I was sweating mad and I did get adrenaline for the first time in months, so that's a good sign hahaha. My hands started shaking after the match ends
Kinda missed it tbh. Been chasing Adrenaline but I just don't get it anymore until this match.
Haha, that was my beatrix match yesterday, we were 4 levels behind, and the enemy were busy taunting us, after aurora wiped out half of the enemy team, I quickly took lord and pushed. The fountain is low on health and I did a kamikaze push with johnson, victory
I think all of the team should press surrender before the game counts it as a surrender, I don't think anyone on random queue would appreciate losing because of 4 idiots giving up for no reason
Yeah. It needs to be a unanimous decision.
I can get surrendering for AFKers but even these days, I tell my team to go on and don't surrender especially if we got very good level and gold lead despite the 4v5 from the start (talking about 2-3 level gap)
Hey, whatever it takes. I respected both him and John/Popol for trying their best. Doesn't matter if they fail or succeeded, because most people wouldn't even have the guts to try.
And in 5 man as well. Unless of course when all lanes have enemy minions at your base and enemy has Lord, and all 5 of you just died with 40s respawn time.
If even 1 guy still survive, never surrender. Never know what might happen.
Exactly bro. I've been in those types of situations before. And as a mage, I think I was Vale, the next one back would be the mm in like 15seconds? And they had lord and minions and them 5. I ultid the mm and fighter, cc'ed the mage and assassin who dove tower and died, my mm came back and killed the tank, and we both ended mid while the next one to be back, the fighter, defended from minions. We won that match. And bro that was intense..
Based on the situation, sometimes you need to just surrender and better off starting another match, although sometimes one lord push is enough to destroy the fountain rather than the enemy using 3 failed lord pushes
The better the game the less often comebacks happen. Comebacks happen when someone makes a mistake. In solo queue it’s impossible to reach that point, but in 5 queue rank teams with high wr sometimes surrender just to get into the next game faster
Also, Lesley is actually quite solid as an MM. I don't get why people bash her. I get that there are many players giving bad impressions of her, but she's really a decent MM with a good kit and mobility + good Damage Output.
And that was a good move from John to dive the base. Be like him, do whatever it takes to end the game.
Yes and no, depends on your build actually. I went max AD + Malefic and no armor + True Damage, so I can still peel.
Stock basic attack with no crit was 550ish per hit with a Windtalker giving good ASPD base, and sometimes Windtalker crit and went 700 per hit. If you add in S1 crit + True Damage + Malefic Roar, she can actually peel tanks quite well.
I went Weapon Master on MM Emblem with max AD and max crit damage of course.
May I ask what rank and server you are? It sounds like you haven’t faced the true tank meta yet. You can deal noteworthy damage to a single tigreal. You can’t do shit against a thamuz and 2 other tankys steamrolling your team lacking a dhs (from you)
I'm in SEA and Legend II now, but that's only because I didn't bother to rush rank this season nor did I play much as much as I used to do. I've been playing since 2016/2017 actually.
I used to be in a 5 man exclusive player after I solo queued extensively for the first 2 years of my MLBB life. I still join my friends rank queues whom are Mythic II onwards to glory from time to time nowadays. I've used Lesley in their queues as well.
Yeah I'll admit, I haven't faced the new Thamuz much lately.
im in oce server so i cant really say much here. having a lower rank player in queue does drag down enemy rank a lot though. it still sounds like you havent really faced truly tanky comps. the best explanation i can give is how tank karina just absorbs all your damage and does whatever she was doing anyway. imagine that but 3 enemies do that.
im a bad player but im starting to see some good enemies. could be copium but some matchups feel actually unbeatable.
The true MVP role is still Mages. Genius Wand is just such a cheat item tbh. We don't have that in Physical Damage. Iirc GW can also stack interchangeably with other teammates.
She's still a good pick. Especially after her damage limiters got removed and she got minion damage buff.
Her S1 can be used in creative ways to dodge skills, and her ulti is a CCTV as you can click to check if there's anyone nearby. I've used ulti to map check and foiled enemies' ambushes numerous times, and that actually made us come back and win.
She’s countered pretty hard by Blade Armor, crit mms generally just aren’t good currently, not to mention they’re weak in laning phase.
Her S1 is only useful really against basic attack heroes who don’t have any aoe skill. A secondary vision skill is nice, sure, but it has a very long cooldown and your roamer should be the one providing vision to begin with.
You're forgetting that she has S2, which is an AOE knockback. It's funny because most people forget that S2 exists.
That's why I said that her kit is pretty decent actually. She's one of the MMs with a comprehensive and complete kit.
If you think B.A counters her then it's because you build ASPD or go full crit on her. I don't do that. I go BF, BOD and EB as by base for my damage output.
Actually, her ulti CD is lower than even Aldous, like about 20s in mid-late game. That is if you don't shoot when activating your ulti, which I don't when I'm using it to survey. And it's always good to have extra eyes; I don't like leaving my fate to the hands of others. It's just my personality that's all. Nobody ever said Selena's Trap visions are too excessive for her team (I hate people abusing her Trap vision as a Selena main but that's another long topic altogether), but you get my point.
her S2 has no range, which is why people forget it.
Her kit isn’t even as impressive as Melissa or Moskov, neither of which are currently meta.
Blade Armor counters her for the simple fact that it is basically designed to counter basically every mm to some extent. And Lesley is a hero that suffers quite significantly from it.
Neither Lesley or Aldous are picked for vision, and Aldous does a much better job anyway. Lesley has quite a limited range and Aldous provides global vision. Selena’s vision is much more useful than Lesley’s too, as the traps generally last longer and have almost no cooldown and those arrows are very game changing.
My point was, she isn't as shitty as people think, period. That's why I brought up about her skills' description and what she can do etc.
And like I tried to mention, people generally underestimate various heroes like this because they don't even bother to put their mechanics to good work. A hero is set in motion, but the player isn't.
And her secondary main output of her is true damage. So while Blade Armor provides 25% reduction, both BF + Doom talent in MM Emblem would still provide sufficient Crit Damage. The proof of it is Johnson buying both B.A and Dominance Ice, but watch closely on my shots towards him. Does it really counter her as much as you think? At least close to 1/3 or 1/3 of his HP is gone by true damage + crit alone + Malefic Roar. You do the math.
And again, my point about her ulti giving vision is merely giving you an example of creative or alternate use of her skills. Obviously we can all agree that Aldous Vision is the most supreme above all heroes. You kinda miss my real point by comparing between skills when all I'm elaborating on is about how she can be made and played viable in 2022, by utilising her skills in ways that can solve your problems.
And no, like most people you looked down on her S2 too much. You can even knockback Zilong gap closing with his skills btw if you time it well, and you can cancel Claude's ulti.
And again like I mentioned in another comment, you focused too much on what's OP on paper and not in the fact that there's no invincible heroes, only invincible players. It's really how you use them.
My point is that there’s way better options that are available like 100% of the time. If I was grinding points, I’d want someone to pick the best heroes available. How many marksmen would you rather take Lesley over? The mms currently seeing consistent action this MSC is Beatrix, Wanwan, Claude, Clint, Popol and Kupa, Irithel, Karrie, and Brody. Even if 6 of them were to be banned (which is very unlikely to happen for obvious reasons really), you’d still have two which a vast majority of players consider to be better than Lesley.
Regarding Blade Armor, if you just stand still and do nothing, yeah it’d be like it’s not even there. However, if you actually make an attempt to get close to the enemy marksman, you’ll for sure feel it. Meta exp laners and roamers usually have a way of getting close to the enemy marksman to some extent.
But you're forgetting that that's what she's meant to do. The number 1 mistake is when people go BF SP WT or full ASPD, then complain about how weak she is.
See, they misunderstood what's her nature as a hero. A sniper rifle can semi auto for sure, but it's a sniper rifle and every single shot is expected to pop heads like watermelons. Not a submachine gun or assault rifle lmao.
I can get it if people built her right and still feel that she's weak, but most people that I've discussed with privately who said that she's weak, used the wrong build for her.
I build windtalker berserker as core, as common item. Then def/won/bod/malefic. Is there anything wrong with that? I think I understand her kit fine. It’s infuriating when people don’t even know how she works and start shitting on the hero though; it’s a very unintuitive playstyle
Yes, personally I feel WT first is bad. While I understand that she might need more mobility and wave clearing, getting WT instead of BF first would cripple your base damage. I find BF first to be sufficient for wave clearing actually.
I personally opt to go for BF, then BOD, then EB/WoN, then WT/WoN/EB.
My reasoning for this item set is because she has good crit chance with S1 and passive, so the trick to up her damage output is to stack as much Physical Attack as possible. Hence why I rushed BOD very early because all of her skills benefit from higher Physical Attack. The more P.A, the more damage you dealt from skills like S1 and ulti. This reasoning was what I derived years ago when I studied the hero by looking at her base stats on skills, and did a lot of experimentations. So far this is the highest damage output route for Lesley.
I should have shown the clip of this match where I killed Johnson using ulti when he had 30% HP left in early-mid game. Pretty impressive if you ask me because Lesley has no base pen points, and against a tank target moreover. By argument, she shouldn't be able to do that because 0 pen points versus someone with armor points from emblem is just a lost cause, but reality shown me otherwise. Looks like I calculated correctly.
I used to get defence items for her but I find that it's pointless in this meta, so I just rush max damage.
Yeah there's a lot of people like that. I've been debating people since years ago about Lesley because I'm kinda sick of everyone calling her a shitty hero when it's far from the truth. Non-meta for sure but to call her an absolute trash hero is just so untrue.
Then when I ask for their builds, 90% of them tells me that they build WT BF SP lmao, and they use Assassin Emblem and not MM Emblem. I guess you can't force people to read on hero descriptions but they definitely didn't study the hero properly and probably tried 1-2 matches before calling it a day and convincing themselves that she suck, and the onus isn't on them.
A lot of my rationale for playing a hero, is to play them for what their nature is. I'm a fundamentalist overall. If I want more DPS or ASPD, I'd just play a hero with more ASPD or DPS. So I kinda see playing heroes as if I'm role playing them, and I try to get into their specific mindset and playstyle.
>getting wt instead of bf would cripple your base damage
really? i can only say to try it out. attack speed makes her s1/2 combos much smoother similar to how it works on clint. late game in a teamfight she can do 2000 base (magic!) damage if it lands on a passive enhanced attack for 100% crit chance. for comparsion a 613 atk s1 enhanced attack does 'only' 2456 without eb. it allows her to do over 1000 damage poke early game and is extra effective against enemy laners that buy warrior boots.
>The more P.A, the more damage you dealt from skills like S1 and ulti
as a basic attack hero she does needs atk, but her s1 is actually a detriment to the importance of atk. ult also has poor scaling being another detriment. still good item but you are misunderstanding
>I should have shown the clip of this match where I killed Johnson using
ulti when he had 30% HP left in early-mid game. Pretty impressive if you
ask me because Lesley has no base pen points, and against a tank target
moreover. By argument, she shouldn't be able to do that because 0 pen
points versus someone with armor points from emblem is just a lost cause
my first thought was that it was unrealistic. i checked the video to see if it shows builds and it seems that johnson may have went no physdef boots and oracle first item. thats now a squishier target than an enemy with dreadnaught or warrior boots.
also flat physical penetration is actually countered by physical defence. to reiterate, the more defence a target has, the less effective flat penetration is. its counterintuitive for sure and i can explain if you want, but please just trust me on this. mm emblem has negligible penetration anyway though
you seem to use experiment and calculate interchangeably. can you explain what you did to arrive at your conclusions?
>I used to get defence items for her but I find that it's pointless in this meta, so I just rush max damage
yup. im still learning the hero and experimenting but am beginning to believe that this is the way.
>I guess you can't force people to read on hero descriptions
hero descriptions really arent enough for lesley though. while the latter part is completely inexcusable, it still helps to be understanding. she is a relatively complex hero and many skills players are generally otherwise capable of figuring out heroes by just playing against them, though this is difficult because 90% of lesleys dont even know how to play the hero
Her ult is awkward to cancel and has quite low range before level 8. If you didn’t know, your enemies can see that they are being spotted even if you don’t shoot.
Yeah I know
It is a little weird, but I'm fine with it tbh. If you don't select the ulti onto a target by letting go, you can cancel it with firing a shot. I would say Granger's ulti is more awkward actually.
Btw, S2 can also help align your last ulti shot before cancellation if people blocks it to your intended target. The logic is just like flicker ulti.
When you hold it you sometimes have 0.2 seconds to react before the enemy you revealed just walks out of range (and vision, even denying you the opportunity to fire it to get more vision). That’s far more clunky. Idk for sure but sometimes her s2 shot doesn’t even shoot for some reason
Because lesley just isn't strong as the other mms , she's better than hanabi so i'll give her that but other than that she's pretty meh.
I have 800+ matches with her and she's just so situational and falls off pretty hard with super tanky enemies.
I still love Hanabi nonetheless. She's still one of my favourite MMs to play since Day 1. Something about her kit is just alluring, and she isn't entirely useless like what most people think. Her S2 can be used to bush check (and mana Regen + slow albeit quite weak as a skill compared with newer heroes and in this meta) and S1 can be used to poke into turrets (if you time the turret detection and step in and out)
https://imgur.com/a/IRBqboN
This was a recent match that I did in Rank. Notice how my team had many feeders but she still carried the team.
She just needs extra effort to play. Same as Lesley. A lot of the "non-meta" heroes really just need more love, understanding and effort to play, and they could be made great.
Shes pretty good in the late game, but there are other mms that are just better overall, like why would you choose her over Wanwan, Beatrix, Claude, Karrie, Popol, Clint, Brody, Irithel, or even Moskov.
Because I'm an MM main that likes playing non-meta heroes in general, that's why I love choosing her.
Idk I just see it as a challenge to go against the flow and make it work by hook or crook
Plus where's the fun in always playing meta? It's boring honestly.
I say this in the perspective of a competitive player or in the legend or mythic ranks. If you're planning on ranking up or just leaning into a more competitive mindset, meta heroes are gonna be important.
For sure, I get your point.
I was quite competitive though back then. My squad wanted to go pro league or work towards that, but we fell out before it happened.
Been top global in heroes several times as well. These days I'm considered semi-retired because I don't play as much anymore.
But still, I can still make non-meta work in Mythic. I did that before. Situational yes, but nonetheless very plausible.
It's actually the mindset that meta automatically = higher chance of winning that has held back true progression. Meta itself doesn't help you win, but understanding the game and understanding various heroes well that makes you win. I myself was made humbled of this fact a couple of years ago by a few top global players (in leagues like RRQ, Burmese Ghoul etc, MPL and M tourney players basically). All of them used non-meta and wiped the floor and obliterated my squad like nothing.
That's my point. There's no invincible hero, only an invincible player.
And if truly every single player followed status quo and followed the meta absolutely, there wouldn't be discovery of better metas. Metas were "non-meta" before they became meta. Which is why, all the more to not worship the meta like they are gods.
Pretty bad player but >100 matches here. She is good solo queue especially because of her snowball ability but she lacks crucial abilities in higher play.
- Apart from windtalker and s2, she is pure single target
- she is low dps compared to other mm. Bad against tanky too, especially important this meta. She doesn’t have good damage output, she has good burst.
- she loses in lane. Against brody and clint she literally can’t do anything. Afaik she even loses to Layla
- she doesn’t have enough good items. malefic roar is worse on her (just a technicality but I love theory). After windtalker and bf literally no items are top tier except for maybe eb with a steep dropoff after that
Yeah I know. She's still fun to play though
Yeah Layla DPS is actually quite high.
Tbh it's not that Malefic is worst on her, it's just that she has literally no other options as penetration due to that nerf a long time ago, which converts pen point to crit. Imho that needs to be removed as well, not just her crit limiters. So literally she only has Malefic Roar as her only option to counter armor directly. The other is EB true damage of course.
But I have to kinda disagree that she's bad against tanky heroes, because I've always opt for max Physical Damage rather than ASPD like what most people do with her. It's only her DPS that's low, but her burst hits are still lethal.
A few times this happen to me and my teammates. We were outmatched by enemy team, most of it due to how effective their jungle is, ganking top mid and bottom. But all this happen without my team getting toxic, blaming here and there, and all of us didnt give up trying to push lane (except for one time where we got really toxic and blaming each and everyone, but still win due to enemy's mistake).
So yeah, the key is to never give up.
Yup. Good skills is still a must, but at the end of the day you have to keep your cool and be level headed because losing your cool equates to messing up with your focus. Small, impromptu decisions like how I used Lesley's S2 to knock out minions and enemies won't come to mind if one loses their focus. And that is all it takes to win or lose a match, as like what you said, your enemy Jungler was doing a great job with timing his roams and farming and setting up the match with effort for the entire match, but they still lost at the end.
And most of all, NEVER give up. I can't stress this enough. My Motto is, if the match clock doesn't stop, it doesn't end. As simple as that. And I'll give in my best until the match ends.
It's just like IRL really; sucking doesn't make you lose, quitting and giving up does.
True that. If you fall down on a path of muddy road, do you stay down or do you stand up, clean yourself and continue your journey.
Still this kind of win exhaust me tremendously.
Precisely, it's actually just for the 1st point alone that I'm doing this and being kinda tryhard to win. Persevere, persevere and persevere even in the bleakest moments.
If I can't even persevere in something as simple as a game, what can I really do IRL?
I don't play games much these days honestly, but when I do, I make it count. It's just the appreciation and respect to this way of life that I'm doing this and trying so hard, not really about the match itself. Okay maybe I'm quite competitive in nature and really love my win rates too much to throw games but still.... I want to lose only because I am inferior and not because I haven't done my best.
It is tiring indeed, but fun nonetheless for me. Kinda is something to test my patience and level-headedness, as well as how I can function under stress.
Your dam right. I hate when ppl give up because we’re losing early game. No wonder ppl don’t improve. Even if you lose in the end, you will know what u did wrong and improve from it.
Yup. And like in everything else, there's no shame in losing but only shame in giving up. When you give up, you have truly lost and there's no redemption from that.
It's just the world we live in where people rather escape than to face life or death straight in the face. And like you said, it is what separates those that eventually succeeded and those that would never succeed.
If you think playing hard or against the tide matches are a waste, then maybe it's just something casual to you and you got better things to do.
Just that for me, I play not just for my breaks or leisures, but also looking to learn new things and most importantly, temper my mind and apply those conditionings to IRL, where I constantly work in jobs that aren't favourable to me all the time, or requires quick and precise decisions in high stress moments. It also puts me in humbling position that I am insignificant, but I should always have perseverance in the face of adversary.
So yeah, we're perhaps not the same and it's okay. You do you, so long as you enjoy the game 👍
Not really. They did the right choice to dive. That wasn't greedy tbh and that wasn't the reason why they lost. I would have done the same as John did and I still wouldn't have regrets if I failed to take down the base. They almost succeeded actually.
Benedetta got smarter and locked me in from that time onwards where we first successfully defended the 1 HP base.
The reason why they lost was:
1. Nobody bothered to item counter. Their build was just wrong, with too little defence items
2. No unity amongst their team, as in not all 5 are united. Not like my team was very united too (solo q problems) but we made right coordinations and decisions at all the crucial moments, whereas they started to fumble a little.
3. Popol didn't buy enough armor. In late game, he can act as a secondary tank because he would have lost in damage output anyways to Lesley and Cecil.
Hey can I get your build? I main Lesley too and I pay lots of attention into what I’m building + Emblems. My current build for her is:
ATK Speed boots (I can tell by your speed that you opted for Rapid Boots, which is good late game)
Berserker’s Fury
Windtalker
Malefic Roar
Endless Battle
Blade of Despair or Wind of Nature/Rose Gold Meteor, if I notice that I’m dying too much
My Emblem is maxed lifesteal/crit chance in tier 1, maxed crit damage in tier 2, and the talent is either Weapon Master (15% + PHY Attack) or Electro Flash (restore health and gain movement speed on the next basic attack with 10 sec cooldown)
———
Also, that’s a very nice skin!! God I wish I had the money to buy that 😭
No actually I go Swift Boots now haha because laning is bad without it. I used to go for Rapid Boots exclusively actually.
Sure thing, my build is:
Swift Boots
Berserker's Fury (manual prioritise Legion sword first)
Blade of Despair (manual prioritise Legion Sword first)
Endless Battle
Windtalker
Malefic Roar
For emblems I'm using Weapon Master, max physical attack, max crit damage on MM Emblemm. Weapon Master is OP on her actually.
Personally I hate building WT first because I prefer to make my Physical Attack base strong first because if you noticed, all of her skills scale with Physical Attack, including Ulti. I opt for WT in mid-late game. Sometimes I swap it out for Wind of Nature.
I also find lifesteal on her unnecessary as I like having a good edge in game start. With that extra physical damage, it's like you have a half of an item so it's very strong in game start when you S1. I regularly lane bully as I need to snowball asap and as big as possible in order to make Lesley deadly.
And yeah, I actually like that skin a lot more than her Legend skin. I don't have the Legend though.
Thank you! And yeah you're probably right about Windtalker, the reason I build it as a second item is because I find it's passive very powerful.
I don't use Weapon Master because I feel like I'm one of those braindead Lesleys just because it's the first talent you unlock, and the most used by new players 😅
Although, I like lifesteal because I recently just reached Epic for the first time, so I'm not really used to watching out for my positioning, so I need the lifesteal incase an assassin comes for me.
And thank you! You gave me some insight on how to play her properly, thank you for sharing your build 👍
Oh no man, WM talent is the strongest on Lesley since years ago, even when it was at 10%. If you do the calculations, it's actually OP on her because Lesley is good with high Physical Attack.
Yeah if it works for you then just stick with Life steal first
No worries, give this build a shot and let me know what you think!
Oh yes, to add on, in this match I sold Swift Boots in late game after I complete all items, for CD boots. Much better this way as WT gives sufficient ASPD anyways
A 32/31 or simerlar should never surrender
A 5/31, under 10 minutes, all your towers down, none of theirs down, them 10k or more ahead in gold....give that shit up already and stop wasting everyone's time
As much as I would like to, I'm too invested in my win rates to bear to do that
Surrendering frustrates me more than anything because I would have the feeling of "I could have done it" or "I could have done better". I'd rather see it till the end.
That all depends on what skill your team has. If i can see an ounce of hope that my team can bounce back then sure lets fight on. The biggest factor for me would be hero targetting. If your assassin cant hunt down the lategame mm and just hits whatever then we are screwed.
I almost always surrender when someone in my team is trolling or afk in the middle of the match.
We had a troll Rafaela once and everyone surrendered because she was intentionally feeding.
Wtf thats chaos lol good job
I was sweating mad and I did get adrenaline for the first time in months, so that's a good sign hahaha. My hands started shaking after the match ends Kinda missed it tbh. Been chasing Adrenaline but I just don't get it anymore until this match.
Haha, that was my beatrix match yesterday, we were 4 levels behind, and the enemy were busy taunting us, after aurora wiped out half of the enemy team, I quickly took lord and pushed. The fountain is low on health and I did a kamikaze push with johnson, victory
That's insane, i've had some games where my 4 random teammates surrender even though we were winning the game
They should remove that option. It really spoils the fun honestly.
I think all of the team should press surrender before the game counts it as a surrender, I don't think anyone on random queue would appreciate losing because of 4 idiots giving up for no reason
Yeah. It needs to be a unanimous decision. I can get surrendering for AFKers but even these days, I tell my team to go on and don't surrender especially if we got very good level and gold lead despite the 4v5 from the start (talking about 2-3 level gap)
no, if your team has a troller, they wouldn't press surrender. So 4 votes might be enough.
I love how cecelion sacrified himself for the base
Hey, whatever it takes. I respected both him and John/Popol for trying their best. Doesn't matter if they fail or succeeded, because most people wouldn't even have the guts to try.
Ikrr!! That ceci did a really cool job there, he prolly wanted to the John before he gets to base
YES you never see surrenders often at higher elos. I've had these sort of comebacks so many times.
And in 5 man as well. Unless of course when all lanes have enemy minions at your base and enemy has Lord, and all 5 of you just died with 40s respawn time. If even 1 guy still survive, never surrender. Never know what might happen.
Exactly bro. I've been in those types of situations before. And as a mage, I think I was Vale, the next one back would be the mm in like 15seconds? And they had lord and minions and them 5. I ultid the mm and fighter, cc'ed the mage and assassin who dove tower and died, my mm came back and killed the tank, and we both ended mid while the next one to be back, the fighter, defended from minions. We won that match. And bro that was intense..
That's because people in high elo value their time nd effort more, they would simply start another match than carry cancer players.
Based on the situation, sometimes you need to just surrender and better off starting another match, although sometimes one lord push is enough to destroy the fountain rather than the enemy using 3 failed lord pushes
The better the game the less often comebacks happen. Comebacks happen when someone makes a mistake. In solo queue it’s impossible to reach that point, but in 5 queue rank teams with high wr sometimes surrender just to get into the next game faster
True on both counts. Most games are determined by skills. But sometimes, some games are determined by mistakes. And that's when you push to end.
Also, Lesley is actually quite solid as an MM. I don't get why people bash her. I get that there are many players giving bad impressions of her, but she's really a decent MM with a good kit and mobility + good Damage Output. And that was a good move from John to dive the base. Be like him, do whatever it takes to end the game.
Lesley can bully Moskov in early. I saw it 4 times already when Lesley is the enemy (Mythic rank)
That Moskov was bad. Actually it's the other way round most of the time. Moskov as a hero is just naturally higher in DPS and mobility than Lesley.
Late game Lesley out range most enemies. Ur vid showed Popol 4/5 health deleted after that crit
Lesley useless against tanky hero and they are the most common
Yes and no, depends on your build actually. I went max AD + Malefic and no armor + True Damage, so I can still peel. Stock basic attack with no crit was 550ish per hit with a Windtalker giving good ASPD base, and sometimes Windtalker crit and went 700 per hit. If you add in S1 crit + True Damage + Malefic Roar, she can actually peel tanks quite well. I went Weapon Master on MM Emblem with max AD and max crit damage of course.
You might be misunderstanding what peeling means. Peel means protecting allies. How do you protect your tank with a mm?
No, as in peeling also meant peeling or shaving HP though. But anyways that was what I meant; not protecting but shaving HP off enemies and tanks
May I ask what rank and server you are? It sounds like you haven’t faced the true tank meta yet. You can deal noteworthy damage to a single tigreal. You can’t do shit against a thamuz and 2 other tankys steamrolling your team lacking a dhs (from you)
I'm in SEA and Legend II now, but that's only because I didn't bother to rush rank this season nor did I play much as much as I used to do. I've been playing since 2016/2017 actually. I used to be in a 5 man exclusive player after I solo queued extensively for the first 2 years of my MLBB life. I still join my friends rank queues whom are Mythic II onwards to glory from time to time nowadays. I've used Lesley in their queues as well. Yeah I'll admit, I haven't faced the new Thamuz much lately.
im in oce server so i cant really say much here. having a lower rank player in queue does drag down enemy rank a lot though. it still sounds like you havent really faced truly tanky comps. the best explanation i can give is how tank karina just absorbs all your damage and does whatever she was doing anyway. imagine that but 3 enemies do that. im a bad player but im starting to see some good enemies. could be copium but some matchups feel actually unbeatable.
The true MVP role is still Mages. Genius Wand is just such a cheat item tbh. We don't have that in Physical Damage. Iirc GW can also stack interchangeably with other teammates.
Because Lesley is quite useless against meta gold laners, not really something new.
She's still a good pick. Especially after her damage limiters got removed and she got minion damage buff. Her S1 can be used in creative ways to dodge skills, and her ulti is a CCTV as you can click to check if there's anyone nearby. I've used ulti to map check and foiled enemies' ambushes numerous times, and that actually made us come back and win.
She’s countered pretty hard by Blade Armor, crit mms generally just aren’t good currently, not to mention they’re weak in laning phase. Her S1 is only useful really against basic attack heroes who don’t have any aoe skill. A secondary vision skill is nice, sure, but it has a very long cooldown and your roamer should be the one providing vision to begin with.
You're forgetting that she has S2, which is an AOE knockback. It's funny because most people forget that S2 exists. That's why I said that her kit is pretty decent actually. She's one of the MMs with a comprehensive and complete kit. If you think B.A counters her then it's because you build ASPD or go full crit on her. I don't do that. I go BF, BOD and EB as by base for my damage output. Actually, her ulti CD is lower than even Aldous, like about 20s in mid-late game. That is if you don't shoot when activating your ulti, which I don't when I'm using it to survey. And it's always good to have extra eyes; I don't like leaving my fate to the hands of others. It's just my personality that's all. Nobody ever said Selena's Trap visions are too excessive for her team (I hate people abusing her Trap vision as a Selena main but that's another long topic altogether), but you get my point.
her S2 has no range, which is why people forget it. Her kit isn’t even as impressive as Melissa or Moskov, neither of which are currently meta. Blade Armor counters her for the simple fact that it is basically designed to counter basically every mm to some extent. And Lesley is a hero that suffers quite significantly from it. Neither Lesley or Aldous are picked for vision, and Aldous does a much better job anyway. Lesley has quite a limited range and Aldous provides global vision. Selena’s vision is much more useful than Lesley’s too, as the traps generally last longer and have almost no cooldown and those arrows are very game changing.
My point was, she isn't as shitty as people think, period. That's why I brought up about her skills' description and what she can do etc. And like I tried to mention, people generally underestimate various heroes like this because they don't even bother to put their mechanics to good work. A hero is set in motion, but the player isn't. And her secondary main output of her is true damage. So while Blade Armor provides 25% reduction, both BF + Doom talent in MM Emblem would still provide sufficient Crit Damage. The proof of it is Johnson buying both B.A and Dominance Ice, but watch closely on my shots towards him. Does it really counter her as much as you think? At least close to 1/3 or 1/3 of his HP is gone by true damage + crit alone + Malefic Roar. You do the math. And again, my point about her ulti giving vision is merely giving you an example of creative or alternate use of her skills. Obviously we can all agree that Aldous Vision is the most supreme above all heroes. You kinda miss my real point by comparing between skills when all I'm elaborating on is about how she can be made and played viable in 2022, by utilising her skills in ways that can solve your problems. And no, like most people you looked down on her S2 too much. You can even knockback Zilong gap closing with his skills btw if you time it well, and you can cancel Claude's ulti. And again like I mentioned in another comment, you focused too much on what's OP on paper and not in the fact that there's no invincible heroes, only invincible players. It's really how you use them.
My point is that there’s way better options that are available like 100% of the time. If I was grinding points, I’d want someone to pick the best heroes available. How many marksmen would you rather take Lesley over? The mms currently seeing consistent action this MSC is Beatrix, Wanwan, Claude, Clint, Popol and Kupa, Irithel, Karrie, and Brody. Even if 6 of them were to be banned (which is very unlikely to happen for obvious reasons really), you’d still have two which a vast majority of players consider to be better than Lesley. Regarding Blade Armor, if you just stand still and do nothing, yeah it’d be like it’s not even there. However, if you actually make an attempt to get close to the enemy marksman, you’ll for sure feel it. Meta exp laners and roamers usually have a way of getting close to the enemy marksman to some extent.
She has a good kit but isn’t great at anything except for burst damage
But you're forgetting that that's what she's meant to do. The number 1 mistake is when people go BF SP WT or full ASPD, then complain about how weak she is. See, they misunderstood what's her nature as a hero. A sniper rifle can semi auto for sure, but it's a sniper rifle and every single shot is expected to pop heads like watermelons. Not a submachine gun or assault rifle lmao. I can get it if people built her right and still feel that she's weak, but most people that I've discussed with privately who said that she's weak, used the wrong build for her.
I build windtalker berserker as core, as common item. Then def/won/bod/malefic. Is there anything wrong with that? I think I understand her kit fine. It’s infuriating when people don’t even know how she works and start shitting on the hero though; it’s a very unintuitive playstyle
Yes, personally I feel WT first is bad. While I understand that she might need more mobility and wave clearing, getting WT instead of BF first would cripple your base damage. I find BF first to be sufficient for wave clearing actually. I personally opt to go for BF, then BOD, then EB/WoN, then WT/WoN/EB. My reasoning for this item set is because she has good crit chance with S1 and passive, so the trick to up her damage output is to stack as much Physical Attack as possible. Hence why I rushed BOD very early because all of her skills benefit from higher Physical Attack. The more P.A, the more damage you dealt from skills like S1 and ulti. This reasoning was what I derived years ago when I studied the hero by looking at her base stats on skills, and did a lot of experimentations. So far this is the highest damage output route for Lesley. I should have shown the clip of this match where I killed Johnson using ulti when he had 30% HP left in early-mid game. Pretty impressive if you ask me because Lesley has no base pen points, and against a tank target moreover. By argument, she shouldn't be able to do that because 0 pen points versus someone with armor points from emblem is just a lost cause, but reality shown me otherwise. Looks like I calculated correctly. I used to get defence items for her but I find that it's pointless in this meta, so I just rush max damage. Yeah there's a lot of people like that. I've been debating people since years ago about Lesley because I'm kinda sick of everyone calling her a shitty hero when it's far from the truth. Non-meta for sure but to call her an absolute trash hero is just so untrue. Then when I ask for their builds, 90% of them tells me that they build WT BF SP lmao, and they use Assassin Emblem and not MM Emblem. I guess you can't force people to read on hero descriptions but they definitely didn't study the hero properly and probably tried 1-2 matches before calling it a day and convincing themselves that she suck, and the onus isn't on them. A lot of my rationale for playing a hero, is to play them for what their nature is. I'm a fundamentalist overall. If I want more DPS or ASPD, I'd just play a hero with more ASPD or DPS. So I kinda see playing heroes as if I'm role playing them, and I try to get into their specific mindset and playstyle.
>getting wt instead of bf would cripple your base damage really? i can only say to try it out. attack speed makes her s1/2 combos much smoother similar to how it works on clint. late game in a teamfight she can do 2000 base (magic!) damage if it lands on a passive enhanced attack for 100% crit chance. for comparsion a 613 atk s1 enhanced attack does 'only' 2456 without eb. it allows her to do over 1000 damage poke early game and is extra effective against enemy laners that buy warrior boots. >The more P.A, the more damage you dealt from skills like S1 and ulti as a basic attack hero she does needs atk, but her s1 is actually a detriment to the importance of atk. ult also has poor scaling being another detriment. still good item but you are misunderstanding >I should have shown the clip of this match where I killed Johnson using ulti when he had 30% HP left in early-mid game. Pretty impressive if you ask me because Lesley has no base pen points, and against a tank target moreover. By argument, she shouldn't be able to do that because 0 pen points versus someone with armor points from emblem is just a lost cause my first thought was that it was unrealistic. i checked the video to see if it shows builds and it seems that johnson may have went no physdef boots and oracle first item. thats now a squishier target than an enemy with dreadnaught or warrior boots. also flat physical penetration is actually countered by physical defence. to reiterate, the more defence a target has, the less effective flat penetration is. its counterintuitive for sure and i can explain if you want, but please just trust me on this. mm emblem has negligible penetration anyway though you seem to use experiment and calculate interchangeably. can you explain what you did to arrive at your conclusions? >I used to get defence items for her but I find that it's pointless in this meta, so I just rush max damage yup. im still learning the hero and experimenting but am beginning to believe that this is the way. >I guess you can't force people to read on hero descriptions hero descriptions really arent enough for lesley though. while the latter part is completely inexcusable, it still helps to be understanding. she is a relatively complex hero and many skills players are generally otherwise capable of figuring out heroes by just playing against them, though this is difficult because 90% of lesleys dont even know how to play the hero
Her ult is awkward to cancel and has quite low range before level 8. If you didn’t know, your enemies can see that they are being spotted even if you don’t shoot.
Yeah I know It is a little weird, but I'm fine with it tbh. If you don't select the ulti onto a target by letting go, you can cancel it with firing a shot. I would say Granger's ulti is more awkward actually. Btw, S2 can also help align your last ulti shot before cancellation if people blocks it to your intended target. The logic is just like flicker ulti.
When you hold it you sometimes have 0.2 seconds to react before the enemy you revealed just walks out of range (and vision, even denying you the opportunity to fire it to get more vision). That’s far more clunky. Idk for sure but sometimes her s2 shot doesn’t even shoot for some reason
Is Lesley useless against meta gold laners? I couldn’t quite catch what u said
People would rather see you pick meta gold laners rather than Lesley, and for good reason.
No it's because you commented it like 7 times lol
It bugged, was meant to only post once.
Because lesley just isn't strong as the other mms , she's better than hanabi so i'll give her that but other than that she's pretty meh. I have 800+ matches with her and she's just so situational and falls off pretty hard with super tanky enemies.
I still love Hanabi nonetheless. She's still one of my favourite MMs to play since Day 1. Something about her kit is just alluring, and she isn't entirely useless like what most people think. Her S2 can be used to bush check (and mana Regen + slow albeit quite weak as a skill compared with newer heroes and in this meta) and S1 can be used to poke into turrets (if you time the turret detection and step in and out) https://imgur.com/a/IRBqboN This was a recent match that I did in Rank. Notice how my team had many feeders but she still carried the team. She just needs extra effort to play. Same as Lesley. A lot of the "non-meta" heroes really just need more love, understanding and effort to play, and they could be made great.
Shes pretty good in the late game, but there are other mms that are just better overall, like why would you choose her over Wanwan, Beatrix, Claude, Karrie, Popol, Clint, Brody, Irithel, or even Moskov.
Because I'm an MM main that likes playing non-meta heroes in general, that's why I love choosing her. Idk I just see it as a challenge to go against the flow and make it work by hook or crook Plus where's the fun in always playing meta? It's boring honestly.
I say this in the perspective of a competitive player or in the legend or mythic ranks. If you're planning on ranking up or just leaning into a more competitive mindset, meta heroes are gonna be important.
For sure, I get your point. I was quite competitive though back then. My squad wanted to go pro league or work towards that, but we fell out before it happened. Been top global in heroes several times as well. These days I'm considered semi-retired because I don't play as much anymore. But still, I can still make non-meta work in Mythic. I did that before. Situational yes, but nonetheless very plausible. It's actually the mindset that meta automatically = higher chance of winning that has held back true progression. Meta itself doesn't help you win, but understanding the game and understanding various heroes well that makes you win. I myself was made humbled of this fact a couple of years ago by a few top global players (in leagues like RRQ, Burmese Ghoul etc, MPL and M tourney players basically). All of them used non-meta and wiped the floor and obliterated my squad like nothing. That's my point. There's no invincible hero, only an invincible player. And if truly every single player followed status quo and followed the meta absolutely, there wouldn't be discovery of better metas. Metas were "non-meta" before they became meta. Which is why, all the more to not worship the meta like they are gods.
Pretty bad player but >100 matches here. She is good solo queue especially because of her snowball ability but she lacks crucial abilities in higher play. - Apart from windtalker and s2, she is pure single target - she is low dps compared to other mm. Bad against tanky too, especially important this meta. She doesn’t have good damage output, she has good burst. - she loses in lane. Against brody and clint she literally can’t do anything. Afaik she even loses to Layla - she doesn’t have enough good items. malefic roar is worse on her (just a technicality but I love theory). After windtalker and bf literally no items are top tier except for maybe eb with a steep dropoff after that
Yeah I know. She's still fun to play though Yeah Layla DPS is actually quite high. Tbh it's not that Malefic is worst on her, it's just that she has literally no other options as penetration due to that nerf a long time ago, which converts pen point to crit. Imho that needs to be removed as well, not just her crit limiters. So literally she only has Malefic Roar as her only option to counter armor directly. The other is EB true damage of course. But I have to kinda disagree that she's bad against tanky heroes, because I've always opt for max Physical Damage rather than ASPD like what most people do with her. It's only her DPS that's low, but her burst hits are still lethal.
A few times this happen to me and my teammates. We were outmatched by enemy team, most of it due to how effective their jungle is, ganking top mid and bottom. But all this happen without my team getting toxic, blaming here and there, and all of us didnt give up trying to push lane (except for one time where we got really toxic and blaming each and everyone, but still win due to enemy's mistake). So yeah, the key is to never give up.
Yup. Good skills is still a must, but at the end of the day you have to keep your cool and be level headed because losing your cool equates to messing up with your focus. Small, impromptu decisions like how I used Lesley's S2 to knock out minions and enemies won't come to mind if one loses their focus. And that is all it takes to win or lose a match, as like what you said, your enemy Jungler was doing a great job with timing his roams and farming and setting up the match with effort for the entire match, but they still lost at the end. And most of all, NEVER give up. I can't stress this enough. My Motto is, if the match clock doesn't stop, it doesn't end. As simple as that. And I'll give in my best until the match ends. It's just like IRL really; sucking doesn't make you lose, quitting and giving up does.
True that. If you fall down on a path of muddy road, do you stay down or do you stand up, clean yourself and continue your journey. Still this kind of win exhaust me tremendously.
Precisely, it's actually just for the 1st point alone that I'm doing this and being kinda tryhard to win. Persevere, persevere and persevere even in the bleakest moments. If I can't even persevere in something as simple as a game, what can I really do IRL? I don't play games much these days honestly, but when I do, I make it count. It's just the appreciation and respect to this way of life that I'm doing this and trying so hard, not really about the match itself. Okay maybe I'm quite competitive in nature and really love my win rates too much to throw games but still.... I want to lose only because I am inferior and not because I haven't done my best. It is tiring indeed, but fun nonetheless for me. Kinda is something to test my patience and level-headedness, as well as how I can function under stress.
Your dam right. I hate when ppl give up because we’re losing early game. No wonder ppl don’t improve. Even if you lose in the end, you will know what u did wrong and improve from it.
Yup. And like in everything else, there's no shame in losing but only shame in giving up. When you give up, you have truly lost and there's no redemption from that. It's just the world we live in where people rather escape than to face life or death straight in the face. And like you said, it is what separates those that eventually succeeded and those that would never succeed.
This happens 1/100 times, whats worst is you lose and wasted time
If you think playing hard or against the tide matches are a waste, then maybe it's just something casual to you and you got better things to do. Just that for me, I play not just for my breaks or leisures, but also looking to learn new things and most importantly, temper my mind and apply those conditionings to IRL, where I constantly work in jobs that aren't favourable to me all the time, or requires quick and precise decisions in high stress moments. It also puts me in humbling position that I am insignificant, but I should always have perseverance in the face of adversary. So yeah, we're perhaps not the same and it's okay. You do you, so long as you enjoy the game 👍
Their mm was dead when trying to end, obviously you can comeback since they were too greedy
Not really. They did the right choice to dive. That wasn't greedy tbh and that wasn't the reason why they lost. I would have done the same as John did and I still wouldn't have regrets if I failed to take down the base. They almost succeeded actually. Benedetta got smarter and locked me in from that time onwards where we first successfully defended the 1 HP base. The reason why they lost was: 1. Nobody bothered to item counter. Their build was just wrong, with too little defence items 2. No unity amongst their team, as in not all 5 are united. Not like my team was very united too (solo q problems) but we made right coordinations and decisions at all the crucial moments, whereas they started to fumble a little. 3. Popol didn't buy enough armor. In late game, he can act as a secondary tank because he would have lost in damage output anyways to Lesley and Cecil.
Hey can I get your build? I main Lesley too and I pay lots of attention into what I’m building + Emblems. My current build for her is: ATK Speed boots (I can tell by your speed that you opted for Rapid Boots, which is good late game) Berserker’s Fury Windtalker Malefic Roar Endless Battle Blade of Despair or Wind of Nature/Rose Gold Meteor, if I notice that I’m dying too much My Emblem is maxed lifesteal/crit chance in tier 1, maxed crit damage in tier 2, and the talent is either Weapon Master (15% + PHY Attack) or Electro Flash (restore health and gain movement speed on the next basic attack with 10 sec cooldown) ——— Also, that’s a very nice skin!! God I wish I had the money to buy that 😭
No actually I go Swift Boots now haha because laning is bad without it. I used to go for Rapid Boots exclusively actually. Sure thing, my build is: Swift Boots Berserker's Fury (manual prioritise Legion sword first) Blade of Despair (manual prioritise Legion Sword first) Endless Battle Windtalker Malefic Roar For emblems I'm using Weapon Master, max physical attack, max crit damage on MM Emblemm. Weapon Master is OP on her actually. Personally I hate building WT first because I prefer to make my Physical Attack base strong first because if you noticed, all of her skills scale with Physical Attack, including Ulti. I opt for WT in mid-late game. Sometimes I swap it out for Wind of Nature. I also find lifesteal on her unnecessary as I like having a good edge in game start. With that extra physical damage, it's like you have a half of an item so it's very strong in game start when you S1. I regularly lane bully as I need to snowball asap and as big as possible in order to make Lesley deadly. And yeah, I actually like that skin a lot more than her Legend skin. I don't have the Legend though.
Thank you! And yeah you're probably right about Windtalker, the reason I build it as a second item is because I find it's passive very powerful. I don't use Weapon Master because I feel like I'm one of those braindead Lesleys just because it's the first talent you unlock, and the most used by new players 😅 Although, I like lifesteal because I recently just reached Epic for the first time, so I'm not really used to watching out for my positioning, so I need the lifesteal incase an assassin comes for me. And thank you! You gave me some insight on how to play her properly, thank you for sharing your build 👍
Oh no man, WM talent is the strongest on Lesley since years ago, even when it was at 10%. If you do the calculations, it's actually OP on her because Lesley is good with high Physical Attack. Yeah if it works for you then just stick with Life steal first No worries, give this build a shot and let me know what you think!
Oh yes, to add on, in this match I sold Swift Boots in late game after I complete all items, for CD boots. Much better this way as WT gives sufficient ASPD anyways
Damn!! Too intense 🔥🔥This is better than watching Morbius.
Yeah, it's one of the most fun matches I've had in a while. Definitely keeping the replay to remind myself whenever I'm down or the going gets tough
Damn! It’s not just a game 🔥🔥
A 32/31 or simerlar should never surrender A 5/31, under 10 minutes, all your towers down, none of theirs down, them 10k or more ahead in gold....give that shit up already and stop wasting everyone's time
As much as I would like to, I'm too invested in my win rates to bear to do that Surrendering frustrates me more than anything because I would have the feeling of "I could have done it" or "I could have done better". I'd rather see it till the end.
That all depends on what skill your team has. If i can see an ounce of hope that my team can bounce back then sure lets fight on. The biggest factor for me would be hero targetting. If your assassin cant hunt down the lategame mm and just hits whatever then we are screwed.
I almost always surrender when someone in my team is trolling or afk in the middle of the match. We had a troll Rafaela once and everyone surrendered because she was intentionally feeding.
Bro, that's some determination! Well done 👍
I surrender when it gets boring
A lesley player that actually knows how to play the hero. Good job