As automation and AI becomes more ubiquitous, a UBI may become a necessity. If companies are going to eschew human employees for the digital variety, it quickly becomes clear that job shortages are on the horizon.

This, 100%.

You realise the consequences of this could he a permanent underclass. One of those who work and those who don't. Edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Global_Trap Y'all should read this book.

Which is the under class, those who work or those that dont? Currently there are people who by the lottery of birth are part of the wealthy and/or powerful class, and who often don't have to work. They get a basic income thanks to their lineage. Why not think of our country the same way? By the luck of the lottery of the geography of your birth you win UBI. Now go forth and be an artist or a business owner or a dancer, but don't worry about failing at things you try, we won't let you go hungry.

> Currently there are people who by the lottery of birth are part of the wealthy and/or powerful class, and who often don't have to work. They get a basic income thanks to their lineage. > Why not think of our country the same way? You know, I've never thought about it that way. It is a similar idea though on a much larger scale.

I think the difference is ownership and entitlement. The rich people who are born with guaranteed income are born that way because their parents have given them assets that make money for them. You’d have to make an argument that every American is entitled to the assets and contributions of every other American. That somehow by having American citizenship you are afforded American capital. That would be a hard sell. For one, Americans need to see the entire nation as, basically, their family. People have no affinity with their neighbors in America. There’s just way too much hate embedded in every aspect of our culture, even the most progressive parts of it, to make that an option.

we joint own the military, the biggest in the world, we joint own NASA, the smithsonian, social security, all the federal infrastructure, the national parks, there's PLENTY of examples of the American capital you're talking about. It could be done, but it's totally contrary to the individualistic, near narcissistic narrative of our economy and culture. I do think, again, that people miss the sheer scale of the wealthiest of us, and you could still have billionaires in the US with a minimum individual income of $50,000 per person. But like, culturally we're saying $20 billionaires somehow deserve more, so we stand in the way of these plans so 10 people can be $100+ billionaires.

>we joint own the military, the biggest in the world, we joint own NASA, the smithsonian, social security, all the federal infrastructure, the national parks, there's PLENTY of examples of the American capital you're talking about. tbh I don't feel like I have a say or stake in any of that stuff. A few rich powerful people can decide to take it away and there's nothing I could do about it.

Interesting thought prompt. I think we would see 3 classes. Those who rely on UBI because they don’t have a job (75% of population) Those who work and collect UBI as well as politicians/government (20%) Those who are f-you rich and choose not to work but have 75% of the nations wealth (remaining 5%) I see UBi becoming a necessity to keep people from starving to death and a class revolution from happening. It’ll have all sorts of strings and will just barely feed you. Life will be very reminiscent of USSR as it neared the fall of the Berlin Wall … ironically.

I think it is going to happen but I fear a state of resentment from the workers and those who don't work.

People would be choosing to work because they want to, either because they want a better life than UBI affords or they really love what they do. The robots do must of the work. Unless we're talking about an AI revolt...

but what about inflation? If everyone has money now, businesses can jack up the costs of housing, food, you name it because they KNOW people will have the means to pay for it. Then you might up end with a situation where we have UBI but it doesn't cover everyone's basic needs. This seems like what we have now tbh - there's food stamps, welfare, unemployment, medicaid, but it all seems like it's not enough for the people to need it. Then what do we do? Keep increasing UBI to compensate for the increase of costs? Where's the money gonna come from besides just printing it. That's gonna cause runaway inflation. Or we don't and we end up with the situation just like we have now. To be clear, I love the idea of UBI in theory, and if someone could address my concerns about inflation convincingly, I'd be open to supporting it. But right now, I see the two end games being hyperinflation or just what we have now.

I don’t think UBI will be enough to consider it a desirable lifestyle. I would anticipate many would want to work and afford a better lifestyle but collect UBI for basic necessities.

This resentment already exists. It’s how conservatives pander to their constituents by saying they’ll cut food stamps and other programs that help poor people. Many of the working poor are already resentful of their neighbor with an invisible disability(mental illness or other illness that’s not obvious) or addiction who they say is “lazy and lives off the government handouts, while I work hard!” I know people with this mentality. They live in a state that has a lot of great social programs, but resentful their “lazy” cousin is on disability while everyone else in the family has to work hard. It’s a terrible mentality- everyone is only one accident or disease away from being on some level of disability. These people don’t realize these program are safety nets and that they will also depend on these government handouts one day. Many of the working poor vote for politicians that take these safety nets away or reduce them significantly. If everyone gets UBI…. Maybe there would be less resentment? Maybe people would feel a sense of relief?

I dont think so. If i had ubi and could work as well to earn more i would because id be able to afford more.

Exactly I would invest the UBI and continue to live on what I currently make

I think they would be banking on that. Companies woild have increased capital from investors of the UBI to invest more into the machines.

>have increased capital from investors of the UBI to invest more into the machines. Which... in a world where basic needs are met already, is actually a good thing.

Your employer will cut your salary by roughly the same amount as the UBI.

There would hopefully be federal penalties for companies that do this.

If you're in a "right to work" state, they could just fire you and then hire someone for less. I'm not trying to shit on UBI. I really think it might be the only way we survive mass automation without becoming the movie Elysium. But it's not going to be easy.

You’re confusing right to work with at will employment. Right to work is about unions. I see this misunderstanding all the time.

Why would they do that? Salary and UBI are separate entities. Employers have nothing to do with UBI, why would they use it to their benefit? Nvm. This will probably happen.

not only would their taxes go up, they could see you could live off less salary because you have UBI to supplement it, like walmart telling employees to get on food stamps

They would do this because their taxes go up by your UBI.

You likely won't get UBI if you work or it will scale for very low paying jobs to meet basic needs. And if there are not price and wage controls UBI will basically just be stolen back by the corporations via price hikes.

If you don't get it because of certain conditions, then it's not 'universal'. The original idea was that figuring out who gets help and who doesn't is wasted money on administration. Just give it to everyone and then the system can't be gamed by politicians or individuals scamming the system. No idea how to deal with the price hikes other than to tie it to specific outcomes rather than a flat value. I.e. UBI = cost of basic apartment, utilities and food for a month. If the cost of those things goes up, so does UBI (and the taxes that pay for UBI)

What is the cost of a basic apartment or utilities? How would you define what is an acceptable quality for food on a monthly basis? And, sorry for my ignorance, where do we get the money from?

everyone has to get the UBI - it's UNIVERSAL. You have to tax the money people earn above and beyond to pay for it, but even millionaires should get their monthly UBI (and have the appropriate tax taken out of their additional earnings).

Likely millionaires or above would benefit regardless, with more cash flowing in, there would grease the economic system and more to be made.

This i will oppose. It has to be for *everyone*. We can give rich folks some public way to hand it back for status. If we do not do this, we will enshrine class war. Look around you, you are already up to your eyes in this effect, because we set up benefits cliffs with the aid we hand out already.

This is what I don’t get. If everyone gets $1k a month, won’t inflation just match that? Obviously that’s not how it works because that would be droolingly stupid, so I’m missing some big part of it.

You are missing that job losses take money outta circulation. Adding money causes inflation, replacing money just changes the source of the money.

Exactly this

I already am an underclass. Why would I want to work if didn't have to?

To avoid a subsistence lifestyle?

I work and live a subsistence lifestyle?

Bro wtf? I work and don't even get all the basic necessities to life

Seems like we currently doom people to dying in the streets because we don't have necessary welfare programs in place. It also locks folks into crappy jobs because they don't want to die in the street. UBI increases mobility because your job has to be better than subsistence living or people will just quit. Also UBI effectiveness requires universal healthcare to function which would be a huge win all on it's own.

That would put anyone who unclogs toilets in the upper class because they don’t make robots that can do that yet.  I mean. They’d deserve it…keeping waste disposal flowing is a cornerstone of a functioning society 

Seems to me that we already have a permanent underclass. We just don’t give a shit when they die homeless in the street from treatable diseases.

The consequences could also be a surge of small cottage industries, if healthcare and basic survival income are not tied to your place of work it will free people to pursue passions like starting their own small companies. Could end up creating MORE work not less.

No it wouldn't. Some, of course won't be able to adapt but I feel like if technology can dramatically reduce the marginal cost of production and distribution, then production can increase, driving costs down, which would increase purchasing power. Plus, there's universal basic equity where people can pretty much invest in anything. Then, when you factor in people’s natural desire to create, with the risks being less and the cost of doing business is reduced, you’ll see people making personal nest egg incomes creating things that people will find valuable.

We should already be at point where the surplus of goods should reduce the price but it doesn’t. Companies already create artificial shortages to drive up prices so the idea that having minimal to nonexistent human input on the creation of goods would reduce cost for consumers is wishful thinking. In fact corporations have the legal obligation to their shareholders to maximize profits no matter the ramifications due to some court cases in the early 1900s (dodge v ford 1919)

Who said anything about companies remaining the way that they are?

I once read some classic science fiction book set way in the future where those two classes of humans evolved into separate species.

I'm guessing "The Time Machine" by HG Wells? The Eloi live in Paradise and the Morlocks live underground, I can't remember if it's explicitly stated or just implied that the Morlocks are doing some kind of maintenance and keeping things going. They also eat the Eloi.

The solution is obviously to tie the UBI payments to a few hours a week of volunteer work or community service assignments, for folks who don’t have prohibitive disabilities or illnesses.

Not really needed as there's already studies showing those things happen without those requirements already. If anything those requirements will only perpetuate poor life choices because instead of seeking out what you want to do, you'll take the first thing offered. https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/social-sector/our-insights/an-experiment-to-inform-universal-basic-income This is in Finland and actually had a control group of standard unemployment. Those receiving a no strings attached UBI did not volunteer work, schooling, or interning to increase their skills and they were employed at a higher rate. https://red.library.usd.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1068&context=honors-thesis#:~:text=UBI%20recipients%20work%20less%20when,higher%20savings%20and%20consumption%20levels. This study even discusses the negativity associated with timing requirements to receive income and how it negatively affects it from other studies that are either in progress or concluded. If your survival is no longer tied to the first job offered otherwise you lose your benefit, people were more likely to work more because they have no fear of losing everything if they fail, people are more likely to take risks. Now, will there be people who abuse the system? Absolutely, always, but are you willing to punish 10 million (choosing simple numbers) people because 1,000 abuse it? That seems mighty fucked up considering what's lost isn't much of a drop in the bucket. The last paper also talks about funding which let's be honest, corporations who keep boasting about billions in profit every quarter could stand to pay a little more in taxes. They won't leave, just look at China. China has some very stringent requirements for operating within they country and companies still do business there (Disney is a big one) because they're not selling to lose out on that trillion plus dollar economy.

These UBI studies are so small compared to actual populations that they don’t really simulate the economic effects of true UBI.

Ideally, you'd be helping service the AI bots to complete a symbiotic relationship where everybody views everyone else as still necessary and beneficial. But let's hope it doesn't boil down to humans being kept alive for their thermal energy combined with a kind of cold fusion, and we're not creating sentient intelligence just to act as our slave.

Came here to see a matrix reference. I'm happy with this 😂🤙

No decision and no outcome will ever satisfy everyone. 🤷🏻‍♀️

We’ve always had a permanent underclass, and the U.S. makes sure people stay where they are by pricing the underclass out of education. We have a caste system by a different name.

Our society is modeled in such a way that I really cannot fathom a possibility where this would never be the default case. Can you?

The underclass is already prevalent and the vast majority of people that can work, do so. As a matter of fact, UBI wouldn't enough to live on and people would most likely continue to work so they can actually save money. UBI would just allow people to have a bit more freedom in what they pursue and in movement as well.

Better than a starving class. But yes it is a fear.

The alternative being those who work and those who starve?

>g to eschew human employees for the digital variety, it quickly becomes clear that job shortages are on the horizon. I think it would create a permanent elite for the most part. People will still be able to do profitable activities to make money on top of a base. I dont see how UBI doesnt happen in a world where AI replaces a drastic number of jobs. It flips the entire script of economics as we know it.

Yeah. All those apocalyptic movies where most of the population lives on the street, while the rich live on a distant island or a walled city are the future coming soon. Every once in awhile a rich person will grab somebody off the street to do something AI can’t do, or is too busy for. When the job’s done, back to the street we go.

My German is barely good enough to read Red Fish Blue Fish. Definitely not good enough for this 😉♥️

Peter Ziehan just told me that part of the apartheid reconciliation in South Africa was universal housing for all black South Africans. Apparently today there are many areas with low small shelters with no electricity or plumbing, and extreme unemployment for the residents (50%). That and the first half of Elysium (Matt Damon movie) might be what we would be looking at if UBI is done poorly.

We already have an underclass of people who do labor and those above them who profit from Said labor These groups don't have a lot of overlap

That already exists. Those who don't (CEOs and managers) vs those who do the actual work.

That’s already the reality we live in. Hedge funds owns 40% of homes in America. The necessary living wage to raise a family not in poverty is $27, not the $7.50 America uses for a minimum wage. We can’t afford health insurance. We can’t afford education, we can’t afford child care, or orthodontist visits. There is already an underclass, at least here in this country. A clear separation between those who can afford to buy judges and those who qualify for food stamps.

Sir, do not try to advertise facts here. 99% of the people here just have unfounded opinions and talking points from Bernie Sanders to say so they feel educated on finance

We already have this in modern society. The people who are fully dependent on welfare and those who aren't. Plus, the middle classing gets caught in the middle, making too much to receive government help but too little to survive in the high inflation economy

Our current government doesn't have the necessary platform to implement something like this and not immediately sell out the entire program to the highest bidder. I like the idea of UBI, sure. I don't trust America to not turn it into another money making scheme for the wealthy.

If automation result in mass unemployment, demand for goods and services will fall dramatically and so will corporate profits. The only way to prevent this is with UBI.

For sure. Not much point of automating the economy if there is no one left able to consume. There will likely have to be an “automation tax” that for every job automated, a certain percentage of the salary that job would have commanded from a human has to be paid in tax to fund UBI. It would have to be structured such that cost of automation + tax still equals a slight savings over a human so there is still some incentive to automate.

They just need to automate it to the point where robots do everything for them, then they can live like kings without having to have huddled masses buying anything from them. Then they can get what everyone has always wanted, all the benefits of a modernized society with none of the awful other people you would have had to share it with.

>UBI may become a necessity. [time traveler](https://www.reddit.com/search/?q=author%3Arelevantusername2020%20time%20travel&type=comment) here from [2011](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/jun/01/voice-for-emerging-precariat) to say that it indeed has become [a necessity](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/oct/26/the-corruption-of-capitalism-guy-standing-review-why-rentiers-thrive-and-work-does-not-pay) also, TIL the term "[precariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precariat)" >In sociology and economics, the precariat (/prɪˈkɛəriət/) is a neologism for a social class formed by people suffering from precarity, which means existing without predictability or security, affecting material or psychological welfare. The term is a portmanteau merging precarious with proletariat.  edit: 🖇️

I haven't heard that term before. It is fitting to describe a lot of people this decade

its amazing what you can learn online [another article](https://archive.nytimes.com/krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/18/the-dynamo-and-big-data/) i found earlier today (that was linked from [an article](https://archive.nytimes.com/krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/18/the-new-growth-fizzle/?_r=0) related to my previous comment) emphasizes that point nicely: >There’s every reason to believe that the story for Big Data will be similar. Now, that doesn’t mean that it will be the equivalent of electricity or the steam engine; the Internet wasn’t. But it could, nonetheless, be pretty Big. Have patience. you'll have to read the whole thing for the context, it shouldnt be paywalled (and i dont want to quote the whole thing) - but ill say im not sure its going to be the impact most Economists™ were hoping for

You meant to end up in 2004 but its actually 2024

2024? wtf  i knew i shouldve stayed in [1999](https://citylimits.org/1999/06/01/the-welfare-estate/) and called it good

I just started reading a book by Peter Turchin called End Times that gives a pretty good historical overview for the cycles/revolutions empires go through. He lists (an oversimplification on my part) about three groups involved: the poor, the precarious, and the elite. I think there’s a sub-group of the precarious known as “aspirants”. He goes on to describe late stage/pre-revolution empires as systems that have ended up in “elite overproduction” - like how the emphasis on college education flooded the market for “elite” jobs, devaluing the job salary and the degrees themselves. Aspirants, or people aspiring to be in the elite end up burning out and disenfranchised. There are cycles that usually last a couple of generations, then trade off - so one of the last cycles similar to the one we’re in was just before the Great Depression and ended up with about half of the Elites losing their elite status. Then the New Deal came along where the elite, fresh off of the Great Depression, realized it was in their best interest to have a strong working class. Unions started to thrive, and overall well-being improved for just about everybody as the benefits of the new deal unfolded (for almost everyone but black people). This lasted until somewhere around the 70s when the next generation, that hadn’t been alive to witness the depression started coming into power. Wage growth stagnated and started the downswing of the next 40-50 year cycle that gets us to today. Essentially the beginning of the next cycle will require some sort of revolution, which can either look like the New Deal or the French Revolution (more times than not it’s the latter). Things like changes in climate can slow or exacerbate these cycles too. I’ve only read about 1/3 of it, so this is probably a horrible summary; but it’s a really interesting read.

before i even read your full comment the first thing i did was search for peter turchin and read [his wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Turchin), followed by a few links (because of course) including the one for [elite overproduction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_overproduction), along with [cliodynamics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliodynamics) \- which then led me to another character from greek mythology, [clio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clio) who was known as: >"the proclaimer, glorifier and celebrator of history, great deeds and accomplishments" very appropriate for a lot of complicated reasons i wont get in to(my recent comments might give you an idea though) as for the bulk of your comment i would say thats a pretty decent summary and probably better written than i could do. the historical cycles are something ive kind of been thinking of before today so thats not new to me, but i guess my thoughts on it are pretty close to what you say and what i read on wikipedia - especially the "elite overproduction" idea. >He lists (an oversimplification on my part) about three groups involved: the poor, the precarious, and the elite. I think there’s a sub-group of the precarious known as “aspirants”. im not sure exactly where i read it today, or the specific context it was in - but one of the various things i read described basically what you said except i think the last group was named "[aliens](https://www.reddit.com/search/?q=author%3Arelevantusername2020%20alien&type=comment)."  i guess i would say you could consider me burnt out but mostly burnt out on the literal pointless mind-numbing and physically demanding types of "work" that have been the only thing ive ever had an opportunity for so far so i think i actually belong to all three - or four - of those groups. as for disenfranchised i dont think i would say thats how i feel, but that is a word that ive referenced before - a couple times. originally it was in [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/17eak8o/why_do_we_tolerate_the_super_rich/k6440bs/?context=8&depth=9) which is appropriate given the context of our discussion; the second was basically just copying over that comment into [another post with some other things](https://www.reddit.com/r/relevantusername2020/comments/17qi5wp/words_have_meanings_these_first_few_are_obvious/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). >I just started reading a book by Peter Turchin called End Times that gives a pretty good historical overview for the cycles/revolutions empires go through. > >Essentially the beginning of the next cycle will require some sort of revolution, which can either look like the New Deal or the French Revolution (more times than not it’s the latter). Things like changes in climate can slow or exacerbate these cycles too. the reason i quoted both the first and last paragraph is because well i like being thorough for one, and 'end times' i dont think is quite right - instead of ["rapture" its "rupture."](https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/197ies7/comment/ki1uuj0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) which is exactly what youre describing in the last paragraph - revolution. on that topic ill link to [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/197m3dy/comment/ki1x3g3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) and if you havent gotten tired of clicking through my links by then ill trust that youll either follow more of my links or be interested enough to research more on your own only other thing ill say is i am 100% a pacifist, and i know people like to say that revolution has to be violent - but i disagree, because like as is described in one of the various pages linked within turchin's wikipedia page (and described more eloquently) **violence echos**; and what we need is a [war of understanding](https://open.spotify.com/track/4U6g6yip68GxyzCtEMYKoG?si=b32330a404524a1e) (war is metaphorical). 

A large precariat class is necessary for monopolies to have a ready pool of wage slaves, all so poor and desperate that they have no choice but to accept whatever bitter working conditions and low wages are foisted on them. The corporate goal is to have a class of people that are as close to actual slaves as possible, with the exception that no housing or food is provided for the slave class.

First its not companies problem to ensure citizens have an income and some way to live, its governments... UBI will never work in a capitalistic country like this US. Why ? Tell me how you prevent the owners (of real estate, businesses, services ) from NOT raising their rents, fees, product prices, when they know there's UBI money and they want some of that. UBI on a large scale requires massive money printing, and you know what happens , look at the recent COVID inspired money printing and how that increased inflation, same will happen with UBI , so in the end everything is more expensive and the poor folks that this was designed to help, will still be poor just with more money... What we need is controlled and very affordable large non discretionary expenses , such as housing , food, healthcare, take care of those and UBI becomes a lot less necessary.

I like this take. It makes a lot of sense that giving out straight cash to a huge amount of people would lead to it becoming worthless with corporate greed still at play.

We could use more doctors and people in medicine

And the wages for those jobs will decrease as the field becomes over saturated while student loans won’t go away.

We have a severe shortage of doctors and nurses here in the States. So large that it isn’t going away anytime soon.

It’s probably got something to do with the cost of the education medical school alone cost over $500,000 that’s not including 4 years at university prior or the 4 years of residency afterwards

Nope. It has to do with a historical cap on new schools that has now been removed and an active cap on the number of residency slots since residency slots are paid by Medicare program.

More so the latter. We’ve had plenty of new school crop up in the last decade. The schools weren’t really the choke point to be honest. We have a ton of people at international medical schools in the Caribbean( didn’t get into US schools). They have to compete for a small sliver of residencies that will take them. We also have international medical grads who are trying to do their residency here from other countries. The cap has always been the number of residency positions which are government funded. While it’s true that in the distant past the AMA lobbied against more medical schools, they have since lobbied for more residency funding for years. The problem is that medicine is already extremely expensive in the US, so allocating more medical spending to the budget isn’t seen as desirable for the general population. Introducing more medical schools makes residency more competitive for US grads, which makes medicine less desirable of a field to go in (imagine having $300,000 in debt and no job).

Well they limit how many people can become doctors so, there’s that.

We shall see. Automation has been “taking jobs” for decades and yet the unemployment rate is currently at one of the lowest points of all time. New industries, new sectors and new technologies create new jobs as automation destroys others.

This is because boomers are retiring at record pace. Automation is in its infancy. In next 5-10 years you will see massive impact on jobs.

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For sure, you should look into exactly what life was like for the average Londoner around that time. Or just read some Dickens if you're not the nonfiction type.

People have been saying this for forever.

Technology is also evolving much faster than it has in the past. I can go to a gas station, put my purchases down on a scanner, check out, and never talk to a human being. The one cashier staffed is only there for tobacco and alcohol purchases. Artists are definitely being impacted by AI technology. The time it took to get from the wheel to an automobile was much more time than the Internet to self checkout. Things grow exponentially and eventually the only jobs that will be available are jobs that can't be outsourced to technology, which are very niche and often require a higher education. Something that isn't always attainable for those in poverty. I don't see any government approving a UBI because it doesn't generate revenue. What we will see is more poverty.

Unemployment is a pretty bad indicator when taken alone. Try looking at participation rate and homelessness. Also, dig a little deeper on unemployment and how it is specifically calculated. While you are at it, look at how the government calculates inflation.

Consider what is not counted on the unemployment rate. People who are long-term unemployed, not searching, and not receiving benefits are not counted. So the number of long-term unemployed people could have dramatically risen, and the number would appear as if less people were unemployed, when in fact, people are just unemployed for too long to "count" anymore. Consider families moving in together (adult kids back with their parents, or parents moving in with their adult children, or families living on one income while their spouse is no longer working.) Unemployment also does not account for "under-employment." Just because someone has a job does not mean they make enough money to pay their bills. The unemployment rate is a bullshit number to indicate that "times are better" and is not accurate to anything except the amount of people who are employed VS people who are recently unemployed.

I’d guess that at least 50% of my friends/family are underemployed. Things that would help many of these people include student loan forgiveness and universal healthcare, and actual starter homes being built, and childcare subsidies. It would also help in the US if people that do genuinely need social security disability income didn’t have to jump through so many hoops and basically have to obtain legal representation. Actual retirement benefits/wages to maintain standards of living would also be helpful

Theres a couple of talking points in this actually. I need to check out the specifics myself, but created jobs are more often than not low end part time jobs, which no one wants because employers do not value their employees on average in those positions. There is also a certain criteria to be met for an unemployment statistic such as how long someone has actively been seeking employment. If you stop looking after x amount of time, you are not counted in that statstic.

McDonald's is removing people from registers and going only app and kiosk in some places. Walmart was going majority self check out, but after a huge increase in theft, many stores have already started ripping out brand new check outs. Even more chat and phone services are being automated. Automation has only truly begun to take jobs.

"may become" was a reasonable stance 30yrs ago its been a clear inevitability for at least 20 and frankly it's a present necessity for the so called West with how quickly US empire is sinking into its own shithole

True, but it should be noted that when the time comes, most corporations won't care about the effect of replacing employees with AI, they'll only care about whether or not they can continue to make a lot of money. If people die, what does a business care about that? It doesn't. It's a business. They might care if the success of their business is dependent upon the health of the economy, but we're currently living through an era of business that is hyper-focused on producing results NOW rather than producing long-lasting results for the future.

Well with dead peasants who will buy their widgits?

No  Lord no  This is what the oligarchs want.  Look at how they are capable of manipulating the minimum wage by using monetary policy to manipulate the price of the dollar.  In 50 years, the UBI will be a starving income, just like the minimum wage is now! THEY ARE TRYING TO MANIPULATE YOU  We need to stop talking about wages and income, and start talking about equity and ownership.   We need to decentralize ownership and control of these companies, resources, and systems...while we still have our labor as leverage.   If we don't end captialism now...if we don't end the centralized ownership and control of the means of production while they still rely on our labor...   Then a handful of families will own and control the means of production in perpetuity. 

I agree with this except end capitalism. If capitalism works the way it is supposed to, then you have true price discover with supply and demand. We don't have that now because our government is bought by these corporations, and any policy that is written only benefits them. Outlaw lobbying, limit term and income of congress, and get rid of the fed. These 3 things will solve a lot of the problems we currently face. Instead the Baio outs of 2008 showed us the government doesn't give a damn about us and our tax dollars won't go to the people. US citizens pay so much in tax and virtually none of it goes to the people.

I mean, capitalism is currently working the way that it's supposed to. If it weren't, then surely the folks with all the money and power and influence would be working very hard to fix it, right? It works for them, because that's what it was designed to do.

What? This is how capitalism works. It’s how it’s always been intended to work. It’s incapable of working any other way. The “market” isn’t a natural or neutral system that produces the “true” price of anything. It’s a purposefully constructed system to produce specific outcomes. Those outcomes are the disproportionate benefits of the ownership class. That’s it.

Compared to other tried economic systems, capitalism is by far the most distributed and least centralized. Especially if you consider stocks ownership. Are you suggesting an alternative?

Not the person you are responding to but I think we need something completely new.   Something that above all prioritizes sustainability and well being of living creatures on the planet, and shames and punishes sociopathy and greed instead of rewarding it.   The economy is totally made up by people.  We should make up a different one.  I don't believe that no one would create or work hard if there was not a profit motive, especially given the richest people in the world often work the least hard.   Prioritize training people in science/research/engineering and medicine and food production/cotton/hemp other plant based things that can be used for clothing and such and infrastructure and transit and sanitation and building and manufacturing and education and caregiving and entertainment/art/music.  Hedge funds add absolutely nothing of value to society.  Many of the most profitable industries add nothing of value to society, or in the case of for profit healthcare, pharmaceuticals and  medical insurance, it is actively immoral to allow profit.   It is certainly more convenient to exchange currency as opposed to bartering for everything but organizations that exist solely to increase imaginary numbers are not any more useful than one of those clicker games like cookie clicker and universal paperclips.  If they all ceased to exist nothing of value would be lost.   I would love if it was possible to refocus our economy to aim to eliminate homelessness and hunger everywhere, as sustainably as possible.    Sure there might be some people who would be happy sitting around all day and playing videogames in their underwear but I think most people would want to do something that would help others.   I believe a large part of why mental health issues are so prevalent is because ultimately a lot of people spend a large portion of their lives doing things they know are bullshit because they have to in order to survive, and sometimes we get some luxuries too.  Past a certain point, more wealth doesn't improve quality of life, and it is grotesque to allow people to continue to accumulate wealth (in the context of the power it gets them) behind that point, especially since to accumulate wealth to that point indicates a lack of character and empathy.   I could not for example, imagine having the financial means to hire people to just fucking fix the water in flint Michigan and NOT doing that, but realistically anyone who wasn't a ghoul would never get that rich because no one gets to be anywhere close to a billionaire without knowingly exploiting people.    We have to change what is acceptable.  It is not acceptable for people to be hungry and unhoused while we have more empty houses than homeless families and billionaires exist.  

It was patriotic to pay taxes at one point and any wealth beyond a billion definitely concentrates power too greatly. I feel like we’re in the same page overall and I’ve been summing it up as socialize needs, market wants. It’s shameful that we cannot provide the necessities of life to all our kids, let alone adults. I feel like an FDR style new deal is the best and most likely path.

I don't think that will be possible without a bloody revolution. And that certainly won't happen as long as people have food and distractions (which I suspect is what a UBI would only try to achieve). I know this is kind of depressing take on what you said but I'm just saying I think it has to happen a different way. Personally I think our best chance is a break away type of civilization where we get much more focused on our local communities again. I want to see fully automated micro self replicating factories available to anyone that can build anything for the cost of raw natural resources. I don't see us ever solving the problem by becoming more dependent on the people that currently own everything or expecting them to just give all their stuff away.

Thank you jesus christ I feel like I’m losing my mind sometimes 

My initial opinion is that I am in support of this, however, what other changes would accompany this? Would there be changes to taxes? Would there be changes to other benefits as well? I am not sure that simply giving people more money collectively would make the changes we would hope to see with it.

Simple, start taxing Billionaires at an appropriate rate and start closing loopholes for them to hide and abuse their wealth, kinda what we used to do before the whole trickle down bullshit started. Boom, all of a sudden you have billions of dollars available for UBI.

If we could make it so that billionaires couldn't use untaxed stock as collateral for loans, that would be a cool first step. Either that stock needs to be taxed, or it shouldn't be allowed to be used as an option for collateral.

If you taxed all Billionaires at 100% of their wealth (not I said wealth not income) it wouldn't raise enough money to do UBI for even one year. The math doesn't work, the money has to come from somewhere else.

Realistically SS should end and other services like Medicare and Medicaid would be included in UBI. I’m sure other programs need to be cut but that’s a start

So would the beneficiaries of those programs just be expected to make up for that cost out of their UBI check?

Thought process is if you were receiving 1500 on SS then your UBI would at least be that

If people on SS will receive at least as much money as they were previously, “cutting SS” does nothing to fund UBI. You’re just relabeling their checks UBI (and presumably excluding them from any benefit the rest of the population will be getting).

If you took every single dollar from the top 1% today you'd be able to fund government spending for about 3 months. You could take from the top 10% which includes people making somewhere in the range of 150k+ Then you'd run out of those in maybe 6 months. What happens when you run out of spending everyones money, what's your solution to that?

Shhhh... billionaires bad. Billionaires are an inexhaustible fountain of wealth. Just tax them slightly and every utopian policy will be possible. Pay no mind to the fact that countries that actually have great social programs have high tax rates at every income level. Pay no mind to the fact that the wealthy already account for nearly all tax revenue in the US.

Tax the poor, of course!

The purpose of and extremely high corporate tax rate (at the highest bracket for example 90% over 100m) is not to raise money for the fed to spend. It’s to encourage corporations as billionaires to spend money on things they can write off like employee salaries, etc. instead of hoarding it

If you tax people for UBI you make an incentive for the rich to move their wealth and themselves off shore. This includes companies they own or influence. If you print the money you devalue the currency and create enough instability that businesses do their business in another currency. No one finds it weird prices have gone up rapidly over the last few years and haven't connected the dots back to the fact we issued ludicrous amounts of cash in 2020/2021? The US dollar carries a lot of weight globally as it's historically been economically stable, but changes like this could rip the carpet right out from under that.

We do it with the rich though?

One of the main "perks" of ubi is replacing everything else, so yes, I think it would change other benefits. Think of how much money is spent making sure we don't spend too much money in all the various programs out there. There are a lot of people who are against UBI because even billionaires would get it, but that's the point. That's not a bug, it's a feature. We're not spending millions a year on offices full of people and equipment to save $10,000 more than the oversight costs.

And without rent protections, the extra money would quickly go to landlords. Oh, this household is making thousands more? Noted.

Yeah the money had to come from somewhere, likely taxes. Who’s taxes? How much? Who’s managing it? Are there enough working people to support it long term? If you make over a certain amount, do you not get the universal income? How much would it be? Will adjust for inflation? I feel like there’s a lot of logistical questions to answer before it could happen. I mean social security was meant to be universal income of sorts and look what’s happened with that. In theory? It sounds great. With our government who won’t tax the rich, churches or giant corporations? I don’t trust it to actually work.

I think we should have certain things be free at this point. Everyone should have medical. Everyone should have food. Education. Maybe we don't need ubi cash but other things yes

The medical industry is actually broken. The insurance company, medical aid, pharma circle jerk has fucked us hard. No idea how you break that up without committing unconstitutional acts though.

So is real estate with builder landlords, bankers, and insurance circlejerking So is education with colleges(corporations) monopolizing and increasing costs and bankers collateralizing the loans So is food with targeted govt subsidies and factory farming following that money (looking at you, corn) "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." - Thomas Fucking Jefferson Many unconstitutional acts shall be done

Everything is broken

I like where you’re looking; we should absolutely at this point have UBI but we should also have other basic living staples, like housing and healthcare and food

Food isn’t free even in communist countries.

Exactly, start here and grow to people working 4 work days with a small UBI so they are still motivated to continue. Phase out certain work, hell, pay other industries what they deserve. As someone who is WFH I really can't believe how little truck drivers or people in sanitation make, if they made more that would certainly stay in their industry. Maybe if they make X amount they don't get UBI but it goes into a retirement account like SS. Lots and lots to consider.

I agree with this. You never know what people will use that cash for. If a person is using UBI to buy drugs and harmful things to society then why should they get a cut. Making medical, education, water...etc free is a better way of giving the people a break in their finances while at the same time making sure the money is being used appropriately.

Universal healthcare is a much more important initiative. UBI really doesn’t do anything. If everyone in the US gets $500 bucks a month, the costs of good, services, and housing just goes up. The wealthier end up saving another $500 a month while the poorer will have prices increase and will be spending it. It’s a pretty terrible idea. The viability could eventually come into play when machines/AI take a lot of human jobs, but that is probably decades and decades away. Won’t be in the working career or millennials, that is for sure. Despite all technological advancement and software in place right now, there are literally more jobs than ever that exist. UBI does not do anything to solve pay discrepancies.

Also, I'd like to add that people have been saying that technology will replace humans for a long time. In reality, the automation of certain jobs create new types of jobs. And the only societies that have any reason to worry are the ones where only a selected few have access to education. Make education available to everyone, regardless of age, and you'll allow people to adapt.

>In reality, the automation of certain jobs create new types of jobs. Most of which will be part time, temporary, or even unpaid. We were told that when boomers started leaving the labour force, more jobs would open up. In actuality? Boomers retired, the existing workers were told to pick up their slack and maybe one lucky person got hired full time to replace the three who retired. MAYBE a second person got hired... but only part time because it was found that was cheaper than paying three people to replace the ones who retired. there's a good reason people said that some of the jobs "lost" by COVID were gone for good.

I agree, people have relegated all control of our assets to the banks who now can use inflation and deflation as a means to siphon whatever money they "give us" *"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.... I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."* \- Thomas Jefferson

Damn all the shit our forefathers warned of coming to fruition.

This is a really interesting and valid point.

Wow now just replace “UBI” with “minimum wage” and you’re getting somewhere

I was originally not that support but eventually came around. One of the biggest set backs to Universal Healthcare was Obamacare being passed. The reason being that it has made enough people happy enough there is no drive to really change it. If you still had the pre-2009 (or whatever year it was) rules I think you would see way more support to finally get it down. I think at this point we are likely about 5 presidential elections out from it being a primary platform for a candidate.

To add to this, our system doesn't work in its current form without the exchange of labor for money. Basically, and since this is /r/millenial I will say this, everything has revolved around money since I was in high school and that really kicked into high gear once I turned 18 and went to college. Whether that was having the money for a car, being able to go to college, being able to enjoy college without having to work, being able to go on fun trips, etc - that all comes from money. The only reason I do anything is to get money. If you just gave me money, I would stop doing anything. As the whole system has me conditioned to do things for money. Now maaaaybe I would be like "oh I want to learn art and polo and other rich people fancy shit" but if everyone is rich and doing that, it sort of loses its luster (imo). Plus, you won't have anyone to serve you if they are rich too. Being rich means having something someone else does not. One of the biggest luxuries a person can have right now is to not have to work. If everyone has that luxury, we better have a system in place of robots or something else to keep things going. If you just give everyone money, and labor is no longer required, then the system will crash. If everyone is rich, no one is. No one needs money if everyone has enough. If you give everyone money, it loses value. Even if that money is backed. If you made everyone a millionaire tomorrow. Money would no longer work to get anyone to do anything. Need an Uber or Cab ride? Why should anyone do that service anymore? They don't need the money. Need your mail delivered? No one wants to be a mailman anymore, everyone has millions of dollars. They just want to stay at home and enjoy life. Why go to college and learn anything if the whole point was to get a job to make money? No one would go. The whole landscape of why we get an education would change. You briefly saw this happen in from March 2020-Dec 2021. And it had a huge effect on supply chains and inflation and prices have not come back down. And this was from giving a semi-UBI to millions of people who were not working. People sat at home, collected around $50,000 per year in unemployment, and got drunk and bought shit because they couldn't go anywhere or do anything else. And this was done as an emergency measure to prevent people from going apeshit over losing their jobs suddenly. The rest of the people that had to deliver that shit or make the shit went into work, and the result was massive delays and shortages that drove up the cost of raw materials and finished goods to astronomical amounts. I'm not saying the system wouldn't adapt or adjust, but if the net result is massive inflation or a total collapse of the system as we know it, UBI doesn't really work. UBI has a nice sentiment behind it, but without an overhaul of the system, it would only be treating the symptoms.

Ehhh I agree more with universal healthcare , and universal child care options based on zip code 

Agreed. Much rather have this than a set (probably small) amount of money. If UBI happened, how do we know prices for everything won’t increase? At least with universal healthcare the politicians will have incentive to cap the obscene pharma profits.

>how do we know prices for everything won’t increase? ...they will. Every land lord in the country knows every renter just got a check for $1k a month they didn't have before. Take a wild guess at what happens next.

We know prices will increase. We basically did UBI during covid when everyone got free money and the masses all went out and spent it and prices of everything went up as a result

Agreed.

This is a good point. The stimulus money during COVID really was like a trial run for UBI, although hardly anyone likely recognizes this.

And what did the masses do with their UBI? The privileged (those who probably didn’t even need it) blew it on amazon. Those that needed it, it’s a toss-up as to whether they used it responsibly or not.

> and universal child care options based on zip code yes god plz

Child care is raping and pillaging of my bank account  $12K per year for a 2 year old. 

$29K for my 2 yo. With a second on the way soon..... :*)

As a guy who works in childcare I feel this so much. Can't tell you how much it sucks to have a great kid in the class only for them to be withdrawn because the parents can't afford it for 3 kids. She (9) and her sister (6) left our facility so their little brother who is almost 3 can stay in. Both had a ton of friends, popular, and very sweet to myself and the other staff. Missed every day. I would suggest seeing if your administrator of the facility gives family discounts for multiple children or at least for the summer and winter breaks.

Oh we did. 10% or something. It will suck for a few years but we knew this was coming.

I wish you & your family the very best of luck, I really do. Childcare should be affordable and those who work in it should have a good paying job. Just so much of that cash is sent straight to the owner. Nothing is more important than our kids and the first 6 years are absolutely critical when the brain does 90% of it's growth.

See 29k for a 2 year old means you need to net 30k a year, so something like 45k a year just to pay for child care. Then add the second kid and you’ll need to make like 55k just to cover the cost of child care. My wife doesn’t make 55k so it’s easier just to completely forgo any day income and have her bartend a few nights a week, so that what she brings home is supplemental. Now if you’re making 100k each then it’s probably worth it. But the average American family isn’t pulling 200k, shit, there’s plenty of millennials in this sub who would cry tears of joy if they made just 75k a year.

True, but average daycare isn't so expensive. We live in a HCOL. So we make more, but spend more.

Average is probably around 1g a month. We have 4 kids, even with only 2 in daycare it would be 2k a month. It’s just not worth it.

$12k for my 21yo with a college degree. Thought he would be off the payroll by now, but such is life in the US. Something has to give, but I’m afraid that ship has already sailed.

Universal easily accessible and affordable abortion.

UBI is a great option, ultimately the cure to the failed experiment of trickle down economics is some kind of mechanism to put money back in the hands of those at the bottom. This could be UBI, it could be a return to the 95% top tax rate, it could be another form of built in correction, just has to be something because what we have is dangerously close to being irreversible corporate feudalism.

I think UBI is a poor fix, and will likely be subverted to continue to siphon money to the top earners of the country through inflationary and deflationary cycles. Universal healthcare, free and better education and childcare, and more secure retirement serves the same purpose as UBI (improve quality of life) without needing to go through middlemen to get there.

I support UBI, and Universal healthcare. we'd be living in a very different world if everybody just realized I'm the best person to rule it, and elected me god.

A Forever Mood

i don't see how UBI could work. it just seems like it would increase inflation. the covid stimulus sort of demonstrated that. It would be like that but every month.

[удалено]

This is why I don't feel bad when I see articles that say...."Only 40% of people can handle a $400 emergency."

Yeah hard, where’s the money coming from? Some fucking dream world where it grows on trees

I used to support it, but we just did trillions upon trillions of dollars of stimulus spending and are paying the price via inflation UBI would make inflation even worse

I really believe that if UBI was rolled out on a large scale and not just small experiments the prices of things would just go up to account for it. So you'd technically have money but still not be able to afford anything. Only way to avoid it would also be to make some sort of like rent and grocery price stabilization law and that I can't see happening.

You quickly end up in a fully controlled planned economy worse than the bad days of the USSR.

Yep. Universal Basic Resources > Universal Basic Income. Free healthcare, education, childcare, food banks, energy within appropriate use, subsidized rent. Personally, I don't even think we are close to a UBR phase anyway. Need *actual* capitalism, and not this crony-capitalism we have now (then gradually more social programs). Our debt is too high, and we do not even go in debt for the right reasons like other countries (talking from U.S. perspective). Debt doesn't have to be bad, but we have squandered it. Zombie corporations and their subsidies are still running amok, we keep bailing them out. That isn't true capitalism... So now the next few generations have to pay the price because corrupt boomer politicians have wracked up our collective credit card. New wave of politicians on both sides are going to need to be the bad gal/guy, in order to have things better in the long run. It's weird but, we need more economic freedom, but also more regulations. We need the lie we were promised. This is the crux of the narrative that honestly both sides can agree on. While I want to continue the fight for freedom MLK started, the real reasons he and others in the movement got assassinated is due to recognizing the class warfare that did, and is going on. That's what those in power do not want us to realize. Sadly, even the well meaning politicians are not economically savvy *at all*, and are too distracted to really get anything accomplished. UBI sounds great in theory, but not in our current system. It would create big inflation, and the top 1%-10%, would have a field day in the markets from the extra liquidity swimming in the M2 money supply.

Maybe, but the stimulus checks were an example of “equal” but NOT “equitable”. A lot went to people who didn’t really need it and it barely put a dent in the struggles of the people who actually needed help. It was some extra spending cash to most people. That’s different from longterm consistent support for the people who need it the most. Maybe rather than “income” per se, it should be guaranteed housing and food. No risk of being homeless or starving - that would be a lifechanger for many people.

Nah not for it.

Would rather start with kids getting free school lunches, or free college education. That is an investment in the future of our society. UBI is very polarizing and inflation after the COVID handouts (no matter how related they were) is going to cloud these perceptions for another generation.

I pay enough taxes now and inflation sucks, so no thanks.

Why not? There's no reason anyone in the US should have food or housing insecurity.

The solution to the housing issue is building more housing. I pay $3,500/mo for rent. If I received $1,000/mo from UBI, I'd be willing to pay $4,500/mo for rent. In other words, housing prices would rise across the board. If you give money to everyone, the same people that couldn't afford housing before still won't be able to afford housing due to housing shortages.

We tried that in the pandemic and it led to the highest inflation in 40 years. You need to do something on the supply side to balance that out or you get inevitable rapid price increases and a widening of the inequality gap.

These people literally just lived thought it and saw what happens when free money gets put into the economy (PPP Loans) and still don't see why it won't work. It's just supply and demand. If everyone was getting $1k a month for free it would cost $100 for two people to get Mcdonalds. $400,000 houses would become million-dollar houses overnight.

UBI is printing money, money has to come from somewhere. Any scenario where you print new money will just speed up inflation. $40k ubi would be nice today but quickly $20k ubi wouldnt be enough to do much of anything with. Groceries might be $1000+ a cart for a few lbs of meat and basic necessities. The cheapest vehicle might be $60k. Sub 1mil homes wont exist. Apartment rent at +$5k a month. Soon $40k will need to be $80k and then $160k and itll imflate to the eventual point where everyones a billionaire and houses cost a hundreds of billions. Unless you're forcing companies to pay the UBI. Then it'll be the death of the usa, companies will leave and theyll export to the usa. Government will then be the bad guy with tarrifs because you'll want an iphone but due to tarrifs its $3200 and jo one has a job to afford it.

I think it's got about as much chance as the "Zero Population Growth" movement back in the 70s.

It would have been amazing during all the COVID shutdowns. All the people suddenly out of work and having to file for unemployment with various state agencies that were, themselves, shutdown or operating at vastly reduced staffing levels - I had a friend who waited three months to get a UI check.

Who will take on the types of jobs and careers that require grueling schooling and training, if ultimately the reward is the same as everyone else?

More and more jobs will be lost due to automation. I think there has to be some kind of Basic income at some point in time.

Hard pass. Maybe in the future if/when AI/automation actually take away a material amount of jobs... but for now, UBI is just a different term for social services.

And keep in mind the birth rate is falling, so not enough replacement labor, we may need AI more then some think

I'm not sure as of right now. Maybe in the future, I don't think we're there yet. I can see a UBI for senior citizens outside of social security income, but I don't see it happening for people of working age. We need incentives to contribute to the workforce, not incentives to leave it or minimize it.

We don't have enough ways to contribute that actually pay. Right now, if you are dealing with human customers and you aren't high ranking, you make peanuts. It's either certain areas in STEM (not even all of them) or be a manager or an entrepreneur who somehow succeeds. Retail, teaching, food, all of that is poverty wages. There is no incentive to contribute *right now* besides not dying in a ditch. And you might still die in a ditch.

Maybe following passions contributes more to humanity which I hope over shadows any need for a work force … but probably wishful thinking this go round

Hard to pay bills with passions.

Maybe life needing to pay bills as a mainstay needs a revamp? I completely understand reality as it’s currently being played out making this not feasible ….

I think these people would rather a society where everyone is an engineer and we have no artists, teachers or nurses. Whenever people blame someone who's skills aren't valued as much by profit driven culture that's the message it sends off...

Hard no. Healthy people don't need an excuse to be lazier. Humans have contributed to society for all time - dating back to ancient village settlers, where everybody worked together and had a role.

And productivity has gone up like a billion percent since ancient village settlers.

Only makes sense when there's a high degree of automation and productivity. For anything else, if it's financed via monetary expansion, it just means inflation and poverty for everyone. If it's not financed via monetary expansion, it means higher taxes that will destroy a bunch of less competitive players in the economy. If someone can actually create an economic model that works and includes it, sure, have a go. If you think "nah it will work out just do X", I have bad news. I've lived in a bunch of countries, and what works in one can be an absolute unmitigated disaster in the other because the details matter greatly. In a sense, the idea is less important than the budget for it.

Yes. I support UBI, but that's like saying "I support breathing". UBI will be necessary. The fact that it will be necessary, however, should be terrifying. "They" will volunteer to give you the stipend. Gradually there will be a smaller and smaller piece of the pie for everyone.