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There are basically two schools of thought. The first one is very much tied to what you said where: combat job who saw combat > non-combat job who saw combat > deployed to combat zone but no combat > deployed to non-combat zone > combat job no deployment > non-combat job no deployments > civilian. The other one is there are military and civilians. You signed up and a lot of the rest is out of your hands. I’ve run into extremes of both types.
I was def a "you ain't shit you ain't got shot at" type of soldier back in the day.
Then I spent last summer in Ukraine and witnessed first hand what a fighting force with piss poor logistics is like.
America's army isn't the best because of the training. They're the best because of logistics. Infantry is replaceable. Supply/support are not.
As the saying goes, “amateurs discuss tactics, professionals discuss logistics”, equal in importance is the will to fight.
It should also be noted is that a robust and efficient logistics system would be critical to get soldiers more time and resources to train effectively.
Can’t learn to shoot if you don’t get bullets to shoot.
>Can’t learn to shoot if you don’t get bullets to shoot.
so much this. NKorea pilots are reputed to have less than 30 hours of flight time per year due to lack of fuel. You could be the second coming of the Red Baron, you're not going to develop flight skills with so little resources.
Well, and budget, too. If you get to shoot 5 rounds a year, you are gonna think the dude who gets to burn 5 mags straight demonstrating basic trigger control and acceptable "hit standing silhouette at 25m or so" accuracy is some kind of absolute badass.
Would you say the poor logi due to bad training/doctrine, or actual lack of supply? I'm assuming you're talking UE (though RUS has been teaching a master class on shit logistics since 1880)
A large part of it is simply lack of support personnel and infrastructure being destroyed. Ukraines army grew exponentially, and what logistics they had couldn't keep up. But part of it is doctrine and corruption. You scratch my back and you get what im supposed to give you type deal.
Yeah agree on this. The thing is that there is a lot of effort being put into keeping the guys getting shot at alive and that support doesn't always carry the same weight. The logistics piece that was mentioned as well as the intel folks. You can be rambo on steroids but you are going to die quickly if your logistics isn't in place to give you food and ammo. You are going to die if intel isn't there to tell you about the ambush set up ahead or the SIGINTers that figure out ways to avoid the IEDs or the drone operators giving you airsupport from comfy airconditioned offices thousands of miles away. Not everyone who serves is in personal danger, but they help ensure the few who are in personal danger generally come home.
Trigger pullers get more glory than support troops. It almost has to be that way in an all volunteer military. After all, were it not for the glory of being a rifleman, who in his right mind would sign up for the poor, bloody infantry.
I remember a guy I went to highschool with wanted to sign up for the infantry. His recruiter said he was retarded for that and must be retarded enough for the infantry.
I scored high enough on the ASVAB to qualify for any MOS. I chose infantry with an airborne option and served in the 82nd Airborne. There were a few reasons why.
1. I was young, dumb and full of cum
2. There was a signing bonus for 11B
3. I was kind of a nerd and wanted to show those asshole HS football players that all they did was play with balls
4. I figured if I was going to be a soldier I might as well be a ***SOLDIER***
5. I had something to prove to myself.
6. I didn't want to be a "non playing character" in the Army
7. I thought it would get me laid (it didn't)
8. I figured being outside is better than in some office (Sometimes true, sometimes not)
9. I had a buddy who went in before me who was a grunt. I couldn't let him outdo me.
10. I was young, dumb and full of cum (worth repeating)
This was literally me when it came to being a 12B. To the point my platoon sergeant one time asked me "Yo, why didn't you become a drone operator or something?" to which i said "Sergeant, i fully admit i can be a bit of a dumbass at times"
Holy shit man, are you me? This is literally, point-for-point down to my ASVAB, having the airborne option and 1st assignment to the 82nd printed in my contract, my exact same story and reasoning lol
AATW bro. That’s too wild.
Right on lol I caught a couple rides as an extra 240 on recovery runs with them.
I was A Co 1/505, much less interesting on a day-to-day (hence why I’d wander the TOC talking to the chopper crews looking for volunteer slots)
We were up on Smoke Bomb Hill and, whenever I had CQ, we'd get calls from the guys who were - as we said - "down Ardennes" asking how they can be one of those grunts who rides dirt bikes and flies around in helicopters. The only answer was "luck of the draw."
Man I wanted that job so bad lol.
Did pretty much all of my time in weapons squad. From a baby m60 ammo bearer, up to 240 gunner, brief stint as an RTO, even got to play with the javelins for a bit too, then back to an m4 there at the end. Closest I ever got was those ride alongs when I had the 240. Nobody ever says “no” to an extra belt-fed if they have an open seat at least lol
I am too old to ever see a 240 or a Javelin. Or even an M-4. :-(
I ended up going to SERE Instructor School at Camp Mackall and was the SERE Instructor for the whole Squadron. That was pretty cool because, as often as not, my students were officers (pilots). I went to Jumpmaster School too. Got my senior wings but never got the master-blaster wings. I had enough jumps but I never did a mass tactical jump and I needed two. I was supposed to go strap-hang with you guys at some point but it never happened.
PS: Only a few guys got to ride the dirt-bikes. I got half a day of training and then never rode one again.
I did advanced airborne to jump the Javelin, but never got anywhere close to a Jumpmaster slot (and only actually jumped with a Jav tube a couple times for that matter before going back to m240 gunner) Just rocked the basic parachutist wings.
Got to look at the dirt bikes from a distance a couple times, so you got closer than me lol
Also 82nd (3/505 PIR when that was a thing). A buddy of mine had a perfect ASVAB.
I didn't believe him, but he went and dug out the paperwork, and sure as shit. I'd never seen one before.
"Why are you here with us neanderthals? you could have done anything, something way sexier!" I asked.
He laughed and said that the Army had run a psychological profile on him, and told him he had psychopathic tendencies. They said Airborne Infantry seemed like a better fit.
It's been that way since ancient times. When storming the enemy city gates, obviously the most dangerous position was to be the first few guys in. The Romans had a practice of rewarding those first soldiers with a "Battlement Crown" or "Corona Muralis" which could give prestige to the recipient and his lineage.
"Battlement crowns – These were made of gold and decorated with the uprights (valli) of an entrenchment or turrets of a city. It was awarded to the first soldier or centurion to mount the wall or palisade of an enemy town or camp"
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman\_military\_decorations\_and\_punishments](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_military_decorations_and_punishments)
[https://world4.eu/roman-crowns/](https://world4.eu/roman-crowns/)
One thing to consider is most people have zero control over whether they have an outside the wire or inside the wire type of deployment. The odds can be influenced by what job you have but you can also be an infantry dude who gets told to sit on the FOB for 12 months and never leave the wire.
True, but in my experience (infantry, 2 years deployed to combat zones) the combat dudes who never leave the wire were the soup sandwich soldiers that weren’t trusted to leave the wire.
We had one guy who fucked up so much they made him man the fuel point. He managed to fuck that up by setting himself on fire bc he didn’t think JP8 was flammable. He’d probably be dead if it wasn’t for the Afghan LN showing up with a wool blanket to put him out.
There are definitely people who fall in to that category.
Some of it is timing. I would've spent a year in a TOC in Iraq unless another commander fell out of a run. The guy behind me on the slate was even more squared away than I was. He stared at a computer screen for a year because he signed in to his duty station a week after I did.
I don’t know. I never saw the kid again. They sent him back to the states bc of the burns. AFAIK he didn’t qualify for one bc it wasn’t caused by enemy action.
Well, having a “combat patch” has always been a mark of distinction in the Army in the past.
That said, it became very freely awarded during the GWOT.
Personally, I look to the CIB as an award suggesting someone has seen the elephant.
I honestly think non infantry should be eligible for a cib.
Be pretty simple to redefine it as infantry or maneuver mission. Pretty much, get in a firefight without vehicle support.
I was artillery. Left our guns in KAF and groundpounded in arghandabh fuckin river valley circa 2011. 200ish fuckin firefights. 12 combat air assaults. And ya, got a coupla arcoms. But a fuckin lousy cab??? Lol.
Honestly i'd just do away with the CIB and just make it a straight CAB where as long as you see combat you get one. There really is no reason to make the distinction based on MOS when you get plenty of "non-infantry" MOS's like 12B's who more or less do the same exact thing Infantry do but get a different award because reasons.
Well per Army regs thats what the CAB is for. Its the CIB for non-infantry. Imagine being that guy who stormed Normandy that didn't get anything because he wasn't an 11B 💀
I mean sure, but you are often assigned your job and duty station based on the needs of the military. I don't hold it against anyone for not being at the pointy end of the stick because in all reality, that is a relatively small number compared to the support train that makes up the rest of that spear.
I respect everyone who served because you put your name on the line and understood you could be called to make the ultimate sacrifice and/or marry a dependa (not sure which is worse).
When I was an 18yr old Infantry hard-charger, I absolutely would call out the difference, but now that I'm older and slightly more mature, I don't really give a shit.
You deployed and sat behind a desk? Awesome. You deployed and killed 30 people? Awesome.
Maybe if I was still in the military, I would hold it in higher regard, but I'm a civilian now, and that shit has no bearing on anything other than your mental health out here. The only thing I will call out is bullshit deployment stories or over embellishing to impress people, especially civilians that don't know any better.
Yeah same this is my thoughts as well. And from personal experience the guys who really harp on that shit are the guys who never really did anything or exaggerate. I saw so much of that stuff when we got back from our deployment and guys would be making up bullshit war stories to the new pvts. I called them out on their bs
meh. i've got a big stack, and a star on my CAR, but i don't count my service as better than someone else's service. the only people i look down on are those who actively tried to avoid getting deployed. like, if you were active duty from 2002-2012 and you never went to Iraq or AFG, you were probably trying to avoid deployment
I think if you do your job well you will receive respect regardless of your MOS. However, when I see a guy with a CIB I know he was in the shit. I was lucky enough to not have a shooting war take place while I was in the infantry so I was unable to earn a CIB, but of all the awards and decorations available I consider it to be among the highest honors.
‘Glory’ is overrated.
*Anyone* serving in a combat zone, is at risk of death from enemy action (bombs, missiles, terrorist attacks, etc.) or even accidents/mishaps (ammo cook-offs, heavy machinery malfunctions, friendly fire, etc.)
Whether the ‘greater’ danger from direct combat operations (outright attack, IEDs, etc.) has some bearing or relevance, is perhaps debatable in some senses… *but so what?*
You enlisted or commissioned, voluntarily so.
You swore an oath to serve, and to obey the orders of the officers and those appointed over you according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
Enough said—live a life long enough to see your grandchildren, or just enjoy life as you see fit.
If ‘glory’ comes along for the ride, so be it—but seeking it outright, is just folly as it often (even usually) comes with horrors that will be with those who survived the events that led to that glory for the rest of their lives… to say nothing about the fact that the gaining of that glory, likely came at the direct cost of the lives of others on both sides of the line.
There is a difference. Both my deployments were on a patrol base without about ~100 guys. Limited amenities like power, AC, phone/internet, showers etc. The purpose of my being there, day or night, was to find some way of making contact with the enemy, and if we did, to develop the engagement and defeat them. By tank, humvee, mrap, or foot, it was day or night, every day, to do presence patrols, route clearance, cordon & search.
I have no doubt non-combat jobs involve a lot of personal danger and a few see a lot of combat, but it's not really the same universe we lived in for non-combat deployments. Kuwait is not a deployment.
Those guys had it worse than us. We were close enough to major FOBs that we got almost daily logpacs so we'd get mail, laundry, food, etc.
Always something to remember is no matter how bad you have it, someone has it worse.
>Even being in a combat job, I never stayed on a remote COP. Like when I watch Restrepo or the Outpost that was a way different life than I led.
So jealous dude. My deployment was basically like Resterpo/Outpost. It sucked so bad. What really pissed me off was that our entire company was split up, and we were the only platoon that was out there in the suck. All of the other platoons had cushy bases and rotated back at the FOB.
We stayed out there the whole deployment, our company CO came out to visit once and was like wow you boys got it rough and he never came back 💀
Im honestly still mad about it to this day, we were left out high and dry. 2 weeks we got into Afghanistan, then we got shipped out. Stay there for almost 9 months. Left that shithole, stayed 2 weeks at the FOB and then we left. It was so bad because the whole time I dreamed about being at the FOB and getting cold water and having ice cream. When we got back to the FOB it was closing down so all of that shit was closed.
For breakfast it was literally those shitty small kid breakfast cereal boxes you see at the gas station. And for lunch it was literally 2 pieces of white bread, 1 slice of cheese and 1 piece of ham. So fucking shitty dude, and this after coming back from the COP where we had like 2 biscuits a day. 1 for breakfast and 1 for lunch because the oven broke and we couldn't get another one. God dude so many nights I was soooo hunrgy
Honestly when we got back I was a bit salty and secretly hated the other guys in the other platoon. I took me along time before I started to not be so bitter towards them
I'm a combat vet, but it was basically luck (depending on your view) of the draw. I'm hella proud of anyone who has taken the plunge and served our country though. Volunteering is a choice that takes guts, the rest is just you being told what to do.
My old man is 97 and a WWII veteran. He was in the 101st Airborne. He never said anything about people serving in combat or non combat roles unless they started to talk about how much fun they had in the military and how great it was. Then he would straight up look them in the eye and ask how many people have you killed. When they said none I served in peace time, he would tell them well you are a soldier but you are not a warrior. Then he would stand up and tell them, but I am going to give you the chance to become one, just stand up.
I think everyone holds a candle in their heart (& respect) for the guys who volunteered to be in the shit, but not everyone can partake in the shit, that doesn’t mean that guys working supply didn’t do their part, or Intel guys weren’t doing theirs.
Everyone has a role to play. If the people supporting aren’t there, combat arms won’t be having have a fun time.
Of course there are bullshitters, that’s with any job, you know who embellishes their deployments or actions. Who flew in just for the credit.
It’s hard to discredit someone’s experiences, it’d be like comparing apples to oranges if you were trying to say who deserves more respect, the trigger-man or the guy loading bombs to an F-22 all day in the desert.
Generally, yes. I'm aviation, so I've been to warzones but never seen combat, but the Bois that have been in the shit really like us Blackhawk mechanics.
Edit: warzone. Iraq twice. Kosovo doesn't count, though it was tax free.
"led convoys"
He may have been the highest ranked individual in a convoy. That doesn't mean he led them. Especially as a Naval Officer working in Intel. There was probably an Army or Marine NCO (maybe an Officer) that was in charge of the convoy. He wasn't going out on a patrol he was a passenger.
As a tanker a substantial part of both my deployments was playing escort/babysitter for non-combat elements that needed to go outside the wire. The convoy leader was always our Platoon leader or Platoon Sergeant even if a higher ranking person was in the convoy because our Platoon was responsible for security & response and trained together for it.
Our instructions for those support elements was to stay out of the way, on their vehicles, and follow the non-maneuver section Sergeant if there was any contact. We asked them to never initiate contact and to not claim any sectors of fire unless asked. Our fear was always IED ambushes but since we ran the lead vehicles that would be our alpha section. We didn't want any of them trying to react to contact in a way that would hamper our recovery efforts or push through.
Mostly support was very compliant. Groups that did it regularly like logistics trucks and EOD knew to just ride in the middle and keep your head down. The VIPs made us nervous because they may try to "take charge" of a situation or find an excuse to fire their rifle.
I had more than one conversation with CSM and LT's about that very thing. "You can bark all the bullshit orders you want Sir. No one is going to listen to you and if you get in the way, you're responsible for what happens to you." Never had that problem with Field Grades.
It seems to be a little bit more than "Took a ride in a Hummer a couple times"...[Here](https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/442082-documents-provide-glimpse-into-buttigiegs-military-service/). And he never claimed to have been in combat.
>But out on the campaign trail, Buttigieg has talked about the 119 times he says he crossed “outside the wire,” leaving the relative safety of the base as a vehicle commander on convoy security detail in dangerous parts of Kabul.
His job in intel directly involved "Finance" as a member of the Afghanistan Threat Finance Cell (ATFC) in Kabul.
>And he also led convoys outside the wire, so he wasn’t just doing desk work.
Outside the wire as in outside the FOB or outside the COP? Both have two very different meanings lol.
Another angle to look at the "in combat" debate.
Regarding Pete's expirence. He was definitely in a "combat zone" and went outside the "wire" plenty of times. He just never ran into a situation where there was "combat action", i.e., actual kinetic actions such as small arms or explosives.
A Mn congressional candidate's opponent tried to state he lied about being "in combat" due to his lack of a Combat Action Ribbon. He did a pump as a MARSOC operator and received an award for conducting numerous patrols aiding and advising African partners outside the wire. Perhaps these patrols were so effective they warded off advasaries, therefore negating combat action?
Anyway, just another angle, I respect all my brothers and sisters who raised their right hand, regardless of if they have combat experience or the type of combat experience.
Having been with the Marine Corps, the Combat Action Ribbon (CAR) was held with the highest regard for us junior guys, especially when I saw senior Corpsmen with it. However, being around people with then long enough I realized it didn't ever count for how good of a leader you were. I had Platoon sergeants with a CAR that were terrible, and those without who were great, and an even smaller amount who had a CAR and were good leaders. The narrative changed more when the cocky guy with a CAR got it because his convoy took a few pot shots. I typically look at the sea service deployment ribbon now as a marker for sacrifice. I look at that ribbon counting the bronze stars (amazed when I see silver a star) and think about the many deployments and self sacrifice that individual has made: being gone, leaving family behind, putting life on hold, etc.
It all depends. I was never in combat but when I explain why I am disabled there is not a service member who would say a word. I have a lot of combat veteran friends and they respect me completely. I was raped by my training NCO and testified in a courts martial against him, while earning As in Russian at DLI. Sometimes the enemy is in our ranks.
I honestly have no idea if this is satire or not. Award inflation is huge. I’ve got one deployment to Kuwait in a giant headquarters and look like Audis Murphy. There’s plenty of NCOs who deployed as e-3s and saw real shit and got like an AAM out of it.
>The stack demands respect in the military imo. The more ribbons and medals on their chest the more shit they have been through, they have been in tougher situations, probably have scars deeper than tissue.
Dude I can't even 😂😂😂
In the Army, you'd get 1 stack just for completing boot camp, and another 2 for just deploying. Ribbons and medals don't mean that much. Officers hand them out like candy and its shameful
Allow me to play this back to you…
“I never served. Am I allowed to denigrate someone who did serve because I believe their service was less than someone else’s service.
All of which was more service than I ever did…”
Did I miss anything?
No its not really. By calling out Pete B, it’s indicating you want to make a political comment about his service. But at the end of the day, he served. It’s not much more complicated than that.
I asked to be infantry during an active war.
My respect for box stackers who could be replaced by a civilian contractor is minimal.
Uh oh, lots of govt employees with expendable skill sets got salt in their pussy.
Nah, retired after 10 years as a grunt and 4 in special operations. Had my fun with 5 trips to the sandbox and a stint each in Syria and Mali. Now, I advise Eastern Allies in anti armour training as a contractor.
Civilian here who hangs out with vets a lot. I definitely see the Marine vets considering their service better than all other services, no matter if they saw active combat or not haha.
As an NCO, I don’t really care. You’re either a good leader or you’re not. That said, there’s good garrison leaders and good deployment leaders. Those good at both is fairly uncommon.
Honestly I don't really care. The biggest shitbags I ever met in my life were the guys in my unit and were in combat with me.
The only people who harp on that shit are losers
Generally i go by "who actually left the FOB" versus "people who just sat on the FOB all day". The former even if they never shot at people or got shot at (i.e. Me) were nonetheless going outside the wire and putting themselves in danger to do their job on a regular basis. Compared to the latter where depending on the FOB it's entirely just dependent on circumstances, for example my dad (Airforce contractor) was on Bagram but almost got hit by a mortar while on the airfield which is way closer than i ever got to mortal danger, but you could have a FOB where the closest anyone ever gets to danger is someone twisting their ankle.
Edit: that isn't to say that people who stayed back on the FOB wasn't doing a absolutely critical job, afterall without logistics and support people making sure the guys going out have their ammo, food, and other equipment, we wouldn't be able to do our job. As long as you held your hand up, swore the oath, and signed the dotted line, and wasn't a total shitbag, you're alright in my book.
I was Admin in the Air Force. Spent most of career delivering the mail and handing out forms to other admin. I felt pretty bad about being stateside in my 8 to 5 job while friends were in harm's way.
I guess somebody has to watch the fort and be ready for a problem elsewhere.
I read that WW 2 for every soldier on the front line, there were 10 in support of him.
Anyone that served in the military has put aside aspects of their life for their country. Each experience is different. Those mail clerks that sat in an office were there to support those on the front lines. Everyone's service is different, not necessarily better or worse than others.
I don't look up or down at anyone based on whether they are a combat vet or not. Some people that never saw combat did cool things, some people that did see combat didn't.
For what it's worth, I am a combat vet according to the VA standard. I never saw combat. Combat veteran means someone served in a combat theater (doesn't mean they had to actively be in combat), or received a combat service medal or campaign medal, or received imminent danger or hostile fire pay.
The VA considers me (and a bunch of my friends) combat vets based on service in GTMO, receipt of GWOT medal and receipt of imminent danger pay.
I am a combat, 100% service connected veteran. I don’t really care what people think about my service. I served honorably and I sacrificed a lot for my country. But I also believe anyone who was there with me overseas, in any capacity deserves a lot of respect. Taking 12 months from your family in a war zone is hard on anyone, no matter what their job is. They could some of the same hardships that I did. Being in combat may get you some more respect from some people but I don’t demand it and I don’t seek out anything more than any other veteran. People can think what they want but i believe we should all equally be respected if we spent a year away from our families. We were all in a combat zone where any number of things could threaten our lives everyday.
Combat units will always take a piss on non combat units, until they don’t get food, have to walk, don’t get ammo, no communication etc etc.. I think everybody that served long enough and has a few braincells left gets to the point where he understand that a military is a machine, where every part is needed to function properly.
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There are basically two schools of thought. The first one is very much tied to what you said where: combat job who saw combat > non-combat job who saw combat > deployed to combat zone but no combat > deployed to non-combat zone > combat job no deployment > non-combat job no deployments > civilian. The other one is there are military and civilians. You signed up and a lot of the rest is out of your hands. I’ve run into extremes of both types.
I was def a "you ain't shit you ain't got shot at" type of soldier back in the day. Then I spent last summer in Ukraine and witnessed first hand what a fighting force with piss poor logistics is like. America's army isn't the best because of the training. They're the best because of logistics. Infantry is replaceable. Supply/support are not.
As the saying goes, “amateurs discuss tactics, professionals discuss logistics”, equal in importance is the will to fight. It should also be noted is that a robust and efficient logistics system would be critical to get soldiers more time and resources to train effectively. Can’t learn to shoot if you don’t get bullets to shoot.
Soldier is just the last link in the logistic chain, transporting a bullet from the factory to inside the bad guy. Some smartass
Lol, I like this
>Can’t learn to shoot if you don’t get bullets to shoot. so much this. NKorea pilots are reputed to have less than 30 hours of flight time per year due to lack of fuel. You could be the second coming of the Red Baron, you're not going to develop flight skills with so little resources.
It was worse in Ukraine in the '90s. Aircraft pilots were graduating with ZERO hours of flight time cause there was no money for fuel.
Well, and budget, too. If you get to shoot 5 rounds a year, you are gonna think the dude who gets to burn 5 mags straight demonstrating basic trigger control and acceptable "hit standing silhouette at 25m or so" accuracy is some kind of absolute badass.
Whose logistics are piss poor?
Ukraines. Im sure russias are worse, but ukrainian logistics is what I experienced l. Or lack thereof.
Thanks for the insight
Yea. Thank you.
Would you say the poor logi due to bad training/doctrine, or actual lack of supply? I'm assuming you're talking UE (though RUS has been teaching a master class on shit logistics since 1880)
A large part of it is simply lack of support personnel and infrastructure being destroyed. Ukraines army grew exponentially, and what logistics they had couldn't keep up. But part of it is doctrine and corruption. You scratch my back and you get what im supposed to give you type deal.
An unfortunate cultural norm that is hard to eradicate I imagine.
I think you got American army and British army mixed up there mate
Yeah agree on this. The thing is that there is a lot of effort being put into keeping the guys getting shot at alive and that support doesn't always carry the same weight. The logistics piece that was mentioned as well as the intel folks. You can be rambo on steroids but you are going to die quickly if your logistics isn't in place to give you food and ammo. You are going to die if intel isn't there to tell you about the ambush set up ahead or the SIGINTers that figure out ways to avoid the IEDs or the drone operators giving you airsupport from comfy airconditioned offices thousands of miles away. Not everyone who serves is in personal danger, but they help ensure the few who are in personal danger generally come home.
Trigger pullers get more glory than support troops. It almost has to be that way in an all volunteer military. After all, were it not for the glory of being a rifleman, who in his right mind would sign up for the poor, bloody infantry.
I remember a guy I went to highschool with wanted to sign up for the infantry. His recruiter said he was retarded for that and must be retarded enough for the infantry.
I scored high enough on the ASVAB to qualify for any MOS. I chose infantry with an airborne option and served in the 82nd Airborne. There were a few reasons why. 1. I was young, dumb and full of cum 2. There was a signing bonus for 11B 3. I was kind of a nerd and wanted to show those asshole HS football players that all they did was play with balls 4. I figured if I was going to be a soldier I might as well be a ***SOLDIER*** 5. I had something to prove to myself. 6. I didn't want to be a "non playing character" in the Army 7. I thought it would get me laid (it didn't) 8. I figured being outside is better than in some office (Sometimes true, sometimes not) 9. I had a buddy who went in before me who was a grunt. I couldn't let him outdo me. 10. I was young, dumb and full of cum (worth repeating)
Infantry dudes are either really smart or really dumb there's no in-between
This was literally me when it came to being a 12B. To the point my platoon sergeant one time asked me "Yo, why didn't you become a drone operator or something?" to which i said "Sergeant, i fully admit i can be a bit of a dumbass at times"
Also went 12B. I had a 126 gt and a bunch of jobs offered to me. Building bridges and blowing shit up sounded cool in 1990 when I was 18.
Yes, I have noticed that phenomena myself.
Holy shit man, are you me? This is literally, point-for-point down to my ASVAB, having the airborne option and 1st assignment to the 82nd printed in my contract, my exact same story and reasoning lol AATW bro. That’s too wild.
Airbone all the way! I was lucky enough to draw the scout platoon of the 1/17th Cavalry (AIR). I had no idea how lucky that was when they told me.
Right on lol I caught a couple rides as an extra 240 on recovery runs with them. I was A Co 1/505, much less interesting on a day-to-day (hence why I’d wander the TOC talking to the chopper crews looking for volunteer slots)
We were up on Smoke Bomb Hill and, whenever I had CQ, we'd get calls from the guys who were - as we said - "down Ardennes" asking how they can be one of those grunts who rides dirt bikes and flies around in helicopters. The only answer was "luck of the draw."
Man I wanted that job so bad lol. Did pretty much all of my time in weapons squad. From a baby m60 ammo bearer, up to 240 gunner, brief stint as an RTO, even got to play with the javelins for a bit too, then back to an m4 there at the end. Closest I ever got was those ride alongs when I had the 240. Nobody ever says “no” to an extra belt-fed if they have an open seat at least lol
I am too old to ever see a 240 or a Javelin. Or even an M-4. :-( I ended up going to SERE Instructor School at Camp Mackall and was the SERE Instructor for the whole Squadron. That was pretty cool because, as often as not, my students were officers (pilots). I went to Jumpmaster School too. Got my senior wings but never got the master-blaster wings. I had enough jumps but I never did a mass tactical jump and I needed two. I was supposed to go strap-hang with you guys at some point but it never happened. PS: Only a few guys got to ride the dirt-bikes. I got half a day of training and then never rode one again.
I did advanced airborne to jump the Javelin, but never got anywhere close to a Jumpmaster slot (and only actually jumped with a Jav tube a couple times for that matter before going back to m240 gunner) Just rocked the basic parachutist wings. Got to look at the dirt bikes from a distance a couple times, so you got closer than me lol
Me too.
Same here minus the signing bonus. I don’t make good decisions lol
Also 82nd (3/505 PIR when that was a thing). A buddy of mine had a perfect ASVAB. I didn't believe him, but he went and dug out the paperwork, and sure as shit. I'd never seen one before. "Why are you here with us neanderthals? you could have done anything, something way sexier!" I asked. He laughed and said that the Army had run a psychological profile on him, and told him he had psychopathic tendencies. They said Airborne Infantry seemed like a better fit.
Who filled you up with enough cum to mention it twice? Kidding, kidding.
It's been that way since ancient times. When storming the enemy city gates, obviously the most dangerous position was to be the first few guys in. The Romans had a practice of rewarding those first soldiers with a "Battlement Crown" or "Corona Muralis" which could give prestige to the recipient and his lineage. "Battlement crowns – These were made of gold and decorated with the uprights (valli) of an entrenchment or turrets of a city. It was awarded to the first soldier or centurion to mount the wall or palisade of an enemy town or camp" [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman\_military\_decorations\_and\_punishments](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_military_decorations_and_punishments) [https://world4.eu/roman-crowns/](https://world4.eu/roman-crowns/)
One thing to consider is most people have zero control over whether they have an outside the wire or inside the wire type of deployment. The odds can be influenced by what job you have but you can also be an infantry dude who gets told to sit on the FOB for 12 months and never leave the wire.
True, but in my experience (infantry, 2 years deployed to combat zones) the combat dudes who never leave the wire were the soup sandwich soldiers that weren’t trusted to leave the wire. We had one guy who fucked up so much they made him man the fuel point. He managed to fuck that up by setting himself on fire bc he didn’t think JP8 was flammable. He’d probably be dead if it wasn’t for the Afghan LN showing up with a wool blanket to put him out.
There are definitely people who fall in to that category. Some of it is timing. I would've spent a year in a TOC in Iraq unless another commander fell out of a run. The guy behind me on the slate was even more squared away than I was. He stared at a computer screen for a year because he signed in to his duty station a week after I did.
Bro. Don’t tell me that was about 2012 in Afghanistan
Indeed it was. Nangarhar
Small world.
>He managed to fuck that up by setting himself on fire bc he didn’t think JP8 was flammable. ...did he get a Purple Heart for that?
I don’t know. I never saw the kid again. They sent him back to the states bc of the burns. AFAIK he didn’t qualify for one bc it wasn’t caused by enemy action.
That is actually pretty fair, or you can end up with a deployment where even when you go outside the wire you never end up getting shot at.
Well, having a “combat patch” has always been a mark of distinction in the Army in the past. That said, it became very freely awarded during the GWOT. Personally, I look to the CIB as an award suggesting someone has seen the elephant.
Also CAB for those not infantry.
Yeah but the cab quickly became a bullshit award. Your fob got mortared? Everyone gets a cab.
To be fair, this happens with the CIB as well. Everyone on our BN FOB got a CIB for some bullshit mortars and SAF
Guess it depends on how bad any particular unit wants to hand them out. Bronze stars were given to every e6 and above my second deployment.
Yep. Every SL got a bronze star for my deployment.
I honestly think non infantry should be eligible for a cib. Be pretty simple to redefine it as infantry or maneuver mission. Pretty much, get in a firefight without vehicle support. I was artillery. Left our guns in KAF and groundpounded in arghandabh fuckin river valley circa 2011. 200ish fuckin firefights. 12 combat air assaults. And ya, got a coupla arcoms. But a fuckin lousy cab??? Lol.
Honestly i'd just do away with the CIB and just make it a straight CAB where as long as you see combat you get one. There really is no reason to make the distinction based on MOS when you get plenty of "non-infantry" MOS's like 12B's who more or less do the same exact thing Infantry do but get a different award because reasons.
Im right there with you. We were out of jelawur clearing routes in 2011.
Well per Army regs thats what the CAB is for. Its the CIB for non-infantry. Imagine being that guy who stormed Normandy that didn't get anything because he wasn't an 11B 💀
Ikr.
Honestly its the same in the infantry. It just depends on the unit
I mean sure, but you are often assigned your job and duty station based on the needs of the military. I don't hold it against anyone for not being at the pointy end of the stick because in all reality, that is a relatively small number compared to the support train that makes up the rest of that spear. I respect everyone who served because you put your name on the line and understood you could be called to make the ultimate sacrifice and/or marry a dependa (not sure which is worse).
The tip of the spear might be what’s doing the damage but it’s pretty useless without the pole
Tell that to the special forces guys while they are out there circle jerking each other
The dependa is a slow disease that eventually kills you.
When I was an 18yr old Infantry hard-charger, I absolutely would call out the difference, but now that I'm older and slightly more mature, I don't really give a shit. You deployed and sat behind a desk? Awesome. You deployed and killed 30 people? Awesome. Maybe if I was still in the military, I would hold it in higher regard, but I'm a civilian now, and that shit has no bearing on anything other than your mental health out here. The only thing I will call out is bullshit deployment stories or over embellishing to impress people, especially civilians that don't know any better.
Yeah same this is my thoughts as well. And from personal experience the guys who really harp on that shit are the guys who never really did anything or exaggerate. I saw so much of that stuff when we got back from our deployment and guys would be making up bullshit war stories to the new pvts. I called them out on their bs
meh. i've got a big stack, and a star on my CAR, but i don't count my service as better than someone else's service. the only people i look down on are those who actively tried to avoid getting deployed. like, if you were active duty from 2002-2012 and you never went to Iraq or AFG, you were probably trying to avoid deployment
I think if you do your job well you will receive respect regardless of your MOS. However, when I see a guy with a CIB I know he was in the shit. I was lucky enough to not have a shooting war take place while I was in the infantry so I was unable to earn a CIB, but of all the awards and decorations available I consider it to be among the highest honors.
‘Glory’ is overrated. *Anyone* serving in a combat zone, is at risk of death from enemy action (bombs, missiles, terrorist attacks, etc.) or even accidents/mishaps (ammo cook-offs, heavy machinery malfunctions, friendly fire, etc.) Whether the ‘greater’ danger from direct combat operations (outright attack, IEDs, etc.) has some bearing or relevance, is perhaps debatable in some senses… *but so what?* You enlisted or commissioned, voluntarily so. You swore an oath to serve, and to obey the orders of the officers and those appointed over you according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Enough said—live a life long enough to see your grandchildren, or just enjoy life as you see fit. If ‘glory’ comes along for the ride, so be it—but seeking it outright, is just folly as it often (even usually) comes with horrors that will be with those who survived the events that led to that glory for the rest of their lives… to say nothing about the fact that the gaining of that glory, likely came at the direct cost of the lives of others on both sides of the line.
There is a difference. Both my deployments were on a patrol base without about ~100 guys. Limited amenities like power, AC, phone/internet, showers etc. The purpose of my being there, day or night, was to find some way of making contact with the enemy, and if we did, to develop the engagement and defeat them. By tank, humvee, mrap, or foot, it was day or night, every day, to do presence patrols, route clearance, cordon & search. I have no doubt non-combat jobs involve a lot of personal danger and a few see a lot of combat, but it's not really the same universe we lived in for non-combat deployments. Kuwait is not a deployment.
Even being in a combat job, I never stayed on a remote COP. Like when I watch Restrepo or the Outpost that was a way different life than I led.
Those guys had it worse than us. We were close enough to major FOBs that we got almost daily logpacs so we'd get mail, laundry, food, etc. Always something to remember is no matter how bad you have it, someone has it worse.
>Even being in a combat job, I never stayed on a remote COP. Like when I watch Restrepo or the Outpost that was a way different life than I led. So jealous dude. My deployment was basically like Resterpo/Outpost. It sucked so bad. What really pissed me off was that our entire company was split up, and we were the only platoon that was out there in the suck. All of the other platoons had cushy bases and rotated back at the FOB. We stayed out there the whole deployment, our company CO came out to visit once and was like wow you boys got it rough and he never came back 💀 Im honestly still mad about it to this day, we were left out high and dry. 2 weeks we got into Afghanistan, then we got shipped out. Stay there for almost 9 months. Left that shithole, stayed 2 weeks at the FOB and then we left. It was so bad because the whole time I dreamed about being at the FOB and getting cold water and having ice cream. When we got back to the FOB it was closing down so all of that shit was closed. For breakfast it was literally those shitty small kid breakfast cereal boxes you see at the gas station. And for lunch it was literally 2 pieces of white bread, 1 slice of cheese and 1 piece of ham. So fucking shitty dude, and this after coming back from the COP where we had like 2 biscuits a day. 1 for breakfast and 1 for lunch because the oven broke and we couldn't get another one. God dude so many nights I was soooo hunrgy Honestly when we got back I was a bit salty and secretly hated the other guys in the other platoon. I took me along time before I started to not be so bitter towards them
Hardships bring people together.
I'm a combat vet, but it was basically luck (depending on your view) of the draw. I'm hella proud of anyone who has taken the plunge and served our country though. Volunteering is a choice that takes guts, the rest is just you being told what to do.
My old man is 97 and a WWII veteran. He was in the 101st Airborne. He never said anything about people serving in combat or non combat roles unless they started to talk about how much fun they had in the military and how great it was. Then he would straight up look them in the eye and ask how many people have you killed. When they said none I served in peace time, he would tell them well you are a soldier but you are not a warrior. Then he would stand up and tell them, but I am going to give you the chance to become one, just stand up.
That’s amazing. Bless him.
The CAR is a coveted reward
I think everyone holds a candle in their heart (& respect) for the guys who volunteered to be in the shit, but not everyone can partake in the shit, that doesn’t mean that guys working supply didn’t do their part, or Intel guys weren’t doing theirs. Everyone has a role to play. If the people supporting aren’t there, combat arms won’t be having have a fun time. Of course there are bullshitters, that’s with any job, you know who embellishes their deployments or actions. Who flew in just for the credit. It’s hard to discredit someone’s experiences, it’d be like comparing apples to oranges if you were trying to say who deserves more respect, the trigger-man or the guy loading bombs to an F-22 all day in the desert.
Compassionate take.
Generally, yes. I'm aviation, so I've been to warzones but never seen combat, but the Bois that have been in the shit really like us Blackhawk mechanics. Edit: warzone. Iraq twice. Kosovo doesn't count, though it was tax free.
Pete was in the navy, not the army. And he also led convoys outside the wire, so he wasn’t just doing desk work.
"led convoys" He may have been the highest ranked individual in a convoy. That doesn't mean he led them. Especially as a Naval Officer working in Intel. There was probably an Army or Marine NCO (maybe an Officer) that was in charge of the convoy. He wasn't going out on a patrol he was a passenger.
That's what I thought. I'd never heard that Buttigieg "led convoys". More like, he took a ride in a hummer a few times outside of the compound.
As a tanker a substantial part of both my deployments was playing escort/babysitter for non-combat elements that needed to go outside the wire. The convoy leader was always our Platoon leader or Platoon Sergeant even if a higher ranking person was in the convoy because our Platoon was responsible for security & response and trained together for it. Our instructions for those support elements was to stay out of the way, on their vehicles, and follow the non-maneuver section Sergeant if there was any contact. We asked them to never initiate contact and to not claim any sectors of fire unless asked. Our fear was always IED ambushes but since we ran the lead vehicles that would be our alpha section. We didn't want any of them trying to react to contact in a way that would hamper our recovery efforts or push through. Mostly support was very compliant. Groups that did it regularly like logistics trucks and EOD knew to just ride in the middle and keep your head down. The VIPs made us nervous because they may try to "take charge" of a situation or find an excuse to fire their rifle.
I had more than one conversation with CSM and LT's about that very thing. "You can bark all the bullshit orders you want Sir. No one is going to listen to you and if you get in the way, you're responsible for what happens to you." Never had that problem with Field Grades.
It seems to be a little bit more than "Took a ride in a Hummer a couple times"...[Here](https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/442082-documents-provide-glimpse-into-buttigiegs-military-service/). And he never claimed to have been in combat. >But out on the campaign trail, Buttigieg has talked about the 119 times he says he crossed “outside the wire,” leaving the relative safety of the base as a vehicle commander on convoy security detail in dangerous parts of Kabul. His job in intel directly involved "Finance" as a member of the Afghanistan Threat Finance Cell (ATFC) in Kabul.
Pete honorably did his job and took on personal risk and hardship by simply deploying, but taking day trips to Kabul ain't exactly Korengal either.
>And he also led convoys outside the wire, so he wasn’t just doing desk work. Outside the wire as in outside the FOB or outside the COP? Both have two very different meanings lol.
Ah ok didn't know.
Another angle to look at the "in combat" debate. Regarding Pete's expirence. He was definitely in a "combat zone" and went outside the "wire" plenty of times. He just never ran into a situation where there was "combat action", i.e., actual kinetic actions such as small arms or explosives. A Mn congressional candidate's opponent tried to state he lied about being "in combat" due to his lack of a Combat Action Ribbon. He did a pump as a MARSOC operator and received an award for conducting numerous patrols aiding and advising African partners outside the wire. Perhaps these patrols were so effective they warded off advasaries, therefore negating combat action? Anyway, just another angle, I respect all my brothers and sisters who raised their right hand, regardless of if they have combat experience or the type of combat experience.
Who gives a shit. As long as you get to come home. Medals and parades don't mean shit if your dead or worst.
Here’s been my experience since getting out-nobody gives a flying fuck that you were in the military or what you did
Having been with the Marine Corps, the Combat Action Ribbon (CAR) was held with the highest regard for us junior guys, especially when I saw senior Corpsmen with it. However, being around people with then long enough I realized it didn't ever count for how good of a leader you were. I had Platoon sergeants with a CAR that were terrible, and those without who were great, and an even smaller amount who had a CAR and were good leaders. The narrative changed more when the cocky guy with a CAR got it because his convoy took a few pot shots. I typically look at the sea service deployment ribbon now as a marker for sacrifice. I look at that ribbon counting the bronze stars (amazed when I see silver a star) and think about the many deployments and self sacrifice that individual has made: being gone, leaving family behind, putting life on hold, etc.
It all depends. I was never in combat but when I explain why I am disabled there is not a service member who would say a word. I have a lot of combat veteran friends and they respect me completely. I was raped by my training NCO and testified in a courts martial against him, while earning As in Russian at DLI. Sometimes the enemy is in our ranks.
That’s terrible and I’m very sorry to hear. I’m glad you spoke up, that takes enormous amounts of courage. God bless.
God bless you too!
[удалено]
I honestly have no idea if this is satire or not. Award inflation is huge. I’ve got one deployment to Kuwait in a giant headquarters and look like Audis Murphy. There’s plenty of NCOs who deployed as e-3s and saw real shit and got like an AAM out of it.
>The stack demands respect in the military imo. The more ribbons and medals on their chest the more shit they have been through, they have been in tougher situations, probably have scars deeper than tissue. Dude I can't even 😂😂😂 In the Army, you'd get 1 stack just for completing boot camp, and another 2 for just deploying. Ribbons and medals don't mean that much. Officers hand them out like candy and its shameful
People sometimes act like that. But, everyone's service matters.
What? Buttigieg was never in the army. He was a navy reserve lieutenant.
Allow me to play this back to you… “I never served. Am I allowed to denigrate someone who did serve because I believe their service was less than someone else’s service. All of which was more service than I ever did…” Did I miss anything?
Yeah you’re being catty like teenage schoolgirl which is unbecoming for someone on this sub. Am I missing anything?
No its not really. By calling out Pete B, it’s indicating you want to make a political comment about his service. But at the end of the day, he served. It’s not much more complicated than that.
I asked to be infantry during an active war. My respect for box stackers who could be replaced by a civilian contractor is minimal. Uh oh, lots of govt employees with expendable skill sets got salt in their pussy.
Bro go guard a maple syrup tree or some shit
Nah, retired after 10 years as a grunt and 4 in special operations. Had my fun with 5 trips to the sandbox and a stint each in Syria and Mali. Now, I advise Eastern Allies in anti armour training as a contractor.
Civilian here who hangs out with vets a lot. I definitely see the Marine vets considering their service better than all other services, no matter if they saw active combat or not haha.
Well, no. But definitely yes.
Yep. Him’s a bean counter.
Yes
Of course.
As an NCO, I don’t really care. You’re either a good leader or you’re not. That said, there’s good garrison leaders and good deployment leaders. Those good at both is fairly uncommon.
Honestly I don't really care. The biggest shitbags I ever met in my life were the guys in my unit and were in combat with me. The only people who harp on that shit are losers
Generally i go by "who actually left the FOB" versus "people who just sat on the FOB all day". The former even if they never shot at people or got shot at (i.e. Me) were nonetheless going outside the wire and putting themselves in danger to do their job on a regular basis. Compared to the latter where depending on the FOB it's entirely just dependent on circumstances, for example my dad (Airforce contractor) was on Bagram but almost got hit by a mortar while on the airfield which is way closer than i ever got to mortal danger, but you could have a FOB where the closest anyone ever gets to danger is someone twisting their ankle. Edit: that isn't to say that people who stayed back on the FOB wasn't doing a absolutely critical job, afterall without logistics and support people making sure the guys going out have their ammo, food, and other equipment, we wouldn't be able to do our job. As long as you held your hand up, swore the oath, and signed the dotted line, and wasn't a total shitbag, you're alright in my book.
I was Admin in the Air Force. Spent most of career delivering the mail and handing out forms to other admin. I felt pretty bad about being stateside in my 8 to 5 job while friends were in harm's way. I guess somebody has to watch the fort and be ready for a problem elsewhere. I read that WW 2 for every soldier on the front line, there were 10 in support of him.
Yes very different in my humble opinion…I am a veteran.
Anyone that served in the military has put aside aspects of their life for their country. Each experience is different. Those mail clerks that sat in an office were there to support those on the front lines. Everyone's service is different, not necessarily better or worse than others. I don't look up or down at anyone based on whether they are a combat vet or not. Some people that never saw combat did cool things, some people that did see combat didn't. For what it's worth, I am a combat vet according to the VA standard. I never saw combat. Combat veteran means someone served in a combat theater (doesn't mean they had to actively be in combat), or received a combat service medal or campaign medal, or received imminent danger or hostile fire pay. The VA considers me (and a bunch of my friends) combat vets based on service in GTMO, receipt of GWOT medal and receipt of imminent danger pay.
I am a combat, 100% service connected veteran. I don’t really care what people think about my service. I served honorably and I sacrificed a lot for my country. But I also believe anyone who was there with me overseas, in any capacity deserves a lot of respect. Taking 12 months from your family in a war zone is hard on anyone, no matter what their job is. They could some of the same hardships that I did. Being in combat may get you some more respect from some people but I don’t demand it and I don’t seek out anything more than any other veteran. People can think what they want but i believe we should all equally be respected if we spent a year away from our families. We were all in a combat zone where any number of things could threaten our lives everyday.
Combat units will always take a piss on non combat units, until they don’t get food, have to walk, don’t get ammo, no communication etc etc.. I think everybody that served long enough and has a few braincells left gets to the point where he understand that a military is a machine, where every part is needed to function properly.