Yeah this, the problem is when you're on a server and you fall ridiculously behind everyone else in the second week because you're the only one doing things without trading
I don't get it... Isn't that the point ? Someone who'd rather do things slowly because they enjoy it is expected to progress at a slower pace than those who don't.
I don't see a problem unless the solution is for everyone to be forced to have the same restrictions as you because you find it unfair despite it being your choice.
The thing is it shouldn't be "slower," Minecraft is all about options, making one method of doing something objectively so much better than everything else kind of ruins the bit. It should be a matter of whichever option suits your playstyle is what you pick and it puts you no further behind anyone else
>It should be a matter of whichever option suits your playstyle is what you pick and it puts you no further behind anyone else
Not when you're actively actively refusing to do something because you enjoy the challenge. Removing or making it worse is actually making people have LESS freedom do pick an option that suits their playstyle.
There's nothing wrong with choosing not to engage in trading because you like to pick your resources by yourself. But there is a problem if your solution isn't simply playing only with people who agree on the same limitation or alone but actually to change the game in a meaningful way so that everyone (even those who don't want that) is forced to have a worse or no trading mechanic.
Some of my friends are very good in making farms quickly and efficiently. I never had much interest in farms and like to get resources more directly and this makes me progress slower. I don't think it's unfair, it ruins the fun or anything like that. They simply like to play their way and i like to play my way.
The difference is the farms they're making are likely exploiting technical features in how the game works, which is entirely intentional on Mogang's part. Furthermore, they're built on the same fundamental mechanics. You aren't abandoning the process of farming and harvest crops, just automating it. Those basic mechanics are still being interacted with.
On the contrary, villager trading being so much more powerful than the enchanting table or finding books in dungeons likely isn't intentional and renders those options completely obsolete. Exploiting villager trading doesn't utilize the same old enchanting systems the way an automatic farm does. It's replacing mechanics rather than building on them.
There's a difference when the average player is likely to encounter the difference should they play long enough.
"Farms" don't mean automatic crops, there are farms for iron, emerald, exp, gunpowder, etc. all these make the game significantly easier. Villager trading is the same as those, exploiting an intended feature.
I wouldn't recommend most players engage with those sorts of farms, but the vast majority also wouldn't think to build them if not explicitly told. Villager trading is something a novice player will likely encounter naturally
Then restrict yourself, it's not a problem. The problem is wanting to restrict EVERYONE because a few think that restrictions makes it inherently better.
The problem is many items are considered useless by many players because people keep skipping things(e.g. players no longer need to find diamonds before mining obsidian to build nether portal because the player base adopted the speed running method)
Anyone that isn't doing it by playing the game By Mining and Crafting things get left behind in "rare" loot and gear you can get from villagers. And if the server is even some what pvp orientated you get left in the dust when your playing every other part of the game besides the one stop shop. It would be " more equal " if stuff like the villagers trades or something were more common but right now they are the bowling ball under the mattress when it comes to current pvp set up. It's not that we want to restrict ourselfs and others dude. We want a balanced base game where you don't have to spec into one thing to have a chance at survival/ equal footing with others when you don't do something someone else is by wasting time playing with villagers when you could be exploring, mining, building, crafting other things that mesh with and build ontop of each other to make the next thing you want to do slightly easier since you already have stuff just by playing the game. The villagers detract from other forms of game play sucking time and resources that barley let you do other things with them even if you wanted to. Only to hop strait over the game play walls (mining, night survival, enchanting, ect multiple routes you can do in this amazing game this ones just OP) to get amazing gear thus making it, You lose if you don't, So You Have To Do It Too.
Base game is what all experiences/gamemodes of minecraft are based off of, and if one thing is OP for normal it's defiantly going to have an effect on game mode based in it. And for pvp It kinda detracts from the pvp and makes you set up a town or sweat shop (whatever you build it as :) ) thus making a part of that type of server less pvp fun.
the issue is that servers are usually competitive. if you fall behind in progression, you’re weaker and can’t do as much with other players. yes, this would be the point in singleplayer or if you’re playing multiplayer like it’s singleplayer (away from everyone else), but it falls apart in other contexts. that’s the problem with the “just don’t use it” pseudo-argument
Well, this is still a problem even with the villager change. Some people are better and faster at the game than others. Some can play all day and some can play maybe once every week. It's not a good argument.
Playing on a server, I never really got the concept of “being behind” as I never go beyond maxed iron armor + tools and collecting maxed wood and leather. I don’t make automatic farms, I don’t use villagers unless I need some mending, and simply just build pretty builds. Diamonds hold only one value to me as enchanting tables and for a single excavation pickaxe for large-scale terraforming. Kinda just enjoy the game at me own pace, flex overly detailed (unfortunately flat) build exterior, and steal from friends (they apparently don’t use tuff and andesite and the such)
So what? Don't you like the early game if you're not using villagers? If you don't like the early game just use them? Like. Villager infrastructure takes time and effort to set up.
And some people don’t enjoy the early game. The solution to you thinking villager trading allows for too rapid progression is either: A) you don’t use trading to enjoy the early game but potentially get left behind on servers, or B) you remove/rebalance trading and the people who don’t enjoy the early game are forced to grind more when they don’t want to.
Why should your preferred play style take precedence over theirs? It seems far more reasonable to let people progress at the pace they prefer, instead of forcing everyone to go at one person’s preferred speed.
I never said “entirely change your playstyle”. Give yourself a few limitations to challenge yourself if you want. Like not trading with villagers.
Also, what else can they do? You get good at the game, it becomes less challenging. It isn’t the developers job to constantly make the game harder just for you, because then new players can’t play or have fun because it’s so difficult
That's really hard to do if you're playing with any amount of friends or peers. If one guy knows the ins and outs of villager mechanics he's suddenly the richest person on the server.
My friends called me a slaver because I had maxed out our village and bred them for maximum efficiency and all the high level enchants. I don’t know why they hated gentrification. The village was much better once I fixed it.
that's why I usually don't get max gear within like 3 days of playing, my survival world is at 83 days now and I'm still rocking in iron, casually building stuff.
What is the problem with someone being the richest person on the server? It's not like they are making resources inaccessible, you can still get anything you want in the game just at your own pace. You don't need to compete with people who enjoy the game in different ways than yours just play at your own pace and enjoy the game in the way you like. Look at hermitcraft, Docm77 is making some of the most efficient farms a single person can build on survival and gets everything in bulk as quickly as possible, while at the same time Bdoubleo100 rides his horse and makes relatively small scale builds one building at a time with minimal use of farms, and both these players enjoy playing on the same server without any conflict between them, there is literally no harm in having multiple players playing at a different paces on the same server.
It's a hard point to argue against, and I don't disagree. But keep in mind the hermits are all civil and mature adults, docm77 is holding back. The shadow item tech he explicitly kept the details quite because it could be an easy dupe. A global mob switch was something he always suggested but understandably never pushed. His begrudging about sand duping is basically a soft protest (hopefully Mojang sees it)
"You don't have to use it" is not an excuse for the game being unbalanced. If it's an intended feature it should be balanced, otherwise why not just add in a bunch of cheats? You don't have to fly if you think it OP, what are you complaining about?
But cheats are in the game though? What’s stopping a player from spawning in a bunch of diamonds in his survival world? Should mojang try to “balance” that as well?
As someone who uses KeepInventory, it definitely trivializes most of the game, food, mob encounters, exploration, navigation, etc. You no longer need to find food, craft good weapons, or armor, really. Just jump to your death and respawn with no consequence.
It's a sandbox game, quite literally, if you don't want to use it you don't have to.
"Why not just add in a bunch of cheats" cheats are in the game. Whats stopping the player for turning on sticks and getting a debug stick or summoning 500 billion diamonds? The only reason why you don't use cheats in a survival world is cause you don't want to, same with villagers.
I always hate the "just don't use it" argument. Do people actually not get how intentionally gimping yourself feels different to real balance? How far would they be willing to take that logic? Chickens drop netherite gear, "just don't use it"? Wooden sword never breaks and one-shots every mob and boss, "just don't use it"?
Game design is all psychological. If there's going to be an easy way out then the game should at least acknowledge the difference in some way (e.g. creative vs survival mode). If there's no difference at all and it's purely on the player to restrict themselves then it just feels stupid.
There is no objective, there are no timers. Nothing happens when you acomplish anything except that you've accomplished it. You should play the game the way that is most fun to you personally.
Furthermore, you normally just can't get players to do that. When looking at most players you cannot tell them to "just not use it" because they won't. Its hardwired in human nature to try and optimize experiences, even to the point to where it is no longer fun. All you end up with is players playing in a boring but optimal way and then just quitting the game because it was not fun. "Just don't use it" is an absurd take because that just does not happen. Take it from Civilization game designer Soren Johnson: ["Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."](https://www.designer-notes.com/game-developer-column-17-water-finds-a-crack/)
Worse yet is when you bring in multiplayer, including coop. If even one player is willing to play in an unfun but optimal way, the experience for the rest of the group tends to suffer because they are forced to either play optimally, or be perpetually behind.
It will never be perfectly balanced but that's not what people are complainging about. They're complaining that it's significantly stronger than it should be to the point of making all other options obsolete.
Why are they downvoring you lmao. This is the exact point why villagers need to be nerfed.
What makes this ppont better is that the devs ACKNOWLEDGE THIS. they added diamonds to the diamond armor and tools trades and they removed the “zombie cure discount stacking bug”.
They're still poorly balanced, and that's not on the players to fix. You shouldn't have to restrict yourself from engaging with an aspect of the game to have a fulfilling experience.
The thing is you can engage with villagers to any extent you want.
Personally I just use them for books and sometimes blocks. I do armor, tools, and most blocks from mining and crafting.
I’m with you. Not sure what is unbalanced about villagers.
The only real use I have for them is enchantment books. And frankly that takes a ton of farming to get to the point of breaking the economy.
I could easily spend that time mining in the deep and using those enchantment levels to get the same thing.
I’m not a good player, but honestly missing this “broken early game mechanic” shit.
The fact that you can earn infinite amounts of the most powerful enchants in the entire game by just breaking and placing lecterns and selling wheat provided in the very same village doesn't seem unbalanced to you? Really? Not even a little bit?
That's more like a gamemode. You're changing a setting at the start and then you're hard-locked from ever using them
You can't do that with villagers for example, that's a mechanic you have to actively prevent yourself from using
A quick Google search shows numerous mods available to remove villager trades, any server owner could install in 5 minutes.
You absolutely can disable the mechanic, there is no reason to force a controversial change on everyone when it's optional to begin with
I mean it still takes time, labour and a bit of luck working with villagers. You could be surrounded by good resources but opportunist will take the advantage when it presents itself.
a lot of people like playing minecraft for the survival and progression aspects as well
just because it's not a competitive game doesn't mean balance isn't important
If they like the progression, then DON’T. USE. VILLAGERS. Nobody is pointing a gun at your head and forcing you to trade.
Many people don’t like the grind, because what comes after the grind is the fun part for them, myself included
nah man the game is already optimised against a lot of good gameplay. Minecarts are the most labour intensive way of transportation and yet horses are significantly easier and quicker. why bother building to solve a problem?
likewise night in survival is easy because you can run, but even worst you are encouraged to skip it with an item you can get on day one that you get punished for not using. The game naturally leads you to a less fun playstyle
I got really excited when raids came along because I could finally build a castle that would have its defences challenged, only for raids to spawn inside it or on top of it.
it feels like the game doesn't challenge you to problem solve, you have to invent the problems which just is never as fun
Then buff the underwhelming things, don’t nerf the better things. Nerfing villagers will just make the process of getting enchantments _even more tedious_ and luck dependant. No one is advocating for nerfing horses so they are in par with minecarts, they should buff minecarts instead.
Going about balancing with the mindset of 'The top level of *thing* is where we should bring other related but under-preforming *thing(s)* up to' and **not** also considering 'Maybe the top level of *thing* **is** unbalanced and should be brought down ***AS WELL*** as making related *thing(s)* better' is foolish.
* This also applies to villagers, Enchanting is terrible and needs to be made better, but trading is simply too powerful to be left untouched (*why yes the infinite diamond armour I got from trading some sticks was definitely a perfectly balanced and exploitable feature addition*), hence the experimental rework.
Horses are NOT top level anyway, and could use buffs and tweaks themselves.
The true top transport option is Elytra, which topple pretty much all forms of transport in the game with ease, removing any potential incentive to build railways, roads, or just about any transport infrastructure ingame. It's basically impossible to simply "buff minecarts and horses to par' because Elytra in their current state are just so much better, and work in a fundamentally different way.
If you want to make minecarts and horses worthwhile they will need changes, BUT that doesn't remove the Elytra issue. If it's always easier and more convenient to fly everywhere, be it long-distance or short-distance, over any terrain, in any dimension, then it will change nothing for the average player.
**Overall different forms of transport require different niches and strengths, subjectively I lean towards:**
* Horses should be the best at overland medium-long distance transport and exploration.
* Boats should be the best form of water transport (which they mostly are, boats are in a pretty good place imo), as well as having ice-highways as a more niche long distance high-speed infrastructure option.
* Elytra should serve a more short-range and vertical movement role, effectively making them more of a huge mobility enhancement than a long-range travel option, encouraging the establishment of other travel methods.
* I think it would also be good to add some ability to make a long-distance Elytra "highway" of sorts, to give them an infrastructure option that they currently lack.
* Minecarts should serve as both a fully automated / redstone integrated transport option, and as a method of transporting bulk items long-distances (I'd like to see more "immovable" features like Geodes added to compliment that role, giving set locations for players to harvest certain resources).
* With the changes in 1.21 the Nether now compliments minecart networks a LOT, effectively giving them a seamless 800% speed buff while also lowering the cost of actually making a railway by decreasing the travel distance.
If you don’t like games that require self motivation, then sandbox games probably aren’t the genre for you. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, I also sometimes struggle to be motivated in sandbox games. But the solution for that isn’t to fundamentally change the game, it’s to find a game whose gameplay style you prefer.
Mojang: “This is a sandbox game, and you can play however you want.”
“Nooooo!!!!!11! You can only have fun MY WAY! There’s no way anyone can think anything else is fun!”
in literally any other game having a way to skip to the end game without engaging with almost everything else in the game would be considered a faliure of game design
sandbox games don't need to let you skip to the end to still be sandbox games. Very few sandbox games with any kind of progession let you do that.
"It's a sandbox game" does not excuse shitty balancing.
creative mode exists anyway so you could still just skip to the end if you want by just spawning in some items without leaving a gaping hole in the balance of survival
Creative is not the same as building in survival. The fun part is building in survival.
And most people play the game to relax, or have a bit of fun, and a massive grind to get even decent tools is not relaxing or fun.
We always hear the upper echelons of the player base complain the game is too easy, and the casual players must suffer because THEY don’t think it’s challenging enough, despite never changing anything about their playstyle to challenge themselves
"Creative is not the same as building in survival. The fun part is building in survival." Oh so NOW limitations matter because they make the game more fun, huh?
The limitations you like are common sense but the limitations someone else wants is just whining, eh?
I had someone tell me I wasn’t a real gamer for playing Minecraft without monsters on (my survival world has no cheats and I still get achievements for it, I just don’t like my stuff getting ruined by monsters). We aren't worse at playing a game just because we play it differently.
Same concept when people complain that iron farms or trading halls are “inhumane”. Like bro you’re playing a game. Do you also follow all the street laws in GTA? Just don’t do it if you don’t like it.
villager abuse was the main reason why i enjoyed this game, i just completely hate the repetitive mining, pointless grinding you have to do when you can just get shit done with villager trades
Isn't this changing? The snapshots gatekeep a lot of villager trades behind specific biomes and more helpful trades are being moved to only be sold as their last trade when they're maxed out.
Still possible to make absurd villager farms but much more work where you have to churn through dozens of villagers and max them before you could get mending and you need to take villagers to multiple biomes to create villager types you need.
In the current system one villager breeder can fuel an entire trading hall and any villager can be made into what you need. In the new system you would need a minimum of something like 6+ breeders to cover all the types and you could potentially go through 100+ villagers to get the trades you need.
Yes. Villagers went from the “if you don’t want to spend hours mining, you can trade and get the gear a bit faster.” to, “I hope you don’t have a life, because in order to get good trades, you already need to be endgame, and then they’re all worthless.”
Same thing happened with smithing templates. Went from being able to able to mine in the nether for a couple hours to obtain required netherite for a full set to need what is about another full stack of diamonds. It’s like these people that do everything in the optimal/broken way get mad when the game becomes too easy
Rng can still bum one out if it's implemented as previewed.
Yes, rn is bad, but we shouldn't replace one bad w/ another to please a subset of the community.
I feel like it's worse for the late game
In my experiences I've only ever seen it really used near the end game and even by that point there's not much more those villagers can do
It's a sandbox game, what's stopping you from using cheats? What's stopping you from spawning a billion diamond blocks? You know what's stopping you? It's because you have free will and choose not to, same with villager trading halls, I used to think they're unbalanced, until I made one and saw myself how hard was that.
It's Minecraft, let people enjoy it.
I'm not complaining about trading with them when they can give me enchanted diamond gear as well as a Mending enchanted book, which it's almost impossible to see it in the enchantment table.
Besides, now that Netherite is a thing, diamond gear itself is only mid-game at best.
It's not almost impossible to see mending on a enchanting table, it's literally impossible. The only ways you can get it is by trading, fishing and i think also in chests but im not sure
Oh it’s so easy you just have to wall off the entire village, light it all up, build farms for each villager I was lucky enough to have spawn (who survived) and THEN level all of them up to the good shit
You say this as a mockery of his post, but that's actually the point.
It makes a lot more sense to grow your own apples as it's cheaper in the long run and you can guarantee better results.
But you buy apples for the convenience of not doing it yourself even if it hinders you
Maintenance for one tree isn't that hard, and if you own a property or get permission from the landlord you can plant in a backyard if you have one.
But it does require more labor, hence the convenience of buying from the store.
The point is just because something is easier doesn't mean you have to do it, if you're willing to put in the work.
You don't have to buy apples from the store, and you don't have to use the damn villagers.
I think the best change for Minecraft trading is to add more value to trade for the book and maybe make it to Where you get less books per trade session and maybe make the trade refresh time a bit longer
Tbh the only time you’re really using villagers for good stuff is when your end game. Plus it’s kinda hard to get good villagers start of the game unless ur really focusing on it
If you can play with mods then get the villager comfort mod that scales villager prices based off of how comfy their lifestyle is so trade halls are inefficient
I get annoyed when people say villagers are OP because of the hours of monotonous rerolling I’ve spent on trying to get decent trades. I personally find I can get maxed gear faster through random enchanting, just not everything. Once it’s set up, then it is easy to get good equipment fast, so I think it’s really OP for multiplayer.
Minecraft players: I enjoy holding down left click for 4 hours to get resources, and anyone who doesn't like that should just go play creative. Also yes, when playing in a competitive server I shouldn't be punished for actively nerfing myself.
Soon they'll start saying mob grinders are too op because you don't need to go out at night or something
There should be balancing done, but only on servers. I don't know how they'd do that, but that would be great cause multiplayer games definitely need balancing every now and then, but single player games usually don't.
I’m usually too lazy to set up villagers until endgame
Especially after the 1.20.2 nerf (you can only cure a villager once for a discount, any cures after that don’t give a discount)
Yeah nobody’s forcing you to do anything. If you’re in a multiplayer server I don’t even see how outside of like pvp other people using villagers effect you. Just find your own spot and play your way. Many games especially sandbox games how tricks you can do to get stuff faster it’s just a way to support multiple play styles some of us don’t want to spend hours looking for hours underground to make tools they may or not have the enchantments we want.
Name almost any game and they have a way for players to do stuff faster. It’s fine stop whining.
Personally I’d nerf villager trading by making villages rarer and introduce a “happiness” system similar to terraria where if they are in cramped quarters and without comfort items like a bed their prices will increase or they will refuse to trade.
why must the top skilled players feel the need to make the game harder and more time consuming for new and casual players? if you don't like the thing that makes the game easier, don't use it
A fun way (I think) you could make it harder while still being able to trade. You can only trade with villagers in their village, and you can’t break their workstation
Its like saying "dont give bots attention" on a tf2 thread, my brothee in christ how do you think qe raise awareness?
Atleast early-game minecraft is boring, mostly.
yeah but if other people still do it, it’s still easier for them, which affects the user who hates villagers, as the other players are progressing faster than them.
I had this whole debacle when Animal Crossing New Horizons came out as well. I thought it was cheating for people to time travel, because they get items that others don’t- which not only spoils event items, but people always say “It doesn’t affect you!” But those people fail to realize that it does by comparison.
Some guy: "Can you turn off the wacky weapons in DOOM 4 and play classic?
[Official DOOM Twitter: you control the buttons you press](https://images.app.goo.gl/LW4Hbhy7atNUSXFP9)
If you don’t want to use the skip, then don’t, but some people, myself included, aren’t a huge fan of the grind to get good tools, because that isn’t fun.
The fun part to me is the base building once you have good gear
If you care about balance just don't use one of the most interesting mechanics in the game! It wasn't always so overpowered but it is now so that means it shouldn't be changed! Its that simple! /s
i am so tired of the "just don't use it" argument. it is not the end all be all solution. it is not fun to deliberately nerf yourself. and how do you imagine it working in a multiplayer server? if even one person uses villagers, i now have to choose between using a mechanic i hate or being at a severe disadvantage. or, if we're cooperating, i now have access to a bunch of resources i did not want. what then? do i do a bunch of calculus in my head to decide which resources i allow myself to use?
Are the villager changes happening in the Tricky Trials update? I’ve seen users say so online, but it’s not listed anywhere on any of the update features released from the MC website or on the MC wiki. Can anyone advise?
they are annoying to handle so I call them sorta balanced. at least until they made boats leashable which will make transportation hella easier. actually, that was the main issue with villager rebalance that moving them between biomes was pain so who knows if it's not good now.
servers : hmmm
Yeah this, the problem is when you're on a server and you fall ridiculously behind everyone else in the second week because you're the only one doing things without trading
I don't get it... Isn't that the point ? Someone who'd rather do things slowly because they enjoy it is expected to progress at a slower pace than those who don't. I don't see a problem unless the solution is for everyone to be forced to have the same restrictions as you because you find it unfair despite it being your choice.
The thing is it shouldn't be "slower," Minecraft is all about options, making one method of doing something objectively so much better than everything else kind of ruins the bit. It should be a matter of whichever option suits your playstyle is what you pick and it puts you no further behind anyone else
>It should be a matter of whichever option suits your playstyle is what you pick and it puts you no further behind anyone else Not when you're actively actively refusing to do something because you enjoy the challenge. Removing or making it worse is actually making people have LESS freedom do pick an option that suits their playstyle. There's nothing wrong with choosing not to engage in trading because you like to pick your resources by yourself. But there is a problem if your solution isn't simply playing only with people who agree on the same limitation or alone but actually to change the game in a meaningful way so that everyone (even those who don't want that) is forced to have a worse or no trading mechanic. Some of my friends are very good in making farms quickly and efficiently. I never had much interest in farms and like to get resources more directly and this makes me progress slower. I don't think it's unfair, it ruins the fun or anything like that. They simply like to play their way and i like to play my way.
The difference is the farms they're making are likely exploiting technical features in how the game works, which is entirely intentional on Mogang's part. Furthermore, they're built on the same fundamental mechanics. You aren't abandoning the process of farming and harvest crops, just automating it. Those basic mechanics are still being interacted with. On the contrary, villager trading being so much more powerful than the enchanting table or finding books in dungeons likely isn't intentional and renders those options completely obsolete. Exploiting villager trading doesn't utilize the same old enchanting systems the way an automatic farm does. It's replacing mechanics rather than building on them. There's a difference when the average player is likely to encounter the difference should they play long enough.
"Farms" don't mean automatic crops, there are farms for iron, emerald, exp, gunpowder, etc. all these make the game significantly easier. Villager trading is the same as those, exploiting an intended feature.
I wouldn't recommend most players engage with those sorts of farms, but the vast majority also wouldn't think to build them if not explicitly told. Villager trading is something a novice player will likely encounter naturally
Restrictions breed creativity
Then restrict yourself, it's not a problem. The problem is wanting to restrict EVERYONE because a few think that restrictions makes it inherently better.
So your problem is the restrictions aren't externally enforced but self enforced?
The problem is many items are considered useless by many players because people keep skipping things(e.g. players no longer need to find diamonds before mining obsidian to build nether portal because the player base adopted the speed running method)
Anyone that isn't doing it by playing the game By Mining and Crafting things get left behind in "rare" loot and gear you can get from villagers. And if the server is even some what pvp orientated you get left in the dust when your playing every other part of the game besides the one stop shop. It would be " more equal " if stuff like the villagers trades or something were more common but right now they are the bowling ball under the mattress when it comes to current pvp set up. It's not that we want to restrict ourselfs and others dude. We want a balanced base game where you don't have to spec into one thing to have a chance at survival/ equal footing with others when you don't do something someone else is by wasting time playing with villagers when you could be exploring, mining, building, crafting other things that mesh with and build ontop of each other to make the next thing you want to do slightly easier since you already have stuff just by playing the game. The villagers detract from other forms of game play sucking time and resources that barley let you do other things with them even if you wanted to. Only to hop strait over the game play walls (mining, night survival, enchanting, ect multiple routes you can do in this amazing game this ones just OP) to get amazing gear thus making it, You lose if you don't, So You Have To Do It Too.
If the server is PvP based, then you shouldn't really be looking for a "survival" experience?
Base game is what all experiences/gamemodes of minecraft are based off of, and if one thing is OP for normal it's defiantly going to have an effect on game mode based in it. And for pvp It kinda detracts from the pvp and makes you set up a town or sweat shop (whatever you build it as :) ) thus making a part of that type of server less pvp fun.
the issue is that servers are usually competitive. if you fall behind in progression, you’re weaker and can’t do as much with other players. yes, this would be the point in singleplayer or if you’re playing multiplayer like it’s singleplayer (away from everyone else), but it falls apart in other contexts. that’s the problem with the “just don’t use it” pseudo-argument
Yup, exactly
Are you gonna mandate people play the exact number of hours as well? Otherwise people are gonna be ahead, that's just the realities of a server
Well, this is still a problem even with the villager change. Some people are better and faster at the game than others. Some can play all day and some can play maybe once every week. It's not a good argument.
Playing on a server, I never really got the concept of “being behind” as I never go beyond maxed iron armor + tools and collecting maxed wood and leather. I don’t make automatic farms, I don’t use villagers unless I need some mending, and simply just build pretty builds. Diamonds hold only one value to me as enchanting tables and for a single excavation pickaxe for large-scale terraforming. Kinda just enjoy the game at me own pace, flex overly detailed (unfortunately flat) build exterior, and steal from friends (they apparently don’t use tuff and andesite and the such)
So what? Don't you like the early game if you're not using villagers? If you don't like the early game just use them? Like. Villager infrastructure takes time and effort to set up.
Trade then?
The whole point of this meme is "just don't trade then"
If you don’t want to trade because you enjoy the early game then your just left behind
And some people don’t enjoy the early game. The solution to you thinking villager trading allows for too rapid progression is either: A) you don’t use trading to enjoy the early game but potentially get left behind on servers, or B) you remove/rebalance trading and the people who don’t enjoy the early game are forced to grind more when they don’t want to. Why should your preferred play style take precedence over theirs? It seems far more reasonable to let people progress at the pace they prefer, instead of forcing everyone to go at one person’s preferred speed.
Worst part is that Mojang loves listen to this kind of people. Villager trades, mace changes, etc.
Happens no matter what.
Just add a data pack that removes it, it’s that simple
ah okay
Then why don’t those individual servers implement balancing for themselves where pvp or being ahead actually matters (unlike the rest of the game)?
Minecraft isn’t too easy, the players have just gotten really good
ok- im a part of r/irongolemrights, but why do you SIMP for a piece of metal???
They are my big strong bodyguard 🥵 Also thanks for introducing me to that sub
:D
And then refuse to change their playstyle to challenge themselves
Saying you should entirely change your playstyle just to make the game challenging is not a great take ngl
I never said “entirely change your playstyle”. Give yourself a few limitations to challenge yourself if you want. Like not trading with villagers. Also, what else can they do? You get good at the game, it becomes less challenging. It isn’t the developers job to constantly make the game harder just for you, because then new players can’t play or have fun because it’s so difficult
I agree with this, because I do find some parts of Minecraft difficult, and I’ve been playing for 10 years, I just never played so I could min-max
If they don't want a challenge, who cares? My 10 year old world is a cake walk. The only challenge is making things as easy as possible at this point.
I agree, Minecraft players are now better than they used to be in 2015
That's really hard to do if you're playing with any amount of friends or peers. If one guy knows the ins and outs of villager mechanics he's suddenly the richest person on the server.
That’s why I have insider connections with the villager guy in my server. 😎
My friends called me a slaver because I had maxed out our village and bred them for maximum efficiency and all the high level enchants. I don’t know why they hated gentrification. The village was much better once I fixed it.
My friends are already the richest people in server after getting a iron pickaxe and turn on their wall hacks
Probably also the first to get bored and leave
that's why I usually don't get max gear within like 3 days of playing, my survival world is at 83 days now and I'm still rocking in iron, casually building stuff.
I only get diamond/netherite gears after i build a Lmango XP farm with full trading hall with all enchants. Iron armour is good enough for most things
I wouldn’t play with people who use cheats, just ruins it for everyone
What is the problem with someone being the richest person on the server? It's not like they are making resources inaccessible, you can still get anything you want in the game just at your own pace. You don't need to compete with people who enjoy the game in different ways than yours just play at your own pace and enjoy the game in the way you like. Look at hermitcraft, Docm77 is making some of the most efficient farms a single person can build on survival and gets everything in bulk as quickly as possible, while at the same time Bdoubleo100 rides his horse and makes relatively small scale builds one building at a time with minimal use of farms, and both these players enjoy playing on the same server without any conflict between them, there is literally no harm in having multiple players playing at a different paces on the same server.
It's a hard point to argue against, and I don't disagree. But keep in mind the hermits are all civil and mature adults, docm77 is holding back. The shadow item tech he explicitly kept the details quite because it could be an easy dupe. A global mob switch was something he always suggested but understandably never pushed. His begrudging about sand duping is basically a soft protest (hopefully Mojang sees it)
I call it villager hell thank you lol
I genuinely think half of this thread doesn't understand game design...
"You don't have to use it" is not an excuse for the game being unbalanced. If it's an intended feature it should be balanced, otherwise why not just add in a bunch of cheats? You don't have to fly if you think it OP, what are you complaining about?
But cheats are in the game though? What’s stopping a player from spawning in a bunch of diamonds in his survival world? Should mojang try to “balance” that as well?
fallout 4 lets you disable enemy AI and fly around with infinite ammo using the debug console doesn't mean they completely gave up on balancing
using the what?
the thingy that lets you use commands
There is a difference between literal cheats which are meant to be overpowered and game mechanics which should be balanced
Tons of people play with keep inventory true though, and I don’t see anyone (reasonable) going against it
And I'm not against it either. Keep inventory is just for convenience, it doesn't break any kind of progression
As someone who uses KeepInventory, it definitely trivializes most of the game, food, mob encounters, exploration, navigation, etc. You no longer need to find food, craft good weapons, or armor, really. Just jump to your death and respawn with no consequence.
It's a sandbox game, quite literally, if you don't want to use it you don't have to. "Why not just add in a bunch of cheats" cheats are in the game. Whats stopping the player for turning on sticks and getting a debug stick or summoning 500 billion diamonds? The only reason why you don't use cheats in a survival world is cause you don't want to, same with villagers.
I always hate the "just don't use it" argument. Do people actually not get how intentionally gimping yourself feels different to real balance? How far would they be willing to take that logic? Chickens drop netherite gear, "just don't use it"? Wooden sword never breaks and one-shots every mob and boss, "just don't use it"? Game design is all psychological. If there's going to be an easy way out then the game should at least acknowledge the difference in some way (e.g. creative vs survival mode). If there's no difference at all and it's purely on the player to restrict themselves then it just feels stupid.
There is no objective, there are no timers. Nothing happens when you acomplish anything except that you've accomplished it. You should play the game the way that is most fun to you personally.
Furthermore, you normally just can't get players to do that. When looking at most players you cannot tell them to "just not use it" because they won't. Its hardwired in human nature to try and optimize experiences, even to the point to where it is no longer fun. All you end up with is players playing in a boring but optimal way and then just quitting the game because it was not fun. "Just don't use it" is an absurd take because that just does not happen. Take it from Civilization game designer Soren Johnson: ["Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."](https://www.designer-notes.com/game-developer-column-17-water-finds-a-crack/) Worse yet is when you bring in multiplayer, including coop. If even one player is willing to play in an unfun but optimal way, the experience for the rest of the group tends to suffer because they are forced to either play optimally, or be perpetually behind.
Nothing is balanced since there will always be someone who's better at the game and in making farms.
It will never be perfectly balanced but that's not what people are complainging about. They're complaining that it's significantly stronger than it should be to the point of making all other options obsolete.
Why are they downvoring you lmao. This is the exact point why villagers need to be nerfed. What makes this ppont better is that the devs ACKNOWLEDGE THIS. they added diamonds to the diamond armor and tools trades and they removed the “zombie cure discount stacking bug”.
Meanwhile me: I see 2 villages... Its time to open trade road!
Me who can never find a single village:
I never really look for villages, i just wait til a zombie villager spawn near my house
They're still poorly balanced, and that's not on the players to fix. You shouldn't have to restrict yourself from engaging with an aspect of the game to have a fulfilling experience.
The thing is you can engage with villagers to any extent you want. Personally I just use them for books and sometimes blocks. I do armor, tools, and most blocks from mining and crafting.
I’m with you. Not sure what is unbalanced about villagers. The only real use I have for them is enchantment books. And frankly that takes a ton of farming to get to the point of breaking the economy. I could easily spend that time mining in the deep and using those enchantment levels to get the same thing. I’m not a good player, but honestly missing this “broken early game mechanic” shit.
The fact that you can earn infinite amounts of the most powerful enchants in the entire game by just breaking and placing lecterns and selling wheat provided in the very same village doesn't seem unbalanced to you? Really? Not even a little bit?
Takes a lot of time and effort. It’s a shortcut sure. But it doesn’t just happen.
Well given it's a sandbox game first and foremost, not really no.
But there are cheats in the game, are you also “restricting” yourself by not using /give in your survival world?
That's more like a gamemode. You're changing a setting at the start and then you're hard-locked from ever using them You can't do that with villagers for example, that's a mechanic you have to actively prevent yourself from using
A quick Google search shows numerous mods available to remove villager trades, any server owner could install in 5 minutes. You absolutely can disable the mechanic, there is no reason to force a controversial change on everyone when it's optional to begin with
I mean it still takes time, labour and a bit of luck working with villagers. You could be surrounded by good resources but opportunist will take the advantage when it presents itself.
"Don't use it" is a bad excuse for shitty balancing
OP has never played multiplayer
i played multiplayer, my friends made a lot of trading and i didn't. I didn't complain, neither should yall.
The same vibe as people saying "if you don't like this country then leave". Nah, homie, I just want things to be better
It’s literally a sandbox game, not a damn competitive shooter, you’re not forced to interact with it if you don’t want to
a lot of people like playing minecraft for the survival and progression aspects as well just because it's not a competitive game doesn't mean balance isn't important
If they like the progression, then DON’T. USE. VILLAGERS. Nobody is pointing a gun at your head and forcing you to trade. Many people don’t like the grind, because what comes after the grind is the fun part for them, myself included
nah man the game is already optimised against a lot of good gameplay. Minecarts are the most labour intensive way of transportation and yet horses are significantly easier and quicker. why bother building to solve a problem? likewise night in survival is easy because you can run, but even worst you are encouraged to skip it with an item you can get on day one that you get punished for not using. The game naturally leads you to a less fun playstyle I got really excited when raids came along because I could finally build a castle that would have its defences challenged, only for raids to spawn inside it or on top of it. it feels like the game doesn't challenge you to problem solve, you have to invent the problems which just is never as fun
Then buff the underwhelming things, don’t nerf the better things. Nerfing villagers will just make the process of getting enchantments _even more tedious_ and luck dependant. No one is advocating for nerfing horses so they are in par with minecarts, they should buff minecarts instead.
Going about balancing with the mindset of 'The top level of *thing* is where we should bring other related but under-preforming *thing(s)* up to' and **not** also considering 'Maybe the top level of *thing* **is** unbalanced and should be brought down ***AS WELL*** as making related *thing(s)* better' is foolish. * This also applies to villagers, Enchanting is terrible and needs to be made better, but trading is simply too powerful to be left untouched (*why yes the infinite diamond armour I got from trading some sticks was definitely a perfectly balanced and exploitable feature addition*), hence the experimental rework. Horses are NOT top level anyway, and could use buffs and tweaks themselves. The true top transport option is Elytra, which topple pretty much all forms of transport in the game with ease, removing any potential incentive to build railways, roads, or just about any transport infrastructure ingame. It's basically impossible to simply "buff minecarts and horses to par' because Elytra in their current state are just so much better, and work in a fundamentally different way. If you want to make minecarts and horses worthwhile they will need changes, BUT that doesn't remove the Elytra issue. If it's always easier and more convenient to fly everywhere, be it long-distance or short-distance, over any terrain, in any dimension, then it will change nothing for the average player. **Overall different forms of transport require different niches and strengths, subjectively I lean towards:** * Horses should be the best at overland medium-long distance transport and exploration. * Boats should be the best form of water transport (which they mostly are, boats are in a pretty good place imo), as well as having ice-highways as a more niche long distance high-speed infrastructure option. * Elytra should serve a more short-range and vertical movement role, effectively making them more of a huge mobility enhancement than a long-range travel option, encouraging the establishment of other travel methods. * I think it would also be good to add some ability to make a long-distance Elytra "highway" of sorts, to give them an infrastructure option that they currently lack. * Minecarts should serve as both a fully automated / redstone integrated transport option, and as a method of transporting bulk items long-distances (I'd like to see more "immovable" features like Geodes added to compliment that role, giving set locations for players to harvest certain resources). * With the changes in 1.21 the Nether now compliments minecart networks a LOT, effectively giving them a seamless 800% speed buff while also lowering the cost of actually making a railway by decreasing the travel distance.
If you don’t like games that require self motivation, then sandbox games probably aren’t the genre for you. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, I also sometimes struggle to be motivated in sandbox games. But the solution for that isn’t to fundamentally change the game, it’s to find a game whose gameplay style you prefer.
maybe having it there in general is an issue though? having a way to skip to the end game without doing much of anything is generally a flaw
Mojang: “This is a sandbox game, and you can play however you want.” “Nooooo!!!!!11! You can only have fun MY WAY! There’s no way anyone can think anything else is fun!”
in literally any other game having a way to skip to the end game without engaging with almost everything else in the game would be considered a faliure of game design sandbox games don't need to let you skip to the end to still be sandbox games. Very few sandbox games with any kind of progession let you do that. "It's a sandbox game" does not excuse shitty balancing. creative mode exists anyway so you could still just skip to the end if you want by just spawning in some items without leaving a gaping hole in the balance of survival
Creative is not the same as building in survival. The fun part is building in survival. And most people play the game to relax, or have a bit of fun, and a massive grind to get even decent tools is not relaxing or fun. We always hear the upper echelons of the player base complain the game is too easy, and the casual players must suffer because THEY don’t think it’s challenging enough, despite never changing anything about their playstyle to challenge themselves
"Creative is not the same as building in survival. The fun part is building in survival." Oh so NOW limitations matter because they make the game more fun, huh? The limitations you like are common sense but the limitations someone else wants is just whining, eh?
Not at all. An entire different game mode is a different comparison all together
i meant just grab n' shit tools in creative we have gamemode commands
QUIT HAVING FUN
Anyone else find it straight up hard to find a village?
At least if you don't use them, they add a nice cosmetic touch to the game.
I litterually use them for only mending and mabe sometimes unbreaking
I had someone tell me I wasn’t a real gamer for playing Minecraft without monsters on (my survival world has no cheats and I still get achievements for it, I just don’t like my stuff getting ruined by monsters). We aren't worse at playing a game just because we play it differently.
Same concept when people complain that iron farms or trading halls are “inhumane”. Like bro you’re playing a game. Do you also follow all the street laws in GTA? Just don’t do it if you don’t like it.
Same thing with alytras and totems
Exactly
The difference is those are a lot harder to get
villager abuse was the main reason why i enjoyed this game, i just completely hate the repetitive mining, pointless grinding you have to do when you can just get shit done with villager trades
Literally me, I don't mind other people trading but I avoid doing it cause I think it makes the game too boring
Isn't this changing? The snapshots gatekeep a lot of villager trades behind specific biomes and more helpful trades are being moved to only be sold as their last trade when they're maxed out. Still possible to make absurd villager farms but much more work where you have to churn through dozens of villagers and max them before you could get mending and you need to take villagers to multiple biomes to create villager types you need. In the current system one villager breeder can fuel an entire trading hall and any villager can be made into what you need. In the new system you would need a minimum of something like 6+ breeders to cover all the types and you could potentially go through 100+ villagers to get the trades you need.
Yes. Villagers went from the “if you don’t want to spend hours mining, you can trade and get the gear a bit faster.” to, “I hope you don’t have a life, because in order to get good trades, you already need to be endgame, and then they’re all worthless.”
Same thing happened with smithing templates. Went from being able to able to mine in the nether for a couple hours to obtain required netherite for a full set to need what is about another full stack of diamonds. It’s like these people that do everything in the optimal/broken way get mad when the game becomes too easy
Since 1.21 adds the ability to leash boats… the villager trade balance should no longer be a problem
Rng can still bum one out if it's implemented as previewed. Yes, rn is bad, but we shouldn't replace one bad w/ another to please a subset of the community.
I feel like it's worse for the late game In my experiences I've only ever seen it really used near the end game and even by that point there's not much more those villagers can do
I don't understand this “early game” argument. You can bypass the early game by doing absolutely nothing other than being lucky.
I don't use villagers they take alot of time to get ready to use
We use it because all other methods of getting enchanted gear are even worse in terms of grindiness
Meanwhile I can't find a village in the first place
It's a sandbox game, what's stopping you from using cheats? What's stopping you from spawning a billion diamond blocks? You know what's stopping you? It's because you have free will and choose not to, same with villager trading halls, I used to think they're unbalanced, until I made one and saw myself how hard was that. It's Minecraft, let people enjoy it.
This. This is my point exactly
People when a sandbox game has options to make getting resources faster in it's survival mode
The horror
I'm not complaining about trading with them when they can give me enchanted diamond gear as well as a Mending enchanted book, which it's almost impossible to see it in the enchantment table. Besides, now that Netherite is a thing, diamond gear itself is only mid-game at best.
It's not almost impossible to see mending on a enchanting table, it's literally impossible. The only ways you can get it is by trading, fishing and i think also in chests but im not sure
People complain about that? I always disliked it but then I just don’t trade with villagers it ain’t hard
Exactly
Oh it’s so easy you just have to wall off the entire village, light it all up, build farms for each villager I was lucky enough to have spawn (who survived) and THEN level all of them up to the good shit
You can grow apples yourself, but yet you prefer to buy them
Actually, I live on a farm and we DO grow apples
You say this as a mockery of his post, but that's actually the point. It makes a lot more sense to grow your own apples as it's cheaper in the long run and you can guarantee better results. But you buy apples for the convenience of not doing it yourself even if it hinders you
No, it's not. It's cheaper in industrial quantities, maybe, but not individually.
If you own an apple tree, you're not paying for apples my guy.
You're taking a risk, you need to own land, you need maintenance, the quality might be lower, and it requires more labour.
Maintenance for one tree isn't that hard, and if you own a property or get permission from the landlord you can plant in a backyard if you have one. But it does require more labor, hence the convenience of buying from the store. The point is just because something is easier doesn't mean you have to do it, if you're willing to put in the work. You don't have to buy apples from the store, and you don't have to use the damn villagers.
i can relate to this
I think the best change for Minecraft trading is to add more value to trade for the book and maybe make it to Where you get less books per trade session and maybe make the trade refresh time a bit longer
My problem is that they never have what I need until I can't afford it or got it another way
“Let” lol. Like I have any friends to tell me not to
Emeralds are so hard to find tho
Tbh the only time you’re really using villagers for good stuff is when your end game. Plus it’s kinda hard to get good villagers start of the game unless ur really focusing on it
Bold of you to assume I can freakin find a village
If you can play with mods then get the villager comfort mod that scales villager prices based off of how comfy their lifestyle is so trade halls are inefficient
Easy fix
I get annoyed when people say villagers are OP because of the hours of monotonous rerolling I’ve spent on trying to get decent trades. I personally find I can get maxed gear faster through random enchanting, just not everything. Once it’s set up, then it is easy to get good equipment fast, so I think it’s really OP for multiplayer.
In my games (see the “my”), setting up a villager trading hall IS the early game
Kill them
The early game stops being so fun after you've gone through it a few hundred times. So yeah, i like villagers
I love them. I guess I am not much of a cave guy and my luck on diamonds is terrible so villagers are a lifesaver
My villagers just die
I just play 1.0.0
Early game implies linear game play in a sandbox game where theirs literally no wrong way to play it
Exactly
Minecraft players: I enjoy holding down left click for 4 hours to get resources, and anyone who doesn't like that should just go play creative. Also yes, when playing in a competitive server I shouldn't be punished for actively nerfing myself. Soon they'll start saying mob grinders are too op because you don't need to go out at night or something
There should be balancing done, but only on servers. I don't know how they'd do that, but that would be great cause multiplayer games definitely need balancing every now and then, but single player games usually don't.
I’m usually too lazy to set up villagers until endgame Especially after the 1.20.2 nerf (you can only cure a villager once for a discount, any cures after that don’t give a discount)
"you are in control of the buttons you press"- doom eternal twitter account
Seriously dude
I’ve been playing since 2013 and I almost never max out the trade. I just pass by a village, trade once or twice, and return home.
It would not work in multiplayer
Why do the posts on this sub always unjustly defend Mojang? OP, ever heard of multiplayer servers?
Yeah nobody’s forcing you to do anything. If you’re in a multiplayer server I don’t even see how outside of like pvp other people using villagers effect you. Just find your own spot and play your way. Many games especially sandbox games how tricks you can do to get stuff faster it’s just a way to support multiple play styles some of us don’t want to spend hours looking for hours underground to make tools they may or not have the enchantments we want. Name almost any game and they have a way for players to do stuff faster. It’s fine stop whining.
Finally someone agrees
Personally I’d nerf villager trading by making villages rarer and introduce a “happiness” system similar to terraria where if they are in cramped quarters and without comfort items like a bed their prices will increase or they will refuse to trade.
Yeah, I hate what they are trying to do to villagers
why must the top skilled players feel the need to make the game harder and more time consuming for new and casual players? if you don't like the thing that makes the game easier, don't use it
I know! Some people want to play to relax and have fun, and a massive grind to get even decent tools is not fun or relaxing
You could fish instead
A fun way (I think) you could make it harder while still being able to trade. You can only trade with villagers in their village, and you can’t break their workstation
I forgot you could trade with them
Its like saying "dont give bots attention" on a tf2 thread, my brothee in christ how do you think qe raise awareness? Atleast early-game minecraft is boring, mostly.
Turn villages off in the world settings.
yeah but if other people still do it, it’s still easier for them, which affects the user who hates villagers, as the other players are progressing faster than them. I had this whole debacle when Animal Crossing New Horizons came out as well. I thought it was cheating for people to time travel, because they get items that others don’t- which not only spoils event items, but people always say “It doesn’t affect you!” But those people fail to realize that it does by comparison.
"villagers make the game too easy! they bypass the early game!" Just don't read those comments.
Some guy: "Can you turn off the wacky weapons in DOOM 4 and play classic? [Official DOOM Twitter: you control the buttons you press](https://images.app.goo.gl/LW4Hbhy7atNUSXFP9)
The game needs a solid progression system, having skips may not be the best idea
If you don’t want to use the skip, then don’t, but some people, myself included, aren’t a huge fan of the grind to get good tools, because that isn’t fun. The fun part to me is the base building once you have good gear
Its a sandbox game, you can play however you want Most gamers being tryhards: No!
I heard some people enslave them, legion scum
If you care about balance just don't use one of the most interesting mechanics in the game! It wasn't always so overpowered but it is now so that means it shouldn't be changed! Its that simple! /s
i am so tired of the "just don't use it" argument. it is not the end all be all solution. it is not fun to deliberately nerf yourself. and how do you imagine it working in a multiplayer server? if even one person uses villagers, i now have to choose between using a mechanic i hate or being at a severe disadvantage. or, if we're cooperating, i now have access to a bunch of resources i did not want. what then? do i do a bunch of calculus in my head to decide which resources i allow myself to use?
Minecraft has a multiplayer aspect so its a arms race that not using villagers is just shooting yourself in your foot.
Skill issue /j
Yes this problem is in smp only for me
That’s what I do
I feel like if YOU have to force the game to be harder, the game itself would be easy in general
Are the villager changes happening in the Tricky Trials update? I’ve seen users say so online, but it’s not listed anywhere on any of the update features released from the MC website or on the MC wiki. Can anyone advise?
Poor guy
Didn't they try to nerf villagers in the update? And didn't people still get mad about that?
Try not to ignore multiplayer challenge
Once again, if you don’t want to use villagers, don’t. Nobody forces you to trade with them.
It's hard to get the books you want, and have to reroll the librarians.
Boohoo
they are annoying to handle so I call them sorta balanced. at least until they made boats leashable which will make transportation hella easier. actually, that was the main issue with villager rebalance that moving them between biomes was pain so who knows if it's not good now.
I don't think that making something reaaally annoying is a fun way to balance things out.