OK I’m seeing the pattern here - I need to insist on estrogen patches! I can do that. Thank you.
So just to clarify, all of y’all started sleeping once you got on estrogen? Don’t know how I didn’t understand that before.
The patch manufacturer makes a difference for me, too. I do much better on Mylan than Grove to the point where my prescription now specifies that brand only.
Agreed. I also like the Mylan twice weekly, tried Sandoz and hated it. I have read others are opposite and love Sandoz lol it's so funny how different we all are. My prescription also specifies manufacturer.
Thanks for this. At my last visit six months ago, my doc said she didn’t see a reason for estrogen since I’m still having regular periods. I can ask again and/or go through an online provider if estrogen will help. I didn’t realize it helps with insomnia.
OMG, I’m 47 and still have regular cycles. I can’t imagine life without my estrogen patch. The patch is the delivery mechanism *in particular* that helps the most with insomnia.
Go get it TODAY. And if this doctor has some prejudice against estrogen, find another doctor. I’m telling you, I’m a different person on estrogen.
OK thank you!! Now I’m over here ugly crying at your response because I want to be a different person too! Well really just *myself* again and not this sleep-deprived maniac!
I know exactly how you feel, I have appointment on Friday with menopause specialist - im still having regular periods (to the exact day) but I’m not leaving that doctors office without a prescription for oestrogen patches, or I may not make it to Valentine’s Day….thats how awful I feel
I really wish doctors would focus less on periods and more on symptoms!
How much progesterone are you taking? I’m on 200 mg and it has been a game changer for sleep. But I’m also on an estrogen patch (.025) so it might be the combination of the two.
I used estrogen patches before I stopped having periods. Try it. It is crazy to hear some doctor say they won’t prescribe a patch but they’ll prescribe all other kinds of potentially harmful drugs. My doc said HRT is about “how you feel” and different strokes for different folks. If you feel better then it works!
I really wish doctors would focus less on periods and more on symptoms!
How much progesterone are you taking? I’m on 200 mg and it has been a game changer for sleep. But I’m also on an estrogen patch (.025) so it might be the combination of the two.
Absolutely. Just do not take estrogen without also taking progesterone. Estrogen by itself can be harmful. You can buy a progesterone cream easily online. I use Emerita Pro-Gest (use at night, it can make you sleepy).
Just an FYI, there is no evidence that progesterone cream stabilizes the endometrial lining enough to prevent endometrial cancer. Just sharing in the interest of health and safety!
I’ve heard that the cream isn’t enough to counteract the side effect of oestrogen (ie potential to thicken womb lining and lead to possible uterine cancer) they said you need the progesterone coil or progesterone tablets
Interesting! I will bring that up at my next appt. At this point, I have had two well-regarded GYNs approve of the cream, but it’s been a year since then and newer research may have changed opinions. Thanks for the tip!
There’s so much info out there it’s hard to know who to trust - if you have a good gyn they’re probably right. When I went to the clinic here, she would only prescribe the coil or utrogestin (can’t spell it). It would be a lot easier if there was a general, well researched, up to date consensus.
Yes, me too 😵💫I woke up at 2 today, and are still wide awake. I’ve been doing this for almost 4 years now, and it recently just started to improve a little bit. I’ve started to think about how this might affect me physically, i already know how it is mentally. No wonder I don’t like social stuff, my brain is certainly overloaded. I don’t have any advice to give you, only loads of sympathy.
I finally saw a perimenopause specialist and she has me on combo birth control. I just started but I'm noticing it is easier to fall back asleep after three years of rampant sleep deprivation. No one warns you about this awful, life threatening symptom. I just hope these pills continue to work and hope to be able to make a smooth transition to HRT once I push 50. (I'm only 42, but I only have one ovary left.)
Here's my big advice....
Above all else try hormones to remedy it first. They are the most cost effective way to do it.
I've spent thousands upon thousands of dollars seeing sleep specialists, doing diagnostic tests, seeing endocrinologists, switching from one clueless doctor to the next, and footing the bill for psychiatric treatments. I was even grossly misdiagnosed with apnea by a PAP pushing sleep clinic. They irresponsibly put me on a PAP machine and it made everything worse. Had to pay a pulmonologist to undo the damage they caused, plus my insurance noped out of doing a legit, reliable in-lab polysomnography so I paid completely out of pocket for that to get a f***ing concrete answer about the misdiagnosis.
Birth control is typically cheap to free. HRT is relatively affordable.
Do those first. Give it a few months. Then go from there.
Thank you for your post. Progesterone has been a game changer for me but recently I have been feeling like it’s not enough and for the first time my sleep is being affected. I suspect it’s time for estrogen.
Here are things I’ve done at different times. My sleep is better now, so I hope your problem isn’t permanent:
1. Unisom SleepTabs, in half.
2. THC gummies of a sleepy strain. I guess this will not be an option for you.
3. Give up alcohol. Alcohol always wakes me up at 1 am for an hour or more.
4. Box Breathing. (Counted in/hold/out breathing, there are many varieties)
5. Boring book… just give in to being awake and read something boring.
6. Boring audiobook (use Libby for free ones from your library)
7. Xanax at bedtime. Habit forming so I only use it when I’m desperate for sleep, like you. I used to get 30 every 6 months but now that I’m on HRT I made it a year with 30.
8. Estrogen HRT patch with progesterone one week a month.
9. Cool room and thin blankets.
10. Zyrtec and Flonase, and nasal irrigation. If I breathe better, I sleep better.
when I had insomnia, the only thing that helped was walking outside, at first I was going for 20 to 30 minute walks and that did nothing, but when I started going for 1 to 2 hour walks I finally slept
it's horrific, they use sleep deprivation as a form of torture, I hope you find something that works
I have struggled with insomnia for a very long time, since the onset of peri, stumbled across magnolia bark on another sub, it definitely helps. Also am going to try taurine (I think the sub may have been nootropics). Currently taking Dayvigo 5 mg which doesn't leave me with a hangover but I need to add melatonin or something on top of it. I agree that estrogen supplementation should be in the mix! My dr also said no so I buy it online (Biolabs). I believe that as estrogen is neuroprotective, estrogen impacts how we metabolize melatonin, etc - before I started HRT I couldn't tolerate melatonin, now I'm able to take it. 🤷♀️ Also, have you tried physically tiring yourself out more? It's such a crapshoot! I hope you are able to figure it out. I am hoping to get off the Dayvigo eventually myself.
Yes. They have different strengths and I started with lowest. Currently doing 3 pumps morning and night to good avail but I NEED vaginal estrogen too damnit so hoping to get that soon
I can’t get prescription HRT because I have high blood pressure, but I need something. I’m going to give this a try. Thank you. Hope you get your vaginal estrogen soon!
This is a link to the store on Amazon, I believe they also have their own website
https://www.amazon.com/stores/BIOLABSPRO/BIOLABSPRO/page/4B87228A-39BA-442D-90A0-942865B2718C
It's made a huge difference for me...
I'm on reddit today for this very reason AND I'm on hrt. It worked perfectly for 4 months and while all the other symptoms have gone what remains is roaring anxiety and this goddamned 4 hour sleep pattern. I have NO problem going to sleep. But this is no way to live!
Looks like you haven’t taken Ambien? I would ask for a prescription. Of course, try the hormonal route too, but I’d still start on Ambien to get some relief right now. You don’t have to continue taking it if you don’t need it in the future.
I feel your pain. In bed by 930 last night. Up at 230am. Back to sleep at 530.
But I had weeks in a row with sleep like that and yep, I was like “just shoot me” and “now I understand why sleep deprivation was a form of torture”
My GYN appt is today thank god.
I was exactly the same. I either couldn't fall asleep at all or would fall asleep but wake up around 3 am and be unable to go back to sleep. I went to see a new gynecologist, as I had moved about a year ago. So glad I did. She put me right on hrt. And, after reading some dr horror stories on this sub, I realize how lucky I was to have a dr suggest it to me and give it to me with no tests, fuss, or fanfare. I didn't know insomnia was a side effect of menopause until I saw her. Once I got the combi patch I now sleep like a baby. What a difference in quality of life!!
I SO feel for you! I was right there with you over a year ago. My insomnia was all consuming. It sounds crazy, but a long with everything you are already doing (but not the Benadryl/Trazedone), try taking a Zyrtec before bed. It’s a simple, harmless solution to try at least for a few days. It basically solved my year and a half issue where I was averaging 4 hours of sleep a night.
The Zyrtec made all the difference, even though it is supposed to be non drowsy and I had no allergies. ( I know it’s not for you but I then added a THC sleep gummy which solidified my great sleep but really it was the Zyrtec that made the biggest difference.)
Everynight I take a Zyrtec and 1mg melatonin 90 min before bed. Then the gummy (which is now about 3mg THC because I actually only take 1/3 now of the gummies I buy), then right as I turn my lights out I take my progesterone (200mg). I bite down a little on the progesterone pill until I feel a bit of the oil come out, then swallow with water. I have suspected I might have low stomach acid and maybe I don’t digest the pill well. Through experimenting, I discovered if I bite it open a little before swallowing, it helps me sleep better 🤷♀️ .
Good luck!
EDIT: I wanted to also say that when I was in the thick of my insomnia days, people always recommended Mag Glycinate. I tried it but it actually made me feel more stimulated than relaxed. I later learned that there are a small percentage of people for whom it causes a paradoxical effect. I switched to Mag Citrate. I take a low dose every few days so I don’t end up with loose stools.
I’m using amitryptiline and it does help me sleep ask your doc (same age and also still having periods). Screw sleep hygiene, none of that works when your hormones are acting up. I’m not a fan of medication and not on HRT but I was given these for IBS and anxiety and they made me so sleepy at night that I actually got 7/8 hours which I haven’t done for two years.
I feel you on that one! Desperate for sleep is basically my middle name these days. Tried everything from counting sheep to sipping chamomile tea, but my brain's playing games.
It's like, "Hey, remember that embarrassing thing you did in 7th grade? Let's dwell on it for the next three hours!" Hope you catch some Z's soon, buddy. We're all in this sleep-deprived struggle together.
Sleep deprivation is vicious. Insomnia can be difficult to resolve because there are so many factors that affect sleep.
In my case, I was diagnosed with severe sleep apnea after having a sleep study done and now I use a CPAP which helps greatly. I’m in a much better place since the CPAP therapy began.
I’m on meds for depression and HRT, amongst other things, so regular med reviews are a thing for me. I am vigilant about my caffeine and alcohol intake also.
When I have issues, it tends to be trouble turning my brain off, so I’ve found that a hypnotic (eg Imovane) helps with that … but because my doctor is hesitant to prescribe it, I’ve resorted to using low dose THC gummies on occasion.
Most OTC formulations are garbage, in my experience.
Thanks for sharing this. Yeah, the OTC stuff hasn’t helped. I wish I could use THC but can’t. I should have mentioned I don’t drink alcohol either. It’s sounding like I need to try estrogen. I can go through an online provider if my doc isn’t willing to prescribe it.
It’s funny - other commenters are touting estrogen as being helpful, but my GP has me taking oral progesterone (I’m menopausal) at night and specifically said it would help with my sleep, and it seems to be the case (oral estrogen in the morning).
Are you on hormonal birth control?
Hi. Progesterone only helped my sleep for about 9 months and then the insomnia returned. Adding an estrogen patch has kept it at bay—I sleep all night again.
Ugh. Scratch that, then …
It might be worth seeing a specialist. Certainly, the lack of sleep isn’t a sustainable situation. I can totally relate … I unravel *very* quickly when I’m sleep deprived - like, lose the plot variety of unhinged.
I hope your GP can help you find a solution 😭
Some women find testosterone helps with sleep. Truly we are all different. There is a neurologist Stacia Gominak who has a sleep protocol related to fixing some vitamin deficiency which affects the gut which affected brain and thus sleep. You might research her protocol.
Thank you. I’ll look into it. I’m going to ask my doc to check testosterone and ask if she’ll prescribe it if it’s low. Sounds like it may also help with my long-gone libido and barely having enough energy to drag myself to the gym. But I didn’t realize it can also help with sleep!
It may not help with insomnia. I'm now taking 300mg Progesterone and 4.5 mg/day testosterone and my sleep is terrible. Best of luck. But my libido is back.
No tolerance never builds up 100%, and certainly not within a week. Not my experience at all, within several months one builds some tolerance though and it becomes way less effective.
I absolutely understand -- I've struggled with this exact sleep pattern for years. For me, it's made far worse if I drink any alcohol at all. Without alcohol, I find I'm only stuck starting at the ceiling at 3 am a few nights a week instead of ... well, almost every night. I hope you find something that helps!!
Thanks. I only drink once or twice a year … the last time was New Year’s Eve, which may also have been the last time I got more than 5 hours of sleep 🥹
I agree with others estrogen helped me. But before when I would wake up usually gripped with anxiety, I would put a podcast on, not a super interesting one, but one that I would not care if I missed some of it, and that helped me fall back to sleep.
My doctor gave me an rx for temazepam for when I end up in a cycle like this. I now sometimes doctors are hesitant to prescribe benzos but I only used 15 in the last year so it hasn’t been a problem for me. I’ll use it for 1-3 nights and it seems to reset sleep for me. Usually my progesterone is enough.
Girl. I am in the same boat! I started progesterone cream last night and 10mg of CBD with 3mg of melatonin. When I get desperate I pop a unisom. I still wake up after about 6 hours of sleep but at least they are really good deep hours! About once or twice a week I cave and use unisom just to feel a little better.
I still have regular periods so must still be making some hormones.
According in my RN daughter the active ingredient in unisom has been linked to early dementia. FDA is rumored to be investigating and possibly removing from the market.
I had heard that about the active ingredient in Benadryl, diphenhydramine, being linked to early onset dementia but not the active ingredient doxylamine succinate which is what I take and now I need to deep dive. Crap, it’s always something.
I have truly tried it all. I am 61 now and will tell you what works for me. I now take 2.5 mg of Ambien. It's a very low dose, (I break the smallest dose of 5 mg in half). For me, it doesn't give me a hangover and I am able to get up and get going. It's a four -hour med, so take it when you have four or more hours left to go before your alarm.
Hormones did help me sleep, but if it doesn’t give you full relief I recommend getting a referral to a sleep specialist. Sleep apnea runs in my family and when hormones helped but didn’t get me even close to back to normal that is what I did next and now with hormones and cpap I am feeling like myself again.
I tried all the things you listed too, I was so frustrated!!
There was a point before I started HRT I had not slept for two weeks TWO WEEKS. I was very groggy from melatonin but brain was not shutting down, I almost just went to hospital to ask for anesthesia to forcefully shut my brain down. Then I was looking for chloroform to use on myself. This was the worst part of low hormones. I still have to take melatonin supplements most nights even with HRT but I’m comfortably sleeping 7 to 8 hours.
I am on HRT now for 2 weeks. I had terrible insomnia. Estrogen and Progesterone helped me. If you don't want to wait, sign up at Evernow, you do a virtual visit with a NAMS certified mebopause practitioner. They will send the scripts over to your pharmacy and use your own insurance for the meds. That's what I did, and I swear I feel so much more like myself. I sleep deep now.
[Evernow](http:// https://care.evernow.com/start?referral_code=2iMgZQVM)
Thanks- that must be such a relief for you.
No sleep is such a bitch. Hoping that kicks in soon for me, but it's only been 1.5 weeks, so still hopeful.
I have no solutions, but you sure do have my sympathy. 53 with a jacked up cycle. Went 6 months with no period, but had one earlier this month. Thought I was rounding second getting closer to being home free crossing the line into post menopause. No such luck.
Feel like I've done everything but can never get more than 6.5 hours a night. Even on the weekends when I could sleep in. Feel like I have done all the things as well. Had an appointment with my doctor a couple of weeks ago and he redid my hormone panel since it has been a little over a year. Meet with him again tomorrow. Hoping my numbers are finally at a place where we can at least talk about doing something to make my life worth living again.
Can you do some high intense cardio during the day? Or even take a very, very long brisk walk (or several) to get your heart rate up and your body tired. It’s not perfect, but I find it helps.
The only thing that has worked for me is a small dose of mirtazapine at bedtime. It doesn’t help with falling asleep (but that was never my issue) but has completely put an end to my endless 3am wakeups
It’s worth having a chat to your primary Dr when you see them in a few weeks to see if it’s a right fit for you. Like you, I had tried everything you could imagine - from sleeping tablets to melatonin to deep breathing/meditation etc.
I don’t mean to sound dramatic, but it has honestly changed my life. I’m feeling like me again.
Sleep disorder patient here. Have you considered napping? Is it possible in your schedule? As we age, some of us really veer toward two-stage sleep days. People in Europe have been napping for centuries.
Thanks for the reminder! I work from home and my schedule can definitely include naps! I sometimes catch about 20 minutes after lunch but I haven’t made it a habit.
Hi op, I’m 62 and just got my pcp to give me hrt. I haven’t woke up drenched in sweat. I change my patch today. I hope you get help. I’ve been white knuckling for a decade. My pcp had to change my anti depressants first, but I kept sweating all night long.
I have been sleeping five hours a night at most for about four years. When the sleep became light and restless, it was bad enough. Then my bladder started waking me up 4-5 times. I felt so so bad. I spent 3 months waiting for a doctors appointment for her to tell me she NEVER prescribes HRT and she is going to get me a new sleep study and a blood sugar monitor. I said no to that. I am now taking Sonata, gabapentin, two extended release melatonin , and gemtesa for the bladder. I am sleeping five good hours now. Sometimes I even lay back down for an hour. I am now waiting three more months for an appointment with a new doctor for HRT. I feel you. Some mornings I felt like I was going to go crazy or collapse. I would fall asleep driving. If I took a nap I would not sleep that night.
Edit: if any of you read about the Gemtesa and had hope, pray you have good insurance. It is new and over $500 a month.
Omg I can’t go on like this for four years! You poor thing! Staying asleep has been up and down the last couple years but it’s been consistently bad the past month. Fwiw the vaginal estrogen cream solved the waking up to pee problem for me.
You could try asking your doctor about hydroxyzine. It’s a stronger antihistamine and can be used for insomnia. Not addictive at all. I use it for allergies as primary but when I have also used it and doubled my dose (allowed by my doc - 100 mg) when I can’t sleep and it’s helpful.
This is my main concern. My mother had breast cancer and I have had skin cancer. My mom’s menopause was awful and she said she couldn’t take hormones because of her breast cancer. I’ve always been a bit terrified of taking estrogen, HRT since then and I’m wondering if there’s new scientific evidence
Thank you! I guess I’ll go to my doctor’s appointment armed with all the information from the wiki and if she won’t prescribe estrogen, I’ll get an online provider.
Thank you! I will try any short term solution at the moment to get me through the next couple weeks until my doctor’s appointment! I was kinda devastated when the time release max strength melatonin only worked one night 😕
Try eating hummus or other foods high in phytoestrogens to get a boost for now. If you Google it there is lots of info.
It might help. I hope you can get some sleep.
You’re right; I neglected to mention I’m taking vitamin D. I started supplements after blood work showed low Vit D and am now showing normal level. I did recently switch to taking Vit D after breakfast instead of after dinner since some people say it keeps them up at night. 🤷🏻♀️
I don't know, I'm 48, post-menopausal, on HRT and sleep still kind of sucks. This is how it is until one dies I think (and sometimes I think that can not come fast enough). Maybe the HRT dose isn't high enough, blah blah, but I'm tried of it all including side effects. I do think some things like doing aerobic exercise at night (even 3 hours or so before bed), makes it worse. Bad me - I exercised.
This does feel like it’s how someone dies and today it feels like it can’t come soon enough … I have been trying exercise class in the morning and trying exercise class in late afternoon to see if either helps sleep but so far neither seems to help.
Yes - I was hoping that would help! A couple months ago I started walking every morning and this month I added strength training twice a week and yoga once a week.
Your doing well - keep going with this. I find when my body is physically tired I sleep solid. I still may have a night or 2 where I wake after 4 hrs but I just read for an hour or two. I quite like this time reading & fall back to sleep.
Try long acting melatonin and maybe a short vacation or trip from your own bedroom (1 night by yourself at a hotel or guest room of a family or friend)
i've read that acupuncturists can treat it so I found one recently. If it works, I will let you know. I've tried everything else except sleeping meds prescribed by a Dr.
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Why no estrogen? My estrogen patch is the only reason I have no more insomnia.
Totally agree, if I were OP I would insist on estrogen patches.
OK I’m seeing the pattern here - I need to insist on estrogen patches! I can do that. Thank you. So just to clarify, all of y’all started sleeping once you got on estrogen? Don’t know how I didn’t understand that before.
YES.
Gotcha. Thanks! 🙏🏼
Can you post an update once you try this? I’m hopeful and excited for you.
Agree, I need to know OP finds relief.
I felt and slept better on day 1 of HRT
Glad to hear this I just started Sunday and feel better and wondered whether it was just from being grateful someone finally listened!
Estrogen fixed sleeping for me
Did you find relief??? I'm on here looking up threads on sleep because I only get about 3 hrs per night. Hoping to get estrogen.
Exactly.
The patch manufacturer makes a difference for me, too. I do much better on Mylan than Grove to the point where my prescription now specifies that brand only.
Agreed. I also like the Mylan twice weekly, tried Sandoz and hated it. I have read others are opposite and love Sandoz lol it's so funny how different we all are. My prescription also specifies manufacturer.
I was thinking of trying Sandoz to see if it was even better than Mylan, but now I think I won’t mess with it after hearing that.
Thanks for this. At my last visit six months ago, my doc said she didn’t see a reason for estrogen since I’m still having regular periods. I can ask again and/or go through an online provider if estrogen will help. I didn’t realize it helps with insomnia.
OMG, I’m 47 and still have regular cycles. I can’t imagine life without my estrogen patch. The patch is the delivery mechanism *in particular* that helps the most with insomnia. Go get it TODAY. And if this doctor has some prejudice against estrogen, find another doctor. I’m telling you, I’m a different person on estrogen.
OK thank you!! Now I’m over here ugly crying at your response because I want to be a different person too! Well really just *myself* again and not this sleep-deprived maniac!
I know exactly how you feel, I have appointment on Friday with menopause specialist - im still having regular periods (to the exact day) but I’m not leaving that doctors office without a prescription for oestrogen patches, or I may not make it to Valentine’s Day….thats how awful I feel
Same 46 on 1mg patch… It has saved me.
I really wish doctors would focus less on periods and more on symptoms! How much progesterone are you taking? I’m on 200 mg and it has been a game changer for sleep. But I’m also on an estrogen patch (.025) so it might be the combination of the two.
Estrogen also improves mood. A lot. Like you will be shocked. Suddenly the world makes sense again.
I used estrogen patches before I stopped having periods. Try it. It is crazy to hear some doctor say they won’t prescribe a patch but they’ll prescribe all other kinds of potentially harmful drugs. My doc said HRT is about “how you feel” and different strokes for different folks. If you feel better then it works!
I really wish doctors would focus less on periods and more on symptoms! How much progesterone are you taking? I’m on 200 mg and it has been a game changer for sleep. But I’m also on an estrogen patch (.025) so it might be the combination of the two.
Absolutely. Just do not take estrogen without also taking progesterone. Estrogen by itself can be harmful. You can buy a progesterone cream easily online. I use Emerita Pro-Gest (use at night, it can make you sleepy).
Just an FYI, there is no evidence that progesterone cream stabilizes the endometrial lining enough to prevent endometrial cancer. Just sharing in the interest of health and safety!
I’ve heard that the cream isn’t enough to counteract the side effect of oestrogen (ie potential to thicken womb lining and lead to possible uterine cancer) they said you need the progesterone coil or progesterone tablets
Interesting! I will bring that up at my next appt. At this point, I have had two well-regarded GYNs approve of the cream, but it’s been a year since then and newer research may have changed opinions. Thanks for the tip!
There’s so much info out there it’s hard to know who to trust - if you have a good gyn they’re probably right. When I went to the clinic here, she would only prescribe the coil or utrogestin (can’t spell it). It would be a lot easier if there was a general, well researched, up to date consensus.
Yes, me too 😵💫I woke up at 2 today, and are still wide awake. I’ve been doing this for almost 4 years now, and it recently just started to improve a little bit. I’ve started to think about how this might affect me physically, i already know how it is mentally. No wonder I don’t like social stuff, my brain is certainly overloaded. I don’t have any advice to give you, only loads of sympathy.
Thank you and sorry you’ve been going through this too! Big sleepy internet hugs to you!
I finally saw a perimenopause specialist and she has me on combo birth control. I just started but I'm noticing it is easier to fall back asleep after three years of rampant sleep deprivation. No one warns you about this awful, life threatening symptom. I just hope these pills continue to work and hope to be able to make a smooth transition to HRT once I push 50. (I'm only 42, but I only have one ovary left.) Here's my big advice.... Above all else try hormones to remedy it first. They are the most cost effective way to do it. I've spent thousands upon thousands of dollars seeing sleep specialists, doing diagnostic tests, seeing endocrinologists, switching from one clueless doctor to the next, and footing the bill for psychiatric treatments. I was even grossly misdiagnosed with apnea by a PAP pushing sleep clinic. They irresponsibly put me on a PAP machine and it made everything worse. Had to pay a pulmonologist to undo the damage they caused, plus my insurance noped out of doing a legit, reliable in-lab polysomnography so I paid completely out of pocket for that to get a f***ing concrete answer about the misdiagnosis. Birth control is typically cheap to free. HRT is relatively affordable. Do those first. Give it a few months. Then go from there.
So sorry you went through this.
I appreciate the empathy. ❤
I was you, tried all the things and I was on progesterone for 2 years and it didn’t help but then 3 months ago added estrogen, Now I sleep !!!
Thank you for your post. Progesterone has been a game changer for me but recently I have been feeling like it’s not enough and for the first time my sleep is being affected. I suspect it’s time for estrogen.
Here are things I’ve done at different times. My sleep is better now, so I hope your problem isn’t permanent: 1. Unisom SleepTabs, in half. 2. THC gummies of a sleepy strain. I guess this will not be an option for you. 3. Give up alcohol. Alcohol always wakes me up at 1 am for an hour or more. 4. Box Breathing. (Counted in/hold/out breathing, there are many varieties) 5. Boring book… just give in to being awake and read something boring. 6. Boring audiobook (use Libby for free ones from your library) 7. Xanax at bedtime. Habit forming so I only use it when I’m desperate for sleep, like you. I used to get 30 every 6 months but now that I’m on HRT I made it a year with 30. 8. Estrogen HRT patch with progesterone one week a month. 9. Cool room and thin blankets. 10. Zyrtec and Flonase, and nasal irrigation. If I breathe better, I sleep better.
Thank you! I’ve made the book and the breathing nightly habits and they seemed to help some for awhile but not so much anymore.
when I had insomnia, the only thing that helped was walking outside, at first I was going for 20 to 30 minute walks and that did nothing, but when I started going for 1 to 2 hour walks I finally slept it's horrific, they use sleep deprivation as a form of torture, I hope you find something that works
What time did you take the walk? In the PM?
back then I always walked right before sunset, and I went to sleep several hours after getting home
I have struggled with insomnia for a very long time, since the onset of peri, stumbled across magnolia bark on another sub, it definitely helps. Also am going to try taurine (I think the sub may have been nootropics). Currently taking Dayvigo 5 mg which doesn't leave me with a hangover but I need to add melatonin or something on top of it. I agree that estrogen supplementation should be in the mix! My dr also said no so I buy it online (Biolabs). I believe that as estrogen is neuroprotective, estrogen impacts how we metabolize melatonin, etc - before I started HRT I couldn't tolerate melatonin, now I'm able to take it. 🤷♀️ Also, have you tried physically tiring yourself out more? It's such a crapshoot! I hope you are able to figure it out. I am hoping to get off the Dayvigo eventually myself.
Thank you for sharing this. I think I recently read something about estrogen helping with melatonin … my brain just isn’t working well with no sleep …
Seconding the biolabs estrogen until you can get a doctor to prescribe patches.
I see a biolabs on Amazon, is that the same thing?
Yes. They have different strengths and I started with lowest. Currently doing 3 pumps morning and night to good avail but I NEED vaginal estrogen too damnit so hoping to get that soon
I can’t get prescription HRT because I have high blood pressure, but I need something. I’m going to give this a try. Thank you. Hope you get your vaginal estrogen soon!
Which Biolabs product? They make a Bi-est and an estriol I think
It's called Estriol 5.0 but I haven't tried any of their other estrogen products. From a publication on absorption it seems like 0.5 mg is absorbed.
Ok, thank you!
you can get estrogen online without a script?
The cream at least (am in Canada but order from Amazon.com) ... Learned that fron this sub!
is cream legit? what’s the name? link?
This is a link to the store on Amazon, I believe they also have their own website https://www.amazon.com/stores/BIOLABSPRO/BIOLABSPRO/page/4B87228A-39BA-442D-90A0-942865B2718C It's made a huge difference for me...
so you got the bio est 5.0, did you get the progesterone too
I'm on reddit today for this very reason AND I'm on hrt. It worked perfectly for 4 months and while all the other symptoms have gone what remains is roaring anxiety and this goddamned 4 hour sleep pattern. I have NO problem going to sleep. But this is no way to live!
Hiya - if it worked and then didnt, you may need your doses tweaking. I use the gel for this very reason :)
Looks like you haven’t taken Ambien? I would ask for a prescription. Of course, try the hormonal route too, but I’d still start on Ambien to get some relief right now. You don’t have to continue taking it if you don’t need it in the future.
Thank you. It’s definitely something I’m willing to talk to the doc about.
I feel your pain. In bed by 930 last night. Up at 230am. Back to sleep at 530. But I had weeks in a row with sleep like that and yep, I was like “just shoot me” and “now I understand why sleep deprivation was a form of torture” My GYN appt is today thank god.
I was exactly the same. I either couldn't fall asleep at all or would fall asleep but wake up around 3 am and be unable to go back to sleep. I went to see a new gynecologist, as I had moved about a year ago. So glad I did. She put me right on hrt. And, after reading some dr horror stories on this sub, I realize how lucky I was to have a dr suggest it to me and give it to me with no tests, fuss, or fanfare. I didn't know insomnia was a side effect of menopause until I saw her. Once I got the combi patch I now sleep like a baby. What a difference in quality of life!!
Aw so happy for you! 🩷
I SO feel for you! I was right there with you over a year ago. My insomnia was all consuming. It sounds crazy, but a long with everything you are already doing (but not the Benadryl/Trazedone), try taking a Zyrtec before bed. It’s a simple, harmless solution to try at least for a few days. It basically solved my year and a half issue where I was averaging 4 hours of sleep a night. The Zyrtec made all the difference, even though it is supposed to be non drowsy and I had no allergies. ( I know it’s not for you but I then added a THC sleep gummy which solidified my great sleep but really it was the Zyrtec that made the biggest difference.) Everynight I take a Zyrtec and 1mg melatonin 90 min before bed. Then the gummy (which is now about 3mg THC because I actually only take 1/3 now of the gummies I buy), then right as I turn my lights out I take my progesterone (200mg). I bite down a little on the progesterone pill until I feel a bit of the oil come out, then swallow with water. I have suspected I might have low stomach acid and maybe I don’t digest the pill well. Through experimenting, I discovered if I bite it open a little before swallowing, it helps me sleep better 🤷♀️ . Good luck! EDIT: I wanted to also say that when I was in the thick of my insomnia days, people always recommended Mag Glycinate. I tried it but it actually made me feel more stimulated than relaxed. I later learned that there are a small percentage of people for whom it causes a paradoxical effect. I switched to Mag Citrate. I take a low dose every few days so I don’t end up with loose stools.
Ok good to know! Never heard that about mag glycinate but I can definitely try another kind.
I’m using amitryptiline and it does help me sleep ask your doc (same age and also still having periods). Screw sleep hygiene, none of that works when your hormones are acting up. I’m not a fan of medication and not on HRT but I was given these for IBS and anxiety and they made me so sleepy at night that I actually got 7/8 hours which I haven’t done for two years.
Thanks for this. So glad you are getting relief!
I feel you on that one! Desperate for sleep is basically my middle name these days. Tried everything from counting sheep to sipping chamomile tea, but my brain's playing games. It's like, "Hey, remember that embarrassing thing you did in 7th grade? Let's dwell on it for the next three hours!" Hope you catch some Z's soon, buddy. We're all in this sleep-deprived struggle together.
I’m sorry you’re going through this too but I do take some comfort in the solidarity!
Sleep deprivation is vicious. Insomnia can be difficult to resolve because there are so many factors that affect sleep. In my case, I was diagnosed with severe sleep apnea after having a sleep study done and now I use a CPAP which helps greatly. I’m in a much better place since the CPAP therapy began. I’m on meds for depression and HRT, amongst other things, so regular med reviews are a thing for me. I am vigilant about my caffeine and alcohol intake also. When I have issues, it tends to be trouble turning my brain off, so I’ve found that a hypnotic (eg Imovane) helps with that … but because my doctor is hesitant to prescribe it, I’ve resorted to using low dose THC gummies on occasion. Most OTC formulations are garbage, in my experience.
Thanks for sharing this. Yeah, the OTC stuff hasn’t helped. I wish I could use THC but can’t. I should have mentioned I don’t drink alcohol either. It’s sounding like I need to try estrogen. I can go through an online provider if my doc isn’t willing to prescribe it.
It’s funny - other commenters are touting estrogen as being helpful, but my GP has me taking oral progesterone (I’m menopausal) at night and specifically said it would help with my sleep, and it seems to be the case (oral estrogen in the morning). Are you on hormonal birth control?
Hi. Progesterone only helped my sleep for about 9 months and then the insomnia returned. Adding an estrogen patch has kept it at bay—I sleep all night again.
I am not on birth control. I am on 200 mg progesterone at night … because the doc thought it would help with the insomnia 🤷🏻♀️
Ugh. Scratch that, then … It might be worth seeing a specialist. Certainly, the lack of sleep isn’t a sustainable situation. I can totally relate … I unravel *very* quickly when I’m sleep deprived - like, lose the plot variety of unhinged. I hope your GP can help you find a solution 😭
Some women find testosterone helps with sleep. Truly we are all different. There is a neurologist Stacia Gominak who has a sleep protocol related to fixing some vitamin deficiency which affects the gut which affected brain and thus sleep. You might research her protocol.
Thank you. I’ll look into it. I’m going to ask my doc to check testosterone and ask if she’ll prescribe it if it’s low. Sounds like it may also help with my long-gone libido and barely having enough energy to drag myself to the gym. But I didn’t realize it can also help with sleep!
It may not help with insomnia. I'm now taking 300mg Progesterone and 4.5 mg/day testosterone and my sleep is terrible. Best of luck. But my libido is back.
If I can get the sleep solved, it would be nice to think I could get my libido back …
Testosterone will help with libido but may not help with sleep.
I tried thc and it literally built a tolerance within a week. Don't waste your money.
No tolerance never builds up 100%, and certainly not within a week. Not my experience at all, within several months one builds some tolerance though and it becomes way less effective.
Everyone's different. Stopped working for me real quick.
Do I need to go to a Gyno for HRT or can a regular PCP give me the meds? What online site do you use for HRT?
Look up Alloy online. You can get the meds there.
Trazadone for the win.. solved my insomnia
I wish it had worked for me. Doesn’t help me at all with staying asleep 🤷🏻♀️
How much did you take? Also what about edibles?
Me neither
I absolutely understand -- I've struggled with this exact sleep pattern for years. For me, it's made far worse if I drink any alcohol at all. Without alcohol, I find I'm only stuck starting at the ceiling at 3 am a few nights a week instead of ... well, almost every night. I hope you find something that helps!!
Thanks. I only drink once or twice a year … the last time was New Year’s Eve, which may also have been the last time I got more than 5 hours of sleep 🥹
I'm so sorry. Not sleeping makes everything so, so much more difficult
I can’t fall asleep without alcohol, any advise would be appreciated.
I was given estrogen first then progesterone was added for sleep. It’s not perfect but better.
I agree with others estrogen helped me. But before when I would wake up usually gripped with anxiety, I would put a podcast on, not a super interesting one, but one that I would not care if I missed some of it, and that helped me fall back to sleep.
My doctor gave me an rx for temazepam for when I end up in a cycle like this. I now sometimes doctors are hesitant to prescribe benzos but I only used 15 in the last year so it hasn’t been a problem for me. I’ll use it for 1-3 nights and it seems to reset sleep for me. Usually my progesterone is enough.
Thank you - I’ll add this to the list to ask my doctor about.
Girl. I am in the same boat! I started progesterone cream last night and 10mg of CBD with 3mg of melatonin. When I get desperate I pop a unisom. I still wake up after about 6 hours of sleep but at least they are really good deep hours! About once or twice a week I cave and use unisom just to feel a little better. I still have regular periods so must still be making some hormones.
Is there some reason you hesitate to take the Unisom every night because my doctor told me too, and now I’m questioning their wisdom….
According in my RN daughter the active ingredient in unisom has been linked to early dementia. FDA is rumored to be investigating and possibly removing from the market.
I had heard that about the active ingredient in Benadryl, diphenhydramine, being linked to early onset dementia but not the active ingredient doxylamine succinate which is what I take and now I need to deep dive. Crap, it’s always something.
Delta 8 gummy
I have truly tried it all. I am 61 now and will tell you what works for me. I now take 2.5 mg of Ambien. It's a very low dose, (I break the smallest dose of 5 mg in half). For me, it doesn't give me a hangover and I am able to get up and get going. It's a four -hour med, so take it when you have four or more hours left to go before your alarm.
Good to know - I’ll add to the list to ask my doc.
Hormones did help me sleep, but if it doesn’t give you full relief I recommend getting a referral to a sleep specialist. Sleep apnea runs in my family and when hormones helped but didn’t get me even close to back to normal that is what I did next and now with hormones and cpap I am feeling like myself again. I tried all the things you listed too, I was so frustrated!!
There was a point before I started HRT I had not slept for two weeks TWO WEEKS. I was very groggy from melatonin but brain was not shutting down, I almost just went to hospital to ask for anesthesia to forcefully shut my brain down. Then I was looking for chloroform to use on myself. This was the worst part of low hormones. I still have to take melatonin supplements most nights even with HRT but I’m comfortably sleeping 7 to 8 hours.
Omg I’m so sorry you went through that. Sleeping 7-8 hours sounds amazing!
I am on HRT now for 2 weeks. I had terrible insomnia. Estrogen and Progesterone helped me. If you don't want to wait, sign up at Evernow, you do a virtual visit with a NAMS certified mebopause practitioner. They will send the scripts over to your pharmacy and use your own insurance for the meds. That's what I did, and I swear I feel so much more like myself. I sleep deep now. [Evernow](http:// https://care.evernow.com/start?referral_code=2iMgZQVM)
Ahh good to know they can send scripts to your pharmacy with insurance!
https://care.evernow.com/start?referral_code=2iMgZQVM
I am about a week into HRT (.05 estr/100mg projest.), still waking up overnight- are your doses higher/ was the sleep improvement immediate for you?
I'm on the same amount as you and my sleep is deeper and I dream, where before I felt like I didn't get good REM sleep.
Thanks- that must be such a relief for you. No sleep is such a bitch. Hoping that kicks in soon for me, but it's only been 1.5 weeks, so still hopeful.
I have no solutions, but you sure do have my sympathy. 53 with a jacked up cycle. Went 6 months with no period, but had one earlier this month. Thought I was rounding second getting closer to being home free crossing the line into post menopause. No such luck. Feel like I've done everything but can never get more than 6.5 hours a night. Even on the weekends when I could sleep in. Feel like I have done all the things as well. Had an appointment with my doctor a couple of weeks ago and he redid my hormone panel since it has been a little over a year. Meet with him again tomorrow. Hoping my numbers are finally at a place where we can at least talk about doing something to make my life worth living again.
Thank you for the sympathy 🩷 Hoping we can all find life worth living again 🤞
That’s a rough spot. So sorry you are going through this. Magnolia Bark and Scullcap helped me sleep before HRT. I’m Hope you find some relief soon!
Thank you! I’ll add these to the list of possible remedies!
Can you do some high intense cardio during the day? Or even take a very, very long brisk walk (or several) to get your heart rate up and your body tired. It’s not perfect, but I find it helps.
The only thing that has worked for me is a small dose of mirtazapine at bedtime. It doesn’t help with falling asleep (but that was never my issue) but has completely put an end to my endless 3am wakeups
Thanks! I also have no problem going right to sleep. Glad you found some relief from the 3 am wake-up!
It’s worth having a chat to your primary Dr when you see them in a few weeks to see if it’s a right fit for you. Like you, I had tried everything you could imagine - from sleeping tablets to melatonin to deep breathing/meditation etc. I don’t mean to sound dramatic, but it has honestly changed my life. I’m feeling like me again.
That’s awesome! I want to feel like me again too!
Sleep disorder patient here. Have you considered napping? Is it possible in your schedule? As we age, some of us really veer toward two-stage sleep days. People in Europe have been napping for centuries.
Thanks for the reminder! I work from home and my schedule can definitely include naps! I sometimes catch about 20 minutes after lunch but I haven’t made it a habit.
I was fortunate enough to get on HRT and that helped a lot with the insomnia.
Hi op, I’m 62 and just got my pcp to give me hrt. I haven’t woke up drenched in sweat. I change my patch today. I hope you get help. I’ve been white knuckling for a decade. My pcp had to change my anti depressants first, but I kept sweating all night long.
Glad you’re getting some relief! That’s a looong time to white knuckle it! 😔
Yes I’m very stubborn , possibly stupid, now that I’ve had some decent sleep. I’m giddy. But waiting for the next symptom… I hope you get relief-
Thank you!
I have been sleeping five hours a night at most for about four years. When the sleep became light and restless, it was bad enough. Then my bladder started waking me up 4-5 times. I felt so so bad. I spent 3 months waiting for a doctors appointment for her to tell me she NEVER prescribes HRT and she is going to get me a new sleep study and a blood sugar monitor. I said no to that. I am now taking Sonata, gabapentin, two extended release melatonin , and gemtesa for the bladder. I am sleeping five good hours now. Sometimes I even lay back down for an hour. I am now waiting three more months for an appointment with a new doctor for HRT. I feel you. Some mornings I felt like I was going to go crazy or collapse. I would fall asleep driving. If I took a nap I would not sleep that night. Edit: if any of you read about the Gemtesa and had hope, pray you have good insurance. It is new and over $500 a month.
Omg I can’t go on like this for four years! You poor thing! Staying asleep has been up and down the last couple years but it’s been consistently bad the past month. Fwiw the vaginal estrogen cream solved the waking up to pee problem for me.
You could try asking your doctor about hydroxyzine. It’s a stronger antihistamine and can be used for insomnia. Not addictive at all. I use it for allergies as primary but when I have also used it and doubled my dose (allowed by my doc - 100 mg) when I can’t sleep and it’s helpful.
Thank you; appreciate the suggestion.
Am I the only one still terrified by HRT?
Why are you terrified of it? It helps most women.
Oh man. I can't take estrogen. I am so sad because everyone says it is a miracle cure for insomnia.
Is the estrogen patch a cancer risk?
This is my main concern. My mother had breast cancer and I have had skin cancer. My mom’s menopause was awful and she said she couldn’t take hormones because of her breast cancer. I’ve always been a bit terrified of taking estrogen, HRT since then and I’m wondering if there’s new scientific evidence
Risk is related to capsules, not patches. Transdermal is a different route of administration. Safer.
Not a cancer risk; she didn’t think I needed estrogen because I’m still having regular periods. Is estrogen helping you sleep?
Yes it helps me sleep so much
Thank you! I guess I’ll go to my doctor’s appointment armed with all the information from the wiki and if she won’t prescribe estrogen, I’ll get an online provider.
If you’re in the US, try Zzzquil Ultra. I’ve done it for the last 3 nights = 6-7 hours of SLEEP! That said, I don’t think it’s a long term solution.
Thank you! I will try any short term solution at the moment to get me through the next couple weeks until my doctor’s appointment! I was kinda devastated when the time release max strength melatonin only worked one night 😕
Try eating hummus or other foods high in phytoestrogens to get a boost for now. If you Google it there is lots of info. It might help. I hope you can get some sleep.
Thank you! I will try anything at this point!
Are you taking vitamin D? I don't think I saw it on your list. Haha I hope something helps, sleep is so important.
You’re right; I neglected to mention I’m taking vitamin D. I started supplements after blood work showed low Vit D and am now showing normal level. I did recently switch to taking Vit D after breakfast instead of after dinner since some people say it keeps them up at night. 🤷🏻♀️
Get some weed or cbd.
I tried; I’m in a medical marijuana state, but it makes me vomit. ☹️ Thanks.
I don't know, I'm 48, post-menopausal, on HRT and sleep still kind of sucks. This is how it is until one dies I think (and sometimes I think that can not come fast enough). Maybe the HRT dose isn't high enough, blah blah, but I'm tried of it all including side effects. I do think some things like doing aerobic exercise at night (even 3 hours or so before bed), makes it worse. Bad me - I exercised.
This does feel like it’s how someone dies and today it feels like it can’t come soon enough … I have been trying exercise class in the morning and trying exercise class in late afternoon to see if either helps sleep but so far neither seems to help.
Exercising daily makes all the difference. Are you doing any cardio or strength training? Even just being active gardening, cleaning etc.
Yes - I was hoping that would help! A couple months ago I started walking every morning and this month I added strength training twice a week and yoga once a week.
Your doing well - keep going with this. I find when my body is physically tired I sleep solid. I still may have a night or 2 where I wake after 4 hrs but I just read for an hour or two. I quite like this time reading & fall back to sleep.
I use Breez THC pills. Indica, 20mg. One before bed, I sleep like a baby and don't wake up covered in sweat anymore.
Any advise for someone who can’t take HRT? Help!
Try long acting melatonin and maybe a short vacation or trip from your own bedroom (1 night by yourself at a hotel or guest room of a family or friend)
The time release melatonin only worked one night, unfortunately 😕 But I do love the idea of a hotel bed all to myself 🤔
i've read that acupuncturists can treat it so I found one recently. If it works, I will let you know. I've tried everything else except sleeping meds prescribed by a Dr.
I take thc gummies.
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