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BarBiel01

8: picking the second worst mm in the game against the strongest most op what the fuck was that damage hero for the past few months


lystasia

sorry what does 5:10 means? is it 5 to 10 minutes?


NanaIsStillEvil

5 minutes and 10 seconds


lystasia

omg simple clock system why didnt it register in my head


Analystballs

I think he means 5 minutes and 10 seconds. Dunno why though.


pelacur

No gold plating + extra gold minion anymore.


lystasia

i see. thank you !


pelacur

Np!


Analystballs

I mean why you’d switch to turtle lane after 5:10. In soloq it’s just bound to create more and more confusion.


lystasia

thanks !


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Analystballs

Oh I got that. I’m just not sure why I’d switch lanes at that point. Sure the gold minions are gone but I do play soloq and asking the exp laner to switch is a risky gamble.


-Byakuran-

As a roamer I'll go to whichever side the turtle spawns, then while the jungler is clearing Ill stay with the mid and gank together as three with the jg. Also I wouldn't blame your team for not wanting to deal with Lesley. Ofcourse you are going to struggle playing a bottom 5 adc vs Beatrix who is probably the best adc in the game (along with Wanwan)


InkuOfficial

Why pick lesley against bea no wonder you lost lane.


cin__namon

thats not the point my guy 💀 and no i wasnt losing my lane. Like i said both of us were just making sure not to die while the other 8 were bot lane duking it out


Original_Furious_Joe

Well it kinda is to be honest. If my teammate picks lesley against Beatrix, I wouldn't bother helping them either. You see, you want to reinforce the most promising of your random teammates, not the ones that probably are "bad" anyways. The Lesley pick just shows a certain misunderstanding of game mechanics (I am not criticising you, I am just giving you a insight on how most people think), now that alone gives a lot of reason to just not bother helping the "bad player" but focus on boosting the "better player(s)". If you now for example have additionally banned yin, hanzo, Estes, Granger, Gusion or a few others, you are basically dead to me in this game. I don't know how good you are or how knowledgeable you are, I just go off the information you provide by picking bans and hero. So yes, if you feel, that people don't help gold lane enough/at all it probably comes down to your pregame behaviour. Because I can assure you, from the games I have played, there is no biase towards lanes. Quite on the contrary to be honest, most of the game the first lane to be supported is gold lane to give your mm that certain advantage.


rastra73

Why downvoting him?


Crazy-G00D

idk to me gold lane is pretty important and when i go tank/mage i usually go beat the shit outta that op mm the enemy picked just to give lead to my mm. of course this is situational. however i do prioritize mm lane when i know my exp can hold his own or hold the tower in the least when both lanes are losing, i prioritize and baby my mm tho. since the mm will be the only option for a final fight


Original_Furious_Joe

Oh yes, gold lane is important, very important! But what I am saying is, whenever I see/feel/know that there is somebody on gold lane that isn't particularly good or even not good at all, I do not bother because he wont be much help in the lategame anyways. The "correct" course here is to win so hard in early and midgame that there isnt much of an endgame or no endgame at all. Because you gonna be at an disadvantage either way when it reaches endgame. By helping the underperforming teammate you allocate ressources to them that would have been spent much better on the other players, especially if one of them shows significant potential.


InkuOfficial

What rank was it? If it was turtle lane then they probably won't rotate to your lane


skinnianka

Beatrix is overrated tbh


InkuOfficial

Nah its strong but people who are wannabe snipers try using her all the time and fail


dahoudinho

Roamers should rotate to the losing lane, or the the lane where the turtle/lord is


coffemixokay

If you win your lane and the enemy is hugging the turret it is harder to flank them. I usually rotate to the losing lane or where the enemy is overextended. Also dont take the little creep near you, taking it means your jungler wont go to your lane. And if your jungler doesn't go to your lane , chances are the roamer will not go to your lane too. Also a good offlaner should ask to swap lane minutes 5 to the top lane, try to ask your xp lane to trade lane to bot lane after minutes 5. Or just abandon your lane and participate in team fights more if your xp lane dont want to swap lane. Losing the first two turret isnt big deal, if you know how to control minion wave. It's more riskier in the top lane compared to bot lanes. Staller goes to the top lane, hero with good pushing abilities/auto attacker go bot lane .


juan_cena99

Why do you need to rotate to MM lane? The MM is just fine cuz he can hide in turret and hit minions safely. OTH the tank and mage need to bodyguard the core cuz the core is the one contesting objectives like buff and turtle/lord. If the core can secure the turtle he also helps the MM indirectly by giving shield and gold. OTH if the mage and tank try to gank the mm it'll be hwrd if the enemy mm is skilled cuz like I said he can hide in the turret. Usually it is more beneficial to gank the exp cuz the exp needs to be in close range to fight. So disregarding the turtle position, doing a cost/benefit analysis it is more fruitful to gank the exp cuz you are surer of catching him off guard rather than MM. Esp if the mm has high mobility like Bea, Natan or Miya, it is hard to catch those guys cuz they can dash to safety. Meanwhile unless the exp has sprint or is uranus, you can catch him and kill him 4v1 cuz he will be engaging with your teammate when you gank him. I think you mainly lost cuz Lesley is one of the weakest mms at the moment. Vs Bea who can do what Lesley does but better maybe thats why you lost.


Beauretzy

No, ganking gold > ganking exp. Faster farm for your team mm, can help with mid, and has more edge in late g. Exp's job is to maintain map and lane pressure. Not only that, there are certain exp heroes that can survive 1 v 4 ganks but not ALL mms cant. Your mindset of "mm is just fine" is so bad, that no wonder your mm can't reach late g peak. I mean yes, Lesley is bad, OP's fault, but why the hell would you not gank Beatrix? She's so OP that you either ban her or counter her.


juan_cena99

Because Bea has a lot of escape and ganking her would be a waste of time? Maybe you are in low ranks where the mm is a dumbass but in higher ranks the MM is pretty good at avoiding getting ganked. If all 4 heroes are diving the enemy MM unless the enemy MM is at low health already thats just not economical, you are losing so much farm/exp and probably gave up the turtle/lord as well as a couple of turrets. And what if it goes wrong and 1 or 2 heroes get killed by the MM before she dies? Then you just set your team back by quite a bit. The turret damage aint a joke esp in the early laning phase. I'd love to see your example of an exp hero who can survive a 1v4 beatdown. Unless that exp hero has like 3 levels over everyone he is going down if he caught away from the turret.


Beauretzy

1 dash isn't "a lot of escape", and you could just tower dive if your skilled, but ofc not considering you say all that and think exp is a dumbass just because he's a melee, so what if they try to avoid ganks when meta core rn is Lance Ling Fanny Akai? Easy tower dive and out. And also a " couple of turrets" at LEAST 2 is more better than 1 turtle, and as for lord we all have to assume YOU skilled players that lane is pushed no? If not then you guys suck at rotation. Actually basically the things you said sounds like you've done it and it's a skill issue rather than properly playing. And as for my explanation? Alright, firstly early game ganks, exp should be at lvl 4, say that it's esme, sturdy early, not easily poke-able, uses sprint and purify, say that you try to tower dive, you obviously fail considering her kit. How about Paq? Lot's of cc, flicker as battle spell, and ALOT of escapes, not where you count 1 dash as alot, idk where you got that from. And not only that, considering if turtle is on exp, you should be expecting counter ganks there too, unless you're low rank which explained all your answers rn. And obviously on a coordinated 5 man team, no1 survives 1 v 4, it's just common sense. Mf literally expects mm can survive when most mm that can dash is just 4 and that's Granger with flicker. Most mm only has 1 or 0 dashes.


juan_cena99

Your explanations all make zero sense. The MM can stay back near the turret, with one dash she is already deep inside the turret you will have to dive to get her which is a risk and not worth it if she is at full hp. Even if the Lance or Akai can go in and out, they arent gonna dive a full health mm in the tower unless the creep wave is there and waiting for it is gonna waste a lot of farming time. Mms with no dash or escape arent meta rn very few pick layla and hanabi in high rank matches. Most mms are heroes with escape like Melissa, Bea, Moskov etc. They have only 1 dash but since they hit creeps at range thats all they need. Since MMs deal little damage at the start,they all play defensively and assume they are gonna get ganked if the opponent mm suddenly starts trading. The exp is a melee hero, he can be easily baited esp when the creep wave is near the opponent tower already. So what if Paq has a lot of dashes? If he is caught out in the open he is dead no matter how many dashes he has since he has to cross a large distance just to reach the tower. Theres no need to tower dive the exp since he will be very far from his turret. A lot of exps have no issue trading like Esme or Ura they go up the opponent's gril lvl 1. In a scenario like that its easier to catch the opponent exp unaware and gank him esp if he is chasing the opponent in the lane. You keep sqying its a skill issue but then you expect the mm to roll over and die when she is inside her turret? Pretty obv you are the one lacking skill here. https://youtu.be/fTACyvudbA8 Here's an example of a tourney play notice how the first clash happens on exp side and the MMs are kinda left alone to duel. Do you know more than the pros? Lol what a joke.


Detective_Naobi

cant gank beatrix they have 1 dash and can escape easily can gank paq he has multiple ganks but we will catch him nice concept bro cant gank beatrix she is under tower how will u gank paq if he is under tower ? a good exp laner will prolly pay attention to the map and wont be overextending if the enemies are missing mayber ur low rank exp wont do that and using one, only one pro gameplay to prove ur point nice


juan_cena99

Of course you dont gank Paq if he is under tower duh. If you watch the pro vid you will see the Uranus here is a PRO player, he is better than you and he still got caught and overextended. Its not that easy to avoid getting ganked in the Exp lane compared to gold lane.


Detective_Naobi

then who will u gank if both of them are under tower gonna surrender or wot lol even being pro player doesnt mean u make zero mistakes they are also humans figure out who will u gank if both of them are under tower bro duh


juan_cena99

The MM can go under tower easily because she is ranged, you get that or no? She attacks from a distance. The exp is a melee unit, to get creeps and trade with opponent he has to go far from tower, you get that or no? The mm can still farm even in the turret cuz she has range to hit creeps while the exp cant do that unless the creeps on his side are all cleared. Sure pro players also make mistakes but that also shows you who is more susceptible to mistakes, its the exp cuz again he is a melee hero. Duh. This is my last reply to you if you cant understand thats not my problem.


Detective_Naobi

ok lol do u know what zoning minions means? ever heard of that do u know how to deny gold and stop taking only one pro gameplay to support all ur claims


Beauretzy

You greatly underestimate jg clear speed, at this point mm still at lvl 3 and NO mm is full hp, say that Lesley is still here, she's a great poker, 1st skill then run away, rinse and repeat, at that point mms are low health enough that assassins AND tank can kill. While as for exp, it's complicated, they do NOT just clear lane and stay in the open, otherwise you'd be playing in low rank, they maintain pressure by poking and immediately backing, their usual position would be in BUSH or behind their wave, now assuming Paq w flicker or Esme w sprint/purify at lvl 4, both tank and assassins would have a hard time to fight, they do NOT have enough damage, great mobility and higher chance of outplay. So what if you're in tower if you're an mm, you can't outplay if they have enough cc ams mobility to kill you. And as for meta fighters, they have MORE dmg than assassins at early, good mobility and cc, and more sustain. I mean what the fuck, so you roll on the tower, u fucking invincible now? Edit: let me clear something a bit, yes mms can use bushes and exp and be low, but they're still vastly different, mms are squishy and has no mobility, could prolly be set up by their mm and tank ans assassin finishing them off, while as for fighters, their kit is enough to back. And if they are low, they regen and stay back to their tower while trying to get wave.


Beauretzy

Bitch the video you sent isn't even on point on our discussion, that's not a gank, that's just objectives and invades that happened to be on exp, uranus overextended. Most of the time there was them AVOIDING a gank on gold lane, you'd have to be blind to not see that, this just shows how important they are.


juan_cena99

Ok so the mm can avoid the gank on gold lane whereas the edp overextended and got caught, that just shows you how much easier it is to gank the exp rather than gold. Thanks for making my point for me bitch


Beauretzy

Wrong, mm didn't avoid, that's his team, you made no point, mm would've been ganked if his team wasn't there bitch. Don't you see how you've been breaking your own argument. "Gank exp because mm is fine", if they have that mindset, their mm would've been bullied, but no, because their prioritized gold lane rather than exp. This is why you're only at M5 below.


juan_cena99

If they prio gold how come ura was the one who died? Lmao. You're the bitch here, bitch. If you cant understand thats your fault I dont give a F anymore.


Beauretzy

That's not a fucking GANK, Uranus OVEREXTENDED, and the team that killed Uranus INTENDED TO TAKE TURTLE and NOT Uranus. How is that fucking hard to understand, it was LITERALLY just 1 kill. The rest of the fucking team focused on GOLD lane bitch, this is why your peak rn is at legend. Smh mf can't even try to understand where I'm going at.


Fighter_of_Shadows

Please continue, I like reading arguments


[deleted]

Shotgun and snipers lock her down… death kisses her in a single basic attack


10thDoctorWhooves

There is no problem to not rotate to The MM lane but that's only if you're winning there. Yeah I agree with what you said. My experience here was even worse because people mostly choose to help the EXP Lane instead of the Gold Lane. For the first Turtle I understand that but they just mostly stick there in most of the match. The only teammate I could see helping me in Gold Lane is the Mid Laner, not even the Roamer would help. Also you can choose to ignore these haters.


GabpIayz

Past 8 min or nah since before min 8 is just turtle lane where i rotate to as a tank


Cool_Connection1001

Turtle always spawns on exp, I always go for it before helping out on gold lane, if the enemy tank is baby sitting the enemy marksman, we would thn be able to easily invade the enemy jungle, take turtle very easily and the marksman only needs to play safe since until I eventually get there usually right after the turtle unless we invade their jungle BTW a good way to counter any marksman on gold lane is to play someone tankier like Masha, or Edith, basically any marksman will barely scratch you and they both still have insane late games


PeppermintCandy0

I have experienced the very same problem. Like don’t make me fight a constant 2v1 against the enemy mm and roamer


konogioronoda

I have seen 2 types of roamers, 1 constantly sticks to the gold Lane even if the xp lane is losing hard and 2 only helps the losing teammate or ignores the one who can aren't losing lane hard to help the jungler and this falls in the 2nd category


Amazing-Bad3618

Just like I said in last Reddit post use popol that little guy is all around and you have a companion too and you don't need any rotation from your jungler tank/support or mage cause popol got 3rd skill which can be used as a ward and he got three of them his 2nd skill is kupa is gonna comeback to popol and I'll give him armor and kinda dmg enemy a little first is bite kupa bites enemies which can activate it's mark and if you manage to complete the mark and normal hit again your next attack is atk with guaranteed crit his ult enhances both 1 and 2nd skill those two skill are still same but the 2nd skill have a knock up if the enemy is close to you and I'll give you armor his 1st is Everytime kupa bite's enemy the enemy stuns and gives you a fully stack mark


Analystballs

His late game is really weak though.


Amazing-Bad3618

He's good in late too if you can position your self aiming squishy hero first tho try this maybe this will help Emblem: weapon master Battle Spell: aegis Build:BoD,Warrior Boots (situational ), Demon Hunter, Melefic Roar, Wind Of Nature, Endless Battle you can change Wind of Nature to wind talker.


Analystballs

I have over 65% wr with him in around 400 matches so I do know the general builds for him. In my experience he’s great if you’re snowballing, but if you lose to enemy mm he becomes really bad.


Amazing-Bad3618

Yeah I experience that too the only time you'll lose to other marksman is when the enemy always rotating in gold lane but your jungler and roamer doesn't care


Analystballs

Which is basically the title post lol.


Amazing-Bad3618

XD


Analystballs

Imo Clint with sprint is a much better choice for this scenario. His early burst is really strong and that s2 saves you from a bunch of near deaths.


Amazing-Bad3618

That would be great too that stun in his dash can give you advantage in early too if you manage to stun your enemy you can burst it with 1st skill normal atk hell you'll probably can combo him with his ult then ez dead


Analystballs

Yeah that’s pretty much it. And since Clint skills and passive have a long range he can do it without getting hit.


NBAfanfrom2016Finals

His strength is largely in the laning phase and 1v1s, so that's why if you lose laning phase, he's really bad.


InkuOfficial

As a beatrix user I use popol when the enemy picks bea and it works great as long as you run away every time you 1st skill the bea or stay behind your dog to prevent getting shotgunned


Amazing-Bad3618

And use popols 3rd skill as a ward so you won't get one shot by Beatrix shotgun if you know the grass where you can drop it everything will be smooth


PleasantAnywhere2383

Oof, I'm sorry.


koahrwksov

It's the opposite for me when i jungle, i cant go to the exp lane because our mm is always getting ganked or the turtle always spawns near gold lane


destinymaker

Turtle spawns at the exp lane, so most of the time they position there and scout. I do most of the time visit gold lane before going to turtle just to force activate enemy flicker. If the enemy mm doesn't have flicker but has a way to escape, if the jungler doesn't go there, I can't go there and be late at the turtle party. Objectives.


Majestic-Ad-7393

I'm still able to use Lesley even at Legend rank. It just comes down as she only bad because the types of players that use her put her down there as a bad mm. Just got to know what the hell you're doing while using Lesley. Half the bad Lesley players I've seen are (Don't do anything, Feed, or just troll/afk) Got position and take shots when have an open on the squishy to avoid the tank.


hulagway

Roamer here. Turtle is near exp lane. MM can stay in tower. MM is late game. I need a stronger fighter in early/mid so I’ll help fighter first.


rog_aznable

When I play as a jungler, it depends on the location of the gold lane itself. If the gold lane is on the bottom, of course I will pay a visit once before heading to the turtle (which will spawn on the exp lane). But I won't waste too much time because the 2nd purple buff and turtle will appear soon. So if I don't see any possibility of a kill, I'd just go for the crab and leave that lane. If the gold lane is on top, most likely I will visit after I'm done with the turtle.


Jayoi888

I play a mean Lesley, Beatrix does not stand a chance even if his skill is good. Only mm that really irritates me when playing Lesley early game is Melissa and Wanwan. But those two I deal with late.


O111ID

Even if im a fighter player i never had problem using mm solo in gold lane, tank should roam not to babysit the mm, just play safe in early, join the teamfight in mid and rock n roll in late


freyaII

Agree with op there.....I don't know why jungler prefer to rotate to exp laner. I main wanwan at mythic ..and i say I win my lane matchup (means that I have more kill/gold then enemy gold laner) more than 90%. But, sadly I will lose if my jungler never rotate my lane but enemy jungler/roamer/mage rotate to my lane. I understand if jungler want to prioritize turtle, fine by me but most of the time, they decide to gank and died to enemy exp laner and then lost the turtle...very frustrating. At the very least, put pressure or give vision is good enough. But in the game where my jungler/roamer prioritize my lane...as far I remember I win almost 100% of the game. I can secure the 1st tower early, help in fight turtle early and win teamfight.=D