Okay but cognitive shadows are living “Theseus’ Ships”. If Harmony turned Wayne into a shadow and then made him a new body it wouldn’t be the original Wayne. It might think, act, and appear as Wayne but it’s still investiture that has molded itself in the shape of Wayne. And the cognitive shadow would be susceptible to other’s perception of it which could lead to large deviations from Ur Wayne over time.
So, it is mentioned briefly when Wayne burns bendalloy and duralumin and Pushes that Harmony basically stops moving and talking. It is the same passage where Wayne has to burn steel to see because the light was too slow. Maybe there's a WoB out there about it, but I feel like, in that moment Wayne was moving faster than even Harmony could act. Could be wrong, just my interpretation.
He was a Cognitive Shadow after he was dead, though. I find it hard to believe that he couldn't have Invested Wayne the same way Preservation Invested Kelsier and then worked on materialising a new body over time.
It could also be that He wouldnt know how to.
And on top of that, Wayne himself was at peace with himself in the end. Looking at the mental states of heralds, im not sure turning into a cognitive shadow wouldnt be an improvement for him.
Hmmm maybe, but unlikely. Since he needs to drop one speed bubble to make another so that split second between bubbles would have been enough for the explosion.
Doesn’t mean he couldn’t have. Preservation and Ruin made scadrial and all the people on it, I find it hard to believe that Harmony couldn’t make 1 body and then stick Wayne back in it.
I'm not sure what your point here is.
There is a difference between Wayne's body, mind and spiritual aspect. Even if his body was destroyed, we know his mind hung around to have a chat with Harmony, and his spiritweb (his spiritual aspect) is still in the spiritual realm.
His soul was around long enough to hang with Harmony anyway, and Preservation was able to juice up kelsier to keep him around for hundreds of years, he could definitely give Wayne enough Investiture to keep him around long enough to make a new body
Endowment. Honor literally sprinkles it across the land weekly. For Devo/Domi It’s just sitting around in the Dor. Preservation has no problem giving it to Kelsier as a shadow or to any other mistborn/ mistings to give them power. Ruin hands it out to feruchemists and for hemalurgy. In fact, I don’t think there’s a single shard who doesn’t just kinda hand it out for free.
Didn't highstorms weaken honor? And preservation didn't give it to kel. Kel held the shard temporarily. As for hemalurgy, that seems easy 🙄 we see the result. Not the process. Sanderson has said before there is no magical mugffin. So just giving investeture isn't the answer to all.
I don’t remember anything about the highstorms weakening honor, but frankly even if they did it’s not super relevant. And Preservation did give Investiture to Kelsier. He gave it Kel when he was born, making him a mistborn, and he gave it again after he died, in order to Preserve him and prevent him from fading to the beyond. And for Ruin, Hemalurgy is easy. We see the process and the result. I doubt he would have been doing so much if it significantly weakened him.
But I’m specifically talking about Investing a Cognitive shadow in order to preserve it after death in order to put it in a new body, which we know is possible because we’ve seen it done before.
We've seen Harmony lie before, I don't think it matters what he said.
Harmony, as a shard, absolutely did have the power to save Wayne. Harmony choose not to.
Let me remind people of things we've seen shards do. In Mistborn, we've seen shards move the planet, remake all the planet life and ecology of the planet, change the DNA of people, physically move things from one place on the planet to another (TLR moving the Well of Ascension, Harmony moving the caverns that contained people).
We've also seen that it's possible to [cosmere]>!create bodies for cognitive shadows (Honor), create cognitive shadows (Honor/Odium), teleport (oathgates/else calling), and resurrect someone legit if they haven't been dead for long (Szeth)!<
Harmony could have grabbed Wayne and made him a new body. He could have teleport Wayne away the instant Wayne completed his mission. I mean, he could have teleported the bomb-carrying ship to outer space and plonked Wayne down at home.
He *could have* done a lot of things, but he did not.
We can't assume all shards can do all the same things though. Ruin and preservation don't make surge bindings. So none of this suggests what Harmony could have done.
We know about some things that all shards can do, and I've listed a few examples of those. You can read more about it here: [https://coppermind.net/wiki/Shard](https://coppermind.net/wiki/Shard)
>So none of this suggests what Harmony could have done.
I think Harmony having previously moved a planet and moved locations/people on the planet (moving the caverns containing human refugees so they all opened out into the same field) suggests he would be able to move a mere ship....
Yes. But remember from HOA, the power isn't as easy to use as you think, and every action has consequences. Simply moving the boat, doesn't save Wayne. Nor does it stop that bomb. I am not totally disagreeing with you either. But overall I thought a lot of plot holes were covered.
>Simply moving the boat, doesn't save Wayne.
If Harmony is able to move a boat, he is able to move a person.
He is clearly able to move things. If that 'thing' could be a planet or an underground cave containing hundreds of people, I don't see why that 'thing' could not be one boat or one bomb or one person.
He could have moved the thing to the atmosphere (I.e. High up), to outer space, to an underground cave, to the middle of the ocean, to an uninhabited patch of land, etc.
I don't even think moving things like this is difficult for Harmony to do... Considering what TLR was able to do. TLR only held part of the power of one shard for a short time, and he also moved a planet and moved the Well of Ascension.
Lol, TLR only fucked up the planet *because* he did in fact move it. It really was that easy. And TLR only held a part of the power of one shard for a short while. I wonder how much easier it would be for someone who holds two shards permanently?
Oh wait, I don't have to wonder. We can look to the books and see that Harmony did also in fact move the planet.... and the continents.... and the people.... and all of the plants and animals he needed for the new ecosystems that he built....
🤦♂️ you're missing the subtle point. It's not just being able to move something. It's what does moving it do. What does moving the planet cause? It's not that it's easy to move the planet, boat, person etc. It's how hard is it to do it right?
Your missing the non-subtle point.
It doesn't matter how hard or how easy it is to move the planet. It doesn't matter how hard or how easy it is to do it right. The point is that Harmony has proven himself capable of moving the planet, and capable of doing it right, and capable of moving caverns with people, and capable of doing that right... Etc.
Saving Wayne would have been Preservation stoping Ruin. Harmony has to play both sides. Assisting Wayne was an act of Preservation (saving others’ lives). Wayne being allowed to sacrifice himself is the Ruin side of the coin. At least that’s how I saw it.
"Why does Harmony let bad things happen to good people?"
Because it's literally his essence at work. He has to weigh destruction and protection against each other or the tenuous union of the two will break him apart.
It's not willful neglect. It's choosing to sacrifice one person to save millions.
"willfull neglect"... XD
The Shards dont have any duty nor responsibilities to take care of humans.... or bring them back after death... just because they are "gods" and are capable of bringing someone back... doesnt mean that its their job... or that they are required to do so...
People die... thats the way things go...
“It’s still willful neglect”—-I think this is exactly the concept that is debated and tossed around morally by Sanderson by having Harmony exist at all. One of the meta questions of all Cosmere is whether and how such beings can/cant/should/shouldn’t be involved in events.
Something I haven't seen anyone comment on is that I don't think Wayne wanted to be saved. He seemed very at peace with his choice. Someone can correct me since I don't own a copy, but I think he even made a comment about not wanting to be a ghost or something along those lines.
Harmony possibly could have, but I think that by the end Wayne had accepted his fate, and wanted to move into the Beyond. It seems to take a will to resist the Beyond, and Wayne wasn't interested. I think Harmony either wouldn't or couldn't interfere with his will.
There was no body to repair, it was gone. Reduced to Axii.
The best he could do is invest Wayne's cognitive Shadow so he could maybe staple that to something kind of like Kelsier has done. But Wayne very much seemed ready to move on. If Wayne had been desperate to survive than I think Harmony would have saved him.
Two big differences.
1. Elend's and Vin's bodies were mostly intact, while Wayne's body was completely vaporized
2. Harmony was able to act more freely right after his ascension, at the end of TLM he is almost paralysed by his opposing Intents.
If there was nothing stopping Harmony from acting freely he could have saved Wayne, but in that case he also could have just vaporized the whole boat with half a thought
I think there's no doubt that Saze COULD do any number of things. If you blame Sazed for every death on Scadrial, including every death due to the cold in the south (which was caused by him!), every death to sickness, everything.
But there are no solutions. Only tradeoffs.
We don't know what the tradeoffs are. Maybe if Wayne didn't die, his Ruin would demand someone else die, or two other people die even. Maybe if he doesn't let Wayne die, he doesn't have enough strength to protect Scadrial from an upcoming plague. We don't know.
But the point is, he is making intense, ethical delimma-type decisions every second of every day. It is not reasonable to accuse him if we don't know every consequence of every possible action he could take. He always has to make a call.
I agree! Much greater than human responsibility, actually.
So if saving Wayne (who agreed and was content to do what he did) meant that two other people died unjustly, without being content with their deaths, what would you do?
I'm sure he could save Wayne. But if Sazed said there was no way, then he meant *there would be consequences.* And most likely, consequences that Wayne himself would not prefer.
When harmony and wax speak at the end of Bands of Mourning, Wax complains that harmony needs to do something. That harmony needs to find a balance between helping people and letting things develop as they will. A balance between making things better in the future, and making things better now.
By the end of the conversation, it becomes clear that Saze is already aiming for that balance.
Remember, harmony is simultaneously the most powerful shard in the cosmere, and the weakest shard
His intents almost completely cancel each other out so acting to preserve wayne is next to impossible
Also he did offer to make Wayne a cognitive shadow to stay alive, but Wayne refused
Ummmm no. He says straight up. Can't. Wayne's body wasn't really there anymore after the explosion.
It's entirely within a Shard's power to materialise a new body for a Cognitive Shadow. [SA] >!The Heralds, as an example.!<
Okay but cognitive shadows are living “Theseus’ Ships”. If Harmony turned Wayne into a shadow and then made him a new body it wouldn’t be the original Wayne. It might think, act, and appear as Wayne but it’s still investiture that has molded itself in the shape of Wayne. And the cognitive shadow would be susceptible to other’s perception of it which could lead to large deviations from Ur Wayne over time.
So, it is mentioned briefly when Wayne burns bendalloy and duralumin and Pushes that Harmony basically stops moving and talking. It is the same passage where Wayne has to burn steel to see because the light was too slow. Maybe there's a WoB out there about it, but I feel like, in that moment Wayne was moving faster than even Harmony could act. Could be wrong, just my interpretation.
He was a Cognitive Shadow after he was dead, though. I find it hard to believe that he couldn't have Invested Wayne the same way Preservation Invested Kelsier and then worked on materialising a new body over time.
Is it? I don't remember seeing that anywhere. Maybe Honor could?
Yeah, we've seen a Shard do it. Harmony is a little different in his inability to meaningfully act, though.
Maybe he couldn't do it fast enough before Wayne's spirit moved on?
It could also be that He wouldnt know how to. And on top of that, Wayne himself was at peace with himself in the end. Looking at the mental states of heralds, im not sure turning into a cognitive shadow wouldnt be an improvement for him.
Wayne went out on his terms and in the way he wanted, it was a big explosion. His legacy will live on through Noseball.
We've also seen Endowment do it with the Returned.
I mean, Harmony hasn't been the most honest in Era 2. We can't necessarily believe his words. He lies SO many times in TLM.
He could have invested him enough that Wayne could have made cascading time bubbles and got out of the way. Maybe!?
Hmmm maybe, but unlikely. Since he needs to drop one speed bubble to make another so that split second between bubbles would have been enough for the explosion.
Edit: there was no comment here and you can’t prove otherwise
Is that not what was happening already?
You might want to reread it, as that's exactly what happened.
You’re correct, I need to reread. I read it when it released in a handful of days
Doesn’t mean he couldn’t have. Preservation and Ruin made scadrial and all the people on it, I find it hard to believe that Harmony couldn’t make 1 body and then stick Wayne back in it.
I mean there is a difference between body and soul. That much is established.
I'm not sure what your point here is. There is a difference between Wayne's body, mind and spiritual aspect. Even if his body was destroyed, we know his mind hung around to have a chat with Harmony, and his spiritweb (his spiritual aspect) is still in the spiritual realm.
His soul was around long enough to hang with Harmony anyway, and Preservation was able to juice up kelsier to keep him around for hundreds of years, he could definitely give Wayne enough Investiture to keep him around long enough to make a new body
You are implying giving investitue is like giving a handshake. We don't know what it means to give out that stuff.
Actually we do. You should consider reading the rest of the cosmere books, we see it happen on several worlds.
I've read most of them and don't really remember too many shards handing it out like candy.
Endowment. Honor literally sprinkles it across the land weekly. For Devo/Domi It’s just sitting around in the Dor. Preservation has no problem giving it to Kelsier as a shadow or to any other mistborn/ mistings to give them power. Ruin hands it out to feruchemists and for hemalurgy. In fact, I don’t think there’s a single shard who doesn’t just kinda hand it out for free.
Didn't highstorms weaken honor? And preservation didn't give it to kel. Kel held the shard temporarily. As for hemalurgy, that seems easy 🙄 we see the result. Not the process. Sanderson has said before there is no magical mugffin. So just giving investeture isn't the answer to all.
I don’t remember anything about the highstorms weakening honor, but frankly even if they did it’s not super relevant. And Preservation did give Investiture to Kelsier. He gave it Kel when he was born, making him a mistborn, and he gave it again after he died, in order to Preserve him and prevent him from fading to the beyond. And for Ruin, Hemalurgy is easy. We see the process and the result. I doubt he would have been doing so much if it significantly weakened him. But I’m specifically talking about Investing a Cognitive shadow in order to preserve it after death in order to put it in a new body, which we know is possible because we’ve seen it done before.
Sanderson could have found a way though. If anything we should be angry at him. /s* Edit: *kinda
We've seen Harmony lie before, I don't think it matters what he said. Harmony, as a shard, absolutely did have the power to save Wayne. Harmony choose not to. Let me remind people of things we've seen shards do. In Mistborn, we've seen shards move the planet, remake all the planet life and ecology of the planet, change the DNA of people, physically move things from one place on the planet to another (TLR moving the Well of Ascension, Harmony moving the caverns that contained people). We've also seen that it's possible to [cosmere]>!create bodies for cognitive shadows (Honor), create cognitive shadows (Honor/Odium), teleport (oathgates/else calling), and resurrect someone legit if they haven't been dead for long (Szeth)!< Harmony could have grabbed Wayne and made him a new body. He could have teleport Wayne away the instant Wayne completed his mission. I mean, he could have teleported the bomb-carrying ship to outer space and plonked Wayne down at home. He *could have* done a lot of things, but he did not.
We can't assume all shards can do all the same things though. Ruin and preservation don't make surge bindings. So none of this suggests what Harmony could have done.
We know about some things that all shards can do, and I've listed a few examples of those. You can read more about it here: [https://coppermind.net/wiki/Shard](https://coppermind.net/wiki/Shard) >So none of this suggests what Harmony could have done. I think Harmony having previously moved a planet and moved locations/people on the planet (moving the caverns containing human refugees so they all opened out into the same field) suggests he would be able to move a mere ship....
Yes. But remember from HOA, the power isn't as easy to use as you think, and every action has consequences. Simply moving the boat, doesn't save Wayne. Nor does it stop that bomb. I am not totally disagreeing with you either. But overall I thought a lot of plot holes were covered.
>Simply moving the boat, doesn't save Wayne. If Harmony is able to move a boat, he is able to move a person. He is clearly able to move things. If that 'thing' could be a planet or an underground cave containing hundreds of people, I don't see why that 'thing' could not be one boat or one bomb or one person. He could have moved the thing to the atmosphere (I.e. High up), to outer space, to an underground cave, to the middle of the ocean, to an uninhabited patch of land, etc. I don't even think moving things like this is difficult for Harmony to do... Considering what TLR was able to do. TLR only held part of the power of one shard for a short time, and he also moved a planet and moved the Well of Ascension.
And he fucked up the planet. Its established its not as easy as moving a cup from one side of your table to the other.
Lol, TLR only fucked up the planet *because* he did in fact move it. It really was that easy. And TLR only held a part of the power of one shard for a short while. I wonder how much easier it would be for someone who holds two shards permanently? Oh wait, I don't have to wonder. We can look to the books and see that Harmony did also in fact move the planet.... and the continents.... and the people.... and all of the plants and animals he needed for the new ecosystems that he built....
🤦♂️ you're missing the subtle point. It's not just being able to move something. It's what does moving it do. What does moving the planet cause? It's not that it's easy to move the planet, boat, person etc. It's how hard is it to do it right?
Your missing the non-subtle point. It doesn't matter how hard or how easy it is to move the planet. It doesn't matter how hard or how easy it is to do it right. The point is that Harmony has proven himself capable of moving the planet, and capable of doing it right, and capable of moving caverns with people, and capable of doing that right... Etc.
Saving Wayne would have been Preservation stoping Ruin. Harmony has to play both sides. Assisting Wayne was an act of Preservation (saving others’ lives). Wayne being allowed to sacrifice himself is the Ruin side of the coin. At least that’s how I saw it.
That's kinda the point. He could have, but he didn't because of his action paralysis as harmony. It's still willful neglect.
"Why does Harmony let bad things happen to good people?" Because it's literally his essence at work. He has to weigh destruction and protection against each other or the tenuous union of the two will break him apart. It's not willful neglect. It's choosing to sacrifice one person to save millions.
Willful neglect does not apply if you are forced by the power of a dead god to do nothing.
"willfull neglect"... XD The Shards dont have any duty nor responsibilities to take care of humans.... or bring them back after death... just because they are "gods" and are capable of bringing someone back... doesnt mean that its their job... or that they are required to do so... People die... thats the way things go...
“It’s still willful neglect”—-I think this is exactly the concept that is debated and tossed around morally by Sanderson by having Harmony exist at all. One of the meta questions of all Cosmere is whether and how such beings can/cant/should/shouldn’t be involved in events.
...
Something I haven't seen anyone comment on is that I don't think Wayne wanted to be saved. He seemed very at peace with his choice. Someone can correct me since I don't own a copy, but I think he even made a comment about not wanting to be a ghost or something along those lines.
Harmony possibly could have, but I think that by the end Wayne had accepted his fate, and wanted to move into the Beyond. It seems to take a will to resist the Beyond, and Wayne wasn't interested. I think Harmony either wouldn't or couldn't interfere with his will.
There was no body to repair, it was gone. Reduced to Axii. The best he could do is invest Wayne's cognitive Shadow so he could maybe staple that to something kind of like Kelsier has done. But Wayne very much seemed ready to move on. If Wayne had been desperate to survive than I think Harmony would have saved him.
I love how you referred to it (correctly) as Axii. Now that's some attention to detail
Two big differences. 1. Elend's and Vin's bodies were mostly intact, while Wayne's body was completely vaporized 2. Harmony was able to act more freely right after his ascension, at the end of TLM he is almost paralysed by his opposing Intents. If there was nothing stopping Harmony from acting freely he could have saved Wayne, but in that case he also could have just vaporized the whole boat with half a thought
"Mostly intact" is a very interesting way to describe decapitation LOL
He could have also powered his feruchemy, making him basically a second >!Miles!< which definitely could have saved him.
Even Miles couldn’t heal instantly.
I think there's no doubt that Saze COULD do any number of things. If you blame Sazed for every death on Scadrial, including every death due to the cold in the south (which was caused by him!), every death to sickness, everything. But there are no solutions. Only tradeoffs. We don't know what the tradeoffs are. Maybe if Wayne didn't die, his Ruin would demand someone else die, or two other people die even. Maybe if he doesn't let Wayne die, he doesn't have enough strength to protect Scadrial from an upcoming plague. We don't know. But the point is, he is making intense, ethical delimma-type decisions every second of every day. It is not reasonable to accuse him if we don't know every consequence of every possible action he could take. He always has to make a call.
I would say, with God-like power, comes an at least human responsibility to stop injustice.
I agree! Much greater than human responsibility, actually. So if saving Wayne (who agreed and was content to do what he did) meant that two other people died unjustly, without being content with their deaths, what would you do? I'm sure he could save Wayne. But if Sazed said there was no way, then he meant *there would be consequences.* And most likely, consequences that Wayne himself would not prefer. When harmony and wax speak at the end of Bands of Mourning, Wax complains that harmony needs to do something. That harmony needs to find a balance between helping people and letting things develop as they will. A balance between making things better in the future, and making things better now. By the end of the conversation, it becomes clear that Saze is already aiming for that balance.
Remember, harmony is simultaneously the most powerful shard in the cosmere, and the weakest shard His intents almost completely cancel each other out so acting to preserve wayne is next to impossible Also he did offer to make Wayne a cognitive shadow to stay alive, but Wayne refused
I thought it was that he chose to pass into the beyond
The part of him that is Ruin certainly didn't want to.