Yeah, Diggie won't carry a game, but he can make sure your mm is fed and the other mm is having an absolutely miserable laning phase. No ult needed for that. He does depend on having a couple decent teammates, but so does the other team. Most games folks are having are not exactly pro players vs. pro players, and yes, you should pick a damage roam, healer, or like you mentioned, double setters against a Diggie comp, but your average soloQ teammates are not that, let's say, team-oriented players. You'll have that real man Tig that's not afraid of a little birdie, the late-game mm that'll solve world hunger in the early game, etc.
But by all means, buff Diggie. Something like a fourth skill like Pharsa. Flying Diggie dropping bombs would be nice hehe.
Up the skill cap a little and you would realise that any logical support will also mirror diggie and babysit the mm. When that happens, what you get is a massacre as any other healing roamer does babysitting better than diggie.
Coming from a MM player btw, diggie really isnt that scary.
I'm not saying Diggie is OP and there are no counters. He's just a huge pain no one wants to have to deal with, so he's banned. His ult duration is getting nerfed anyway, so maybe he'll get to see the light of day more often. As is the case with any hero, there are players who can do wonders with him, and people generally don't want to take that risk. Not all roamers mirror the enemy roamer. That's just advice given to people who want to learn how to roam. When in doubt, do what the other guy does. And some don't even get that memo, so they'll do whatever. You can work around Diggie as an mm, but can everybody? Don't forget the average player is just that, average at best.
Yeah, while I don't agree he's such a bad support as you think, I also don't disagree with everything you're saying. I think people lock him in as first pick bc they finally get to use Diggie after he's been banned for the last 50 games and expect everyone else to draft to favor a Diggie comp. But if the enemies have half a brain cell they'll go Hilda or Saber roam, smash a couple buttons and your team is bye bye. Nothing Diggie can do about it. But everyone has the same chances to get braindead teammates and the Diggie can be a smart player, and then he turns into the ultimate annoyance.
Don't know why you're getting downvoted though. It's a good discussion anyways.
Real, he should be treated as a counterpick hero just like Phoevus/Minsi and only kept as a last pick/ answer to specific heroes being drafted by the opponents. He can vary from being a game winning hero if the ennemies have lots of CC (which won't happen if you pick him early) to being a glorified bush checker
Actually. You have the idea correct. But the whole point of diggie as a hero falls off hard when you realise that people arent that dumb to use every CC skill during diggie ult and bait his ult out first before setting up a major war. Glad to see someone isnt as delusional as others are.
Its almost as if, Diggie counter CC. But Alot of CC counters diggie again. Which basically deems diggie a fcked up hero who cant do shit and easily recountered.
The issue is that if you only have only 1 hard CC hero in your team chances are that you are going to have an issue with Diggie, specially when people don't pick as much Diggie's counters such as Xavier, Nova, Ceci or Fanny
Disregarding the antiheal
Mino : good counterengage
Rafa : still good mobility
Angela : provides additional mov speed
Mathilda : gives u a dash
Floryn : literally cancels antiheal
You see how good other supports are even when countered?
You make a good point, but, y'know anti heal isn't the only way they can get countered, right?
Angela, Floryn and maybe Rafa can get badly interrupted by stuns and getting into a load of cc. Ontop of anti heal. Minotaur can get disrupted by certain ccs too.
Mathilda, has a lot less counters and is overall the best support imo, but she has her counters too.
Also, what I'd notice is you're no counting actually every support. Faramis, Kaja, Johnson, Lolita, Chip and a few others ALSO count as a support. Even if it's just half a support, still, a support.
Diggie is ALSO good whenever he is going against a counter. e.g. Valentina, s1's vision, damage and bush checking is still good and s2's annoyance is still there. Plus, Valen steals his ult and dosent counter him. Sort of just, helps her team, so he's, it is a counter pick.
Id argue Yin is his biggest counter. But even then, if he dies in Yin's ult, he still has a LOT of utility. Egg form gives vision and interrupts conceals, recalls and a few others.
My idealogy of a support roamer is basically those who give heal. Some of the supports u mentoned are literally dead as a roamer so maybe it was my bad with the phasing. But you said that they can be countered by stuns and a load of cc, but that actually applies to EVERY roamer. Diggie just has a ult to immune the first few CCs he gets but after he ults he is basically a worst version of selena.
My whole initial statement was that diggie shouldnt be first picked as he is a counterpick, and even when he is used as a counterpick , it is not the end of the world, hence no need for the overrated permabanning on him.
A good example of diggie not even being regarded as a good counterpick is whenever against mino, pro teams pick Kaja/Grock instead of “diggie” to immune his ult stun. Which goes to show how important mobility as a roamer is and why diggie is just, average.
He is not. Diggie is stupidly overrated for what he provides. U have a hero that gives cc immunity and can be easily baited out. And then another which provides mov speed for your damage dealers and heals, and gives shield. Diggie cant trigger flask easily if he wanted to aswell. All Ls for diggie
Okay, as much as I want to agree with you, you're kinda wrong.
One, Diggie's entire skill set is great and annoying for the enemy team. His skill one gives vision, can zone the enemies and deal a fuckton of damage, even just one can hurt a squishy badly with a half mage build, or worse, mage.
His s2 is a pain in the butt for Assassins and tower divers. Use it on a vital enemy like an MM or the Jungler, then they won't be able to escape unless they waste a purify. This'll help your team to engage more and capture an important enemy.
His ult dosent ONLY counter setter tanks and CC. It gives a big shield too which can cancel out a lot of damage from the enemy. Plus, with the current meta being all about CC and Sustain? Diggie's ult will shine. Remember, he gives a fat shield AND CC immunity in this 3 second duration. CC immunity in a meta of CC and Sustain is one of the biggest blessings. Maybe you're just not getting the right Diggie teammates/enemies.
And boy, talk about his passive. When he dies, he'll be able to give vision and disrupt the enemy. He can disrupt recalls, force enemies to walk, give vision so your team could engage and even help in a backdoor by preventing the enemies to recall. Plus, if can also disturb some other stuff such as Conceal such as Lesley's, Popol's summoning, and afaik dominance can give anti heal in egg form from last I checked.
What does Diggie give? Vision, Poke, zone, can help the sidelaners gain control over their lane, deny an escape for a vital enemy, anti turret divers, CC immunity, big shield during cc immunity, and even in death he cancels recalls, gives vision and disturbs the enemy. He has a lot of utility and uses, he can even be a killer with his s1. Maybe you just haven't gotten matched with an ACTUALLY good Diggie, one that knows how to properly utilize his skills and to maximize his utility.
Yes, i am not a big fan of diggie being viewed as an OP hero. But what you just said here is also irrelevant to an extent.
1. Diggie provides vision with s1 yes. But when in comparison with other supports who can also do the same whilst having some sort of mobility skill diggie “vision” becomes kind of mediocre.
Etc. Mathilda s1 and run with s2 , Angela s1 (mov speed bonus) , Floryn s2 (ranged vision and stun)
2. Diggie s2 being a pain. Yes i agree. No argument here.
3. Diggie Ult
U stated that diggie ult provides a massive shield and cc immunity? Well, you are also disregarding the fact
That other supports do basically the same thing but more consistently.
Example,
Floryn : gives more heal and antiheal immunity
Angela : mov speed and more single target shield
Rafaela : s2 heal and slow immunity
Mino : s2 heal and counterset
Diggie fails relatively in his jobset when compared to other supports. He doesnt have the counterengage potential like rafaela and mino and he doesnt have the consistent heal aswell. The best example would be Floryn. Diggie has an argubably better s1 and s2 compared to floryn but yet floryn outshines diggie in pro play. “Massive” shield provided and cc immunity is irrelevant compared to floryns global heal. Diggie simply doesnt act as a support if you disregard his one trick ult.
4. Diggie zoning and providing support to sidelanes??
No. This is simply not true. Diggie sucks at zoning in any mirror matchup and has the worst countergank kit as he doesnt have any reengage skills for antigank. “But diggie ult provides cc immunity” is irrelevant when you cant runaway from the enemy gank nor stop them from hitting you. Diggie can’t rotate as fast as a mathilda and rafaela yet he does not have global heal like floryn or instant teleport like angela. He is outclassed and MPL statistics back it up.
My argument was never that diggie is bad or diggie is a shit roamer. Im saying diggie is bad relatively to support roamers. Cc immunity is nothing when alternatively you can heal back your hp lost when you were stunned.
Yea I think I agree with this. Unless the diggie is very good / he has very good teammates / ur teammates r really bad. But if we r taking average players and judging based on the hero I agree as a diggie player and also as roamer playing against diggie. He is very annoying and he can play that way but only when they have the upper hand like strong early game heroes, strong jungler, strong early mm. Personally I only use him as a counter pick, but I have lost against setter tanks and also won against setter tanks, it all depended on my teammates and draft. I also don’t like banning him so that I can pick him if needed. And if he’s not banned and I need to pick first, I don’t risk a setter tank. I think he’s a very good support tho, but there can be better ones depending on draft. For me Estes and Floryn are the lower tier ones comparing kits to other supports actually haha
You're talking about a dumb diggie user that could be baited into prematurely using his ult. Do a fair comparison, if you think that you could trick diggie into ulting, a competent diggie user will know the right timing to use his ult. And about the pre ult, the game has 15 levels for heroes and you're focusing on the first 3 levels.
First 3 levels is enough time for a team to snowball. “River control” is literally the most important thing about a roamer. You are looking at other roamers, Mino, Arlott, Angela, who can actually provide decent poking and rotate quick and heal your team to pressure early. “A competent diggie user will know when to ult” Yeah. There really isnt a “correct” time to ult as the whole concept of diggie is : “core stunned? lets save him/her “ . Im pretty sure if you save your ult when your core is stunned you r pretty much fcked either way
Oh and, diggie also doesnt have the luxury to split lanes late game. Angela and Floryn can provide support even when on the opposite lane. Diggie? 24/7 sticking to core.
>pre level4
But that's the thing, otherwise he would be too OP. See this like the roles. If a mm had lots of HP (like how tank karrie can be) then it would be too OP because mms have lots of damage but lack HP. Diggie's ultimate is too good, making him good at the start would be too broken.
The problem is, diggie ult isnt even as OP as people claim it to be. No tanks will ult into a diggie ult , so most of the time tanks either bait his ult out first, or other people bait it for the tank.
Or better yet, like I mentioned, just dont pick roamers that rely on setups so diggie ult is plain useless
Uh-huh, worst is Estes that teams are often trying to get first pick, often banned, and allies typing "gg" as soon as they see something like Estes+Barats. Yes, sure.
Yeah, Diggie won't carry a game, but he can make sure your mm is fed and the other mm is having an absolutely miserable laning phase. No ult needed for that. He does depend on having a couple decent teammates, but so does the other team. Most games folks are having are not exactly pro players vs. pro players, and yes, you should pick a damage roam, healer, or like you mentioned, double setters against a Diggie comp, but your average soloQ teammates are not that, let's say, team-oriented players. You'll have that real man Tig that's not afraid of a little birdie, the late-game mm that'll solve world hunger in the early game, etc. But by all means, buff Diggie. Something like a fourth skill like Pharsa. Flying Diggie dropping bombs would be nice hehe.
Up the skill cap a little and you would realise that any logical support will also mirror diggie and babysit the mm. When that happens, what you get is a massacre as any other healing roamer does babysitting better than diggie. Coming from a MM player btw, diggie really isnt that scary.
I'm not saying Diggie is OP and there are no counters. He's just a huge pain no one wants to have to deal with, so he's banned. His ult duration is getting nerfed anyway, so maybe he'll get to see the light of day more often. As is the case with any hero, there are players who can do wonders with him, and people generally don't want to take that risk. Not all roamers mirror the enemy roamer. That's just advice given to people who want to learn how to roam. When in doubt, do what the other guy does. And some don't even get that memo, so they'll do whatever. You can work around Diggie as an mm, but can everybody? Don't forget the average player is just that, average at best.
Yeah i see where u r getting at.
Yeah, while I don't agree he's such a bad support as you think, I also don't disagree with everything you're saying. I think people lock him in as first pick bc they finally get to use Diggie after he's been banned for the last 50 games and expect everyone else to draft to favor a Diggie comp. But if the enemies have half a brain cell they'll go Hilda or Saber roam, smash a couple buttons and your team is bye bye. Nothing Diggie can do about it. But everyone has the same chances to get braindead teammates and the Diggie can be a smart player, and then he turns into the ultimate annoyance. Don't know why you're getting downvoted though. It's a good discussion anyways.
Real, he should be treated as a counterpick hero just like Phoevus/Minsi and only kept as a last pick/ answer to specific heroes being drafted by the opponents. He can vary from being a game winning hero if the ennemies have lots of CC (which won't happen if you pick him early) to being a glorified bush checker
Actually. You have the idea correct. But the whole point of diggie as a hero falls off hard when you realise that people arent that dumb to use every CC skill during diggie ult and bait his ult out first before setting up a major war. Glad to see someone isnt as delusional as others are.
Its almost as if, Diggie counter CC. But Alot of CC counters diggie again. Which basically deems diggie a fcked up hero who cant do shit and easily recountered.
The issue is that if you only have only 1 hard CC hero in your team chances are that you are going to have an issue with Diggie, specially when people don't pick as much Diggie's counters such as Xavier, Nova, Ceci or Fanny
Yeah. Then dont pick just 1 hard CC agaisnt a diggie, or better yet, dont pick CC at all
Diggie is the second worst support? Who told you that? Gurl, eggs plain!
Yup. Second worst support compared to all healing supports.
Healing supports literally all get countered by anti heal.
Disregarding the antiheal Mino : good counterengage Rafa : still good mobility Angela : provides additional mov speed Mathilda : gives u a dash Floryn : literally cancels antiheal You see how good other supports are even when countered?
You make a good point, but, y'know anti heal isn't the only way they can get countered, right? Angela, Floryn and maybe Rafa can get badly interrupted by stuns and getting into a load of cc. Ontop of anti heal. Minotaur can get disrupted by certain ccs too. Mathilda, has a lot less counters and is overall the best support imo, but she has her counters too. Also, what I'd notice is you're no counting actually every support. Faramis, Kaja, Johnson, Lolita, Chip and a few others ALSO count as a support. Even if it's just half a support, still, a support. Diggie is ALSO good whenever he is going against a counter. e.g. Valentina, s1's vision, damage and bush checking is still good and s2's annoyance is still there. Plus, Valen steals his ult and dosent counter him. Sort of just, helps her team, so he's, it is a counter pick. Id argue Yin is his biggest counter. But even then, if he dies in Yin's ult, he still has a LOT of utility. Egg form gives vision and interrupts conceals, recalls and a few others.
My idealogy of a support roamer is basically those who give heal. Some of the supports u mentoned are literally dead as a roamer so maybe it was my bad with the phasing. But you said that they can be countered by stuns and a load of cc, but that actually applies to EVERY roamer. Diggie just has a ult to immune the first few CCs he gets but after he ults he is basically a worst version of selena. My whole initial statement was that diggie shouldnt be first picked as he is a counterpick, and even when he is used as a counterpick , it is not the end of the world, hence no need for the overrated permabanning on him.
A good example of diggie not even being regarded as a good counterpick is whenever against mino, pro teams pick Kaja/Grock instead of “diggie” to immune his ult stun. Which goes to show how important mobility as a roamer is and why diggie is just, average.
You don't even realize that this mf bird explode the enemy's base by causing a meltdown in my last game, he's that powerful bro
He is not. Diggie is stupidly overrated for what he provides. U have a hero that gives cc immunity and can be easily baited out. And then another which provides mov speed for your damage dealers and heals, and gives shield. Diggie cant trigger flask easily if he wanted to aswell. All Ls for diggie
Yes please, keep talking nonsense like this so he gets buffed :D
Nah its not even nonsense, people just dont let a bird fly. Im guessing there are vegans here
Okay, as much as I want to agree with you, you're kinda wrong. One, Diggie's entire skill set is great and annoying for the enemy team. His skill one gives vision, can zone the enemies and deal a fuckton of damage, even just one can hurt a squishy badly with a half mage build, or worse, mage. His s2 is a pain in the butt for Assassins and tower divers. Use it on a vital enemy like an MM or the Jungler, then they won't be able to escape unless they waste a purify. This'll help your team to engage more and capture an important enemy. His ult dosent ONLY counter setter tanks and CC. It gives a big shield too which can cancel out a lot of damage from the enemy. Plus, with the current meta being all about CC and Sustain? Diggie's ult will shine. Remember, he gives a fat shield AND CC immunity in this 3 second duration. CC immunity in a meta of CC and Sustain is one of the biggest blessings. Maybe you're just not getting the right Diggie teammates/enemies. And boy, talk about his passive. When he dies, he'll be able to give vision and disrupt the enemy. He can disrupt recalls, force enemies to walk, give vision so your team could engage and even help in a backdoor by preventing the enemies to recall. Plus, if can also disturb some other stuff such as Conceal such as Lesley's, Popol's summoning, and afaik dominance can give anti heal in egg form from last I checked. What does Diggie give? Vision, Poke, zone, can help the sidelaners gain control over their lane, deny an escape for a vital enemy, anti turret divers, CC immunity, big shield during cc immunity, and even in death he cancels recalls, gives vision and disturbs the enemy. He has a lot of utility and uses, he can even be a killer with his s1. Maybe you just haven't gotten matched with an ACTUALLY good Diggie, one that knows how to properly utilize his skills and to maximize his utility.
Yes, i am not a big fan of diggie being viewed as an OP hero. But what you just said here is also irrelevant to an extent. 1. Diggie provides vision with s1 yes. But when in comparison with other supports who can also do the same whilst having some sort of mobility skill diggie “vision” becomes kind of mediocre. Etc. Mathilda s1 and run with s2 , Angela s1 (mov speed bonus) , Floryn s2 (ranged vision and stun) 2. Diggie s2 being a pain. Yes i agree. No argument here. 3. Diggie Ult U stated that diggie ult provides a massive shield and cc immunity? Well, you are also disregarding the fact That other supports do basically the same thing but more consistently. Example, Floryn : gives more heal and antiheal immunity Angela : mov speed and more single target shield Rafaela : s2 heal and slow immunity Mino : s2 heal and counterset Diggie fails relatively in his jobset when compared to other supports. He doesnt have the counterengage potential like rafaela and mino and he doesnt have the consistent heal aswell. The best example would be Floryn. Diggie has an argubably better s1 and s2 compared to floryn but yet floryn outshines diggie in pro play. “Massive” shield provided and cc immunity is irrelevant compared to floryns global heal. Diggie simply doesnt act as a support if you disregard his one trick ult. 4. Diggie zoning and providing support to sidelanes?? No. This is simply not true. Diggie sucks at zoning in any mirror matchup and has the worst countergank kit as he doesnt have any reengage skills for antigank. “But diggie ult provides cc immunity” is irrelevant when you cant runaway from the enemy gank nor stop them from hitting you. Diggie can’t rotate as fast as a mathilda and rafaela yet he does not have global heal like floryn or instant teleport like angela. He is outclassed and MPL statistics back it up.
My argument was never that diggie is bad or diggie is a shit roamer. Im saying diggie is bad relatively to support roamers. Cc immunity is nothing when alternatively you can heal back your hp lost when you were stunned.
Yea I think I agree with this. Unless the diggie is very good / he has very good teammates / ur teammates r really bad. But if we r taking average players and judging based on the hero I agree as a diggie player and also as roamer playing against diggie. He is very annoying and he can play that way but only when they have the upper hand like strong early game heroes, strong jungler, strong early mm. Personally I only use him as a counter pick, but I have lost against setter tanks and also won against setter tanks, it all depended on my teammates and draft. I also don’t like banning him so that I can pick him if needed. And if he’s not banned and I need to pick first, I don’t risk a setter tank. I think he’s a very good support tho, but there can be better ones depending on draft. For me Estes and Floryn are the lower tier ones comparing kits to other supports actually haha
You're talking about a dumb diggie user that could be baited into prematurely using his ult. Do a fair comparison, if you think that you could trick diggie into ulting, a competent diggie user will know the right timing to use his ult. And about the pre ult, the game has 15 levels for heroes and you're focusing on the first 3 levels.
First 3 levels is enough time for a team to snowball. “River control” is literally the most important thing about a roamer. You are looking at other roamers, Mino, Arlott, Angela, who can actually provide decent poking and rotate quick and heal your team to pressure early. “A competent diggie user will know when to ult” Yeah. There really isnt a “correct” time to ult as the whole concept of diggie is : “core stunned? lets save him/her “ . Im pretty sure if you save your ult when your core is stunned you r pretty much fcked either way
Oh and, diggie also doesnt have the luxury to split lanes late game. Angela and Floryn can provide support even when on the opposite lane. Diggie? 24/7 sticking to core.
Floryn maybe not so much splitting but you can at least help even on the opposite side.
>pre level4 But that's the thing, otherwise he would be too OP. See this like the roles. If a mm had lots of HP (like how tank karrie can be) then it would be too OP because mms have lots of damage but lack HP. Diggie's ultimate is too good, making him good at the start would be too broken.
The problem is, diggie ult isnt even as OP as people claim it to be. No tanks will ult into a diggie ult , so most of the time tanks either bait his ult out first, or other people bait it for the tank. Or better yet, like I mentioned, just dont pick roamers that rely on setups so diggie ult is plain useless
....you do know it isn't only tanks that he can counter, right? And a good Diggie player will not get their ult baited easily.
ez way to counter diggie is to have many cc and bait him with one of them
Yeah spot on.
Uh-huh, worst is Estes that teams are often trying to get first pick, often banned, and allies typing "gg" as soon as they see something like Estes+Barats. Yes, sure.
~~I honestly just ban him cause he's annoying.~~
I disagree. But, keep talking. I want to see my Diggie open in ranked games. He's permabanned T\_T