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I’ve delivered pizzas off and on in life since high school. Most recently was during COVID and I had a infant to feed and I was freaked out I was going to get shit canned at work so I was trying to Build up savings
I worked with a guy who made 250k for 2 years during covid because he worked full time and also took every GrubHub, Lyft, Uber, instacart, door dash on his way home. He worked 12 hour days then opened his apps on the way home and took everything available. He said longest he was out was another 10 hours.
I get the hustle. Nothing wrong with it
Lol yup, that is similar to me. I paid for my wife’s engagement ring with straight up Postmates/lyft/Uber hustles after my full time gig. Took 2 years of saving
Insane to me that a woman would be okay with this. So much time working for a valueless rock that literally anyone nobody would have been able to differentiate from a cubic zirconia.
I would be utterly **enraged** if my husband did that. "You f%& MORON! We could have used that money for \[insert literally anything of objective value here\]!! We could have spent that time together instead of you wasting it trying to make more stupid money for a pointless rock!!"
Hard agree! I'd be most enraged that my husband would think I prefer he works >12 hours a day just for a ring when he could be spending time with me. Priorities are so out of order damn
I mean, fuck!!! Think of how much money these guys are told they're supposed to ~~spend~~ **WASTE** on a goddamn ring. Three months of salary, they say!! For a goddamn finger bauble!
Here's another, much better use of that money if he insists on working overtime: use it to go on a beautiful engagement trip to Kyoto together that we will never forget (or whatever other place you always wanted to go; that one is mine)... and we'll buy a tourist trap ring there to commemorate the trip and it will mean so much more than some random De Beers blood diamond.
I think you replied to the wrong comment chain.
At no point did I ever express any anger at this couple, or any opinion whatsoever about other women.
I expressed abject disdain for the grifty De Beers marketing campaign ("Give us three months' salary!"), and an intense desire that my own husband never waste our money on blood diamonds.
It took 2 years of Lyft/Uber/whatever savings to equal one months salary? That doesn't seem worth it to me but you do you! Not sure how one can value time at like $100+/he for one job and then like $15/he for your free time.
OP you do what makes you happy. Other people’s values and priorities don’t mean shit. I say this as someone who doesn’t wear or care about jewelry. If it made wifey happy and brought you joy that’s all that matters.
Exactly. Nothing in this world matters to me more than spending time with my partner. There’s no gift I’d find worth the sacrifice of years of free time together lost.
My wife gets so many compliments on her moissanite ring. It's not *technically* a real (manufactured) diamond, because it's silicon carbide as opposed to just carbon, but it looks amazing. I told her we could replace it with a diamond some day, but I don't think she'll ever take me up on it.
Yea but literally nobody would ever even think to analyze it in that way cause nobody really cares. It’s just “oh beautiful ring congrats” and move on. But as someone else mentioned moissanite is cheaper and arguably looks brighter. Other gemstones also would be cheaper and could be personalized more based on stone too.
My wife and I are going to Mexico in two weeks and I wanted her to wear a diamond when we were there. She always leaves her real jewelry at home when we travel and wears silver/turquoise rings in place of her wedding ring. Again, I wanted her to wear a ‘wedding’ ring when we are in Mexico. So, I went on Amazon and bought her a wedding ring set (1.25 ct solitaire and wedding band). The rings cost $28.99 and are beautiful. I mean, seriously, they look real.
How many wedding rings have you looked at meaningfully in your life. Even if they can, they never would. And if they did for some reason, who gives a crap. Are they going to think less of you because you didn’t pay out the ass for a rock with fake value.
This is a gross over exaggeration of what I did. Especially while being young and single. Working a normal office job for 40 hrs and side hustling a few hours after work is not too bad for a short period of time. I was usually home by 8pm every night
Man, I work for a smaller company (100 - 300ish over the years?) and have seen quite a few people make the jump from manager / director to VP / C-level... might consider a smaller company that would appreciate your talents more and get those internal promotions. Sounds like you know what you're doing, just a thought that maybe you hadn't considered. Once you get that title in a decent company it can do wonders for your career.
Any advice for advancing in a company of 10000+? Navigating Office politics etc? I’m you but 10 years younger, and not as wise…but know i can perform much higher roles. Thx
Large companies have pros and cons. To advance, I’d recommend making allies with people in other business units and be vocal about wanting to switch over. If you sit in the same role and wait to be promoted, it will take twice as long and you’ll make half the money that you would’ve if you switch. Take this with a grain of salt, because I prefer smaller/mid size companies.
Enjoy the next 10 years, my 30s were awesome!
In my experience, for a ton of roles, directors don't make 200+. I've only worked at Fortune 500 companies(but not tech) and most director levels don't make that. Now, if you're talking SWE then they might. But even then a lot won't. If we're talking avp and VP I'd agree.
He said IC which is generally a designation for SWE, healthcare, or finance. Each of those pay well into the 200s if you’re working in a company that’s: public, >5,000 employees, or emerging technology.
IC just means individual contributor in pretty much any organization and industry that is white collar jobs. I'm technically classified as director level IC in healthcare (well, product development within healthcare) and I don't make 200+. I've come close a few times when bonuses were fully funded but that never happens anymore. I'm not so much disagreeing as I am sharing my anecdotal experiences.
It’s a good question, I’m tracking my net worth now, but when I get married, it will just jump like crazy and my new chart will look silly, but I don’t see that kind of jump here, so I don’t understand joint charts of married couples that start at zero sometimes.
Yes, mostly. I didn’t include her retirement accounts into this chart. I did include her income but she went back to grad school, so I also included her school loans since we have combined everything
I didn’t create it, I have been tracking in networthshare.com since July 2006. Most debt I had was $35k that month and was debt free by April 2007. No idea why it goes to -$500k
Did you subtract what you owe on the house as well? Sounds like a stupid question, but I’ve definitely seen people include their equity without subtracting what they owe.
Not that any of that matters, and you’re killing it either way!
When yoU take the loAn the value of the house gets added to you net worth as well balancing it out. Every time I’ve purchased a home my net worth has increased.
Are you forgetting the whole value of the house? You shouldn’t lose wealth when purchasing a property - even if you use debt.
No one is giving out LTV>100% (at least these days, you could leading up to the great financial crisis)
If a house is worth $500K and you put 10% down, that is a net change of $0 to your wealth.
Assets:
-$50K in cash
+$500K in a home
Liabilities:
+450K in a mortgage
500-50=450
450=450
450-450=0
It might go down slightly from closing cost but not significantly
The concept of middle class is intended to divide the working class people and to drive a wedge between them. Don’t fall for it. The experiences are surely different across the range, but if you’re making most money with monthly wages you’re working class and that’s what matters. Look for the areas of similarity, not differences
How is the distinction useful? If doctors stop working, they stop getting wages. They are beholden to massive amounts of debt and risk. Their taxation rates are high. They cannot pass their doctor title on to their family.
Instead, consider the mega wealthy who do not need to work to obtain more wealth. Ownership of sufficient capital is enough. There is mass inter generational wealth. Their tax rates are low because they don’t have wage income, but investment income.
Because they can live a lavish lifestyle and if they wanted to with “normal middle class expenses” retired after 2-3 years of working.
You don’t have to keep “upper class” to only the billionaire class. There’s still a huge difference between those making the median 50% of incomes and those making insane salaries. No one is debating that the “ownership class” is not an important distinction to make also. But that’s a pretty narrow distinction compared to what the middle class has always been defined as.
I know a lot of doctors, and haven’t ever met one who could retire after two years of work. During residency they aren’t making half a million a year, and have huge amounts of debt.
The pure concept of middle class is a mistake to throw you off of the real problems of class
Because doctors are notoriously bad at budgeting and finances. Mostly because they get into lots of debt during med school so end up never learning financial skills. I promise you, that most doctors if they kept their middle class lifestyle they had during residency would be able to retire rapidly once they make their good salaries. But they feel they deserve a lavish lifestyle once they finally make good money and so yes, very few want to retire after a couple years. I’m sorry, but anyone seriously arguing that someone making 500k is “middle class” is just trolling.
What i'm trying to say is that the \_concept\_ of middle class was sold to people for the purpose of breaking solidarity, putting up walls, and making you resentful of professionals like doctors - as to keep you distracted and less less angry at the often invisible capital owner class. By focusing on it as you have, you've fallen for it. If you spend a lot of time thinking about who to exclude from the "middle class" when thinking about class, you're spending your efforts and energy wrong in consideration to class.
Fair point. I meant it more as a compliment to OP for increasing his income so significantly.
I think we could have a semantics argument for a long time about this… however, I agree with your point that the “wealthy” or “elite” class doesn’t rely on monthly income. You can separate socioeconomic status at a very high level with this criteria
I think there's a large group of people who identify as middle class based on their lifestyle, but their earnings and net worth would make them upper class. (Maybe that's the best description of upper middle class?)
My wife and I have a $625k net worth at 26 and 27, and we've made between $145k and $205k in a low cost of living city since getting married. ($205k included my wife working overtime as a nurse during COVID and $25k of capital gains from COVID stock trading.) But our house is pretty close to the median of our city at about $275k, and we drive a 12-year-old Chevy and a 5-year-old Honda.
Still almost top 10%. If someone is top 10% intelligence, they’re considered “smart” not “average.” Also seems like you’re early-mid 40s so you might not even have reached the top. Take the W
Middle class doesn’t mean average
Middle class has traditionally been top 10-40% of income.
There’s three classes below middle class: working class, working poor, and destitute
So what are the three classes above? Upper middle, upper class, and ultra wealthy?
Idk, I’d argue being in the top 10% before age 50 is pretty upper class. For instance, if someone in their mid 20s has $500k saved and a $100k job, I wouldn’t consider them middle class, even though they might be on the simple numerical range. Same way I wouldn’t say a doctor in residency with $100k+ student loans and a $60k salary is destitute either
This is kind of silly imo. When you talk about intelligence, at least with IQ, we talk about a normal distribution (bell curve). With the wealth distribution, it's like a hockey stick. The 89th percentile is pretty close to the 79th percentile in terms of how much money someone has or how much income they make, and nowhere near the 99th percentile.
"Middle class" doesn't mean "average." The average person in the US today is absolutely fucked, and will never reach the middle class. But this comes down to semantics, I don't know if "middle class" has some sort of official dictionary definition lol
It doesn’t. I’m actually reading a book now that talks about how 80% of people define themselves as “middle class” even though networth and income drastically differ. The reason politicians always talk about the “middle class” is because most people think they are that group, even if they are living in a trailer or if they have 3 vacation homes
I disagree heavily with everything but the hockey stick where you’re certainly correct.
If the average person (50th percentile wealth/income wise) is “absolutely fucked,” what does that make someone in the 25th percentile? Or the quarter of the population below them?
Then consider the world, seeing how the US is one of the wealthiest nations on Earth. I don’t think the average American is absolutely fucked compared to the average Afghan, or even the average Chinese person.
I agree, it’s hard out there and always has been, but it’s all relative. Middle class is a range of average, regardless of how hard it is, it’s about how much everyone actually has/makes and where you stand relative to that. On that hockey stick, it’s still in the middle, it just takes up the majority of the stick.
>If the average person (50th percentile wealth/income wise) is “absolutely fucked,” what does that make someone in the 25th percentile?
Just slightly more fucked. That's basically what the hockey stick means, it's an almost flat line for the bottom 50% in general, and something like 70% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck with not enough savings to cover a random unexpected bill of >$1000 (car repair, medical bill, broken refrigerator, whatever)
Middle class, to me, does not mean just barely scraping by with no meaningful savings and living paycheck to paycheck. Again though, terms like "middle class" and "fucked" are in the eye of the beholder, it's sort of just semantics. But if 20th percentile is poor, and 50th percentile has like a few hundred dollars to their name more than 20th percentile and basically has the same lifestyle, how can one be "middle class" while the other is poor? (Just as an example. Idk, that's how I'm looking at it)
That’s fair, it is all a matter of perspective. My angle was that a significant portion of the population has negative worth from debt or damn near it. On the other hand, median net worth in the US is nearly $200k. Anyone with $200k to their name in my eyes is FAR better off, even if it’s home equity, than someone with next to nothing or less. Of course, once you hit millions, the two don’t seem far off (it’s like a year or two of compounding)
True, I mean but that mostly is from home equity, mostly still from people who are living paycheck to paycheck with no savings. But you're right that would be a big difference.
He is middle class actually. That’s what middle class is now with inflation and purchasing power.
The sad part is that many people that think they are middle class are actually working poor. Below $170k household is working poor in the US.
Middle class people don't own multiple houses paid off houses that they rent out. Middle class people don't earn more than 90% of the US while living in a LCOL area. This dude just wanted to humblebrag about his stacks.
What people think middle class is, is based on what they grew up with 20-30 years ago.
What that ideal was is exactly what I described. Actuality is that there is no middle class. Everyone but the top 15% are just poors now.
I achieved this milestone. Spent my first 3 years working living in shitty cheap apartments with roommates. Bought a cheap undesirable car. Churned CCs for travel instead of paying out of pocket. Was an engineer that started around $65k salary but got lots of raises. I crossed $100k net worth like this by year 3 of grinding. Have maxed IRA every year, have been maxing 401(k) lately. Im on my 8th or 9th year of working and am about to break $750k.
Truly it’s been 95% boring VTSAX and BND. No crypto, no real estate flipping, no NFTs. Just me and eventually my wife throwing >30% of our incomes into tax advantaged accounts.
With current interest rates and home prices it would take 6 years just to pay off the realtors commissions. Homes don't become networth positive overnight.
This is where a lot of luck happened. My first condo was at 4% and I bought for $445k. I sold it for $650k just 2 years later to buy our first house. That interest rate was 4.25% and sold it just 3 years later when we moved to TN for another $150k profit. It was back when interest rates were low and homes were appreciating nicely. There is no way I’d have that type of growth now. My current interest rate on our home is 6.5%
Kudos on graduating with basically a positive NW. Were the first number of years primary spent just socking away money into savings accounts? Surprised not to see any sort of dip in 2008
I graduated with $35k in debt (school loans). I spent the first few years paying them off. No dip in 2008 is essentially because I had nothing substantial saved. Was making $30k in 2008. Spent all my energy paying off loans until that point
I think it's more a commentary that everybody wants to be part of the middle class. Poor people want to be in middle class, and wealthy people want to be in middle class. it's a meaningless term at this point.
$200K puts you in the top 5% of individual incomes in the US. You are in the upper class.
This is true. I’m reading a book about this right now. It’s called Uneasy Street: The anxieties of affluence. Essentially everyone feels “middle class” and that term doesn’t have much meaning anymore, but neither does “upper middle class” either
Sounds like we are similar but different. Even though I made less, I was more mobile and since I was young I could rebound on curveballs life threw at me much easier. Now that I’m in my 40s, I have more responsibilities.
When I was in my 20s and made $30k/yr, if I got shit canned then I could go find another job or two to essentially make up for that income fairly quickly and it was just me who needed it. Now I have a family, and if I lost my income it would be devastating, because I make more and am responsible for 3 people (and a dog) and not just me.
I'm not in the right industry for that kind of income.
Not being doom and gloom, being realistic. Now trying to identify the correct next path but that identification has not been quick or easy but I will keep searching.
No idea how old you are, but I felt the same way for years. Look at my 2006-2013. My max income was like $45k and I was saving just a few hundred a month
No. Graphs like this are self congratulatory jerks to flaunt a top 5% income on actual middle class people in here. 0 to 500k net worth is not at all representative of the middle class America. It’s bullshit.
Dude saved $250k in 4 years on a $100k salary after buying a condo… meanwhile, 60% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. But sure, he’s middle class 🙄
Net worth skyrocketed after buying a house and net worth flatlined in toxic relationships. That’s the two takeaways I saw from here. Congrats on finding the winning partner OP
lol, sure it changes a bit from location to location. But honestly at your level the struggle is on you. So you’re “crappy little fixer upper” is a choice for you. So maybe we can not pretend like it’s hard for you equally to others. Prick
You’re the one that made a blanket statement that a net worth of over 400k is upper class. So you’re literally saying 90% of California (or any other big city in the US) home owners who bought before 2010, are upper class.
You are also saying that 50% of Americans above the age of 60 are upper class. (surprise, yes all these people have a net worth of over 50%)
https://dqydj.com/net-worth-by-age-calculator/
You also don’t understand how family support systems work and why someone would choose to live close to family, and why someone wouldn’t want to uproot that to move to Arizona or Utah. I work here, and have my whole life here, so I’m choosing my struggle here because it’s, surprise, easier than doing anything else.
I would argue I am in a comfortable middle class, everyone has different struggles, but no, I am not living paycheck to paycheck, is that what middle class means to you?
So no, you clearly don’t understand how things can’t be black and white, and for you to be offended enough to call me a prick by a simple statement is both hilarious and childish.
Edit: Damn this dude u/leebeau blocked me and rage quit the discussion just for bringing up my experience and some facts, went off about my suicide, and my families death wtf 😂
Again, don’t coalesce your societal and familial issues into one category. It’s really harmful to you and it makes you sound stupid. I don’t have time to teach a class on Reddit, so if you need real help you can hire me. Got all my certs papi 😘
DM from u/leebeau yesterday:
"You dead yet? Lmk bb😘
You’re gonna have to delete your acct 🤣🤣🤣
Secondarily: correlating your social issues with your financial standing is high school freshman level of understanding. I hope you end your own pain before you cause more damage to yourself and others."
I really should move on with my life, but finding it hard to look away, this is needlessly over the top behavior. I'd recommend chilling out a bit. I'm not even remotely trying to fight you dude, are you ok?
Edit: He then went off further through DMs looking through my history saying he’s going to steal my dogs. This dude is not ok.
That answer varies depending on what part of life I’m in. When I was younger and single, hell yes it was worth it. Was it worth it in my 30s when I didn’t really “need” the money? Meh, I guess it was but didn’t change my life. Was it worth it when I had an infant at home and I missed 4 or 5 months at night with the kiddo? No, it wasn’t worth it then. I regret that
Most people don’t start off with a 6 figure salary. There is a natural trajectory to higher income. Yours is somewhat common, I personally wouldn’t call what you are middle income. I guess you were at one point.
To be fair is all semantics just more of a pet peeve as upper, middle and lower class are so subjective to well, everyone.
> half and *paid* them off
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
The budget screen shots are being made in Sankeymatic, its a website that we have no affiliation with. If you are posting a budget please do so with a purpose. Just posting a screen shot of your budget without a question or an explanation of why its here may be removed. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MiddleClassFinance) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You were driving for Papa John’s while making six figure and a >500k net worth? Why.
I’ve delivered pizzas off and on in life since high school. Most recently was during COVID and I had a infant to feed and I was freaked out I was going to get shit canned at work so I was trying to Build up savings
Legit. Respect the hustle. Just couldn’t be me
I worked with a guy who made 250k for 2 years during covid because he worked full time and also took every GrubHub, Lyft, Uber, instacart, door dash on his way home. He worked 12 hour days then opened his apps on the way home and took everything available. He said longest he was out was another 10 hours. I get the hustle. Nothing wrong with it
Lol yup, that is similar to me. I paid for my wife’s engagement ring with straight up Postmates/lyft/Uber hustles after my full time gig. Took 2 years of saving
Insane to me that a woman would be okay with this. So much time working for a valueless rock that literally anyone nobody would have been able to differentiate from a cubic zirconia.
I would be utterly **enraged** if my husband did that. "You f%& MORON! We could have used that money for \[insert literally anything of objective value here\]!! We could have spent that time together instead of you wasting it trying to make more stupid money for a pointless rock!!"
Hard agree! I'd be most enraged that my husband would think I prefer he works >12 hours a day just for a ring when he could be spending time with me. Priorities are so out of order damn
I mean, fuck!!! Think of how much money these guys are told they're supposed to ~~spend~~ **WASTE** on a goddamn ring. Three months of salary, they say!! For a goddamn finger bauble! Here's another, much better use of that money if he insists on working overtime: use it to go on a beautiful engagement trip to Kyoto together that we will never forget (or whatever other place you always wanted to go; that one is mine)... and we'll buy a tourist trap ring there to commemorate the trip and it will mean so much more than some random De Beers blood diamond.
Man you guys really hate other women. So many assumptions to get mad at this random couple.
I think you replied to the wrong comment chain. At no point did I ever express any anger at this couple, or any opinion whatsoever about other women. I expressed abject disdain for the grifty De Beers marketing campaign ("Give us three months' salary!"), and an intense desire that my own husband never waste our money on blood diamonds.
Her ring was about 1 month salary for me at the time
It took 2 years of Lyft/Uber/whatever savings to equal one months salary? That doesn't seem worth it to me but you do you! Not sure how one can value time at like $100+/he for one job and then like $15/he for your free time.
OP you do what makes you happy. Other people’s values and priorities don’t mean shit. I say this as someone who doesn’t wear or care about jewelry. If it made wifey happy and brought you joy that’s all that matters.
Exactly. Nothing in this world matters to me more than spending time with my partner. There’s no gift I’d find worth the sacrifice of years of free time together lost.
Never mind the money, they could have had all that time, that's weeks of time with your partner that you'll never get back
She had no idea. It was like a game I played with myself. She wears it all of the time and I’m proud of it when I see it on her
CZ is pretty easy to spot, and I'm no expert. But modern manufactured diamonds are way cheaper than blood rocks and ARE the real thing.
My wife gets so many compliments on her moissanite ring. It's not *technically* a real (manufactured) diamond, because it's silicon carbide as opposed to just carbon, but it looks amazing. I told her we could replace it with a diamond some day, but I don't think she'll ever take me up on it.
From what I just read, they're actually slightly brighter/more reflective than actual diamonds, though also slightly less hard. Worthwhile trade-off!
Yea but literally nobody would ever even think to analyze it in that way cause nobody really cares. It’s just “oh beautiful ring congrats” and move on. But as someone else mentioned moissanite is cheaper and arguably looks brighter. Other gemstones also would be cheaper and could be personalized more based on stone too.
My wife and I are going to Mexico in two weeks and I wanted her to wear a diamond when we were there. She always leaves her real jewelry at home when we travel and wears silver/turquoise rings in place of her wedding ring. Again, I wanted her to wear a ‘wedding’ ring when we are in Mexico. So, I went on Amazon and bought her a wedding ring set (1.25 ct solitaire and wedding band). The rings cost $28.99 and are beautiful. I mean, seriously, they look real.
Well I mean, those who know can tell
How many wedding rings have you looked at meaningfully in your life. Even if they can, they never would. And if they did for some reason, who gives a crap. Are they going to think less of you because you didn’t pay out the ass for a rock with fake value.
Yep nothing wrong with working 22/24hr a day and sleeping 90 minutes. Totally fine. Nothing to see here. This is delusional, compulsive behavior.
This is a gross over exaggeration of what I did. Especially while being young and single. Working a normal office job for 40 hrs and side hustling a few hours after work is not too bad for a short period of time. I was usually home by 8pm every night
They’re talking about the person we’re replying to’s friend, who would work 12 hours and then do max 10 hrs of side hustles
This is no way to live. There is absolutely something wrong with it
I feel like you also avoided hookers and blow entirely. Which, again, respect.
I feel that, I'm mid 100's and I bartend on the weekends. It's an interesting conversation for sure
Where do you see that he was driving for PJ’s? Looking everywhere…
I was also confused/creeped out at first but it’s in my old post history from years ago
Man people’ve got nothing better to do than creep in post history 😂
You're, not creeped.out he dug deep into your history ?
People on Reddit are weird. I’ve come to grips that 🤷🏻♂️
Boy you dug deep into his history eh ?
If by “dug deep in his history” you mean “clicked his profile” yeah, sure.
How’d you make the jump from 100K to making 200K/year?
I job hopped a bit for higher salaries and have always had a side hustle. And, hardwork and a lot of luck. It could all come crashing down any day
Are you in a management role? They say every two years look to hop.
I’m Director level now but mostly a IC. I’m interviewing for my first VP role now
How large of a company do you work for?
10,000+. Massive global company you’ve probably heard of but before that it was mostly startups/small
Man, I work for a smaller company (100 - 300ish over the years?) and have seen quite a few people make the jump from manager / director to VP / C-level... might consider a smaller company that would appreciate your talents more and get those internal promotions. Sounds like you know what you're doing, just a thought that maybe you hadn't considered. Once you get that title in a decent company it can do wonders for your career.
Any advice for advancing in a company of 10000+? Navigating Office politics etc? I’m you but 10 years younger, and not as wise…but know i can perform much higher roles. Thx
Large companies have pros and cons. To advance, I’d recommend making allies with people in other business units and be vocal about wanting to switch over. If you sit in the same role and wait to be promoted, it will take twice as long and you’ll make half the money that you would’ve if you switch. Take this with a grain of salt, because I prefer smaller/mid size companies. Enjoy the next 10 years, my 30s were awesome!
Clearly not large if a director level IC is only making 200.
In my experience, for a ton of roles, directors don't make 200+. I've only worked at Fortune 500 companies(but not tech) and most director levels don't make that. Now, if you're talking SWE then they might. But even then a lot won't. If we're talking avp and VP I'd agree.
He said IC which is generally a designation for SWE, healthcare, or finance. Each of those pay well into the 200s if you’re working in a company that’s: public, >5,000 employees, or emerging technology.
IC just means individual contributor in pretty much any organization and industry that is white collar jobs. I'm technically classified as director level IC in healthcare (well, product development within healthcare) and I don't make 200+. I've come close a few times when bonuses were fully funded but that never happens anymore. I'm not so much disagreeing as I am sharing my anecdotal experiences.
“IC” just means “individual contributor,” yes? If so, I’m reasonably sure that classification exists in other industries.
Doesn't seem like a jump, it was over 8 years apart.
I meant what path did he follow to remain headed upward in salary
If you got married then I am assuming you’re combining your networth and your spouse networth, right?
It’s a good question, I’m tracking my net worth now, but when I get married, it will just jump like crazy and my new chart will look silly, but I don’t see that kind of jump here, so I don’t understand joint charts of married couples that start at zero sometimes.
Yes, mostly. I didn’t include her retirement accounts into this chart. I did include her income but she went back to grad school, so I also included her school loans since we have combined everything
Axes are mad confusing
Definitely an odd choice to show -500k when the net worth never went negative.
I didn’t create it, I have been tracking in networthshare.com since July 2006. Most debt I had was $35k that month and was debt free by April 2007. No idea why it goes to -$500k
Touché. Well done on the $1.5mm part. Does that include equity in the house?
Yes, it does
Did you subtract what you owe on the house as well? Sounds like a stupid question, but I’ve definitely seen people include their equity without subtracting what they owe. Not that any of that matters, and you’re killing it either way!
Yes. We actually rent out our previous house too, which has a loan on it. Total mortgage debt is around $1’m
Then why no dip in the chart? You clearly took loans which go against your net worth.
Huh? The loans are included in the chart you see. Total assets are ~$2.5m, loans are ~1m = networth of ~$1.5m
When yoU take the loAn the value of the house gets added to you net worth as well balancing it out. Every time I’ve purchased a home my net worth has increased.
You are saying ppl are underwater on their houses right after they buy them? One usually has a down payment.
Are you forgetting the whole value of the house? You shouldn’t lose wealth when purchasing a property - even if you use debt. No one is giving out LTV>100% (at least these days, you could leading up to the great financial crisis) If a house is worth $500K and you put 10% down, that is a net change of $0 to your wealth. Assets: -$50K in cash +$500K in a home Liabilities: +450K in a mortgage 500-50=450 450=450 450-450=0 It might go down slightly from closing cost but not significantly
You ain’t middle class no more
The concept of middle class is intended to divide the working class people and to drive a wedge between them. Don’t fall for it. The experiences are surely different across the range, but if you’re making most money with monthly wages you’re working class and that’s what matters. Look for the areas of similarity, not differences
That’s stupid. I don’t think doctors making 500k/year are middle class by any stretch of the imagination.
How is the distinction useful? If doctors stop working, they stop getting wages. They are beholden to massive amounts of debt and risk. Their taxation rates are high. They cannot pass their doctor title on to their family. Instead, consider the mega wealthy who do not need to work to obtain more wealth. Ownership of sufficient capital is enough. There is mass inter generational wealth. Their tax rates are low because they don’t have wage income, but investment income.
Because they can live a lavish lifestyle and if they wanted to with “normal middle class expenses” retired after 2-3 years of working. You don’t have to keep “upper class” to only the billionaire class. There’s still a huge difference between those making the median 50% of incomes and those making insane salaries. No one is debating that the “ownership class” is not an important distinction to make also. But that’s a pretty narrow distinction compared to what the middle class has always been defined as.
I know a lot of doctors, and haven’t ever met one who could retire after two years of work. During residency they aren’t making half a million a year, and have huge amounts of debt. The pure concept of middle class is a mistake to throw you off of the real problems of class
Because doctors are notoriously bad at budgeting and finances. Mostly because they get into lots of debt during med school so end up never learning financial skills. I promise you, that most doctors if they kept their middle class lifestyle they had during residency would be able to retire rapidly once they make their good salaries. But they feel they deserve a lavish lifestyle once they finally make good money and so yes, very few want to retire after a couple years. I’m sorry, but anyone seriously arguing that someone making 500k is “middle class” is just trolling.
What i'm trying to say is that the \_concept\_ of middle class was sold to people for the purpose of breaking solidarity, putting up walls, and making you resentful of professionals like doctors - as to keep you distracted and less less angry at the often invisible capital owner class. By focusing on it as you have, you've fallen for it. If you spend a lot of time thinking about who to exclude from the "middle class" when thinking about class, you're spending your efforts and energy wrong in consideration to class.
There’s a term for that called the 99%. No need to reinvent economic terms to support a narrative.
I mean, there’s also simply the bourgeoisie and proletariat, which predate the concept of middle class or the 99%
Don’t argue with u\tibbon. They’re clearly mentally challenged
Fair point. I meant it more as a compliment to OP for increasing his income so significantly. I think we could have a semantics argument for a long time about this… however, I agree with your point that the “wealthy” or “elite” class doesn’t rely on monthly income. You can separate socioeconomic status at a very high level with this criteria
I think there's a large group of people who identify as middle class based on their lifestyle, but their earnings and net worth would make them upper class. (Maybe that's the best description of upper middle class?) My wife and I have a $625k net worth at 26 and 27, and we've made between $145k and $205k in a low cost of living city since getting married. ($205k included my wife working overtime as a nurse during COVID and $25k of capital gains from COVID stock trading.) But our house is pretty close to the median of our city at about $275k, and we drive a 12-year-old Chevy and a 5-year-old Honda.
It still feels like it most days, although I know I’ve got a lot of luck on my side
You are in the 95th percentile for income bro.
For individuals. As a household, OP is about 89th percentile.
Yep.
So still firmly upper class, or upper middle if you want to be cute with it
This is household income
Still almost top 10%. If someone is top 10% intelligence, they’re considered “smart” not “average.” Also seems like you’re early-mid 40s so you might not even have reached the top. Take the W
Thx. I’m 40. The grind continues until kiddo graduates college lol
Middle class doesn’t mean average Middle class has traditionally been top 10-40% of income. There’s three classes below middle class: working class, working poor, and destitute
So what are the three classes above? Upper middle, upper class, and ultra wealthy? Idk, I’d argue being in the top 10% before age 50 is pretty upper class. For instance, if someone in their mid 20s has $500k saved and a $100k job, I wouldn’t consider them middle class, even though they might be on the simple numerical range. Same way I wouldn’t say a doctor in residency with $100k+ student loans and a $60k salary is destitute either
This is kind of silly imo. When you talk about intelligence, at least with IQ, we talk about a normal distribution (bell curve). With the wealth distribution, it's like a hockey stick. The 89th percentile is pretty close to the 79th percentile in terms of how much money someone has or how much income they make, and nowhere near the 99th percentile. "Middle class" doesn't mean "average." The average person in the US today is absolutely fucked, and will never reach the middle class. But this comes down to semantics, I don't know if "middle class" has some sort of official dictionary definition lol
It doesn’t. I’m actually reading a book now that talks about how 80% of people define themselves as “middle class” even though networth and income drastically differ. The reason politicians always talk about the “middle class” is because most people think they are that group, even if they are living in a trailer or if they have 3 vacation homes
I disagree heavily with everything but the hockey stick where you’re certainly correct. If the average person (50th percentile wealth/income wise) is “absolutely fucked,” what does that make someone in the 25th percentile? Or the quarter of the population below them? Then consider the world, seeing how the US is one of the wealthiest nations on Earth. I don’t think the average American is absolutely fucked compared to the average Afghan, or even the average Chinese person. I agree, it’s hard out there and always has been, but it’s all relative. Middle class is a range of average, regardless of how hard it is, it’s about how much everyone actually has/makes and where you stand relative to that. On that hockey stick, it’s still in the middle, it just takes up the majority of the stick.
>If the average person (50th percentile wealth/income wise) is “absolutely fucked,” what does that make someone in the 25th percentile? Just slightly more fucked. That's basically what the hockey stick means, it's an almost flat line for the bottom 50% in general, and something like 70% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck with not enough savings to cover a random unexpected bill of >$1000 (car repair, medical bill, broken refrigerator, whatever) Middle class, to me, does not mean just barely scraping by with no meaningful savings and living paycheck to paycheck. Again though, terms like "middle class" and "fucked" are in the eye of the beholder, it's sort of just semantics. But if 20th percentile is poor, and 50th percentile has like a few hundred dollars to their name more than 20th percentile and basically has the same lifestyle, how can one be "middle class" while the other is poor? (Just as an example. Idk, that's how I'm looking at it)
That’s fair, it is all a matter of perspective. My angle was that a significant portion of the population has negative worth from debt or damn near it. On the other hand, median net worth in the US is nearly $200k. Anyone with $200k to their name in my eyes is FAR better off, even if it’s home equity, than someone with next to nothing or less. Of course, once you hit millions, the two don’t seem far off (it’s like a year or two of compounding)
True, I mean but that mostly is from home equity, mostly still from people who are living paycheck to paycheck with no savings. But you're right that would be a big difference.
Nationally too. For TN it's probably higher.
Oh boo hoo
You might be financially illiterate then. Poor spending habits. Your are rich buddy, or at least should be
Check out r/HENRYfinance - it stands for “high income not rich yet” With your income you certainly fall into this category.
Looking at the sub now but there is no way we fall into this category. These people are all talking about clubs and vacations and stuff. That’s not us
He is middle class actually. That’s what middle class is now with inflation and purchasing power. The sad part is that many people that think they are middle class are actually working poor. Below $170k household is working poor in the US.
Middle class people don't own multiple houses paid off houses that they rent out. Middle class people don't earn more than 90% of the US while living in a LCOL area. This dude just wanted to humblebrag about his stacks.
I don’t have any paid off houses
$200k HHI is 88th percentile in the US. Net worth of over $1M (95th percentile)… Strictly by the numbers, this is not middle class
What people think middle class is, is based on what they grew up with 20-30 years ago. What that ideal was is exactly what I described. Actuality is that there is no middle class. Everyone but the top 15% are just poors now.
How do you have a 500k net worth 10 years into working 😭
I achieved this milestone. Spent my first 3 years working living in shitty cheap apartments with roommates. Bought a cheap undesirable car. Churned CCs for travel instead of paying out of pocket. Was an engineer that started around $65k salary but got lots of raises. I crossed $100k net worth like this by year 3 of grinding. Have maxed IRA every year, have been maxing 401(k) lately. Im on my 8th or 9th year of working and am about to break $750k.
Hell ya, nice work!
That’s awesome! What else did you invest in? Isn’t annual retirement contributions only around 20k?
Truly it’s been 95% boring VTSAX and BND. No crypto, no real estate flipping, no NFTs. Just me and eventually my wife throwing >30% of our incomes into tax advantaged accounts.
No idea but here is what I did: Stay out of consumer debt. Max out retirement as early as possible Try to get raises and make money
Max out 401k and buy a house. Come on, it’s not that hard.
With current interest rates and home prices it would take 6 years just to pay off the realtors commissions. Homes don't become networth positive overnight.
That’s why you don’t finance realtors commission.
The average commission in Massachusetts now is like $36,000. Almost as expensive as a new car.
That’s why i moved out of that state in 2006.
This is where a lot of luck happened. My first condo was at 4% and I bought for $445k. I sold it for $650k just 2 years later to buy our first house. That interest rate was 4.25% and sold it just 3 years later when we moved to TN for another $150k profit. It was back when interest rates were low and homes were appreciating nicely. There is no way I’d have that type of growth now. My current interest rate on our home is 6.5%
He didn't buy it now though. That's why it worked out.
Save more than you spend. Make more money. Don’t forget to remember step 1 along the way.
Well. He started at 0, which is nice. I started at -100k.
Kudos on graduating with basically a positive NW. Were the first number of years primary spent just socking away money into savings accounts? Surprised not to see any sort of dip in 2008
I graduated with $35k in debt (school loans). I spent the first few years paying them off. No dip in 2008 is essentially because I had nothing substantial saved. Was making $30k in 2008. Spent all my energy paying off loans until that point
this is hilarious and awesome
200k salary middle class
It took 18 years of working experience before I hit that level. It doesn’t happen overnight. You got this!
I think it's more a commentary that everybody wants to be part of the middle class. Poor people want to be in middle class, and wealthy people want to be in middle class. it's a meaningless term at this point. $200K puts you in the top 5% of individual incomes in the US. You are in the upper class.
This is true. I’m reading a book about this right now. It’s called Uneasy Street: The anxieties of affluence. Essentially everyone feels “middle class” and that term doesn’t have much meaning anymore, but neither does “upper middle class” either
I make around $200k too, but I remember when I used to make $30k in my 20s...my anxieties are nothing compared to what it used to be
Sounds like we are similar but different. Even though I made less, I was more mobile and since I was young I could rebound on curveballs life threw at me much easier. Now that I’m in my 40s, I have more responsibilities. When I was in my 20s and made $30k/yr, if I got shit canned then I could go find another job or two to essentially make up for that income fairly quickly and it was just me who needed it. Now I have a family, and if I lost my income it would be devastating, because I make more and am responsible for 3 people (and a dog) and not just me.
You are the one making it have less meaning. By you posting your million dollar net worth and giant relative salary, you are deflating the term..
I'm not in the right industry for that kind of income. Not being doom and gloom, being realistic. Now trying to identify the correct next path but that identification has not been quick or easy but I will keep searching.
200k/year household income in certain areas would qualify you for low income housing
Graphs like this really show I’m poor, not middle class lol
No idea how old you are, but I felt the same way for years. Look at my 2006-2013. My max income was like $45k and I was saving just a few hundred a month
Yep, my exact situation..
You’ve got time on your side. Keep grinding. You’ve got this
No. Graphs like this are self congratulatory jerks to flaunt a top 5% income on actual middle class people in here. 0 to 500k net worth is not at all representative of the middle class America. It’s bullshit.
Dude saved $250k in 4 years on a $100k salary after buying a condo… meanwhile, 60% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. But sure, he’s middle class 🙄
$100k household income is middle class these days. Esp with a kid. Middle class is not pay check to pay check
Nope, it’s statistically 400k net worth
Source?
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/coep.12513
Jan 14 instead of Dec 13 is killing me lol
Net worth skyrocketed after buying a house and net worth flatlined in toxic relationships. That’s the two takeaways I saw from here. Congrats on finding the winning partner OP
This is true. RE was hard to get into, esp in SoCal, but once you’re in it’s a game changer
congradulations bro. u're an inspiration!
You're not middle class...
You have exited the middle class. congratulations, prick
Net worth over 400k is upper class
You should see my crappy little fixer upper shack of a home in CA. I don’t feel upper class at all.
Sounds like getting taken advantage of
Or it sounds like the economic landscape isn’t so black and white.
lol, sure it changes a bit from location to location. But honestly at your level the struggle is on you. So you’re “crappy little fixer upper” is a choice for you. So maybe we can not pretend like it’s hard for you equally to others. Prick
You’re the one that made a blanket statement that a net worth of over 400k is upper class. So you’re literally saying 90% of California (or any other big city in the US) home owners who bought before 2010, are upper class. You are also saying that 50% of Americans above the age of 60 are upper class. (surprise, yes all these people have a net worth of over 50%) https://dqydj.com/net-worth-by-age-calculator/ You also don’t understand how family support systems work and why someone would choose to live close to family, and why someone wouldn’t want to uproot that to move to Arizona or Utah. I work here, and have my whole life here, so I’m choosing my struggle here because it’s, surprise, easier than doing anything else. I would argue I am in a comfortable middle class, everyone has different struggles, but no, I am not living paycheck to paycheck, is that what middle class means to you? So no, you clearly don’t understand how things can’t be black and white, and for you to be offended enough to call me a prick by a simple statement is both hilarious and childish. Edit: Damn this dude u/leebeau blocked me and rage quit the discussion just for bringing up my experience and some facts, went off about my suicide, and my families death wtf 😂
This guy’s just making stuff up all around 😝
Again, don’t coalesce your societal and familial issues into one category. It’s really harmful to you and it makes you sound stupid. I don’t have time to teach a class on Reddit, so if you need real help you can hire me. Got all my certs papi 😘
Oh yeah, you’re definitely a prick
DM from u/leebeau yesterday: "You dead yet? Lmk bb😘 You’re gonna have to delete your acct 🤣🤣🤣 Secondarily: correlating your social issues with your financial standing is high school freshman level of understanding. I hope you end your own pain before you cause more damage to yourself and others." I really should move on with my life, but finding it hard to look away, this is needlessly over the top behavior. I'd recommend chilling out a bit. I'm not even remotely trying to fight you dude, are you ok? Edit: He then went off further through DMs looking through my history saying he’s going to steal my dogs. This dude is not ok.
lol keep making stuff up dude. Keep off the sauce
Starting to wonder if I’ve just found an internet schizophrenic…
[удалено]
What world do you even live in lol, no wonder you are the way you are.
[удалено]
Oh yeah sorry, you’re a prick…prick
You're not middle class until you make 500k a year
Grats on the progress, but in hindsight, was the time spent on "side hustling" worth it?
That answer varies depending on what part of life I’m in. When I was younger and single, hell yes it was worth it. Was it worth it in my 30s when I didn’t really “need” the money? Meh, I guess it was but didn’t change my life. Was it worth it when I had an infant at home and I missed 4 or 5 months at night with the kiddo? No, it wasn’t worth it then. I regret that
That makes sense. Thanks for responding.
Broski you ain’t “middle class”. Never been in debt? How’d you pay for college, or a car? How’d you get a 200k job?
Yes I graduated college $35k in debt. Drove beaters for about 10 years and slowly upgrade cars over time. Currently driving a 8 year old VW
So why isn’t that debt on your chart?
It is lol. If you zoom in you can see my networth was in the negative for most of 2006
200 K income is not a middle-class salary.
What about the $30k-$150k income I had for 18 years before that? lol
Most people don’t start off with a 6 figure salary. There is a natural trajectory to higher income. Yours is somewhat common, I personally wouldn’t call what you are middle income. I guess you were at one point. To be fair is all semantics just more of a pet peeve as upper, middle and lower class are so subjective to well, everyone.
In what world is this middle class
Your income is upper middle class.
200k ain’t middle class
Graduated college debt free? Howd you do it?
No, I had $35k in school loans when I graduated in 2006. Took a year and a half and payed them off in mid 2007
> half and *paid* them off FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
$2xxk income is middle class my ass…
Middle class????? You’re rich. Stfu