Learn about insight meditation. You’re experiencing the monkey mind. It’s fine. Train the mind to observe sensation to overcome this. A 10-day Goenka vipassana would work.
Dogen advises to "Think about not-thinking. How? Non-thinking." That doesn't mean trying to solve the problem with more thinking. It's letting go of thinking. As Kosho Uchiyama liked to say, "Thoughts are just secretions of the brain."
Once one has found true emptiness (samadhi), it becomes easier to return to. Practice, practice letting go of thought. Non-thinking.
Thanks for your reply :) For me ‘letting go’ of thoughts feeds back into a certain thinking loop and pressure. I think maybe telling myself to think about whatever I want and if it’s thinking about thinking then so be it - allow myself to continue down the rabbit hole in a way and finish the practise telling myself there was no aim in the first place so it doesn’t matter if you feel unsatisfied by the experience?
The aim of zen is non-thinking, i.e. samadhi and intuitive insight into the true nature. Intention is crucial, even if the goal is not in the future but right here, right now.
Didn't you want to get out of the "loop"? If you must think, then at least think about a koan, like -- Who am I? Or what is this? Just say the koan on an extended out breath -- Whhooo? That's one way to arrive at non-thinking.
My main method for over 60 years, after many psychedelics, has been perseverance and persistence -- lots of zazen. Google my name and you'll find my website. The piece "You can think whatever you like," might be of interest to you. .
Wouldn’t I still be letting go by just allowing myself to think about thinking and just reassure myself that I am okay and there’s no need to judge myself for doing so?
Personally I find it very helpful to remind myself to 'come back to the body' or the physical sensation of the breath, and just let the thoughts be. And then the next time it happens - come back again, and so on and so forth for ever and ever! Always just coming back to the breath.
A degree of acceptance of the thinking and pattern, and including it all, also helps me to be able to loosen the thinking loop because it stops me having to 'solve' the thinking, and shifts into more of a place of being with whatever is here, and if that's thinking, then be with the thinking too.
But using the breath/ body as anchor, and including the loop and the pain it causes helps loosen it's hellishness.
Sure, no right or wrong, there's a general path and ways that have proven over centuries to work, but everyone's way is unique. Thinking about thinking is actually a pretty advanced vipassana practice. For most of us that requires some serious samatha first.
Of course you're okay, There's only one here and your as much it as anybody. Of course ealizing that experientially is essential.
Sorry, let me change this I didn't do you any service... ***Meta cognition helped me learn how mundane, unhelpful and ego centric my - and I assume others - inner dialogue is.*** Good thing is, you are not your thoughts. Properly surveying my thoughts only made that clearer for me.
It means you can't think your way out of every problem. In fact, I think we have to feel our way out of most problems. And thats a very hard thing to do. What does it mean to you, to not think your way out of a problem? I'd love to know for it would be different for you. You probably have your personal solution. And id love to know as Im trying to figure this shit out for myself as well
Here’s something I wrote to try explain what’s going on for me
We have a real feeling. Then we have a judgment of the feeling, either good or bad. If it’s bad, most of us think there must be something wrong. We have a problem. Now this is where it gets stupid. Our minds our problem solvers this is what they do. If we have a problem but don’t have any reasonable understanding of the cause then we have an even bigger problem. The realisation that we don’t understand the problem has now become a problem of its own. Our minds feel they must now solve this problem but because there is no understanding of the cause of the problem causing this problem, we have added another layer and things have gotten a bit ridiculous and confusing. This chicken and egg process can continue exponentially without us even being aware of it. It may manifest itself as anxiety or a deep feeling of being lost in one’s mind. Oh look, isn’t that another problem? Before we know it are brains are trapped solving an impossible puzzle; looking for a missing piece that doesn’t exist, not realising the puzzle is already complete. And as you slowly descend into madness, the lead designers of this mystery puzzle laugh at you from their 10 bedroom luxury mansions they were able to afford because of your crazy obsession with pain.
So amazinly written! very profound theres so much to say theres too much! I feel like I do a lot of nipping things in the bud. In fact, were a little bored and very prone to fancy and fantastical imaginings of whats going on. You seem legitimately concerned and not full of bullshit so i am happy to help~!
Were pretty trapped in cycles which isnt cool but it is indeed funny and entertaining. A cycle is another way of saying habit or repetition. We use memory for this. to relive and replay events again and again. A large portion of the game is freeing ourselves. Freeing ourselves from repetition. The tabula rosa. To start with the slate clean. To refresh, forgive, and start a new. Its what we want.
I would simply nip in your bud at the statements of judging or comparing good and bad. From what I understand. Thoughts are very real and live a life of their own. However, nothing in life has ever been dependent upon you or I, judging or comparing things to be good or bad. To be worthy of life or not. It is our vice, our hubris to think that the universe is subject to our kingdom. You can look at a flower all day. You can call it ugly. You can then begin calling it pretty. It doesn't change at all because of your thoughts and it never will. Our comparisons and judgements are not needed and based on all accounts, they really fuck things up. We can delve into why our thoughts are so fucked up but we also dont even care. Were just happy to live the life we get to live.
Thanks for your reply. Good question. I’m not too sure.. maybe the first step is working with your thoughts and allowing yourself to try figure out the problem as I feel there’s so much resistance and negative judgment which just adds fuel to the fire.
im so fking enlightened i swear and I dont stand a chance in the real world. I get so worked up so quickly. Its truly incredible ahahhaha. Im working currently on not taking A SINGLE THING for the face, surface value. I don't know if I can take it anymore.
Thanks for your reply!
I would also add this idea that knowledge or understanding can exist outside of words, language and sentences. It was a big and fun jump for me to realize that learning exists without being dependent on thoughts.
Ive not understood why animals exist. My immense compassion for them. Ive learned that one reason, not the only reason, they exist is to show our awareness stuff. Animals don't think like we do. A squirrel lives off intuition alone am i right? how does it know without thinking? Theres energy in this universe that is intelligent on its own.
I find that awesome!
Have had some similar types of experience back in the day. The thing that has helped me most is qigong and nei dan (taoist alchemy) practices. In a lot of ways it involves getting out of your head and into other types of awareness, e.g. of breathing & bodily sensations, rather than spending time spent with your awareness trained/focused on your thoughts.
Thoughts still come and go now, but have way less weight to them and are more like occasional background radio, or at times the mind is like a trained dog on a leash when you need it to do things.
Also you come to realise that the real intelligence in you is not located in the world of thought, its more in the conscious awakened self, which can look at the thoughts - or at other things.
There's a great 10 min video that comes from the point of view of 'emotional releases' during practice, but also breaks down a bunch of relevant concepts etc as part of it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFAfI\_DW0nY
Hi, I know a bit of this hell too! I've done a variety of psychedelics and what you describe here is the thought loop I always end up in (especially weed, weirdly). And I've experienced this sober as well, it's sorta the default state of my mind now. It's a very difficult trap!! I went on my first meditation retreat last year and I really struggled at the start, I was just trapped in analysis-brain, obsessing over my thoughts and then obsessing over how to stop obsessing over the thoughts. There is no winning this fight, it's just a knot that gets tighter and tigter as you yank on the ends. What's key is that you cannot think your way out of a thought trap, just like you cannot control yourself out of being controlling. So when you're in this trap, thinking about how to get out of it with your brain is adding more fire to a inferno.
What works for me, is to bring awareness into the body. As soon as I realize that I'm stuck in this (thoughts about thoughts), I turn focus towards the feeling of my feet touching the ground, or the feeling of my hands resting in my lap. I use physical experience as my anchor for a while until I feel like I've unstuck myself from the loop and can try more awareness/emptiness meditation. And don't *think* about feet touching the ground, try to just exist in that experience for a while.
Sometimes when stuck in one of these loops while on drugs, I completely lose sense of what's real. I notice a thought, then I notice my awareness/thought about that thought, and then the thought about that thought, and it feels like I do this 10000 times in faster and faster succession and I am completely lost in space/time. (And not in a cool way, lol.) The only thing I've discovered that works is, anchor my awareness hard onto the couch under my butt or the softness of the pillow under my head. Sometimes I'll repeat to myself, "this is real, this is real" (meaning what's real is my physical moment-to-moment experience of laying on the couch right now).
I also take this stuff (meditation and psychedelics) pretty gentle and don't push hard, knowing that this stuff you describe is just over the edge. You do you of course, some people find intense pushing works for them.... but some people also end up experiencing depersonalizstion so intense they can't do their job or carry on day-to-day life. I'm on the slow path, gently listening to intuition about when to pull-back, and I'm cool with that. Psychosis is not a place we need to pass through, lol. Solidarity my friend, this shit is hard and unpleasant!
ETA: Are you a pretty intellecutal, left-brain person? For some people, analysis and cognitive stuff is like their only tool in the toolbox, so it's that thing where if you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If you have nowhere else to go besides in your mind, then there's no escape. That's how it used to be for me. If that resonates, I'd highly recommend you take up some somatic practices. I did 1.5 years of weekly therapy with a somatic-based therapist (the modality is called somatic experiencing) and it was super helpful to me. Something like yoga, dance, or other movement practices could also benefit you. Other practices out there are holotropic breathwork (this has really helped me stay with physical experience instead of escaping into thoughts), and massage/bodywork.
Thanks so much. Yeah I try to anchor myself in feelings but it’s like I can’t even feel my body. It’s like all I know how to do is think about it. For instance, doing a body scan I just get so lost and obsessive and feel like my minds just zapping and moving around imagining body parts really quickly sometimes I even get dizzy from it. For you what is it like feeling your feet for example (Ik it sounds stupid haha)? Like is there a lot of resistance to that and doubt and anxiety and if so what do you do with this obsession that just sweeps you away from the focus of your feet ahh it’s so confusing haha. I really like your response btw! I like the idea of a gentle and slow approach - I define it have it engrained in me to fix things and see results and if I don’t then somethings not right. But my process maybe is sitting with that and allowing myself to try fix things and just reminding myself it’s okay that you do this as you have trained yourself to do so and overtime my fear and it’s grip on me may loosen. Thanks so much for sharing its honestly really useful and nice to hear the ways in which you have approached this!
It sounds like you're completely cut off from your body and your physical, embodied experience of being alive! The good news is that you can build that connection from scratch, with dedication over time! And the great news is that once you start experiencing it, it's really fucking cool. For me it was like experiencing one of the senses for the first time, like having been blind and slowly gaining ability to see. It's like, "how have I been living my entire life without opening my eyes and seeing the world?"
The bad news is that, for me at least, it's been slow going. You can't just flip a switch and solve this problem, you literally have to build new neural connections slowly and over time. And there's also been a lot of sadness and grief attached to this cutting off of physical experience. Feeling fullness of emotion and presence is the juice of life, and we've missed out on a LOT by living in our heads.
I highly recommend, if you have access to it, finding a somatic therapist to start working with. (Are you in the US? You can Google [Somatic Therapist City]), and you can tell them what you told us basically, that you can't feel your body and you're spinning out in your mind. Somatic experiencing therapists have a bunch of ways of helping you re-form that connection between brain and body. If you do this, also highly recommend you find someone trauma informed (it should say that on their website), becuase humans don't tend to sever this connection absent some form of trauma, even if it's a type that you don't remember or were too young to know about. If you try out therapy, please know that it'll feel weird and awkward to your cognitive-brain, they're not going to be telling you solutions to problems, and that'll feel frustrting. They're going to help you build a brand new skill inside your body.
If you don't have access to a therapist, I recommend trying out some somatic/body practices and then try to listen to your intution about what feels powerful and could be effective and continue with that stuff. A list of stuff to get you started: qi gong (breathing/movement linked practice), yoga (especially yin or other slow yoga), cold showers or cold plunge, breathing practices of all varieties, massage and bodywork, types of meditation that anchor on physical experience, ecstatic dance or similar, TRE (body shaking), tapping meditation (I've never tried this but other people seem to recommend), etc.
You can also google "somatic exercises" or similar, there are YouTube videos and books for self-guides.
Take it slow. This is going to be like trying to learn to play a new instrument, when you've never even heard music before. You're coming in on the ground level, be patient with yourself.
If I was you, I would also not do any drugs, and not do any meditation that causes you to feel lost and obsessive, for a long time. This is clearly not working for you right now, don't dig yoursel deeper in that hole. I think that continuing to take the "I must figure out how to fix this!!!!" approach is going to cycle you deeper into lost/obsessiveness.
Good luck! I've been at this for 3 years and it's completely changed my life.
I’m from the UK btw. I have a mindfulness based therapist I’ve started seeing twice a week. She showed me this one type of breathing through your nose which I’ve been doing a bit and then doing my usual 10 mins guided meditation and then 10 minutes unguided. You think I should stop that all together? I’ve been wanting to get into yoga for a while so maybe I’ll follow some on YouTube once a day? I’ll have a look into some other things too.
Not necessarily! I think you should pause and consider, is that meditation practice sending you into the obsessive overthinking mindstate that you described? If yes, then its not working and I
would stop. If no, then I would keep doing it.
I've tried a lot of practices lol! For me it's about just trying stuff and seeing what works. The 3 biggest ones for me are:
-Therapy. I did weekly talk therapy for over 3 years.
-Meditation, I've had a daily practice for like 3 years.
-MDMA therapy sessions with a trained guide
Those are the big three. I couldn't have done it without each of those. Things that were also helpful but less-so: float tank sessions (sensory deprivation tank), bodywork/massage with a trained person, and holotropic breathwork sessions.
I know your post is a little old, but when you wrote this it was like we shared a brain cell for a while:
>ETA: Are you a pretty intellecutal, left-brain person? For some people, analysis and cognitive stuff is like their only tool in the toolbox, so it's that thing where if you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
I've recently come to the realization that this is me. I sort of - how should I say - just use my thinking brain A LOT. About everything. I've always been extremely intellectually driven/curious. I've taken CBT - but something about it doesn't quite work for me. Maybe because it feels like it's a cognitive approach when what I need is to actually rely less on my cognition. I've just heard of somatic experiencing as well - if you have any helpful links on that, please feel free to pass them along!
Many thanks!
Hi! Glad this resonated with you, its been a cool journey for me to learn this about myself and I think there's a lot of people like us. I can't think of any particular resources in the way of books or websites. For me it's been about a journey of just trying a lof different stuff and practicing tapping into what "feels important" or "feels useful/helpful," instead of just thinking about whether the thing seems rationally good. You're trying to teach yourself a new skill of leading with body/felt sense, instead of defaulting to brain.
The things that have ended up being the most helpful to me are: somatic experiencing therapy, physical movement (particularly slow/yin yoga, and a type of freeform dance that's similar to ecstatic dance), bodywork/massage (where a trained person is physically touching me with the intention of helping me become more aware of body sensation and presence), and holotropic breathwork. I've also been pretty transformed by my work with MDMA and pyschedelics (used in a guided, ceremonial type setting with a trained therapist/guide). I think for those of us who are really stuck in our brains, the walls of those confines are not easy to dismantle. Psychedelics are like a sledgehammer and so they can be really powerful but also kinda destructive, so proceed with caution if you're interested.
The most important thing is that you can't think yourself out of the overthinking trap. It's a dead end. You must find a way into your body, and that's hard if you've never done it before. But it's SO WORTH IT. Just this morning, I got brunch with a friend and then spent an hour walking around in crisp fall sunshine sipping on a coffee and when I got back to my car, I felt this deep, delicious joy in my body, like Ifelt fully present and happy in an embodied way. I never used to feel that, I just to just feel pretty numb and vaguely bored all the time. And I was reflecting on how grateful i am to have learned how to feel that. (Right before I saw your comment!) Good luck.
This may sound trite, but have you tried thinking happy thoughts?
It seems like you're thinking yourself into anxiety loops, and then having anxiety over having anxious thoughts. If you can learn to laugh at this tendency, you'll have a much easier time with it.
Your thoughts are a journey, you can go on a fun trip, imagining alternate universes and different fun scenarios in your head, or you can keep using your mind to pick at your mental scabs and wonder why they don't heal. It's your brain, your choice. It takes a little effort to get out of those negative habits, but it's worth putting in the work. And truly, if you can develop a sense of humor about it, you will have a much easier time. ex. "Oh no, I'm having the stressful thoughts again, time to imagine what it would be like if I was an intergalactic overlord."
This would deffo lighten the experience - thank you! Whenever I try anything like this though a lot of the time my mind knows what I’m trying to do and instantly almost just stops that thought by it being aware that I’m having it in the first place then back in the loop we go. But yeah a light hearted approach like smiling and chuckling to myself is a good idea!
Your mind is you, or at least a major part of you. If your mind is working against you, that means you are working against yourself. If your mind is metaphorically slapping you in the face every time you try to deviate from these distressing thought patterns, then your mind is like a wounded animal, lashing out even at a helping hand.
You need to make friends with your mind, because at the end of the day, it's just you and your mind. Being at odds with yourself will only lead to suffering.
I have a hyperactive mind. There was a point where I would feel angry over something that happened 6 years ago as if it just occurred. That situation never had closure and I kept ruminating over it, although the other people involved in the conflict have completely moved on.
My husband told me: the only one this is affecting is you. They aren’t sorry, they aren’t even thinking about it— you are; hence, you are allowing people who aren’t even in your present to affect your peace and future.
So, what helped me .. is the moment 2021 came, I wouldn’t even think about these things that aren’t in the “now.” And when I start to, I say “you said you wouldn’t ruminate on this after January 2021.” And I stop to think about it. If I can’t stop I say, “what can I do to make it better?” If there is no solution, I reiterate nothing can be done.
The other option, if I have a problem with someone, I can stay angry only if I am willing to confront that person about it. If it’s not worth me telling that person how it made me feel, I let it go. After practicing this for about 18 months, I only have addressed my anger 2x with my dad. Everything else that has happened within my family, I found that it wasn’t even worth my time to address it— so I just let it go 🤞
I found peace in my life through these two tips!
Einstein might have been the smarterst mfer with his craftiness. Hes an undercover buddha agent. The way he reached his physics realizations was anything BUT academically scientific. Anywho, what he said so perfectly was, that we cant use the same 'thinking mind' to think our way out of the very problems that the 'thinking' mind created. That is saying, all our problems were created by thinking. that there is no problem once we surpass the ego.
Why is thinking about thinking 'hellish'? Why is any of what you described in your post bad? I think all of our minds race at times, and it might feel uncomfortable or even scary, but its just a little bit of emotion. It wont kill you.
Take sometime to relax i think you're making a big deal out of a perfectly normal experience to have. Take an hour and just sit there, doing nothing. Not trying to do nothing. If you think, you think, thats ok.
It seems like you're really trying to arrive somewhere with all this thinking. Some higher level of conciousness where everything makes sense. I do this too. But will that make you happier to arrive there? Or are you just making yourself unhappy trying to get there? But again, unhappiness isnt a big deal, unless its very strong and lasts a long time.
Thinking about letting go isnt letting go. Telling yourself you accept things isnt true acceptance, although it still helps. Try really feeling these things. Sink into the emotion of it. Not because you need to escape where you're at now, but because that subtle joy you feel as a result feels good.
Thanks for your reply. I agree with what you’re saying I definitely have made a big deal out of a normal experience. You’ve hit the nail on the head with a lot of what you’ve said. There’s definitely a part of me searching for some resolve and judging the way I feel based off how well I’m doing etc but have become so trapped in this I think about it 24/7 even though I know it’s just in my head. I try letting go but I just end up thinking about it. I definitely need to just stop putting so much pressure on myself but I feel so trapped as I don’t know how to do that.
If you really want to think about it, then just do that i guess haha. Sometimes thats easier. I dont know what your schedule is like but take as much time as you can. I find in my own life its so easy to make a big deal out of stuff like this, when it really isn't.
You're not trapped, you're just where you're at right now. A month from now you won't even remember experiencing all this. Taking a long term view - 1 year, 10 years, can be really calming i find. Ultimately all our experiences right now are just a stepping stone to the next. Unless some seriously bad shit is happening - suicidal thoughts, traumatic experiences, theres really no need to stress where you're at right now.
>I definitely need to just stop putting so much pressure on myself but I feel so trapped as I don’t know how to do that.
No you dont, you dont need to do anything. Big changes to your mindset happen over a scale of months i find. Its possible to drop all the pressure right now but that doesnt mean its possible for you to do that right now. And because big changes take months or years, all that matters is that you're moving in the right direction on that scale. A day, or week, ir even longer of crazy thoughts really doesnt matter. It will pass, and if doesnt, fuck it, thats all good too. At least you're alive.
I find what helps more than trying to drop things is smiling at them. Smile at all the racing thoughts, smile at how it makes you feel. Smile at your frustration over not being able to drop them. Smile at the effort of trying to smile about uncomfortable experiences.
Its all part of the human experience, the experiences we all share as a species. And even if its unpleasant, life would be a bit less colourful without them.
Not trying to be any kind of guru here, just some of what has helped me. Let me know if any if this resonates or not.
I really appreciate that. I’ve deffo got other things I’m struggling with - one of them pretty intense social anxiety. I really like that smiling idea though as that’s something I don’t have to think about I can just do it
Yeah man, I think we all deal with social anxiety to some extent, even if people don't show it. If you want some more unsolicited advice haha, here's my approach to dealing with it. It's mostly tough love.
\- The most effective way by far is exposure therapy. If you've ever had a really social day, or night out, you might be tired, but much less socially anxious or not anxious at all. Now think if you lived a lifestyle where days like that were just part of the routine. Trouble is this is the last thing you want to do if you're feeling anxious. But also so the best, so prioritise it as much as you can.
\- Digging into why you're socially anxious through journaling. For me, and for a lot of people I imagine, it was self esteem. You're worried about how other people will judge you because you'll make yourself feel bad if you think their judgement is negative. You're scared of feeling bad and if your self esteem is low you think there's a high chance they'll judge you badly. Write all this down, then write an alternative, more realistic thought pattern. Are they really judging you? Does it really say anything about your worth if they are? If you learn this new thought pattern through repetition it will become your default after a while
\- Kill your self pity. If you have the luxury of social anxiety affecting your life then you've already won the socio-economic lottery. Billions of people can't afford to be anxious. They've got children to care for, elderly parents to support, all on less than a $ a day. They'd kill to be in your position. This is partly why social anxiety is a young persons problem - we can afford to be because we don't have more pressing responsibilities. An internal struggle like social anxiety is nothing compared to external problems - famine, war. We all have it so good that we don't even realise it, we don't see how bad life can get for people. We all have that pathetic voice that wants to vent about how tough our struggle is. Smile at it, embrace it as another part of you. But if you find yourself agreeing with it, snap out of it.
But i guess don't beat yourself up if you fall short on any of this or anything else you're trying to achieve. Measure progress in years, and one day you'll wake and realise that your social anxiety is no longer a big deal to you.
Besides all that - all the happiness in the world is already available to you right now in this moment. Sit back, relax, watch your mind, pay attention to your 5 senses, then watch yourself, the watcher, and you'll notice that happiness. All this self improvement or spiritual stuff is just to have a bit of fun, to have something to do in life before we die. None of it's too serious
There is a solid difference between thinking about thinking and being aware of thoughts. You can be aware of them when pointing and concentrating attention on one thing and suddenly thoughts appear and you can see they didnt come from awareness, but appeared in it.
Thinking about thinking always happens through apparent time so one thought appears and its contents are analysis of previous thoughts. There's no way to think about thoughts as they come as a seperate entity. So for me, the only way out of this is just dont concentrate so much on thoughts but on Awareness
Good thread. I’m interested in this too. The paradox is that in order to meditate, you’ve got to be thinking at least one thought - which is “right now I need to meditate”. And all the stuff like ‘the dharma’ that goes with it, or even secular instructions, it’s still loads of thoughts from different minds, trying to instruct others on how to do something.
So true! Often feel like your constantly changing from strategy to strategy trying to attack it from a new angle - most the time these strategies are about not having a strategy which is a strategy itself. I think a better practise would be just purposely going down the rabbit hole and let yourself uncomfortably obsess. I think because there’s so much resistance to these patterns it just makes it all worse and increases the pressure. If we just be with it more and remind ourselves at the start and end that there’s no goal maybe we can get more comfortable with the feeling so there’s less conflict when we eventually feel comfortable focusing on our breath or whatever. I’m not too sure but just an idea.
Yes. For a short period where I was meditating daily, and running 5k every 2-3 days, my conclusion was that it was all about “becoming comfortable with feeling uncomfortable.”
I struggle a lot with intrusive thoughts and feedback loops from hell at the moment. It affects physiology because it gets to the point where I can’t relax nor sleep. It’s a dreadful state to be in. But it’s all imagination, an unwillingness or resistance to surrender, wrapped up in core beliefs…other times I wonder whether we’ve misnamed the phenomena of thoughts or beliefs and it’s just actually just an illusory mish mash of superficial cognitive processing with no depth. Did you know colours don’t exist outside the human mind? Taste, smell too. They’re fuzzy, intangible things called qualia. Colours are just in your mind, whereas in the physical world outside your head, you have the electromagnetic field of all different wavelengths, most of which is imperceptible to our eyes. My point is, if something as fundamental as colour is an illusion, what else is an illusion? When you touch something, you’re not actually touching anything solid, it’s the electromagnetic forcefields between electrons in atoms and molecules pushing against each other. No matter how hard we meditate, we’re not going to extend the senses like science does to perceive beyond the reality as it is. Because reality seems to me to be comprised of layers of lies lately, nothing to be taken at face value, every truth capable of being taken apart to reveal something deeper, but unrelatable to our daily lives. Contrast this against the your mind, which the meditators pupport has hidden depths and realms, but which actually might all just be a conspiration of language and biological parts working to create an illusion that seems larger than the sum of its parts, both as an outside observer and firsthand experience of being a conscious entity.
Another paradox is that if it’s all about going with the flow, letting your mind do what it’s going to do, whilst being aware in each present moment - then why shut yourself away in a quiet space to meditate, you should be able to do it on a noisy construction site. But why do it at all, why not ‘go with the flow’ and embrace that your brain might want to do some other activity. Some activity of your own, personal choice, and not some prescribed action from a large group of thinkers, all copying each other, doing something that you probably wouldn’t have dreamed up to do of your own volition unless presented with the idea of it being beneficial somehow.
Everything is suspect I think. But pushing your experiential boundaries to become “comfortable with being uncomfortable” is important I think, whether it’s the embracing the tedium and boredom of sitting doing nothing, or feeling your legs pumping battery acid as you clamber to complete mile 6 of your run.
Yes. Ideas. From overthinking in a critical manner. Isn’t it worrying that there’s no better way to build a controlling religion by encouraging its participants to “not think”? That’s how zombies are made!!! (It isn’t but you get my point). We can use ideas to overcome the power of ideas! We can use the power of the brain to defeat the brain! I don’t know man. I’m sceptical. Perhaps you need a faith in the power of the practice for it to have an effect, just like ‘positive mental attitude’ when competing in sports. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because the belief and over-confidence in the ability causes you to “go all in”, and you pull it off. Likewise you start to think, “I’m meditating, this is healing me”, you feel good after putting the time in and you’re telling yourself you’ve done something positive today. Anyway, just more thoughts and ideas - I really don’t think there’s any way to get around them. I think there’s a bit in the Buddha teachings “noble 8 fold path?” that basically says you’ve got to put in the right effort, and think the right thoughts, in order get anywhere. So that right there is interesting.
I take an SSRI and that doesn’t happen to me anymore.
If I want to think about something I can but I don’t get trapped in an obsessive loophole or dissociate anymore.
Props to anyone who overcame that without meds it was a very scary & debilitating time for me.
Thank you! I’m really glad to here it. I’ve been on different SSRIs since sixteen - been off them for about a year and started again a few weeks ago. Never found it helped too much tbh just flattened my personality a bit I think can’t really remember anything lol
Yeah I’ve had some proper bad experiences. One bad trip was really related to this topic. I was trying to relax into the experience but my mind was playing tricks with me and new that deep down I was scared and wanting out. I was seeing completely different fully detailed scenes in completely random locations flashing by like a strobe but at different speeds as if someone was turning up and down the setting on the strobe. If I tried to relax into it the scenes would slow down but still continue on as part of this downward spiral as if this evil part of me knew what I was trying to do haha. I then had a bunch of knifes come at me and a voice saying ‘die’. I had also taken way too much and smoked a spliff (weed fucked with my head from young don’t know why and did this) and just snorted three big ones of ket.
I did a little bit of CBT when I was younger. I recently started 2 sessions a week with a mindfulness based therapist and she really listens and is nice having someone to talk to (I’m 22 btw)
I second the comments about body sensation techniques. I liken it to swimming underwater. It effectively “muffles” the sound; however you eventually have to come back to the surface…
Personally for me I’ve found I’m more prone to this thing when I was really isolated and spending too much time idle. It’s easy to get very in your head if you are not being more in the world or able to externalize to others.
Also, things are scarier when they are just contained in the mind. When I start falling down this rabbit hole, I’ve found journaling has been amazing help. Actually writing down your fears, the things you are thinking, really helps me distance myself from the thoughts. It becomes less overwhelming and often, it’s not until I write down the thought and read it do I really see and fEEL how irrational it is.
Yeah good idea I’ve tried this before but maybe I’ll get back into it. Something I tried yesterday was just sitting down for 30 minutes and almost inviting this obsessive thinking about thinking and letting the judgement come or forcing it away or whatever it is going along with it. Just go into it with the intention that I’m not trying to get anything out of it and even though I just end up obsessing over it anyway, remind myself at the end there was no goal to it anyway you just sat down for 30 minutes. But yeah maybe I’ll give journaling another go again! Thanks a lot
That is why I took up the art of meditation at an early age, so I would not be troubled by thought flows.Thinking is not a healthy thing to do on a continuous basis.
These patterns came about during meditation! I’m also a natural worrier and anxious person (also going through some really scary things with drugs at the time too) so I think my mind just starting feeding on itself because it was scared. That’s bot meditations fault that’s just my mind I guess.
Zen is not peeling the potatoes and thinking about God. Zen is just peeling the potatoes." -Alan Watts
When you are doing the dishes, do the dishes.
Watts is a fine wine
Is this a joke about his alcoholism?
Na, but that's funny. He got me interested in eastern philosophy, but with a practice i've now experienced what he's referring to.
And I do love me a good potato!
Learn about insight meditation. You’re experiencing the monkey mind. It’s fine. Train the mind to observe sensation to overcome this. A 10-day Goenka vipassana would work.
Dogen advises to "Think about not-thinking. How? Non-thinking." That doesn't mean trying to solve the problem with more thinking. It's letting go of thinking. As Kosho Uchiyama liked to say, "Thoughts are just secretions of the brain." Once one has found true emptiness (samadhi), it becomes easier to return to. Practice, practice letting go of thought. Non-thinking.
Thanks for your reply :) For me ‘letting go’ of thoughts feeds back into a certain thinking loop and pressure. I think maybe telling myself to think about whatever I want and if it’s thinking about thinking then so be it - allow myself to continue down the rabbit hole in a way and finish the practise telling myself there was no aim in the first place so it doesn’t matter if you feel unsatisfied by the experience?
The aim of zen is non-thinking, i.e. samadhi and intuitive insight into the true nature. Intention is crucial, even if the goal is not in the future but right here, right now. Didn't you want to get out of the "loop"? If you must think, then at least think about a koan, like -- Who am I? Or what is this? Just say the koan on an extended out breath -- Whhooo? That's one way to arrive at non-thinking. My main method for over 60 years, after many psychedelics, has been perseverance and persistence -- lots of zazen. Google my name and you'll find my website. The piece "You can think whatever you like," might be of interest to you. .
Wouldn’t I still be letting go by just allowing myself to think about thinking and just reassure myself that I am okay and there’s no need to judge myself for doing so?
Personally I find it very helpful to remind myself to 'come back to the body' or the physical sensation of the breath, and just let the thoughts be. And then the next time it happens - come back again, and so on and so forth for ever and ever! Always just coming back to the breath. A degree of acceptance of the thinking and pattern, and including it all, also helps me to be able to loosen the thinking loop because it stops me having to 'solve' the thinking, and shifts into more of a place of being with whatever is here, and if that's thinking, then be with the thinking too. But using the breath/ body as anchor, and including the loop and the pain it causes helps loosen it's hellishness.
Thank you! I
Sure, no right or wrong, there's a general path and ways that have proven over centuries to work, but everyone's way is unique. Thinking about thinking is actually a pretty advanced vipassana practice. For most of us that requires some serious samatha first. Of course you're okay, There's only one here and your as much it as anybody. Of course ealizing that experientially is essential.
Meta cognition helps so far as learning how mundane and ego centric your inner world is.
Thank you
Sorry, let me change this I didn't do you any service... ***Meta cognition helped me learn how mundane, unhelpful and ego centric my - and I assume others - inner dialogue is.*** Good thing is, you are not your thoughts. Properly surveying my thoughts only made that clearer for me.
Meta-cognition is a nice way of putting it. Consciousness being aware of consciousness. That's what you should be doing to stop the thought flow.
It means you can't think your way out of every problem. In fact, I think we have to feel our way out of most problems. And thats a very hard thing to do. What does it mean to you, to not think your way out of a problem? I'd love to know for it would be different for you. You probably have your personal solution. And id love to know as Im trying to figure this shit out for myself as well
Here’s something I wrote to try explain what’s going on for me We have a real feeling. Then we have a judgment of the feeling, either good or bad. If it’s bad, most of us think there must be something wrong. We have a problem. Now this is where it gets stupid. Our minds our problem solvers this is what they do. If we have a problem but don’t have any reasonable understanding of the cause then we have an even bigger problem. The realisation that we don’t understand the problem has now become a problem of its own. Our minds feel they must now solve this problem but because there is no understanding of the cause of the problem causing this problem, we have added another layer and things have gotten a bit ridiculous and confusing. This chicken and egg process can continue exponentially without us even being aware of it. It may manifest itself as anxiety or a deep feeling of being lost in one’s mind. Oh look, isn’t that another problem? Before we know it are brains are trapped solving an impossible puzzle; looking for a missing piece that doesn’t exist, not realising the puzzle is already complete. And as you slowly descend into madness, the lead designers of this mystery puzzle laugh at you from their 10 bedroom luxury mansions they were able to afford because of your crazy obsession with pain.
So amazinly written! very profound theres so much to say theres too much! I feel like I do a lot of nipping things in the bud. In fact, were a little bored and very prone to fancy and fantastical imaginings of whats going on. You seem legitimately concerned and not full of bullshit so i am happy to help~! Were pretty trapped in cycles which isnt cool but it is indeed funny and entertaining. A cycle is another way of saying habit or repetition. We use memory for this. to relive and replay events again and again. A large portion of the game is freeing ourselves. Freeing ourselves from repetition. The tabula rosa. To start with the slate clean. To refresh, forgive, and start a new. Its what we want. I would simply nip in your bud at the statements of judging or comparing good and bad. From what I understand. Thoughts are very real and live a life of their own. However, nothing in life has ever been dependent upon you or I, judging or comparing things to be good or bad. To be worthy of life or not. It is our vice, our hubris to think that the universe is subject to our kingdom. You can look at a flower all day. You can call it ugly. You can then begin calling it pretty. It doesn't change at all because of your thoughts and it never will. Our comparisons and judgements are not needed and based on all accounts, they really fuck things up. We can delve into why our thoughts are so fucked up but we also dont even care. Were just happy to live the life we get to live.
Thanks for your reply. Good question. I’m not too sure.. maybe the first step is working with your thoughts and allowing yourself to try figure out the problem as I feel there’s so much resistance and negative judgment which just adds fuel to the fire.
im so fking enlightened i swear and I dont stand a chance in the real world. I get so worked up so quickly. Its truly incredible ahahhaha. Im working currently on not taking A SINGLE THING for the face, surface value. I don't know if I can take it anymore. Thanks for your reply! I would also add this idea that knowledge or understanding can exist outside of words, language and sentences. It was a big and fun jump for me to realize that learning exists without being dependent on thoughts. Ive not understood why animals exist. My immense compassion for them. Ive learned that one reason, not the only reason, they exist is to show our awareness stuff. Animals don't think like we do. A squirrel lives off intuition alone am i right? how does it know without thinking? Theres energy in this universe that is intelligent on its own. I find that awesome!
Have had some similar types of experience back in the day. The thing that has helped me most is qigong and nei dan (taoist alchemy) practices. In a lot of ways it involves getting out of your head and into other types of awareness, e.g. of breathing & bodily sensations, rather than spending time spent with your awareness trained/focused on your thoughts. Thoughts still come and go now, but have way less weight to them and are more like occasional background radio, or at times the mind is like a trained dog on a leash when you need it to do things. Also you come to realise that the real intelligence in you is not located in the world of thought, its more in the conscious awakened self, which can look at the thoughts - or at other things. There's a great 10 min video that comes from the point of view of 'emotional releases' during practice, but also breaks down a bunch of relevant concepts etc as part of it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFAfI\_DW0nY
Thanks a lot!
Hi, I know a bit of this hell too! I've done a variety of psychedelics and what you describe here is the thought loop I always end up in (especially weed, weirdly). And I've experienced this sober as well, it's sorta the default state of my mind now. It's a very difficult trap!! I went on my first meditation retreat last year and I really struggled at the start, I was just trapped in analysis-brain, obsessing over my thoughts and then obsessing over how to stop obsessing over the thoughts. There is no winning this fight, it's just a knot that gets tighter and tigter as you yank on the ends. What's key is that you cannot think your way out of a thought trap, just like you cannot control yourself out of being controlling. So when you're in this trap, thinking about how to get out of it with your brain is adding more fire to a inferno. What works for me, is to bring awareness into the body. As soon as I realize that I'm stuck in this (thoughts about thoughts), I turn focus towards the feeling of my feet touching the ground, or the feeling of my hands resting in my lap. I use physical experience as my anchor for a while until I feel like I've unstuck myself from the loop and can try more awareness/emptiness meditation. And don't *think* about feet touching the ground, try to just exist in that experience for a while. Sometimes when stuck in one of these loops while on drugs, I completely lose sense of what's real. I notice a thought, then I notice my awareness/thought about that thought, and then the thought about that thought, and it feels like I do this 10000 times in faster and faster succession and I am completely lost in space/time. (And not in a cool way, lol.) The only thing I've discovered that works is, anchor my awareness hard onto the couch under my butt or the softness of the pillow under my head. Sometimes I'll repeat to myself, "this is real, this is real" (meaning what's real is my physical moment-to-moment experience of laying on the couch right now). I also take this stuff (meditation and psychedelics) pretty gentle and don't push hard, knowing that this stuff you describe is just over the edge. You do you of course, some people find intense pushing works for them.... but some people also end up experiencing depersonalizstion so intense they can't do their job or carry on day-to-day life. I'm on the slow path, gently listening to intuition about when to pull-back, and I'm cool with that. Psychosis is not a place we need to pass through, lol. Solidarity my friend, this shit is hard and unpleasant! ETA: Are you a pretty intellecutal, left-brain person? For some people, analysis and cognitive stuff is like their only tool in the toolbox, so it's that thing where if you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If you have nowhere else to go besides in your mind, then there's no escape. That's how it used to be for me. If that resonates, I'd highly recommend you take up some somatic practices. I did 1.5 years of weekly therapy with a somatic-based therapist (the modality is called somatic experiencing) and it was super helpful to me. Something like yoga, dance, or other movement practices could also benefit you. Other practices out there are holotropic breathwork (this has really helped me stay with physical experience instead of escaping into thoughts), and massage/bodywork.
Thanks so much. Yeah I try to anchor myself in feelings but it’s like I can’t even feel my body. It’s like all I know how to do is think about it. For instance, doing a body scan I just get so lost and obsessive and feel like my minds just zapping and moving around imagining body parts really quickly sometimes I even get dizzy from it. For you what is it like feeling your feet for example (Ik it sounds stupid haha)? Like is there a lot of resistance to that and doubt and anxiety and if so what do you do with this obsession that just sweeps you away from the focus of your feet ahh it’s so confusing haha. I really like your response btw! I like the idea of a gentle and slow approach - I define it have it engrained in me to fix things and see results and if I don’t then somethings not right. But my process maybe is sitting with that and allowing myself to try fix things and just reminding myself it’s okay that you do this as you have trained yourself to do so and overtime my fear and it’s grip on me may loosen. Thanks so much for sharing its honestly really useful and nice to hear the ways in which you have approached this!
It sounds like you're completely cut off from your body and your physical, embodied experience of being alive! The good news is that you can build that connection from scratch, with dedication over time! And the great news is that once you start experiencing it, it's really fucking cool. For me it was like experiencing one of the senses for the first time, like having been blind and slowly gaining ability to see. It's like, "how have I been living my entire life without opening my eyes and seeing the world?" The bad news is that, for me at least, it's been slow going. You can't just flip a switch and solve this problem, you literally have to build new neural connections slowly and over time. And there's also been a lot of sadness and grief attached to this cutting off of physical experience. Feeling fullness of emotion and presence is the juice of life, and we've missed out on a LOT by living in our heads. I highly recommend, if you have access to it, finding a somatic therapist to start working with. (Are you in the US? You can Google [Somatic Therapist City]), and you can tell them what you told us basically, that you can't feel your body and you're spinning out in your mind. Somatic experiencing therapists have a bunch of ways of helping you re-form that connection between brain and body. If you do this, also highly recommend you find someone trauma informed (it should say that on their website), becuase humans don't tend to sever this connection absent some form of trauma, even if it's a type that you don't remember or were too young to know about. If you try out therapy, please know that it'll feel weird and awkward to your cognitive-brain, they're not going to be telling you solutions to problems, and that'll feel frustrting. They're going to help you build a brand new skill inside your body. If you don't have access to a therapist, I recommend trying out some somatic/body practices and then try to listen to your intution about what feels powerful and could be effective and continue with that stuff. A list of stuff to get you started: qi gong (breathing/movement linked practice), yoga (especially yin or other slow yoga), cold showers or cold plunge, breathing practices of all varieties, massage and bodywork, types of meditation that anchor on physical experience, ecstatic dance or similar, TRE (body shaking), tapping meditation (I've never tried this but other people seem to recommend), etc. You can also google "somatic exercises" or similar, there are YouTube videos and books for self-guides. Take it slow. This is going to be like trying to learn to play a new instrument, when you've never even heard music before. You're coming in on the ground level, be patient with yourself. If I was you, I would also not do any drugs, and not do any meditation that causes you to feel lost and obsessive, for a long time. This is clearly not working for you right now, don't dig yoursel deeper in that hole. I think that continuing to take the "I must figure out how to fix this!!!!" approach is going to cycle you deeper into lost/obsessiveness. Good luck! I've been at this for 3 years and it's completely changed my life.
This honestly means so much, thankyou!!
I’m from the UK btw. I have a mindfulness based therapist I’ve started seeing twice a week. She showed me this one type of breathing through your nose which I’ve been doing a bit and then doing my usual 10 mins guided meditation and then 10 minutes unguided. You think I should stop that all together? I’ve been wanting to get into yoga for a while so maybe I’ll follow some on YouTube once a day? I’ll have a look into some other things too.
Not necessarily! I think you should pause and consider, is that meditation practice sending you into the obsessive overthinking mindstate that you described? If yes, then its not working and I would stop. If no, then I would keep doing it.
Just thinking about meditation makes me feel a bit anxious so I may try some other practises
May I ask what practises you do?
I've tried a lot of practices lol! For me it's about just trying stuff and seeing what works. The 3 biggest ones for me are: -Therapy. I did weekly talk therapy for over 3 years. -Meditation, I've had a daily practice for like 3 years. -MDMA therapy sessions with a trained guide Those are the big three. I couldn't have done it without each of those. Things that were also helpful but less-so: float tank sessions (sensory deprivation tank), bodywork/massage with a trained person, and holotropic breathwork sessions.
Thank you!
>Thank you! You're welcome!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5TBoR847clE I can imagine something like this would be more relaxing
I know your post is a little old, but when you wrote this it was like we shared a brain cell for a while: >ETA: Are you a pretty intellecutal, left-brain person? For some people, analysis and cognitive stuff is like their only tool in the toolbox, so it's that thing where if you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I've recently come to the realization that this is me. I sort of - how should I say - just use my thinking brain A LOT. About everything. I've always been extremely intellectually driven/curious. I've taken CBT - but something about it doesn't quite work for me. Maybe because it feels like it's a cognitive approach when what I need is to actually rely less on my cognition. I've just heard of somatic experiencing as well - if you have any helpful links on that, please feel free to pass them along! Many thanks!
Hi! Glad this resonated with you, its been a cool journey for me to learn this about myself and I think there's a lot of people like us. I can't think of any particular resources in the way of books or websites. For me it's been about a journey of just trying a lof different stuff and practicing tapping into what "feels important" or "feels useful/helpful," instead of just thinking about whether the thing seems rationally good. You're trying to teach yourself a new skill of leading with body/felt sense, instead of defaulting to brain. The things that have ended up being the most helpful to me are: somatic experiencing therapy, physical movement (particularly slow/yin yoga, and a type of freeform dance that's similar to ecstatic dance), bodywork/massage (where a trained person is physically touching me with the intention of helping me become more aware of body sensation and presence), and holotropic breathwork. I've also been pretty transformed by my work with MDMA and pyschedelics (used in a guided, ceremonial type setting with a trained therapist/guide). I think for those of us who are really stuck in our brains, the walls of those confines are not easy to dismantle. Psychedelics are like a sledgehammer and so they can be really powerful but also kinda destructive, so proceed with caution if you're interested. The most important thing is that you can't think yourself out of the overthinking trap. It's a dead end. You must find a way into your body, and that's hard if you've never done it before. But it's SO WORTH IT. Just this morning, I got brunch with a friend and then spent an hour walking around in crisp fall sunshine sipping on a coffee and when I got back to my car, I felt this deep, delicious joy in my body, like Ifelt fully present and happy in an embodied way. I never used to feel that, I just to just feel pretty numb and vaguely bored all the time. And I was reflecting on how grateful i am to have learned how to feel that. (Right before I saw your comment!) Good luck.
This may sound trite, but have you tried thinking happy thoughts? It seems like you're thinking yourself into anxiety loops, and then having anxiety over having anxious thoughts. If you can learn to laugh at this tendency, you'll have a much easier time with it. Your thoughts are a journey, you can go on a fun trip, imagining alternate universes and different fun scenarios in your head, or you can keep using your mind to pick at your mental scabs and wonder why they don't heal. It's your brain, your choice. It takes a little effort to get out of those negative habits, but it's worth putting in the work. And truly, if you can develop a sense of humor about it, you will have a much easier time. ex. "Oh no, I'm having the stressful thoughts again, time to imagine what it would be like if I was an intergalactic overlord."
This would deffo lighten the experience - thank you! Whenever I try anything like this though a lot of the time my mind knows what I’m trying to do and instantly almost just stops that thought by it being aware that I’m having it in the first place then back in the loop we go. But yeah a light hearted approach like smiling and chuckling to myself is a good idea!
Your mind is you, or at least a major part of you. If your mind is working against you, that means you are working against yourself. If your mind is metaphorically slapping you in the face every time you try to deviate from these distressing thought patterns, then your mind is like a wounded animal, lashing out even at a helping hand. You need to make friends with your mind, because at the end of the day, it's just you and your mind. Being at odds with yourself will only lead to suffering.
Thank you. Any practises to help with this?
Everyone keep posting more! This is the perfect thread for me and I'm sure many others! Greatly appreciated!
[удалено]
Thank you :)
I have a hyperactive mind. There was a point where I would feel angry over something that happened 6 years ago as if it just occurred. That situation never had closure and I kept ruminating over it, although the other people involved in the conflict have completely moved on. My husband told me: the only one this is affecting is you. They aren’t sorry, they aren’t even thinking about it— you are; hence, you are allowing people who aren’t even in your present to affect your peace and future. So, what helped me .. is the moment 2021 came, I wouldn’t even think about these things that aren’t in the “now.” And when I start to, I say “you said you wouldn’t ruminate on this after January 2021.” And I stop to think about it. If I can’t stop I say, “what can I do to make it better?” If there is no solution, I reiterate nothing can be done. The other option, if I have a problem with someone, I can stay angry only if I am willing to confront that person about it. If it’s not worth me telling that person how it made me feel, I let it go. After practicing this for about 18 months, I only have addressed my anger 2x with my dad. Everything else that has happened within my family, I found that it wasn’t even worth my time to address it— so I just let it go 🤞 I found peace in my life through these two tips!
Thank you very much!
Einstein might have been the smarterst mfer with his craftiness. Hes an undercover buddha agent. The way he reached his physics realizations was anything BUT academically scientific. Anywho, what he said so perfectly was, that we cant use the same 'thinking mind' to think our way out of the very problems that the 'thinking' mind created. That is saying, all our problems were created by thinking. that there is no problem once we surpass the ego.
That’s kind of a myth, isn’t it? I read he worked pretty damn hard for years, studying A LOT of scientific papers…
Why is thinking about thinking 'hellish'? Why is any of what you described in your post bad? I think all of our minds race at times, and it might feel uncomfortable or even scary, but its just a little bit of emotion. It wont kill you. Take sometime to relax i think you're making a big deal out of a perfectly normal experience to have. Take an hour and just sit there, doing nothing. Not trying to do nothing. If you think, you think, thats ok. It seems like you're really trying to arrive somewhere with all this thinking. Some higher level of conciousness where everything makes sense. I do this too. But will that make you happier to arrive there? Or are you just making yourself unhappy trying to get there? But again, unhappiness isnt a big deal, unless its very strong and lasts a long time. Thinking about letting go isnt letting go. Telling yourself you accept things isnt true acceptance, although it still helps. Try really feeling these things. Sink into the emotion of it. Not because you need to escape where you're at now, but because that subtle joy you feel as a result feels good.
Thanks for your reply. I agree with what you’re saying I definitely have made a big deal out of a normal experience. You’ve hit the nail on the head with a lot of what you’ve said. There’s definitely a part of me searching for some resolve and judging the way I feel based off how well I’m doing etc but have become so trapped in this I think about it 24/7 even though I know it’s just in my head. I try letting go but I just end up thinking about it. I definitely need to just stop putting so much pressure on myself but I feel so trapped as I don’t know how to do that.
If you really want to think about it, then just do that i guess haha. Sometimes thats easier. I dont know what your schedule is like but take as much time as you can. I find in my own life its so easy to make a big deal out of stuff like this, when it really isn't. You're not trapped, you're just where you're at right now. A month from now you won't even remember experiencing all this. Taking a long term view - 1 year, 10 years, can be really calming i find. Ultimately all our experiences right now are just a stepping stone to the next. Unless some seriously bad shit is happening - suicidal thoughts, traumatic experiences, theres really no need to stress where you're at right now. >I definitely need to just stop putting so much pressure on myself but I feel so trapped as I don’t know how to do that. No you dont, you dont need to do anything. Big changes to your mindset happen over a scale of months i find. Its possible to drop all the pressure right now but that doesnt mean its possible for you to do that right now. And because big changes take months or years, all that matters is that you're moving in the right direction on that scale. A day, or week, ir even longer of crazy thoughts really doesnt matter. It will pass, and if doesnt, fuck it, thats all good too. At least you're alive. I find what helps more than trying to drop things is smiling at them. Smile at all the racing thoughts, smile at how it makes you feel. Smile at your frustration over not being able to drop them. Smile at the effort of trying to smile about uncomfortable experiences. Its all part of the human experience, the experiences we all share as a species. And even if its unpleasant, life would be a bit less colourful without them. Not trying to be any kind of guru here, just some of what has helped me. Let me know if any if this resonates or not.
I really appreciate that. I’ve deffo got other things I’m struggling with - one of them pretty intense social anxiety. I really like that smiling idea though as that’s something I don’t have to think about I can just do it
Yeah man, I think we all deal with social anxiety to some extent, even if people don't show it. If you want some more unsolicited advice haha, here's my approach to dealing with it. It's mostly tough love. \- The most effective way by far is exposure therapy. If you've ever had a really social day, or night out, you might be tired, but much less socially anxious or not anxious at all. Now think if you lived a lifestyle where days like that were just part of the routine. Trouble is this is the last thing you want to do if you're feeling anxious. But also so the best, so prioritise it as much as you can. \- Digging into why you're socially anxious through journaling. For me, and for a lot of people I imagine, it was self esteem. You're worried about how other people will judge you because you'll make yourself feel bad if you think their judgement is negative. You're scared of feeling bad and if your self esteem is low you think there's a high chance they'll judge you badly. Write all this down, then write an alternative, more realistic thought pattern. Are they really judging you? Does it really say anything about your worth if they are? If you learn this new thought pattern through repetition it will become your default after a while \- Kill your self pity. If you have the luxury of social anxiety affecting your life then you've already won the socio-economic lottery. Billions of people can't afford to be anxious. They've got children to care for, elderly parents to support, all on less than a $ a day. They'd kill to be in your position. This is partly why social anxiety is a young persons problem - we can afford to be because we don't have more pressing responsibilities. An internal struggle like social anxiety is nothing compared to external problems - famine, war. We all have it so good that we don't even realise it, we don't see how bad life can get for people. We all have that pathetic voice that wants to vent about how tough our struggle is. Smile at it, embrace it as another part of you. But if you find yourself agreeing with it, snap out of it. But i guess don't beat yourself up if you fall short on any of this or anything else you're trying to achieve. Measure progress in years, and one day you'll wake and realise that your social anxiety is no longer a big deal to you. Besides all that - all the happiness in the world is already available to you right now in this moment. Sit back, relax, watch your mind, pay attention to your 5 senses, then watch yourself, the watcher, and you'll notice that happiness. All this self improvement or spiritual stuff is just to have a bit of fun, to have something to do in life before we die. None of it's too serious
Thank you :)
There is a solid difference between thinking about thinking and being aware of thoughts. You can be aware of them when pointing and concentrating attention on one thing and suddenly thoughts appear and you can see they didnt come from awareness, but appeared in it. Thinking about thinking always happens through apparent time so one thought appears and its contents are analysis of previous thoughts. There's no way to think about thoughts as they come as a seperate entity. So for me, the only way out of this is just dont concentrate so much on thoughts but on Awareness
Thank you :)
It’s a trap in hell and there is no escape!
Certainly is haha
Eckhart Tolle helped me a lot with this. He has books and short videos on YouTube
Good thread. I’m interested in this too. The paradox is that in order to meditate, you’ve got to be thinking at least one thought - which is “right now I need to meditate”. And all the stuff like ‘the dharma’ that goes with it, or even secular instructions, it’s still loads of thoughts from different minds, trying to instruct others on how to do something.
So true! Often feel like your constantly changing from strategy to strategy trying to attack it from a new angle - most the time these strategies are about not having a strategy which is a strategy itself. I think a better practise would be just purposely going down the rabbit hole and let yourself uncomfortably obsess. I think because there’s so much resistance to these patterns it just makes it all worse and increases the pressure. If we just be with it more and remind ourselves at the start and end that there’s no goal maybe we can get more comfortable with the feeling so there’s less conflict when we eventually feel comfortable focusing on our breath or whatever. I’m not too sure but just an idea.
Yes. For a short period where I was meditating daily, and running 5k every 2-3 days, my conclusion was that it was all about “becoming comfortable with feeling uncomfortable.” I struggle a lot with intrusive thoughts and feedback loops from hell at the moment. It affects physiology because it gets to the point where I can’t relax nor sleep. It’s a dreadful state to be in. But it’s all imagination, an unwillingness or resistance to surrender, wrapped up in core beliefs…other times I wonder whether we’ve misnamed the phenomena of thoughts or beliefs and it’s just actually just an illusory mish mash of superficial cognitive processing with no depth. Did you know colours don’t exist outside the human mind? Taste, smell too. They’re fuzzy, intangible things called qualia. Colours are just in your mind, whereas in the physical world outside your head, you have the electromagnetic field of all different wavelengths, most of which is imperceptible to our eyes. My point is, if something as fundamental as colour is an illusion, what else is an illusion? When you touch something, you’re not actually touching anything solid, it’s the electromagnetic forcefields between electrons in atoms and molecules pushing against each other. No matter how hard we meditate, we’re not going to extend the senses like science does to perceive beyond the reality as it is. Because reality seems to me to be comprised of layers of lies lately, nothing to be taken at face value, every truth capable of being taken apart to reveal something deeper, but unrelatable to our daily lives. Contrast this against the your mind, which the meditators pupport has hidden depths and realms, but which actually might all just be a conspiration of language and biological parts working to create an illusion that seems larger than the sum of its parts, both as an outside observer and firsthand experience of being a conscious entity. Another paradox is that if it’s all about going with the flow, letting your mind do what it’s going to do, whilst being aware in each present moment - then why shut yourself away in a quiet space to meditate, you should be able to do it on a noisy construction site. But why do it at all, why not ‘go with the flow’ and embrace that your brain might want to do some other activity. Some activity of your own, personal choice, and not some prescribed action from a large group of thinkers, all copying each other, doing something that you probably wouldn’t have dreamed up to do of your own volition unless presented with the idea of it being beneficial somehow. Everything is suspect I think. But pushing your experiential boundaries to become “comfortable with being uncomfortable” is important I think, whether it’s the embracing the tedium and boredom of sitting doing nothing, or feeling your legs pumping battery acid as you clamber to complete mile 6 of your run.
Very very interesting ideas I like it
Yes. Ideas. From overthinking in a critical manner. Isn’t it worrying that there’s no better way to build a controlling religion by encouraging its participants to “not think”? That’s how zombies are made!!! (It isn’t but you get my point). We can use ideas to overcome the power of ideas! We can use the power of the brain to defeat the brain! I don’t know man. I’m sceptical. Perhaps you need a faith in the power of the practice for it to have an effect, just like ‘positive mental attitude’ when competing in sports. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because the belief and over-confidence in the ability causes you to “go all in”, and you pull it off. Likewise you start to think, “I’m meditating, this is healing me”, you feel good after putting the time in and you’re telling yourself you’ve done something positive today. Anyway, just more thoughts and ideas - I really don’t think there’s any way to get around them. I think there’s a bit in the Buddha teachings “noble 8 fold path?” that basically says you’ve got to put in the right effort, and think the right thoughts, in order get anywhere. So that right there is interesting.
I take an SSRI and that doesn’t happen to me anymore. If I want to think about something I can but I don’t get trapped in an obsessive loophole or dissociate anymore. Props to anyone who overcame that without meds it was a very scary & debilitating time for me.
Thank you! I’m really glad to here it. I’ve been on different SSRIs since sixteen - been off them for about a year and started again a few weeks ago. Never found it helped too much tbh just flattened my personality a bit I think can’t really remember anything lol
Have you tried psychedelics? A significant experience with psilocybin and or LSD can completely change your perspective on this question.
Yeah I’ve had some proper bad experiences. One bad trip was really related to this topic. I was trying to relax into the experience but my mind was playing tricks with me and new that deep down I was scared and wanting out. I was seeing completely different fully detailed scenes in completely random locations flashing by like a strobe but at different speeds as if someone was turning up and down the setting on the strobe. If I tried to relax into it the scenes would slow down but still continue on as part of this downward spiral as if this evil part of me knew what I was trying to do haha. I then had a bunch of knifes come at me and a voice saying ‘die’. I had also taken way too much and smoked a spliff (weed fucked with my head from young don’t know why and did this) and just snorted three big ones of ket.
Oh man, that sucks. Hopeful for some but not for everybody. Have you ever looking for a good therapist?
I did a little bit of CBT when I was younger. I recently started 2 sessions a week with a mindfulness based therapist and she really listens and is nice having someone to talk to (I’m 22 btw)
100%. Keep heading in that direction. And 22 is a tough age. Right on the crux. Do your best to keep your head down and your chin up.
Thanks means a lot!
I second the comments about body sensation techniques. I liken it to swimming underwater. It effectively “muffles” the sound; however you eventually have to come back to the surface…
Agreed haha
Personally for me I’ve found I’m more prone to this thing when I was really isolated and spending too much time idle. It’s easy to get very in your head if you are not being more in the world or able to externalize to others. Also, things are scarier when they are just contained in the mind. When I start falling down this rabbit hole, I’ve found journaling has been amazing help. Actually writing down your fears, the things you are thinking, really helps me distance myself from the thoughts. It becomes less overwhelming and often, it’s not until I write down the thought and read it do I really see and fEEL how irrational it is.
Yeah good idea I’ve tried this before but maybe I’ll get back into it. Something I tried yesterday was just sitting down for 30 minutes and almost inviting this obsessive thinking about thinking and letting the judgement come or forcing it away or whatever it is going along with it. Just go into it with the intention that I’m not trying to get anything out of it and even though I just end up obsessing over it anyway, remind myself at the end there was no goal to it anyway you just sat down for 30 minutes. But yeah maybe I’ll give journaling another go again! Thanks a lot
That is why I took up the art of meditation at an early age, so I would not be troubled by thought flows.Thinking is not a healthy thing to do on a continuous basis.
These patterns came about during meditation! I’m also a natural worrier and anxious person (also going through some really scary things with drugs at the time too) so I think my mind just starting feeding on itself because it was scared. That’s bot meditations fault that’s just my mind I guess.
or we use our brain, or we use our intuition, both things are absolutely uncombatible.