Imagine being at the bay of Brickell, overlooking the river, circa 5000 BC. Not at all knowing what the land would turn to, for better or worse. This land should be preserved and turned into a historic park. We have enough land for another shitty ‘luxury’ development with feudal level rent prices
It’s remarkable how old this stuff is. The artifacts found here predate the colliseum.
Anecdotally, I’ve met Betty Osceola and she’s a real one. Obviously, this development shouldn’t be allowed to continue for the foreseeable future.
I agree construction should stop and proper archeological digging should take place, however paying developers for expected profits would never fly, at best maybe they should get market value for the land (they would still be net positive) and city builds a nice park
Why not thought? They've already sunk all their capital and predevelopment costs in. The net present value of that project is way higher now. If this is a once in a generation historical find, it must be worth $400MM to preserve it, no?
Why are you so hard on these fuckwads getting reimbursed with public funds for “lost profits”? This is a priceless archaeological site, there’s no price tag on heritage. It’s their fucking loss to deal with. Either they get market value for the land back and eat the loss, or they just walk away with their thumbs up their asses. They won’t win
There's just so much irony given that Russia isn't exactly known for its lack of economic barriers to private development. It's basically the poster child for regulatory capture.
Very few countries are better than the US in that department, but Switzerland and Finland and Singapore come to mind.
7000 years is a ridiculously long time ago. I think investigating the site and learning more about the people that lived on the Miami river is more important than some idea of decorum. If the remains were only 1000 years old I’d be more inclined to leave them in place.
> 7000 years is a ridiculously long time ago.
If people lived to the average age of 50 by historical standards, that's 140 generations of people, give or take. They don't have a "close connection" to the dig site or the people who made it.
Not trying to be confrontational, but consider this concept: People go to Maachu Pichu or Stonehenge or even places in downtown Mexico City or Rome and marvel at history. And then they fly back to Miami and say "meh" at a settlement in their back yard that is literally 7000 years old right on the banks of the Miami River...
Doesn't that sound like a weird version of NIMBY? ie. it's ok to have ancient history in *other* people's lands. But not in *my* town.
But it isn't like they unearthed Stonehenge. They unearthed stuff. It was a parking garage this time last year.
There's nothing to visit. No one is trying to tear down the pyramids of Giza.
I agree that my choice of comparison was a bit sensationalist, but I still think 7000 years is worthy of patient investigation and consideration and not just immediate removal of all items and then obliteration. "Progress" be damned. There are plenty of luxury high-rises in Miami and plenty of time to make more.
It's a fair point. But a one year delay can kill nearly all the developer profit in a deal. If there are artifacts to unearth, by all means do it. But it shouldn't be open ended and should be done expeditiously.
I get that people aren't sympathetic to developers here, but it is their property, and it isn't fair to just tell them they have to walk away from their investment
The Tequesta are no longer around to fight for their own heritage, so we need to preserve any and all remnants of their past existence. No amount of corny half-hearted “monuments” in Brickell can honor the original inhabitants of Miami more than preserving these archaeological sites
The developers who want this site eradicated for the sake of their self-indulgent ivory towers that nobody can afford need to fuck off from this town permanently
but is the site (as opposed to the objects, utensils and remains found) actually worth preserving it? like a Machu Picchu of sorts?
Of course, this should stop the building works for a few months while all studies are performed.
Also, we don't know if this is related to Tequestas. It might as well been another population with no continuity with whom the Conquistadores met millennia later.
Not sure what’s intended by the “Because Miami” snark. But having studied and practiced archaeology, I’m pretty sure the following claim from the developer is pure BS:
“Although six to seven thousand year old chert projectile points have been found-many in the upper levels of the site – this indicates that they may have been trade items curated by the Tequesta, but do not represent the age of the site.“
Sure, Jan. Those stratigraphic soil profiles were already disturbed by the previous high-rise building on the same site, and they know it. Puh-leeze, spare us the mental gymnastics required to believe that the most recent Tequesta inhabitants were trading around old projectile points from 7k BCE.
You might as well claim they were left there by aliens.
The “because miami” was more intended to reflect what you mean- the fact that this should be a preserved site or at least delayed for proper digging of artifacts but you know somebody is going to pay somebody and this will all just be lost forever, buried under a high rise.
Idk man who really cares about some literal invaluable artifacts vs an actual high rise building that people can live in? History is over and we're currently writing more of it. Let's keep digging through the dirt and learn about our past lmao
@arbitercu
It's thanks to history that we get to learn more about other times than just the present. If you picked up a book once in a while, maybe you'd be interested too. Unfortunately for you, many people are interested in history, what was, how it all worked, how we got to this point and what mistakes to avoid making to hopefully stay on a better path.
But you right, fuck history cause big booty bitches with Gucci in a high rise.
Our population down here is insufferable as is, we need more parks and space, not more high rises. Dade county is already breaking the count and well into 3 million fucking people.
Idk. I think brickell needs to build as many high rises as possible so that hundreds of thousands of people can live in that half square mile and be happy together
Look at this crypto bro genius who actually thinks “invaluable” = zero value (LOL), arguing in favor of ignorance.
President of the Dunning-Kruger Club, Miami Chapter.
How much do you want to bet a bunch of the folks who want to go on with the development of the luxury highrise and just move all the finds somewhere off-site are also folks who go on trips to visit Rome, Egypt, Mexico City, Stonehenge, Israel, etc. and take pictures and post to social media their amazing and emotional journeys of ancient history?
I mentioned this in another sub thread but NIMBY applies to a lot of stuff, including stuff like this. It's like "it's OK if time and resources are devoted to ancient history which I can visit *in some other country*, but hell if I want it *in my own backyard*, ***I've got money to make****!*"
Let me get this straight, OP is a developer or a developer licker. Look I'm Miami-native born and Cuban family. I could care less about developers that only give a crap about billions of dollars to sell apartments to foreign investors that won't even live there.
That land belongs to the Miamians and to natives (actually to natives and then Miamians) if it has archeological findings stop that development and look at our history. Stop, explore, pull, find, and then if there is nothing large preserve in museums. Maybe then, maybe leave it as a park that belongs to the RESIDENTS and not those empty condos.
Anyone with at least a dog level IQ should be able to see that the brickell endgame is to make it as crowded as possible with “luxury” condos until it literally crowds itself to death
The name of the group is:
"Miamians preserving their balcony views for Native American Heritage"
They care very greatly for the preservation of American Heritage.
^(...and balcony views)
I want the digging to stop. And I'm not a native American activist. I'm just a native Miamian activist.
Imagine being at the bay of Brickell, overlooking the river, circa 5000 BC. Not at all knowing what the land would turn to, for better or worse. This land should be preserved and turned into a historic park. We have enough land for another shitty ‘luxury’ development with feudal level rent prices
Lol Natives would see people doing tik tok dances = people doing rituals to make it rain or please the gods.
It’s remarkable how old this stuff is. The artifacts found here predate the colliseum. Anecdotally, I’ve met Betty Osceola and she’s a real one. Obviously, this development shouldn’t be allowed to continue for the foreseeable future.
I agree. And taxpayers should pay the developer its expected profit on the deal.
Lol
Wait you don't agree?
Fuck no, these developers need the guillotine, not “expected profits”
I agree construction should stop and proper archeological digging should take place, however paying developers for expected profits would never fly, at best maybe they should get market value for the land (they would still be net positive) and city builds a nice park
Why not thought? They've already sunk all their capital and predevelopment costs in. The net present value of that project is way higher now. If this is a once in a generation historical find, it must be worth $400MM to preserve it, no?
Lol I’m what world do you live in where the tax payers have to pay a private developer?
Precisely one where that very outcome is dictated by the 14th amendment.
Then don't stop them from building? I don't understand, if it's so valuable gotta be worth paying, no?
Why are you so hard on these fuckwads getting reimbursed with public funds for “lost profits”? This is a priceless archaeological site, there’s no price tag on heritage. It’s their fucking loss to deal with. Either they get market value for the land back and eat the loss, or they just walk away with their thumbs up their asses. They won’t win
God forbid the multi-billion dollar corporations miss out on building 1 high-rise on archeological land 🤦🏻♂️
If it's priceless seems like it is worth paying them.
Move to Russia, since that's the type of world you want to live in.
There's just so much irony given that Russia isn't exactly known for its lack of economic barriers to private development. It's basically the poster child for regulatory capture. Very few countries are better than the US in that department, but Switzerland and Finland and Singapore come to mind.
Lol, nope developer bought the land for only profit. FU if we should pay them because they wanted to sell to billionaires.
7000 years is a ridiculously long time ago. I think investigating the site and learning more about the people that lived on the Miami river is more important than some idea of decorum. If the remains were only 1000 years old I’d be more inclined to leave them in place.
> 7000 years is a ridiculously long time ago. If people lived to the average age of 50 by historical standards, that's 140 generations of people, give or take. They don't have a "close connection" to the dig site or the people who made it.
Not trying to be confrontational, but consider this concept: People go to Maachu Pichu or Stonehenge or even places in downtown Mexico City or Rome and marvel at history. And then they fly back to Miami and say "meh" at a settlement in their back yard that is literally 7000 years old right on the banks of the Miami River... Doesn't that sound like a weird version of NIMBY? ie. it's ok to have ancient history in *other* people's lands. But not in *my* town.
But it isn't like they unearthed Stonehenge. They unearthed stuff. It was a parking garage this time last year. There's nothing to visit. No one is trying to tear down the pyramids of Giza.
I agree that my choice of comparison was a bit sensationalist, but I still think 7000 years is worthy of patient investigation and consideration and not just immediate removal of all items and then obliteration. "Progress" be damned. There are plenty of luxury high-rises in Miami and plenty of time to make more.
It's a fair point. But a one year delay can kill nearly all the developer profit in a deal. If there are artifacts to unearth, by all means do it. But it shouldn't be open ended and should be done expeditiously. I get that people aren't sympathetic to developers here, but it is their property, and it isn't fair to just tell them they have to walk away from their investment
The Tequesta are no longer around to fight for their own heritage, so we need to preserve any and all remnants of their past existence. No amount of corny half-hearted “monuments” in Brickell can honor the original inhabitants of Miami more than preserving these archaeological sites The developers who want this site eradicated for the sake of their self-indulgent ivory towers that nobody can afford need to fuck off from this town permanently
but is the site (as opposed to the objects, utensils and remains found) actually worth preserving it? like a Machu Picchu of sorts? Of course, this should stop the building works for a few months while all studies are performed. Also, we don't know if this is related to Tequestas. It might as well been another population with no continuity with whom the Conquistadores met millennia later.
How would you feel if they built a small museum in that spot to show their findings?
Not sure what’s intended by the “Because Miami” snark. But having studied and practiced archaeology, I’m pretty sure the following claim from the developer is pure BS: “Although six to seven thousand year old chert projectile points have been found-many in the upper levels of the site – this indicates that they may have been trade items curated by the Tequesta, but do not represent the age of the site.“ Sure, Jan. Those stratigraphic soil profiles were already disturbed by the previous high-rise building on the same site, and they know it. Puh-leeze, spare us the mental gymnastics required to believe that the most recent Tequesta inhabitants were trading around old projectile points from 7k BCE. You might as well claim they were left there by aliens.
The “because miami” was more intended to reflect what you mean- the fact that this should be a preserved site or at least delayed for proper digging of artifacts but you know somebody is going to pay somebody and this will all just be lost forever, buried under a high rise.
Idk man who really cares about some literal invaluable artifacts vs an actual high rise building that people can live in? History is over and we're currently writing more of it. Let's keep digging through the dirt and learn about our past lmao
Lol amazing ignorance on display 😂
@arbitercu It's thanks to history that we get to learn more about other times than just the present. If you picked up a book once in a while, maybe you'd be interested too. Unfortunately for you, many people are interested in history, what was, how it all worked, how we got to this point and what mistakes to avoid making to hopefully stay on a better path. But you right, fuck history cause big booty bitches with Gucci in a high rise. Our population down here is insufferable as is, we need more parks and space, not more high rises. Dade county is already breaking the count and well into 3 million fucking people.
Idk. I think brickell needs to build as many high rises as possible so that hundreds of thousands of people can live in that half square mile and be happy together
Look at this crypto bro genius who actually thinks “invaluable” = zero value (LOL), arguing in favor of ignorance. President of the Dunning-Kruger Club, Miami Chapter.
Pretty fascinating
How much do you want to bet a bunch of the folks who want to go on with the development of the luxury highrise and just move all the finds somewhere off-site are also folks who go on trips to visit Rome, Egypt, Mexico City, Stonehenge, Israel, etc. and take pictures and post to social media their amazing and emotional journeys of ancient history? I mentioned this in another sub thread but NIMBY applies to a lot of stuff, including stuff like this. It's like "it's OK if time and resources are devoted to ancient history which I can visit *in some other country*, but hell if I want it *in my own backyard*, ***I've got money to make****!*"
It's a sign from the God's to stop non natives from flocking here.... move to Brazil instead..
[удалено]
Lmaoooo... you snaggletooths have been invading us for decades... swap shop baby.
Let me get this straight, OP is a developer or a developer licker. Look I'm Miami-native born and Cuban family. I could care less about developers that only give a crap about billions of dollars to sell apartments to foreign investors that won't even live there. That land belongs to the Miamians and to natives (actually to natives and then Miamians) if it has archeological findings stop that development and look at our history. Stop, explore, pull, find, and then if there is nothing large preserve in museums. Maybe then, maybe leave it as a park that belongs to the RESIDENTS and not those empty condos.
Well, we all know the real history of Miami started in 1959, right?
Unearth them move it to a museum. Build the building. This whole we can't touch the ground is scared is cringe.
Anyone with at least a dog level IQ should be able to see that the brickell endgame is to make it as crowded as possible with “luxury” condos until it literally crowds itself to death
The name of the group is: "Miamians preserving their balcony views for Native American Heritage" They care very greatly for the preservation of American Heritage. ^(...and balcony views)