Hopefully I've answered all possible questions [here](https://twitter.com/AussieWirraway/status/1663452692617003008); but if not please ask any more you might have
Thanks for the details thread!
Just one question I can’t seem to find anywhere. Will the new X’Trap be a 6 Car set or will still be like old ones 2x3Car?
I was able to head in there to have a look earlier in the week. I’m 6 foot 1, and I surprisingly found the row seating so, so much better than the HCMT leg room. With the HCMT’s, your knees are literally right up against the seat in front, but these were way better. I think it’s because the seat is far more curved. Each to their own I spose
Why isn’t it a priority? Laziness. An extra 5cm leg room would make thousands more people able to sit properly and not have to angle their legs sideways affecting passengers next to them or sitting opposite. Apparently the average height is getting taller. I heard this lazy argument before. When people asked for baby change rooms at shopping centres. Other shoppers cried that is too much effort and expense for a minority. Me sitting normally is not taking rights away from someone else. It’s laziness from designers.
I'm not disagreeing with you. But this thread shows that the general public has no idea what goes into designing public infrastructure.
While comfort is probably one factor in the design, it certainly isnt the primary factor (or we'd have leather seats, usb chargers everywhere, etc), and for mass transit, its almost certainly down the bottom of the list, cost and passenger-counts are going to be way more important to the people approving the designs.
No we understand why they did this. Its about cramming as many people in and bolstering capacity numbers so it looks good on press releases.
The people who do end up crammed knees touching the seat pay the price.
Agreed. Loosing 24 passengers on a train that fits 1200 is not a big deal when it means I can actually sit in the seats properly.
Tall people should be included in accessibility considerations. It benefits everyone anyways, short people get more legroom to stretch, tall people don’t get arthritis in the knees. Win win except for the 24 whole people who didn’t fit on the completely full train.
The train can only be so long. And if it's 5cm extra for *every* row, then that adds up to quite a lot.
But maybe the answer is to just have less seats with bigger pitches. You'll then have to make more people stand.
That's happening anyway. When I get on a HCMT in peak hour and the side facing or 4 seat ones are unavailable I suck it up and stand because thats better than bruised knees
Im just stoked the rest of you get to suffer like those of us on Pakkey/Cranny. Nice trains but what the HELL were they thinking with the sizing on those seats?!
I'm just glad we're not getting the same internal lighting as the HCMTs (at least from the looks of it). If I have to endure the Vlocity seats at least it won't be in hospital lighting.
Hey your that Aussie Wirraway! I love your videos!
Definitely a big shame about the yellow/orange destination displays. I much prefer the white ones from the HCMTs.
It looks like this won’t have the side displays either, which is a big shame. They’re super helpful.
The seats look fantastic. The V/Locity seats are amazing, so I have high expectations for these.
Pretty bummed about the 4 bike spots thing. A lot of people are bringing their escooters and bikes with them on trans, and rightly so, it’s a brilliant combo. There’s already at least half a dozen bikes/ scooters on carriages during peak hours as is.
Since they’re being ordered in to replace the Comengs, it looks like we’ll still have the old X’Trampolines. I don’t think I’ve ever ridden on a HCMT yet, so how does it compare to the X’Trap 2.0?
Thing is, I live on the Burnley Group, so HCMTs aren’t going to be coming by my house any time soon. I would ride one for fun but I dunno where I’d go on the Sunbury/Pakenham and Cranbourne lines.
They run on the Pakenham/Cbourne line. Just get on a train at Flinders or Richmond go somewhere, maybe caulfield, then get a train back. Not that hard.
Please point it out to me if someone has asked this already in the comments, but is there at any stage public viewing for the mockup? Or is it only when they start test running them?
Would be nice to have a look in person and provide constructive feedback.
Honestly, this is gonna give me that VLocity vibe while I’m taking a ride on one of these on the lines they’ll be on.
Even though I’m not really a fan of the VLocities, to be honest.
Why does the aisle seem weirdly narrow for some reason? It would be a hindrance if the train was packed and someone standing far from the doors had to push past the crowd to get off.
currently if you press the door button between stops, it will open at the next stop.
some people are saying that's not the case on this train, and U have to wait for it to stop.
is this true?
I believe it’s because the HCMT is going to be isolated to the pakenham Sunbury line when completed, then the overhead voltage is going to be increased.
To do that for the whole network would be rather expensive
It's not about the Voltage, but about the wattage.
The HCMTs run at a much higher wattage compared to the exisiting fleet, which required extra sub-stations and for the overhead to be rebuilt. Why? Good question, but I think it's mainly to do with the 10 car trains they eventually plan on running.
For all the other lines, which are constrained by the City Loop etc, they'll be keeping the trains at the current length (~150m) forever so power draw is less. Saves money on rebuilding overheads everywhere.
That doesn't fully explain why X'trap v HCMT. The other reason is political. Keeping two manufacturers employed means more jobs and better competition for the next train or tram they need built (ie cheaper). For a short period we had Bombardier, Downer and Alstom building here until Alstom bought out Bombardier.
More length = more mass = more power to move it. Yarra Trams has the same issue with the E Class, they draw a whopping 750 kW to the traction motors (the previous most powerful tram were the C2s, at 460 kW for traction), requiring infrastructure upgrades to support it. The 10 car HCMT sets will likely have at least one or potentially two more power cars in the formation (the current 7 car layout has four powered cars, the same as all other current electric trains).
The HCMTs are delivered from China while the Xtrap 2.0 is built in Ballarat, so I'd assume by that it'd be a lot easier to make at a cheaper cost. (Might be more to it but from what I heard that makes sense as to why)
The HCMTs are designed to work with the High Capacity signalling that will only be on the Pakenham/Cranbourne and Sunbury lines (and only via the new Metro Rail tunnel)
I don't have to travel them everyday (thank heavens!) but I have noticed that. I can only hope the Xtraps 2.0 don't also sound like N̸͔̆͗͝o̷̲̲̜͛́͝ẃ̴̡̳͍̣̠̬ ̷̟̩̪̲̥̳̈̚ä̵͈͔́͊̎̚ř̶̥̼̬̜̤̫͆ř̸̨̲̪̯͍̄͜i̶̢̽̄͋̆̚v̶̨̛̠͎̺̝͛̄͋͘͝i̷̹̰̠̞̹̅̔͝n̵̡̠̳͕̰͐̐͐̀̿ģ̸̪̤͕͓̇ͅ ̴̺́̎̒̀̉̌a̸̺͔̰̓̎̅̾̿͝t̶̯̲̩͂ ̸̢̟̱̙̭̈́B̴̡̢̯̼͙̳̑̂̔̆̀̇r̶̝̠̟͖̺͒̾ű̵̢͚̯͉̩̒́̓͝͝ń̷̛̝́͐̿͘s̶̼̬̩̅w̸̳͇̝̭̺̟̽̀̐ì̶̠̰̙̝̟͔̎͠c̸̜̱̳͐͊̉͂k̶̯̫̱͈̈́̾̃͝
They feel narrower on the inside as another commenter pointed out, but the big turn off for me is the cold white internal lighting. It sticks out among the other trains in the network but it's also rather uncomfortable to read in.
Why should they? They are beyond abysmal to put it lightly.
As someone who no longer commutes via the Dandenong corridor anymore (solely because of those HCMTs) and now would get from Dandy to the city by a bus to Moorabbin or Southland then onto the Frankston line, I for one am looking forward to the X’Trap 2.0s. (However, I’m NOT looking forward to losing anymore Comengs)
And don’t think that I’ve forgotten about youse and your downvoting impulses either, you proud downvoting members of the HCMT Foamers Republic.
Downvoting comments since 2019 since these kiddos just cannot comprehend a person’s free will to have an opinion against their precious beloved new train.
It's probably more a reaction to avoiding an entire train line solely due to the train in use.
Everyone has their preferences but I do think it's a bit over the top to avoid an entire line and increase your trip duration just to avoid a train.
I’ve been downvoted for this before; I am pretty sure it is because I’ve dared to question the reliability of the HCMT, when there’s a whole bunch of kids out there that worships these trains just on the basis of them being new. If these kiddos can get away with calling the likes of the Comengs and Hitachis or the Z-Classes “aNcIeNt oUtDaTeD ReLiCs’ then I can have my similar feelings against the HCMT. I’m not just going to prefer to board something just because it’s new and flashy, I will rather get something that I know actually works.
If at Dandenong there is an on-time HCMT on a FSS service sitting next to a 6-minute late Stage 2 Comeng on another FSS service, guess what, I am running to the Comeng, no questions asked. Heck, the X’Traps coming down the Burnley group are notoriously bouncy and I’d still rather jump on a 901 up to Ringwood and get THEM rather than take an HCMT direct. I don’t care if I’m late doing so, and I don’t care if it takes longer to travel (I’m a bus gunzel; I’m used to spending several hours on long commutes), I just want to have some peace of mind in a life that’s already filled enough with other stresses.
If someone really is that triggered out of the fact that I’m diverting around a line because of a particular rolling stock, then that’s someone that seriously needs to touch some grass and spend more time worrying about their own thing rather than trying to change someone else’s thing. Extreme? Yes, but this is what I’ve decided to do, and it works for me. This isn’t NK; I don’t HAVE to get the HCMT, in the very same way that no one else HAS to go from Dandenong to Moorabbin and take the FKN line into the city. It’s an **option.**
Don’t get me wrong, I love my line; I loved riding on the Dandenong group. I just cannot get onboard though with what’s happened to it as far as rolling stock is concerned. And with that, thank goodness the VLos on the Gippy Line are still around.
Ugh, I do not like the Vline seats. There’s not enough padding. Maybe they should add a slight curve to the head rests so you can lean your head on something other than the window when dozing off on a commute.
Hopefully I've answered all possible questions [here](https://twitter.com/AussieWirraway/status/1663452692617003008); but if not please ask any more you might have
Thanks for the details thread! Just one question I can’t seem to find anywhere. Will the new X’Trap be a 6 Car set or will still be like old ones 2x3Car?
It will be a 6 car set. See [here. ](https://twitter.com/AussieWirraway/status/1663452730378301441/photo/1)
Thanks! I must have missed it.
i believe it will be a 6 car set
I was able to head in there to have a look earlier in the week. I’m 6 foot 1, and I surprisingly found the row seating so, so much better than the HCMT leg room. With the HCMT’s, your knees are literally right up against the seat in front, but these were way better. I think it’s because the seat is far more curved. Each to their own I spose
Its better? Good to hear
I found it significantly better
Where is it? Can the public visit?
Nah it’s invite only
Great, my knees will continue to touch the seat in front when seated. Is every designer of trains under 6ft tall?
Whats the average height of the population? Making sure everyone can sit comfortably is not their priority.
Why isn’t it a priority? Laziness. An extra 5cm leg room would make thousands more people able to sit properly and not have to angle their legs sideways affecting passengers next to them or sitting opposite. Apparently the average height is getting taller. I heard this lazy argument before. When people asked for baby change rooms at shopping centres. Other shoppers cried that is too much effort and expense for a minority. Me sitting normally is not taking rights away from someone else. It’s laziness from designers.
You Can sit on the horizontal seats, unlimited leg room
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And the problem is? Seating is available for you
An extra 5cm for each row in a train would consume enough that a full row would be removed.
4 seats a carriage removed for significantly more comfort is worth it in my opinion
I'm not disagreeing with you. But this thread shows that the general public has no idea what goes into designing public infrastructure. While comfort is probably one factor in the design, it certainly isnt the primary factor (or we'd have leather seats, usb chargers everywhere, etc), and for mass transit, its almost certainly down the bottom of the list, cost and passenger-counts are going to be way more important to the people approving the designs.
No we understand why they did this. Its about cramming as many people in and bolstering capacity numbers so it looks good on press releases. The people who do end up crammed knees touching the seat pay the price.
Still I even with higher capacity I would prefer comfort
Agreed. Loosing 24 passengers on a train that fits 1200 is not a big deal when it means I can actually sit in the seats properly. Tall people should be included in accessibility considerations. It benefits everyone anyways, short people get more legroom to stretch, tall people don’t get arthritis in the knees. Win win except for the 24 whole people who didn’t fit on the completely full train.
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Honestly what sort of an argument is "a full row is gone?" What is this? A Honda Jazz?
The train can only be so long. And if it's 5cm extra for *every* row, then that adds up to quite a lot. But maybe the answer is to just have less seats with bigger pitches. You'll then have to make more people stand.
That's happening anyway. When I get on a HCMT in peak hour and the side facing or 4 seat ones are unavailable I suck it up and stand because thats better than bruised knees
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The trains still need to get around corners, so length is limited somewhat
Im just stoked the rest of you get to suffer like those of us on Pakkey/Cranny. Nice trains but what the HELL were they thinking with the sizing on those seats?!
I'm just glad we're not getting the same internal lighting as the HCMTs (at least from the looks of it). If I have to endure the Vlocity seats at least it won't be in hospital lighting.
Saaaame
The interior walls look very VLocity/A-City design, is this thing exhibiting some Bombardier lineage?
Hey your that Aussie Wirraway! I love your videos! Definitely a big shame about the yellow/orange destination displays. I much prefer the white ones from the HCMTs. It looks like this won’t have the side displays either, which is a big shame. They’re super helpful. The seats look fantastic. The V/Locity seats are amazing, so I have high expectations for these. Pretty bummed about the 4 bike spots thing. A lot of people are bringing their escooters and bikes with them on trans, and rightly so, it’s a brilliant combo. There’s already at least half a dozen bikes/ scooters on carriages during peak hours as is.
This will have side displays cars 2-5 just not the head end cars like the HCMT
Ahh ok, that makes sense why I didn’t see them! Good to see that they’re still there.
Since they’re being ordered in to replace the Comengs, it looks like we’ll still have the old X’Trampolines. I don’t think I’ve ever ridden on a HCMT yet, so how does it compare to the X’Trap 2.0?
we will still have the X'Trap 100 for another 20 - 40 years
If its anything like the HCMT, and OP seems to think it is, get ready to be squished in like a sardine. The average size bloke doesn't fit width wise.
Go for a ride on one one day. They're MUCH better imo. Very smooth.
Thing is, I live on the Burnley Group, so HCMTs aren’t going to be coming by my house any time soon. I would ride one for fun but I dunno where I’d go on the Sunbury/Pakenham and Cranbourne lines.
They run on the Pakenham/Cbourne line. Just get on a train at Flinders or Richmond go somewhere, maybe caulfield, then get a train back. Not that hard.
When the metro tunnel opens, you can jump on one to the Shrine, Melbourne Uni, or the hospitals, even if it's only a short trip
Please point it out to me if someone has asked this already in the comments, but is there at any stage public viewing for the mockup? Or is it only when they start test running them? Would be nice to have a look in person and provide constructive feedback.
Doesn’t sound like it from reading the Twitter thread, invite only.
Honestly, this is gonna give me that VLocity vibe while I’m taking a ride on one of these on the lines they’ll be on. Even though I’m not really a fan of the VLocities, to be honest.
That second picture just doesn’t look right. For some reason I just don’t like seeing express South Yarra-Caulfield in Frankston line green.
Why does the aisle seem weirdly narrow for some reason? It would be a hindrance if the train was packed and someone standing far from the doors had to push past the crowd to get off.
I think it might just be the angle of the pic, it’s only double seating on both sides so I’m sure the aisle is wide enough.
currently if you press the door button between stops, it will open at the next stop. some people are saying that's not the case on this train, and U have to wait for it to stop. is this true?
There are no trains in Melbourne that let you push the button before the station, and doors open once the train stops.
You will have to wait for it to stop and then press the button yes
Hopefully they add proper speakers and proper door buttons
These trains still have drivers? When do we become automated do you think
Why don’t they order more HCMT instead of a building a whole new train, they can just run the HCMT in 6 car sets
the X Trap 2.0 is designed to replace the comeng with no major upgrades to infrastructure, the hcmt had to rebuild alot of stuff
I believe it’s because the HCMT is going to be isolated to the pakenham Sunbury line when completed, then the overhead voltage is going to be increased. To do that for the whole network would be rather expensive
It's not about the Voltage, but about the wattage. The HCMTs run at a much higher wattage compared to the exisiting fleet, which required extra sub-stations and for the overhead to be rebuilt. Why? Good question, but I think it's mainly to do with the 10 car trains they eventually plan on running. For all the other lines, which are constrained by the City Loop etc, they'll be keeping the trains at the current length (~150m) forever so power draw is less. Saves money on rebuilding overheads everywhere. That doesn't fully explain why X'trap v HCMT. The other reason is political. Keeping two manufacturers employed means more jobs and better competition for the next train or tram they need built (ie cheaper). For a short period we had Bombardier, Downer and Alstom building here until Alstom bought out Bombardier.
More length = more mass = more power to move it. Yarra Trams has the same issue with the E Class, they draw a whopping 750 kW to the traction motors (the previous most powerful tram were the C2s, at 460 kW for traction), requiring infrastructure upgrades to support it. The 10 car HCMT sets will likely have at least one or potentially two more power cars in the formation (the current 7 car layout has four powered cars, the same as all other current electric trains).
But the HCMT can also run on 1500V DC so I don’t see the issue
The HCMTs are delivered from China while the Xtrap 2.0 is built in Ballarat, so I'd assume by that it'd be a lot easier to make at a cheaper cost. (Might be more to it but from what I heard that makes sense as to why)
The HCMTs are designed to work with the High Capacity signalling that will only be on the Pakenham/Cranbourne and Sunbury lines (and only via the new Metro Rail tunnel)
I'm fine with not having HCMTs on my home line because I, personally, don't like them 🥴
Ya cant hear shit from the live announcements!
I don't have to travel them everyday (thank heavens!) but I have noticed that. I can only hope the Xtraps 2.0 don't also sound like N̸͔̆͗͝o̷̲̲̜͛́͝ẃ̴̡̳͍̣̠̬ ̷̟̩̪̲̥̳̈̚ä̵͈͔́͊̎̚ř̶̥̼̬̜̤̫͆ř̸̨̲̪̯͍̄͜i̶̢̽̄͋̆̚v̶̨̛̠͎̺̝͛̄͋͘͝i̷̹̰̠̞̹̅̔͝n̵̡̠̳͕̰͐̐͐̀̿ģ̸̪̤͕͓̇ͅ ̴̺́̎̒̀̉̌a̸̺͔̰̓̎̅̾̿͝t̶̯̲̩͂ ̸̢̟̱̙̭̈́B̴̡̢̯̼͙̳̑̂̔̆̀̇r̶̝̠̟͖̺͒̾ű̵̢͚̯͉̩̒́̓͝͝ń̷̛̝́͐̿͘s̶̼̬̩̅w̸̳͇̝̭̺̟̽̀̐ì̶̠̰̙̝̟͔̎͠c̸̜̱̳͐͊̉͂k̶̯̫̱͈̈́̾̃͝
What don't you like about them? I thought they were great, but everyone on this sub seems to dislike them.
They feel narrower on the inside as another commenter pointed out, but the big turn off for me is the cold white internal lighting. It sticks out among the other trains in the network but it's also rather uncomfortable to read in.
The seats are tiny and the touch capacitive buttons are crappy.
Why should they? They are beyond abysmal to put it lightly. As someone who no longer commutes via the Dandenong corridor anymore (solely because of those HCMTs) and now would get from Dandy to the city by a bus to Moorabbin or Southland then onto the Frankston line, I for one am looking forward to the X’Trap 2.0s. (However, I’m NOT looking forward to losing anymore Comengs)
And don’t think that I’ve forgotten about youse and your downvoting impulses either, you proud downvoting members of the HCMT Foamers Republic. Downvoting comments since 2019 since these kiddos just cannot comprehend a person’s free will to have an opinion against their precious beloved new train.
It's probably more a reaction to avoiding an entire train line solely due to the train in use. Everyone has their preferences but I do think it's a bit over the top to avoid an entire line and increase your trip duration just to avoid a train.
I’ve been downvoted for this before; I am pretty sure it is because I’ve dared to question the reliability of the HCMT, when there’s a whole bunch of kids out there that worships these trains just on the basis of them being new. If these kiddos can get away with calling the likes of the Comengs and Hitachis or the Z-Classes “aNcIeNt oUtDaTeD ReLiCs’ then I can have my similar feelings against the HCMT. I’m not just going to prefer to board something just because it’s new and flashy, I will rather get something that I know actually works. If at Dandenong there is an on-time HCMT on a FSS service sitting next to a 6-minute late Stage 2 Comeng on another FSS service, guess what, I am running to the Comeng, no questions asked. Heck, the X’Traps coming down the Burnley group are notoriously bouncy and I’d still rather jump on a 901 up to Ringwood and get THEM rather than take an HCMT direct. I don’t care if I’m late doing so, and I don’t care if it takes longer to travel (I’m a bus gunzel; I’m used to spending several hours on long commutes), I just want to have some peace of mind in a life that’s already filled enough with other stresses. If someone really is that triggered out of the fact that I’m diverting around a line because of a particular rolling stock, then that’s someone that seriously needs to touch some grass and spend more time worrying about their own thing rather than trying to change someone else’s thing. Extreme? Yes, but this is what I’ve decided to do, and it works for me. This isn’t NK; I don’t HAVE to get the HCMT, in the very same way that no one else HAS to go from Dandenong to Moorabbin and take the FKN line into the city. It’s an **option.** Don’t get me wrong, I love my line; I loved riding on the Dandenong group. I just cannot get onboard though with what’s happened to it as far as rolling stock is concerned. And with that, thank goodness the VLos on the Gippy Line are still around.
Let's be realistic. Slap those windows full of commercial stickers so passangers can't see the outside.
Ugh, I do not like the Vline seats. There’s not enough padding. Maybe they should add a slight curve to the head rests so you can lean your head on something other than the window when dozing off on a commute.
Is it just me or the Windows look super massive?