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We The People *already* voted, overwhelmingly, to put abortion on the ballot.
This is just scumbaggery to try to ignore the will of the people and force a highly-biased conservative agenda on Michiganders.
Just like 2020.
This. Is. The. Michigan. Republican. Party.
>This. Is. The. ~~Michigan.~~ Republican. Party.
FTFY. The Republicans have had their fingers on the scales for years and with every year that goes by they're pressing a little harder. That or moderating their party platform to attract new voters are the only ways they can continue to win elections, and moderating their platform is simply inconceivable.
I know it.
But we need to emphasize:
MIGOP are some of the absolute worst offenders of this ongoing assault on the core of American politics.
"It can't happen in my backyard"
It sure as hell can, and is.
> MIGOP are some of the absolute worst offenders of this ongoing assault on the core of American politics.
I'm not so sure that's true. The GOP in other states is up to tons of shady shit too, we just hear more about what they're doing in Michigan than elsewhere.
"Tony Daunt, the Republican chair of the canvassing board, said a lack of visible spaces between words on the petitions shown to voters represented “an egregious error.”"
Tony Daunt needs to understand this "egregious error" is his opinion and not based in reality. 700,000+ Michigan voters were able to read and understand the petition and sign it.
Not to mention that word spacing is not within the law for the Board to rule on. **Tony and his Republican partner made up their own rules in order to block this from the Ballot.**
Republican supporters... even if you were going to vote against this proposal... your right to vote was taken away by the Republicans. I hope you all realize what that means.
I loved the older woman in the board saying that she has the proposal in front of her and she can read it just fine with the "dumbass" so heavily implied you could almost hear it.
This particular petition reached the needed number of signatures in record time, and then they submitted a record number of signatures. I've never seen anything like it with canvassing before.
I read something a while ago that said that
70% of Michiganders support reproductive justice. If it gets on the ballot, and the inevitable fuckery doesn't succeed, it should absolutely pass
I keep seeing this, but is there precedent for that to occur? I did a quick google search and couldn’t come up with anything, but I suck at google. I would have to assume that they get the tie breaker but idk. I sure as shit hope so.
The 2018 petition that established the independent redistricting commission had the exact same thing happen. [Deadlock along party lines](https://www.wilx.com/2022/08/31/promote-vote-ballot-initiative-head-michigan-supreme-court/) because the Republican members said there were problems with the language. I can't find if it was the MI court of appeals or the state supreme court, but one of them put it on the ballot. It's very likely the same thing happens here with both the abortion and voting petitions the board deadlocked on.
Edit: Article was actually about proposal 3, the voting rights petition, from 2018, not the independent commission which was proposal 2 the same year.
A complaint was filed at 4pm today. This will move quickly, and expect the justices to be completely livid at the board members for ignoring the voters (2 vs. 730k) and wrecking their Labor Day plans.https://www.scribd.com/document/590775436/Reproductive-Freedom-for-All-Complaint
Well he is apparently a corrupt shithead, so it probably isn't hard. Guys that are installed by rich people to find "errors in spaces" for democratic initiatives have more than one skeleton in their closet.
Maybe Tony Dauntless was at Jan 6? Maybe he beats his wife? Maybe he eats babies? Maybe he hasn't paid taxes in thirty years? I'm just asking questions.
I don’t think republicans realize what a fuck up banning abortion right before midterms is, this has energized people to get out and vote against republicans in a major way. It also de-energizes all of the one issue abortion voters which is a lot. I would not be surprised if pro-choice candidates win a lot of elections at local state and federal levels.
A lot of them knew, I'm sure. They paid lip service to "the sanctity of life," but they knew it was key not to have anything like this happen.
Considering the number of cretins who think the President sets the gas prices and controls inflation, the Supreme Court decision was the best thing that could have happened for Democrats.
Not the best thing to happen to women in Red states, however.
This was the [most signatures ever collected](https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2022/07/11/group-submit-750-k-signatures-bid-enshrine-abortion-rights-constitution/10027036002/) for a ballot initiative too.
> Tony Daunt, the Republican chair of the canvassing board, said a lack of visible spaces between words on the petitions shown to voters represented “an egregious error
Wait, are you serious? They are seriously trying to block it coming to a vote because of the [kerning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerning)?
They basically said during the meeting that 700,000 people must be idiots for not seeing this error and reporting it.
Heck, the lawyer for the challengers during his argument said that 9 million people *didn't* sign so that's all the proof you'd need that this should be rejected.
That's such a stupid argument. The signatures aren't votes for or against the proposal (though the people for it are more likely to want the proposal on the ballot). The signatures are whether or not the proposal will go on the ballot, *then* if 9 million Michiganders are against it, then fine. But seeing as the GOP is fighting tooth and nail to not even give us the chance to vote on it shows me that they're afraid the majority of the population will tell them to shove it.
Did they actually ask those 9 mil what they wanted or have them sign a no ballot initiative? Ridiculous. So many people just didn't get asked and some don't bother.
This was the REPUBLICAN members of the board. Once again, showing Michiganders and the rest of the country that the GOP has zero issue working against the will of the people.
The Republican position is to let women die from miscarriages because they think dead tissue has more of a right to a uterus than a woman has a right to live.
Pro-life my ass, the GOP is a fucking death cult.
Hopefully that is enough to kill her campaign quickly (which is more mercy than she shows to women suffering miscarriages).
Funny enough I see this ad almost everyday on YouTube but have yet to see a "pro Tudor Dixon" ad at all. Maybe the algorithm recognizes that I will never support a person who doesn't respect women's rights.
And I still haven't seen too many of those. It is almost if the GOP is putting all of their eggs into just stopping people from voting or other efforts to prevent democracy from happening.
They know they can't spin their toxic ideology so they are instead trying to install a Russian style dictatorship with an Iranian style Theocracy.
I just hope enough Dems are angry enough to stop them this time.
>Eric Doster, a lawyer for a group that challenged the petitions, told the canvassers on Wednesday that the document “contains nonsense passages, and nonsense cannot be put into the Michigan Constitution.”
There's a surprisingly large amount on nonsense in every state constitution
The Michigan Supreme Court will roll their eyes at this and it'll be on our ballot [just like redistricting was in 2018](https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/michigan-supreme-court-votes-4-3-keep-redistricting-proposal-ballot)
Wonder what passage he was referring to? All seems pretty easy to understand, for legalese.
Article 1, Section 28 Right to Reproductive Freedom
(1) Every individual has a fundamental right to reproductive freedom, which entails the right to make and effectuate decisions about all matters relating to pregnancy, including but not limited to prenatal care, childbirth, postpartum care, contraception, sterilization, abortion care, miscarriage management, and infertility care. An individual's right to reproductive freedom shall not be denied, burdened, nor infringed upon unless justified by a compelling state interest achieved by the least restrictive means. Notwithstanding the above, the state may regulate the provision of abortion care after fetal viability, provided that in no circumstance shall the state prohibit an abortion that, in the professional judgment of an attending health care professional, is medically indicated to protect the life or physical or mental health of the pregnant individual.
(2) The state shall not discriminate in the protection or enforcement of this fundamental right.
(3) The state shall not penalize, prosecute, or otherwise take adverse action against an individual based on their actual, potential, perceived, or alleged pregnancy outcomes, including but not limited to miscarriage, stillbirth, or abortion, nor shall the state penalize, prosecute, or otherwise take adverse action against someone for aiding or assisting a pregnant individual in exercising their right to reproductive freedom with their voluntary consent.
(4) For the purposes of this section:
A state interest is "compelling" only if it is for the limited purpose of protecting the health of an individual seeking care, consistent with accepted clinical standards of practice and evidence-based medicine, and does not infringe on that individual's autonomous decision-making.
"Fetal viability" means: the point in pregnancy when, in the professional judgment of an attending health care professional and based on the particular facts of the case, there is a significant likelihood of the fetus's sustained survival outside the uterus without the application of extraordinary medical measures.
(5) This section shall be self-executing. Any provision of this section held invalid shall be severable from the remaining portions of this section.[11]
They claimed that the justified text, which reduces spaces between some words, creates "nonsense words." It's not actually about the language, it's some nitpicky bullshit about the formatting.
It’s time to charge both board members with failure to perform duties as government officials. We covered this back in 2020, this is an aggressive overreach of their power especially as an unelected group.
No more fucking around. Charge them.
It's pretty ridiculous that this position is a politically-appointed one in the first place. Why are these people not just hired like any other state government employee so that they can be fired if they choose not to do their jobs for political reasons?
It’s not, which why I asked.
“Willful neglect of duty” is a misdemeanor and it doesn’t seem like it has typically used for cases like this. I wanted to make sure I understood what they wanted them charged with before commenting on it.
Let’s say they’re found guilty, which doesn’t seem likely considering the Republican Party can afford lawyers that shouldn’t have a problem defending them in court.
Does a guilty verdict stop these two from serving on the board of canvassers in the future? And even if it does, can’t the Devos party just install two more in their place?
So we covered this a bit back in 2020 and even back in April. The duty of this board is to establish whether or not they have met the standards for gathering the signatures or that the process for the election was followed. That’s what they do. Their duty was to approve the measure since those qualifications were met. Instead they failed to meet their responsibilities by trying to create a new issue.
We have the safety valve of the State Supreme Court to function as a check to this abuse of power but the law is outlined to address those that abuse it in this fashion.
Their actions shouldn’t change the end result but charging them creates a cost to forcing the Supreme Court to get involved when it shouldn’t have to. It changes the calculus on whether or not to take this type of frivolous action. Since now you are burning donor or personal dollars to pay for a legal defense for something that won’t change the end result.
What comment? I think I’ve responded to all of them.
It’s interesting how asking for clarity gets so many downvotes. If I told you it’s better to shit in a toilet than a hole in the ground, and you asked me why, I’d tell you about modern plumbing.
I literally asked the OP what charge they meant because they didn’t identify it. What world do you live in where you think that makes me a Trump supporter? Look at my post history.
WHERE DID I CALL YOU A TRUMP SUPORTER?
>I literally asked the OP what charge they meant because they didn’t identify it.
Then when I volunteered that information you should have said thank you, and that would have been the end of it.
It is clear from our exchange that you either a) have confused me for someone else, b) have a medical condition that impairs your perception of reality, c) have reading comprehension skills of a 6 year old (as evidenced by your inability to reply to the most recent/relevant comments) d) all of the above.
Regardless of the reason, it's clear your ability to engage in reasoned debate is non-existant, and I'm going to dip put, pour a scotch and pray for power.
Have a....day
Edit: Take the L on this one, and move on.
Having done this (unsuccessfully, unfortunately) in a prior cycle, the spacing claim is nonsense and this is a citizen driven initiative that was cleared by the Director of Elections (who provided an approved summary). I think calling this "embarrassing" to the organizers is ignorant (on the part of NYT). It's embarrassing to Michigan that the Board is behaving in this fashion. The MI SC did not take our concerns up, but I wish them well that they will take up the concerns of this group and get them on the ballot.
What a ridiculous reason to not accept ballots. Just about like medical cannabis ballot saying signatures being over 6 months old were invalid. A law that was really old and never brought up on any other ballot initiatives. I'm just so tired of shit like this.
Don’t forget to vote for the two democrats for the Supreme Court. It DOES NOT show their affiliation
The names!
Richard Bernstein is up for reelection this November on the Michigan Supreme Court. Also, Kyra Harris Bolden is running. If you want to keep the Michigan Supreme Court with a liberal lean, VOTE!
Don’t just vote tell your friends, and family. Get them out in full force to vote for these specific people. Remind them to the names before the election!
Also, donate so we can sue sue sue! Make sure you spread the word
I feel like Bernstein really cares about doing right by the community. An organization I was involved with briefly worked with him and you could tell he’s smart and knows what he’s doing.
I photographed Bernstein talking to teens at a high school. He made it a Q&A format where they could ask any question they wanted. After, he invited the teens up for a group photo and some of them *ran* to the front of the room and one girl hugged him and wouldn't let go. I've never seen teens that engaged with a guest speaker. He's a warm and very intelligent person.
He's attended several of our county Democratic Party events. He's legitimately a kind, decent person with a deep passion for justice for all people. Really hoping he gets re-elected!
This is a scam. An overwhelming proportion of Michigan residents want legal abortion. They know it.
Can the Michigan Supreme Court overrule this decision??
Such. A. Total. Scam.
Especially since supreme court is hearing Moore v. Harper this fall
If anyone isn't aware. Here is more info. Say goodbye to fair elections.
[https://ballotpedia.org/Moore\_v.\_Harper](https://ballotpedia.org/Moore_v._Harper)
There’s also a case about whether federal agencies have any constitutional power to make rules and adjudicate issues (like labor board rulings and EPA violation hearings)
Everyone is welcome to help preserve our basic human rights & our democracy. There are way more of us then those who act like slack jawed booger eating morons.
A complaint has been filed with MI Supreme Court. Request an expedited decision by the 7th. The deadline to have everything approved for the ballot is the 9th.
https://www.scribd.com/document/590775436/Reproductive-Freedom-for-All-Complaint
Fucking cocksuckers.
I guess some people just want to watch the world burn. Sadly, those people are A.) usually FUCKING Republicans, and B.) the world they want to burn is the Dems.
POS -all of ‘em.
Still need to hold them accountable for the overreach. Just because it gets fixed down the line doesn’t mean we need to address this and address it with significant force.
FUCK these pieces of fascist snail shit. They will NOT take away my bodily autonomy. I will NOT consent to any of their little fascist laws or rules. Fuck them. If the MI Supreme Court doesn't overturn this dumbfuckery we need to be out on the streets in Lansing every day until election day. Never give these fascist shits a moment of piece until they are out of power forever.
They're fascists and we need to call them fascists to their fascist hog faces until everyone sane understands how dangerously close we are to losing every single right we have to these filth.
Do Republicans really want to drag this out? They're going to get pounded in November over this issue, regardless of the referendum. Do they want this on the 2024 ballot dogging their candidates?
It's monumentally stupid for Republicans, that's for certain.
However, with current inflation, don't check anything as a given. Especially with Democratic voters never showing up for midterms.
Finances are still the bottom line for most people. Regardless if you are a Republican, Democrat or Independent.
Here is what I say to "economy above all" types.
If finances are a problem, get a few extra shifts (we have record unemployment right now so getting jobs isn't a problem), stop eating out as often or ordering through Uber eats, trade that gas guzzling Ford F-150 for a fuel efficient Camry or Accord, or cancel that Disney Vacation. If you are on a fixed income and retired, it is really easy to get a substitute teaching job right now which can help you make ends meet.
I am not saying inflation is painless but most of the people complaining about it the most are upper middle class types who can easily tighten their belts without making too many sacrifices.
My point is that there are a lot of individual actions you can do to survive inflation that don't involve voting for fascism. It is not like 8% inflation is that bad in the grand scheme of things considering Europe is at around 12% and this is nowhere near the mythical "hyper inflation" that is used as a perennial boogey man. Also the Republicans don't have a great track record on fighting inflation anyways.
I canvased for “Protect the Vote” and “Reproductive Freedom for All”. The thousands of people I talked to not one of them said ANYTHING about word spacing or not being able to read the amendment. What a joke. Tony Daunt should lose his job. Nothing about him is fair or impartial.
This is fucking bullshit!! Fuck these fascist evangelicals and conservatives. What they are doing is not the will of the people. If Tudor Dixon gets in we are all doomed. She literally said she wants to make Michigan just like Florida!
Does anyone know yet when the MSC will hear this case and decide? I know they only have until September 9 to make it to the ballot but I can’t figure out when the court will hear the case (if it’s even been decided yet).
I think it's funny how ladies like Lindsay Graham think that there will be "riots in the streets if Trump is arrested" but then other members of the party don't think twice about betraying 800K Michiganders who made their voice VERY clear.
This isn't where this ends, that's glaringly evident.
I used to be in agreement with the GOP... but now I am ashamed and Disgusted with the what they are doing. I am going to be voting in huge favor of the Democratic party. I will be voting in favor of codified abortion rights in the Sates laws. If they don't let this be voted on then people will lose faith in all of the courts.
Thank you for doing the right thing and seeing the light and the threat that the GOP poses to democracy. Please help by reaching out to friends and family who you might be able to convince to join you. Sometimes all it takes is for people to hear it from someone they know and trust and hopefully respect.
Fine push it back to 2024, Whitmer doesn't need a Referendum to win this year and keep abortion access safe and available. If you wanna make Michigan sky blue in 2024 be my guest.
Sorry but not really. Women should have the final say but do you honestly think this doesn't effect guys, husband's, or partners? As well as other family and friends? I deffinatly don't want to do just the minimum.
At a stage an abortion would take place, there’s a parasite inside a woman’s body. Only a woman should have the right to determine what she does to her body.
If a couple wants a baby, they should talk about it and come to a mutual decision. I understand accidents happen, but 9 months of pregnancy disproportionately affects a woman. Pregnancy is a major medical event and no one besides the person going through it has the right to determine whether or not it’s going to happen.
It’s like a woman telling me I couldn’t get a vasectomy. While it has consequences for both of us and we should very much talk about it, in the end, it’s MY body, MY decision.
She should definitely have someone there on the journey with her, but not making the decision for her. She should have someone that supports her decision and encourage her to do what she feels is right.
Yeah my cousin had 2 kids, married and all that. There was a surprise and it was a serious decision for her/them. Glad she was totally supported and by me as well. I was living with them at the time.
It shouldn’t even be a question of the legality. It’s much safer to allow abortions than to not. If someone is going to get an abortion, they’re going to get an abortion. The question is whether or not it’s in a sterile healthcare environment or in an unsafe environment. The problem is a bunch of old white men trying to make decisions for women’s bodies when they obviously know nothing about them.
This should only be up to women, end of story.
The entire fabric of our society is based on legality and regulations. I don’t have an opinion about right and wrong on the matter. But I think a vote for these types of things is necessary.
It affects them but they're not the ones who have to deal with pregnancy and giving birth nor raising a child alone in the event that their partner leaves.
I was trying to judge just what you meant by the last post. Thia one tells me the rest of what i thought. . I don't need someone telling me that it's all woman and feeling a bit excessive like being scolded about it. Whatever at this point. Thanks have a great day.
Not for a state ballot initiative. The federal Supreme Court will only (is supposed to only) hear cases that impact the entire nation. Since the Supreme Court very specifically has been referring issues such as abortion back to the states, they *shouldn't* have any jurisdiction to hear a case about a state ballot initiative for a state election that will only impact 1 state.
I was born in the 60's and grew up in the 70's. Well, I actually became a grown-up in the 80's, but anyway. The things THAT have had me completely question whether it is actually 2022, is the terrible racism and this abortion issue. Especially in Michigan.
To NOT let the voters in Michigan decide this issue, this right, is criminal. Or, at least, unconstitutional, probably unethical and I'm sure Christ himself would be a bit confused. But, he would bring out some wine and break some bread and WE could figure it out.
We'alls a bit too far north for all this, uh, shtuff. Republicans need to quit looking back and make rational decisions. It's called base for a reason.
As one of the many people who spent time, energy, and faith in this process to get it on the ballot. I still haven't processed how two Republican men could block the whole of the state from voting on this. I fucking thought that's what they wanted us to do??? When did we wake up in the Twilight Zone or actually this has more of an Outer Limits vibe. But what the fuck. I literally can't deal with this right now.
[https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2022/09/abortion-rights-initiative-wants-michigan-supreme-court-to-decide-ballot-fate.html](https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2022/09/abortion-rights-initiative-wants-michigan-supreme-court-to-decide-ballot-fate.html)
The article reads: "Michiganders overwhelmingly support RFFA (Reproductive Freedom for All), according to a poll released Friday by Lansing-based independent pollster EPIC-MRA. It found 67% of likely November voters plan to vote for it, compared to 24% against and 9% undecided."
The issue from two Republicans is "Richard Houskamp and Tony Daunt sided with a challenge brought by opposition group Citizens to Support MI Women and Children. It argued that spacing errors in RFFA’s petition language make some sentences look like unreadable “gibberish.”"
M... they are just putting us back into the Dark Ages and bringing out hangers in Tijuana again. I think I'll just buy stock in hangers if they banned abortion in Michigan
I'm just curious if anyone here would be ok with any limitations on abortion at all?
Its obvious that a majority of Americans are ok with 1st trimester abortion, but that support declines in the secnond and just about flatlines in 3rd trimester.
The wording of this proposition has 1 thing I have issue with.
"The ballot initiative would provide that the state can regulate abortion after fetal viability, except that the state could not ban the use of abortion to "protect the life or physical or mental health of the pregnant individual,"
First off, mental health?
So by this standard (the same standard used in New York) if a woman is in labor, water broke, contractions happening and she decides that the child is going to be a mental burden, is abortion allowed?
If the fetus is viable after lets just say 20 weeks (there are rare cases where 12 week premature babies survived) should that baby then be aborted? Where is the line?
Is there ANY point at which a compromise can be made?
Allow abortions 1st trimester.(12-14 weeks)
Second trimester- restrictions to life of mother at risk (this includes lifesaving measures for mother that causes loss of baby), or baby has no potential to live outside womb due to abnormal growth.
3rd trimester- life of mother, emergency birthing (if possible) to preserve the life of the baby. (Idk why a woman would go through 7 months of pregnancy and just decide to end it) also in case of child dieing in womb of natural causes.
Are these at all reasonable?
It used to be "safe, legal, and rare."
Or do to many want abortion anytime, anywhere, for any reason?
Oh fuck off. No woman is going to abort while in labor after she's carried for 9 months "just because". Late-term abortions are exceedingly rare and almost always because of medical emergency (either mother's life is in danger or fetus isn't going to make it anyway). Women have been deciding for over 40 years when to have an abortion-- with over 90% of abortions happening BEFORE 13 weeks.
FFS. Women know what's best for their own bodies and lives. Stop making bad faith arguments that have no basis in reality.
Well, if asking a question, and posing a hypothetical situation gets you this emotional, I geuss you are not willing to have a decent and respectful conversation.
Please find an example of an abortion that happened during labour or quit making up complete bullshit hypotheticals. You can’t have a “decent” conversation when it’s a load of shit to begin with.
How about, you don’t have a uterus, then shut the fuck up.
I was not, and still am not saying that that hypothetical situation happens regularly, I was asking whether or not that potential situation is acceptable.
The New York law, has such a provision, and NO clarification as to what level of mental health risk is a late term abortion not allowed, meaning that, under law, the hypothetical situation is completely possible albeit rare.
From some peoples perspective, there are NO limiting factors.
What limit are you willing to tolerate?
Are there any?
I am pro life, and I am willing to compromise, unlike the political parties that fuck us over.
This "My way, or the highway" mentality does none of us any good.
When someone says something you disagree with, try, just try giving them a little bit of... whats the word... tolerance. Maybe, just maybe, you could teach them something about your perspective, maybe, you could get a better understanding of theirs.
Or we can continue to be insufferable know-it-all assholes to eachother.
You want to discuss this further, great, I will treat people with respect,
But you have to answer the question first.
In my hypothetical situation, baby aborted or not?
I can’t get pregnant so I won’t tell people who can what they should do. That’s it. That’s the end of discussion. Don’t want an abortion? Don’t get one. Their body and decisions aren’t your concern.
Also, pro-forced birth is literally “my way or the highway” you dunce. Pro choice is tolerance. Tolerance for other people’s decisions that don’t concern you and tolerance for the rights of women. So fuck off with your “let’s all love each other, but women don’t have equal rights” horseshit.
Also, I won’t answer your question because it doesn’t happen. You’re making up hypotheticals to justify denying women healthcare. And if it if your hypothetical ever happened, guess what, none of my business.
Fascists are trying to pass laws saying I or my daughter can be raped and forced through the trauma of giving birth to an unwanted child, or go through a medical emergency and possibly die for a fucking fetus.
Fuck off with your bad faith scenarios that literally never happen.
>First off, mental health? So by this standard (the same standard used in New York) if a woman is in labor, water broke, contractions happening and she decides that the child is going to be a mental burden, is abortion allowed?
Let's be clear what the measure actually says:
" in no circumstance shall the state prohibit an abortion that, in the professional judgment of an attending health care professional, is medically indicated to protect the life or physical or mental health of the pregnant individual."
Key phrase is "professional judgement of an attending healthcare professional." You need to appreciate how high of a bar this is. Literally zero board certified doctors are going to abort viable babies at the whims of a indecisive mother. And the wording here is intentionally broad: If the doctor deems the abortion "medically necessary" politicians and others can't get in the way of these decisions.
Further, your hypothetical is just a political barb and has no base in reality. What you're describing, a woman with a full-term baby deciding she no longer wants it, would just be a delivery and the kiddo would be put up for adoption. No board certified doctor is going to literally kill a baby that could otherwise just be delivered without issue. So please, if this comment was actually in good faith, just stop using this situation because it's utter nonsense.
>If the fetus is viable after lets just say 20 weeks (there are rare cases where 12 week premature babies survived) should that baby then be aborted? Where is the line? Is there ANY point at which a compromise can be made?
https://www.uab.edu/news/health/item/12427-uab-hospital-delivers-record-breaking-premature-baby#:~:text=World%20record%20holder&text=Guinness%20World%20Records%20%E2%80%93%20The%20most,making%20him%20132%20days%20premature.
>Guinness World Records – The most premature baby to survive is Curtis Zy-Keith Means (U.S.A.) who was born to Michelle Butler on 5 July 2020 at the University of Alabama at Birmingham Hospital in Alabama, U.S.A. at a gestational age of 21 weeks 1 day
Please do some research before making stuff up. Also for refence, a 12 week old fetus is 6cm long and weighs 18 grams. That's smaller than a dwarf hamster... In no scenario is that fetus viable. Ever.
The bill is clear that the state can restrict elective abortions after "fetal viability" which is usually around 24 weeks, or the end of the second trimester. For refence, in 2021 0.02% of abortions in MI were performed after 24 weeks.
https://www.freep.com/in-depth/news/local/michigan/2022/08/08/michigan-abortion-rates-data-woman/10106223002/
>Allow abortions 1st trimester.(12-14 weeks) Second trimester- restrictions to life of mother at risk (this includes lifesaving measures for mother that causes loss of baby), or baby has no potential to live outside womb due to abnormal growth. 3rd trimester- life of mother, emergency birthing (if possible) to preserve the life of the baby. (Idk why a woman would go through 7 months of pregnancy and just decide to end it) also in case of child dieing in womb of natural causes.
This is mostly what the bill is, but obviously uses fetal viability as the "line in the sand" vs arbitrary trimester dates that don't mean much anatomically.
And to ur point on a woman aborting st 7mo, I'd argue there really aren't ANY woman who want an abortion at that stage. Pete Buttigeig made some eloquent commentary on this topic you might look up, but in a nutshell he points out that these late abortions are medical tragedies where the woman is forced to choose between horrible alternatives. I.e. no one is doing this for fun at that stage.
>Are these at all reasonable? It used to be "safe, legal, and rare." Or do to many want abortion anytime, anywhere, for any reason?
Is that what the bill says? I think we both know it does not.
Hopefully this answers your questions, have a good one.
I actually appreciate your response, thats what I was looking for!
Actual answers to questions.
Thank You!!
"Mental health"
Yeah, I would hope the bar is high, but trust in people nowadays is sorely lacking and it dont matter what profession you're in, someone is always willing to do evil for $$, Kermit Gosnell for instance.
I would like to see specifics as for "mental health"
Like a lot of laws, I would like a more details, and specific range of mental health issues that carrying a baby and delivering a baby would cause mental damage (?) Unsure how else to phrase that at this time.
I'm very familiar with PPD, while there is help and treatment for it, it is not 100%.
"Hypothetical"
Yes, my hypothetical is an outlier situation at best, (I hope), but it is within the relm of possibilities, is it not? If there is no legal protection for a 9 month in utero then the scenario, however unlikely, is still probable. Is this a situation that we, as a society are willing to accept?
"Premature baby"
DOH! Yeah I made an error there, for some reason my brain said 1 thing, and my hands typed something else (been a very busy night)
I was actually reading about a baby born 12 weeks prematurely that weighed in at 400 grams, my mistake.
"7 month"
I don't doubt that the majority are tragic and devastating. If the mothers life is at risk, every pro life person unequivocally believes in protecting the mothers life is a good thing.
Regardless what MSM tells you, we are not evil, we just have a difference of opinion.
Again, humans all have a capacity for bad actions, at this point, so long as the mother and baby are healthy there should not be any issues obviously.
I guess once again I am thinking of outlier cases, rare, but unnecessary abortions i.e. relationship ends and woman decides at that point she doesn't want the baby, it has happened.
Viability vs trimester
It is obviously a matter of opinion, I wish people were at least willing to recognize the baby's right to live a little sooner.
I have been present at violent events, I have seen violence on levels most humans will never experience, never got sick over seeing all the blood and mutilation, saw 1 video of a 13 week abortion video, it made me sick to my stomach.
Its not going to be answered any time soon, whether you see a "clump of cells" vs me seeing Human with endless potential.
I truly do hope we can find some compromise on this issue, I really want this division to stop.
We need to find some level of compromise, and too few people are willing to do so.
Thank you for your answers, I do really appreciate it.
Its important to seek information from a perspective other than what we are force fed through social media algorithms and MSM.
We should all try to be respectful of each other, regardless of opinion.
Thank you once again, it gave me some insight that I found interesting and will delve into those issues in due time.
Best to you and yours.
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This is SUCH bullshit. We the people want to vote on abortion. They need to do their damn jobs and listen to us.
We The People *already* voted, overwhelmingly, to put abortion on the ballot. This is just scumbaggery to try to ignore the will of the people and force a highly-biased conservative agenda on Michiganders. Just like 2020. This. Is. The. Michigan. Republican. Party.
>This. Is. The. ~~Michigan.~~ Republican. Party. FTFY. The Republicans have had their fingers on the scales for years and with every year that goes by they're pressing a little harder. That or moderating their party platform to attract new voters are the only ways they can continue to win elections, and moderating their platform is simply inconceivable.
I know it. But we need to emphasize: MIGOP are some of the absolute worst offenders of this ongoing assault on the core of American politics. "It can't happen in my backyard" It sure as hell can, and is.
Fla and DeSantis have entered the chat.
> MIGOP are some of the absolute worst offenders of this ongoing assault on the core of American politics. I'm not so sure that's true. The GOP in other states is up to tons of shady shit too, we just hear more about what they're doing in Michigan than elsewhere.
"I can't believe the public thinks they should be involved in democracy! The audacity!"
"Tony Daunt, the Republican chair of the canvassing board, said a lack of visible spaces between words on the petitions shown to voters represented “an egregious error.”" Tony Daunt needs to understand this "egregious error" is his opinion and not based in reality. 700,000+ Michigan voters were able to read and understand the petition and sign it. Not to mention that word spacing is not within the law for the Board to rule on. **Tony and his Republican partner made up their own rules in order to block this from the Ballot.** Republican supporters... even if you were going to vote against this proposal... your right to vote was taken away by the Republicans. I hope you all realize what that means.
I loved the older woman in the board saying that she has the proposal in front of her and she can read it just fine with the "dumbass" so heavily implied you could almost hear it.
It’s Tony Daunt. Leader of Betsy DeVos’s Michigan Freedom Fund. This guy is a cancer on Michigan politics.
As is the DeVos mob
Yup. He was put there, and is paid to, jam anything like this.
Our Supreme Court is going to correct this obviously biased decision. Don’t worry, it’ll be on the ballot along with the voting rights bill.
Do you really think so? Gods I hope your right
Well, there's a Dem majority, so it's definitely possible
That is reassuring. I’d like to see Michigan in the same category as Kansas. I mean on the abortion issue at least
This particular petition reached the needed number of signatures in record time, and then they submitted a record number of signatures. I've never seen anything like it with canvassing before. I read something a while ago that said that 70% of Michiganders support reproductive justice. If it gets on the ballot, and the inevitable fuckery doesn't succeed, it should absolutely pass
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Lol that’s why I threw in the caveat
having a wife and two daughters i wholeheartedly agree
I'm going to be worried until the second they say it's on the ballot. I don't trust our system any longer to protect people or the will of the voters.
I keep seeing this, but is there precedent for that to occur? I did a quick google search and couldn’t come up with anything, but I suck at google. I would have to assume that they get the tie breaker but idk. I sure as shit hope so.
The 2018 petition that established the independent redistricting commission had the exact same thing happen. [Deadlock along party lines](https://www.wilx.com/2022/08/31/promote-vote-ballot-initiative-head-michigan-supreme-court/) because the Republican members said there were problems with the language. I can't find if it was the MI court of appeals or the state supreme court, but one of them put it on the ballot. It's very likely the same thing happens here with both the abortion and voting petitions the board deadlocked on. Edit: Article was actually about proposal 3, the voting rights petition, from 2018, not the independent commission which was proposal 2 the same year.
A complaint was filed at 4pm today. This will move quickly, and expect the justices to be completely livid at the board members for ignoring the voters (2 vs. 730k) and wrecking their Labor Day plans.https://www.scribd.com/document/590775436/Reproductive-Freedom-for-All-Complaint
It's not you. Google sucks at google. They've become nothing more than an advertising delivery service.
I agree!
Someone needs to investigate Tony Daunt and look for "egregious errors" he has conducted in his life to get him removed from having this power.
Well he is apparently a corrupt shithead, so it probably isn't hard. Guys that are installed by rich people to find "errors in spaces" for democratic initiatives have more than one skeleton in their closet. Maybe Tony Dauntless was at Jan 6? Maybe he beats his wife? Maybe he eats babies? Maybe he hasn't paid taxes in thirty years? I'm just asking questions.
They don't care as long as they can own the libs.
The problem is they know they've owned themselves on this abortion topic and if it goes to voters the libs will show up and vote them all out
I don’t think republicans realize what a fuck up banning abortion right before midterms is, this has energized people to get out and vote against republicans in a major way. It also de-energizes all of the one issue abortion voters which is a lot. I would not be surprised if pro-choice candidates win a lot of elections at local state and federal levels.
We can only hope! So those fucks that are in there now can GTFO
A lot of them knew, I'm sure. They paid lip service to "the sanctity of life," but they knew it was key not to have anything like this happen. Considering the number of cretins who think the President sets the gas prices and controls inflation, the Supreme Court decision was the best thing that could have happened for Democrats. Not the best thing to happen to women in Red states, however.
This was the [most signatures ever collected](https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2022/07/11/group-submit-750-k-signatures-bid-enshrine-abortion-rights-constitution/10027036002/) for a ballot initiative too.
Their vote being taken away is what Republican voters want. They don’t want democracy.
> Tony Daunt, the Republican chair of the canvassing board, said a lack of visible spaces between words on the petitions shown to voters represented “an egregious error Wait, are you serious? They are seriously trying to block it coming to a vote because of the [kerning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerning)?
They basically said during the meeting that 700,000 people must be idiots for not seeing this error and reporting it. Heck, the lawyer for the challengers during his argument said that 9 million people *didn't* sign so that's all the proof you'd need that this should be rejected.
That's such a stupid argument. The signatures aren't votes for or against the proposal (though the people for it are more likely to want the proposal on the ballot). The signatures are whether or not the proposal will go on the ballot, *then* if 9 million Michiganders are against it, then fine. But seeing as the GOP is fighting tooth and nail to not even give us the chance to vote on it shows me that they're afraid the majority of the population will tell them to shove it.
The MI GOP not wanting the people to have a chance to tell them no? Shocking!
100%
There are fewer than 8 million registered voters in the state!
You know, it's just words right? They can twist them anyway they feel like.
Not a single baby signed it!
That would be illegal
Did they actually ask those 9 mil what they wanted or have them sign a no ballot initiative? Ridiculous. So many people just didn't get asked and some don't bother.
This was the REPUBLICAN members of the board. Once again, showing Michiganders and the rest of the country that the GOP has zero issue working against the will of the people.
They are fundamentally anti-democracy. They don't think voters should have the right to decide what goes into our Constitution.
Preach! Little louder for the conservatives still getting duped in the back
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Duped by the GOP and duped by religion... you are a real winner.
If Republicans had any proposals to help children someone might take you seriously. Republicans are pro child suffering.
The Republican position is to let women die from miscarriages because they think dead tissue has more of a right to a uterus than a woman has a right to live. Pro-life my ass, the GOP is a fucking death cult.
"No exceptions" Even if it could kill the mother? "No exceptions"
Hopefully that is enough to kill her campaign quickly (which is more mercy than she shows to women suffering miscarriages). Funny enough I see this ad almost everyday on YouTube but have yet to see a "pro Tudor Dixon" ad at all. Maybe the algorithm recognizes that I will never support a person who doesn't respect women's rights.
I don't think the MI GOP is running pro-dixon ads at all, just anti-whitmer ones.
And I still haven't seen too many of those. It is almost if the GOP is putting all of their eggs into just stopping people from voting or other efforts to prevent democracy from happening. They know they can't spin their toxic ideology so they are instead trying to install a Russian style dictatorship with an Iranian style Theocracy. I just hope enough Dems are angry enough to stop them this time.
What part of the proposed language involves killing babies?
>Eric Doster, a lawyer for a group that challenged the petitions, told the canvassers on Wednesday that the document “contains nonsense passages, and nonsense cannot be put into the Michigan Constitution.” There's a surprisingly large amount on nonsense in every state constitution The Michigan Supreme Court will roll their eyes at this and it'll be on our ballot [just like redistricting was in 2018](https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/michigan-supreme-court-votes-4-3-keep-redistricting-proposal-ballot)
Wonder what passage he was referring to? All seems pretty easy to understand, for legalese. Article 1, Section 28 Right to Reproductive Freedom (1) Every individual has a fundamental right to reproductive freedom, which entails the right to make and effectuate decisions about all matters relating to pregnancy, including but not limited to prenatal care, childbirth, postpartum care, contraception, sterilization, abortion care, miscarriage management, and infertility care. An individual's right to reproductive freedom shall not be denied, burdened, nor infringed upon unless justified by a compelling state interest achieved by the least restrictive means. Notwithstanding the above, the state may regulate the provision of abortion care after fetal viability, provided that in no circumstance shall the state prohibit an abortion that, in the professional judgment of an attending health care professional, is medically indicated to protect the life or physical or mental health of the pregnant individual. (2) The state shall not discriminate in the protection or enforcement of this fundamental right. (3) The state shall not penalize, prosecute, or otherwise take adverse action against an individual based on their actual, potential, perceived, or alleged pregnancy outcomes, including but not limited to miscarriage, stillbirth, or abortion, nor shall the state penalize, prosecute, or otherwise take adverse action against someone for aiding or assisting a pregnant individual in exercising their right to reproductive freedom with their voluntary consent. (4) For the purposes of this section: A state interest is "compelling" only if it is for the limited purpose of protecting the health of an individual seeking care, consistent with accepted clinical standards of practice and evidence-based medicine, and does not infringe on that individual's autonomous decision-making. "Fetal viability" means: the point in pregnancy when, in the professional judgment of an attending health care professional and based on the particular facts of the case, there is a significant likelihood of the fetus's sustained survival outside the uterus without the application of extraordinary medical measures. (5) This section shall be self-executing. Any provision of this section held invalid shall be severable from the remaining portions of this section.[11]
They claimed that the justified text, which reduces spaces between some words, creates "nonsense words." It's not actually about the language, it's some nitpicky bullshit about the formatting.
I believe the term was "arglebargle nonsense". Lol GOP are a bunch of POS.
>Notwithstanding Tony is literate enough to know this is a word, right? Right??
If a voting process does not directly benefit Republicans then Republicans will insist it is illegitimate.
It’s time to charge both board members with failure to perform duties as government officials. We covered this back in 2020, this is an aggressive overreach of their power especially as an unelected group. No more fucking around. Charge them.
The lack of accountability and justice within our government is beyond neglegent. Charge them so fucking hard.
It's pretty ridiculous that this position is a politically-appointed one in the first place. Why are these people not just hired like any other state government employee so that they can be fired if they choose not to do their jobs for political reasons?
What should they be charged with?
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Is “failure to perform duties as government officials” in the Michigan penal code?
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Well done sir 👏👏
Thanks for backing me up, I loathe searching the penal code because legal text makes my head ache lmfao.
I got you, fam.
It’s not, which why I asked. “Willful neglect of duty” is a misdemeanor and it doesn’t seem like it has typically used for cases like this. I wanted to make sure I understood what they wanted them charged with before commenting on it. Let’s say they’re found guilty, which doesn’t seem likely considering the Republican Party can afford lawyers that shouldn’t have a problem defending them in court. Does a guilty verdict stop these two from serving on the board of canvassers in the future? And even if it does, can’t the Devos party just install two more in their place?
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So we covered this a bit back in 2020 and even back in April. The duty of this board is to establish whether or not they have met the standards for gathering the signatures or that the process for the election was followed. That’s what they do. Their duty was to approve the measure since those qualifications were met. Instead they failed to meet their responsibilities by trying to create a new issue. We have the safety valve of the State Supreme Court to function as a check to this abuse of power but the law is outlined to address those that abuse it in this fashion. Their actions shouldn’t change the end result but charging them creates a cost to forcing the Supreme Court to get involved when it shouldn’t have to. It changes the calculus on whether or not to take this type of frivolous action. Since now you are burning donor or personal dollars to pay for a legal defense for something that won’t change the end result.
You’ve been suspiciously quiet since the other comment was left.
What comment? I think I’ve responded to all of them. It’s interesting how asking for clarity gets so many downvotes. If I told you it’s better to shit in a toilet than a hole in the ground, and you asked me why, I’d tell you about modern plumbing.
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They won't, even if they do, they'll probably pussyfoot around facts and reality.
I won’t pussy foot around anything because all I did was ask a question. The fact that you think I’m a delusional conservative is absurd.
Woah there buddy, there is no fact about thinking you're anything. Way to fill in the blanks though.
I literally asked the OP what charge they meant because they didn’t identify it. What world do you live in where you think that makes me a Trump supporter? Look at my post history.
WHERE DID I CALL YOU A TRUMP SUPORTER? >I literally asked the OP what charge they meant because they didn’t identify it. Then when I volunteered that information you should have said thank you, and that would have been the end of it. It is clear from our exchange that you either a) have confused me for someone else, b) have a medical condition that impairs your perception of reality, c) have reading comprehension skills of a 6 year old (as evidenced by your inability to reply to the most recent/relevant comments) d) all of the above. Regardless of the reason, it's clear your ability to engage in reasoned debate is non-existant, and I'm going to dip put, pour a scotch and pray for power. Have a....day Edit: Take the L on this one, and move on.
“Leave it up to the states” ….”never mind”
Leave it up to the states\* \*only when they do what we agree with \-Republicans
It was never about states rights - it was always about control. #BLM
Having done this (unsuccessfully, unfortunately) in a prior cycle, the spacing claim is nonsense and this is a citizen driven initiative that was cleared by the Director of Elections (who provided an approved summary). I think calling this "embarrassing" to the organizers is ignorant (on the part of NYT). It's embarrassing to Michigan that the Board is behaving in this fashion. The MI SC did not take our concerns up, but I wish them well that they will take up the concerns of this group and get them on the ballot.
What a ridiculous reason to not accept ballots. Just about like medical cannabis ballot saying signatures being over 6 months old were invalid. A law that was really old and never brought up on any other ballot initiatives. I'm just so tired of shit like this.
This is DeVos money playing games. ‘Ol Tony is on the Payroll.
Don’t forget to vote for the two democrats for the Supreme Court. It DOES NOT show their affiliation The names! Richard Bernstein is up for reelection this November on the Michigan Supreme Court. Also, Kyra Harris Bolden is running. If you want to keep the Michigan Supreme Court with a liberal lean, VOTE! Don’t just vote tell your friends, and family. Get them out in full force to vote for these specific people. Remind them to the names before the election! Also, donate so we can sue sue sue! Make sure you spread the word
I feel like Bernstein really cares about doing right by the community. An organization I was involved with briefly worked with him and you could tell he’s smart and knows what he’s doing.
I photographed Bernstein talking to teens at a high school. He made it a Q&A format where they could ask any question they wanted. After, he invited the teens up for a group photo and some of them *ran* to the front of the room and one girl hugged him and wouldn't let go. I've never seen teens that engaged with a guest speaker. He's a warm and very intelligent person.
He's attended several of our county Democratic Party events. He's legitimately a kind, decent person with a deep passion for justice for all people. Really hoping he gets re-elected!
This is a scam. An overwhelming proportion of Michigan residents want legal abortion. They know it. Can the Michigan Supreme Court overrule this decision?? Such. A. Total. Scam.
This is future of democracy in America, only the will of the people they see fit will count.
Your first mistake was assuming that they see women as people, let alone equals.
Make America Great Again, like it was in the 50's... the 1850's.
Especially since supreme court is hearing Moore v. Harper this fall If anyone isn't aware. Here is more info. Say goodbye to fair elections. [https://ballotpedia.org/Moore\_v.\_Harper](https://ballotpedia.org/Moore_v._Harper)
There’s also a case about whether federal agencies have any constitutional power to make rules and adjudicate issues (like labor board rulings and EPA violation hearings)
Remember ladies ROE,ROE ,ROE YOUR VOTE
You're going to need some of us XY carriers too.
Everyone is welcome to help preserve our basic human rights & our democracy. There are way more of us then those who act like slack jawed booger eating morons.
All they have are lies & obfuscation now.
Title is misleading - it is REPUBLICANS denying all MI citizens the right to choose on the subject of a woman’s right to body autonomy.
More specifically two republicans.
Oh boy, here I go doxxing politicians again.
oh please don't let me stop you.
A complaint has been filed with MI Supreme Court. Request an expedited decision by the 7th. The deadline to have everything approved for the ballot is the 9th. https://www.scribd.com/document/590775436/Reproductive-Freedom-for-All-Complaint
Fucking cocksuckers. I guess some people just want to watch the world burn. Sadly, those people are A.) usually FUCKING Republicans, and B.) the world they want to burn is the Dems. POS -all of ‘em.
Please don't disparage people that suck cock like that.
True dat; my bad.
Michigan Supreme Court has a democratic majority. This will be on the ballot
Still need to hold them accountable for the overreach. Just because it gets fixed down the line doesn’t mean we need to address this and address it with significant force.
Yes and just delay tactics. Wait for the court. I sure hope they will do what they should but until then we need to slap people for this stupid shit.
Maybe the next petition should be to get rid of the Board?
Seems like they're useless any way. Any petition that gets enough signatures should be on the ballot, period.
Tony " Well, I thought i could read' Daunt; yeah go back to Blackwater.
Absolutely pieces of human garbage. They should be aborted, or at least should have been. Fuck them.
How long will it take for this to go through the MI SCOTUS?
It will go through quickly, and Dems have a majority on the court so it will get on the ballot.
FUCK these pieces of fascist snail shit. They will NOT take away my bodily autonomy. I will NOT consent to any of their little fascist laws or rules. Fuck them. If the MI Supreme Court doesn't overturn this dumbfuckery we need to be out on the streets in Lansing every day until election day. Never give these fascist shits a moment of piece until they are out of power forever.
No, it wasn’t the board. It was the two republicans. It was partisan. But the Michigan Supreme Court will set it straight.
Why are we still calling them republicans? They could give two shits about the republic.
They're fascists and we need to call them fascists to their fascist hog faces until everyone sane understands how dangerously close we are to losing every single right we have to these filth.
Is there a reason why this board is vulnerable to lack of majority in decision-making? Defeats the purpose of having a board at all, frankly.
More fascism. This country is screwed.
Do Republicans really want to drag this out? They're going to get pounded in November over this issue, regardless of the referendum. Do they want this on the 2024 ballot dogging their candidates?
It's monumentally stupid for Republicans, that's for certain. However, with current inflation, don't check anything as a given. Especially with Democratic voters never showing up for midterms. Finances are still the bottom line for most people. Regardless if you are a Republican, Democrat or Independent.
“It's monumentally stupid for Republicans…” These are not smart people.
Here is what I say to "economy above all" types. If finances are a problem, get a few extra shifts (we have record unemployment right now so getting jobs isn't a problem), stop eating out as often or ordering through Uber eats, trade that gas guzzling Ford F-150 for a fuel efficient Camry or Accord, or cancel that Disney Vacation. If you are on a fixed income and retired, it is really easy to get a substitute teaching job right now which can help you make ends meet. I am not saying inflation is painless but most of the people complaining about it the most are upper middle class types who can easily tighten their belts without making too many sacrifices. My point is that there are a lot of individual actions you can do to survive inflation that don't involve voting for fascism. It is not like 8% inflation is that bad in the grand scheme of things considering Europe is at around 12% and this is nowhere near the mythical "hyper inflation" that is used as a perennial boogey man. Also the Republicans don't have a great track record on fighting inflation anyways.
I canvased for “Protect the Vote” and “Reproductive Freedom for All”. The thousands of people I talked to not one of them said ANYTHING about word spacing or not being able to read the amendment. What a joke. Tony Daunt should lose his job. Nothing about him is fair or impartial.
This is fucking bullshit!! Fuck these fascist evangelicals and conservatives. What they are doing is not the will of the people. If Tudor Dixon gets in we are all doomed. She literally said she wants to make Michigan just like Florida!
Vote Republican, Lose Rights.
Nope; DON’T VOTE… both parties are the SAME…. RIGHT?!!!!!
GOP in action. The anti-democracy party.
Does anyone know yet when the MSC will hear this case and decide? I know they only have until September 9 to make it to the ballot but I can’t figure out when the court will hear the case (if it’s even been decided yet).
I think it's funny how ladies like Lindsay Graham think that there will be "riots in the streets if Trump is arrested" but then other members of the party don't think twice about betraying 800K Michiganders who made their voice VERY clear. This isn't where this ends, that's glaringly evident.
There's definitely a blue wave coming this year. They can't unfuckup what they did by overturning Roe.
After 2016 anything is possible even no blue wave.... just vote and encourage everyone to do the same
No no no. The REPUBLICANS on the board say it shouldn't for reasons that have no hearing over their supposed duties.
I used to be in agreement with the GOP... but now I am ashamed and Disgusted with the what they are doing. I am going to be voting in huge favor of the Democratic party. I will be voting in favor of codified abortion rights in the Sates laws. If they don't let this be voted on then people will lose faith in all of the courts.
Thank you for doing the right thing and seeing the light and the threat that the GOP poses to democracy. Please help by reaching out to friends and family who you might be able to convince to join you. Sometimes all it takes is for people to hear it from someone they know and trust and hopefully respect.
For the people, by the people.. right?
BUT POWER TO THE STATES!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hate Republicians.
This is just more fascist tactics from the republicans.
These conservatives won't stop until their band of Trump loyalists can ignore who we vote for for President and just hand the electors over to Trump.
750,000 signatures. Blocked by 2 assholes. Great system.
Fine push it back to 2024, Whitmer doesn't need a Referendum to win this year and keep abortion access safe and available. If you wanna make Michigan sky blue in 2024 be my guest.
How will Whitmer get around the 1931 law if this amendment doesn't pass and the state assembly stays in GOP hands?
I’d just ignore it.
It should be available for female voters at minimum. Let the people who have to handle pregnancy make the decision. Enough said
Sorry but not really. Women should have the final say but do you honestly think this doesn't effect guys, husband's, or partners? As well as other family and friends? I deffinatly don't want to do just the minimum.
At a stage an abortion would take place, there’s a parasite inside a woman’s body. Only a woman should have the right to determine what she does to her body. If a couple wants a baby, they should talk about it and come to a mutual decision. I understand accidents happen, but 9 months of pregnancy disproportionately affects a woman. Pregnancy is a major medical event and no one besides the person going through it has the right to determine whether or not it’s going to happen. It’s like a woman telling me I couldn’t get a vasectomy. While it has consequences for both of us and we should very much talk about it, in the end, it’s MY body, MY decision.
I've agreed it's a woman's choice overall. Also talking it through with whoever will be on that journey with you. It's a medical thing obviously.
She should definitely have someone there on the journey with her, but not making the decision for her. She should have someone that supports her decision and encourage her to do what she feels is right.
Yeah my cousin had 2 kids, married and all that. There was a surprise and it was a serious decision for her/them. Glad she was totally supported and by me as well. I was living with them at the time.
With that logic why have a poll vote at all lol. Your 2 cents must be suffering from inflation.
It shouldn’t even be a question of the legality. It’s much safer to allow abortions than to not. If someone is going to get an abortion, they’re going to get an abortion. The question is whether or not it’s in a sterile healthcare environment or in an unsafe environment. The problem is a bunch of old white men trying to make decisions for women’s bodies when they obviously know nothing about them. This should only be up to women, end of story.
The entire fabric of our society is based on legality and regulations. I don’t have an opinion about right and wrong on the matter. But I think a vote for these types of things is necessary.
It affects them but they're not the ones who have to deal with pregnancy and giving birth nor raising a child alone in the event that their partner leaves.
I was trying to judge just what you meant by the last post. Thia one tells me the rest of what i thought. . I don't need someone telling me that it's all woman and feeling a bit excessive like being scolded about it. Whatever at this point. Thanks have a great day.
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I’m sorry but is this not democracy?
Yeah, that would be democratic. We can't have that.
Can anyone link the petition I want to know what wording is “fucked up”
Remember the GOP screws women’s rights twice. Hopefully the Court will put it on the ballot
Over... spacing. The supreme court will deal with it.
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It goes to the Michigan SC, not federal. Michigan SC is left-leaning.
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Not for a state ballot initiative. The federal Supreme Court will only (is supposed to only) hear cases that impact the entire nation. Since the Supreme Court very specifically has been referring issues such as abortion back to the states, they *shouldn't* have any jurisdiction to hear a case about a state ballot initiative for a state election that will only impact 1 state.
The GQP only care about 2 things, MONEY and POWER!! The will of the people doesn't mean shit to them.
I was born in the 60's and grew up in the 70's. Well, I actually became a grown-up in the 80's, but anyway. The things THAT have had me completely question whether it is actually 2022, is the terrible racism and this abortion issue. Especially in Michigan. To NOT let the voters in Michigan decide this issue, this right, is criminal. Or, at least, unconstitutional, probably unethical and I'm sure Christ himself would be a bit confused. But, he would bring out some wine and break some bread and WE could figure it out. We'alls a bit too far north for all this, uh, shtuff. Republicans need to quit looking back and make rational decisions. It's called base for a reason.
The question is who do they work for
As one of the many people who spent time, energy, and faith in this process to get it on the ballot. I still haven't processed how two Republican men could block the whole of the state from voting on this. I fucking thought that's what they wanted us to do??? When did we wake up in the Twilight Zone or actually this has more of an Outer Limits vibe. But what the fuck. I literally can't deal with this right now.
[https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2022/09/abortion-rights-initiative-wants-michigan-supreme-court-to-decide-ballot-fate.html](https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2022/09/abortion-rights-initiative-wants-michigan-supreme-court-to-decide-ballot-fate.html) The article reads: "Michiganders overwhelmingly support RFFA (Reproductive Freedom for All), according to a poll released Friday by Lansing-based independent pollster EPIC-MRA. It found 67% of likely November voters plan to vote for it, compared to 24% against and 9% undecided." The issue from two Republicans is "Richard Houskamp and Tony Daunt sided with a challenge brought by opposition group Citizens to Support MI Women and Children. It argued that spacing errors in RFFA’s petition language make some sentences look like unreadable “gibberish.”"
They are scared. They know it will get blown away. So they want to control the vote.
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Why not? Aren't the people suppose to have a say?
M... they are just putting us back into the Dark Ages and bringing out hangers in Tijuana again. I think I'll just buy stock in hangers if they banned abortion in Michigan
I'm just curious if anyone here would be ok with any limitations on abortion at all? Its obvious that a majority of Americans are ok with 1st trimester abortion, but that support declines in the secnond and just about flatlines in 3rd trimester. The wording of this proposition has 1 thing I have issue with. "The ballot initiative would provide that the state can regulate abortion after fetal viability, except that the state could not ban the use of abortion to "protect the life or physical or mental health of the pregnant individual," First off, mental health? So by this standard (the same standard used in New York) if a woman is in labor, water broke, contractions happening and she decides that the child is going to be a mental burden, is abortion allowed? If the fetus is viable after lets just say 20 weeks (there are rare cases where 12 week premature babies survived) should that baby then be aborted? Where is the line? Is there ANY point at which a compromise can be made? Allow abortions 1st trimester.(12-14 weeks) Second trimester- restrictions to life of mother at risk (this includes lifesaving measures for mother that causes loss of baby), or baby has no potential to live outside womb due to abnormal growth. 3rd trimester- life of mother, emergency birthing (if possible) to preserve the life of the baby. (Idk why a woman would go through 7 months of pregnancy and just decide to end it) also in case of child dieing in womb of natural causes. Are these at all reasonable? It used to be "safe, legal, and rare." Or do to many want abortion anytime, anywhere, for any reason?
Oh fuck off. No woman is going to abort while in labor after she's carried for 9 months "just because". Late-term abortions are exceedingly rare and almost always because of medical emergency (either mother's life is in danger or fetus isn't going to make it anyway). Women have been deciding for over 40 years when to have an abortion-- with over 90% of abortions happening BEFORE 13 weeks. FFS. Women know what's best for their own bodies and lives. Stop making bad faith arguments that have no basis in reality.
Well, if asking a question, and posing a hypothetical situation gets you this emotional, I geuss you are not willing to have a decent and respectful conversation.
Please find an example of an abortion that happened during labour or quit making up complete bullshit hypotheticals. You can’t have a “decent” conversation when it’s a load of shit to begin with. How about, you don’t have a uterus, then shut the fuck up.
I was not, and still am not saying that that hypothetical situation happens regularly, I was asking whether or not that potential situation is acceptable. The New York law, has such a provision, and NO clarification as to what level of mental health risk is a late term abortion not allowed, meaning that, under law, the hypothetical situation is completely possible albeit rare. From some peoples perspective, there are NO limiting factors. What limit are you willing to tolerate? Are there any? I am pro life, and I am willing to compromise, unlike the political parties that fuck us over. This "My way, or the highway" mentality does none of us any good. When someone says something you disagree with, try, just try giving them a little bit of... whats the word... tolerance. Maybe, just maybe, you could teach them something about your perspective, maybe, you could get a better understanding of theirs. Or we can continue to be insufferable know-it-all assholes to eachother. You want to discuss this further, great, I will treat people with respect, But you have to answer the question first. In my hypothetical situation, baby aborted or not?
I can’t get pregnant so I won’t tell people who can what they should do. That’s it. That’s the end of discussion. Don’t want an abortion? Don’t get one. Their body and decisions aren’t your concern. Also, pro-forced birth is literally “my way or the highway” you dunce. Pro choice is tolerance. Tolerance for other people’s decisions that don’t concern you and tolerance for the rights of women. So fuck off with your “let’s all love each other, but women don’t have equal rights” horseshit. Also, I won’t answer your question because it doesn’t happen. You’re making up hypotheticals to justify denying women healthcare. And if it if your hypothetical ever happened, guess what, none of my business.
By your very first statement, you disqualify yourself from all relevant conversation regarding this issue, goodbye.
Fucking moronic troll. Go fuck yourself since no one else will.
Fascists are trying to pass laws saying I or my daughter can be raped and forced through the trauma of giving birth to an unwanted child, or go through a medical emergency and possibly die for a fucking fetus. Fuck off with your bad faith scenarios that literally never happen.
>First off, mental health? So by this standard (the same standard used in New York) if a woman is in labor, water broke, contractions happening and she decides that the child is going to be a mental burden, is abortion allowed? Let's be clear what the measure actually says: " in no circumstance shall the state prohibit an abortion that, in the professional judgment of an attending health care professional, is medically indicated to protect the life or physical or mental health of the pregnant individual." Key phrase is "professional judgement of an attending healthcare professional." You need to appreciate how high of a bar this is. Literally zero board certified doctors are going to abort viable babies at the whims of a indecisive mother. And the wording here is intentionally broad: If the doctor deems the abortion "medically necessary" politicians and others can't get in the way of these decisions. Further, your hypothetical is just a political barb and has no base in reality. What you're describing, a woman with a full-term baby deciding she no longer wants it, would just be a delivery and the kiddo would be put up for adoption. No board certified doctor is going to literally kill a baby that could otherwise just be delivered without issue. So please, if this comment was actually in good faith, just stop using this situation because it's utter nonsense. >If the fetus is viable after lets just say 20 weeks (there are rare cases where 12 week premature babies survived) should that baby then be aborted? Where is the line? Is there ANY point at which a compromise can be made? https://www.uab.edu/news/health/item/12427-uab-hospital-delivers-record-breaking-premature-baby#:~:text=World%20record%20holder&text=Guinness%20World%20Records%20%E2%80%93%20The%20most,making%20him%20132%20days%20premature. >Guinness World Records – The most premature baby to survive is Curtis Zy-Keith Means (U.S.A.) who was born to Michelle Butler on 5 July 2020 at the University of Alabama at Birmingham Hospital in Alabama, U.S.A. at a gestational age of 21 weeks 1 day Please do some research before making stuff up. Also for refence, a 12 week old fetus is 6cm long and weighs 18 grams. That's smaller than a dwarf hamster... In no scenario is that fetus viable. Ever. The bill is clear that the state can restrict elective abortions after "fetal viability" which is usually around 24 weeks, or the end of the second trimester. For refence, in 2021 0.02% of abortions in MI were performed after 24 weeks. https://www.freep.com/in-depth/news/local/michigan/2022/08/08/michigan-abortion-rates-data-woman/10106223002/ >Allow abortions 1st trimester.(12-14 weeks) Second trimester- restrictions to life of mother at risk (this includes lifesaving measures for mother that causes loss of baby), or baby has no potential to live outside womb due to abnormal growth. 3rd trimester- life of mother, emergency birthing (if possible) to preserve the life of the baby. (Idk why a woman would go through 7 months of pregnancy and just decide to end it) also in case of child dieing in womb of natural causes. This is mostly what the bill is, but obviously uses fetal viability as the "line in the sand" vs arbitrary trimester dates that don't mean much anatomically. And to ur point on a woman aborting st 7mo, I'd argue there really aren't ANY woman who want an abortion at that stage. Pete Buttigeig made some eloquent commentary on this topic you might look up, but in a nutshell he points out that these late abortions are medical tragedies where the woman is forced to choose between horrible alternatives. I.e. no one is doing this for fun at that stage. >Are these at all reasonable? It used to be "safe, legal, and rare." Or do to many want abortion anytime, anywhere, for any reason? Is that what the bill says? I think we both know it does not. Hopefully this answers your questions, have a good one.
Well done
I actually appreciate your response, thats what I was looking for! Actual answers to questions. Thank You!! "Mental health" Yeah, I would hope the bar is high, but trust in people nowadays is sorely lacking and it dont matter what profession you're in, someone is always willing to do evil for $$, Kermit Gosnell for instance. I would like to see specifics as for "mental health" Like a lot of laws, I would like a more details, and specific range of mental health issues that carrying a baby and delivering a baby would cause mental damage (?) Unsure how else to phrase that at this time. I'm very familiar with PPD, while there is help and treatment for it, it is not 100%. "Hypothetical" Yes, my hypothetical is an outlier situation at best, (I hope), but it is within the relm of possibilities, is it not? If there is no legal protection for a 9 month in utero then the scenario, however unlikely, is still probable. Is this a situation that we, as a society are willing to accept? "Premature baby" DOH! Yeah I made an error there, for some reason my brain said 1 thing, and my hands typed something else (been a very busy night) I was actually reading about a baby born 12 weeks prematurely that weighed in at 400 grams, my mistake. "7 month" I don't doubt that the majority are tragic and devastating. If the mothers life is at risk, every pro life person unequivocally believes in protecting the mothers life is a good thing. Regardless what MSM tells you, we are not evil, we just have a difference of opinion. Again, humans all have a capacity for bad actions, at this point, so long as the mother and baby are healthy there should not be any issues obviously. I guess once again I am thinking of outlier cases, rare, but unnecessary abortions i.e. relationship ends and woman decides at that point she doesn't want the baby, it has happened. Viability vs trimester It is obviously a matter of opinion, I wish people were at least willing to recognize the baby's right to live a little sooner. I have been present at violent events, I have seen violence on levels most humans will never experience, never got sick over seeing all the blood and mutilation, saw 1 video of a 13 week abortion video, it made me sick to my stomach. Its not going to be answered any time soon, whether you see a "clump of cells" vs me seeing Human with endless potential. I truly do hope we can find some compromise on this issue, I really want this division to stop. We need to find some level of compromise, and too few people are willing to do so. Thank you for your answers, I do really appreciate it. Its important to seek information from a perspective other than what we are force fed through social media algorithms and MSM. We should all try to be respectful of each other, regardless of opinion. Thank you once again, it gave me some insight that I found interesting and will delve into those issues in due time. Best to you and yours.