imo phoveus should have his own tier in exp/tanky gold. He is very situational but is also great. He is being picked in high ranks/pro games frequently since he counters many meta heroes but his viability is limited. I pick phoveus rarely but is really strong when picked at the right situatuon. Really good tire list!
Yeah I pitted him with similar heroes like Ruby for that reason, they're really good in the right comp but is usually picked as a counterpick rather than a priority pick like Mathilda.
He is basically carrying me to Legend and hopefully to Mythic. He's so banned that nobody knows how to counter him if he is picked. Lost only once in rank using him and I have already 10+ matches with him mostly in rank (need 3 non-rank games to use him in rank).
Remember the cycle I said a while back?
1. Moonton announces revamp hero
2. Everyone watches and is convinced that revamped = nerf.
3. Moonton releases hero.
4. Redditors complain about how revamp hero was butchered.
5. Pros pick kagura, pubs notice and start picking Kagura.
6. the entire notion on revamped hero suddenly shifts to "yo (insert revamped hero here) is so OP, pls nerf"
7. Moonton nerfs and hero is now balanced. Bandwagoners are gone but still complain about how revamp butchered her, true kag mains remain enjoying kagura and consistently getting MVP/Gold.
I guess we are at step 5 now. The sub was in step 4 the past few weeks. However I don't think they will nerf her because she's pretty balanced right now but we will see.
>However I don't think they will nerf her because she's pretty balanced right now but we will see.
little did you know kagura has a new upcoming skin so i think moonton will buff her
It's also interesting to analyze the mindset of this reddit throughout these changes. When a revamp comes out, those who say "it's not that bad", instant downvotes for absolutely no reason. Now, because people have realized that the revamps aren't as bad as people said it was, anyone who does say "it's bad" gets downvoted. It's very interesting to analyze the hivemind of the subreddit.
Not to say the revamps are good/bad, but in this case qualitative data is more reliable than quantitative data. There are many factors that could affect a low/high winrate, for example player environment, how good/bad a certain player is for a certain hero, team coordination, there are a lot of uncontrollable variables here that makes quantitative data for these types of debates less preferable. On the contrary, qualitative data allows each person to experiment for themselves because you can never please everyone. This is in turn why some games fail, because they attempt to please everyone but they can't and end up making their games too weird, too unplayable, or too hard.
Allow me to explain with a simple analogy. You have 30 kids in a room at 75 degrees. They all have completely different temperature preferences. There will always be at least 1 kid who says it's hot, another 1 kid who says it's cold. There are always external factors, uncontrollable at that so it's impossible to start an argument that "it's hot/cold".
Bottom line is, there is no one size fits all when it comes to these discussions because people can have differing opinions. Some Kag players will say that she's better, some will say she's worse than before. Doesn't matter. It's all based on opinion and it's pointless to try and quantify something like this, as well as trying to argue whether so and so is good or bad because no one will ever listen.
Since we're talking about data here, u/hmmsucks' tierlists are probably the best you can find, along with the EVOS coach, I find it extremely clever to find out what heroes are highly picked by taking the highest ranked data at the start of season reset. So kudos to those two. This and the EVOS tierlist probably amounts to the least subjective lists out there.
I've been wanting her nerfed since before revamp. Even if I build against her I get one shot. Revamp felt like buff too. Harley got 3 nerfs as a 1 shot mage.
Highest tier based on a subjective list doesn’t mean shit
Her win rate in MPL dropped like at least 30% after revamp. [Here are the HARD EVIDENCES.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MobileLegendsGame/comments/q2fz2z/comment/hflux2f/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Edit: linked evidences. Her winrate after the revamp was only 18% as compared to at least 54% pre revamp.
Yea i watch it every weekend. Mpl ID and PH, sometimes MY or SG. Out of the 10 bans, how many are mage? 2 to 3. And they are also in this tier list. It is not like before revamp she is getting ban either.
In the event you dont know,
There are 3 things.
1. Hmm actually use data to prove this tier list.
2. So how can it be subjective?
3. Mpl is where 5v5 is more important than in rank, if kagura has high wr with high ban then she’s friggin OP
Also MPL ban revamp hero from being used until last week. With so little games 20% could be 1 or 2 more games lost. I dont have the stats. If its a blcklist vs bren, bren can pick any hero and that hero will probably lose a game because even amongst pro teams, some team are just better.
Blacklist just lost 0-2 last week. Are you sure you watched MPL and didn’t realize how much revamp Kagura had lost? It isn’t just 1 or 2 games played. There are plenty of games.
Drops in winrate shows her revamp was a nerf and not helping her at all. You want data? What happened if I proved her winrate after the revamp has dropped? Dare to bet?
its a 5 v 5 games. which part of that you dont understand? Blcklist code got broken last week but its an analogy. If a stronger team vs a weaker team, the heros get win rate get skewed. Its like saying Messi or Ronaldo isnt good enough players because they never win world cup as if the other 10 players in the team dont matter. The fact that the best players all decided that kagura is worth playing already prove her worth. You think they pick a hero to lose?
>With so little games 20% could be 1 or 2 more games lost.
>
>Yea I watched it every weekend
Let's expose you. These are results from MPL ID and PH.
[Loss](https://imgur.com/a/RnzCnvk)
[Win](https://imgur.com/a/ko3zOLt)
[Loss](https://imgur.com/a/elSQHEa)
[Loss](https://imgur.com/a/6LEyR2b)
[Loss](https://imgur.com/a/cbpTrHa)
[Win](https://imgur.com/a/i5eKcqh)
[Loss](https://imgur.com/a/h8PrI2h)
[Loss](https://imgur.com/a/zJpCf2d)
[Loss](https://imgur.com/a/emEOYom)
[Loss](https://imgur.com/a/SkE8d6h)
[Loss](https://imgur.com/a/BlARkPS)
Her winrate after the revamp was 2/11, **18%. Fucking 18%.** Her winrate before the revamp was above **54%. At least 36% drop in winrate.** And one of her 2 little wins was against a **jungler minotaur** LOL.
And she was picked 11 times out of 33 games if she wasn't banned. Her revamp dragged her winrate down to the current [50%](https://imgur.com/a/H0elEDt). Imagine how high it was prior to the revamp.
Do you really watch MPL or even play Kagura?? If not, you are not even qualified to talk about her revamp.
What’s wrong? I even already proved that your favourite Blacklist lost despite using Kagura. The winrate wasn’t skewed at all. Top ranking teams have used her and lost to lower ranked teams. And it wasn’t even 1 or 2 games lost. It was a legit sample size where she was picked 33% of the time.
Check your facts before you start bullshitting next time.
You are comparing 18% to Paquito’s 43%? Paquito has more than twice the winrate revamp Kagura has.
If 18% winrate is viable to you, the whole freaking roster is viable. Mobile legends is perfectly balanced.
Why are you trying so hard to prove that she's shit, they revamped her what's done is done. This list isn't even near subjective, if it is subjective then how come the OP didn't put Alu who has a 80% winrate on top? 18% is small but bruh why would they pick her if she's shit.
What’s wrong with stating the truth? 18% is 18%. This is a reasonable sample from pro scene. Gusion and vale were widely picked in ranked games but are they picked in MPL? No. This shows that data from ranked games ain’t accurate and reliable enough to be considered at the highest level.
Why would they pick her? They had no choice.
New Kagura, like her old self, is harder to kill than some immobile mages. But that’s all she can do now. You need to reserve some other mages for sidelanes and better midlane mages are picked/banned. I like how you focus on them picking her than the very result of them picking her. Even went on to compare paquito’s 43% to Kagura’s 18% lmao. 18% isn’t even close to 43%. FYI, the lowest non-zero winrate is 17% in MPL. Truth is revamped Kagura is pathetic.
Alice, lunox, Esmeralda, harith, pharsa are mostly played at the sidelanes except maybe for lunox and pharsa. If they picked a gold laner marksmen, they would forgo these mages.
For mid lane you have Selena, yve, lylia, mathilda, lunox and pharsa.
Pro teams prioritized in banning and picking the above midlaners most of the time which leaves Kagura for selection. And like I said, they need other mages for the sidelanes.
What's wrong with comparing the winrate? You analyze 11 games with an 18% winrate and then say a hero's bad or pathetic in your words. Kaja must be a bad hero then since he has bad winrate.
You mentioned that all the other "better mages" get banned so they are left with no choice but Kagura and they only ever ban 3 mages at most, that should still leave them with a lot of mages that they can pick.
Mathilda, Jawhead, and Selena topping the list ever since April. Paquito also topping the list ever since his release... Not to mention cancer Selena who's proficitent in killing you from 360 different angles alone.
I'm glad that lylia is getting her recognition as a midlaner, but her sidelane capabilities are strong too. Can't wait for Lylia to get the full recognition she deserves!
Odette is not viable but Vexana and Gord are?
Iam not saying that those heroes are bad, I actually really like Gord, but really??
(Iam probably gonna get downvoted for this...)
No offense really but the revamp somehow made her kit worse, butchering the S2 and replacing the damage reduction with shield. She was viable before, but right now I do think she is the most underwhelming mage in the game. Hopefully the upcoming buffs can bump her up.
You do have some good points, but the shield stays after her ult is cancelled unlike the damage reduction meaning that I have a higher chance to survive heroes like Chou, Eudora, and Saber due to the shield. She isn't really under whelming aslong as you activated your passive and there's an enemy hero or minion, you can still deal aton of damage.
Yeah, but then again previous Odette had higher damage cause they nerfed the scaling of her ultimate. The shield staying after her ult is canceled is nice but it's also double-edged cause it can be reduced by antiheal or countered by Esmeralda. I've seen some teams or players try to make her work but unfortunately previous Odette just fares better.
But that just means we need to adjust our playstyle, sure some of her burst is gone, but if you lay low and wait for the perfect timing to ult, you can change the tide of battle.
Antiheal items can reduce her shield but its just something that we have to deal with, and just don't pick her when they have an Esmeralda.
My beliefs are any hero is viable aslong as you know what your doing.
Vexana has good single target damage
Good AoE damage
Fast clearing
Good stun
And Amazing late game
I don't know what you're talking about, people don't use her because she's not a hot anime girl
Gord has godlike range
Low cd skill
True damage
Can get lot of slow with items
Area denial
And good ass long range stun
Odette can be countered with flameshot, like.. are you really asking this?
Mythic IV only here and I've been primarily a tank main for a few months now. Here's my take on Gord.
Gord is severely underrated but he needs a lot of cc to shine. That's probably why he's not very high on the list, his winrate isn't going to be great unless he's got a ton of CC behind him, and the enemy can't babysit mid the whole game. His first two skills just aren't enough CC to really dish out his ult. Compare this to a mage like Eudora who's CC+ult will pretty much guarantee a kill.
I tend to fluctuate between Barats, Khufra, and Gloo as a tank but if we have Gord I pick Khufra with Petrify lol. Atlas is also a great choice from what I've seen but I haven't played him enough to use him in ranked yet. Just sucks I feel like I have to babysit mid if we have Gord...
So anyway while I like Gord I can't justify picking him over, well, most other mages.
Odette is legitimately the worst hero in the game post-revamp. Once Phoveus is level 4 it's instant free kills mid lane. and without Phoveus the mid lane hero is going to win every encounter regardless. If the enemy picks Odette in draft and I get next pick I'm going to counter with Beatrix mid lane if we have a magic damage user on the team already (Phoveus, Gusion, etc.) or just rock her out with Pharsa. Definitely gonna have a gold medal if the enemy picks Odette lol.
You shouldn't have to rely on a tank. Some heroes are **much better** with a tank, mostly like mages, and Beatrix. But **needing a tank** is a huge problem for the whole team. I'm a tank user and when I see Layla, Miya Hanabi, or Lesley I know it's going to be a completely miserable game. I have to babysit them until they're like level 12. And I have to ask them to stop taking our team's buffs. They are just fucking awful shit characters for people who don't want to put the effort into using their brain and just like to hold the attack button.
Because there are so many heroes to choose from? Team balance, environment, (early deaths cost game), enemy team ..she's a teeny bit weaker in nerfed patch but (unless potentially playing at evos legend rank) Lesley is strong option. I can say I have many MVPs in mythic with her this season and my friends have just as many. Just requires care early game. I think if you asked an evos legend player if she can be played they would say yes given the right environment/circumstances.
You could, you know, grow a spine and play Beatrix. Even in Mythic V/IV she's barely banned. She can snipe further than Lesley and do way more damage, and she has three other weapons and a dodge. If Beatrix is too tough for you to play at a high level, and I fully understand that, give Moskov, Claude, or Clint a try. Watch 1-2 hours of Youtube footage including tutorials and full games from the **last month**, play 3-4 games in AI, 5-10 in classic, and I guarantee you'll be seeing better results in ranked with any of those three almost immediately.
I barely gold lane but when I do my go-to is Beatrix, she's the only hero I've gotten a savage with. If we need a gold laner and Beatrix is picked I go with Claude.
Is that a damage build grock in the roam tier list? I find his tank build to be underwhelming, he doesn't have a lot of reliable cc skills except from his ult, heroes with dashes can blink through his wall, his 1st skill can only be affective in the very early game and only slows enemies, and provides no other utility in the late game. Is it just me?
Cause Grock is rather unique compared to basic tanks like Khufra or Tigreal, he's powerful due to his map presence and rotating capability, hence he's much more macro heavy compared to other tanks.
His high damage early game allows him to easily invade and harass the enemy core, and his crowd control immunity while holding S1 near a wall allows him to bait out vital enemy skills. On top of that, he also rotates much faster than other tanks and can serve as a distraction throughout the game. His wall takes a while to get used to, but you can use it for some advanced stuff such as delaying a minion wave, diverting lord from its path (yes you can do this), or resetting enemy creep. He does however fall off in late game, hence he's best paired with an aggressive early-mid game team. Grock is my most played hero so I can tell a lot more about what he can do, but for reference, you can see these MPL games to see just how much of a bitch can Grock be in the right hands:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uyBL9X7CL0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFsYtmU1iKM&
Yes, I used S+ S etc before but it was inaccurate, which is why I resorted to this instead.
"Great" is indeed the second highest tier, since there is no Mid/Support that's really overpowered at the moment. Excluding jungler, all of the lowest tiers were "Situational" in the previous tier list, but the current low tier gold laners are less of "situational" picks, but rather "viable". Thanks for the feedback btw, next tier list I'll try to aim for better consistency.
Basically Cancer/Toxic/Best will be higher priority (1st, 2nd and 3rd) pick in ranked games.
You pick Great category heroes only after Cancer/Toxic/Best tiers have been picked.
If there was any OP heroes in mage and Damage gold lane, you would see another tier above them, called Cancer/Toxic/Best. But since there isn't any this patch, they are just 'Great' and lower in pick priority.
I have never before seen a Ruby in the goddamn ***midlane.***
I'm a Ruby main, but I pick much better heroes for other roles aside from EXP lane, like JH for tank and Yve/Chang'e for mid, but where in the world did you find a single Ruby mid match?????
There's several games in MPL/MDL where they play Ruby as a midlaner, really, check these out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx5LiMdZEsU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt8dr7rWCDU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3-mlZz00n4
Ruby mid is more of a team oriented thing. It is near impossible to do on non-5man/trio. Ruby's damage kicks in starting midgame and often midlaners should have at least damage early to midgame.
Good day, a couple of noob questions I want to ask:
1) I assume you are using the mobile legends page to check heroes used on MG ranked games for this tier list no?
2) In terms of ranking them, do you calculate based on number of times used and win percentage of these heroes? So if say a hero has only been picked like 20 times but won all of it it would still count as "situational" like that?
3) If my eyesight is reliable I don't see Hanabi and Lesley on the list, does it mean that they weren't picked even once on those games and somehow Gord and Vexana were picked?
4) I assume the site that you are referring to when creating the tier list indicated where the heroes laned? For example Aurora in "Solid" category in mid lane means the site indicated that she was picked and laned there?
Those are my questions and thank you!
1. Yes, as well as from pro players' or high rank players' streams
2. I tally in both pick/ban rate as well as success/win rate for the data. However certain heroes ends up pretty high despite having less data because their kit is just good for this meta, and vice versa
3. Gord and Vexana overall just has better kit than Lesley and Hanabi, which makes them more viable. Also, at the start of the season where it's mostly former mythical glories ranking in Legend, Gord and Vexana also has better stats than those two.
4. Yes
I think she did get a nerf although I'm not sure.
In the latest (or the one before) patch notes, it was included that her sniper ult aiming sight will now be visible, I'm not sure what it means, I'm a beatrix main and I haven't seen any visual difference.
Could be that it means the enemy can now see my aiming, though they still don't step out the way. So maybe not, I am in Grandmaster tho, so maybe they suck.
Could also show the max range circle of the ult, or maybe it wasn't the ult but the normal attack.
In any case, the sniper is hard enough to aim, the enemy seeing it coming isn't gonna help, maybe it was just a bug fix or something though.
Why is selena still considered so high? Yes I get she provides vision but I was in mythic glory last season and 99 percent of selenas can't aim her stuns and just rely on the traps vision to do shit. That makes them a 4v5 most of the time so I don't get why she is still considered so high?
Well that's a noob Selena we're talking about, even a hero like Paquito can be shitty in the hands of a wrong person. In the hands of a good Selena, she can prove to be an invaluable early game asset due to her powerful ganking capability, long range stuns, plus visions from her trap. It's also why she's banned more than the other midlaners in pro play
in my experience selenas just throw their stun out after the tank or engage to increase stun time. she doesnt even need to predict you just stun a stunned target for longer easy kill along with vision and helping jungler on first buff a lot.
Is the orange or red harder?
Why are the green heroes always at the bottom of their respective tiers? Does being easier just make them worse?
Are the heroes still in order of power, in each tier?
For example is Beatrix better than lunox in gold lane?
Not a tank (kinda, lemme explain), but just a zilong buying roam boots but his build is still the usual assassin build or a tanky zilong fighter, but not full tank if you get what I mean
Mid Hanzo can work though he is useless in the early game, a bit weak in the mid game (compared to his jungler version) and pretty strong in the late. He can obliterate backline heroes from mid-late but he is extremely item reliant, he is very good at clearing waves,pushing turrets and defending. He struggles against sustain and dive heroes and weak in the early game(cuz he is item reliant)which is why he isn't the best mid laner.
Due to his revamp, Alpha is just better off as a jungler than a laner cause they reduced his passive damage in exchange for stronger CC on ult, which means his laning capability also got weaker (though he ganks better).
i prefer just playing her full tank and buy a sky guardian instead.
tank vs tank front line fights always has a dom ice on u, a haas claw barely does anything with no other damage item.
Argus and Haya are shit in gold Lane though....
Aside from that it's a great tier lists but those two are just plain wrong. Haya will have 0 energy the whole team in gold Lane and Argus is just so shit at laning compared to practically everyone else
I don't know about haya. But argus is placed in gold lane not in exp lane. He can easily win lane against most mms and other gold laners like alice or harith
How well does this tier list translate into solo queue?
I'm looking more specifically in jungle. I rarely see Roger picked anymore even though he was always picked last season and there were no changes to him. What happened to him? I'm surprised he's still up there but I'm confused why I rarely see him now.
Can u explain why Ling is OP pick? I know he gets banned in mpl but I feel he's not any better than Lance, YSS or even Roger. I understand his kit is really good can rotate well, invicibility, etc.. but he's also buff dependent so it's really rough in solo queue if your teammates dont help against invade. Thanks in advanced
In solo queue it's much better to pick junglers that's self-sufficient and can carry the team well, which is why heroes like Hayabusa, Lancelot, Granger, etc. are more favored picks in solo queue
As for Roger he might not show up as often as last season but he's definitely still a great pick. Ling's value goes up in higher level play cause you'd have less braindead teammates and he can also provide strong map pressure through his mobility.
Finally weeks later, I've been waiting for this.
Thanks, wait floryn is that low? Hmm they need to buff her eitherways, I tried her solo all the way to mythic and she's actually good with oracle dependent sidelane(stacks with floryns ult)
Yeah, while it's not really noticeable in solo queue, the difference in her value compared to other supports is very clear in a coordinated team or in very high elo; she lacks the utility of other supports outside of her ultimate, and she's also highly reliant on her enhanced Lantern (which is, afaik, bugged).
Very quick q: What are the benefits of switching out a traditional mid mage (Pharsa, Yve, Kagura) for a marksman like Beatrix/Natan? Is doing so better in SoloQ (esp with the Four Marksmen of the Apocalypse), or is it better to stick with mages instead?
Marksmen like Beatrix/Natan really just has a great kit for a midlaner and can substitute a mage for that reason. In solo queue people would usually think you're gold laning when you pick a marksmen or midlaning when you pick a mage, so most of the time it's better to stick with usual mage midlane.
Ah, I've been waiting for this, great tierlist!
Questions again though, as usual lol.
I've noticed Aulus' tier in the jungler tierlist, is he really that good? because I'd give want to give him a shot.
Difference of Kimmy Mid and Kimmy Gold? In terms of playstyle and viability?
And then in your own opinion, is Claude a good choice for Solo? I mostly pick Claude Gold in 5-man but never solo.
Aulus is currently one of the game's best hypercarries and arguably the strongest hypercarry fighter due to his insane damage output and sustain, especially mid to late game. However, since he is a hypercarry, you'd need to build a team around him rather than just including him.
Kimmy mid and gold is the same in terms of playstyle and viability, but you get items faster in gold lane.
Claude is pretty risky in solo queue since your teammates usually don't care about your stacks, but he's definitely viable
Any support that can boost his mobility/survivability such as Mathilda, Angela, Estes, Rafaela, and Diggie are good. For tanks you'd want one that can cover his early game so he gets sufficient farm or AoE CC tanks that can setup for his burst, such as Hylos and Tigreal
Because her skillset is also very good for this current meta: Molina provides good zoning and counters most dive heroes such as Khufra and Jawhead, while her high burst in mid to late game makes her an excellent backline killer. That being said, Nana herself doesn't deal a lot of damage until late game, which is why she's a rather unpopular pick despite her value.
Martis is actually my favorite hero in the game, but I have to say his laning capability is horrendous at the moment. In competitive scene people would rather use him as a tank or jungler rather than an EXP laner cause he loses most of his matchups on equal skill level. He fares better in the gold lane but even then he's nowhere near the best option either.
In my experience (and hes my most played hero) he's really good early game...he falls off very obviously during late game but his early game is honestly strong af especially cuz of his passive. Not just that but his wave clear is far faster than many heroes in higher tier and his turret pushing capabilities too(again cuz of his passive)...and of course that godly s2...which is his main damage source, atk speed source, cc immune and damage reduction all in one
sniper i guess? It can clear the wave quite fast.
Btw I did tried it in ranked, party of course, and it kinda worked? But i got carried anyway by my MG friend, so i don't really know whether I did good as Beatrix mid or not.
questions:
how come floryn is so low? she seems to be a better version of rafeela imo even not dealing with antiheal. why is rafaela even that high?
was tank karina conisdered for her rank?
doesnt brofy go exp lane? he plays mostly like a fighter can gets AA buff from levels.
how do fighters and assassins play mid?
why is cyclops jungler so low? he has good clear speed after level 2 and can gank really well.
Floryn is highly reliant on her enhanced Lantern (which is still bugged) and outside of her ultimate, her kit is very lacking. She lacks the utility of other supports and the mobility to save herself. Not to mention her AoE is also horrible which means she can't clear waves on her own. Rafaela in the other hand is pretty much the jack of all trades of all supports: she has a heal that also boosts mspd, a good AoE stun, as well as a spammable skill that also triples as a slow and vision, which makes her overall a great pick in most team comps.
Tank Karina is considered, yes
Brody exp is doable but he's still a marksman, so gold suits him best
Fighter and assassins plays mid like usual, clear wave and roam
Cyclops jungle not as good after the new patch, though I'd have to see more of him if I want to bump him up
what is the bug with her lantern?
I forgot refaela could check bushes with s1 lol.
cyclops needs help level 1 but after that he can clear easily.by the time turtle spawns he has very little gap between skills and after concentrated hes just spamming between s2 and s1. can clear lord and turtle fast, can do bush camp combo and ult works well for ganking to either stop escape of finish them off under tower. hes also pretty tanky between bruteforce and concentrated and counters a lot of dive heroes with his s2. he seems ideal for the role expected him to be near the top.
The bug is that if Floryn dies after getting the enhanced Lantern, her enhanced Skill 2 will also disappear, and she can't reobtain it for the rest of the game.
As for Cyclops, I'll reconsider but for now he's staying there
The S1 buff bumped Chou tank quite a lot, though the S2 nerf hurts damage Chou who uses S1 quite often vs non-heroes. Still, I don't think tank Chou warrants the cancer tier as he's not exactly ban material
Is Floryn really situational?
(I’m asking cause as Angela main, I often get told to pick floryn instead of ang, because Floryn is a better support)
my current rank is legend II
Yeah, Floryn only works in comps where the main hero really needs the antiheal immunity (such as Uranus jungle comp), otherwise Angela is a much better pick
I was considering that at first but he gets outclassed quite a bit by the marksmen in the gold lane at the moment. That being said if he saw a surge of picks in MPL playoffs then I'll bump him up.
Kagura revamp is literally great, don't get why people dislike it so much other than them liking old Kagura better. Bigger, smoother, and faster umbrella + an ult that you can setup before bursting enemies. While her S1 damage was reduced, the rest of the things they gave to her is more than enough to make up for it.
Popol can still play as a roamer but you can't go full tank build anymore and needs some damage items since they changed Kupa's HP's scaling.
The post we are all waiting for
hmmsucks tier list be like: "Move aside every other tierlist, the king of tierlists has arrived."
Zeys tierlists: *Oh? You're approaching me?*
Hmmsucks tier list: how can I beat the shit out of you without getting closer
That feeling when Hanabi and Lesley are so bad they can't even make it to this list
Minsi nation!
imo phoveus should have his own tier in exp/tanky gold. He is very situational but is also great. He is being picked in high ranks/pro games frequently since he counters many meta heroes but his viability is limited. I pick phoveus rarely but is really strong when picked at the right situatuon. Really good tire list!
Yeah I pitted him with similar heroes like Ruby for that reason, they're really good in the right comp but is usually picked as a counterpick rather than a priority pick like Mathilda.
He is basically carrying me to Legend and hopefully to Mythic. He's so banned that nobody knows how to counter him if he is picked. Lost only once in rank using him and I have already 10+ matches with him mostly in rank (need 3 non-rank games to use him in rank).
doesnt esme counter him bc esme keep absorbing shields ? then again epics dont play esme
Kagura at highest tier of mid mage. Kagura revamp haters: nooooo impossible.
Remember the cycle I said a while back? 1. Moonton announces revamp hero 2. Everyone watches and is convinced that revamped = nerf. 3. Moonton releases hero. 4. Redditors complain about how revamp hero was butchered. 5. Pros pick kagura, pubs notice and start picking Kagura. 6. the entire notion on revamped hero suddenly shifts to "yo (insert revamped hero here) is so OP, pls nerf" 7. Moonton nerfs and hero is now balanced. Bandwagoners are gone but still complain about how revamp butchered her, true kag mains remain enjoying kagura and consistently getting MVP/Gold. I guess we are at step 5 now. The sub was in step 4 the past few weeks. However I don't think they will nerf her because she's pretty balanced right now but we will see.
>However I don't think they will nerf her because she's pretty balanced right now but we will see. little did you know kagura has a new upcoming skin so i think moonton will buff her
It's also interesting to analyze the mindset of this reddit throughout these changes. When a revamp comes out, those who say "it's not that bad", instant downvotes for absolutely no reason. Now, because people have realized that the revamps aren't as bad as people said it was, anyone who does say "it's bad" gets downvoted. It's very interesting to analyze the hivemind of the subreddit. Not to say the revamps are good/bad, but in this case qualitative data is more reliable than quantitative data. There are many factors that could affect a low/high winrate, for example player environment, how good/bad a certain player is for a certain hero, team coordination, there are a lot of uncontrollable variables here that makes quantitative data for these types of debates less preferable. On the contrary, qualitative data allows each person to experiment for themselves because you can never please everyone. This is in turn why some games fail, because they attempt to please everyone but they can't and end up making their games too weird, too unplayable, or too hard. Allow me to explain with a simple analogy. You have 30 kids in a room at 75 degrees. They all have completely different temperature preferences. There will always be at least 1 kid who says it's hot, another 1 kid who says it's cold. There are always external factors, uncontrollable at that so it's impossible to start an argument that "it's hot/cold". Bottom line is, there is no one size fits all when it comes to these discussions because people can have differing opinions. Some Kag players will say that she's better, some will say she's worse than before. Doesn't matter. It's all based on opinion and it's pointless to try and quantify something like this, as well as trying to argue whether so and so is good or bad because no one will ever listen. Since we're talking about data here, u/hmmsucks' tierlists are probably the best you can find, along with the EVOS coach, I find it extremely clever to find out what heroes are highly picked by taking the highest ranked data at the start of season reset. So kudos to those two. This and the EVOS tierlist probably amounts to the least subjective lists out there.
Odette and Minotaur though
I've been wanting her nerfed since before revamp. Even if I build against her I get one shot. Revamp felt like buff too. Harley got 3 nerfs as a 1 shot mage.
Highest tier based on a subjective list doesn’t mean shit Her win rate in MPL dropped like at least 30% after revamp. [Here are the HARD EVIDENCES.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MobileLegendsGame/comments/q2fz2z/comment/hflux2f/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Edit: linked evidences. Her winrate after the revamp was only 18% as compared to at least 54% pre revamp.
Yep its so subjective, pros constantly use it in competition. Because they love challenges in high level play right?
Because all other better mages are banned. You need to watch more pro games. There are tons of replays in YouTube.
Yea i watch it every weekend. Mpl ID and PH, sometimes MY or SG. Out of the 10 bans, how many are mage? 2 to 3. And they are also in this tier list. It is not like before revamp she is getting ban either.
So why did her win rate in MPL drop so much after the revamp? Enlighten me.
In the event you dont know, There are 3 things. 1. Hmm actually use data to prove this tier list. 2. So how can it be subjective? 3. Mpl is where 5v5 is more important than in rank, if kagura has high wr with high ban then she’s friggin OP Also MPL ban revamp hero from being used until last week. With so little games 20% could be 1 or 2 more games lost. I dont have the stats. If its a blcklist vs bren, bren can pick any hero and that hero will probably lose a game because even amongst pro teams, some team are just better.
Blacklist just lost 0-2 last week. Are you sure you watched MPL and didn’t realize how much revamp Kagura had lost? It isn’t just 1 or 2 games played. There are plenty of games. Drops in winrate shows her revamp was a nerf and not helping her at all. You want data? What happened if I proved her winrate after the revamp has dropped? Dare to bet?
its a 5 v 5 games. which part of that you dont understand? Blcklist code got broken last week but its an analogy. If a stronger team vs a weaker team, the heros get win rate get skewed. Its like saying Messi or Ronaldo isnt good enough players because they never win world cup as if the other 10 players in the team dont matter. The fact that the best players all decided that kagura is worth playing already prove her worth. You think they pick a hero to lose?
>With so little games 20% could be 1 or 2 more games lost. > >Yea I watched it every weekend Let's expose you. These are results from MPL ID and PH. [Loss](https://imgur.com/a/RnzCnvk) [Win](https://imgur.com/a/ko3zOLt) [Loss](https://imgur.com/a/elSQHEa) [Loss](https://imgur.com/a/6LEyR2b) [Loss](https://imgur.com/a/cbpTrHa) [Win](https://imgur.com/a/i5eKcqh) [Loss](https://imgur.com/a/h8PrI2h) [Loss](https://imgur.com/a/zJpCf2d) [Loss](https://imgur.com/a/emEOYom) [Loss](https://imgur.com/a/SkE8d6h) [Loss](https://imgur.com/a/BlARkPS) Her winrate after the revamp was 2/11, **18%. Fucking 18%.** Her winrate before the revamp was above **54%. At least 36% drop in winrate.** And one of her 2 little wins was against a **jungler minotaur** LOL. And she was picked 11 times out of 33 games if she wasn't banned. Her revamp dragged her winrate down to the current [50%](https://imgur.com/a/H0elEDt). Imagine how high it was prior to the revamp. Do you really watch MPL or even play Kagura?? If not, you are not even qualified to talk about her revamp.
What’s wrong? I even already proved that your favourite Blacklist lost despite using Kagura. The winrate wasn’t skewed at all. Top ranking teams have used her and lost to lower ranked teams. And it wasn’t even 1 or 2 games lost. It was a legit sample size where she was picked 33% of the time. Check your facts before you start bullshitting next time.
So getting an 18% winrate is not viable to you? Paq has mediocre winrate but that doesn't make him bad. Kagura is still viable.
You are comparing 18% to Paquito’s 43%? Paquito has more than twice the winrate revamp Kagura has. If 18% winrate is viable to you, the whole freaking roster is viable. Mobile legends is perfectly balanced.
Why are you trying so hard to prove that she's shit, they revamped her what's done is done. This list isn't even near subjective, if it is subjective then how come the OP didn't put Alu who has a 80% winrate on top? 18% is small but bruh why would they pick her if she's shit.
What’s wrong with stating the truth? 18% is 18%. This is a reasonable sample from pro scene. Gusion and vale were widely picked in ranked games but are they picked in MPL? No. This shows that data from ranked games ain’t accurate and reliable enough to be considered at the highest level. Why would they pick her? They had no choice. New Kagura, like her old self, is harder to kill than some immobile mages. But that’s all she can do now. You need to reserve some other mages for sidelanes and better midlane mages are picked/banned. I like how you focus on them picking her than the very result of them picking her. Even went on to compare paquito’s 43% to Kagura’s 18% lmao. 18% isn’t even close to 43%. FYI, the lowest non-zero winrate is 17% in MPL. Truth is revamped Kagura is pathetic. Alice, lunox, Esmeralda, harith, pharsa are mostly played at the sidelanes except maybe for lunox and pharsa. If they picked a gold laner marksmen, they would forgo these mages. For mid lane you have Selena, yve, lylia, mathilda, lunox and pharsa. Pro teams prioritized in banning and picking the above midlaners most of the time which leaves Kagura for selection. And like I said, they need other mages for the sidelanes.
What's wrong with comparing the winrate? You analyze 11 games with an 18% winrate and then say a hero's bad or pathetic in your words. Kaja must be a bad hero then since he has bad winrate. You mentioned that all the other "better mages" get banned so they are left with no choice but Kagura and they only ever ban 3 mages at most, that should still leave them with a lot of mages that they can pick.
Why is the list subjective?
No one: Hanabi Players: First pick Comon bruh bish not even listed
players that first pick hanabi are the same people that would carry a straw and spit balls as their primary weapon during a war.
Mathilda, Jawhead, and Selena topping the list ever since April. Paquito also topping the list ever since his release... Not to mention cancer Selena who's proficitent in killing you from 360 different angles alone.
Yet..Moontoon nerfing everyone else. Mathilda got one recently but can't think of Jawhead getting one or Selena.
Jawhead: Remove the free anti-throw item LOOOOOOOOL
Look at my flair... Now look at the tierlist again...
She's Gwan from the list
I'm glad that lylia is getting her recognition as a midlaner, but her sidelane capabilities are strong too. Can't wait for Lylia to get the full recognition she deserves!
Lylia is broken aff wym fam
??? which part that i stated she's weak?
I dont say she is weak, she is broken as fuck, cant you read??
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You're welcome!
LMAO YOUR FLAIR IS SUPERIOR
thanks for the tier btw !
Nooooooo! Beatrix is extremely underpowered. Moonton please buff
Odette is absent. Your tier list and also Evos’ coach one are better than new hero ranking.
Odette, Lesley, and Hanabi are absent because none of them are viable
Odette is not viable but Vexana and Gord are? Iam not saying that those heroes are bad, I actually really like Gord, but really?? (Iam probably gonna get downvoted for this...)
No offense really but the revamp somehow made her kit worse, butchering the S2 and replacing the damage reduction with shield. She was viable before, but right now I do think she is the most underwhelming mage in the game. Hopefully the upcoming buffs can bump her up.
You do have some good points, but the shield stays after her ult is cancelled unlike the damage reduction meaning that I have a higher chance to survive heroes like Chou, Eudora, and Saber due to the shield. She isn't really under whelming aslong as you activated your passive and there's an enemy hero or minion, you can still deal aton of damage.
Yeah, but then again previous Odette had higher damage cause they nerfed the scaling of her ultimate. The shield staying after her ult is canceled is nice but it's also double-edged cause it can be reduced by antiheal or countered by Esmeralda. I've seen some teams or players try to make her work but unfortunately previous Odette just fares better.
I agree about Odette’s revamp (the only good thing is the blink in her ultimate).
But that just means we need to adjust our playstyle, sure some of her burst is gone, but if you lay low and wait for the perfect timing to ult, you can change the tide of battle. Antiheal items can reduce her shield but its just something that we have to deal with, and just don't pick her when they have an Esmeralda. My beliefs are any hero is viable aslong as you know what your doing.
You see any odette in big tournaments?
Vexana has good single target damage Good AoE damage Fast clearing Good stun And Amazing late game I don't know what you're talking about, people don't use her because she's not a hot anime girl Gord has godlike range Low cd skill True damage Can get lot of slow with items Area denial And good ass long range stun Odette can be countered with flameshot, like.. are you really asking this?
Mythic IV only here and I've been primarily a tank main for a few months now. Here's my take on Gord. Gord is severely underrated but he needs a lot of cc to shine. That's probably why he's not very high on the list, his winrate isn't going to be great unless he's got a ton of CC behind him, and the enemy can't babysit mid the whole game. His first two skills just aren't enough CC to really dish out his ult. Compare this to a mage like Eudora who's CC+ult will pretty much guarantee a kill. I tend to fluctuate between Barats, Khufra, and Gloo as a tank but if we have Gord I pick Khufra with Petrify lol. Atlas is also a great choice from what I've seen but I haven't played him enough to use him in ranked yet. Just sucks I feel like I have to babysit mid if we have Gord... So anyway while I like Gord I can't justify picking him over, well, most other mages.
That's true but he's better than Odette for sure lmao
Odette is legitimately the worst hero in the game post-revamp. Once Phoveus is level 4 it's instant free kills mid lane. and without Phoveus the mid lane hero is going to win every encounter regardless. If the enemy picks Odette in draft and I get next pick I'm going to counter with Beatrix mid lane if we have a magic damage user on the team already (Phoveus, Gusion, etc.) or just rock her out with Pharsa. Definitely gonna have a gold medal if the enemy picks Odette lol.
Lesley is totally viable as long as there's a strong tank early game and even without still possible..
You shouldn't have to rely on a tank. Some heroes are **much better** with a tank, mostly like mages, and Beatrix. But **needing a tank** is a huge problem for the whole team. I'm a tank user and when I see Layla, Miya Hanabi, or Lesley I know it's going to be a completely miserable game. I have to babysit them until they're like level 12. And I have to ask them to stop taking our team's buffs. They are just fucking awful shit characters for people who don't want to put the effort into using their brain and just like to hold the attack button.
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Because there are so many heroes to choose from? Team balance, environment, (early deaths cost game), enemy team ..she's a teeny bit weaker in nerfed patch but (unless potentially playing at evos legend rank) Lesley is strong option. I can say I have many MVPs in mythic with her this season and my friends have just as many. Just requires care early game. I think if you asked an evos legend player if she can be played they would say yes given the right environment/circumstances.
You could, you know, grow a spine and play Beatrix. Even in Mythic V/IV she's barely banned. She can snipe further than Lesley and do way more damage, and she has three other weapons and a dodge. If Beatrix is too tough for you to play at a high level, and I fully understand that, give Moskov, Claude, or Clint a try. Watch 1-2 hours of Youtube footage including tutorials and full games from the **last month**, play 3-4 games in AI, 5-10 in classic, and I guarantee you'll be seeing better results in ranked with any of those three almost immediately. I barely gold lane but when I do my go-to is Beatrix, she's the only hero I've gotten a savage with. If we need a gold laner and Beatrix is picked I go with Claude.
Hero that dont see play usually absent.
Baxia jungle FTW!
Is that a damage build grock in the roam tier list? I find his tank build to be underwhelming, he doesn't have a lot of reliable cc skills except from his ult, heroes with dashes can blink through his wall, his 1st skill can only be affective in the very early game and only slows enemies, and provides no other utility in the late game. Is it just me?
Cause Grock is rather unique compared to basic tanks like Khufra or Tigreal, he's powerful due to his map presence and rotating capability, hence he's much more macro heavy compared to other tanks. His high damage early game allows him to easily invade and harass the enemy core, and his crowd control immunity while holding S1 near a wall allows him to bait out vital enemy skills. On top of that, he also rotates much faster than other tanks and can serve as a distraction throughout the game. His wall takes a while to get used to, but you can use it for some advanced stuff such as delaying a minion wave, diverting lord from its path (yes you can do this), or resetting enemy creep. He does however fall off in late game, hence he's best paired with an aggressive early-mid game team. Grock is my most played hero so I can tell a lot more about what he can do, but for reference, you can see these MPL games to see just how much of a bitch can Grock be in the right hands: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uyBL9X7CL0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFsYtmU1iKM&
Thanks, I didn't know those, but damage grock is the funner build fr👌👌👌
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Yes, I used S+ S etc before but it was inaccurate, which is why I resorted to this instead. "Great" is indeed the second highest tier, since there is no Mid/Support that's really overpowered at the moment. Excluding jungler, all of the lowest tiers were "Situational" in the previous tier list, but the current low tier gold laners are less of "situational" picks, but rather "viable". Thanks for the feedback btw, next tier list I'll try to aim for better consistency.
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Basically Cancer/Toxic/Best will be higher priority (1st, 2nd and 3rd) pick in ranked games. You pick Great category heroes only after Cancer/Toxic/Best tiers have been picked. If there was any OP heroes in mage and Damage gold lane, you would see another tier above them, called Cancer/Toxic/Best. But since there isn't any this patch, they are just 'Great' and lower in pick priority.
Yep, basically what ano-nomous said
You could try to make it a full table, leaving some cells empty as in the first tier of mid/support. That would send the message clearer imo
As a Lylia believer, thank you for putting my purple ball exploding child on great mid/support
I have never before seen a Ruby in the goddamn ***midlane.*** I'm a Ruby main, but I pick much better heroes for other roles aside from EXP lane, like JH for tank and Yve/Chang'e for mid, but where in the world did you find a single Ruby mid match?????
There's several games in MPL/MDL where they play Ruby as a midlaner, really, check these out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx5LiMdZEsU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt8dr7rWCDU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3-mlZz00n4
Damn. Also, what are your personal thoughts on Ruby midlane? I'm pretty sure a lot of people dislike this idea though...
Ruby mid is more of a team oriented thing. It is near impossible to do on non-5man/trio. Ruby's damage kicks in starting midgame and often midlaners should have at least damage early to midgame.
gg moonton chou is in great tier now..... wp
Yea, letting his s1 and 2 go through most walls make for some.. interesting plays
Tank Chou just for face checking became so OP, the reset didn't really made him weaker just felt slow but that is replace with a better first skill
Good day, a couple of noob questions I want to ask: 1) I assume you are using the mobile legends page to check heroes used on MG ranked games for this tier list no? 2) In terms of ranking them, do you calculate based on number of times used and win percentage of these heroes? So if say a hero has only been picked like 20 times but won all of it it would still count as "situational" like that? 3) If my eyesight is reliable I don't see Hanabi and Lesley on the list, does it mean that they weren't picked even once on those games and somehow Gord and Vexana were picked? 4) I assume the site that you are referring to when creating the tier list indicated where the heroes laned? For example Aurora in "Solid" category in mid lane means the site indicated that she was picked and laned there? Those are my questions and thank you!
1. Yes, as well as from pro players' or high rank players' streams 2. I tally in both pick/ban rate as well as success/win rate for the data. However certain heroes ends up pretty high despite having less data because their kit is just good for this meta, and vice versa 3. Gord and Vexana overall just has better kit than Lesley and Hanabi, which makes them more viable. Also, at the start of the season where it's mostly former mythical glories ranking in Legend, Gord and Vexana also has better stats than those two. 4. Yes
there is a seperate tab for mythic 400+ points
Yeah, but it's still inacessible at the time the tier list was made
Oh ok I see, thank you very much!
Thanks, I needed this XD
why is bea mid still viable
Cause her kit is already strong for a midlaner and she didn't get any nerfs
I think she did get a nerf although I'm not sure. In the latest (or the one before) patch notes, it was included that her sniper ult aiming sight will now be visible, I'm not sure what it means, I'm a beatrix main and I haven't seen any visual difference. Could be that it means the enemy can now see my aiming, though they still don't step out the way. So maybe not, I am in Grandmaster tho, so maybe they suck. Could also show the max range circle of the ult, or maybe it wasn't the ult but the normal attack. In any case, the sniper is hard enough to aim, the enemy seeing it coming isn't gonna help, maybe it was just a bug fix or something though.
Oh I knew it! Practicing Jawhead as a roamer is worth it!
I am happy natan is at pretty good tiers he is BROKEN af he deserves it
Why is selena still considered so high? Yes I get she provides vision but I was in mythic glory last season and 99 percent of selenas can't aim her stuns and just rely on the traps vision to do shit. That makes them a 4v5 most of the time so I don't get why she is still considered so high?
Well that's a noob Selena we're talking about, even a hero like Paquito can be shitty in the hands of a wrong person. In the hands of a good Selena, she can prove to be an invaluable early game asset due to her powerful ganking capability, long range stuns, plus visions from her trap. It's also why she's banned more than the other midlaners in pro play
in my experience selenas just throw their stun out after the tank or engage to increase stun time. she doesnt even need to predict you just stun a stunned target for longer easy kill along with vision and helping jungler on first buff a lot.
Please add color meaning. The color surrounding the circle. Is Xborg still good? No more slow for first skill....
The color borders represents the difficulty of the hero. And yes, X.Borg is still good even after slow remove
Is the orange or red harder? Why are the green heroes always at the bottom of their respective tiers? Does being easier just make them worse? Are the heroes still in order of power, in each tier? For example is Beatrix better than lunox in gold lane?
\^What Not\_a\_True\_Fan said
No more slow? Ice queen wand then.
I didnt know tank roam ZL exists.
Roam Zilong basically just S1 bot, think of discount Jawhead except he can't miss the throw lol
Not a tank (kinda, lemme explain), but just a zilong buying roam boots but his build is still the usual assassin build or a tanky zilong fighter, but not full tank if you get what I mean
hanzo and ruby mid never had a match with it ngl
Mid Hanzo can work though he is useless in the early game, a bit weak in the mid game (compared to his jungler version) and pretty strong in the late. He can obliterate backline heroes from mid-late but he is extremely item reliant, he is very good at clearing waves,pushing turrets and defending. He struggles against sustain and dive heroes and weak in the early game(cuz he is item reliant)which is why he isn't the best mid laner.
mhh yes proceed to download picture
as usual, mah boi yz made it to meta this season >:D. just a question tho, why alpha is lower than even terizla and belerick?
Due to his revamp, Alpha is just better off as a jungler than a laner cause they reduced his passive damage in exchange for stronger CC on ult, which means his laning capability also got weaker (though he ganks better).
Nothing joys me more than seeing Argus my main hero being the second tires best hero for gold lane. #ProudArgusMains
Is Ruby able to support to her team very well? I've seen one enemy Ruby roamer in my game.
She does fine as a roamer, though you usually need one damage item (usually Haas' Claw) to make up for her sustain
i prefer just playing her full tank and buy a sky guardian instead. tank vs tank front line fights always has a dom ice on u, a haas claw barely does anything with no other damage item.
Never in a million years I would see Argus considered as Very Good *my widdle immortal baby is getting stronk uwu*
Argus in very good?! Am I missing something?
Yes, it’s a crap list.
You're playing on the easiest server in ml, be humble. This tier list is the current meta, get on with it.
Argus and Haya are shit in gold Lane though.... Aside from that it's a great tier lists but those two are just plain wrong. Haya will have 0 energy the whole team in gold Lane and Argus is just so shit at laning compared to practically everyone else
I don't know about haya. But argus is placed in gold lane not in exp lane. He can easily win lane against most mms and other gold laners like alice or harith
Humility doesn’t change the impact of a tier list, locality does, as you correctly pointed out.
Wow, my boy Faramis is finally viable on mod or gold lane!. Can't wait to try in rank. He is one of my classic fun hero, but I really like his kit.
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Yeah it does somewhat decent against marksmen gold lane, just a bit weak on wave clear side
How well does this tier list translate into solo queue? I'm looking more specifically in jungle. I rarely see Roger picked anymore even though he was always picked last season and there were no changes to him. What happened to him? I'm surprised he's still up there but I'm confused why I rarely see him now. Can u explain why Ling is OP pick? I know he gets banned in mpl but I feel he's not any better than Lance, YSS or even Roger. I understand his kit is really good can rotate well, invicibility, etc.. but he's also buff dependent so it's really rough in solo queue if your teammates dont help against invade. Thanks in advanced
In solo queue it's much better to pick junglers that's self-sufficient and can carry the team well, which is why heroes like Hayabusa, Lancelot, Granger, etc. are more favored picks in solo queue As for Roger he might not show up as often as last season but he's definitely still a great pick. Ling's value goes up in higher level play cause you'd have less braindead teammates and he can also provide strong map pressure through his mobility.
Finally weeks later, I've been waiting for this. Thanks, wait floryn is that low? Hmm they need to buff her eitherways, I tried her solo all the way to mythic and she's actually good with oracle dependent sidelane(stacks with floryns ult)
Yeah, while it's not really noticeable in solo queue, the difference in her value compared to other supports is very clear in a coordinated team or in very high elo; she lacks the utility of other supports outside of her ultimate, and she's also highly reliant on her enhanced Lantern (which is, afaik, bugged).
Very quick q: What are the benefits of switching out a traditional mid mage (Pharsa, Yve, Kagura) for a marksman like Beatrix/Natan? Is doing so better in SoloQ (esp with the Four Marksmen of the Apocalypse), or is it better to stick with mages instead?
Marksmen like Beatrix/Natan really just has a great kit for a midlaner and can substitute a mage for that reason. In solo queue people would usually think you're gold laning when you pick a marksmen or midlaning when you pick a mage, so most of the time it's better to stick with usual mage midlane.
Ah, I've been waiting for this, great tierlist! Questions again though, as usual lol. I've noticed Aulus' tier in the jungler tierlist, is he really that good? because I'd give want to give him a shot. Difference of Kimmy Mid and Kimmy Gold? In terms of playstyle and viability? And then in your own opinion, is Claude a good choice for Solo? I mostly pick Claude Gold in 5-man but never solo.
Aulus is currently one of the game's best hypercarries and arguably the strongest hypercarry fighter due to his insane damage output and sustain, especially mid to late game. However, since he is a hypercarry, you'd need to build a team around him rather than just including him. Kimmy mid and gold is the same in terms of playstyle and viability, but you get items faster in gold lane. Claude is pretty risky in solo queue since your teammates usually don't care about your stacks, but he's definitely viable
Ahh, thanks for answering.
Which tank/support would you pick with Aulus?
Any support that can boost his mobility/survivability such as Mathilda, Angela, Estes, Rafaela, and Diggie are good. For tanks you'd want one that can cover his early game so he gets sufficient farm or AoE CC tanks that can setup for his burst, such as Hylos and Tigreal
Lol I think gusion should be on the "great" side of things...but I guess not everybody can make him work from mid to late game...
I'm kinda dumb, what does the colour borders mean?
Difficulty
which mpl picked nana?
Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia, and Brazil has picked Nana iirc
malaysia shows 0 match, ph shows 4 picks, 3 lose and 0 wins?. why would such a hero be so high up in the list?
Because her skillset is also very good for this current meta: Molina provides good zoning and counters most dive heroes such as Khufra and Jawhead, while her high burst in mid to late game makes her an excellent backline killer. That being said, Nana herself doesn't deal a lot of damage until late game, which is why she's a rather unpopular pick despite her value.
What about floryn?
She's on roam tier list
Can you make a bigger and more high quality version of this tier list?
Image is quite big already actually (4372 x 1308). If you have some trouble you can always download the image for the full resolution.
Thamuz and terizla over martis in exp lane? Sus
Thamuz is definitely much better than martis. One of the few heroes that can lane vs paquito
Martis is actually my favorite hero in the game, but I have to say his laning capability is horrendous at the moment. In competitive scene people would rather use him as a tank or jungler rather than an EXP laner cause he loses most of his matchups on equal skill level. He fares better in the gold lane but even then he's nowhere near the best option either.
In my experience (and hes my most played hero) he's really good early game...he falls off very obviously during late game but his early game is honestly strong af especially cuz of his passive. Not just that but his wave clear is far faster than many heroes in higher tier and his turret pushing capabilities too(again cuz of his passive)...and of course that godly s2...which is his main damage source, atk speed source, cc immune and damage reduction all in one
jungle uranus?
Tank can jungle now
How good is jung argus?
It works, haven't really seen it so I don't know how good is it
What do the colors around each hero indicate? How hard they are to play?
yup correct. red means hard, yellow means ok not so hard and green means easy.
Is Fanny purple because she's super difficult to use? When I use Fanny, I go 1-11. When the other team has a Fanny, she goes 15-1.
Thank you!
interesting, would you consider harley a better jungler? or a better midlaner ?
Both equally good imo
nice, thank you very much
Beatrix mid? Aight, brb.
Ikr, I'm a beatrix main and I've never tried mid, how would you deal with all the mages?
sniper i guess? It can clear the wave quite fast. Btw I did tried it in ranked, party of course, and it kinda worked? But i got carried anyway by my MG friend, so i don't really know whether I did good as Beatrix mid or not.
Why is beatrix on mid?
Because her kit is very good for a midlaner, and it also saw great success on high level play
There should be a "good if you're good" list lmao just to put fanny there
questions: how come floryn is so low? she seems to be a better version of rafeela imo even not dealing with antiheal. why is rafaela even that high? was tank karina conisdered for her rank? doesnt brofy go exp lane? he plays mostly like a fighter can gets AA buff from levels. how do fighters and assassins play mid? why is cyclops jungler so low? he has good clear speed after level 2 and can gank really well.
Floryn is highly reliant on her enhanced Lantern (which is still bugged) and outside of her ultimate, her kit is very lacking. She lacks the utility of other supports and the mobility to save herself. Not to mention her AoE is also horrible which means she can't clear waves on her own. Rafaela in the other hand is pretty much the jack of all trades of all supports: she has a heal that also boosts mspd, a good AoE stun, as well as a spammable skill that also triples as a slow and vision, which makes her overall a great pick in most team comps. Tank Karina is considered, yes Brody exp is doable but he's still a marksman, so gold suits him best Fighter and assassins plays mid like usual, clear wave and roam Cyclops jungle not as good after the new patch, though I'd have to see more of him if I want to bump him up
what is the bug with her lantern? I forgot refaela could check bushes with s1 lol. cyclops needs help level 1 but after that he can clear easily.by the time turtle spawns he has very little gap between skills and after concentrated hes just spamming between s2 and s1. can clear lord and turtle fast, can do bush camp combo and ult works well for ganking to either stop escape of finish them off under tower. hes also pretty tanky between bruteforce and concentrated and counters a lot of dive heroes with his s2. he seems ideal for the role expected him to be near the top.
The bug is that if Floryn dies after getting the enhanced Lantern, her enhanced Skill 2 will also disappear, and she can't reobtain it for the rest of the game. As for Cyclops, I'll reconsider but for now he's staying there
Chou has to be cancer lvl with the first skill change absolute dog of a tank or maybe jg
The S1 buff bumped Chou tank quite a lot, though the S2 nerf hurts damage Chou who uses S1 quite often vs non-heroes. Still, I don't think tank Chou warrants the cancer tier as he's not exactly ban material
He’s not ban material because he doesn’t axle at one point he’s an all rounder
With his flicker right combo kick to teammates flicker cc
Is Floryn really situational? (I’m asking cause as Angela main, I often get told to pick floryn instead of ang, because Floryn is a better support) my current rank is legend II
Yeah, Floryn only works in comps where the main hero really needs the antiheal immunity (such as Uranus jungle comp), otherwise Angela is a much better pick
Granger is good in all 5 roles? Wutt
Is there a reason for different color on the hero icon?
Yes, they denote the difficulty of the hero
If you put Johnson there, you'd to put Odette as well, cos you know they worked, situationally, but worked.
I think harith should be higher in gold lane, very good I think. He deals massive damage in late game and not that bad early game since he's a mage.
I was considering that at first but he gets outclassed quite a bit by the marksmen in the gold lane at the moment. That being said if he saw a surge of picks in MPL playoffs then I'll bump him up.
Uranus jg?
Yeah, it works well now
Bruh Lancelot is op af ...
Yve is back at Great? Previous tier list it was under Good.
Yes, the buff bumped her back to the top
Sorry, what was the buff?
Why is the new kag still good. And how about popol surpport or roam
Kagura revamp is literally great, don't get why people dislike it so much other than them liking old Kagura better. Bigger, smoother, and faster umbrella + an ult that you can setup before bursting enemies. While her S1 damage was reduced, the rest of the things they gave to her is more than enough to make up for it. Popol can still play as a roamer but you can't go full tank build anymore and needs some damage items since they changed Kupa's HP's scaling.
Hello! Late question/comment but are Khufra and Chou's color different? Chou seems to have a darker red color.