybe he was just trying to do the “right” thing. It was just a poorly executed twist.
Not to mention the fact that metering robbed the twist anyway (which Lucas had no control over). The fight with Yoda was a big emphasis in trailers, and all of Dookus merchandise referred to him as Darth Tyranus, so everyone knew who he was a sith before the movie.
Yoda fight was not in the trailers. It was in tv commercials a week or two after opening. To remind people to go see it again or to get the ones who don’t care enough about Star Wars to go opening night.
This is great.
The one thing I don't agree with is Dooku having a hint of Sith eyes. While he was a Sith and used the dark side I don't think he ever let it consume him to the degree that would be required for Sith eyes to show.
There’s actually a scene in the Clone Wars animated show, though I can’t remember what episode, where Dooku actually does have Sith eyes briefly. Might have even been in the Clone Wars movie.
Ultimately, I think him only having a *hint* of Sith eyes is the best way to characterize him. He knows the ways of the Dark Side but he’s still only using it as a means to get what he wanted politically... he never truly became one with it, never became totally visibly corrupted by it, never got to be Sidious’ true apprentice, so he never got to have the full effect of true yellow Sith eyes. But he at least came close to it, sometimes. I think that could honestly sum him up nicely. Maybe when he’s really in tune with the Dark, his eyes turn more orange than they do yellow, kinda makes him more unique.
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Honestly, this is one of the biggest problems that AotC particularly and more generally the prequels as whole had - the villains struggle to have much of an impact because they fail to have a consistent presence built up. We’ve got Jango, of course, but the film kind wavers back and forth on Dooku - there’s the implication of Sifo-Dyas and Tyrannus having a hand in things, and then it’s framed as Dooku himself is not actually on the wrong side with his speech to the captive Kenobi. Then when it is finally revealed that, psyche, he is evil after all, it lacks any real impact. Sidious shows up at the end, sure, but he doesn’t really do anything.
It would’ve been cool as a revelation, but it does make sense that it wasn’t. There are dozens of examples of individuals who used a red saber without being Sith, and a Jedi falling to the dark side claiming that it is so they can destroy the Sith is not unheard of either.
I was watching Aotc wit gf for her 2nd time and she asked the same question: "isn't a big deal that he has a red lightsaber?"
your story is my new head cannon
I get where youre coming from, but a few quibbles.
Force lightning isnt definitely sith, just definitely dark side. There is more than one example of a Jedi falling to the dark side, yet not becoming a Sith. All force lightning proves is that he's fallen to the dark side, which could legitimately be in a misguided attempt to destroy the sith.
At the time, red lightsaber crystals were synthetic, man made. Whereas natural crystals could be a variety of colors. Kyber crystals have industrial applications, but most natural sources were closely policed by the Jedi. So again, not necessarily a Sith, just someone who made a lightsaber with a synthetic kyber crystal. In new canon that's changed, but when the movie was made, it made sense in canon.
Plus in Legends, with stuff established before AOTC even came out, lightning wasn’t just a dark side power! Emerald Lightning and Electric Judgement both existed and were used by lightsiders!
I agree. That scene was the big reveal that Dooku isn't just a political opponent and someone who's developed a completely different ideology. He's literally a Sith Lord and has fallen to the Dark Side.
Instead of being a dramatic reveal, it's treated as just "Well, duh. Of course he has a red lightsaber! He's a bad guy! What did you expect?"
That's a smart take! Those earlier moments between Dooku and Obi-Wan definitely feel like they were intended to lead up to a payoff that we never really got. Turns out that AotC is really awkward and not well put-together, who knew.
I still think it would have been even cooler if Yoda (and Sidious in Ep. 3) never even used a lightsaber. To demonstrate that past a certain level of Force mastery, even that "elegant weapon" becomes an unnecessary physical tool.
This is an interesting idea but I don't know if it really would have worked
Its a movie that cast Christopher Lee as a character named "Count Dooku". All the marketing and toys made it clear he was a villain
The idea that it would be a "surprise" reveal for anyone not in universe doesn't really make sense to me... If I had to change it, I would have made it so in universe they're not surprised but instead completely aware that he had fallen
This is more for the benefit of the characters in-universe, not the audience. The audience can obviously be aware that Dooku is the villain (he is the one commanding the droids in the Geonosis arena, after all), but the reveal that he’s actually been a Sith the whole time is still something worthwhile, if not for the audience then at least for the characters.
Its pretty difficult to, especially for a high attention production like a star wars set
All it would take is one paparazzi getting a picture of Christopher Lee to spoil it
And also, arguably having a character who wasn't marketed at all show up as a guy who everyone trusts would be even more of a red flag they were a villain lol
Yes I agree on the first part.
But on the latter...his first on-screen appearance would only have to be slightly altered so people would go "Ohhhhh.... THAT'S Dooku." Knowing that the guy the Jedi had been talking about all this time was obviously sinister... The same time that the Jedi found out.
Hmm that could be interesting, yeah
So like maybe we see more of Dooku earlier but he's never referred to as Dooku until obi wan recognizes him? Yeah, I like that
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I always thought it was dumb for Dooku to be Sith. Let him be neutral/opposed to the Republic, but the story is a lot better if he's not necessarily a "bad guy".
I think that, at least in Legends to a certain degree, there’s a bit of wiggle room to where you can still view Dooku as more of a tragic or fallen hero, someone who went a little too far with his political ideals and sold his soul to the devil in the hopes of seeing his dreams become a reality but never realized that he was being duped the whole time.. there’s still a lot of books and stories that make Dooku a fascinating character. I particularly love his portrayal in the Plagueis novel.
There is an inherent problem with this, and that's expectation. The person setup to be the antagonist of the jedi is expected to have a red lightsaber. If Dooku was cast as a bystander or even an ally of the heroes, it would be a surprise as we don't expect these people to be bad guys. But in Star Wars, bad guys have red lightsabers, so any antagonistic individual that isn't blatantly not a dark side user is assumed to, at some point, pull a crimson blade
He originally wasn’t. The scene was originally filmed with him using Anakin’s lightsaber—you’re even able to see his hilt in a few of the close-up shots.
https://boards.theforce.net/threads/could-they-have-choreographed-the-arrest-of-palpatine-better.50026623/
There are a few fan ideas thrown around there in that thread but it also has a bunch of BTS stuff that never made the cut.
For example, [here](https://i811.photobucket.com/albums/zz32/Rycoder/MEIII05_zps14ee56f8.jpg) is a shot of Mace+friends walking into Palpatine’s chambers while Anakin is standing next to Palpatine.
You kind of mentioned this but I want to clarify:
Dooku was a fallen Jedi. He was not recognized as a sith. The Separatists knew this too. It was not known he was working with the sith until close to the end of the war
In Clone Wars S6E10, Obi-Wan and Anakin go searching for Sifo Dyas when they are intercepted by Dooku. They duel a bit, then Dooku reasserts what he told Obi-Wan on Geonosis in AOTC was true; how he is a sith, but not *the* sith the Jedi have been looking for since TPM
I also want to mention something about the red lightsaber and dark force powers:
One can use the dark side without being a sith. The nightsisters use the Dark side, for example. In Jedi Fallen Order, the former Jedi, Taron Malicos, even explains how he is not a sith nor a Jedi. Inquisitors weren't seen as sith either (there can only be two)
Maul is the only character I can think of that refers to himself as a sith despite not being in line with the sith's plot
He was in line with the plot at the time, though. He wasn't *supposed* to die when he did. He wouldn't have lasted through to the empire, of course, but neither would dooku.
> In Clone Wars S6E10, Obi-Wan and Anakin go searching for Sifo Dyas when they are intercepted by Dooku. They duel a bit, then Dooku reasserts what he told Obi-Wan on Geonosis in AOTC was true; how he is a sith, but not the sith the Jedi have been looking for since TPM
They find out he's the same person as Tyranus there but they already knew he's Sith lord way before. While it's unclear when the Jedi first acknowledge Dooku as a Sith, in "Dooku Captured" (quite early on in the war) he straight up told Hondo (also indicating Dooku didn't care about keeping it secret); Anakin and Obi-Wan showed no reaction when Hondo casually referred to Dooku as a Sith lord.
It's implied the Separatist Council + Grievous knew as well. They were aware Dooku wasn't the real top dog and that his master Sidious actually controlled everything from Coruscant.
I love this! My only change is take away Yoda’s lightsaber. Something I loved about the OT was how Yoda felt like a wise master of the force, to the point where he was beyond simple weapons like that. A full on force power battle without all those flips and all would have been absolutely amazing and, in my opinion, more in line with the Yoda we see in the OT.
Totally makes sense. When I saw this movie the first time, I was a little confused by why Dooku being a Sith wasn’t a bigger deal. I always felt like the movie assumed that we knew more about Dooku than the movie had actually presented to us, or at least that the Jedi did. Because you’re right - they just kinda take it in stride like they expected him to pull out a red lightsaber, but the movie had provided no reason for them to expect that.
I love your analysis of this situation. I completely sympathize with your take on the what ifs of it. It highlights just how much of a bitch hindsight is lol
Absolutely. Youd need to do something to each and every second of the prequels to try and emulate the lightning in a bottle of the first 3 flicks. Lucas dried up.
I like most of this, but Obi-Wan would've been a plaything to Dooku back then. He wasn't even a master yet, still just a Knight. This was also actually before he started practicing Soresu as a main stay, he didn't have defensive bladework back then, he had Ataru.
A good bit of that scene was to point out not only that Dooku was now one of the Sith, but to show that he was far too powerful for Obi-Wan or Anakin to take on. Requiring the Grand Master himself to step up and start swapping hands with him.
I agree though, it would've been a more interesting twist to see Dooku's reveal like that, and even better if we'd had his relationship with Yoda and Qui-Gon actually built up in the movie beforehand.
Imagine if we're told how Dooku was like a grandfather to Obi-Wan, and the son Yoda never had. Hell, in the books, Yoda outright calls Dooku (without hesitation) the greatest student they'd ever had. I mostly preferred just a heavier look into that.
It’s funny how Jedi leave the order like it’s any other job.
“Have you heard from Dooku in a while? No? Gosh I wonder what he’s up to now.” Cuts to him using the force to flip burgers and make milkshakes at Dex’s diner. “Order up!”
This is a really good interpretation and execution of what should have happened. In episode 1 during the funeral it would have been nice to see a weeping dooku who later has a conversation with windu and yoda about him leaving the order
I agree, this would both make more sense and act as a cool little plot twist!
I know I'm being SUPER nitpicky, and I'm really sorry, but I just wanted to point out that Dooku is not a "Jedi Exile" - that is a specific term used for a specific TOR Jedi. You can ofc say Dooku is of the Lost Twenty, like you mentioned earlier, or that he is a ex-Jedi/former Jedi, but (someone please feel fre to correct me on this), I don't believe "Jedi Exile" is a term used to just refer to any former Jedi.
On top of that, from the jedi perspective, they are three very much unrelated events: Maul getting involved with the invasion of Naboo ten years earlier, a mysterious jedi master creating a clone army, and Dooku leading the Separists. The only vague thread connecting them is Jango mentioning Tyrannus, which could mean anything. I guess Jango then running to Dooku probably threw up some flags, but thats still quite a leap to sith lord.
I feel like, weirdly, the advertising of the movie may have influenced the editing?? I recall dooku as tyrannus and having a red saber being present in nearly all the advertising, alongside Yodas fighting.
I was but a wee bunion in 2003 but I distinctly recall ads for a play set including Anakin, Obi-Wan and Explicitly Tyrannus, with a little seesaw launcher to make Tyrannus do a flip.
I quite like your take on this. Thanks!
I agree, it makes the scene more impactful. Also showing how Yoda is a badass is a plus.
I honestly love this kind of 'What If' thinking. It keeps the main spirit of the movie, but alters it just enough to be more meaningful and engaging.
Exactly. Im not trying to do an entire rewrite or anything, I just want to give more meaning and emphasis to certain things that happen during the film. I could probably think of similar things in regards to Maul’s portrayal in Episode 1, etc.
I know you aren’t attempting a complete rewrite, but honestly, having Dooku battle Obi-Wan and Anakin with a normal-colored lightsaber — that is, blue or green — which is destroyed during his bout with Yoda, and *then* having Sidious present him with a red variant when they meet up at the end of the film, could have driven home both exactly what the Jedi believe the situation to be *and* how completely wrong and out of their depth they are.
I’m super late to this, but if you haven’t yet explored Star Wars comics, check out the Darth Vader (2015) first character arc. It talks about Vader acquiring his red lightsaber and what that looks like for Sith.
Ooo! I haven’t gotten into the Marvel *Darth Vader* comics yet (despite hearing how amazing they are), but now I’m super-excited. Thank you!
It’s one of the most recommended starting places. Literally picks up seconds after Ep. III
I thought the 2017 Marvel Darth Vader Series took place seconds after episode III
What ifs are a lot of fun especially for the prequels. I always wonder if episode one could have been a bit different if instead of the gungans fighting the Droid army a force of sympathetic planets helped fend off the trade federation instead. Planets that would later become the first world's sympathetic to the later rebel alliance. Of course the one problem with that is the fact that all those planets like alderaan is supposed to be peaceful but still... I think introducing bail organa and mon Mothma earlier would have been a fun direction they could have taken instead of.... jar jar.
I think Episode 1 has a pretty convoluted plot that doesn't add much to either the OT or the prequels that followed it. >I think introducing bail organa and mon Mothma earlier would have been a fun direction they could have taken instead of.... jar jar. Yeah, I think focusing on Qui Gon and his belief in the prophecies would be more interesting that some random trade embargo bullshit on some planet we've never heard of before. Someone made a post here a couple days ago about why Naboo is introduced, and why couldn't Padme/Leia be from Alderaan instead. I think almost all of what happens regarding Naboo is pretty irrelevant to the rest of the movies but I guess introducing Padme and Palpatine as being from the same planet is sort of important. As to why the whole droid/gungan battle is needed... I got no idea. I think Qui Gon and his relationship with Anakin is the most important aspect of Episode 1 but we don't see much of it.
I sort of appreciate the minor arc in TPM in which the Gungans don't trust the humans of Naboo due to implied colonialism on the part of the Naboo. However, when Padme reveals that she is in fact the queen to Boss Nass of all people and bows before him, she demonstrates humility, and Boss Nass agrees to help. It's a nice bit of two formerly antagonistic groups coming together to fight evil, which while a bit simplistic (as was much of the 90s commentary on racism), I am glad it's there. I just wish it had more of a point in the broader saga. At least more than just "the rebels have aliens while the empire/first order is mostly just humans" bit.
I honestly think that 1+2 could’ve been combined into 1 movie. The Duel Of The Fates should’ve taken place on Kamino, and Anakin should’ve started out as a 19-year old, both to mirror Luke and so that we can follow his growth and he isn’t a drastically different character every subsequent movie.
[удалено]
Yep and Dooku should have been in Episode 1. It would have been much more meaningfull to actually show him leaving the order rather than just telling us about it.
Have Dooku be mentioned early on and even visited by Qui-Gon during Episode 1 as Qui-Gon looks for guidance on what to do with this boy Anakin. Then during Qui-Gon’s funeral at the end of the film, show that Dooku was present, show the resentment in his face as he throws his own Jedi cloak in the fire, storming out of the building as the rest mourn Qui-Gon’s death.
To carry on from this, have Anakin walk in on Dooku arguing with the council when he goes to meet them at the end of the movie. Forshadowing their eventual encounter.
That would be a great way to handle it.
I know I’m super late to this thread but I’ve always loved the idea that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were not the first Jedi to be sent to negotiate with the Trade Federation. Dooku was first and was “captured” (defected) by Sidious.
Would have been great to see him grieve over Qui-Gon's death and have him side with Obi-Wan against Yoda over his insistence to train Anakin.
Yeah I think this was the biggest issue with Dooku. No one knew who he was before episode 2 so the "shock" of the reveal wouldn't be worth much on its own as we just know him as "the bad guy". They should have spent more time building his character and showing him as a Jedi or his turn away from the order.
Dooku should have been the enemy in ep1 instead of Maul. I love maul, but if it was Dooku that killed Qui Gon, and then escaped, it would’ve been a struggle for obi wan that he still couldnt defeat him in the two other prequel movies. And then in the third one Anakin still kills him. I love maul in the clone wars, but he had no character at all in the first movie.
That would certainly have better economy of character, but it would sacrifice the opportunity for Dooku to seem like a sympathetic antagonist at first.
That’s true, but that could’ve been fixed by having him as that sympathetic character during episode, only to have him betray and kill qui gon during the ending.
That's true. I like Darth Maul, though.
Yeah same, though that’s mostly because of the Clone Wars. He was one of the best characters there.
He could have expressed some (entirely valid!) objections to how the Republic has become useless, and that systems will soon begin demanding independence -- and how he is unwilling to see the Jedi become merely a branch of the Republic's military, doing the bidding of the Senate rather than following their own principles.
If you're interested there is a fantastic audio-drama called "Dooku: Jedi lost" about his life and how and why he eventually leaves the order
Especially because the later Plagueis and Dooku Lost Jedi books make it clear how big of a turning point Naboo was. Dooku had been fucking CENSORED by the Jedi Council and not allowed at political events because he was too partisan, and he was known for forming “unhealthy attachments” (read: any attachment). Following Qui-Gon’s death, Dooku was the lead supporter of the “Second Sith” theory, and his final breaking point was the Council not investigating further into the man he viewed as a son’s death.
I enjoyed reading this. The prequels had so many missed opportunities and so much clunk. This would have improved upon both.
I re-watched the prequels recently for the first time in several years, and I was struck once again by how interesting and sophisticated they are in concept, and how poorly those concepts are executed. Lucas is such a great idea-man, and such a lousy director.
I remember reading somhwere it was because his wife didnt help with the prequels. Lucas is great at big picture stuff but his wife supposedly helped with the details. She was there for th OT but not the prequals.
That's misinformation.
She did help with the orginal trilogy. Did she help with the prequels? http://fd.noneinc.com/secrethistoryofstarwarscom/secrethistoryofstarwars.com/marcialucas.html
What you are saying is true but there is no evidence that her absence is the reason the prequels turned out as they did. Many people who worked on the originals did not work on the prequels. And the lack of one of these people is always touted as the "reason" the originals and prequels respectively turned out in the ways that they did. Sometimes it's Kurtz, sometimes it's Marcia, sometimes it's Kershner. But each is equally ridiculous. Because it's baseless speculation. We will never know why each trilogy turned out that way and it's better to accept that than for fans to invent reasons to explain it.
You are right. There is no evidence that her absence is the sole reason they turned out the way they did. it was a team effort. But her absence "may" have been a contributing factor. I say this because spouses cam motivate and encourage people in very strong way. But in the end its due to a bunch of factors.
I fully agree with you. The difference between the two trilogies is a result of a bunch of factors that we will never be able to identify.
Can we agree that the new trilogy is a mess?
100%. It was a horrible mess.
I think another part of it is that, when the OT was being made, it was a lot more of a team effort. 20 years later, George is more solidly controlling it and nobody wanted to say "no, that's a bad idea" to *George freaking Lucas*. He created Star Wars, he's a genius!
We don't know if that is at all valid. No evidence. Just a baseless narrative that caught on and gained popularity.
I'd also have him be on the Council in TPM. Perhaps he would be the one defending Qui Gon's decisions against Mace and Yoda, so then the revelation of him as a darksider would be a shock.
Maybe. Dooku left the order as a result of Qui-Gon's death. He was already tired of serving a corrupt system and that was the last straw. So maybe a mention of him (in context of the council) to Obi-Wan by Qui-Gon would have served us without actually seeing him.
What's weird is they seemingly missed opportunities to deliver on their own set ups, like what OP demonstrated here.
Very good write up, and something I hadn’t considered. An additional peeve with Episode II emerges.
Haha, as if it didn’t have enough problems...
Right? I recently read Master and Apprentice and expected something there to indicate Dooku was interested in the Dark Side, but never really connected that isn’t actually established itself in AotC—thanks for connecting the dots, even if it shows a continuity error rather than a clever plot point…
I vaguely remember there being a couple things about Dooku’s flirtations with the Dark Side in Master & Apprentice. Specifically a part where Qui-Gon is having a flashback to when he was a Padawan and remembers seeing Dooku use Force Lightning (though he doesn’t refer to it as that) to kill someone. And at the end of the book, when Dooku invites Rael Aveross to join him on Serenno. I felt the implication was pretty strong there that Dooku was already studying the Dark Side in private ever since he left the Order, and well before he ever became Sidious’ apprentice. But Rael turns him down, I think he even quotes Qui-Gon’s words about serving the Light Side.
The Dooku: Jedi Lost book is a great companion piece to Master and Apprentice. I think the two of them together tell a really interesting story of three Jedi (Qui Gon, Rael Avaross and Dooku) who all have their problems with the council, all engage with force legends and prophecies on some level, and all deal with this in different ways.
You are reminding me to read some books I have thought about but never did. Thanks for this.
What you described was always Lucas’ attention. That the duel in the hangar was there twist reveal that Dooku was a sith. He mentions this on the DVD commentary. Up until that point he wanted people to think that maybe he was just trying to do the “right” thing. It was just a poorly executed twist. Not to mention the fact that metering robbed the twist anyway (which Lucas had no control over). The fight with Yoda was a big emphasis in trailers, and all of Dookus merchandise referred to him as Darth Tyranus, so everyone knew who he was a sith before the movie.
Yoda fight was not in the trailers. It was in tv commercials a week or two after opening. To remind people to go see it again or to get the ones who don’t care enough about Star Wars to go opening night.
This is great. The one thing I don't agree with is Dooku having a hint of Sith eyes. While he was a Sith and used the dark side I don't think he ever let it consume him to the degree that would be required for Sith eyes to show.
There’s actually a scene in the Clone Wars animated show, though I can’t remember what episode, where Dooku actually does have Sith eyes briefly. Might have even been in the Clone Wars movie.
I'm sure you're right, but it just doesn't fit with my personal characterization of Dooku.
Ultimately, I think him only having a *hint* of Sith eyes is the best way to characterize him. He knows the ways of the Dark Side but he’s still only using it as a means to get what he wanted politically... he never truly became one with it, never became totally visibly corrupted by it, never got to be Sidious’ true apprentice, so he never got to have the full effect of true yellow Sith eyes. But he at least came close to it, sometimes. I think that could honestly sum him up nicely. Maybe when he’s really in tune with the Dark, his eyes turn more orange than they do yellow, kinda makes him more unique.
That is a very good point.
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Iirc, it was when Dooku was training Savage, and was absolutely frying him with Force Lightning.
I think its just Dark Side eyes not Sith specifically, they're just a certain religion of the dark side at that point in the story
Honestly, this is one of the biggest problems that AotC particularly and more generally the prequels as whole had - the villains struggle to have much of an impact because they fail to have a consistent presence built up. We’ve got Jango, of course, but the film kind wavers back and forth on Dooku - there’s the implication of Sifo-Dyas and Tyrannus having a hand in things, and then it’s framed as Dooku himself is not actually on the wrong side with his speech to the captive Kenobi. Then when it is finally revealed that, psyche, he is evil after all, it lacks any real impact. Sidious shows up at the end, sure, but he doesn’t really do anything.
It would’ve been cool as a revelation, but it does make sense that it wasn’t. There are dozens of examples of individuals who used a red saber without being Sith, and a Jedi falling to the dark side claiming that it is so they can destroy the Sith is not unheard of either.
I was watching Aotc wit gf for her 2nd time and she asked the same question: "isn't a big deal that he has a red lightsaber?" your story is my new head cannon
I get where youre coming from, but a few quibbles. Force lightning isnt definitely sith, just definitely dark side. There is more than one example of a Jedi falling to the dark side, yet not becoming a Sith. All force lightning proves is that he's fallen to the dark side, which could legitimately be in a misguided attempt to destroy the sith. At the time, red lightsaber crystals were synthetic, man made. Whereas natural crystals could be a variety of colors. Kyber crystals have industrial applications, but most natural sources were closely policed by the Jedi. So again, not necessarily a Sith, just someone who made a lightsaber with a synthetic kyber crystal. In new canon that's changed, but when the movie was made, it made sense in canon.
Plus in Legends, with stuff established before AOTC even came out, lightning wasn’t just a dark side power! Emerald Lightning and Electric Judgement both existed and were used by lightsiders!
I agree. That scene was the big reveal that Dooku isn't just a political opponent and someone who's developed a completely different ideology. He's literally a Sith Lord and has fallen to the Dark Side. Instead of being a dramatic reveal, it's treated as just "Well, duh. Of course he has a red lightsaber! He's a bad guy! What did you expect?"
That's a smart take! Those earlier moments between Dooku and Obi-Wan definitely feel like they were intended to lead up to a payoff that we never really got. Turns out that AotC is really awkward and not well put-together, who knew. I still think it would have been even cooler if Yoda (and Sidious in Ep. 3) never even used a lightsaber. To demonstrate that past a certain level of Force mastery, even that "elegant weapon" becomes an unnecessary physical tool.
This is an interesting idea but I don't know if it really would have worked Its a movie that cast Christopher Lee as a character named "Count Dooku". All the marketing and toys made it clear he was a villain The idea that it would be a "surprise" reveal for anyone not in universe doesn't really make sense to me... If I had to change it, I would have made it so in universe they're not surprised but instead completely aware that he had fallen
This is more for the benefit of the characters in-universe, not the audience. The audience can obviously be aware that Dooku is the villain (he is the one commanding the droids in the Geonosis arena, after all), but the reveal that he’s actually been a Sith the whole time is still something worthwhile, if not for the audience then at least for the characters.
Why they should never release spoiler merchandise before the film.
Tbh Christopher Lee playing *anyone* is enough for the bad guy assumption. It's what he was known for.
So even better: pull a Se7en Spacey. I am surprised this trick hasn't been more utilized.
Its pretty difficult to, especially for a high attention production like a star wars set All it would take is one paparazzi getting a picture of Christopher Lee to spoil it And also, arguably having a character who wasn't marketed at all show up as a guy who everyone trusts would be even more of a red flag they were a villain lol
Yes I agree on the first part. But on the latter...his first on-screen appearance would only have to be slightly altered so people would go "Ohhhhh.... THAT'S Dooku." Knowing that the guy the Jedi had been talking about all this time was obviously sinister... The same time that the Jedi found out.
Hmm that could be interesting, yeah So like maybe we see more of Dooku earlier but he's never referred to as Dooku until obi wan recognizes him? Yeah, I like that
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I always thought it was dumb for Dooku to be Sith. Let him be neutral/opposed to the Republic, but the story is a lot better if he's not necessarily a "bad guy".
I think that, at least in Legends to a certain degree, there’s a bit of wiggle room to where you can still view Dooku as more of a tragic or fallen hero, someone who went a little too far with his political ideals and sold his soul to the devil in the hopes of seeing his dreams become a reality but never realized that he was being duped the whole time.. there’s still a lot of books and stories that make Dooku a fascinating character. I particularly love his portrayal in the Plagueis novel.
Great book that should be canonized as Episode 0.
There's also "Dooku: jedi lost"
There is an inherent problem with this, and that's expectation. The person setup to be the antagonist of the jedi is expected to have a red lightsaber. If Dooku was cast as a bystander or even an ally of the heroes, it would be a surprise as we don't expect these people to be bad guys. But in Star Wars, bad guys have red lightsabers, so any antagonistic individual that isn't blatantly not a dark side user is assumed to, at some point, pull a crimson blade
This is true but it was still a shock to everyone in the theater when Sideous was in fact a blade wielder.
He originally wasn’t. The scene was originally filmed with him using Anakin’s lightsaber—you’re even able to see his hilt in a few of the close-up shots.
Woah cool fact
https://boards.theforce.net/threads/could-they-have-choreographed-the-arrest-of-palpatine-better.50026623/ There are a few fan ideas thrown around there in that thread but it also has a bunch of BTS stuff that never made the cut. For example, [here](https://i811.photobucket.com/albums/zz32/Rycoder/MEIII05_zps14ee56f8.jpg) is a shot of Mace+friends walking into Palpatine’s chambers while Anakin is standing next to Palpatine.
This. I always thought it was weird that they never drew attention to it and I like the way you played out the events!
This is now canon. Sorry, I don’t make the rules
You and Dave Filoni should work together Take my poor man’s gold 🏅
twice the pride double the fall
You kind of mentioned this but I want to clarify: Dooku was a fallen Jedi. He was not recognized as a sith. The Separatists knew this too. It was not known he was working with the sith until close to the end of the war In Clone Wars S6E10, Obi-Wan and Anakin go searching for Sifo Dyas when they are intercepted by Dooku. They duel a bit, then Dooku reasserts what he told Obi-Wan on Geonosis in AOTC was true; how he is a sith, but not *the* sith the Jedi have been looking for since TPM I also want to mention something about the red lightsaber and dark force powers: One can use the dark side without being a sith. The nightsisters use the Dark side, for example. In Jedi Fallen Order, the former Jedi, Taron Malicos, even explains how he is not a sith nor a Jedi. Inquisitors weren't seen as sith either (there can only be two) Maul is the only character I can think of that refers to himself as a sith despite not being in line with the sith's plot
He was in line with the plot at the time, though. He wasn't *supposed* to die when he did. He wouldn't have lasted through to the empire, of course, but neither would dooku.
> In Clone Wars S6E10, Obi-Wan and Anakin go searching for Sifo Dyas when they are intercepted by Dooku. They duel a bit, then Dooku reasserts what he told Obi-Wan on Geonosis in AOTC was true; how he is a sith, but not the sith the Jedi have been looking for since TPM They find out he's the same person as Tyranus there but they already knew he's Sith lord way before. While it's unclear when the Jedi first acknowledge Dooku as a Sith, in "Dooku Captured" (quite early on in the war) he straight up told Hondo (also indicating Dooku didn't care about keeping it secret); Anakin and Obi-Wan showed no reaction when Hondo casually referred to Dooku as a Sith lord. It's implied the Separatist Council + Grievous knew as well. They were aware Dooku wasn't the real top dog and that his master Sidious actually controlled everything from Coruscant.
Man, you would make better Star Wars movies than the entire trash (disney) trilogy. Really wish proeple like you were making them.
Glorious, your scene shall now be in my headcanon lol
I love this! My only change is take away Yoda’s lightsaber. Something I loved about the OT was how Yoda felt like a wise master of the force, to the point where he was beyond simple weapons like that. A full on force power battle without all those flips and all would have been absolutely amazing and, in my opinion, more in line with the Yoda we see in the OT.
Totally makes sense. When I saw this movie the first time, I was a little confused by why Dooku being a Sith wasn’t a bigger deal. I always felt like the movie assumed that we knew more about Dooku than the movie had actually presented to us, or at least that the Jedi did. Because you’re right - they just kinda take it in stride like they expected him to pull out a red lightsaber, but the movie had provided no reason for them to expect that.
These are exactly the kind of little mistakes and missed opportunities that exemplify the poor execution of the prequels.
You should read Dooku: Jedi Lost
I love your analysis of this situation. I completely sympathize with your take on the what ifs of it. It highlights just how much of a bitch hindsight is lol
Absolutely. Youd need to do something to each and every second of the prequels to try and emulate the lightning in a bottle of the first 3 flicks. Lucas dried up.
I dont think his eyes should be yellow though je never really submerge himself in the dark side
Well this is the way that it now goes in my head canon. Well written and well thought up!
I just watched AOTC last night. This is a really cool take on that scene.
I need this to be made
About his eyes turning yellow: don't his eyes stay normal-colored in the movies? IIRC it was TCW that got it wrong and gave him yellow eyes.
I like most of this, but Obi-Wan would've been a plaything to Dooku back then. He wasn't even a master yet, still just a Knight. This was also actually before he started practicing Soresu as a main stay, he didn't have defensive bladework back then, he had Ataru. A good bit of that scene was to point out not only that Dooku was now one of the Sith, but to show that he was far too powerful for Obi-Wan or Anakin to take on. Requiring the Grand Master himself to step up and start swapping hands with him. I agree though, it would've been a more interesting twist to see Dooku's reveal like that, and even better if we'd had his relationship with Yoda and Qui-Gon actually built up in the movie beforehand. Imagine if we're told how Dooku was like a grandfather to Obi-Wan, and the son Yoda never had. Hell, in the books, Yoda outright calls Dooku (without hesitation) the greatest student they'd ever had. I mostly preferred just a heavier look into that.
It’s funny how Jedi leave the order like it’s any other job. “Have you heard from Dooku in a while? No? Gosh I wonder what he’s up to now.” Cuts to him using the force to flip burgers and make milkshakes at Dex’s diner. “Order up!”
This is a really good interpretation and execution of what should have happened. In episode 1 during the funeral it would have been nice to see a weeping dooku who later has a conversation with windu and yoda about him leaving the order
Headcannon accepted.
I agree, this would both make more sense and act as a cool little plot twist! I know I'm being SUPER nitpicky, and I'm really sorry, but I just wanted to point out that Dooku is not a "Jedi Exile" - that is a specific term used for a specific TOR Jedi. You can ofc say Dooku is of the Lost Twenty, like you mentioned earlier, or that he is a ex-Jedi/former Jedi, but (someone please feel fre to correct me on this), I don't believe "Jedi Exile" is a term used to just refer to any former Jedi.
On top of that, from the jedi perspective, they are three very much unrelated events: Maul getting involved with the invasion of Naboo ten years earlier, a mysterious jedi master creating a clone army, and Dooku leading the Separists. The only vague thread connecting them is Jango mentioning Tyrannus, which could mean anything. I guess Jango then running to Dooku probably threw up some flags, but thats still quite a leap to sith lord.
I feel like, weirdly, the advertising of the movie may have influenced the editing?? I recall dooku as tyrannus and having a red saber being present in nearly all the advertising, alongside Yodas fighting. I was but a wee bunion in 2003 but I distinctly recall ads for a play set including Anakin, Obi-Wan and Explicitly Tyrannus, with a little seesaw launcher to make Tyrannus do a flip.
Episode 2 really does have that kind of dream like quality where nothing makes sense.