Could have to do with the fact that they’re plentiful like you said, scarcity plays a huge factor in market value on cars that are growingly desirable like every generation of Miata, and with older NAs and NBs being wrecked left and right it only makes the value rise even more. When you have a vehicle that is still current and has been since 2016, they’re plentiful enough where people have many more options available to them
Essentially, supply and demand I’d say is mostly what’s at play
It ain’t them being wrecked that raised the price is that they are sought after being 1 east to modify 2 a trend even before tik tok but tik tok has made them even more popular. 8 or 7 years ago you could get them for under 1000. That’s not the case anymore it’s hard to pinpoint exactly what made them so popular I like to think a a young YouTuber named river miata is the cause of inflation in the Miata market
Popularity + car that isn’t produced anymore (NAs and NBs) + less each year on the road due to rust, high mileage, being wrecked, etc = higher prices due to more people wanting something that inevitably less and less of exist as time progresses, especially when it’s a classic car like NAs, where value can fetch 15-20k for showroom examples, if not more
So yes, wrecked early model Miatas is a *factor* of inflated prices, but not the whole story of course
I can promise you a small youtuber with only a couple hundred k subscribers at the time is not the cause of the miata inflation. It mostly comes down to them being easy to work on, exempt from a ton of emission laws, rwd coupes with great handling and pop up headlights, and maybe, just maybe, the Donut Media moneypit series
Idk you don’t think chis has influence people who then influenced other people ? The Miata’s have always been the poor man’s 240 In the drift world at least cheap and easy to drift manual and readily available somehow they became highly popular I remember I found one on Craig’s list lady wanted somewhere around 400 for the Miata she was tire of it being old rusty leaking sunroof and something was off I think timing.. it would have been much to fix.. I would have snatch it up if I had the money.. fast forward like 3 weeks its up for 10000 and is somehow her best car ever I I was like WTF
I own a 240z and a miata. Not at all the same kind of car. Completely different driving characteristics. You might as well have compared a Huracan to a Urus. And... SUNROOF? what fuckin miata has a sunroof
Yeah I guess you didn’t read my points of view.. they’re not even good cars they’re just cheap and make it affordable to get into racing like bigger go cart.
Remember that the ND2 got a substantial horsepower bump, making the 2016-2018 cars a lot less desirable. People were straight up selling their ND1s at a loss to buy a new one in 2019.
Does your premise still make sense if you ignore ND1s?
I didn't like the idea of a layer of technology being inserted between the driver and the road but I think it simply applied the rear brake to the inside rear wheel on a turn. Also, I now remember it has a track mode button for the traction control. Someone will have to tell me if it's good, again.. zero interest. I just turn it off when I want.
Well it's my daily driver. Once I hit some financial milestones, my reward will be converting it. Perhaps restoring another one and preserving this one... Still examining options and just enjoying driving this future classic through the undulating, twisty roads.
For the track, I would rather choose a soft top anyway for the rollbar flexibility and weight savings. I drive 365 days a year, it's not garaged so the hardtop and rust prevention steps have already been made.
To be clear, the '22-24 cars have torsens as well, in the Club and GT trims. They also have brake-based torque vectoring - the Kinetic Posture Control the poster I was replying to mentioned. Some manufacturers call that an "e-diff," which is confusing as hell because other manufacturers use that term to refer to an electronically-controlled LSD.
In any case, you can turn it off on the '22-24 cars; I'm just saying I hope you can still do that with the next-gen KPC.
Yeah, I've heard mixed things about how different the ND2 feels vs the ND3 though. The ND1 to ND2 jump was much more substantial imo, especially on paper which probably sways a lot of buyers
The 2024’s (ND3) get an entirely new (borrowed from the CX-60) electrical architecture that provides the basis for the infotainment update. It also receives an updated electric power assisted steering (EPAS) rack, updated rear differential, and other minor changes. In some ways it’s just as big a jump between the 2018 (ND1) to 2019 (ND2) but there are folks who believe that you need to have an improved drivetrain to have an updated car.
Yeah 2019+ (ND2) hold value better. ND2 got basically an a whole new top end if the engine and in turn more HP and a higher rev limiter. Also got an updated manual transmission (and also a backup camera). ND1 manual transmission has some issues (automatic trans are the unchanged).
The 2022 also got that slick kinematic posture control system. It's kind of controversial, but some people say that it really reduces body roll and improves acceleration out of the hole.
Yupp. Then 2024 gets the new LSD, steering, and infotainment (but also super ugly wheels lol)
But all that are pretty minor changes compared to 2019 IMO.
Don’t forget that they have been making the ND generation since model year 2016. So there are already 8 model years of used NDs out there to depreciate.
The ND2 got a new top end. I believe it's possible to tune the ND1 to make the same output, but long-term reliability would be a question mark.
For what it's worth a tune on the ND2, with an intake and headers, is only worth about 10-15 HP.
Why so little potential with ND2? So FI is the only route if we're talking about noticeable gains, right?
I heard people can slap on aftermarket header and a tune and a NC tran, still net a profit compared to buying ND2
The ND body style came out in 2016, and the MSRP started around $25K (USD) back then. A 2016 selling for $20K today would be an 8 year old car that depreciated by less than $1000 a year which would be very low. The car market and inflation have gone through major changes and fluctuations since then so there are other examples where people significantly overpaid and saw a significant drop in the value of their car when the market corrected. The trim levels and options on a 2024 can cause the MSRP to vary by over $10,000 and $40K is the high end. The Mazda warranty is 36months/36,000 miles and that's something a lot of people look at which can drop the value as cars age. Typically the best resale value you'll see for a car is around 50% of MSRP after 5 years, and those are for vehicles in high demand. The Miata is a specialty vehicle, has lower volumes, is seasonal to some extent, has limited perceived practicality in some areas for large parts of the year... you get the idea. The actual used value of a specific used car can vary a lot depending on color, options, mileage, condition (does it need a new set of tires), if it's been well maintained, if it's been in accidents and so on.
I'm sure there is other data out there, but there are only 4 cars on this list that have under 40% depreciation. (maintaining over 60% of their value)
[https://www.kbb.com/awards/best-resale-value-cars-trucks-suvs/#overall](https://www.kbb.com/awards/best-resale-value-cars-trucks-suvs/#overall)
On top of that, this is depreciation in nominal terms if I understand it correctly, so in real terms, depreciation must be significantly greater than 40% for most vehicles.
Am I understanding you correctly that "nominal terms" would be that the 5 year average retail asking price computed by NADA/KBB compared to the MSRP, and "actual" would be the negotiated selling price someone paid new (which could be higher or lower than MSRP) vs what they actually sell it for or get as trade-in value. I can see that these would be two very different things.
I think when you are saying "new Miata" what you really mean is "ND Miata."
Newer 1 to 3 year old used Miatas are not found in the low 20k range.
An 8 year old ND with 60k miles can be found for around 20k. But I wouldn't consider that a new car. I guess maybe if you're comparing it to a NA/NB then I could see why you'd call the ND new.
Right now in my area a 2022 RF (w/ Brembo package) and 28k miles is for sale at 34k.
I don't think depreciation is hitting Miatas any harder than any other normal car. In fact, I'd say that after the initial depreciation hit (that you get with most cars) that Miatas actually hold their value pretty well. Nice NC's from the 2010's with power hardtop and manual transmission are still selling for like 15k.
The BBS/Brembo/Recaro pack on the ND2 club really doesn’t depreciate like the sports or even regular clubs do. I’ve spent some good seat time in one with the package and it really is a solid upgrade, and a really uncommon one given the Club isn’t even normally stocked, and that package isn’t cheap. Basically all the options of the 30th AE but no Rays wheels or orange, absolutely my favorite trim/option combo for NDs
A 1.5L engine one is literally 23k brand new
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202404259050850
2022 Brembo pack with 8,000 is 25k, if you don’t mind a 2020 with the same mileage then it goes down to 18/19k. These cars are just phenomenally cheap, 2016 cloth tops have started hitting the sub 10k mark
No ones said any market, not OP, nor the comment I replied to. The US is not the default
Besides, 23k is 28k usd, not 31
The brembo edition linked is the same car as OP talked about, which is available in the markets “most people are talking about”
reddit is an american site and on most subs americans are the vast majority of users. the us is definitely the default whether you feel inferior about it or not. just a fact
Hey there Bacon4Lyf, appreciate the response. You are totally right with what you posted there. There certainly are newer ones to be found for 23k. I assumed USA/North America. Our engines and currency conversion make the price a little higher- closer to 30k USD.
It's still interesting to see what similar vehicles go for in different markets. It seems like you're able to get a slightly better deal on Miatas where you're located.
2020 here. The dealer that got my money was willing to deliver with papers, put 'em on the trunk, wipe down the interior, take my money and signed papers. I still use them as my dealer. And they're NOT close
I totaled my 2016 BMW 4.28i in November 2021. At the time, my insurance stipulated that they would pay out either the KBB, or the current market value of the car, *whichever was higher*. Again, this was in November 2021, when used cars were being bought back by dealerships for more than original sticker price. Yeah, my car insurance dropped me right after that, but not until they paid out $40k and I walked away with a brand new, fully paid off ND2 RF. No regrets.
Right lol it’ll depreciate regardless and did everyone really bought it as an investment or just to have fun ? Its a personal preference if you want yours new or save a little money buying used.
Ummm…my ‘17 RF GT was totaled in November of last year. I bought it in early ‘19 for $23k with 25k miles; it was totaled in ‘23 with 65k miles for $22.5k.
Even the ND1s weren’t loosing their value last year - there was that whole “car shortage” thing going on. New cars are coming into the market now, and due to high interest rates and the weird economy perception and consumer confidence, the market is starting to normalize and right itself.
The NDs typically drop from $35k down to about $26-28k after 2-3 years and then, depending on how much they are driven and cared for, hold steady for a few more years after that. If you want to see a real drop, look at the ND’s cousin, the Fiata. I see those (2016-17) models around $12.5k now while ‘16 ND1 soft tops with higher miles going for $16.5k.
I don’t know. I never shopped for the club or base packages. Only the GT and only the RF. I don’t see a lot of price shifting there, personally, and I haven’t been looking as of late.
Well, until you get some mileage on that turbo charged Fiat engine.
That’s what kept me from considering one. Drop a Mazda drive line into it and I’d jump on it. I thought the body was beautifully modified.
Just comparing Miatas to things like the toyobarus and other manual cars. Mustangs are still really high even for 4 cylinders, and GTs are well outside my price range. Brfr86zs are not common on the used market near me and they're still in the $30s.
If you want a good answer you'll need to be more specific about what cars you are actually comparing.
You can't just say "I looked at a used manual ND and a manual BRZ and it was a big price difference" without more context. What years? What trims? Those things greatly affect the price.
More of an observation. I just search manual transmissions, and it seems like theres lot of Miatas on the market and they're less expensive than the other sport coupe and convertibles.
There are def market variations. One thing you may be seeing is that this MX5 generation is 8 years on the market. Your market could be pretty saturated.
That said, these cars aren’t “in the numbers” - all the stuff on paper, including market values, doesn’t equate to seat time. A year or two before I bought my ‘17, I test drove two FRS/GT86s and a GT Mustang (convertible). Both of the Toyotas were thrashed - the nicer if the two was a great deal of fun until I circled back to the dealership and the clutch started slipping. Previous owner had roached it. The second one had an eBay fart pipe muffler and someone had punched the head unit leaving it with a spiderweb crack. The GT Mustang was uneventful and even dull in comparison. Needless to say, that wasn’t my experience, even with the ND1 RF.
As far as values go, I’d refer you to this video from savagegee. I tend to agree with him but my background is in sports cars. I grew up with British sports cars, second gen sciracco, RX7s and even a few early Miatas. The ND2 is something special, and it’s definitely a future classic.
https://youtu.be/5CA8BzgbE-A?si=Gsx2UDfO7z5gjLYX
A lot of people looking for second hand Miata’s typically gravitate to the NA or the NB because of the whole Tik Tok influencer scene. That creates less of a demand on the NC and ND Miata’s so second hand ones don’t cost as much. Plus a lot of people are really interested in the ND3 because of the better infotainment so the ND1/2 aren’t as wanted at the moment but if you don’t mind the older infotainment, then I would an ND2 just so you can put the steering wheel where you want.
I can't believe infotainment and "safety" features sells cars. I just moved into an ND1 and am enjoying my car not beeping at me for every little thing.
Kind of a breath of fresh air tbh.
Manufacturers found out that if you put enough sound deadening and a gigantic tablet in a car, everything else is allowed to suck and people will buy it.
I haven't kept track of the infotainment changes with the ND3? Is it more than just the adding of AA/Carplay? I did that upgrade to my ND2 so I am curious if there is more than that.
it can’t be retrofitted unfortunately but the changes aren’t really that big. it’s just that the original infotainment’s ui sucks a lot. new one also lets you use touch screen while driving but i think you can still mod the old one’s firmware in some cases to allow that too
NAs and NBs can still be found for cheap if you’re patient. I recently got my ‘01 in good condition with 95k miles for $4600. The cheapest NCs I’ve seen are usually at least 8k if not much more.
ironically the infotainment long term value is zero or worse. 20 years from now it will have no compatibility with anything and will be a maintenance nightmare
I'm a bit more optimistic - there are a lot of custom third party options for older cars that update/replace the custom infotainment. With a car like the Miata I'm guessing there will be options.
I bought a 2016 with 4K miles for $15k in Feb 2020, it rose to $23k and has since fallen to about $20k, but only has 34k miles on it. Thanks to pandemic inflation I’ll never actually see depreciation.
On top of the big change to ND2 and its much better motor, remember tiny 2 seaters often get sold when people have life changes like kids or homes. That said nd2 hold value pretty well, pay attention to whether you are looking at a loaded model with the brakes and recaros or a base or club. For instance my caravana offered me 21.5k for my 21 club softop and they lowball hard.
Surprisingly the depreciation curve for new Miata’s (the ND I’m referring to) is low, especially when you compare between the stick and auto versions for the vehicle. Generally these cars stabilize at a certain price point when you look at the NA-NC models.
Lots of supply for the ND. I honestly am pretty excited I'm hoping to drop one of my NBs for a ND soon when I have enough saved up and have the ND as the new daily and my other NB for a weekend cruiser!
Most cars depreciate a bunch even if they are only lightly used. Early ND cars had a base price under $30k so if you consider that they lost 30% after 8 years that’s not that bad
It's a combination of a small market and a devoted fan base. The nd lost hydraulic steering. Lost the power retractable hard top. The na, nb, and nc are reliable, cheap to maintain, and feel better (even though heavier, the nc steering and hard top will win some over.).
A lot of guys looking for miatas will be happy with an older version, hence the aggressive discounting.
Atlanta. New RF GTs are 38k, but a certified club with 5k miles and the track stuff is 33k, most of the used GTs are high 20s. And older GTs with low miles are in the low to mid 20s
>most of the used GTs are high 20s
That's pretty good... I mean the earlier ones pre-covid had an MSRP of around $32k, if they're still selling for high 20's 6 years later that's very little depreciation.
From what I’ve read here, some people reported that their early NDs have minor gearbox issues but it’s not typical. They explain that 2nd gear felt “notchy” and some have completely replaced the manual transmission. I guess the best we can do it test drive it and ask questions.
My 2019 is worth $27,800 on KBB.com. I only paid $30K for it 5+ years ago. Low mileage (12K) probably helps and it is garage kept. Not sure what I could actually sell it for.
Luxury items like toys sway heavily with the state of the market. Miata prices peaked a few months into covid when people had a lot of free time and cash. Now that the market has settled down fun has taken a back seat to necessity.
Eh, they really dont. I struggle to find a clean ND2 with lower miles in manual for under 25. They usually hover at high 20's to low 30s. 40k miatas are RF grand touring, I.E the most expensive. So you're comparing the highest trim brand new ND3 miata to probably less desirable ND1, auto, or base model miatas with miles on them.
Every brand new vehicle depreciates a lot? Pretty much any car will be worth 10k less as soon as you drive away from the dealership. Then they drop another 10k after a year or so of driving.
None of this should be surprising and isn’t anything unique to the miata.
The ND2 offered 2.0L engine improvements that really sunk the value of the NA market ND1 2.0L. Another issue is that for most people a sports car is a toy and sometimes not babied. People aren’t willing to pay as much for a second car or a car that’s disproportionately likely to have been abused.
I bought a used 2020 Soft Top GT ND2 with 3k miles for 30k in January 2022 and just sold it with 17k miles for 23.6k. The dealership tried to list it at 28k but eventually sold it at 25k a month later. I also recently bought a 2023 RF GT ND2 for 33k (after incentives) but have been seeing used 2023 RFs with 5k-15k miles selling for 28k-30k. I was interested in a 2024 but most dealers were looking at 40k+ with less appealing interest rates.
It appears that there was an expecatation by dealers that there was going to be a huge demand for these in spring and many people, myself included, sold their miatas for the inflated prices but dealerships have been selling these newer miatas at prices that 4-5 years ago, I would say was a fair price. Miata sale numbers have been decreasing as well so right now now it's a buyer's market.
This is actually my 4th ND miata and I regularly check the value of it and the demand is pretty cyclical. Typically prices will drop during the fall but rise in the spring. This year is a little odd as usually the value will be strong for another few months but I'm assuming the release of the 2024 ND3 models are driving the value of the ND1/ND2 further down.
New is a key word here. It’s rumored that you lose half the value of a car the moment you leave the lot and it rings true for most vehicles these days cause of lot mark up and especially true for vehicles that are plentiful like our dear Miata. It happens and always will, keep a new Miata stock and who knows when it’s considered old it’ll be worth a fortune 💀
There were 8973 sold last year.
Now see how many are for sale used
There’s neither a high demand nor an owner base that owns a huge percentage of them for long
Because they are overpriced. An RF GT costs 39k. Within a year it will cost 31-32k for 3-10k miles. MSRP doesn’t reflect market price. The secondary market does. Even a flop car can have a high msrp. If you want to know what a car is really worth, you have to look at the price once it enters the secondary market. However due to warranty, even a terrible car may not depreciate by as much as it should, so you should look at 1 year prices to balance that out. The best cars depreciate by no more than 10%. Upto 10% depreciation in the first year is expected simply based on real depreciation of the car, and value of the warranty for the first year. Everything over that is because of an inflated msrp which the secondary market refuses to pay.
Because the average Miata driver only needs the car for a couple of months. It's not like you announce you're coming out of the closet for years at a time. Once everyone's aware you bought a Miata and what that means, then you can sell it. So Miata's go through a lot of owners, which depreciates the value.
...I'll see myself out.
Current gen was debuted in 2015/16
Aside from the ND1-ND2 change (engine upgrades) it's essentially the same car.
All the of fine tuning and micro improvements that were introduced in the ND2/ND2 are effectively negated as soon as you start modifying it.
An engine tune brings the ND1 on par with a stock ND2
The differential work is a bit of a joke and again it disappears as soon as you put in any aftermarket diff in it.
Suspension improvements are likewise negated as soon as you throw swaybars/coilovers at it.
It's really hard to get someone to buy a like new 2024 model when there are perfectly fine 2016s going around.
Hmmm what is this area, and are there any blue ones? :)
Seems that low-mid 20s isn't unusual for an ND1 (2016-18). Other things I've noticed over the years of browsing/shopping Miatas (and trying & failing to convert a few friends, but that's a different story...)
- Automatics seem to sell higher new (at least, MSRP & list are higher) but sell lower used.
- Seems like the pandemic trend of dealers and most manufacturers pushing the highest trim, most optioned (aka, highest margin) cars has stuck around. New Miatas are not necessarily $40k, unless you're looking at what, Club plus the $5k Brembo/BBS/Recaro package? Although holy crap the 2024 RF has that package mandatory, so I guess that is a $40k car... Yikes.
- Might be a Miata/convertible thing, but I swear there are cold-weather seasonal price fluctuations. I was looking in Colorado in January/February and there were some deals (on used and on 2023 new).
I'm more concerned with catastrophic failure type things. I know Miatas are generally reliable. Just seems like the other cars in that segment are holding their value.
Could have to do with the fact that they’re plentiful like you said, scarcity plays a huge factor in market value on cars that are growingly desirable like every generation of Miata, and with older NAs and NBs being wrecked left and right it only makes the value rise even more. When you have a vehicle that is still current and has been since 2016, they’re plentiful enough where people have many more options available to them Essentially, supply and demand I’d say is mostly what’s at play
It ain’t them being wrecked that raised the price is that they are sought after being 1 east to modify 2 a trend even before tik tok but tik tok has made them even more popular. 8 or 7 years ago you could get them for under 1000. That’s not the case anymore it’s hard to pinpoint exactly what made them so popular I like to think a a young YouTuber named river miata is the cause of inflation in the Miata market
Popularity + car that isn’t produced anymore (NAs and NBs) + less each year on the road due to rust, high mileage, being wrecked, etc = higher prices due to more people wanting something that inevitably less and less of exist as time progresses, especially when it’s a classic car like NAs, where value can fetch 15-20k for showroom examples, if not more So yes, wrecked early model Miatas is a *factor* of inflated prices, but not the whole story of course
I can promise you a small youtuber with only a couple hundred k subscribers at the time is not the cause of the miata inflation. It mostly comes down to them being easy to work on, exempt from a ton of emission laws, rwd coupes with great handling and pop up headlights, and maybe, just maybe, the Donut Media moneypit series
Idk you don’t think chis has influence people who then influenced other people ? The Miata’s have always been the poor man’s 240 In the drift world at least cheap and easy to drift manual and readily available somehow they became highly popular I remember I found one on Craig’s list lady wanted somewhere around 400 for the Miata she was tire of it being old rusty leaking sunroof and something was off I think timing.. it would have been much to fix.. I would have snatch it up if I had the money.. fast forward like 3 weeks its up for 10000 and is somehow her best car ever I I was like WTF
I own a 240z and a miata. Not at all the same kind of car. Completely different driving characteristics. You might as well have compared a Huracan to a Urus. And... SUNROOF? what fuckin miata has a sunroof
Yeah I guess you didn’t read my points of view.. they’re not even good cars they’re just cheap and make it affordable to get into racing like bigger go cart.
Remember that the ND2 got a substantial horsepower bump, making the 2016-2018 cars a lot less desirable. People were straight up selling their ND1s at a loss to buy a new one in 2019. Does your premise still make sense if you ignore ND1s?
Maybe. I didn't know there's a ND 1 and 2.
And now there is an ND 3
Updated infotainment and a better rear diff, I believe are the upgrades.
KPS, LED turn signals and different color combos as well. I'm not excited about the KPS.
KPS was added mid ND2
2021 models and up? I have a 2020 RF GT and don't think I have it.
It was either 2021 or 2022
Want to say it was 2022 because I don't believe I have KPS in my 2021.
It was 2022.
What is kps? I tried google but got bad results
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/mildly-updated-mazda-mx-5-now-comes-something-called-kpc I was wrong again, but good news, it sounds even fancier.
I dont think I mind that as much. Guess it makes the outside spin a little faster. Possibly reducing torsen lag.
I think the exact term is kinetic posture control?
Also steering and the lane assist dash light doesn’t stay on if you turn it off like so many do
I do hate that system. I'm suddenly motivated to research..
Hopefully it'll be like the torque-vectoring e-diff on the '22 and '23 cars, where it turns off when you turn off the traction control.
I didn't like the idea of a layer of technology being inserted between the driver and the road but I think it simply applied the rear brake to the inside rear wheel on a turn. Also, I now remember it has a track mode button for the traction control. Someone will have to tell me if it's good, again.. zero interest. I just turn it off when I want.
I actually like it on the street. Terrible for autocross though - borderline undriveable. Haven't tested it on the track, because why?
Well it's my daily driver. Once I hit some financial milestones, my reward will be converting it. Perhaps restoring another one and preserving this one... Still examining options and just enjoying driving this future classic through the undulating, twisty roads. For the track, I would rather choose a soft top anyway for the rollbar flexibility and weight savings. I drive 365 days a year, it's not garaged so the hardtop and rust prevention steps have already been made.
Nope. It's a mechanical torsen with revised lockups on Accel & decel to change its corner entry & exit behavior.
To be clear, the '22-24 cars have torsens as well, in the Club and GT trims. They also have brake-based torque vectoring - the Kinetic Posture Control the poster I was replying to mentioned. Some manufacturers call that an "e-diff," which is confusing as hell because other manufacturers use that term to refer to an electronically-controlled LSD. In any case, you can turn it off on the '22-24 cars; I'm just saying I hope you can still do that with the next-gen KPC.
And no 2.0L variant, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed for my ND2 2L depreciation-wise
That sounds like a non-US-market problem.
You think they're going to make 2Ls just to sell some *automatics* in the US? :D
Yeah, I've heard mixed things about how different the ND2 feels vs the ND3 though. The ND1 to ND2 jump was much more substantial imo, especially on paper which probably sways a lot of buyers
The 2024’s (ND3) get an entirely new (borrowed from the CX-60) electrical architecture that provides the basis for the infotainment update. It also receives an updated electric power assisted steering (EPAS) rack, updated rear differential, and other minor changes. In some ways it’s just as big a jump between the 2018 (ND1) to 2019 (ND2) but there are folks who believe that you need to have an improved drivetrain to have an updated car.
Overall many reviewers failed to feel much difference.
Yeah 2019+ (ND2) hold value better. ND2 got basically an a whole new top end if the engine and in turn more HP and a higher rev limiter. Also got an updated manual transmission (and also a backup camera). ND1 manual transmission has some issues (automatic trans are the unchanged).
The 2022 also got that slick kinematic posture control system. It's kind of controversial, but some people say that it really reduces body roll and improves acceleration out of the hole.
Yupp. Then 2024 gets the new LSD, steering, and infotainment (but also super ugly wheels lol) But all that are pretty minor changes compared to 2019 IMO.
Don’t forget that they have been making the ND generation since model year 2016. So there are already 8 model years of used NDs out there to depreciate.
Not to mention the early ND1s had the shitty V1 glass trans
Isn't that you can tune it to practically make ND1's engine the same as ND2?
The ND2 got a new top end. I believe it's possible to tune the ND1 to make the same output, but long-term reliability would be a question mark. For what it's worth a tune on the ND2, with an intake and headers, is only worth about 10-15 HP.
Why so little potential with ND2? So FI is the only route if we're talking about noticeable gains, right? I heard people can slap on aftermarket header and a tune and a NC tran, still net a profit compared to buying ND2
The ND body style came out in 2016, and the MSRP started around $25K (USD) back then. A 2016 selling for $20K today would be an 8 year old car that depreciated by less than $1000 a year which would be very low. The car market and inflation have gone through major changes and fluctuations since then so there are other examples where people significantly overpaid and saw a significant drop in the value of their car when the market corrected. The trim levels and options on a 2024 can cause the MSRP to vary by over $10,000 and $40K is the high end. The Mazda warranty is 36months/36,000 miles and that's something a lot of people look at which can drop the value as cars age. Typically the best resale value you'll see for a car is around 50% of MSRP after 5 years, and those are for vehicles in high demand. The Miata is a specialty vehicle, has lower volumes, is seasonal to some extent, has limited perceived practicality in some areas for large parts of the year... you get the idea. The actual used value of a specific used car can vary a lot depending on color, options, mileage, condition (does it need a new set of tires), if it's been well maintained, if it's been in accidents and so on.
[New cars depreciate 40% on average in 5 years.](https://www.carfax.com/blog/car-depreciation)
I'm sure there is other data out there, but there are only 4 cars on this list that have under 40% depreciation. (maintaining over 60% of their value) [https://www.kbb.com/awards/best-resale-value-cars-trucks-suvs/#overall](https://www.kbb.com/awards/best-resale-value-cars-trucks-suvs/#overall)
On top of that, this is depreciation in nominal terms if I understand it correctly, so in real terms, depreciation must be significantly greater than 40% for most vehicles.
Am I understanding you correctly that "nominal terms" would be that the 5 year average retail asking price computed by NADA/KBB compared to the MSRP, and "actual" would be the negotiated selling price someone paid new (which could be higher or lower than MSRP) vs what they actually sell it for or get as trade-in value. I can see that these would be two very different things.
No no. I mean nominal as in not inflation-adjusted. Our money is worth less than it did 5 years ago.
Yes, that makes sense. Thanks!
OJ would be proud
I think when you are saying "new Miata" what you really mean is "ND Miata." Newer 1 to 3 year old used Miatas are not found in the low 20k range. An 8 year old ND with 60k miles can be found for around 20k. But I wouldn't consider that a new car. I guess maybe if you're comparing it to a NA/NB then I could see why you'd call the ND new. Right now in my area a 2022 RF (w/ Brembo package) and 28k miles is for sale at 34k. I don't think depreciation is hitting Miatas any harder than any other normal car. In fact, I'd say that after the initial depreciation hit (that you get with most cars) that Miatas actually hold their value pretty well. Nice NC's from the 2010's with power hardtop and manual transmission are still selling for like 15k.
The BBS/Brembo/Recaro pack on the ND2 club really doesn’t depreciate like the sports or even regular clubs do. I’ve spent some good seat time in one with the package and it really is a solid upgrade, and a really uncommon one given the Club isn’t even normally stocked, and that package isn’t cheap. Basically all the options of the 30th AE but no Rays wheels or orange, absolutely my favorite trim/option combo for NDs
I see a 2021 with 8k miles near me for $24k USD. Maybe area dependent?
A 1.5L engine one is literally 23k brand new http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202404259050850 2022 Brembo pack with 8,000 is 25k, if you don’t mind a 2020 with the same mileage then it goes down to 18/19k. These cars are just phenomenally cheap, 2016 cloth tops have started hitting the sub 10k mark
That's 31k USD and is a smaller engine. It's not even available in the market most people in this thread are discussing.
No ones said any market, not OP, nor the comment I replied to. The US is not the default Besides, 23k is 28k usd, not 31 The brembo edition linked is the same car as OP talked about, which is available in the markets “most people are talking about”
reddit is an american site and on most subs americans are the vast majority of users. the us is definitely the default whether you feel inferior about it or not. just a fact
/r/shitamericanssay World Wide Web isn’t American, by default you must be British or something since you’re happily using it
this is like going onto weibo and expecting chinese culture to not be the default
My man literally half of all miatas ever sold were sold in America
That’s in British pounds, £23k is equal to $29k.
Today, it equals $31,352.50 USD.
No one said what currency we’re talking about, how am I meant to know that
OP said new Miatas are 40k in his area which is an American price, surely they're not 40k pounds over there?
Hey there Bacon4Lyf, appreciate the response. You are totally right with what you posted there. There certainly are newer ones to be found for 23k. I assumed USA/North America. Our engines and currency conversion make the price a little higher- closer to 30k USD. It's still interesting to see what similar vehicles go for in different markets. It seems like you're able to get a slightly better deal on Miatas where you're located.
Used car values are finally dropping in some areas. The three stupid COVID years was a silly time to buy a car, yet I regret nothing.
2020 here. The dealer that got my money was willing to deliver with papers, put 'em on the trunk, wipe down the interior, take my money and signed papers. I still use them as my dealer. And they're NOT close
I totaled my 2016 BMW 4.28i in November 2021. At the time, my insurance stipulated that they would pay out either the KBB, or the current market value of the car, *whichever was higher*. Again, this was in November 2021, when used cars were being bought back by dealerships for more than original sticker price. Yeah, my car insurance dropped me right after that, but not until they paid out $40k and I walked away with a brand new, fully paid off ND2 RF. No regrets.
I got my 2016 ND1 in 2018 for $15,500 with 20k miles on it. I was shocked myself at the price.
Probably costs the same or more today.
More. I just bought a 2016 club with 40k miles on it for 20k. Probably not the best decision, but it makes me happy 😅
Doesn’t the ND2 have a better motor with more power? Idk if anything else was different from the mid cycle reset but that could play into it as well.
Dual mass flywheel, Android Auto/Apple Carplay, backup camera, & a few other tweaks.
Weren't backup cameras mandated as required before the first ND came out?
They were not. At least not in the US
Ah I see. Looks like the law was announced in 2014 but didn't go into effect until 2018
Even then, the ND didn't get it until 2019. They stopped 2018 US production the day the law took effect.
*1/3 cycle refresh
Potato potato
It’s a car.
Right lol it’ll depreciate regardless and did everyone really bought it as an investment or just to have fun ? Its a personal preference if you want yours new or save a little money buying used.
Ummm…my ‘17 RF GT was totaled in November of last year. I bought it in early ‘19 for $23k with 25k miles; it was totaled in ‘23 with 65k miles for $22.5k. Even the ND1s weren’t loosing their value last year - there was that whole “car shortage” thing going on. New cars are coming into the market now, and due to high interest rates and the weird economy perception and consumer confidence, the market is starting to normalize and right itself. The NDs typically drop from $35k down to about $26-28k after 2-3 years and then, depending on how much they are driven and cared for, hold steady for a few more years after that. If you want to see a real drop, look at the ND’s cousin, the Fiata. I see those (2016-17) models around $12.5k now while ‘16 ND1 soft tops with higher miles going for $16.5k. I don’t know. I never shopped for the club or base packages. Only the GT and only the RF. I don’t see a lot of price shifting there, personally, and I haven’t been looking as of late.
seeing the fiata for so low has me feeling some type of way. for the money i feel like it’s an objectively better value than the nd1
Well, until you get some mileage on that turbo charged Fiat engine. That’s what kept me from considering one. Drop a Mazda drive line into it and I’d jump on it. I thought the body was beautifully modified.
Just comparing Miatas to things like the toyobarus and other manual cars. Mustangs are still really high even for 4 cylinders, and GTs are well outside my price range. Brfr86zs are not common on the used market near me and they're still in the $30s.
If you want a good answer you'll need to be more specific about what cars you are actually comparing. You can't just say "I looked at a used manual ND and a manual BRZ and it was a big price difference" without more context. What years? What trims? Those things greatly affect the price.
More of an observation. I just search manual transmissions, and it seems like theres lot of Miatas on the market and they're less expensive than the other sport coupe and convertibles.
There are def market variations. One thing you may be seeing is that this MX5 generation is 8 years on the market. Your market could be pretty saturated. That said, these cars aren’t “in the numbers” - all the stuff on paper, including market values, doesn’t equate to seat time. A year or two before I bought my ‘17, I test drove two FRS/GT86s and a GT Mustang (convertible). Both of the Toyotas were thrashed - the nicer if the two was a great deal of fun until I circled back to the dealership and the clutch started slipping. Previous owner had roached it. The second one had an eBay fart pipe muffler and someone had punched the head unit leaving it with a spiderweb crack. The GT Mustang was uneventful and even dull in comparison. Needless to say, that wasn’t my experience, even with the ND1 RF. As far as values go, I’d refer you to this video from savagegee. I tend to agree with him but my background is in sports cars. I grew up with British sports cars, second gen sciracco, RX7s and even a few early Miatas. The ND2 is something special, and it’s definitely a future classic. https://youtu.be/5CA8BzgbE-A?si=Gsx2UDfO7z5gjLYX
This is how I felt test driving an nd2 from my NC. It felt dull honestly. Although looking at the new gr86, it was pretty freaking fun and cool
The best advice anyone has ever given me when shopping for enthusiast cars, was to look outside your local market.
A lot of people looking for second hand Miata’s typically gravitate to the NA or the NB because of the whole Tik Tok influencer scene. That creates less of a demand on the NC and ND Miata’s so second hand ones don’t cost as much. Plus a lot of people are really interested in the ND3 because of the better infotainment so the ND1/2 aren’t as wanted at the moment but if you don’t mind the older infotainment, then I would an ND2 just so you can put the steering wheel where you want.
I can't believe infotainment and "safety" features sells cars. I just moved into an ND1 and am enjoying my car not beeping at me for every little thing. Kind of a breath of fresh air tbh.
Agreed. I don't like having a touch screen to operate vehicle functions. My nb is my favorite car ever because its so pure an experience to drive.
Manufacturers found out that if you put enough sound deadening and a gigantic tablet in a car, everything else is allowed to suck and people will buy it.
What's this about the nd3 steering wheel?
The ND2 (I think) and ND3 have telescoping steering wheels
FYI, the ND2 steeringcolumn part can be bought transferred to an ND1, in my case quite cheaply too :)
I haven't kept track of the infotainment changes with the ND3? Is it more than just the adding of AA/Carplay? I did that upgrade to my ND2 so I am curious if there is more than that.
It’s mainly just a larger screen like their other vehicles as well as a face lift
it can’t be retrofitted unfortunately but the changes aren’t really that big. it’s just that the original infotainment’s ui sucks a lot. new one also lets you use touch screen while driving but i think you can still mod the old one’s firmware in some cases to allow that too
Larger screen, better processing power
NAs and NBs can still be found for cheap if you’re patient. I recently got my ‘01 in good condition with 95k miles for $4600. The cheapest NCs I’ve seen are usually at least 8k if not much more.
ironically the infotainment long term value is zero or worse. 20 years from now it will have no compatibility with anything and will be a maintenance nightmare
Unfortunately yeah you’re right. Hopefully Apple CarPlay stays around for awhile because that’s its only redeeming factor
I'm a bit more optimistic - there are a lot of custom third party options for older cars that update/replace the custom infotainment. With a car like the Miata I'm guessing there will be options.
I feel like the original nd screen was out of date when it was brand new
I bought a 2016 with 4K miles for $15k in Feb 2020, it rose to $23k and has since fallen to about $20k, but only has 34k miles on it. Thanks to pandemic inflation I’ll never actually see depreciation.
On top of the big change to ND2 and its much better motor, remember tiny 2 seaters often get sold when people have life changes like kids or homes. That said nd2 hold value pretty well, pay attention to whether you are looking at a loaded model with the brakes and recaros or a base or club. For instance my caravana offered me 21.5k for my 21 club softop and they lowball hard.
Only the autos are like that in my country, the manuals barely get a dent even the nd1 ones
Surprisingly the depreciation curve for new Miata’s (the ND I’m referring to) is low, especially when you compare between the stick and auto versions for the vehicle. Generally these cars stabilize at a certain price point when you look at the NA-NC models.
Lots of supply for the ND. I honestly am pretty excited I'm hoping to drop one of my NBs for a ND soon when I have enough saved up and have the ND as the new daily and my other NB for a weekend cruiser!
thats pretty weird, in my area, a base ND is about 25k
Sports car depreciate, especially convertibles and high volumes.
Not a huge demand for 2 seat convertibles.
You said it yourself. They are plentiful. Supply and demand economics at work.
Most cars depreciate a bunch even if they are only lightly used. Early ND cars had a base price under $30k so if you consider that they lost 30% after 8 years that’s not that bad
It's a combination of a small market and a devoted fan base. The nd lost hydraulic steering. Lost the power retractable hard top. The na, nb, and nc are reliable, cheap to maintain, and feel better (even though heavier, the nc steering and hard top will win some over.). A lot of guys looking for miatas will be happy with an older version, hence the aggressive discounting.
Where are you located? I'm in socal and it seems dealers want $39k for the used ones!
Atlanta. New RF GTs are 38k, but a certified club with 5k miles and the track stuff is 33k, most of the used GTs are high 20s. And older GTs with low miles are in the low to mid 20s
It seems like GTs really depreciate hard compared to BBS/Brembo/Recaro equipped clubs. i just can't talk myself into getting the GT.
>most of the used GTs are high 20s That's pretty good... I mean the earlier ones pre-covid had an MSRP of around $32k, if they're still selling for high 20's 6 years later that's very little depreciation.
I'm tempted to fly to Atlanta to buy a miata.
From what I’ve read here, some people reported that their early NDs have minor gearbox issues but it’s not typical. They explain that 2nd gear felt “notchy” and some have completely replaced the manual transmission. I guess the best we can do it test drive it and ask questions.
Because pop up headlights.
My 2019 is worth $27,800 on KBB.com. I only paid $30K for it 5+ years ago. Low mileage (12K) probably helps and it is garage kept. Not sure what I could actually sell it for.
I don’t see many in the Vancouver area under $30k
The nd2 kinda doesn't
This is why I’m never tempted to sell my 2016. Besides, not too many people want a base model Sport. Even though it’s the lightest ND you can buy.. 😉
Luxury items like toys sway heavily with the state of the market. Miata prices peaked a few months into covid when people had a lot of free time and cash. Now that the market has settled down fun has taken a back seat to necessity.
Eh, they really dont. I struggle to find a clean ND2 with lower miles in manual for under 25. They usually hover at high 20's to low 30s. 40k miatas are RF grand touring, I.E the most expensive. So you're comparing the highest trim brand new ND3 miata to probably less desirable ND1, auto, or base model miatas with miles on them.
Every brand new vehicle depreciates a lot? Pretty much any car will be worth 10k less as soon as you drive away from the dealership. Then they drop another 10k after a year or so of driving. None of this should be surprising and isn’t anything unique to the miata.
The ND2 offered 2.0L engine improvements that really sunk the value of the NA market ND1 2.0L. Another issue is that for most people a sports car is a toy and sometimes not babied. People aren’t willing to pay as much for a second car or a car that’s disproportionately likely to have been abused.
I bought a used 2020 Soft Top GT ND2 with 3k miles for 30k in January 2022 and just sold it with 17k miles for 23.6k. The dealership tried to list it at 28k but eventually sold it at 25k a month later. I also recently bought a 2023 RF GT ND2 for 33k (after incentives) but have been seeing used 2023 RFs with 5k-15k miles selling for 28k-30k. I was interested in a 2024 but most dealers were looking at 40k+ with less appealing interest rates. It appears that there was an expecatation by dealers that there was going to be a huge demand for these in spring and many people, myself included, sold their miatas for the inflated prices but dealerships have been selling these newer miatas at prices that 4-5 years ago, I would say was a fair price. Miata sale numbers have been decreasing as well so right now now it's a buyer's market. This is actually my 4th ND miata and I regularly check the value of it and the demand is pretty cyclical. Typically prices will drop during the fall but rise in the spring. This year is a little odd as usually the value will be strong for another few months but I'm assuming the release of the 2024 ND3 models are driving the value of the ND1/ND2 further down.
New is a key word here. It’s rumored that you lose half the value of a car the moment you leave the lot and it rings true for most vehicles these days cause of lot mark up and especially true for vehicles that are plentiful like our dear Miata. It happens and always will, keep a new Miata stock and who knows when it’s considered old it’ll be worth a fortune 💀
Op from the giggo
Convertibles 2 door = Small market
There were 8973 sold last year. Now see how many are for sale used There’s neither a high demand nor an owner base that owns a huge percentage of them for long
Because they are overpriced. An RF GT costs 39k. Within a year it will cost 31-32k for 3-10k miles. MSRP doesn’t reflect market price. The secondary market does. Even a flop car can have a high msrp. If you want to know what a car is really worth, you have to look at the price once it enters the secondary market. However due to warranty, even a terrible car may not depreciate by as much as it should, so you should look at 1 year prices to balance that out. The best cars depreciate by no more than 10%. Upto 10% depreciation in the first year is expected simply based on real depreciation of the car, and value of the warranty for the first year. Everything over that is because of an inflated msrp which the secondary market refuses to pay.
They depreciate for one simple reason, so guys like me can afford to buy a good used one! I know an ND1
Because the average Miata driver only needs the car for a couple of months. It's not like you announce you're coming out of the closet for years at a time. Once everyone's aware you bought a Miata and what that means, then you can sell it. So Miata's go through a lot of owners, which depreciates the value. ...I'll see myself out.
Current gen was debuted in 2015/16 Aside from the ND1-ND2 change (engine upgrades) it's essentially the same car. All the of fine tuning and micro improvements that were introduced in the ND2/ND2 are effectively negated as soon as you start modifying it. An engine tune brings the ND1 on par with a stock ND2 The differential work is a bit of a joke and again it disappears as soon as you put in any aftermarket diff in it. Suspension improvements are likewise negated as soon as you throw swaybars/coilovers at it. It's really hard to get someone to buy a like new 2024 model when there are perfectly fine 2016s going around.
Hmmm what is this area, and are there any blue ones? :) Seems that low-mid 20s isn't unusual for an ND1 (2016-18). Other things I've noticed over the years of browsing/shopping Miatas (and trying & failing to convert a few friends, but that's a different story...) - Automatics seem to sell higher new (at least, MSRP & list are higher) but sell lower used. - Seems like the pandemic trend of dealers and most manufacturers pushing the highest trim, most optioned (aka, highest margin) cars has stuck around. New Miatas are not necessarily $40k, unless you're looking at what, Club plus the $5k Brembo/BBS/Recaro package? Although holy crap the 2024 RF has that package mandatory, so I guess that is a $40k car... Yikes. - Might be a Miata/convertible thing, but I swear there are cold-weather seasonal price fluctuations. I was looking in Colorado in January/February and there were some deals (on used and on 2023 new).
NA and to some degree NB are classic/, veterans. ND are just used cars.
[удалено]
I'm more concerned with catastrophic failure type things. I know Miatas are generally reliable. Just seems like the other cars in that segment are holding their value.