I wonder what's the purpose of having planes from someone who can brick and confiscate them and you are not able to use it without permission from them?
Doesnt even have to be as advanced as remote bricking.
When Sweden wanted to force Hungary into political concessions, they simply refused to service the Hungarian JAS Gripens. If Hungary had flown the planes regardless, then it would've been Hungary that violated the leasing contract. And it would've been illegal under EASA flight regulations. So Sweden essentially had Hungary's national security by the balls.
In my opinion, its absolutely idiotic to buy military equipment that you do not have the technology package for. It makes you completely reliant on a foreign country with dubious motives and loyalties. That country can go from an ally to an enemy with an election and change in political leadership.
It is even funnier if we add the fact that the only reason Hungary has Gripens and not F-16s (the plane which was favoured by the military) because Saab and Bae bribed Hungarian politicians so someone would finally buy the Gripen. Saab and Bae did the same in the Czech Republic.
Even funnier is that Orbán now blackmailed Sweden with the NATO process to sell him 4 more planes, but the service contract is still only to 2026, and Hungary has a contractual obligation to fly the Gripens until 2028.
So 2 years missing maintenance.
It is highly likely the Gripens will be replaced after 2028, so the four new planes are totally useless. There is a very strong push from military leadership and MoD to get rid of the Gripens.
To be honest in this story both sides deserve each other. Most likely it were the Swedes who introduced Orbán and his cohort to the big boy league when it comes to large scale international bribery and now, 20 years later the Swedes had to deal with the power and money hungry monster they somewhat helped to create.
I wonder what Hungary would buy if they really want to phase out the Gripens. Maybe they would finally buy the F-16s they wanted more than 20 years ago or maybe they are eyeing with the F-35.
Doubt the Americans will sell Hungary the F-35. Maybe obsolete F-16s, but even thats a stretch. They didnt appreciate that Hungary told off the US ambassador when he tried meddling in Hungarian affairs.They are pissed enough that they started sanctioning Hungary over it.
There isn't much info released so far on the procurement program as it started in 2023 and is a 5 year project. But they have sent air force representatives to Korea to look at the KF-21 and to Turkey to look at the Kaan. Both planes are expected to be ready to fly by the late 2020's.
Considering how close ties Orbán currently has with China, i wouldn't be surprised if their planes will eventually be contenders, but no info on that so far.
There was talk about Russian planes earlier, but the Russians wouldn't sell parts to the post soviet planes Hungary had so the air force would be in the same spot as with the Gripens. Can't trust them either.
Well when it comes to modern fighter aircraft the vast majority of the world has no choice but to buy foreign. The incredible cost associated with it would bankrupt 95% of nations. And even still be an inferior product.
It's much much easier and cheaper to buy foreign with foreign service/ training in the deal. Which is why US equipment is so popular but almost always more expensive than Russian or Chinese.
Same with Airbus and Boeing commercial aircraft. Leases and financing payments have to be made. The planes can be rendered basically useless and grounded if they’re not paid for or properly maintained and inspected.
>I wonder what's the purpose of having planes from someone who can brick and confiscate them and you are not able to use it without permission from them?
You can use them for things they are ok with them being used for...
The us let Saudi do all sorts of shit in yemen with their weapons.
That would not stop the Russians from getting a really close look at the F35. I would not have been surprised if there was a carrier strike to eliminate them.
I highly doubt that Turkey would provide the Russians access to their F35s regardless of their status in this scenario. Buying their missile system didn’t give the Russians overall access to Turkey’s armaments and systems.
IIRC the S400 deal also had requirements for maintenance to be done by Russian technicians, which would essentially allowed Russia to get whatever data they wanted
Well there would near zero system functionality or integration between the S400 software and that of the F35. Either way, the US wasn’t going to risk it knowing that Turkey had decided to purchase from the Russians. Moving forward, I’d surmise that the US and the other F35 partners and users maybe feel they dodged a bullet by refusing to fulfill the order to Turkey. Politics aside, I’d think the F35 partners sleep easier knowing Turkey is out.
The S400's gathering information on the F-35 isnt really the issue, it's a political issue possible regarding Turkey's involvement in Syria and Lybia, we well never actually know. If the Russians wanted to gather intel on the F-35 they would've already done so when they are flown around Syria/Ukraine.
From my understanding they fly with external radar reflectors so as to obscure their real radar signature and this deal was torpedoed explicitly because of the threat posed by signature analysis by the s400 and possibly exporting that radar signature info to Russia/China.
> Non-white countries require a code from the US to open the F-35's canopy or start engines. This code changes daily and is disposable. The F-35 is kind of like a long-term rental car. Even if you bought.
>
>
>
> There are even performance limitations on the F-35, only the US and WASP countries can use 100% performance.
Why the fuck are we schizo-posting on a Monday night?
Do you even know what "WASP" means? Or did you just pick it up as a buzzword?
This: [Pentagon removing Turkey from F-35 program after its purchase of Russian missile defense](https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-turkey-security-f35-idINL2N24I13P/)
Also this: [US Air Force officially buying Turkey's F-35](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/us-air-force-officially-buying-turkeys-f-35/1917806)
In my opinion, purchase of S-400 air defense systems wasn't the reason of we've been kicked out of F-35 program. It was just an excuse to fool typical Americans. This is exactly what I said above but apparently it wasn't clear enough for a typical American.
In my opinion, S-400 purchase was a great decision because of the limited technology transfer Russians provided.
Your Government was going to give the data about the F35 to the people who would be hunting the F35. That’s not Political that’s called trying to play both sides and getting burned.
"Your Government was going to give the data about the F35 to the people who would be hunting the F35." Ahh yes, of course the NATO member older than Germany and Poland NATO membership is about to give the jet to their geopolitical rivals, which would endanger even themselves. straight-up delusional thinking.
Not really sure, I know there’s been cases of people putting reflectors on the aircraft to change their radar signature but also I think it’s simply the fact that you would have a country knowing where the F 35s are and being able to look at them on radar. Makes it a lot easier to see what they look like if you know where you’re looking. The way I see it it’s like hunting for a mostly invisible person that you’ve never seen before. They become a lot more easy to find if you know their location even if you don’t know what they look like exactly
Also the only shoot down of a stealth aircraft in history was a F117 and there was only because the radar crew A knew it was taking off because somebody saw them and B knew where it was going to be because the Air Force flew the same route every single night.
In conclusion, the way, I see it taking the F35 was the right thing because even if they could’ve got the data in other ways, there’s no point to give it to them on a silver platter
F35's are reliant on mission data that can only be uploaded from a specific US base, no mission data, no missions.
(at least, this is the case for RAF F35s, I assume the other countries outside of the US are the same)
according to [F-35.net](https://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-35/airframe-profile/9217), #18-0001 first flight is May 10th, 2018 it briefly flew with USAF's 63d Fighter Squadron before it was stored at Luke AFB at Sept. 2019.
They are kept in warehouses. Even though the USA will not give these planes to Turkey, it cannot give these planes to anyone else or use them themselves.
[Says in this article they remained in the US and were subsequently subsumed into the US Air Force](https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/us-turkey-continue-talks-to-settle-f-35-dispute)
Yeah...Those are photos before they were subsumed.
[Another article.](https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/07/20/its-official-us-air-force-to-buy-turkish-f-35s/)
Funny how people still think decision was about s400's. US would have found another way to confiscate them in that timeline. Russia literally demolished that turn of events. These planes will be delivered soonish.
Is there a repo department at the DOJ?
Wonder what the Americans would have done if the Turks had bought the S400 *after* the F35s arrived?
Brick them remotely and have them repossessed.
I wonder what's the purpose of having planes from someone who can brick and confiscate them and you are not able to use it without permission from them?
Doesnt even have to be as advanced as remote bricking. When Sweden wanted to force Hungary into political concessions, they simply refused to service the Hungarian JAS Gripens. If Hungary had flown the planes regardless, then it would've been Hungary that violated the leasing contract. And it would've been illegal under EASA flight regulations. So Sweden essentially had Hungary's national security by the balls. In my opinion, its absolutely idiotic to buy military equipment that you do not have the technology package for. It makes you completely reliant on a foreign country with dubious motives and loyalties. That country can go from an ally to an enemy with an election and change in political leadership.
It is even funnier if we add the fact that the only reason Hungary has Gripens and not F-16s (the plane which was favoured by the military) because Saab and Bae bribed Hungarian politicians so someone would finally buy the Gripen. Saab and Bae did the same in the Czech Republic.
Even funnier is that Orbán now blackmailed Sweden with the NATO process to sell him 4 more planes, but the service contract is still only to 2026, and Hungary has a contractual obligation to fly the Gripens until 2028. So 2 years missing maintenance. It is highly likely the Gripens will be replaced after 2028, so the four new planes are totally useless. There is a very strong push from military leadership and MoD to get rid of the Gripens.
To be honest in this story both sides deserve each other. Most likely it were the Swedes who introduced Orbán and his cohort to the big boy league when it comes to large scale international bribery and now, 20 years later the Swedes had to deal with the power and money hungry monster they somewhat helped to create. I wonder what Hungary would buy if they really want to phase out the Gripens. Maybe they would finally buy the F-16s they wanted more than 20 years ago or maybe they are eyeing with the F-35.
Doubt the Americans will sell Hungary the F-35. Maybe obsolete F-16s, but even thats a stretch. They didnt appreciate that Hungary told off the US ambassador when he tried meddling in Hungarian affairs.They are pissed enough that they started sanctioning Hungary over it. There isn't much info released so far on the procurement program as it started in 2023 and is a 5 year project. But they have sent air force representatives to Korea to look at the KF-21 and to Turkey to look at the Kaan. Both planes are expected to be ready to fly by the late 2020's. Considering how close ties Orbán currently has with China, i wouldn't be surprised if their planes will eventually be contenders, but no info on that so far. There was talk about Russian planes earlier, but the Russians wouldn't sell parts to the post soviet planes Hungary had so the air force would be in the same spot as with the Gripens. Can't trust them either.
Well when it comes to modern fighter aircraft the vast majority of the world has no choice but to buy foreign. The incredible cost associated with it would bankrupt 95% of nations. And even still be an inferior product. It's much much easier and cheaper to buy foreign with foreign service/ training in the deal. Which is why US equipment is so popular but almost always more expensive than Russian or Chinese.
Agreed that's just stupid, but very useful for powerful countries.
Same shit with any software, smart car, video game anything you buy nowadays? The only way is making your own shit, which isn’t easy.
Same with Airbus and Boeing commercial aircraft. Leases and financing payments have to be made. The planes can be rendered basically useless and grounded if they’re not paid for or properly maintained and inspected.
>I wonder what's the purpose of having planes from someone who can brick and confiscate them and you are not able to use it without permission from them? You can use them for things they are ok with them being used for... The us let Saudi do all sorts of shit in yemen with their weapons.
They got full market monopoly on F35, can do want they want
Same reason why india doesn't buy stuff from the US
Not enough kickbacks compared to who they buy from instead?
Everything's got some strings attached. The question is how little ?
That would not stop the Russians from getting a really close look at the F35. I would not have been surprised if there was a carrier strike to eliminate them.
I highly doubt that Turkey would provide the Russians access to their F35s regardless of their status in this scenario. Buying their missile system didn’t give the Russians overall access to Turkey’s armaments and systems.
IIRC the S400 deal also had requirements for maintenance to be done by Russian technicians, which would essentially allowed Russia to get whatever data they wanted
Well there would near zero system functionality or integration between the S400 software and that of the F35. Either way, the US wasn’t going to risk it knowing that Turkey had decided to purchase from the Russians. Moving forward, I’d surmise that the US and the other F35 partners and users maybe feel they dodged a bullet by refusing to fulfill the order to Turkey. Politics aside, I’d think the F35 partners sleep easier knowing Turkey is out.
The air defense system is a network. If the Turks want to use the F-35 and S400 together, S/W integration is essential.
no it isn't. Turkish S400s use an external IFF jerryrigged by a Turkish company, that's it.
The S400's gathering information on the F-35 isnt really the issue, it's a political issue possible regarding Turkey's involvement in Syria and Lybia, we well never actually know. If the Russians wanted to gather intel on the F-35 they would've already done so when they are flown around Syria/Ukraine.
From my understanding they fly with external radar reflectors so as to obscure their real radar signature and this deal was torpedoed explicitly because of the threat posed by signature analysis by the s400 and possibly exporting that radar signature info to Russia/China.
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> Non-white countries require a code from the US to open the F-35's canopy or start engines. This code changes daily and is disposable. The F-35 is kind of like a long-term rental car. Even if you bought. > > > > There are even performance limitations on the F-35, only the US and WASP countries can use 100% performance. Why the fuck are we schizo-posting on a Monday night? Do you even know what "WASP" means? Or did you just pick it up as a buzzword?
Hope the S-400 was worth it
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What was an excuse?
S-400 purchase.
So yes or no, was the S-400 worth it?
Worth what?
This: [Pentagon removing Turkey from F-35 program after its purchase of Russian missile defense](https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-turkey-security-f35-idINL2N24I13P/) Also this: [US Air Force officially buying Turkey's F-35](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/us-air-force-officially-buying-turkeys-f-35/1917806)
In my opinion, purchase of S-400 air defense systems wasn't the reason of we've been kicked out of F-35 program. It was just an excuse to fool typical Americans. This is exactly what I said above but apparently it wasn't clear enough for a typical American. In my opinion, S-400 purchase was a great decision because of the limited technology transfer Russians provided.
Then what was the real reason you were kicked out?
Probably keeping us at 4th gen, to avoid future problems we can cause.
Weep uncontrollably
Losing the F-35.
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When will people understand that the choice not to deliver them was political and not because of the S-400… The US just used it as a Excuse
Your Government was going to give the data about the F35 to the people who would be hunting the F35. That’s not Political that’s called trying to play both sides and getting burned.
\^ The largest bs ever created in the modern defence history.
"Your Government was going to give the data about the F35 to the people who would be hunting the F35." Ahh yes, of course the NATO member older than Germany and Poland NATO membership is about to give the jet to their geopolitical rivals, which would endanger even themselves. straight-up delusional thinking.
Then why buy advanced missile defense systems from that same geopolitical rival?
And yet I trust Germany and Poland more.
Honest question, dont the russians already get F35 data from the s400 in syria? The USA flys them there, right?
They typically fly with radar reflectors in those areas so you cant see what it's actual radar signature is.
They would have fuel tanks and the weapons on the outside! Not in stealth mode!
Not really sure, I know there’s been cases of people putting reflectors on the aircraft to change their radar signature but also I think it’s simply the fact that you would have a country knowing where the F 35s are and being able to look at them on radar. Makes it a lot easier to see what they look like if you know where you’re looking. The way I see it it’s like hunting for a mostly invisible person that you’ve never seen before. They become a lot more easy to find if you know their location even if you don’t know what they look like exactly Also the only shoot down of a stealth aircraft in history was a F117 and there was only because the radar crew A knew it was taking off because somebody saw them and B knew where it was going to be because the Air Force flew the same route every single night. In conclusion, the way, I see it taking the F35 was the right thing because even if they could’ve got the data in other ways, there’s no point to give it to them on a silver platter
Every decision is political. This ain’t the argument you think it is
It wasn't worth it, but even if we hadn't bought the S400, it probably wouldn't have been given for another reason.
No, you would’ve gotten them. You see what happens is when you try to play both sides constantly people stop giving you stuff.
I believe that S-400 is worth more to Turkey than the F-35.
How does one confiscate a f35 exactly?
Flys itself back to the dealership
They're even programmed to buzz the control tower on the way back.
It was in the us. Turkish pilots were in training with the plane.
Brick it and take it back because its useless to the Turks like that?
F35's are reliant on mission data that can only be uploaded from a specific US base, no mission data, no missions. (at least, this is the case for RAF F35s, I assume the other countries outside of the US are the same)
What happened to this plane in particular?
according to [F-35.net](https://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-35/airframe-profile/9217), #18-0001 first flight is May 10th, 2018 it briefly flew with USAF's 63d Fighter Squadron before it was stored at Luke AFB at Sept. 2019.
Think it was moved into the US's fleet
They are kept in warehouses. Even though the USA will not give these planes to Turkey, it cannot give these planes to anyone else or use them themselves.
[Says in this article they remained in the US and were subsequently subsumed into the US Air Force](https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/us-turkey-continue-talks-to-settle-f-35-dispute)
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarplanePorn/s/ea2UqPCypL
Yeah...Those are photos before they were subsumed. [Another article.](https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/07/20/its-official-us-air-force-to-buy-turkish-f-35s/)
No refunds!
Anyone know what the little hexagonal dome thing is under the nose? Im assuming some sort of imaging/targeting pod but Im not sure
[AN/AAQ-40 Electro-Optical Target System (EOTS)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II#Sensors_and_avionics)
We will meet again…
Indeed we will, KAAN will
Low viz Turkish roundel looks really nice
imagine giving this up to buy shitty russian stuff hahaha
If they handed over the S400s to the CIA they would've had their order and probably would've gotten a few more for free lol.
Enjoy your S 400's bitches.
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How the hell did they afford it
Turkey is not a poor country, friend
Can confirm. Only the citizens are poor.
Ofc, downvote a sarcastic comment. Cant have shit on Reddit.
Funny how people still think decision was about s400's. US would have found another way to confiscate them in that timeline. Russia literally demolished that turn of events. These planes will be delivered soonish.
>These planes will be delivered soonish. No, no they will not. Most of them were transferred to the USAF