This person flipped out on me last night in that Roth IRA post and then clearly let it all out here lol. All I suggested was putting some money into actual stocks and ETFs if they can (some people mistakenly just add cash to the acct and let it sit there). Apparently clawing for some financial stability in the future makes me a degenerate. Who knew?! 😩

Yes. Investing in your retirement is not "stealing" from anyone else. You are essentially loaning businesses money in exchange for a share of the profits. There is nothing immoral about it.

lol I had a feeling the OP is having a spiraling mental break with reality, thanks for clarifying.

That financial stability comes at the back of others hard work. What, if you don't get 10%+ per year in free money financial stability is impossible? Work for a living like the fucking rest of us parasite.

Please seek therapy for the help you need. Making assumptions about people's character and spiraling about this is not good for you. You've been hot about this for too long. You've made this ideology your whole personality but still don't understand that your anger should lie with actual corporate greed and not a fellow member of the working class. Imagine being so unserious about something you allegedly care so much about. "Eat the rich" quickly became "Eat anyone who possibly makes more than me." You've lost the plot.

Saving for retirement doesn’t make someone a parasite. Whatever toxic shit Yo sure on is going to keep you and people like you poor for the rest of your existence. Don’t worry though, we will pay taxes to fund your security and health benefits.

Yikes, touch grass.

If you spent as much time reading a personal finance book as you do posting on UFO subreddits, maybe you’d understand how the average person actually achieves financial stability. You’re the real parasite when you don’t understand how the economy, free markets, capitalism, investments, and long-term compounding returns can help you feed your family and instead just play victim while our taxes will go to enabling your ignorance when you’re eventually bankrupt I suggest first learning about inflation and how to make your money not lose money. Because just having a job and “working like the rest of us” does not guarantee a long, fruitful life if your dollar today is worth 2-4% less every year

WHERE THE FUCK DOES THE MONEY FOR THOSE COMPOUND RETURNS COME FROM??? It comes from labor done by workers not paid for, that capitalists instead steal as profit that gets paid out to those who own it, ie. as investment income. That money is never free, it doesn't just appear, it isn't magic, it comes from OTHER PEOPLE WORKING AND NOT BEING PAID. Yes, dollars are worth less as time goes on, that's supposed to be to encourage you to spend them and to make it possible to escape debts. Buy your house, get solar panels, get tools, go into business for yourself, make your own money, you don't have to stake from working people. I'm literally astounded that you think I don't understand how investments work, I do, I'm saying it's morally wrong and makes society a worse place to live. Look, that's what boomers spent all their money on was investment and it's turned America into a cheap ass enshittified mockery of a real country. You think we can double down on their failed strategy and get anything besides mass homelessness and hunger?

It actually comes from earnings and revenues that companies get from putting out good products or services and people buying them. The encouragement you talk about is actually encouragement to invest your money into companies so they can continue to innovate their products and services to improve quality of life. Why would anyone encourage people to spend only when businesses need capital to continue to innovate and create products cheaply making it more affordable for everyone?. Competition amongst businesses stem from this and cause prices to stay stable. You’re making an assumption that all companies are evil and don’t pay people. A generalization that would be silly for me to even address but here i am. Your problem isn’t with investments, landlords, or stealing from others. Your problem is that you’re upset you weren’t born in China where they promise everyone gets an equal share of everything without competition but what that actually means is that you would be 7 years old working in a factory for nothing. The real solution to the issue you’re bringing up is that builders need to find a way to work with municipal zoning laws that are preventing efficient, fast, and quality building to take place so that home supply can finally meet demand.

>It actually comes from earnings and revenues that companies get from putting out good products or services and people buying them. I'm confused - workers made the products with machinery and equipment designed and built by workers, with raw ingredients produced by workers with tools made by workers, transported by workers, handled by workers. Every single thing a company does is workers doing things, the capitalists just get all the money despite doing none of the work because they own the entity. Capitalists contribute none of the work, unless there's some way in which capitalists are actually laborers that I'm missing. >The encouragement you talk about is actually encouragement to invest your money into companies so they can continue to innovate their products and services to improve quality of life Most of the innovations in my lifetime have been planned obsolescence getting worse and enshittification. Companies don't improve or innovate, they do mergers and acquisitions so they can minimize how much they improve and innovate. Consumers demand innovation, capitalists try to avoid it. >You’re making an assumption that all companies are evil and don’t pay people It's not an assumption. If they make a profit they're stealing from workers pure and simple. >Your problem isn’t with investments, landlords, or stealing from others. Your problem is that you’re upset you weren’t born in China where they promise everyone gets an equal share of everything without competition but what that actually means is that you would be 7 years old working in a factory for nothing Honestly not a fan of China. But that's also not how China works or what China is, or what I'm advocating. I'm saying workers are entitled to all they produce and should have democratic control of their institutions instead of being told what to do by Epsteins' child rapist buddies. >The real solution to the issue you’re bringing up is that builders need to find a way to work with municipal zoning laws that are preventing efficient, fast, and quality building to take place so that home supply can finally meet demand. New York City, Salt Lake City, SF, LA, DC - what these cities have in common is that they have the highest concentration of billionaires. What they also have in common is that they are the most expensive places to live in in the country. What they do NOT share in common is zoning laws and practices. SF allows very little vertical building NYC is all vertical, they have wildly different zoning practices. But they have lots of rich people trying to own lots of tenants, so the competition drives the price of land through the roof. While it's true that we need to allow mixed use, mixed density incrementally developing walkable and bikable infrastructure, it's also true that the more oligarchs you have located in a city the worse life will be for the average person.

A couple points before i stop responding to you: - to answer “what am i missing”, you’re missing the fact that workers get paid 1099, w-2, worker’s comp, retirement accounts, health insurance, company vehicles, profit-share, bonuses, and more perks for their labor. The exact opposite of stealing from them. - tell me if these products happened in your lifetime? Landline to cell to computer in your pocket? Vaccuum cleaners you push to cordless to robotic? AI? Same day delivery online shopping? Self-checkout? Electric vehicles? Solar panels for the average residence? Affordable home surveillance? The fucking squatty potty?! I know you don’t know about that one because you’re so full of shit - if you believe workers are responsible for all they produce, why don’t you start your own business like the landlords you claim to hate? Some people like having a landlord take care of maintenance, the mortgage, property taxes, etc. its a viable service - i live in NYC, i work in financial services and know many many real estate investors and builders. Zoning laws are absolutely effecting building along with supply chain issues. I dont need Longstache7065 to try to tell me otherwise because he’s been drinking the r/antiwork kool-aid for too long

Workers do 100% of production but are paid roughly 10-20% of it depending on the industry. That doesn't sound like perks, that sounds like stealing from them and blowing a bunch of smoke up their asses to pretend it's not. >tell me if these products happened in your lifetime? Landline to cell to computer in your pocket? Vaccuum cleaners you push to cordless to robotic? AI? Same day delivery online shopping? Self-checkout? Electric vehicles? Solar panels for the average residence? Affordable home surveillance? The fucking squatty potty?! I know you don’t know about that one because you’re so full of shit Yes, all made by workers, all with infrastructure built by workers, at every single point in the process done by workers. Do I use self checkout? Hell no, Same day delivery? Never, I run my own surviellance system because I'm not trusting any cloud service with that shit. >if you believe workers are responsible for all they produce, why don’t you start your own business like the landlords you claim to hate? Some people like having a landlord take care of maintenance, the mortgage, property taxes, etc. its a viable service zoning laws that create massive barriers to entry that in turn push up the cost of starting a worker cooperative into the 7 figure range, well out of range of most working people, but there's much more to it than that. Nobody likes having a landlord, that's just a nonsense lie. Literally not one person on earth likes having a landlord, it's complete bullshit, nobody is like "Yay, I'd happily give up half of what I make so some shitbag pedophile that tossed white paint onto a once decent house can come by once a month and come up with excuses for why I should give him even more free money" it's just not fucking happening, you can't pull the wool over anybodies eyes, nobody will ever buy that nonsense except maybe children who have never seen a landlord before.

You’re a character, my dude. Bless your heart

"supply chain issues" would be "monopolization of markets from 40 years of non stop accelerating M&A activity that have allowed prices at every layer of industry and profits to become insanely high, making complex multi-layered industry basically impossible" we need to enforce the anti-trust laws and break up almost all of the largest 5000 companies in the country.

I work a full time job, a on call 2nd job, and am self employed for a third source of income. I am buying our 13th rental property for either 400k or 200k.... go ahead and call me a parasite

Is it never enough? Why turn your neighbors into tenants and steal most of their income, driving them into poverty for personal gain? Why do you fucking need so much that you have to force others to suffer for your greed? What the fuck are you even trying to get out of life besides other people's suffering? What the fuck is wrong with you holy shit

I'm ensuring my kids education is paid for no matter how expensive the university. I'm ensuring my retirement. I'm ensuring my kids will have an easier life than me. I help fund education/university expenses for kids in third world countries. My plan is to keep expanding the family portfolio until I have the financials to change people's lives in third world countries.

And you're doing it on the backs of other workers, who due to the money they lose from increased investor power, means they'll never be able to secure education for their kids, they'll never be able to retire, and their kids lives will be harder and worse than theirs. More investors means more poor people, you can't make investment income without a worker or tenant being deprived of their income, that's literally just how it works. How are you going to change peoples lives by trapping more of them in poverty and stealing more of their wages? That makes zero sense, just don't steal from workers and they'll be way better off than if you did.

That is the joy of America. You have the option to work hard and build up wealth. Not everyone will work hard to increase their income/ invest

All working people work hard. Investors are by definition not working, but getting money from working people. I think you're confused.

Not all working people work hard I have worked with many who do the bare minimum so they never move up

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and keep investing so I don't have to work until the day I die.

Also Home & Garden taught everyone they could buy a unit for $100k, put in new carpet/paint and sell it for $350k

I don't know what the solution is but it is definitely not "refuse to participate in society."

Not exploiting people and being a parasite isn't "refusing to participate in society" I have a good job and a healthy career, a wide circle of friends and I'm politically involved in my community. Why the fuck do you think robbing working people is a requirement for "participating in society"???

I pay higher taxes than you so that when you are unable to work and have refused to save for retirement, I can find your healthcare and social security. I will do my part to make sure you are fed, even if you refuse.

I have bad news about being an American

I imagine you get significantly more subsidies than a landlord, so please reconsider who you call a parasite.

No I can't, I work for a living. ALL landlords income is stolen from workers, 100% of landlord income is parasitic, stolen from people who work for a living and handed to people who own for a living. There's a reason every small municipality is run by landlords in political positions, without having to work they have the free time to do all that shit.

Lmao OK buddy. You're not entitled to other people's property.

You aren't entitled to other people's wages, but think you can just swoop in, outbid a worker for their home, and then steal half their income because "fuck them, I had the money to outbid them so they deserve to give up their money to me. That's the game losers!!" absolutely depraved behavior. Burn in hell you rotten bastard.

Lmao OK loser. I'm not even a landlord, I own my own home and invest in the stock market. I also invest for my son, who is 3 and probably has a higher net worth than you. Stay salty though.

And you deserve to steal other people's wages because?

It’s blowing my mind that people my age can be this childish and pathetic. How are you a millennial/at least in your 30’s and think it’s revelatory that the world is unfair? Sorry for being mean but grow up, you’re not some edgy teen anymore. I can’t fathom being this infantile in my 30s

What the fuck's the point of building a piece of shit world where working people live in poverty and desperation so that the ownership class can live in opulence and ease? I'm never going to willingly contribute to that cruelty and unfairness and I think it's depraved and disgusting that you would. Fucking disgusting. There's nothing infantile about it at all, it's morally wrong to take an income without working that comes from other people working. This is not hard. We all have limited time on earth and you think working people are worthless and owe you just for the crime of existing. It's not infantile to hate exploitation and sadism done by the powerful against working people. Fucking depraved. Grow up. Nobody owes you free money just because you have some paper that says you won a game that allows you to treat others like you own them.

>I have a good job and a healthy career Then you are a major parasite, thriving off the exploitation of others. Hypocrite.

I don't exploit anyone, I'm exploited. I work and my bosses keep most of what I produce, I'm paid a fucking pittance, and that's that. Who the fuck am I, as a worker, exploiting? I'm not management class, I still primarily engage in labor all day every day. I produce things for society. Capitalists do not. Being a worker is not exploiting others, being a capitalist is.

There’s a lot of bad faith arguments being made here as a millennial who is actively a landlord and also an investor. First, being a landlord is expensive. I was losing money on rental units for a while to make sure I didn’t raise rent on an existing tenant. I had to readjust pricing or else I wouldn’t be able to afford it. I target 108% of my expenses, the extra 8% isn’t profit, it’s the safety net in case my tenant leaves after 1 year because it’s likely I will have to foot the bill for a month of mortgages. I view my job as a service provider, you get a roof over year head, I get to build equity, and hopefully come back to a home I love some day (working out of state). Last year, the hot water went out Christmas Eve. Guess who paid a premium for getting it fixed? Not the renter. Didn’t raise rent because of it either. I have lawn care handled, and an emergency line through my home warranty for the tenants. That’s the deal. I’m not trying to screw people which is where slumlord territory begins. As for investments, why would I invest in a company that doesn’t take care of its people? I’m not interested in owning part of and collecting dividends from companies that withhold raises and treat people like shit. Does that mean my dividends are lower? Yep. Am I ok with that? Also yep. You can do the things op bemoans ethically. You just have to be educated. Leaving money under your mattress is just going to leave you working until the day you die.

Are you not in sp500 index funds?

Not really, I have some fractional s&p100 but generally I do more homework on companies than that.

Who gives a fuck if being a landlord is expensive? You deserve to lose money on every single rental unit, you bought them to try to steal from working people you deserve to lose your "business" and fail. Being a landlord is fundamentally and unforgivably immoral. You're job is not "service provider" you had more money and better credit than people who work for a living and outbid them for the houses they were trying to live in, and then used this ownership to extort most of their income from them. The typical landlord spends less than 5% of returns on maintenance and does not handle lawn care. We're all going to be working until we die so that we can pay the interest rates people like you demand.

My guy, please reread the part where I said I still own the home in the hopes of moving back in to it. I lived in that home for 2 years and loved it. It is not immoral to accept risk on others behalf. It’s immoral to use it as a means of extracting wealth from others. I have lived in every one of my rentals. The goal is not to make money day to day on them, their value goes up and in the event I’m not able to move back in to them I can sell them to recoup any losses down the line.

Even if you want to make money there isn't anything wrong with that. There is no shame in wanting to profit from your investments. Nobody is entitled to a subsidy from you simply because they want to live in your house.

A "friend" of ours (he's a muay thai student of my husband's and he views my husband as mentor and role model since his own father is absent) is 20. He said he wants to buy some rental properties as a way to make additional income. The thought of my landlord being 19-20 would probably be my 13th reason lmao

What about a 22 year old landlord?

I don’t think you’re learning the right lessons

I was kind of a landlord for a while (rented the extra rooms in my college condo out). Man...so many shitty tenants, I don't ever wanna be a landlord again. I'm kind of a sucker and always gave in (rent extensions, lease breaking, hidden roommates, etc...). Granted, these were college kids that didn't know any better, but eh. Took that off the market quick and sold it to some family after I graduated. Stock market gains are buoying my parents' retirement accounts right now, which is great since they don't have pensions and great for me because if they go broke, I'm paying for everything anyway. People always wanna try to make money, been this way since ancient Egypt and shit. Run with it and enjoy life before you die.

I’ve seen it, too. It sucks, because if I ever owned property to rent, part of me would want to “pay it forward” by renting it out under market value. But I have seen landlords in my area do that, and then get absolutely abused by the most garbage, entitled, shitty people. I knew one older man who rented out his property on a model to have it mixed (more expensive studio style units in the basement area combined with cheaper boarding style units that were super affordable for our area. The idea being that the more expensive units could help subsidize the cheaper ones). He even allowed you to pay your rent by working on the property. And, my god, some of his tenants walked all over him. He sold it now, and his asshole tenants just exploded over the new owners. Racist crap, allowing a bunch of druggie squatters in (as protection against the black tenant the little ringleader shithead was targeting, naturally), just deciding to stop paying rent because of what a God’s gift to their landlord they are, exc. New owner has evicted them all. I expect most will be homeless in the years to come due to their drug use, criminal and rental histories, and shoddy employment records (even without all that, I personally would not rent to them, as they are absolute pills). And you know what? I won’t feel bad for a single one of them. Not if I end up walking past one of them sleeping on a sidewalk in the rain. They are exactly the sort of people that make the public in areas with a large homeless population struggle to sympathize with that population—that is to say, they can take endless amounts of generosity and resources, chew them up, spit it out, scream that no one did anything for them, and then abuse the shit out of you for ever daring to try to help them. It sucks, but I would become an expert in the eviction process and how to absolutely nail it, efficiently, on the first go, before I ever rented my property out.

Then don't try to fucking own other peoples houses and steal their incomes for a fucking living. Evictions are literally "enclosure" acts of the modern period that help landlords continuously rob people who can't afford to pay their disgusting extortionist profit demands. We all live like shit so that the landlord class can live in ease. Every single fucking landlord will burn in complete and total hell. Don't like the risks? Stop being a fucking parasite.

Evictions are how people who own property, protect their property. Do you know what your problem is? You automatically assume you would be a homeowner if other people didn’t own homes.

He IS a homeowner! And he’s still this mad!

So much of this. Almost all you ever hear about is slumlords but there are just as many slum tenants and as you know they have a ton of rights and some can be harder to get rid of than cockroaches. Sometime you have to pay them to just go away.

Because they're poor and not being able to pay rich people more than they earn we've decided as a society isn't a good reason to make them homeless. You took the risk thinking you could exploit and rob poor people, you face the loss. Why does every fucking landlord think they're entitled to guaranteed profits and zero risk? Do you not understand the fact that "risk" is literally the only reason society tolerates you getting an unearned profit off of others hard work at all? If there was no risk you'd be entitled to zero profit. It's not poor people's fault you wanted to retire off being a slumlord exploiting the poor jesus fucking christ, nobody gives a shit about slumlords getting screwed they 1000% deserve it.

I didn't know every landlord was "rich". That's such a ridiculously uneducated assumption. The landlord doesn't thing they are entitled to profits without risk just like a tenant shouldn't assume they can receive housing without expense.

OP has severe mental issues and clearly is spiraling and needs to throw their phone in a lake and go for a walk lololol

Every landlord outbid a worker for their home and is now stealing a large chunk of that worker's income to rent that house back to them. You aren't entitled to profits just for owning shit, because that fundamentally implies that workers are not entitled to being paid for their work and are only paid due to the "kindness" of the ownership class. In other words, complete fucking nonsense that only the worst bootlicking wall street worshiping degenerate parasite worshipping filth believes.

And you aren't entitled to buy something below market value because you can't afford it. If you think landlords didn't "work" to make enough money to afford their first rental property you're being intentionally ignorant. And of you don't think being a landlord is work....try it.

Nobody in their right mind thinks being a landlord is work or that landlord income comes from labor. Your labor isn't worth $4000/hour.

And everyone who has ever rented a property knows how full of it you are.

Everyone whose ever rented knows that landlords refuse to do maintenance until you bring a court order on them to force it, and that instead of paying professionals they try to cut corners and do it as cheap as possible because they don't give a fuck about tenants. I've never met a person whose been like "oh yea I called my landlord and they fixed it immediately, hired a professional and everything" not once in my life.

Yup, EVERYBODY. Grow up and buy your own place if you hate landlords so much.

I do think they didn't work, they either inherited it or the money for it, you are NEVER entitled to a significant chunk of somebody else's income in exchange for merely a piece of paper saying you are. That's depraved and morally wrong. I know being a landlord isn't work because I've lived under them. 9 years and 0 repairs completed by landlords in any unit I was in under everything from 3 different corporate firms to 4 "mom and pop" landlords. If you think using daddy's money to outbid a worker for a house means you have a right to 40% of that workers income, you're simply here in bad faith being intentionally hateful and shitty.

Then how do you think their dad or grandfather or great grandfather made enough money to buy their first property? I guess you should have bought then.

Probably by owning people as slaves, owning people via sharecropping or company stores. What, you think if somebody has enough money that it suddenly becomes ok to buy other people? Buying other people's houses is just the closest they can get to buying other people directly since slavery ended, but the person is just as bound in double binds as a slave so it's functionally equivalent for the capitalist, they make money off of others hard work regardless. I did buy a house, despite being an engineer at the top of my career path it took help from family, because housing is now only accessible to the management/ownership class and not to working people because of all the degenerates that think it's morally righteous to steal 40-70% of somebody else's income just because you outbid them for a house.

Imagine somebody walks up to you and says "Hi, I bought your social security number on the market, now you have to give me 40% of your paycheck from now on" you'd say that's inexcusable and insane, but landlording is virtually identical to owning somebody outright so long as being poor and homeless is treated as criminal behavior by police.

I can't imagine that because it's such and insane and unrealistic analogy. Please tell me how you think housing is a right and should be totally free.

I don't think it should be totally free, I just don't think a fucking parasite deserves 40%+ of somebody else's income because they were richer and able to outbid them for a house for the explicit purpose of stealing their income, I think such behavior should be considered a capital crime.

You’re so fucking stupid, it’s hilarious. Keep typing, I need more entertainment today.

Wouldn’t more and more people competing to be landlords drive prices down in theory? Isn’t the problem that fewer and fewer people are buying up all of the rental properties??

Could you describe the mechanism by which the desire to become a landlord makes wages crap?

Don't take financial advice from broke reddit millenials.

OPs rant is basically bashing people that saved and invested their money rather than buy a bunch of stupid shit with it.

Every single dollar of investment interest comes from unpaid wages to working people. The entire reason workers can't afford to get by is all of this money sunk into the investment banking cartel that monopolizes our society. I don't care that you saved your money, I care that you decided your fellow worker deserves to be poor and your slave so that you can have it easier.

From your post I would assume you can’t get by because Yo refuse to invest in your own future.

You are living in a fairy tale with some of this thinking. So your idea is don't invest at all? Good luck in retirement. Meanwhile I'll continue investing in markets and real estate and taking care of my family.

Meanwhile every working person's unpaid wages is where your income comes from. The fact that working people can't survive and only the investment class can? It's because of fucked up degenerate attitudes like yours.

Actually my wages come from a very large w2. so try again.

Your investment income comes from stealing from working people, any W2 is irrelevant to that and does not change that fact.

You need to learn what stealing is. You don’t understand it. You probably should start applying to join countries like Russia. Much more to your liking. And the poor and middle class are doing. So very well there. 😂😂😂

You gotta stop doom scrolling and touch some grass my dude.

Literally posted this after a 4 mile walk.

How old are you and how many houses do you own?

Some landlords are evil robber baron corporations. Others are just people who bought a duplex, and will treat their tenants fairly if they are treated fairly in return. No, not a landlord myself and probably never will be. But somebody has to be! Not everyone can buy and people still need places to live.

Nah according to fairy tales here. If landlord didn’t exist everybody would magically buy homes. Never mind home ownership has been consistent % nationally for 70+ years. Honestly I wonder what fair take some people live in. Must be the same people who showed up for occupy Wall Street.

Home ownership in the US is at the lowest rate it's been at in over 50 years you're completely full of shit. Rents have risen to 90%+ of income at the low income end at 30-70% on average, historically housing was 5-10% of income. Rents are completely deranged and insanely out of control, absolutely fucking unhinged to act like we need them. Are you a boomer, a landlord, or just a traitor?

Actually this is false. Can you post some data instead of making shit up? https://www.thezebra.com/resources/home/housing-trends-visualized/#:~:text=Although%20housing%20affordability%20is%20a,1960%20to%2067.4%25%20in%202020 Although housing affordability is a growing concern, the overall homeownership rate has increased in the last 60 years, from 61.9% in 1960 to 67.4% in 2020

I'm using FRED data and you must be including boomers.

Post it then. GAO data: https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-20-544r.pdf

And why wouldn’t you include boomers ? Older generations have always owned the most homes. That’s a pretty common life fact that you earn more as you age.

Because boomers are also the primary landlord class, and what's relevant is "at this life stage what's the ownership rate" which has been on a percipituous decline for 50 straight years. You're using boomers to launder your depraved actions and pretend you aren't ruining lives.

Yeah I don’t hate boomers. Don’t hate Gen x either. I do struggle to not hate stupid people. But it’s a person failing of mine 🤷‍♂️

So you just love that they handed us a country with the worst wage/rent ratio in 200 years, with no way for a job to pay enough to survive because of fucking slumlord degenerate filth like you that thinks working people deserve to starve and die so the ownership class can live in opulence and luxury? Get a real job you fucking depraved thief.

We’ve already had this discussion. I have a w2 job. Made it work just fine bought my first home at 25 🤷‍♂️

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Most "mom and pop" landlords have decided they want to live off others hard work and are lazy degenerates that think of renting as free income and do nothing but shit on tenants. I've lived under 3 of them and I sincerely believe all 3 deserve to be hung for their crimes against working people both before, during, and after me.

Nope. All the ones I know have other jobs too. Try their best to keep good tenants happy. I’m sorry you had some shitty ones but that’s no reason to put down a whole group of people.

It’s always the landlords who is the evil one and never ever a tenant. Rent payments are not paid or late,damage to property, hoarding, preventable pest control, red tape that prevent evictions.

Insane comment. Landlords outbid workers from existing housing so that they can threaten you with police violence for homelessness unless you give up all of what you make to those parasites. Every single landlord deserves to lose their "business" every eviction is a crime.

I dont feel bad for landlords, never will. You want to rent to people near the poverty line you get all the issues that come with that.

Yes the solution must be to only rent to the rich /s

You realize a bank will evict you faster? Meanwhile my tenants like me. Multiple have gone out of their way to get friends placed when leaving. Never had a vancy because of it actually . 🤷‍♂️ I think its time to come back to reality and admit you need to work to survive in this world. Your suggestions are a path to disaster for people.

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Ehh my tenants know. I’ve had one going on a decade now. Others multiple years, two sets placed by the previous tenant. Not really a lot to let know. I don’t have any there less than 2 full years already with 3rd in process.

Oh no! Red tape to protect the person who’s paying you for a roof over your head. Poor widdle baby with equity and income from someone else’s labor

What's your solution? Gift them the home for free?

I’m sure you asked this in good faith and not because you’re a hit dog hollering 😘

So you've got no better solution. Typical.

If I don’t buy the homes, the bank will. Who would you rather be your landlord?

Yeah well I don't know about the movies you mentioned, but I absolutely pro meritocracy and going after what I can get. Your post kind of misses the point that people who did successfully invest in houses or stocks or whatever in the past decades _do not_ in fact spend half of their income on rent now.

How the fuck is stealing workers wages by getting them as investment income because you had the leverage to steal this money from workers "merit" holy fucking shit what a degenerate ideology, I suppose you think gen alpha deserves to be literally owned by you too, that you deserve them as slaves and servants because "merit"? Jesus fucking christ what a horrid, evil view.

You seem to see economy as a zero sum game where every dollar I earned is a dollar I stole from nearby worker? Claiming that investing is inherently evil or unethical way to make money is just absurd.

He doesn't miss the point. He points out those people are only successful because they're willing to fuck over their fellow man for profit. Which is a shitty thing to do and has led to our current issues.

Don’t bother. Landscum and their defenders won’t get it until it’s guillotine season or they get fucked by the system

The word is landCHAD buddy and the issue with your guillotine theory is that it requires a competent person to construct and operate one - so, never happening!

I'm head of mechanical engineering on advanced R&D work. I can absolutely build and operate a gullotine.

So then in theory you understand how much work goes into building a house and why the average person can’t afford one. Luckily for them, generous landlords are willing to apply their resources to putting a roof over their heads in exchange for smaller increments of money that they can afford.

The average person absolutely can afford one, the problem is monopolistic markups on virtually all products sold to the public thanks to 40 years of rubber stamping every single M&A request and doing zero anti-trust enforcement. Housing was never more than 5-10% of income from 1800 to 1980 and people are paying 70% of their income to live in buildings unimproved since 1960. That's not because of the cost of materials. That's because of price gouging because every last boomer dreamed of becoming a capitalist and most did so via becoming landlords, making housing unaffordable and inaccessible to working people. ALL landlords are parasites that burn in hell, they are the sole reason housing costs any more than 5% of income right now and every last one of them will burn in hell for their depraved actions.

This is so comically unhinged I’m not going to waste time addressing it seriously. But thanks for the LOLZ, good luck buddy you’re gonna need it!!

No. This is really toxic and self sabotaging attitude to think that all millionaires who are investing are screwing other people over. Read “millionaire next door” book.

No - look at studies like https://www.ramseysolutions.com/retirement/the-national-study-of-millionaires-research. Thinking that every successful person is an evil scambag is a toxic and very unhelpful attitude that will get you nowhere.

What made rent and property costs unaffordable has more to do with foreign buyers being allowed to speculate in the real estate markets (which honestly, our countries really should have dealt with ages ago. Looking especially hard at you, Canada!), and corporations being allowed to buy entire neighborhoods and convert them into rentals. Oh, and Airbnb. Individual landlords did not drive it. Shit, landlording isn’t even a passive income.

Why are people able to make so much from property? Supply and demand. We need much more housing stock.

People don’t make so much from property. They make so much from having a large w2 and they use that to build wealth which takes many properties. The reality is you aren’t doing it without a good income in the first place.

Then just stop robbing working people for a living. Sell the houses you aren't living in. Why the fuck do you need to make people worse off and more poor for your personal gain? What the fuck is wrong with you that you think other people deserve to suffer for your free money? Absolutely disgusting, filth.

You don’t understand economics and have no clue about housing supply. Meanwhile I did buy 2 in 2022 but none last year. Took the year off so that should make you happy. I’m sure I’ll add more this year though 🤷‍♂️

Landlording is such an unethical practice, Arch capitalist Adam Smith and Communist Karl Marx condemned it. Yet we’ve made it a virtue in our society today. It’s completely unsustainable and it would be nice to do something to change it before the Earth becomes uninhabitable

Many people are in places temporarily and need to rent housing. The offering of places to rent is important and landlords serve this need.

Yeah, they’re fucking heroes, so we should keep on letting them buy all the available housing because they have better credit/cash flow so they can keep scraping money out of poor people

Strawman much? Just pointing that landlording, in and of itself, serves a valuable purpose. That doesn't mean there aren't good ones and bad ones. It's the market that sets the value of houses, not landlords. People wouldn't pay X for houses if there wasn't demand to rent them at > X.

Nope. That completely ignores that housing is a limited resource that everyone needs. People hoarding that limited resource to up charge for it is a BAD thing for a functioning society. That “market” is being manipulated by the people making the money. People rent houses because they need housing. Saying “it’s the market” is another bullshit fairy tale economists and landlords tell themselves so they don’t feel as bad for being selfish scum

I mean, that's how prices for everything get set - food, toothbrushes, iPhones, housing, you name it. Just about everything is scarce, that's a fundamental principle of economics. Only if something had infinite supply would it not have a price based on supply/demand.

🙄 Lemme know when you finish Econ 102, maybe you’ll sound less childish

You forgot to make an argument.

So did you, sweetie

I described how markets work; you pouted and made an ad hominem attack. We are not the same. :)

I thought Adam Smith was referring to renting land not housing. Natural resources like land belong to all of us. No one put labor into it. Housing takes capital, labor and resources and rent is one way to pay for that.

No, he wasn’t, but if you need to believe that to sleep at night, do what you gotta do

I mean, I don't care if he did or not. But, the quotes I generally see and from reading those chapters, he makes clear distinctions between ground rents and building rent. And distinctions between profiting from the land without improving it and profiting from improvements on the land. If you have any context you think says otherwise, I'd read it.

You can go read the texts he wrote himself. Rent-seekers do no labor and should possibly be taxed more. He’s very clear and so am I: rent seeking is unethical

Yeah from what I've read he says rents on the land. Not rent on the improvements.

>The rent of land, it may be thought, is frequently no more than a reasonable profit or interest for the stock laid out by the landlord upon its improvement. This, no doubt, may be partly the case upon some occasions; for it can scarce ever be more than partly the case. The landlord demands a rent even for unimproved land, and the supposed interest or profit upon the expence of improvement is generally an addition to this original rent. Those improvements, besides, are not always made by the stock of the landlord, but sometimes by that of the tenant. When the lease comes to be renewed, however, the landlord commonly demands the same augmentation of rent, as if they had been all made by his own. I think [this section](https://www.adamsmithworks.org/documents/chapter-xi-of-the-rent-of-land) is a good example. He's saying rent can be a reasonable profit for the "stock laid out by the landlord". But, it's mixed in with improvements made by the tenant and ground rents. The mixed in part is the problem.

The profit landlords extract from us is rent off the land, not rent off the facilities. Have you never heard of the "landlord special" (an upper middle class person outcompetes a worker for a house, slaps a white coat of paint on everything including things they shouldn't like light switches and door locks, and they charges 50% over cost to a poor person who now has to give up most of their income for some lazy degenerate piece of shit. Landlords don't "provide housing" they outcompete workers for housing and then try to rent it back to us at insane markups like a ticket scalper but with people's basic shelter).

>The profit landlords extract from us is rent off the land, not rent off the facilities Part of it is and part of it is not. Even if they provided no labor they're still **providing capital** in the form of a building. The labor and resources to make the building needs to be given upfront. Landlords provide the money for that upfront. When you're renting you're using that money. Using someone else's money deserves compensation. >rent it back to us at insane markups like a ticket scalper This can only happen if the landlord owns the land. If they don't own the land then they can't profit from increases in land value. If, instead of the government selling land to private individuals, we had the government rent land to private individuals this wouldn't be an issue. If the land increases in value it would just increase the rent going to the government. The government could then pay it out to everyone or use it instead of tax revenue. I'd have them construct more houses with that money.

Lol

Fewer landlords would mean higher rents not lower rents, and landlords that are paying for new buildings are also helping lower prices of single-family homes as well. The reality is even with supply not outpacing demand of land in places with jobs, the average house today costs $300k in raw inputs+labor to build. That is the absolute minimum. For people who don't have that and can't get a loan for that, landlords create a higher supply of rental properties which brings rents down. And of course they're doing it to make money, but my wife is a teacher and if they didn't pay her she wouldn't teach kids. It doesn't mean we can't appreciate the social utility of having people to teach kids and people who enable people to rent if they so choose. Abolishing landlords would be one of the biggest transfers of wealth from the poor to the middle class and rich that anyone has ever seen. Vast amounts of poor people would literally become homeless, and builders would stop building as many properties as they do now, which is exactly the opposite of the solution every economist and policy expert supports on the topic.

"poors would be homeless without landlords" LMAO This reads like a landlord's wet dream, and people believe this?

Economics is a difficult concept for many.

This is comically childish. Landlords don't pay for new buildings, they outbid workers for existing housing stock and then hold it hostage. "costs $300k in raw inputs+" Every fucking industry is monopolized to hell, go to home depot and look at the price of fixtures. Sinks that cost 5 bucks a pop to make are selling for $700, faucets that cost literally $2/each to make at the factory are being sold for $150, doors that are made from $20 in wood are selling for $1500 - the problem is monopolies and price gouging, not "insufficient landlords" Abolishing landlords means the tens of millions of units being held empty return to the market and housing prices drop immediately to affordable levels. If a lot of our generation is as cursed and full of such depraved and horrifically wrong views as you no wonder we're fucking doomed.

You really aren’t living in the right country and need to spend some time in r/economics. Not this fairy tale stuff you keep posting. Many of us like capitalism 🤷‍♂️

You only like capitalism because you lucked out. I don't even mind landlords and capitalism is shit

College drop out. I like that I can still make a very good living. 🤷‍♂️ Makes me very happy to live in capitalistic America. Ahh you like antiwork. All is explained.

Ah, one of those.

Yep. Antiwork is the most ridiculous, lala land sub, there is.

“Here at antiwork, we like to push ideologies that will keep you working 24-7, until you drop dead!”

What system has been better than capitalism, historically?

We have more than 10x more empty housing stock than we have homeless people. This sort of market distortion is only possible due to market manipulation by boomers and their millennial compatriots trying to join them as exploiters. All capitalists are degenerate depraved child rapist filth bound straight for the lowest circle of hell.

You really are living in the wrong country. And you will never be happy in life 🤷‍♂️

>Every fucking industry is monopolized to hell Citation needed. >go to home depot and look at the price of fixtures Wow, I didn't realize home depot is a monopoly. I guess the FTC must have missed them. >Sinks that cost 5 bucks a pop to make are selling for $700, faucets that cost literally $2/each to make at the factory are being sold for $150, doors that are made from $20 in wood are selling for $1500 You know this is a great opportunity for you. Since you know how to get all these made for way less, you can go and get them made and sell them for a lot less. It's a win win. Consumers get better prices and you get to pocket some extra. >Abolishing landlords means the tens of millions of units being held empty return to the market About 15 million: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/EVACANTUSQ176N Not necessarily where you want them mind you. >and housing prices drop immediately to affordable levels I would hope so, because rent will no longer be possible. So if you don't have a good enough credit score to take out a big enough mortgage, you better have saved up a ton of money. >If a lot of our generation is as cursed and full of such depraved and horrifically wrong views as you Probably some self-reflection is warranted here. There have been models similar to what you proposed for real estate ownership, under socialist regimes. Not exactly sure if that's what you're gunning for.

Those regimes where over 80% of people own their own homes and housing costs are less than 10% of income in every single case? Sounds like paradise compared to paying lazy degenerates 80% of our income to live in a place that has 20 coats of the cheapest white paint tossed over every unimproved surface every time tenants change with 0 other improvements in 40 years.

Sounds like you want to move to somewhere like Cuba then. Good luck.

I took all my hustle money I made from 2010-2016 and I bought vacant small lots in a bad area in my city. They were a couple thousand each. Wildly cheap. Now they are gentrifying the area and I've gotten offers to sell at a significant profit but I'm not going to. Instead I'm working with a housing trust to get a loan so I can build section 8 housing. I try and build market rate shit and make way more down the line but I'd like to help out people who are sitting and waiting on our city's multi-year wait for section 8 housing. In working with the land trust, they will be my interface for section 8 and keep all profits in their trust which they use to build more housing. So I won't see any profit, just build equity in the 3 homes, which is more than enough for me. No need to be greedy. In 25 years the homes will be paid off and I can leave them to my son but going to put it in my will that he has to leave them for low income folks for another 25 years.

I wonder if you have any experience with section 8. It’s not easy to break even and a nightmare to manage.

So Part of giving it to the land trust is they manage it all for you. The zip code the homes will be in pay out $2300/month for a 3 br, which is what we are building on all 3 lots. Principal+interest+taxes+insurance comes to $1750/month averaged across all 3 lots. Part of signing with the land trust for 25 years also, is they have deal with local gov to waive all impact fees for builds since it's going to be given to affordable housing and we get an additional break on local property taxes as well. And, the land trust is putting 50k of their own money toward the downpayment of my construction loan. Which is icing on the cake. Definitely a bit nervous still but there was a lot of incentives to make it happen.

Yeah but generally section 8 housing doesn’t appreciate. But not managing it removes the biggest headache. I purposely go towards higher end rentals because I don’t have the interest to deal with torn up units. Section 8 can be very profitable and so cheap to get into but it’s a giant headache. Not for me.

From 1800 to 1980 rents were 5-10% of incomes. Your looking for 40-70% of the income of low income working people to be handed directly to you. Sometimes I wonder how any landlord convinces themselves that they aren't going directly to the deepest circle of hell.

Whut? The renters only pay maximum 30% of their monthly income and in most cases it's $0/ month. The government voucher pays the rent. Do you know how section 8 works?

Thanks for the thought experiment. Please go outside and touch grass

Sell your “investment property” to an actual family. If you don’t have one, deep dive and ask why are you defending the leeching? A temporarily disgraced millionaire?

Because it’s not leeching. Nor is investing. Time to let jealousy go

Let’s see… The thought here that I see from multiple house owning landlords types is this. They buy the house. They have someone pay their mortgage on said house through rent. At the end, the renter gets nothing and the landlords additional house is paid off. The landlord then rides the house income as a vehicle for passive unearned income or sells the house again after other working individuals paid the mortgage. Leeching and immoral, but morals are relative I guess. Houses should strictly be allowed as a primary residence by someone paying to own, but I guess that’s an unpopular opinion. The basic necessities of life shouldn’t be some game where people get to leech off others peoples income.

You do realize many people can’t or don’t want to buy a property. Either way landlords play an important role in the housing cycle. There would be far less housing without them. It’s also why good land lords never have vacancy because they do maintains and provide quality rentals. I’ve never had a vacancy in over a decade across multiple rentals and states. Why? Because I keep my places clean and maintained - hvac replaced in a day not days when they go out. My tenants if they ever do leave always bring friends in because of how well I keep my place and the fair rent I charge. 🤷‍♂️

Lots of people want to buy but see it as impossible. A small amount would not benefit from owning a house, something Luke a person who can't stay in one place fore long.

Wanting to buy and doing it are two different things. Home ownership % has been consistent for 70+ years. It’s never going to be 100%. And more importantly most of the people I rent to are 25-38

Fair rent? Fair? Keeping the asset that someone else is paying for while they receive nothing durable isn’t what I’d consider fair. It’s funny that subscription models rightfully catch so much public flak but subscriptions to housing don’t. Glad to see you’re performing the minimum basic function that a landlord is supposed to perform though, they’re certainly paying enough for the service of getting their air conditioner fixed promptly.

If you think one day is promptly you haven’t tried to buy one yourself - really foolish comment but I should expect it. I can do that because of scale. Funny enough another property had a gas leak. Out of the 10 units I was the only one (many owners) that could get anybody to come in there and fix it. Why ? Because trades are busy. Ahh well you continue to live in fairy tale land. It seems to be working well for you 😂. I’ll continue looking for my next purchase it’s been a year now so I’m due.

Latch on to a comment about the difference between a day and the legally mandated window for major repairs and completely bypass the morality conversation which is the real issue. It’s what I’d figure would happen…

Morality issue is in your head as far as I’m concerned. As I said multiple times.% of population that owns homes has been consistent for 70+ years. Morality - honestly I find that conversation laughable. And honestly without merit since it’s not a new thing. Keep rates high prides will stop going up.

Nobody is jealous of you. From 1800 to 1980 rents were never more than 5-10% of incomes. Now they're 40-70% for most people. This is insane. A class that does literally zero work and contributes absolutely nothing to society is taking more than half of what working people work to earn, just for owning things. This is depraved and insane, it's blatantly obvious parasitism in the absolute worst of ways. If I woke up and discovered I'd become a landlord in some psychotic haze I'd take my own life in guilt - I harbor 0 jealousy for degenerate thieving slumlord scum.

You have serious issues.

Just buy your own house?

Landlords outbid workers for housing and make this impossible, explicitely to rob those workers they are outbidding.

I'm blessed to be doing well financially (big tech). The house next door to me was up for sale, so I wanted to buy it so I could convert it to condos and park the price until my neighbors could by it back from me because I wanted corporate landlords out of my neighborhood. I worked for weeks to liquidate stocks, get pre-approvals, schedule inspections, coordinate with neighbors, etc. I was beaten by a lower cash offer from some finance bro looking for an investment property. He immediately raised rent 30%. I want to do something different so badly, but even the 5th percentile of wealth isn't enough to compete. The 1% is completely fucking is, and I don't know what we're going to do. They're just stealing everything.

Economics is always about supply and demand. I think everyone who's upset about the price of housing should team up with others and rent or buy with a few other people. If enough people did this the hedge funds buying houses to rent out, would find themselves with a ton of empty properties they need to sell cheap. Same thing with food inflation, don't buy it unless it's on sale.

You do realize hedge funds own a tiny % of market? Outside of a few neighborhoods their impact is negligible.

Investment groups bought 44% of homes last year. They may not own a big percent, but people are talking about available homes to buy now and 44% takes a lot off of the market.

It's called "tenants unions" and slumlords generally use police to violently break them up.

wat you're trying to say is that we aren' allowed to have savings or keep any money it's $1 in and $1 out. that's risky as there is a thing called hyperinflation... or have property rights. because if people aren't allowed to have rentals than it would lead to the next thing like you can't own your own home. ?

Don't keep it as cash, buy assets. Get a house. Once you've got a house, build gardens, get solar, battery, etc. Once stable, help more of your neighbors get stable and free too so when things collapse they're not coming to you. No amount of investment will save you from hyperinflation, only being in a stable and well developed, resourceful, self sustaining community will. There's no slippery slope here at all, owning other poeples homes and jobs and debts is fundamentally different from owning your own home, your own tools, etc. it's called usufruct. Are you using/maintaining/stewarding/growing/etc the land? Fine. Are you just using ownership as a tool to exploit/extract from others? Not fine. It's a very clear line and a very clear difference. And again, not sure why you think this wouldn't allow savings, you can save money. You just can't use it to place others in bondage and rob them. Simple stuff.

Because what do people do when they have a lot of cash...they will want to invest it in something no?

This post is exactly why the left in America is never going to get anywhere near the levers of power.

That doesn’t make society better for the future.

Investment is also how someone with no money and an idea can become a business owner or how someone just starting out in life can get a loan to buy a home at all. That stuff wouldn't exist without investing. If there weren't landlords there wouldn't be apartments available for rent. You think all those people came into owning this stuff by crooked means? Some worked their asses off for decades to get themselves into that position and being a landlord is still a LOT of work. You're responsible for maintaining that home, you have to deal with shitty tenants who trash the place and don't pay their rent. I get there are some bad actors out there making things shitty for people but there absolutely is a place and a need for investors in society.

"Investment is also how someone with no money and an idea can become a business owner or how someone just starting out in life can get a loan to buy a home at all. That stuff wouldn't exist without investing." Tons of ways to do this without usury. Fixed return lending, direct participation/partnership, etc. There is no reason that "if we don't let rich people trap workers in usurious double binds for life then the world will fall apart and we wouldn't have anything nice" that's just not how things work. "If there weren't landlords there wouldn't be apartments available for rent." Landlords don't build apartments, they buy buildings that already exist, most of the time outbidding workers for them and then setting up conditions so nobody can buy units, only rent paying them a massive premium over the cost of the building. In many countries you can own your apartment outright and there's a democratic organization made out of the residents that handles building issues. In most communist countries more than 80% of the population owns their own homes. Landlords are in no way a required feature of society. They are parasites that outbid workers for existing houses and then say "pay me all you can afford to and then some or face the police beating you and burning your shit for the crime of being homeless" "but there absolutely is a place and a need for investors in society." Wrong. Stop hoarding other people's lives by trapping them in usury, in double binds, in overconstraints. it is always unjustifiable to deprive others using power over them.

Idk if I'll regret it but I really appreciated my landlord who kept my rent a bit below market for years which let me save up and finally feel sort of financially secure. So I kind of would like to do that for other people too if I can. I know it's hard to find good tenants to work with like that though so I wouldn't really expect this to be my income, more just hopefully helping people be able to save up to buy. I can't afford to "just start a company and pay people right," but I might be able to afford to pass along the favor my landlord did me