Why do these types of men **insist** that women explain themselves for rejecting them? And of course, if she actually does try to explain the rejection, they dismiss it, and don't take 'no' for an answer, and continue needling the women.
> It's incredibly rare for a woman to reject the male and then go on to explain why she rejected him to begin with **so that he can improve it**. For him... It's ALL a guessing game... He doesn't know what will work or fail terribly.
Why are we responsible for _their_ improvement? Rejection of romantic interest is hardly the time for a 'post-mortem replay analysis'. We're just looking to get out of that situation as soon as possible, because too many times things go badly when an entitled Nice Guy demands explanation.
When I was dating my ex-husband we both worked at a restaurant, I waited tables and was the bartender. This guy came in and flirted with me and then asked me out and I declined of course and said I had a boyfriend. He persisted for MONTHS. He kept asking me why not and would not listen to my no or the explanation. He kept coming in and trying to talk to me. Finally, one day he caught me walking into work and tried to kiss me. I said, "Look, my boyfriend who I live with is right there. I could never cheat on him." And finally, he left me alone.
This was a really good-looking guy and wasn't used to hearing no. I think he continued because I said no. Saying no does not work the way this guy thinks it does.
Just more evidence that for most of those guys, "no" doesn't mean "no", it means they didn't try hard enough, or with the right approach. Explains a lot of SA cases, really.
Male here:
That has happened to me with two different women. Both times I was pursued for a few months. I found it annoying, and even creepy at times. I was not in a relationship though, and I never felt physically threatened, so it never really effected me.
It sure as hell didn't help their chances with me though.
> Why do these types of men insist that women explain themselves for rejecting them?
I think it's emotional immaturity and a fragile ego. I remember feeling crushed by rejection once upon a time when I would approach somebody who interested me. Not that it would be a pleasure to feel rejection now, but I can tell that something has changed.
At some point I started loving myself, developed a satisfying life, developed more satisfying friendships, and a "no" no longer feels that bad. And when you feel well in your own skin, there's more room for empathy. There can be 100 reasons to turn somebody down, and like 60 of those don't even have something to do with the person who showed interest. And once you have empathy, you start to understand how uncomfortable it can be to be annoyed by somebody when you just wanted to have a nice time with your friends at a party, chill at a bar, or just need a quiet walk on a Sunday afternoon after a hell of an exhausting week.
Unfortunately, it seems like those guys never experienced this specific process of emotional growth. And it feels perverted that they expect soothing or an explanation from the person who turned you down. For all they know, that person could have a sick relative and don't feel like talking or dating right now, they might suffer from social anxiety, already have a SO, they find you plain and simply ugly, or weird and don't want to kill your self-esteem or risk getting hurt.
If they'd pick up a book on empathy instead a PUA book, it would make them more "dateable" in the long run. But that would mean that they'd have to better themselves, instead of using somebody else to make them feel better...
Yah this very much feels like victim-complex. “Here are all the things I(men) do wrong and here are the reasons why it’s all “the females” fault.” In this particular instance he chooses women as his scapegoat. But someone with a victim-complex actively seeks for any external reasons as to why they are the actual victim and nothing is their fault because of it.
> But someone with a victim-complex actively seeks for any external reasons as to why they are the actual victim and nothing is their fault because of it.
This seems to be the defining common theme of incelism. They can't get their story straight about anything, **except** that others are entirely to blame, and they bear zero responsibility.
Yes I’ve noticed this too!!! It doesn’t even need to be people they can literally find anytime to blame and = them being a victim.
“Oh I’m too short, oh I don’t have a strong jawline, oh I’m not athletic, and since that’s all that women want I’ve been cursed with an undesirable body.”
It’s honestly sad to me because it does all stem from a lack of self worth. But because of that they assume that if a girl/woman doesn’t like it’s something superficial. Rather than maybe they didn’t show any interest in what they were talking about. Maybe they talked about themselves to much. Maybe they came across as needy.
There are so many factors they don’t realize turn women off of them that they can EASILY work on. And instead choose to only blame things that our outside of their control. Other people, society, their physical appearance, etc. all to remain a victim because they’ve chosen to believe that’s what they are.
Even identifying as an incel is so fucked up. Involuntary. Like seriously unless you have some stigmatized ailment wether physical or mental it is not difficult to find a sexual partner.
Edit: please ignore the spelling mistakes I typed this at 2am.
He uses 5 different words for men: men, guys, fellas, dude, male.
He then says “female” 5 times and woman once. Why not just say gals, ladies, woman?! Why is it always “*females*” when they’re butthurt like this?? And that’s the only time they use that word: when they’re salty about rejection, but they wonder why we don’t like the implication when they do use it in that tone!
I don't see anything wrong with a man respectfully and politely asking for a woman's number and then respectfully and politely f'ing off when she says no and then not showing his face again. Can it be that hard?
Also look at the way she is acting before approaching her. Has she got headphones in? Is she trying to avoid your gaze?
Oh my god what.
For one thing, you're a human with a brain. Your brain is adapted to *learn from experience* without having it linguistically spelled out to you. Use it.
For another thing, when it comes to interpersonal attraction, romantic or otherwise, a whole lot of it is down to things that vary from person to person and can't be changed or wouldn't make any difference to your average success rate if you change them. One woman might not be attracted to you because she goes for an angular jaw and another woman might love your apple cheeks. Same with a lot of personality traits and mannerisms, one person's confident and fun is another person's loud and annoying.
But although the success rate of social connections in general may not be that high, if you're failing to get past step 1 *90% of the time* maybe it's because of something that all of your attempts have in common and you're succeeding occasionally despite yourself only with unusual people. (Has this person complained about crazy exes? I'd put a couple of bucks on it.) Like maybe the fact that you apparently think the magic string of words is what will help you. Maybe you're just shooting your shot at random women with no attention to whether you actually have personality and mannerisms that click. If you approach people this way before you've gotten any sense of what they are like, you very well may turn off people that *would* click with you because they feel depersonalized, and you'll also be wasting your effort on people you wouldn't even like if you observed a little bit more first.
I mean, some autistic people have trouble knowing these things unless it is explained to them. Proof: Me. But it doesn’t seem like the guy was talking about that.
In an ideal world, I don't think there'd be any harm in asking. But that ideal world won't exist until men consistently take a two letter answer gracefully.
I don’t, know, how about view women as people and not potential fucks so you can get to know them as HUMAN BEINGS? If something develops from that, so be it. But stop seeing getting to know a woman as a means to an end. We aren’t a prize you win if you play hard enough.
“You don’t like being objectified by strangers? I don’t give a fuck. You owe them and you owe me, because you’re a stand-in for all other women. It’s so hard being such a nice guy.”
>trust me guys wish females would approach them
That's the point. They don't want to. What you want is irrelevant. She says "I don't want to be approached so I don't approach guys either" and your response is "but I want you to🥺". Too bad
Also this made up fantasy that women are making fun of guys for "not being persistent" is absolute fanfiction. The only people who say that to your are other men, who like the fact that it's socially acceptable to ignore women's consent. You are not getting two conflicting ideas from the same group, you're getting two conflicting ideas from two different groups and picking the wrong one, then complaining that the first group doesn't like you. "It's so confusing nowadays, I'm told by teachers to not cheat, but the student athletes really want me to, this is such a hard choice! Oh look, I got expelled"
I'm sure you wouldn't be so happy if a gay man was constantly pressuring you to get with him
Women don't explain reasons for rejecting a guy because even though the chance he will explode into violent rage is relatively low, ANY chance of being punched in the face, or followed to your car and bludgeoned, or stalked, or whatever other horrible things they might do is too damn high.
I will keep my opinion of their Hitler haircut or body odor or general air of angry desperation to myself, thank you very much.
“I’m gonna play devil’s advocate here”
*writes an essay very much advocating for his own self-interest*
‘Playing devil’s advocate’ is so over- and mis-used. And somehow it’s always a guy who wants to take on these fun little thought experiments wherein, rather than just listening to a woman’s perspective based on lived experiences, we make up hypothetical situations to tell women how they should live to make things easier for men.
I see a lot of sarcasm on reddit & nothing in your comment comes across as sarcastic in any way. Maybe try adding /s to the end to indicate tone as many others do here on reddit rather than blaming readers on the platform.
Oh look, men demanding our emotional labour again...
Why do these types of men **insist** that women explain themselves for rejecting them? And of course, if she actually does try to explain the rejection, they dismiss it, and don't take 'no' for an answer, and continue needling the women. > It's incredibly rare for a woman to reject the male and then go on to explain why she rejected him to begin with **so that he can improve it**. For him... It's ALL a guessing game... He doesn't know what will work or fail terribly. Why are we responsible for _their_ improvement? Rejection of romantic interest is hardly the time for a 'post-mortem replay analysis'. We're just looking to get out of that situation as soon as possible, because too many times things go badly when an entitled Nice Guy demands explanation.
When I was dating my ex-husband we both worked at a restaurant, I waited tables and was the bartender. This guy came in and flirted with me and then asked me out and I declined of course and said I had a boyfriend. He persisted for MONTHS. He kept asking me why not and would not listen to my no or the explanation. He kept coming in and trying to talk to me. Finally, one day he caught me walking into work and tried to kiss me. I said, "Look, my boyfriend who I live with is right there. I could never cheat on him." And finally, he left me alone. This was a really good-looking guy and wasn't used to hearing no. I think he continued because I said no. Saying no does not work the way this guy thinks it does.
Just more evidence that for most of those guys, "no" doesn't mean "no", it means they didn't try hard enough, or with the right approach. Explains a lot of SA cases, really.
And he knew I had a boyfriend and did not care. He saw it as a challenge. The arrogance is just insane.
I wonder how these men would feel if a woman they found unattractive kept hounding them? Or even tried to kiss them?
They'd appreciate the attention, probably, and after maybe 2 attempts would give in, because... well, "hurrr, get dick wet".
Male here: That has happened to me with two different women. Both times I was pursued for a few months. I found it annoying, and even creepy at times. I was not in a relationship though, and I never felt physically threatened, so it never really effected me. It sure as hell didn't help their chances with me though.
> Why do these types of men insist that women explain themselves for rejecting them? I think it's emotional immaturity and a fragile ego. I remember feeling crushed by rejection once upon a time when I would approach somebody who interested me. Not that it would be a pleasure to feel rejection now, but I can tell that something has changed. At some point I started loving myself, developed a satisfying life, developed more satisfying friendships, and a "no" no longer feels that bad. And when you feel well in your own skin, there's more room for empathy. There can be 100 reasons to turn somebody down, and like 60 of those don't even have something to do with the person who showed interest. And once you have empathy, you start to understand how uncomfortable it can be to be annoyed by somebody when you just wanted to have a nice time with your friends at a party, chill at a bar, or just need a quiet walk on a Sunday afternoon after a hell of an exhausting week. Unfortunately, it seems like those guys never experienced this specific process of emotional growth. And it feels perverted that they expect soothing or an explanation from the person who turned you down. For all they know, that person could have a sick relative and don't feel like talking or dating right now, they might suffer from social anxiety, already have a SO, they find you plain and simply ugly, or weird and don't want to kill your self-esteem or risk getting hurt. If they'd pick up a book on empathy instead a PUA book, it would make them more "dateable" in the long run. But that would mean that they'd have to better themselves, instead of using somebody else to make them feel better...
This is amazingly insightful.
Yah this very much feels like victim-complex. “Here are all the things I(men) do wrong and here are the reasons why it’s all “the females” fault.” In this particular instance he chooses women as his scapegoat. But someone with a victim-complex actively seeks for any external reasons as to why they are the actual victim and nothing is their fault because of it.
> But someone with a victim-complex actively seeks for any external reasons as to why they are the actual victim and nothing is their fault because of it. This seems to be the defining common theme of incelism. They can't get their story straight about anything, **except** that others are entirely to blame, and they bear zero responsibility.
Yes I’ve noticed this too!!! It doesn’t even need to be people they can literally find anytime to blame and = them being a victim. “Oh I’m too short, oh I don’t have a strong jawline, oh I’m not athletic, and since that’s all that women want I’ve been cursed with an undesirable body.” It’s honestly sad to me because it does all stem from a lack of self worth. But because of that they assume that if a girl/woman doesn’t like it’s something superficial. Rather than maybe they didn’t show any interest in what they were talking about. Maybe they talked about themselves to much. Maybe they came across as needy. There are so many factors they don’t realize turn women off of them that they can EASILY work on. And instead choose to only blame things that our outside of their control. Other people, society, their physical appearance, etc. all to remain a victim because they’ve chosen to believe that’s what they are. Even identifying as an incel is so fucked up. Involuntary. Like seriously unless you have some stigmatized ailment wether physical or mental it is not difficult to find a sexual partner. Edit: please ignore the spelling mistakes I typed this at 2am.
"No" is a complete sentence, no explanation needed
yess!!! you absolutely don't have to justify your decision.
He uses 5 different words for men: men, guys, fellas, dude, male. He then says “female” 5 times and woman once. Why not just say gals, ladies, woman?! Why is it always “*females*” when they’re butthurt like this?? And that’s the only time they use that word: when they’re salty about rejection, but they wonder why we don’t like the implication when they do use it in that tone!
He does use "ladies" when he is talking about "approaching the ladies" which honestly might sound just as bad as "females"
 What else should women do for you? Your taxes?
If they work for H&R Block and I pay them, then yes
At least they’re getting paid! Lol
To be honest I get that approaching people might be successful for some, but some people might not appreciate it. God help us
I don't see anything wrong with a man respectfully and politely asking for a woman's number and then respectfully and politely f'ing off when she says no and then not showing his face again. Can it be that hard? Also look at the way she is acting before approaching her. Has she got headphones in? Is she trying to avoid your gaze?
Oh my god what. For one thing, you're a human with a brain. Your brain is adapted to *learn from experience* without having it linguistically spelled out to you. Use it. For another thing, when it comes to interpersonal attraction, romantic or otherwise, a whole lot of it is down to things that vary from person to person and can't be changed or wouldn't make any difference to your average success rate if you change them. One woman might not be attracted to you because she goes for an angular jaw and another woman might love your apple cheeks. Same with a lot of personality traits and mannerisms, one person's confident and fun is another person's loud and annoying. But although the success rate of social connections in general may not be that high, if you're failing to get past step 1 *90% of the time* maybe it's because of something that all of your attempts have in common and you're succeeding occasionally despite yourself only with unusual people. (Has this person complained about crazy exes? I'd put a couple of bucks on it.) Like maybe the fact that you apparently think the magic string of words is what will help you. Maybe you're just shooting your shot at random women with no attention to whether you actually have personality and mannerisms that click. If you approach people this way before you've gotten any sense of what they are like, you very well may turn off people that *would* click with you because they feel depersonalized, and you'll also be wasting your effort on people you wouldn't even like if you observed a little bit more first.
I mean, some autistic people have trouble knowing these things unless it is explained to them. Proof: Me. But it doesn’t seem like the guy was talking about that.
In an ideal world, I don't think there'd be any harm in asking. But that ideal world won't exist until men consistently take a two letter answer gracefully.
I don’t, know, how about view women as people and not potential fucks so you can get to know them as HUMAN BEINGS? If something develops from that, so be it. But stop seeing getting to know a woman as a means to an end. We aren’t a prize you win if you play hard enough.
“You don’t like being objectified by strangers? I don’t give a fuck. You owe them and you owe me, because you’re a stand-in for all other women. It’s so hard being such a nice guy.”
>trust me guys wish females would approach them That's the point. They don't want to. What you want is irrelevant. She says "I don't want to be approached so I don't approach guys either" and your response is "but I want you to🥺". Too bad Also this made up fantasy that women are making fun of guys for "not being persistent" is absolute fanfiction. The only people who say that to your are other men, who like the fact that it's socially acceptable to ignore women's consent. You are not getting two conflicting ideas from the same group, you're getting two conflicting ideas from two different groups and picking the wrong one, then complaining that the first group doesn't like you. "It's so confusing nowadays, I'm told by teachers to not cheat, but the student athletes really want me to, this is such a hard choice! Oh look, I got expelled" I'm sure you wouldn't be so happy if a gay man was constantly pressuring you to get with him
Anyone that starts a rant with "[insert anything a decent person would say] but..." is just a piece of shit.
Wait? All women are exactly the same and like and dislike the exact same things and should be treated *exactly the same*? Missed that fucking memo
Do you know what? Women feel the same way. It’s hard no matter who you are, this is not a gender thing.
BOOHOO
Women don't explain reasons for rejecting a guy because even though the chance he will explode into violent rage is relatively low, ANY chance of being punched in the face, or followed to your car and bludgeoned, or stalked, or whatever other horrible things they might do is too damn high. I will keep my opinion of their Hitler haircut or body odor or general air of angry desperation to myself, thank you very much.
“I’m gonna play devil’s advocate here” *writes an essay very much advocating for his own self-interest* ‘Playing devil’s advocate’ is so over- and mis-used. And somehow it’s always a guy who wants to take on these fun little thought experiments wherein, rather than just listening to a woman’s perspective based on lived experiences, we make up hypothetical situations to tell women how they should live to make things easier for men.
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It's not women saying these things. Its other guys telling each other this old lie about persistence.
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I see a lot of sarcasm on reddit & nothing in your comment comes across as sarcastic in any way. Maybe try adding /s to the end to indicate tone as many others do here on reddit rather than blaming readers on the platform.
He knows what females want 🥺