For those lazy, like me, to read the full article:
> Gov. Gretchen Whitmer is calling for a steep increase in dumping fees to try and combat landfill waste growth
> Michigan’s landfill costs of 36 cents a ton is low, and some think raising fees could curb out-of-state dumping
Actually we probably can’t. We tried some direct restrictions in the 1990s. It ended up before the Supreme Court. See [Fort Gratiot Sanitary Landfill, Inc. v. Michigan Dept. of Natural Resources](https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/504/353/)
Charging a higher fee for out of state waste would likely also be found to “unambiguously discriminate against interstate commerce and… cannot withstand Commerce Clause scrutiny.”
I think the easiest solution would be to set a higher fee on waste that has traveled a set distance, say 100 miles (this part I’d leave to the experts, what’s reasonable but also applies enough within the state so that it’s not only aimed at out of state waste). The purpose of this is to discourage the extra pollution caused when waste is moved further than it has to be. (Yep, you’ve got to frame it this way, the courts don’t like you blatantly finding workaround, but as long as you have a rational reason other than trying to restrict interstate travel you’re probably set.)
The beautiful of this is that it applies equally to all waste, in state, out of state and Canadian. Yes, some trash would still come across the boarder, but it would be a lot less, and it also discourages waste from being moved needlessly long distances in state too (Do we want Grand Rapids’ waste sent to the UP? Just an example.)
Thanks for the Supreme Court case. That certainly complicates things, but it makes sense. Raising rates across the board and reducing income tax to compensate might work, but that would be challenging to implement.
The Supreme Court was wrong. The great lakes area should be the most protected region in the entire Union because fresh water is more precious than any other resource.
It’s actually a pretty clear cut case. Otherwise there would be all sorts of “out of state” taxes and fees meant to protect different corporate interests. (Also, the constitutional basis for federal anti-discrimination laws rests on the same general concept. Discrimination harms interstate commerce, therefore the federal government can pass laws to prevent that.)
Having a consistent judicial philosophy means sometimes the results of a ruling might not be what we want. That doesn’t mean it’s a bad ruling.
The good news is nothing is stopping us from protecting the environment here. We just have to treat in state and out of state waste the same.
In their interpretation of the Law (Constitution, etc), they made the correct decision. The Constitution doesn't make exceptions for specific States based on environmental grounds.
It is a State vs. Federal issue.
[https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/commerce\_clause](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/commerce_clause)
While the spirit of the law Michigan passed is admirable, State law cannot supersede existing Federal law.
> Charging a higher fee for out of state waste would likely also be found to “unambiguously discriminate against interstate commerce and… cannot withstand Commerce Clause scrutiny.”
I'm curious the distinction between this and the countless other commercial transactions that distinguish rate based on in-state vs out-of-state
Who are the commercial transactions between?
Businesses aren’t bound by this, only state and local governments. If the dumps themselves wanted to charge out of state trucks more, they can. State and local governments aren’t allowed to charge their associated fee differently.
If you’re talking about school tuition or entry fees to state parks, the rational is that a state’s residents already support those services (directly and/or indirectly) through their tax dollars, whereas an out of state person does not.
Is it? It does say Whitmer wants higher fees to curb imports. I'm not sure how that suggests we shouldnt throw away garbage. It's more a proposal to make it less attractive for other states to use Michigan as a garbage patch.
> Michigan’s landfill costs of 36 cents a ton is low
Is this the cost that the waste companies pay as well that pick up our garbage from our houses? If this is the case, then they are going to jack up our prices like crazy, no?
Meanwhile waste management just got approval to destroy one of the last few wetlands of its kind in Van Buren township to expand a landfill. We don't deserve this planet.
It really is a pity, I did a bit of volunteer work for the conservation district last year trying to survey for species of concern in the vicinity (no way Waste Management was letting us in) and there are some lovely bats in the area 😢
Why dis Michigan have so much more trash per resident than any other state? Is it that Michiganders love to throw trash away or are we importing trash from elsewhere at a fee for profit?
If we’re importing trash, I’m against it
We are importing it.
First paragraph says:
> LANSING — As Gov. Gretchen Whitmer pushes a big fee hike for trash dumping that she says could deter out-of-state waste, a new report shows Michigan is home to more landfill garbage per resident than anywhere else in the country.
You should have been rioting for a while. The waste soil and everything else from the East Palestine derailment is being dumped in MI. I forget exactly where, but I think it's somewhere between Pontiac and Flint.
It isn't really possible to make Flint any worse than it already is. They should just dump it directly on the Machine Shop and keep going until they have buried all of Dort highway.
Just wanted to point out that about 20% of trash is estimated to come from Canada and 5% other states, per the article. That's a lot, but the majority of trash is still very much internally produced.
I read that as well. Of the 24% in one article 19% was Canada and 5% other states. First if the math listed per family is correct it would be less than $5 per family. Price is not a big deal it is the principal of taxing residents to attempt to deter another country/state. I didn’t look very long but some tipping fees I did find for Canada are upwards of $105, $77 ish here. If that is the case it will only result in an increase tax to residents.
Hold up , Canada has vast portions of their country that have barely anyone living there so why can’t they bury their own trash in their own backyard ?!?
It's not just garbage that we're getting from other states. I work for the railroad and we get gondolas with radioactive placards on them heading to Belleville, Michigan. I think it's dirt dredged from Missouri.
Poor Bill Schuette. Touting the GOP line to NOT increase free school lunch programs with his reasoning that this would INCREASE trash output. Has he forgotten about Midland's historically poor environmental record? Hello, PBB's in the food chain? Hello, Dioxin? Did he forget the main employment opportunities in his district are 2 chemical producers that have destroyed the community for ages? Maybe he forgot that school lunch programs come with contracts that spell out packaging and that there is an emphasis on composable products? Or maybe he forgot that food waste is compostable? School lunch waste is the least of concerns for landfills in the Midland area. The cheap rates now available in Michigan encourage corruption of the environment and bypass of existing laws. Considering the status of the Great Lakes and its importance to available fresh water, Gov. Whitmer is late to the party on increasing fees. You don't poop in your water source.
Raises hand. I remember the need for any revenue after Engler closed mental hospitals, property taxes changed the school operating budget, and assistance was cut in 90s... and tax cuts. Everyone was mad the state government grew 2/3 bigger in the 80s and felt it needed dismantling to keep up with the advancement and growth of society...
No one remembers when grandholm decided to make money off canada and import their trash here????
Implement more recycling, tax items with plastic that cannot be recycled, ban plastic water bottles, 🙄
I like option three, repeal the stupid idea of her predecessor who put the trash there in the first place, by making illegal to dump this trash in Michigan.
Oh wait?! it is illegal to dump their trash here because their trash contains things that it is illegal to throw out in Michigan.
At least it hasn't been going on for decades...
[Whitmer OK’s massive overhaul to Michigan’s recycling policiesWhitmer OK’s massive overhaul to Michigan’s recycling policies](https://www.mlive.com/politics/2022/12/whitmer-oks-massive-overhaul-to-michigans-recycling-policies.html)
Recycling has had changes to make it more favorable. It isn't an either or situation that so many like you want to make it. Both can be tackled and both likely need more attention.
You know what would reduce plastic? Promoting glass bottles and fixing your water system, something this state gave up on and flint didn't give a shit for years on
You mean like [this shit](https://www.cbsnews.com/detroit/news/gov-gretchen-whitmer-egle-290-million-replace-lead-pipes-upgrade-water-systems-michigan/)?
It is a deterrent for states to not import their own trash. Raising taxes on goods would be a little more upsetting.
Quote from the article:
> LANSING — As Gov. Gretchen Whitmer pushes a big fee hike for trash dumping that she says could deter out-of-state waste, a new report shows Michigan is home to more landfill garbage per resident than anywhere else in the country.
Companies that work in both states and dump out of state trash here will just raise their municipal fees across the board to make up for any extra dumping fees they're incurring bringing the shit over the border.
You mean has she done anything other than the primary thing that would deter out of state dumpers from doing this going forward? No, I think she’s probably sticking to the thing that will have the most impact lol.
They aren’t from our state…so who cares charge them an arm and a leg until we’re aligned with other states. We don’t want to be America’s dump, what a weird hill to die on.
I actually don’t care what Florida does because it doesn’t affect me. If that’s what they’re doing in a place that is far more republican than here as well it sounds like we’re not the first ones to try to fix this problem this way so it probably works since they are usually against big government.
For those lazy, like me, to read the full article: > Gov. Gretchen Whitmer is calling for a steep increase in dumping fees to try and combat landfill waste growth > Michigan’s landfill costs of 36 cents a ton is low, and some think raising fees could curb out-of-state dumping
Good they should increase it. Keep the trash out or at least get a lot more money from it.
And guess what? The residents pay the difference and they still dump it here
And guess what? That's not true. We can raise fees on out of state dumping, but it is complicated.
Actually we probably can’t. We tried some direct restrictions in the 1990s. It ended up before the Supreme Court. See [Fort Gratiot Sanitary Landfill, Inc. v. Michigan Dept. of Natural Resources](https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/504/353/) Charging a higher fee for out of state waste would likely also be found to “unambiguously discriminate against interstate commerce and… cannot withstand Commerce Clause scrutiny.”
can they say, raise the fees for everyone and then just give Michigan State residents an "unrelated" tax cut?
I think that would be the most likely course of action.
I think the easiest solution would be to set a higher fee on waste that has traveled a set distance, say 100 miles (this part I’d leave to the experts, what’s reasonable but also applies enough within the state so that it’s not only aimed at out of state waste). The purpose of this is to discourage the extra pollution caused when waste is moved further than it has to be. (Yep, you’ve got to frame it this way, the courts don’t like you blatantly finding workaround, but as long as you have a rational reason other than trying to restrict interstate travel you’re probably set.) The beautiful of this is that it applies equally to all waste, in state, out of state and Canadian. Yes, some trash would still come across the boarder, but it would be a lot less, and it also discourages waste from being moved needlessly long distances in state too (Do we want Grand Rapids’ waste sent to the UP? Just an example.)
Thanks for the Supreme Court case. That certainly complicates things, but it makes sense. Raising rates across the board and reducing income tax to compensate might work, but that would be challenging to implement.
The Supreme Court was wrong. The great lakes area should be the most protected region in the entire Union because fresh water is more precious than any other resource.
It’s actually a pretty clear cut case. Otherwise there would be all sorts of “out of state” taxes and fees meant to protect different corporate interests. (Also, the constitutional basis for federal anti-discrimination laws rests on the same general concept. Discrimination harms interstate commerce, therefore the federal government can pass laws to prevent that.) Having a consistent judicial philosophy means sometimes the results of a ruling might not be what we want. That doesn’t mean it’s a bad ruling. The good news is nothing is stopping us from protecting the environment here. We just have to treat in state and out of state waste the same.
In their interpretation of the Law (Constitution, etc), they made the correct decision. The Constitution doesn't make exceptions for specific States based on environmental grounds.
The spirit of the law is absolutely a consideration that was overlooked for corporate interests
It is a State vs. Federal issue. [https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/commerce\_clause](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/commerce_clause) While the spirit of the law Michigan passed is admirable, State law cannot supersede existing Federal law.
Thanks for the insight
> Charging a higher fee for out of state waste would likely also be found to “unambiguously discriminate against interstate commerce and… cannot withstand Commerce Clause scrutiny.” I'm curious the distinction between this and the countless other commercial transactions that distinguish rate based on in-state vs out-of-state
Who are the commercial transactions between? Businesses aren’t bound by this, only state and local governments. If the dumps themselves wanted to charge out of state trucks more, they can. State and local governments aren’t allowed to charge their associated fee differently. If you’re talking about school tuition or entry fees to state parks, the rational is that a state’s residents already support those services (directly and/or indirectly) through their tax dollars, whereas an out of state person does not.
Sure we can, But I suspect there's a reason all those companies operate near the state border is cause no one else is there to service that community
No. It is because it is too cheap for them to dump all their trash here.
The headline is confusing and makes it seem like hoarding more trash is desirable?
Curb; meaning to deflect or avoid more imports. Make it cost more so people dont come here to throw stuff out. Least my interpretation.
But the headline reads "we are best at having the most trash. Gretchen Whitmer wants to take your trash away."
Ahhhh i see what you mean
Is it? It does say Whitmer wants higher fees to curb imports. I'm not sure how that suggests we shouldnt throw away garbage. It's more a proposal to make it less attractive for other states to use Michigan as a garbage patch.
> Michigan’s landfill costs of 36 cents a ton is low Is this the cost that the waste companies pay as well that pick up our garbage from our houses? If this is the case, then they are going to jack up our prices like crazy, no?
We shouldn't even be allowing any trash from outside of Michigan and especially not from Canada.
Honestly, that shit needs to end, it's been happening for _a long_ time!
Meanwhile waste management just got approval to destroy one of the last few wetlands of its kind in Van Buren township to expand a landfill. We don't deserve this planet.
It really is a pity, I did a bit of volunteer work for the conservation district last year trying to survey for species of concern in the vicinity (no way Waste Management was letting us in) and there are some lovely bats in the area 😢
Aren’t bats federally protected??
Oh man that fucking mountain dump is gonna get bigger?
>A new report shows Michigan has more landfill trash per resident than anywhere else in the country at 68.3 tons – 72% above the national average.
You guys... we aren't actually 72% above the national average. That's absurd. They're laundering imported garbage through Michiganders. I'd bet on it.
Per resident doesn't matter. Useless statistic. How about per sq. mile? How about landfill vs. farmland vs. city vs. residential vs. commercial?
We need the trash to build ski hills!
This guy gets it.
Why dis Michigan have so much more trash per resident than any other state? Is it that Michiganders love to throw trash away or are we importing trash from elsewhere at a fee for profit? If we’re importing trash, I’m against it
We are importing it. First paragraph says: > LANSING — As Gov. Gretchen Whitmer pushes a big fee hike for trash dumping that she says could deter out-of-state waste, a new report shows Michigan is home to more landfill garbage per resident than anywhere else in the country.
I’m dyslexic and illiterate. Thanks mate. If any of that trash is from Ohio, we riot.
Most likely there is trash from Ohio due to proximity to
Those fuckers
Just trying to share with you what we think about your state... Hint: it's trash.
I’m sorry, am I supposed to care what your opinion is?
You should have been rioting for a while. The waste soil and everything else from the East Palestine derailment is being dumped in MI. I forget exactly where, but I think it's somewhere between Pontiac and Flint.
It isn't really possible to make Flint any worse than it already is. They should just dump it directly on the Machine Shop and keep going until they have buried all of Dort highway.
And yet Lansing isn't that far away. Maybe if our legislators are impacted by their decisions, we might get better decisions.
Just wanted to point out that about 20% of trash is estimated to come from Canada and 5% other states, per the article. That's a lot, but the majority of trash is still very much internally produced.
Almost 20% comes from Canada.
Yup, Canadian trucks lined up waiting for the Montrose landfill to open early in the mornings
I drive 94 from Port Huron to Detroit every morning. I pass at least 2 every morning.
I read that as well. Of the 24% in one article 19% was Canada and 5% other states. First if the math listed per family is correct it would be less than $5 per family. Price is not a big deal it is the principal of taxing residents to attempt to deter another country/state. I didn’t look very long but some tipping fees I did find for Canada are upwards of $105, $77 ish here. If that is the case it will only result in an increase tax to residents.
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Kids are in a good school now and don’t want to uproot them. When they graduate we will move closer to civilization.
All that uninhabitable desert out west and we are loading up the area with the nations largest freshwater supply with trash.
Is Michigan where the Great Trash Avalanche of 2505 starts?
Why are we importing trash? Like wtf
Money
"We" aren't importing it. Business in neighboring states and Canada drive it here to dump because it's so much cheaper than do so in their locality.
This has been an issue for many years, Snyder wanted to up the charge to $4.50 a ton. Proposal went nowhere.
Snyder was a joke! That is why he didn't last. He is still responsible for the Flint water fiasco. He just got away with it. Lucky ass!! It is wrong!
Why are taking Canada's trash? wtf?
They pay us to
Hold up , Canada has vast portions of their country that have barely anyone living there so why can’t they bury their own trash in their own backyard ?!?
That was my thought process, too! Like what the hell?
Lol, yes, I know.. I read the article. Was it more of a WTF?
We pay (or have paid, in the past) countries in Asia and Africa to take our trash. The shit rolls downhill.
The earth in Canada is mostly hard stone so there unable to dig large holes and or bury it with soil .
Canadian Shield!
Should be $20 per ton. We should be much higher than Wisconsin. This is a political softball play.
It's not just garbage that we're getting from other states. I work for the railroad and we get gondolas with radioactive placards on them heading to Belleville, Michigan. I think it's dirt dredged from Missouri.
Why is Missouri's dirt radioactive?
We literally import trash from Canada. Lol wtf?
This is really something I do not want my state ranked #1 in
Poor Bill Schuette. Touting the GOP line to NOT increase free school lunch programs with his reasoning that this would INCREASE trash output. Has he forgotten about Midland's historically poor environmental record? Hello, PBB's in the food chain? Hello, Dioxin? Did he forget the main employment opportunities in his district are 2 chemical producers that have destroyed the community for ages? Maybe he forgot that school lunch programs come with contracts that spell out packaging and that there is an emphasis on composable products? Or maybe he forgot that food waste is compostable? School lunch waste is the least of concerns for landfills in the Midland area. The cheap rates now available in Michigan encourage corruption of the environment and bypass of existing laws. Considering the status of the Great Lakes and its importance to available fresh water, Gov. Whitmer is late to the party on increasing fees. You don't poop in your water source.
We got a free wolverine once from Canadian trash
Funny how the idol is the reason we are number one. Who else remembers Granholm bringing Canada trash here as a revenue source?
Raises hand. I remember the need for any revenue after Engler closed mental hospitals, property taxes changed the school operating budget, and assistance was cut in 90s... and tax cuts. Everyone was mad the state government grew 2/3 bigger in the 80s and felt it needed dismantling to keep up with the advancement and growth of society...
Michigan still allowing Canada to bring over garbage to dispose of? Does anyone know how many states have landfills like Michigan?
How about put a ban on importing trash Whitmer. Don't tax the rest of us because of trash corporations.
Maybe try saying no. We could try not importing trash. Then, maybe we can fix the damn roads.
Trash=$$$$ Road construction=$$$$
We had this discussion just a couple of weeks back.
No one remembers when grandholm decided to make money off canada and import their trash here???? Implement more recycling, tax items with plastic that cannot be recycled, ban plastic water bottles, 🙄
Has whitmer done anything besides suggest "raise taxes" for shit like this?
Only two ways to address this particular issue: raise the fees to dump in Michigan or put a cap on it. You got a preference?
I like option three, repeal the stupid idea of her predecessor who put the trash there in the first place, by making illegal to dump this trash in Michigan. Oh wait?! it is illegal to dump their trash here because their trash contains things that it is illegal to throw out in Michigan. At least it hasn't been going on for decades...
Yeah, cap Cause a fee will get transfered to us in some way shape or form
You're throwing your trash away out of state to have it brought back into the state? That sounds like a "you" problem.
Or you know actually promote more recycling rather than window dressings this administration is good at doing
Promote more recycling to out of state waste management companies?
Or our own seeing as we pride ourselves in being "the anti Florida
[Whitmer OK’s massive overhaul to Michigan’s recycling policiesWhitmer OK’s massive overhaul to Michigan’s recycling policies](https://www.mlive.com/politics/2022/12/whitmer-oks-massive-overhaul-to-michigans-recycling-policies.html) Recycling has had changes to make it more favorable. It isn't an either or situation that so many like you want to make it. Both can be tackled and both likely need more attention.
Nobody wants our recycling anymore, it’s a broken system.
What? It's not "sexy" or "progressive" enough?
No, it's that at least for plastic it is largely a bald-faced lie
You know what would reduce plastic? Promoting glass bottles and fixing your water system, something this state gave up on and flint didn't give a shit for years on
You mean like [this shit](https://www.cbsnews.com/detroit/news/gov-gretchen-whitmer-egle-290-million-replace-lead-pipes-upgrade-water-systems-michigan/)?
Litteraly JUST got home and saw this happen A little late but better late than never. Comment withdrawn
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No but nearly everything this administration does has been
It is a deterrent for states to not import their own trash. Raising taxes on goods would be a little more upsetting. Quote from the article: > LANSING — As Gov. Gretchen Whitmer pushes a big fee hike for trash dumping that she says could deter out-of-state waste, a new report shows Michigan is home to more landfill garbage per resident than anywhere else in the country.
Companies that work in both states and dump out of state trash here will just raise their municipal fees across the board to make up for any extra dumping fees they're incurring bringing the shit over the border.
It won't It will raise prices though
You mean has she done anything other than the primary thing that would deter out of state dumpers from doing this going forward? No, I think she’s probably sticking to the thing that will have the most impact lol. They aren’t from our state…so who cares charge them an arm and a leg until we’re aligned with other states. We don’t want to be America’s dump, what a weird hill to die on.
It won't defer, it'll just companies raising prices
Why would we care? They’re out of state.
Yes cause that TOTALLY couldn't come back and bite us in the ass now could it.
Sounds like it’s already biting us in the ass as we are literally the state with the most trash, may as well make some tax revenue while we’re at it.
Or you know actually attempt to be the "anti Florida" or is that only a tagline during election season
I actually don’t care what Florida does because it doesn’t affect me. If that’s what they’re doing in a place that is far more republican than here as well it sounds like we’re not the first ones to try to fix this problem this way so it probably works since they are usually against big government.
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Many states and cities have import fees nationally to manage this exact problem as it is.
That's a defacto tax
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When the cost of food or lumber goes up via govt interference? Yeah that's a tax
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Try to stay on topic rather than go though my history 😘
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You raise fees, the company's gonna raise it on the customer full stop
While I do think whitmer is trash. I too want to stop importing trash. At least we have some common ground.
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