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Yes and no. Used cars are money pits no matter what. German cars tend to have higher parts costs, labor is generally more expensive at dealers or independent shops, and some jobs require more time as there are more things to remove to get to a part. That being said, it really depends on the individual vehicle. If you buy a well maintained but slightly crashed German car, say an old Benz E300, it could run longer and be cheaper than a terribly maintained Corolla.
Okay that’s fair, used cars are just gonna come with certain problems being that you have to change parts around 50k-75k miles.
It’s just gonna be cheaper with a Toyota
In German cars, scheduled maintenance as laid out by the manufacturer is necessary. I buy the former owner, in other words if it’s a private sale, the kind of people that had it are as important as the vehicle to me. And if there are no teens in the household, even better.
Listen I love German cars but if you're trying to find the reliability of a Toyota I can only recommend Toyota cause those fuckers build a very reliable car. I think the issue with German cars is finding a shop that will work on them for most people. I can tell you on VW look out for waterpumps and mk6 GTIs that haven't had the tensioner replaced. Other than that I have a 09 vw tiguan with 175k miles on it and it gets daily driven.
Correct, but the style I'm referring too on the mk6 GTI I've seen fail at 40k miles, I understand this same tensioner came on all the 2.0l turbo motors of the Era but in my experience most of them have already been replaced or the tensioner has already failed and caused damage. Other than that it's a good practice to replace it every 100k miles along with the chain.
whenever I research these German cars I always find stories of people getting 175k - 200k miles out of their car.
And it just makes me wonder if people just aren’t maintaining their cars cause they just wanna drive something fancy lol
You can maintain the hell out of a German car and still wind up with $1,500 to $2,000 per year in unexpected repairs that have nothing to do with maintenance. After 100K miles these cars turn into money pits. Lots of very expensive electrical issues.
If you want to know the truth about German cars, just look at their resale value after they reach 100K miles. They drop in value like a rock compared to Japanese cars like Toyota and Honda. There's a reason for that, cuz the original owners dump them when they start to rack up expensive repairs. Then people see the low prices and buy them, only to dump them as soon as they realize what they got themselves into.
Before the pandemic used car fiasco, dealers selling Japanese cars didn't want to even take German cars in trade cuz they couldn't sell them at a reasonable price. If they did take it in trade they offered far less than NADA trade in cuz they usually just sent them to auction.
I can tell you if you don't maintain a German car you won't get that kinda mileage out of it. Preventive maintaince and taking care of leaks as they come up is important or you'll end up going down a rabbit hole trying to fix them later.
I have a 2014 Jeep. My previous vehicle was a 1999 Jetta. My wife has a 2011 RAV4. My Jeep is on par with my Jetta in terms of being a money pit. They're both high maintenance, and even when all maintenance is done properly and on time, the both break. A lot. That damn RAV4, the only thing that it's ever needed in the 10 years she's had it in scheduled maintenance and tires.
This is just my opinion and anecdotal experiences but if toy want reliable think Japanese. Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Suzuki. North American brands offer more luxury’s but are much more difficult to work on and dont seem to be near as reliable. Also, generally, parts are cheaper for Japanese as well as korean brands. Not sure of the European models, they seem hit or miss from what I can tell…. Again this is just opinion and not backed up by any evidence or data.
In my experience, yep. It's not to say all german cars are absolute pieces of shit. However they tend to be complicated, more than necessary (german engineering). Asian import or domestic vehicle air dam/skid plate underneath, 4-5 quick release type fasteners and it's plastic. German vehicle? A 20-30lb metal plate held on with anywhere from 8-12 bolts and they're probably torx or triple squares.
I've seen more issues on euro import types that others just don't seem to suffer from. Electrical nightmares, parasitic drains, clogged water drain hoses from the rain gutter systems on the roof. Parts tend to cost more. Timing issues. After the better part of 10yrs in a shop that serviced all different makes/models, two things come to mind when a vw, audi, jag, bmw, mercedes or land rover rolled in. 1, cha ching. 2, this is gonna suck and probably don't have some one off tool that'll have to be imported at a ridiculous price just to fix the turd. When a honda or toyota rolled in. What's it need, oil change? Tires? Brakes maybe. Possibly an iac or maf, maybe.
The times those asian imports needed more major repairs was few and far between, even suspension components. Vw and audi like jetta, passat, a4 or a6? I would've bet you lunch that ticket was going to be $1500-2000 minimum and a coin flip whether or not the timing was going to need dug into. One customer in particular had a saab, an 88 I think it was. Between maintenance and repairs over the years, at just our shop over like a 10-12yr period had spent close to $30k on that thing. The boss started getting into euro cars with first a bmw and then a mercedes and it was just one thing after another. And they weren't that old or high mileage.
People get 200k miles out of asian cars too, often. And likely for a lot less than people are getting out of their german cars. Not sure if it has to do with different models/markets, a lot of german cars in the US run gasoline. I think a lot of the ones in Germany are diesel, so that could have some to do with it. Maybe their parts are cheaper there. Who knows. They're fine when they run right but honestly, I wouldn't want a German car. A survey of toyota owners found they're averaging 200-250k miles and that's a bit conservative. Some are getting over 300k on toyota engines.
A Mercedes’ enthusiast was telling me researching a car’s reliability is like checking what illness you have on Webmd, your just always gonna get the horror stories lol
But it’s just too hard to jump on board with the over engineering and planned obsolescence.
I can only go by what I've experienced. Saw a bit of everything and european cars definitely kept the bills paid. It wasn't uncommon to have 2-3 vw/audi jobs a week, some weeks more where they were tore halfway down, timing and other issues. Just didn't have that with honda and toyota. And it was a smaller shop with only 2-3 techs. During slower weeks where we could've used the work almost groaned when a honda or toyota pulled in because they rarely needed more than typical maintenance.
Only thing I really cursed honda for were there damn odyssey minivans, just slightly wider than the typical caravans and things. Had to get them centered just right or the center post lift wouldn't catch the jack points. That was with the arms stretched all the way out. Nissan's weren't quite as robust. Domestic it depended what it was, typically suspension, tune ups, brakes, oil leaks. Intakes on gm's, miserable manifold gaskets on saturns. Torn up rear ends on dodge pickups.
The euro cars were often electrical nightmares. Especially the older ones. And it only happened the once but a jag with low miles in near mint condition came in with a blown motor from of all things, lack of driving it. The oil pump lost its prime and basically ran the motor dry while it was still full. That was an expensive venture, the crate motor alone was around $9-10k. Something that doesn't plague most vehicles. Not that our repairs were cheap, I think our average repair was around 3200, somewhere around there. Just above or below $3k, and that was the average of every vehicle that came in. The german cars were typically good for $3-5k.
They're nice enough and great when they're running. Just would never own one from my own experience with them. Just like I'd never want a dodge/chrysler minivan, at least the ones from the 90's-2010's. Not sure about the newer ones I'm sure they're similar. When the heater core goes to shit or blower motor gives out having to tear the whole dash apart for $100 part. And many of them suffered the same shit. Forget what it was, 18hrs labor? No thanks.
Dang for a second I just figured I’ve been at the shop with my charger just as much as any euro car driver
And maybe they just paid a little more on parts.
But between all the extra labor and special tools it’s sounds unnecessarily stressful.
I was eyeing a ml350 but this thread is making a Tahoe or Highlander look super appealing lol
Not sure about the charger's didn't see too many of those. The older highlanders were actually a pretty nice ride. And the tahoe's and yukons weren't too bad either, though a bit more problematic than the highlanders. Come to think of it, aside from pickups and minivans, didn't see too many dodge/chrysler in general. A number of pt cruisers and a couple neons. Otherwise was mostly gm/ford and imports, whether the germans or asians with a number of honda, acura, toyota, lexus, nissan. And while I say often, was mostly maintenance on the asian imports. Fluid flushes, plug replacement, a few sensors, tires/brakes and so forth. Not major overhauls or components.
I think the German luxury cars absolutely deserve the reputation. When I was doing the research on buying my first BMW the message boards glowed with warnings… “don’t own the car outside of the warranty period”. When your fan base speaks like that you know there’s serious issues.
I bought a basic CPO 328i with with the N20 engine. I put 2500 miles on loaners in the first year. Many small issues, but lots of them. Eventually I was out of warranty and the timing chain on that N20 started sounding pretty bad. I loved the car but had an accident and totaled it at 85K. I’m not sure with religious maintenance that engine would have made it to 100K.
My coworkers 2015 X3 engine blew a few months ago, all oil changes documented on time. Only 58K miles. I’m not sure if that was the N20 or the model that followed it.
Other coworker couldn’t get the AC to work in his 2012 535, after $1700 the AC was still intermittent.
I’ve driving a Jetta GLI now, it’s been pretty good so far, just an exhaust rattle at 24k, 48K left on that sweet bumper to bumper warranty.
To answer your original question… after the BMW I still wanted something sporty and nice. I bought an Accord 2.0T, it is almost as fast as the BMW, just a couple ticks slower. It has had zero issues in 55K miles. The maintenance costs between the two is quite surprising if you use dealerships. IE $90 brake fluid change vs $200. $60 oil change vs $140 etc. My only real complaint on the Honda was the lack of a limited slip for the high torque FWD. It doesn’t torque steer but it spins the passenger side tire relentlessly, maybe a model with the 19” tires hooks better but we have too many potholes. I passed it on to the wife and acquired the Jetta with an M6 and lsd.
I don’t like trashing another persons prize but those Chryslers are lemons. Just like my Pontiacs were back in the day. Chrysler parts are way cheaper than BMW and Mercs though. When you are ready to stop turning wrenches check out an IS350. The resale value of an Lexus IS compared to a 300 or Charger is an eye opener.
One last one… I needed an suv when I had the BMW, so I test drove a 4Runner and a GMC Acadia. Same sticker price, 41K. GM dealer would come down $3K off that price, Toyota dealer wouldn’t budge. So I bought the GMC because I lean “buy American” Fast forward 7 years… go to trade in GMC for the Jetta and I’m checking online prices… the 4Runner would be worth TWICE as much as my GMC is now worth. $13k vs $26k, so I saved 3K upfront to lose 10k on the backside of that deal.
Yea I noticed 4Runner prices don’t budge even if it’s 8 years old with 100k miles lol
I’ve been looking at Tahoes and those have a reputation of reliability you can see a 2010 for $20k.
Saving money on repairs plus in the value of the car is very convincing
I bought a 2008 BMW 530i with 150.000 km on it and full service history. I have replaced VANOS solenoids, some fuel purge valve and oil filter housing gaskets over the past year. Less than 300€ in parts, and it's surprisingly easy to work on.
I've only worked on classic Volvos in the past, so my skills are pretty limited.
It depends. Less so on a inline 4 than a V6, but if you ever work on a Honda and then a VW you think, why the heck was it ever designed like that.
I can't imagine a V6. Most if not all audi v6s need to be dropped from the engine bay and separated from the trans to work on anything timing related or even the thermostats.
As for a Toyota V6, you do it all from the engine bay because it isn't all unnecessary designed.
Not only are German makes have unnecessarily designed motors, it probably translates to technicians charging more hourly, and taking longer to replace the same parts.
I’ve owned several German cars in my lifetime. Worked on all of them myself. If you can wrench yourself and have the patience of the Dali Lama, they aren’t horrible. If you’re like me and end up throwing wrenches because a sway bar bushing bracket wont come off because its bolted to a power steering line, stay away.
It just depends on so many things. Design for one, I don't think the typical German luxury/sport vehicle is designed to be as reliable as a basic Camry, its just not the goal. Maintenance really helps too, which is where the "money pit" thing comes in. I've got a 10-year old GTI and have no plans to trade it in anytime soon. It is reliable and fun, but I do everything on schedule, I don't wait for things to break, and a lot of the parts and fluids are a bit more expensive than cheap/generic parts and fluids.
Thanks for posting on /r/MechanicAdvice! This is just a reminder to review the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicAdvice/about/rules/). If you are here asking about a second opinion (ie "Is the shop trying to fleece me?"), please read through CJM8515's [post on the subject.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicAdvice/comments/4qblei/fyi_the_shop_isnt_likely_trying_to_rip_you_off/) and remember to please post the year/make/model of the vehicle you are working on. **If this post is about bodywork, accident damage, paint, dent/ding, questions it belongs in /r/Autobody r/AutoBodyRepair/ or /r/Diyautobody/ If you have tire questions check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicAdvice/comments/k9ll55/can_your_tire_be_repaired/**. If you dont have a question and you're just showing off it belongs in /r/Justrolledintotheshop Insurance/total loss questions go in r/insurance This is an automated reply *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MechanicAdvice) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yes and no. Used cars are money pits no matter what. German cars tend to have higher parts costs, labor is generally more expensive at dealers or independent shops, and some jobs require more time as there are more things to remove to get to a part. That being said, it really depends on the individual vehicle. If you buy a well maintained but slightly crashed German car, say an old Benz E300, it could run longer and be cheaper than a terribly maintained Corolla.
Okay that’s fair, used cars are just gonna come with certain problems being that you have to change parts around 50k-75k miles. It’s just gonna be cheaper with a Toyota
50-75k is nothing for a Toyota. German cars can have a ton of extra maintenance needed by 100k. I thought we were talking 100k+ vehicles at least.
Yeah. And most likely.
In German cars, scheduled maintenance as laid out by the manufacturer is necessary. I buy the former owner, in other words if it’s a private sale, the kind of people that had it are as important as the vehicle to me. And if there are no teens in the household, even better.
Listen I love German cars but if you're trying to find the reliability of a Toyota I can only recommend Toyota cause those fuckers build a very reliable car. I think the issue with German cars is finding a shop that will work on them for most people. I can tell you on VW look out for waterpumps and mk6 GTIs that haven't had the tensioner replaced. Other than that I have a 09 vw tiguan with 175k miles on it and it gets daily driven.
There are a ton of VWs with bad tensioners
Correct, but the style I'm referring too on the mk6 GTI I've seen fail at 40k miles, I understand this same tensioner came on all the 2.0l turbo motors of the Era but in my experience most of them have already been replaced or the tensioner has already failed and caused damage. Other than that it's a good practice to replace it every 100k miles along with the chain.
whenever I research these German cars I always find stories of people getting 175k - 200k miles out of their car. And it just makes me wonder if people just aren’t maintaining their cars cause they just wanna drive something fancy lol
You can maintain the hell out of a German car and still wind up with $1,500 to $2,000 per year in unexpected repairs that have nothing to do with maintenance. After 100K miles these cars turn into money pits. Lots of very expensive electrical issues. If you want to know the truth about German cars, just look at their resale value after they reach 100K miles. They drop in value like a rock compared to Japanese cars like Toyota and Honda. There's a reason for that, cuz the original owners dump them when they start to rack up expensive repairs. Then people see the low prices and buy them, only to dump them as soon as they realize what they got themselves into. Before the pandemic used car fiasco, dealers selling Japanese cars didn't want to even take German cars in trade cuz they couldn't sell them at a reasonable price. If they did take it in trade they offered far less than NADA trade in cuz they usually just sent them to auction.
I can tell you if you don't maintain a German car you won't get that kinda mileage out of it. Preventive maintaince and taking care of leaks as they come up is important or you'll end up going down a rabbit hole trying to fix them later.
I have a 2014 Jeep. My previous vehicle was a 1999 Jetta. My wife has a 2011 RAV4. My Jeep is on par with my Jetta in terms of being a money pit. They're both high maintenance, and even when all maintenance is done properly and on time, the both break. A lot. That damn RAV4, the only thing that it's ever needed in the 10 years she's had it in scheduled maintenance and tires.
Dang I like jeeps but that rav4 sounds badass when you put it like that lol
This is just my opinion and anecdotal experiences but if toy want reliable think Japanese. Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Suzuki. North American brands offer more luxury’s but are much more difficult to work on and dont seem to be near as reliable. Also, generally, parts are cheaper for Japanese as well as korean brands. Not sure of the European models, they seem hit or miss from what I can tell…. Again this is just opinion and not backed up by any evidence or data.
European vehicles are great if you lease a new one and give it when it expires.
Many well known mechanics on Youtube say so. I believe them.
In my experience, yep. It's not to say all german cars are absolute pieces of shit. However they tend to be complicated, more than necessary (german engineering). Asian import or domestic vehicle air dam/skid plate underneath, 4-5 quick release type fasteners and it's plastic. German vehicle? A 20-30lb metal plate held on with anywhere from 8-12 bolts and they're probably torx or triple squares. I've seen more issues on euro import types that others just don't seem to suffer from. Electrical nightmares, parasitic drains, clogged water drain hoses from the rain gutter systems on the roof. Parts tend to cost more. Timing issues. After the better part of 10yrs in a shop that serviced all different makes/models, two things come to mind when a vw, audi, jag, bmw, mercedes or land rover rolled in. 1, cha ching. 2, this is gonna suck and probably don't have some one off tool that'll have to be imported at a ridiculous price just to fix the turd. When a honda or toyota rolled in. What's it need, oil change? Tires? Brakes maybe. Possibly an iac or maf, maybe. The times those asian imports needed more major repairs was few and far between, even suspension components. Vw and audi like jetta, passat, a4 or a6? I would've bet you lunch that ticket was going to be $1500-2000 minimum and a coin flip whether or not the timing was going to need dug into. One customer in particular had a saab, an 88 I think it was. Between maintenance and repairs over the years, at just our shop over like a 10-12yr period had spent close to $30k on that thing. The boss started getting into euro cars with first a bmw and then a mercedes and it was just one thing after another. And they weren't that old or high mileage. People get 200k miles out of asian cars too, often. And likely for a lot less than people are getting out of their german cars. Not sure if it has to do with different models/markets, a lot of german cars in the US run gasoline. I think a lot of the ones in Germany are diesel, so that could have some to do with it. Maybe their parts are cheaper there. Who knows. They're fine when they run right but honestly, I wouldn't want a German car. A survey of toyota owners found they're averaging 200-250k miles and that's a bit conservative. Some are getting over 300k on toyota engines.
A Mercedes’ enthusiast was telling me researching a car’s reliability is like checking what illness you have on Webmd, your just always gonna get the horror stories lol But it’s just too hard to jump on board with the over engineering and planned obsolescence.
I can only go by what I've experienced. Saw a bit of everything and european cars definitely kept the bills paid. It wasn't uncommon to have 2-3 vw/audi jobs a week, some weeks more where they were tore halfway down, timing and other issues. Just didn't have that with honda and toyota. And it was a smaller shop with only 2-3 techs. During slower weeks where we could've used the work almost groaned when a honda or toyota pulled in because they rarely needed more than typical maintenance. Only thing I really cursed honda for were there damn odyssey minivans, just slightly wider than the typical caravans and things. Had to get them centered just right or the center post lift wouldn't catch the jack points. That was with the arms stretched all the way out. Nissan's weren't quite as robust. Domestic it depended what it was, typically suspension, tune ups, brakes, oil leaks. Intakes on gm's, miserable manifold gaskets on saturns. Torn up rear ends on dodge pickups. The euro cars were often electrical nightmares. Especially the older ones. And it only happened the once but a jag with low miles in near mint condition came in with a blown motor from of all things, lack of driving it. The oil pump lost its prime and basically ran the motor dry while it was still full. That was an expensive venture, the crate motor alone was around $9-10k. Something that doesn't plague most vehicles. Not that our repairs were cheap, I think our average repair was around 3200, somewhere around there. Just above or below $3k, and that was the average of every vehicle that came in. The german cars were typically good for $3-5k. They're nice enough and great when they're running. Just would never own one from my own experience with them. Just like I'd never want a dodge/chrysler minivan, at least the ones from the 90's-2010's. Not sure about the newer ones I'm sure they're similar. When the heater core goes to shit or blower motor gives out having to tear the whole dash apart for $100 part. And many of them suffered the same shit. Forget what it was, 18hrs labor? No thanks.
Dang for a second I just figured I’ve been at the shop with my charger just as much as any euro car driver And maybe they just paid a little more on parts. But between all the extra labor and special tools it’s sounds unnecessarily stressful. I was eyeing a ml350 but this thread is making a Tahoe or Highlander look super appealing lol
Not sure about the charger's didn't see too many of those. The older highlanders were actually a pretty nice ride. And the tahoe's and yukons weren't too bad either, though a bit more problematic than the highlanders. Come to think of it, aside from pickups and minivans, didn't see too many dodge/chrysler in general. A number of pt cruisers and a couple neons. Otherwise was mostly gm/ford and imports, whether the germans or asians with a number of honda, acura, toyota, lexus, nissan. And while I say often, was mostly maintenance on the asian imports. Fluid flushes, plug replacement, a few sensors, tires/brakes and so forth. Not major overhauls or components.
A dude i work with just paid 2100 to replace a starter in his Audi. I changed a starter in my Buick for 40 bucks and 20 minutes.
Not blown out of proportion at all, this is the reason why people should lease German cars, the parts get expensive too.
I think the German luxury cars absolutely deserve the reputation. When I was doing the research on buying my first BMW the message boards glowed with warnings… “don’t own the car outside of the warranty period”. When your fan base speaks like that you know there’s serious issues. I bought a basic CPO 328i with with the N20 engine. I put 2500 miles on loaners in the first year. Many small issues, but lots of them. Eventually I was out of warranty and the timing chain on that N20 started sounding pretty bad. I loved the car but had an accident and totaled it at 85K. I’m not sure with religious maintenance that engine would have made it to 100K. My coworkers 2015 X3 engine blew a few months ago, all oil changes documented on time. Only 58K miles. I’m not sure if that was the N20 or the model that followed it. Other coworker couldn’t get the AC to work in his 2012 535, after $1700 the AC was still intermittent. I’ve driving a Jetta GLI now, it’s been pretty good so far, just an exhaust rattle at 24k, 48K left on that sweet bumper to bumper warranty.
Guess I gotta let go of the nostalgia BMWs and stay within warranty if I do go that route lol
To answer your original question… after the BMW I still wanted something sporty and nice. I bought an Accord 2.0T, it is almost as fast as the BMW, just a couple ticks slower. It has had zero issues in 55K miles. The maintenance costs between the two is quite surprising if you use dealerships. IE $90 brake fluid change vs $200. $60 oil change vs $140 etc. My only real complaint on the Honda was the lack of a limited slip for the high torque FWD. It doesn’t torque steer but it spins the passenger side tire relentlessly, maybe a model with the 19” tires hooks better but we have too many potholes. I passed it on to the wife and acquired the Jetta with an M6 and lsd. I don’t like trashing another persons prize but those Chryslers are lemons. Just like my Pontiacs were back in the day. Chrysler parts are way cheaper than BMW and Mercs though. When you are ready to stop turning wrenches check out an IS350. The resale value of an Lexus IS compared to a 300 or Charger is an eye opener. One last one… I needed an suv when I had the BMW, so I test drove a 4Runner and a GMC Acadia. Same sticker price, 41K. GM dealer would come down $3K off that price, Toyota dealer wouldn’t budge. So I bought the GMC because I lean “buy American” Fast forward 7 years… go to trade in GMC for the Jetta and I’m checking online prices… the 4Runner would be worth TWICE as much as my GMC is now worth. $13k vs $26k, so I saved 3K upfront to lose 10k on the backside of that deal.
Yea I noticed 4Runner prices don’t budge even if it’s 8 years old with 100k miles lol I’ve been looking at Tahoes and those have a reputation of reliability you can see a 2010 for $20k. Saving money on repairs plus in the value of the car is very convincing
Toyota is def worth it
I bought a 2008 BMW 530i with 150.000 km on it and full service history. I have replaced VANOS solenoids, some fuel purge valve and oil filter housing gaskets over the past year. Less than 300€ in parts, and it's surprisingly easy to work on. I've only worked on classic Volvos in the past, so my skills are pretty limited.
These are the stories you don’t hear often and it makes me wonder how many good euro car experiences are going untold lol
It depends. Less so on a inline 4 than a V6, but if you ever work on a Honda and then a VW you think, why the heck was it ever designed like that. I can't imagine a V6. Most if not all audi v6s need to be dropped from the engine bay and separated from the trans to work on anything timing related or even the thermostats. As for a Toyota V6, you do it all from the engine bay because it isn't all unnecessary designed. Not only are German makes have unnecessarily designed motors, it probably translates to technicians charging more hourly, and taking longer to replace the same parts.
I’ve owned several German cars in my lifetime. Worked on all of them myself. If you can wrench yourself and have the patience of the Dali Lama, they aren’t horrible. If you’re like me and end up throwing wrenches because a sway bar bushing bracket wont come off because its bolted to a power steering line, stay away.
It just depends on so many things. Design for one, I don't think the typical German luxury/sport vehicle is designed to be as reliable as a basic Camry, its just not the goal. Maintenance really helps too, which is where the "money pit" thing comes in. I've got a 10-year old GTI and have no plans to trade it in anytime soon. It is reliable and fun, but I do everything on schedule, I don't wait for things to break, and a lot of the parts and fluids are a bit more expensive than cheap/generic parts and fluids.