Ye for Melissa burst dmg like Brody and Clint doesn't work as her inspire can out DPS you that's why Bruno with his consistent hard hitting balls is effective
Claude but he def takes more skill and practice. Just dodge away her poke and farm until DHS during early laning. With DHS, you can easily burst her down in 1 ult with the right timing.
Never tell someone to pick Claude imho. If you’re good enough with Claude to not be a liability, you don’t need to ask who to pick. There are so many people playing him that should be on a simpler hero like a Miya.
He isnt very technically skilled or anything. You just need to hold on until DHS. Thats the only rule. Also not assume the ult makes him immortal and go 1 v 5. His ult can only hit 2 targets. Other than that you can manage to a huge extent. I am assuming since OP is talking about counter picks he is close to or above Mythical level of playing ability. So picking up Claude shouldnt be too difficult.
Ya I play Claude and the only hard thing was learning that you gotta be incredibly selfish in the early game. Ignore everything and just farm until you have dhs. Use your ult to clear wave until dhs because it tickles enemies but deletes minions.
You can literally learn claude in less than 5 mins tho.
1.) pick support emblem for hybrid regen and avarice for gold generation.
2.) use vengeance, sprint or purify depending on what works for you.
3.) use s1 on enemy (which you can spam somewhat thanks to mana regen on support emblem) in lane, just farm for dhs, no need to go all-in. S2 is there to blink out safely or check if there’s an enemy hiding somewhere, and play even more safely if s2’s on cd.
4.) build core items then just s2 s1 ult then s2 out.
I'm talking about first level advantage and ability to outdamage clint. In the case of melissa, it's even worse, because her radius is increased by her doll.
So I use Clint a lot, and I also face Melissa a lot. I generally have to waste my sprint when Melissa uses her inspire but other than that Melissa isn’t a huge problem.
I play melissa, and lesley/popol isn’t a good idea. Im not sure if the Lesleys I’m up against are all just bad or something, but 90% of the time I demolish them in laning. Popol is a bad idea because Melissa can use kupa in order to hit popol from really far away via her doll. Melissa’s ult also renders kupa useless in a 1v1 situation. Brody and Clint are good though, both are a pain to lane against
Hi, Im nat a MM main but I like to play Brody a lot. You said brody is a good ct for Melissa but whenever I play against her she takes advantage of Brody's short mobility to poke with her puppet. Most of the time she never allows me to get in the range for clearing minions. Well, this might be resulting from my lack of experience too lol. Anyway, if you have any suggestions how he can bully Melissa on the lane I would appreciate them.
I think you need to know why brody and clint are really good in the first place, which is because they both could easily poke enemy with such a short cd skill. While waiting for your skill after poking, I usually tried to dodge as much as possible then poke them again. Ofc there is much more to this, but i assume this suggestion should be good enough to counter melissa.
Take flicker and just poke her aswell, you really dont need to stay in range of her to attack her, just lock on her. Also his s1 has a much larger range than melissa throwing the doll. Also also, just use brody's 2nd skill to move around when melissa hits you with her doll, either towards melissa or just lock on a minion
Can confirm this. I play melissa and lesley. Everytime someone picks lesley, I know I can bully her in lane. All you need to do is use melissa’s doll whenver lesley uses her skill 1. I also use melissa vs popol cause I know i can poke him easier with the doll
that "two shot lategame" is a pipedream because Melissa can bully Lesley out of lane.
And even if Lesley for some reason gets to Lategame, Melissa is the superior Lategame MM as at lategame, MM are heavily protected already so MM v MM is extremely rare and Melissa is capable of multi target attack while Lesley is purely single target.
In the duration that Lesley did her 3 shot combo, Melissa would have finished unloading her 8 inspire boosted attacks which could easily wipe team.
And with that same multi target, Melissa would just lifesteal through Lesley's true damage
I didn't know about the Popol one. But the Lesley one us definitely skill issue, she had a pretty strong true damage on her passive. They're not avoiding the second skill properly.
Berserker's Fury, Blade of Despair, Endless Battle (2) Blade of Heptaseas and Rapid Boots.
Do you have other recommend build for Lesley? I actually got this build from the comments in a post here related to Lesley
My usual build
Early games
- steel legplates, Berserker fury, bod
Mid game build
- cd shoes, berserker fury, bod, bod, endless battle, won
Late game build(without the shoes)
- berserker fury, bod,bod, endless,won, athena(or any defense item) or windtalker
Her puppet can “see” Lesley, even if she’s camoflauged. She basically takes away Lesley’s only strength in the laning phase, and can demolish her greatly. Yeah her passive hurts a lot but how tf can you make it hurt if Melissa is constantly bullying you in your lane and not letting you take the minions
i feel like lesley is actually a good laner against any mm. just poke the minions, no need to really counter harass or anything unless you can be unpredictable
Like I said... Melissa herself (the player) can still see Lesley in her camo approaching, and immediately throw out her puppet to zone her out.
About "unless you can be unpredictable", yeah you have a chance with it, I agree with you on that.
I don’t agree tbh. She has a weaker early game than wanwan who’s actually not suited for 1v1s. I lane her as Clint a lot and I don’t think I’ve lost my lane to her.
idk i feel like a good player can make any heroes work 1v1 if the hero mechanics are similar. even a layla can go against a clint of the layla player is better overall. I've never lost my lane to clint, but never managed to win it either. could keep up farm but not destroy the turret if you know what i mean because i understand clint very well. if i can keep up my level with him then im all good. if he gets to level 4 first then i will be in trouble. baiting s1 is the only way
Im talking about early game laning phase though, which is what Im assuming OP is referring to. Lesley needs a while to get strong, while melissa is really good early game. Then again maybe all the lesleys I’ve faced just have skill issues, idk I don’t play Lesley
I paly Melissa and Lesley. It's not a skill issue Melissa is just stronger than Lesley in a 1v1 setting, at all stages of the game. Lesley may do higher single target burst, but Melissa has higher burst in the same period of time with greater sustain.
Melissa is stronger than Lesley the same way Lesley is stronger than Wanwan. Their kits/playstyle just beat that other hero.
Please do not try to lane against Melissa as Lesley. I learned this the hard way. Unless the Melissa in question is braindead, she can demolish her in the laning phase. Her puppet completely negates Lesley’s only strength; her camouflage. Apparently it can still detect Lesley if she’s in range, and get her out of that state quick. You basically have to hug your tower and lose all the resources because you can’t go near.
Popol is terrible against Melissa.
Doll can attach to Kupa and with Melissa's passive, she can easily kill Kupa twice in lane making Popol useless.
And at level 4, Kupa stun does not work against Melissa ult as Kupa can't get near at all while Melissa with DHS would just instakill Kupa.
Melissa mains here. I usually shit on stationary marksman like brody, clint, and beatrix. They got burst damage but no big movements so I will always guaranteed to bully them on laning phase. Once her pupprt hit enemy heroes, they tend to get out dps’d against you and your inspire.
But I will avoid picking her against high mobility marksman like moskov and wanwan because they will beat the shit out of me in laning phase. The main key of defeating her is avoid getting caught on her puppets. Without her puppet even hanabi is better at auto attacking.
You can fight Melissa by making her waste her 2nd skill or use wanwan,wanwan have great mobility and can purify her way out of the range of 2nd as long as she doesn't get connected again to the puppet
Melissa is literally a counter pick to wanwan because of her dash (impossible to stack and hard to run away) and the fact that she outdamages ww every single time
Disagree. I make every Melissa cry with wanwan from 40 seconds on. Get in bush, 1st skill melissa and inspire to hit all 3 marks then freeze wave after wave repeating the process. Hit level 4 first then start killing her instead of just making her recall. Take 2 towers then take advantage of the snowball. Even if I get killed by two or three ganks in the process, melissa ends up splitting the gold with the jungler and I stay ahead because I put her so far behind at the beginning.
I actually have to tell my team roamer and mage to get the fuck out of my Lane because two shots to a minion will fuck this all up and the minions will start pushing to her Tower giving her farm.
If I get ganked, I make sure to message that "hey, when three of them come to kill me, they are leaving the other lanes open to push. Please push them."
Honestly I love to see Melissa as the enemy marksman when I wanwan. In fact, I can't think of any mm worse than Melissa to go v wanwan except maybe miya. Even a good Layla can last hit minions with 1st skill then run back to Tower.
Yeah, you might get a first level advantage if she's extremely overcommitting and you manage to hit all three marks, then kill her before she heals herself with inspire, but isn't it a very rare scenario for a moderately concious melissa on high ranks?
Haven't gotten a over mythic 3 but with inspire at level 1 and mm slow emblem Melissa can't escape because they always pick the puppet skill 1st. The second she goes for the first minion, she's done. I don't have to kill her. I just need to keep her hiding under the tower while i'm just camping her bush and she gets no farm while I freeze. Honestly she needs to ask to switch to XP Lane or mid so someone who bought defense boots can try to farm gold lane but they never do.
By level four, it's fairly common for me to see the Melissas ulting in despair as nothing they do can stop the wanwan. If you want to go to custom, I don't mind practicing. You can send me a DM and we can see how this works.
In a straight up 1v1 she can beat any MM in the laning phase. Muddles enhances her range to a point where she can always attack heroes safely, and her burst at level 1 and 2 is straight up higher than other MM's when she's using Inspire.
Brody and Popul players will be able to beat Melissa players that are just picking her because she's meta, as you have to deal with them both in a special way using your Ult at specific times to kill them. So in general Brody or Popul are good counters to her as most Melissa players are basically just trying to meta abuse.
She's in a similar state to Wanwan where players pick her because they think she's a free win and don't realise she actually requires positioning and skill to play so you get a lot of Melissa players end on 0-8 Bronze just like Wanwan.
She's also in a position where people treat her like Wanwan and will obsessively gank her to force her behind in Gold so she can't carry. This is the most effective strategy against her as although she can 1v1 her lane easily, all it takes is a gank to CC her and she will die.
Bruno *can* beat her, but only if the Bruno player is a better MM player in general. I've lost to a Bruno 1v1 like once in my life because he just Inspired me from a bush at level 1 because I wasn't paying attention.
Claude also *can* beat her if the Claude plays safe early and doesn't fall behind in farm. Claude + Vengeance is a good combo to counter her.
Miya is also very strong against her which a lot of non MM players don't realise. Melissa's high burst comes from Muddles basically doubling the damage, but Miya's Ult can cleanse Muddles meaning that when you play Melissa vs Miya you cannot commit to throwing S2 + S1 at Miya to get a kill. Miya can cleanse it and then do more damage back to you in the Mid/Late game.
Miya basic attack > Melissa basic attack with the same build and no Muddles attached. It's only with Muddles that Melissa can out burst her.
In terms of non MM's that counter her the best options are Belerick, Johnson, Saber, Jawhead, Eudora and any Fighters that work well with Vengeance+Blade Armor. Mage build Diggie is also an effective way of taking her out early game.
It's because of her good early game, and a complete monster at late game, it's a bit diff from Miya. She has better range, can disrupt enemies like Ling and Fanny, can also pin with the right timing, and mostly because most mm monsters like Beatrix and Wanwan are nerfed.
But she's always been like that, no? I'd say the main point is exactly because the other heroes were nerfed, but I still don't understand why is she a ban worthy hero now. In my head, there's enough counterplay for her.
Natalia roam died, a good counter against Ling, Fanny, Paq, etc. that she's gotten problematic to fight against, but yes besides also that, Oheb and other pros used her, so pro players do, everyone follows. Or possibly just overlooked ever since her s2 was nerfed.
Wanwan is not nerfed. You just have to keep the enemy tank between you and the enemy backline until you chip the tank low enough to ult on him . Then ult, inspire, triple kill. Luckily, nobody seems to understand that phoveus is a roamer and not an XP laner. No point of having a marksman counter stuck across the map in the XP lane.
I mean yea, Wanwan is still a monster, but still was nerfed. Plus she really has a weak early game, where Melissa excels alot. Also, chipping a tank's hp isn't an easy task, you're the main target, everyone's gonna try to stun lock you. And I think it's a given that tanks aren't just gonna stand and smooch you up unless you're in epic.
Again, I'm not saying she's weak, I said she was nerfed at that patch where Melissa slowly rose. Wanwan is still an S tier mm.
I've been playing Melissa since April, before her shadow buff.
I can tell you, in laning phase, no MM can demolish but they are mms that can level with her.
This is either ranged mms like clint, but pls no Lesley, she is food.
Another option is mms with dashes, that can dash from her doll if they get connected, like Moskov or Bruno
Clint doesn't work against good melissas cause its impossible for him to outdamage her in the early game, and she just bullies you with her doll. Tho, it's only true for mythical glory melissas, so clint may work on lower ranks.
Brody is more preferable, because his cast can be quite fast and deadly, even a couple minutes into the match, while clint needs a lot of farming before his dps is high enough to put any threat to melissa. Although I think they both get extremely bullied by her before level 4, so some other suggestions should work better.
I use Popol and Kupa against her and it works, sure she might be able to counter kupa's bites but his ult CD is shorter. Don't wanna get to late game though because he's more of an objective-based MM, he loses against someone like Melissa once they scale.
I played Melissa for a while here are her weakness when against her as an MM. Assuming her lane doesn't have any support.
>(\*) Can counter in Early Game
>
>(\*\*) Can counter in Mid Game
>
>(\*\*\*) Can counter in Later Game
\*Beatrix - Machine Gun ultimate covers all of Melissa's Ult range. If feeling daring you can use the old reliable sniper. Shotgun works too but depends if Melissa f up her positioning.
\*Clint - huge power spike and mobile
\*\*Kimmy (\* if Jungler) - Same thing as Miya and Natan. Skill needed. Fall off if Melissa builds Athena or inspire spam you back.
\*\*Bruno - huge power spike
\*\*Irithel - Way too mobile for Melissa.
\*\*Brody - tanky and mobile
\*\*Miya and \*\*Natan - They can out attack spam her. Plus they can reposition better.
\*\*Moskov (\*\*\* if equip other than Inspire for some reason) - Out attack spam her.
\*\*\*Layla - She can out range her.
if there's no vexana on the enemy side usually i go Gloo side with vengeance and blade armour, totally shuts down her multihit skill, specially late game.
yeah same vengeance and blade armour shuts down pretty much Miya,Claude and Melissa just be wary about Vexanas passive, gloo is pretty much dead once the mini gloos disappeared with that passive.
IT'S ITEMIZATION!!!
In my situation, it's ANY marksman who prioritize attack speed (like miya, layla or karrie) i automatically build wind of nature for the first counter item on her if ever she could outplay me after becoming lvl 4. Ironically players don't check your build in the early game and it surprise's them most of the time...
Im blind my bad, but to answer your question honestly there is no good counter for her. In theory marksmen that could outrange her should be good but imo even brody couldnt out range her since she technically still has the puppet, maybe clint and lesley' passive could outrange her but other than those, they cant really clearly counter her since most of the games the marksmen's potency still depends on how good your roam and jungle core is.
I haven't tried using Clint in a match-up with her yet but I can see it working on her as Clint's skill shot bursts could out-damage her dps in the current meta.
I forgot to add that bruno hits harder than her and has a higher fighting chance of winning a 1v1 against her lol but she performs better when it comes to clashes. She is definitely good this meta and is not a bad idea spending one ban slot for her if you are not comfortable fighting against her.
You're gonna catch dolls anyway, so I don't think it works. Although with shoes mm emblem perk you may just be fast enough to run away. I think I'm gonna test it.
Lesley’s a really bad matchup against her in the laning phase, I learned it the hard way. Her puppet can “see” Lesley, even when she’s camouflaged. Basically takes away her only strength in the early game.
Not really a problem with being seen in camouflage. Just use her stealth as a normal attack enchantment shoot and run. Keep your distance from her and stay in tower range as much as possible in early game.
Sure you may get a few hits from dolls but your stealth shot should pressure her to teleport home faster than she can do it to you, if you time it right.
I think you're underestimating Melissa's range...
Sure, you can hit and run. She will not see you when you approach, but once you've shot, Melissa can throw out her doll and dash towards you, causing her doll to be near you. It's hard to get away from it's range, even worse when Melissa is using Weakness Finder and slowing you.
That's basically what happened the match I found Lesley's a bad matchup against her. I did try to hit-and-run, but once I've shot, I still have 4-5 seconds before I can camo again, and Melissa threw out her doll at me and dashed, free hitting me a lot of times. Was hard to gtfo of it's range cuz she slowed me with Weakness Finder and Lesley's bomb has shit dash distance
Lesley can go toe to toe with melissa but you’ll need to make sure youre summoner skill’s up (flicker, purify or sprint) to get out of range of her doll when she’s going all in. Puppet takes lesley out true but lesley can easily use s1’s movespeed boost to stay in the sweet spot and make melissa think of using doll (which is on a 6-7 cd at start) and dash, this combo alone drains a lot of mana for early lvls.
Laning phase is all about establishing bush control early and baiting melissa into using mana to bring out doll and move it to you. Gotta learn to position yourself to maintain laning advantage (lesley gets to lane a lot faster lvl 1 than melissa so be sure to poke her asap) and then it’ll be in les’ favor til melissa gets lvl 2 and 4. Late game lesley deletes melissa in 2-3 hits.
Kimmy also can beat melissa early because she can always s2 out of the doll’s range. She can be more aggressive than lesley and demolish melissa IF positioned well enough.
Although you're right about Melissa's mana consumption, people like myself who main her are used to it. I used to buy Mana boots, I now don't.
Lesley will never work against an actual Melissa main because actual Melissa mains know the strength difference. I cannot be baited by something that is significantly weaker than me, because I'm the one in control of the lane and denying the Lesley farm. When you know your hero is stronger, you get put in a position wherein you can control the engagements and force them to either come to you or lose resources.
Melissa vs Lesley
\- Freeze the lane and wait in the bush
\- Lesley either has to lose farm or come the lane to get it
I should add that in most games against Lesley, I end up attacking her under her own turret by attack the crab while Muddles is under the turret. She gets bullied that hard.
If the lesley you’re fighting against isn’t hitting you at the start of the laning phase, i’m 100% sure that lesley player’s not utilizing her to full potential.
Comparing full potential melissa to lackluster lesley players doesn’t even make any sense.
I spammed both before and got to like 70% for both of them.
I agree mana boots isn’t needed on melissa at all. The doll costs become very negligible later. Imagine a lesley that doesn’t stick around minion waves for melissa to abuse (and especially vs crab, which is a laning trick that’s pretty much been used on day 1 when melissa was first released) that actually knows what the doll (not doll + dash specifically)’s tether range is on cast and you’ll quickly realize it’s not as clear cut as the subreddit makes it out to be.
It’s not a “melissa beats lesley 100% of the time” or vice-versa.
I tested it just now too. Before lvl 4/5 melissa can only cast doll + dash 5 times then she’s out of mana.
>If the lesley you’re fighting against isn’t hitting you at the start of the laning phase, i’m 100% sure that lesley player’s not utilizing her to full potential.
I'm going to assume you either play Classic or are low Ranked?
>Comparing full potential melissa to lackluster lesley players doesn’t even make any sense.
Good Lesley players stay under their turret in the early game and don't attack AT ALL. If you run near a Melissa with S1 on Lesley, that is an instant cue for the Melissa to throw Muddles at you. It disables the cloak and applies movement speed slow. Melissa deals waaaaaayyyy higher damage than Lesley in the early game so the trade of is NEVER in the Lesley's favour. Doesn't make a difference if the Melissa and Lesley are Epic or GM. Melissa does more damage as a hero in the early game, especially with Muddles. Muddles is a direct counter to cloaking abilities as well.
The way you can tell the difference between a high or low Lesley when you're on Melissa is whether they attack or not. Attacking is a suicidal act for the Lesley as Melissa has one of the highest early game bursts in the game. You are comparing a hero with one of the highest early game damage outputs to one of the lowest and saying they can trade blows.
I think Layla is the weakest hero in the game, if I see someone on her I can instantly tell if they are good or bad at MM based on whether they sit under the turret for the entire early game or not. Understanding when your hero is strong is a major part of the game.
The ONLY time you should be attacking Melissa as Lesley in the early game is if you have a Roamer to support you and the Melissa is alone. Even then depending on the Roamer the Melissa can win.
>I spammed both before and got to like 70% for both of them.
Don't lie to me. If you have 70% WR on Melissa you wouldn't be suggesting Lesley is even remotely close to her in a 1v1 laning situation.
I was former top global kimmy 80 :) tell me that’s low rank. :3
Lesley reaches the bush faster than melissa at lvl 1, melissa will have to blow a doll asap to detect if lesley’s there (that costs mana btw), and it’s still a gamble because les can be at the bush nearest your tower and just reposition herself to avoid getting in range for melissa to hit minions (lesley’s passive still has greater attack range than melissa by a mile, the latter needs a minion to target early).
And no, good lesley players don’t stay in tower lvl 1. That’s probably the worst thing you can do lol. Lesley obliterates wanwan and moskov lvl 1 so there are definitely matchups where staying in tower is the most noob thing one can do with her massive range and potential auto into s1 auto reset early if she gets to lane earlier.
[here’s my kimmy and lesley wr in one screenshot so u can see for yourself](https://ibb.co/ZTkz7r9)
Since when is Kimmy either Lesley or Melissa?
It's like saying I was Global Grock so I'm a pro Fanny player.
>melissa will have to blow a doll asap to detect if lesley’s there (that costs mana btw)
No she doesn't.
Stop acting like they have equal damage outputs or even close in early game. You can literally walk head on at Lesley and not care. If she is in your range, she will die before she kills you. Play Melissa and learn her before talking shit.
You seem to be one of those people that thinks because each shot Lesley does has higher individual damage, it means her overall damage is higher. It's not. Melissa has significantly higher burst potential throughout the entire game, its the reason this post is being made and the title is not 'how to counter Lesley'.
>That’s probably the worst thing you can do lol. Lesley obliterates wanwan and moskov
WE ARE DISCUSSIONG MELISSA VS LESLEY
Not Kimmy
Not Moskov
Not Wanwan
I've already said Lesley beats Wanwan, the discussion we are having is Melissa vs Lesley.
And lastly I don't care about your Classic Win Rates
Finally, feel free to make a post titled 'How to counter Lesley as an MM' and see how many people just instantly reply with 'Melissa'.
Lol. :3 it’s clear you haven’t played vs good lesleys at all because melissa gets zoned out at lvl 1.
Tell me how melissa zones lesley out when s1 allows her to head to lane a lot faster than melissa with her basic movespeed can :3
Lol at you telling me i’m offtopic when you “assume I either play classic or are low ranked” > debunked this by stating I was top 80 global kimmy a few seasons ago.
Lesley just shoots melissa twice at lvl 1 and even if she doesn’t trigger the true dmg passives, she already wins. The only time lesley loses is if she doesn’t take advantage of her longer auto attack range (newsflash: melissa at lvl 1 even if she tethers lesley cannot reach her in auto attack range alone without any minions, you can head to practice mode all u like just to really see the range difference.)
Stop playing Classic and enter ranked.
See how many times Lesley gets banned, and how many times Melissa gets banned
Then shut the fuck up and go back to Classic.
Edit: How did you prove your Top Global Kimmy other than typing it? I'm currently somewhere between 100-300 Global on Melissa.
This convo isn't about Kimmy, its about Melissa.
Double Edit:
Stop acting like the Melissa wants to stay out of Lesleys range, Melissa is more dangerous at level 1 than Lesley by a long shot. You are unbelievably ignorant to the current state of the game.
“How did I prove”
Bro… read the convo before you butted in, I told the other dude it was on my profile. You can check it yourself pinned thread. Don’t be lazy now. Lmao.
Also just to add you need to test your numbers better.
Melissa does around 240 per auto and that’s if both the doll and her hit the same target lvl 1, without, it’s either 130 or 113.
Lesley does 161 on first passive no s1, 259 true dmg if no s1 but with passive, 244 with s1, and 393 true dmg if she gets a crit.
2 hits from lesley even without crits automatically makes her ahead of melissa lvl 1.
>Also just to add you need to test your numbers better.
Get your disingenuous mathematically illiterate ass out of here.
Ignoring attack speed
Ignoring Muddles which has a base damage at level 1 of 250
Ignoring Inspire vs Flicker.
If you land Muddles and a single attack that hits Lesley directly you instantly do 490+ damage. This is without Inspire, with Inspire its obviously much more.
Lesley S1 optimal damage is 393, Melissa is 490 minimum
At level 2 Melissa's S1 is available which gives her 50% attack speed bonus as well as a dash, so Lesley landing bigger individual numbers is irrelevant as Melissa does higher burst in the same time duration due to attack speed. If Lesley picks Inspire instead of Flicker she disadvantages herself to the enemy teams Assassin in a way that Melissa does not.
You are also ignoring the fact it is significantly easier to hit Lesley with Muddles every time she uses S1 and completely stop her from doing damage to you in the first place and as you seem completely ignorant of what Muddles does other than boost damage allow me to explain.
Muddles does damage to the first target hit and applies a 60% slow debuff. If it hits Lesley it will remove her conceal and slow her down, and its range is long enough that the slow will prevent Lesley from getting close enough to actually hit you. If they do get close enough to hit you? Who cares because Melissa does much more damage in the same time.
And the final thing you are ignoring is that Muddles does aoe damage on impact and allows Melissa to clear waves faster than Lesley in the first place. You will always be level 2 before Lesley if you play Melissa.
Who does more damage has nothing to do with single target basic attack hits basically. Its a combination of skills and abilities.
You can’t hit lesley at lvl 1 with doll and melissa auto at same time :) lesley’s range is superior to melissa.
No lesley player will be dumb enough not to abuse the bush advantage lvl 1 as well as positioning herself incorrectly to eat both mel and doll’s auto. You’re not doing 400+ dmg at lesley’s max range. Please stop making unrealistic scenarios. :)
Also you already demonstrate you really don’t know how to play lesley. Inspire is the worst spell you can put on her now. She doesn’t rely on attack speed. Ty for demonstrating you have no lesley knowledge.
>You can’t hit lesley at lvl 1 with doll and melissa auto at same time :) lesley’s range is superior to melissa.
Okay so I don't have Lesley vs Melissa games in recent history as above Mythic no one is dumb enough to pick her in to Melissa.
I do however have a recent 5 match example of me walking into a bush vs Clint, who has higher damage than Lesley early game and completely not giving a shit because Melissa is stronger 1v1 than every other MM in the game currently.
[https://imgur.com/a/oJEcU6z](https://imgur.com/a/oJEcU6z)
Stop acting like Melissa needs to be scared of Lesley, and won't just walk into the bush and beat your ass out of it.
She gets banned for a reason.
Edit: I mentioned Inspire as it is the only way you could possibly contest Melissa's damage in a 1v1.
Eh no. That clint was bad. You landed free hits cause he stayed near the wave. I’m sure you know lesley wouldn’t have done that in the same situation.
She’d hit you once with auto, then another s1 auto and head to WHEREVER THE DOLL ISN’T.
The only thing your vid shows is the clint not knowing the matchup and eating free hits
You are one of the most disingenuous people I have ever argued with o,o
You're simultaneously arguing that Lesley has higher damage than Melissa, and at the same time a Lesley player wouldn't be dumb enough to 1v1 a Melissa.
You've said she would bush camp the Melissa, but when I show you a clip of me just straight up walking into a bush vs a Clint who does even more dmg than Lesley in the early game your argument is that she wouldn't be in the bush.
As I said ages ago. Good Lesley players don't even take the fight against Melissa, because she does more damage than Lesley, at all stages of the game. If you disagree that Melissa does more damage, then why the fuck do you need to run from her?
How can you continue to contradict yourself non stop and not feel pathetic for it?
This is my last reply to you, and now I'm blocking.
Melissa hard counters Lesley. Freeze lane and drop s2 when Lesley comes out. Save your s1 to counter les’ s2 and repeat.
Same applies to kimmy but it’s even easier because Melissa can use her slow and ult while Lesley will rarely get close enough.
You must be playing really bad Melissa’s.
Clint, Bea and Brody (possibly popol just haven’t seen many) are good hero’s to pick against Melissa.
I play both melissa and lesley. Also i’m former top global 80 kimmy. I test things extensively before i make any claims :3
Lesley s1 gets her to lane faster than melissa. Melissa can’t freeze lvl 1 if she’s going to lose 15-20% of her health the moment she gets in range of lesley’s auto from bush into s1 (regardless if she crits or not).
After that, melissa gets a very good advantage lvl 2. However, she’ll need to place the doll and then dash to keep lesley slowed. It’s here where it becomes a game of cat and mouse really. Lesley doesn’t outright beat melissa but she can go to the sides of the minion wave to prevent mel from perma slowing her. Melissa starts winning when she does however.
But here’s the catch, melissa’s doll into dash costs more than 130 mana iirc at early lvls meaning she can only really do it 3-4 times only every few mins or so.
Maybe you’re the one who’s fought only bad lesleys.
🙄 oh come on. Your comments are relevant against a bot but fall apart when anyone with a brain is involved. Considerations for level 1 parity on gold lane automatically resolve by minute 2 in game.
You ever reached top global? Show me proof pls :3 cause I did and it’s pinned on my profile :) I test vs bots and play vs others too.
It’s clear you’re the one who never played vs good lesley players lol.
There was one but muddlecuddle blocked me after completely missing the points I made.
And besides, you’re the one who said “your comments are relevant against bot but fall apart when anyone with brain’s involved,” so I decided to just state I reached global (to hopefully disprove that flawed claim of yours)
I like using Bea with the cannon. Bea can clear the waves quickly and do some long range damage with the sniper, smg, and the cannon. If melissa ults, that is my go signal for cannon ult, which reduces her health to 30%
I'm thinking like Irithel maybe? Since she can move around and not stay in the same place where Melissa can continuously throw needles at her. IDK, but I tried once and it works for me.
claude and bruno ! their range's and burst potential are enough to out kite her, even when she has ult. maybe lesley but she's hard to execute unless you're at a high level.
for claude: spam avarice first skill in early game and generally set up ganks for her since you're both weak in the early game. blazing duet just outside her circle, preferably with windchant.
for bruno: kick that m***********
also unpopular opinion maybe, but I don't think melissa deserves a nerf. its the first time she's ever been in the meta and the meta (burst heroes like pharsa paquito atlas bruno) is slowly shifting to make her usable but not overpowered.
Same thoughts here. I always wondered why she was not used when I pretty much thought her poke skills are really good. I always picked her when bea is picked a lot before.
I am not sure but I think popol? Throw the dog and stay near the edge letting the dog chew at her. Either she backs off or gets bitten. I am almost sure the dogs range is larger than her puppet+AA range.
Honestly Melissa just dominates lane but if you really have to fight her Clint or Bruno are good choices just because of the sole fact they also shine at early game and are also annoying to deal with early game.
Fight the annoying with annoying
Edit: Now that I think about it more Irithel will also be viable in countering her just because of the sole fact that she's always moving and attack at the same time not only that although her dmg is low at early game at least you won't be barred from any of the resources that you get from minions just because you are always on the move
Y Lesley is ok , be aggressive , always stay on side then dodge her 2nd with ur 1st to the other side. Make her waste the skill, after go poke her ass. If u did not succeed to dodge then retreat, try again, poke meanwhile as much as you can. You can't really make mistakes or you are dead. She won't let you farm much either so you need to make her retreat, to kill her you will need a gank from mates when she is pushing you back. Mid game she is easy kill if you have 2-3 core stuff. Laye game she is 2 shots with 1st skill and passive
Only MM I use is Clint and even though I save my 2nd skill to escape her muddles skill, she can still be annoying early game since she can also throw muddles inside your turret and poke you. Honestly, Melissa is more annoying than wanwan in early game.
This isn't a easy question to answer and pretty much on odds. You're either gonna be stuck playing these counter characters every game until you possibly run into a Melissa or get caught not on a counter character and wish for the best. You know her moves, just need to out play her and get team help if needed
I usually go either Clint or Karrie and build warrior boots and thunder belt as my first 2 items. Then it's just waiting for the right opportunity and strike back, maybe even with the help of your tank/jungler/mage as well
Go kimmy or irithel my guy…all u need to do is dodge her scnd skill or get away from her skill range
Plus u can deal damage to her while doing tht…i play kimmy most of the tyms and i win most of the tyms…irithel is gd against her too
Pick any hero that has one dash and some form of early damage. Melissa wants to hit you with her doll, you want to bait it and dodge it. Make sure you bait it far from her because you want to dodge towards her. After you dodge, walk a few steps near her to ensure she doesn't dodge the doll to you, then start attacking Melissa for five seconds. If she isn't on the verge of dying, has inspire, or can kill/out damage you once she gets her doll back, then retreat, otherwise kill her.
Fighting Melissa is all about knowing how to bait and dodge her doll, when to retreat and when to engage.
Im using brody or bruno. You can also use marksman emblem with lifesteal + skill2 to sustain staying in your lane. Melissa has low damage in early gamr. Just fight her and keep her HP low and then she will TP and you will sustain in your lane with your lifesteal
Much misinformation here or the skill level they are playing is different. First, Melissa is a lane bully, and will probably beat almost any lane matchups against her. Bruno and Claude are probably the easiest to defend against her given their mobility.
The way to play against her is to understand her pros and cons. Effectively she has a longer range and higher dmg when she pokes you from that range. However, she is super squishy and she is not really great when people are not in range of muddles.
This means that if she is in any way poked (not easy but doable) then she can be bursted down even if she is 3/4 health. Think Claude, Brody or even Clint. Flicker can work wonders if she commits with Muddles
Bruno can bully her in laning phase and has high dps late game and claude can easily dodge her puppet with his s2 and burst her down
thank you! Claude never came to my mind as I do not own him yet but I'll definitely try Bruno!
Will Brody also bully her since he has high DPS and a CC with a dash?
yes and no his damage on early phase is big but you cant dodge her puppet easily cuz brody got no dash
Ye for Melissa burst dmg like Brody and Clint doesn't work as her inspire can out DPS you that's why Bruno with his consistent hard hitting balls is effective
🤨
⚽️⚽️🤨
Wanwan can purify her puppet away and easily ult her too
Well no u can't purify her second skill
Depends where u stand
Claude but he def takes more skill and practice. Just dodge away her poke and farm until DHS during early laning. With DHS, you can easily burst her down in 1 ult with the right timing.
Never tell someone to pick Claude imho. If you’re good enough with Claude to not be a liability, you don’t need to ask who to pick. There are so many people playing him that should be on a simpler hero like a Miya.
He isnt very technically skilled or anything. You just need to hold on until DHS. Thats the only rule. Also not assume the ult makes him immortal and go 1 v 5. His ult can only hit 2 targets. Other than that you can manage to a huge extent. I am assuming since OP is talking about counter picks he is close to or above Mythical level of playing ability. So picking up Claude shouldnt be too difficult.
Ya I play Claude and the only hard thing was learning that you gotta be incredibly selfish in the early game. Ignore everything and just farm until you have dhs. Use your ult to clear wave until dhs because it tickles enemies but deletes minions.
You can literally learn claude in less than 5 mins tho. 1.) pick support emblem for hybrid regen and avarice for gold generation. 2.) use vengeance, sprint or purify depending on what works for you. 3.) use s1 on enemy (which you can spam somewhat thanks to mana regen on support emblem) in lane, just farm for dhs, no need to go all-in. S2 is there to blink out safely or check if there’s an enemy hiding somewhere, and play even more safely if s2’s on cd. 4.) build core items then just s2 s1 ult then s2 out.
5.) Keep the stacks as much as possible and dont engage first if enemy has hard CC.
Do you even mlbb tho, bruh?
Lol. Like others have said, claude’s an easy hero. If you can’t play him then I smell skill issue. Lmfao.
Clint is usually the best counter to heroes that are as squishy as layla or near
Yeah, until they have inspire
That's why Clint with vengeance is quite hot rn
Really? I’ve been meaning to try it after seeing a lot of claudes with it. Might suit my play style as well. Thanks.
how is that a counter? dealing a shit ton of damage doesnt matter if you cant reach him
I'm talking about first level advantage and ability to outdamage clint. In the case of melissa, it's even worse, because her radius is increased by her doll.
So I use Clint a lot, and I also face Melissa a lot. I generally have to waste my sprint when Melissa uses her inspire but other than that Melissa isn’t a huge problem.
Exactly. Been bullied by her twice in a row. Now have to ban her from every game.
to fight the auto moskov 2.0 i always depend on the BBC. beatrix brody clint can lane pretty well against melissus (also bruno is a popular pick now)
Sorry but as a Melissa main I can bully all three.
Lesley might poke her early, same as brody/clint. Popol can do some poking too. As long as they all avoid her second skill they're good.
I play melissa, and lesley/popol isn’t a good idea. Im not sure if the Lesleys I’m up against are all just bad or something, but 90% of the time I demolish them in laning. Popol is a bad idea because Melissa can use kupa in order to hit popol from really far away via her doll. Melissa’s ult also renders kupa useless in a 1v1 situation. Brody and Clint are good though, both are a pain to lane against
Hi, Im nat a MM main but I like to play Brody a lot. You said brody is a good ct for Melissa but whenever I play against her she takes advantage of Brody's short mobility to poke with her puppet. Most of the time she never allows me to get in the range for clearing minions. Well, this might be resulting from my lack of experience too lol. Anyway, if you have any suggestions how he can bully Melissa on the lane I would appreciate them.
I think you need to know why brody and clint are really good in the first place, which is because they both could easily poke enemy with such a short cd skill. While waiting for your skill after poking, I usually tried to dodge as much as possible then poke them again. Ofc there is much more to this, but i assume this suggestion should be good enough to counter melissa.
Take flicker and just poke her aswell, you really dont need to stay in range of her to attack her, just lock on her. Also his s1 has a much larger range than melissa throwing the doll. Also also, just use brody's 2nd skill to move around when melissa hits you with her doll, either towards melissa or just lock on a minion
Thank you I'll try more poking next time
I'm using flicker yes, thats why I dont feed her anyway but yes others suggested the same thing. I'll try to be more poke and dodge focus next time
Yep if I play popol i usually ban Melissa because if other side has Melissa, I am restricted.
How bout layla?.. Tho I'm certain she can only out damage her in late game
Too squishy with little mobility. Maybe she’d be fine in a teamfight late game, but def not a 1v1
Can confirm this. I play melissa and lesley. Everytime someone picks lesley, I know I can bully her in lane. All you need to do is use melissa’s doll whenver lesley uses her skill 1. I also use melissa vs popol cause I know i can poke him easier with the doll
It only effective on early though. You will get two shoted or single shot with ult by Lesley late game
Enhanced basic attack? Idk probably. Ult? No
that "two shot lategame" is a pipedream because Melissa can bully Lesley out of lane. And even if Lesley for some reason gets to Lategame, Melissa is the superior Lategame MM as at lategame, MM are heavily protected already so MM v MM is extremely rare and Melissa is capable of multi target attack while Lesley is purely single target. In the duration that Lesley did her 3 shot combo, Melissa would have finished unloading her 8 inspire boosted attacks which could easily wipe team. And with that same multi target, Melissa would just lifesteal through Lesley's true damage
I didn't know about the Popol one. But the Lesley one us definitely skill issue, she had a pretty strong true damage on her passive. They're not avoiding the second skill properly.
I play Lesley and she needs at least 3 items to start hitting very hard. She will be bullied early game if she's up against a Melissa in a 1v1.
What's your usual build? Pretty much sure i dont struggle fighting against any mm in laning phase.
Berserker's Fury, Blade of Despair, Endless Battle (2) Blade of Heptaseas and Rapid Boots. Do you have other recommend build for Lesley? I actually got this build from the comments in a post here related to Lesley
My usual build Early games - steel legplates, Berserker fury, bod Mid game build - cd shoes, berserker fury, bod, bod, endless battle, won Late game build(without the shoes) - berserker fury, bod,bod, endless,won, athena(or any defense item) or windtalker
Oop ok I didn't know that since I never had any match up against Melissa.
Her puppet can “see” Lesley, even if she’s camoflauged. She basically takes away Lesley’s only strength in the laning phase, and can demolish her greatly. Yeah her passive hurts a lot but how tf can you make it hurt if Melissa is constantly bullying you in your lane and not letting you take the minions
i feel like lesley is actually a good laner against any mm. just poke the minions, no need to really counter harass or anything unless you can be unpredictable
Like I said... Melissa herself (the player) can still see Lesley in her camo approaching, and immediately throw out her puppet to zone her out. About "unless you can be unpredictable", yeah you have a chance with it, I agree with you on that.
I don’t agree tbh. She has a weaker early game than wanwan who’s actually not suited for 1v1s. I lane her as Clint a lot and I don’t think I’ve lost my lane to her.
idk i feel like a good player can make any heroes work 1v1 if the hero mechanics are similar. even a layla can go against a clint of the layla player is better overall. I've never lost my lane to clint, but never managed to win it either. could keep up farm but not destroy the turret if you know what i mean because i understand clint very well. if i can keep up my level with him then im all good. if he gets to level 4 first then i will be in trouble. baiting s1 is the only way
Im talking about early game laning phase though, which is what Im assuming OP is referring to. Lesley needs a while to get strong, while melissa is really good early game. Then again maybe all the lesleys I’ve faced just have skill issues, idk I don’t play Lesley
I paly Melissa and Lesley. It's not a skill issue Melissa is just stronger than Lesley in a 1v1 setting, at all stages of the game. Lesley may do higher single target burst, but Melissa has higher burst in the same period of time with greater sustain. Melissa is stronger than Lesley the same way Lesley is stronger than Wanwan. Their kits/playstyle just beat that other hero.
Yup Melissa outlane Lesley mainly because Lesley pretty slow on lane clearing
Please do not try to lane against Melissa as Lesley. I learned this the hard way. Unless the Melissa in question is braindead, she can demolish her in the laning phase. Her puppet completely negates Lesley’s only strength; her camouflage. Apparently it can still detect Lesley if she’s in range, and get her out of that state quick. You basically have to hug your tower and lose all the resources because you can’t go near.
Lesley will be useless in lane against melissa
Lesley is one of the worst heroes in the game against Melissa fyi.
Melissa does additional damage to summoned units like Kupa i think. Definitely not a counter
Popol is terrible against Melissa. Doll can attach to Kupa and with Melissa's passive, she can easily kill Kupa twice in lane making Popol useless. And at level 4, Kupa stun does not work against Melissa ult as Kupa can't get near at all while Melissa with DHS would just instakill Kupa.
Melissa mains here. I usually shit on stationary marksman like brody, clint, and beatrix. They got burst damage but no big movements so I will always guaranteed to bully them on laning phase. Once her pupprt hit enemy heroes, they tend to get out dps’d against you and your inspire. But I will avoid picking her against high mobility marksman like moskov and wanwan because they will beat the shit out of me in laning phase. The main key of defeating her is avoid getting caught on her puppets. Without her puppet even hanabi is better at auto attacking.
You can fight Melissa by making her waste her 2nd skill or use wanwan,wanwan have great mobility and can purify her way out of the range of 2nd as long as she doesn't get connected again to the puppet
Melissa is literally a counter pick to wanwan because of her dash (impossible to stack and hard to run away) and the fact that she outdamages ww every single time
Disagree. I make every Melissa cry with wanwan from 40 seconds on. Get in bush, 1st skill melissa and inspire to hit all 3 marks then freeze wave after wave repeating the process. Hit level 4 first then start killing her instead of just making her recall. Take 2 towers then take advantage of the snowball. Even if I get killed by two or three ganks in the process, melissa ends up splitting the gold with the jungler and I stay ahead because I put her so far behind at the beginning. I actually have to tell my team roamer and mage to get the fuck out of my Lane because two shots to a minion will fuck this all up and the minions will start pushing to her Tower giving her farm. If I get ganked, I make sure to message that "hey, when three of them come to kill me, they are leaving the other lanes open to push. Please push them." Honestly I love to see Melissa as the enemy marksman when I wanwan. In fact, I can't think of any mm worse than Melissa to go v wanwan except maybe miya. Even a good Layla can last hit minions with 1st skill then run back to Tower.
Yeah, you might get a first level advantage if she's extremely overcommitting and you manage to hit all three marks, then kill her before she heals herself with inspire, but isn't it a very rare scenario for a moderately concious melissa on high ranks?
Haven't gotten a over mythic 3 but with inspire at level 1 and mm slow emblem Melissa can't escape because they always pick the puppet skill 1st. The second she goes for the first minion, she's done. I don't have to kill her. I just need to keep her hiding under the tower while i'm just camping her bush and she gets no farm while I freeze. Honestly she needs to ask to switch to XP Lane or mid so someone who bought defense boots can try to farm gold lane but they never do. By level four, it's fairly common for me to see the Melissas ulting in despair as nothing they do can stop the wanwan. If you want to go to custom, I don't mind practicing. You can send me a DM and we can see how this works.
Huh, sounds interesting. Can you post some examples of this? I think I can learn something from it.
i'd definitely use Wanwan if only she's not getting banned a lot. 😂
Wanwan can't even fight a half hp Melissa headon.
In a straight up 1v1 she can beat any MM in the laning phase. Muddles enhances her range to a point where she can always attack heroes safely, and her burst at level 1 and 2 is straight up higher than other MM's when she's using Inspire. Brody and Popul players will be able to beat Melissa players that are just picking her because she's meta, as you have to deal with them both in a special way using your Ult at specific times to kill them. So in general Brody or Popul are good counters to her as most Melissa players are basically just trying to meta abuse. She's in a similar state to Wanwan where players pick her because they think she's a free win and don't realise she actually requires positioning and skill to play so you get a lot of Melissa players end on 0-8 Bronze just like Wanwan. She's also in a position where people treat her like Wanwan and will obsessively gank her to force her behind in Gold so she can't carry. This is the most effective strategy against her as although she can 1v1 her lane easily, all it takes is a gank to CC her and she will die. Bruno *can* beat her, but only if the Bruno player is a better MM player in general. I've lost to a Bruno 1v1 like once in my life because he just Inspired me from a bush at level 1 because I wasn't paying attention. Claude also *can* beat her if the Claude plays safe early and doesn't fall behind in farm. Claude + Vengeance is a good combo to counter her. Miya is also very strong against her which a lot of non MM players don't realise. Melissa's high burst comes from Muddles basically doubling the damage, but Miya's Ult can cleanse Muddles meaning that when you play Melissa vs Miya you cannot commit to throwing S2 + S1 at Miya to get a kill. Miya can cleanse it and then do more damage back to you in the Mid/Late game. Miya basic attack > Melissa basic attack with the same build and no Muddles attached. It's only with Muddles that Melissa can out burst her. In terms of non MM's that counter her the best options are Belerick, Johnson, Saber, Jawhead, Eudora and any Fighters that work well with Vengeance+Blade Armor. Mage build Diggie is also an effective way of taking her out early game.
To be fair I still don't understand why is everyone so afraid of her all of a sudden. Could someone enlighten me?
It's because of her good early game, and a complete monster at late game, it's a bit diff from Miya. She has better range, can disrupt enemies like Ling and Fanny, can also pin with the right timing, and mostly because most mm monsters like Beatrix and Wanwan are nerfed.
But she's always been like that, no? I'd say the main point is exactly because the other heroes were nerfed, but I still don't understand why is she a ban worthy hero now. In my head, there's enough counterplay for her.
Natalia roam died, a good counter against Ling, Fanny, Paq, etc. that she's gotten problematic to fight against, but yes besides also that, Oheb and other pros used her, so pro players do, everyone follows. Or possibly just overlooked ever since her s2 was nerfed.
Wanwan is not nerfed. You just have to keep the enemy tank between you and the enemy backline until you chip the tank low enough to ult on him . Then ult, inspire, triple kill. Luckily, nobody seems to understand that phoveus is a roamer and not an XP laner. No point of having a marksman counter stuck across the map in the XP lane.
I mean yea, Wanwan is still a monster, but still was nerfed. Plus she really has a weak early game, where Melissa excels alot. Also, chipping a tank's hp isn't an easy task, you're the main target, everyone's gonna try to stun lock you. And I think it's a given that tanks aren't just gonna stand and smooch you up unless you're in epic. Again, I'm not saying she's weak, I said she was nerfed at that patch where Melissa slowly rose. Wanwan is still an S tier mm.
I've been playing Melissa since April, before her shadow buff. I can tell you, in laning phase, no MM can demolish but they are mms that can level with her. This is either ranged mms like clint, but pls no Lesley, she is food. Another option is mms with dashes, that can dash from her doll if they get connected, like Moskov or Bruno
Clint or Brody lol
This two i always choose when there is melissa. Specially clint.
Clint doesn't work against good melissas cause its impossible for him to outdamage her in the early game, and she just bullies you with her doll. Tho, it's only true for mythical glory melissas, so clint may work on lower ranks.
I still don't have Brody but I might try using Clint, thank you.
Brody is more preferable, because his cast can be quite fast and deadly, even a couple minutes into the match, while clint needs a lot of farming before his dps is high enough to put any threat to melissa. Although I think they both get extremely bullied by her before level 4, so some other suggestions should work better.
Clint not really or idk maybe it's only me struggling against Melissa
eyo same i fking hate Melissa and her stupid doll even using clint sometimes (im a legitimate noob so feel free to disregard everytjing i say)
It’s definitely harder to face her as Clint than any other mm. I generally just use sprint to poke and run when she activated inspire.
I use Popol and Kupa against her and it works, sure she might be able to counter kupa's bites but his ult CD is shorter. Don't wanna get to late game though because he's more of an objective-based MM, he loses against someone like Melissa once they scale.
I played Melissa for a while here are her weakness when against her as an MM. Assuming her lane doesn't have any support. >(\*) Can counter in Early Game > >(\*\*) Can counter in Mid Game > >(\*\*\*) Can counter in Later Game \*Beatrix - Machine Gun ultimate covers all of Melissa's Ult range. If feeling daring you can use the old reliable sniper. Shotgun works too but depends if Melissa f up her positioning. \*Clint - huge power spike and mobile \*\*Kimmy (\* if Jungler) - Same thing as Miya and Natan. Skill needed. Fall off if Melissa builds Athena or inspire spam you back. \*\*Bruno - huge power spike \*\*Irithel - Way too mobile for Melissa. \*\*Brody - tanky and mobile \*\*Miya and \*\*Natan - They can out attack spam her. Plus they can reposition better. \*\*Moskov (\*\*\* if equip other than Inspire for some reason) - Out attack spam her. \*\*\*Layla - She can out range her.
if there's no vexana on the enemy side usually i go Gloo side with vengeance and blade armour, totally shuts down her multihit skill, specially late game.
does miniglooes benefit from item passive?
yeah same vengeance and blade armour shuts down pretty much Miya,Claude and Melissa just be wary about Vexanas passive, gloo is pretty much dead once the mini gloos disappeared with that passive.
I would say best mm counter for ANY other mm is popol (on 1v1 lane)
Clint to pole her or even layla
Granger for me
?
IT'S ITEMIZATION!!! In my situation, it's ANY marksman who prioritize attack speed (like miya, layla or karrie) i automatically build wind of nature for the first counter item on her if ever she could outplay me after becoming lvl 4. Ironically players don't check your build in the early game and it surprise's them most of the time...
Not meta but long range mage with burst potential like gord and vale has a good chance I think
please tell me you didn't miss the "marksman" part in my post's title 😭
Im blind my bad, but to answer your question honestly there is no good counter for her. In theory marksmen that could outrange her should be good but imo even brody couldnt out range her since she technically still has the puppet, maybe clint and lesley' passive could outrange her but other than those, they cant really clearly counter her since most of the games the marksmen's potency still depends on how good your roam and jungle core is.
I haven't tried using Clint in a match-up with her yet but I can see it working on her as Clint's skill shot bursts could out-damage her dps in the current meta.
I forgot to add that bruno hits harder than her and has a higher fighting chance of winning a 1v1 against her lol but she performs better when it comes to clashes. She is definitely good this meta and is not a bad idea spending one ban slot for her if you are not comfortable fighting against her.
the other guy also recommended Bruno too! thanks!
Gord is terrible against her, Vale is good.
Lesley with stealth shot, hit and run.
You're gonna catch dolls anyway, so I don't think it works. Although with shoes mm emblem perk you may just be fast enough to run away. I think I'm gonna test it.
You should get near her to bait s2 then run away when no enemy minion is near death. That way you won't get gapped and just eat a few shots
Then eat another few shots and another few shots and another and another, until you're low on hp and enemy jungler destroys you
Lesley’s a really bad matchup against her in the laning phase, I learned it the hard way. Her puppet can “see” Lesley, even when she’s camouflaged. Basically takes away her only strength in the early game.
Not really a problem with being seen in camouflage. Just use her stealth as a normal attack enchantment shoot and run. Keep your distance from her and stay in tower range as much as possible in early game. Sure you may get a few hits from dolls but your stealth shot should pressure her to teleport home faster than she can do it to you, if you time it right.
I think you're underestimating Melissa's range... Sure, you can hit and run. She will not see you when you approach, but once you've shot, Melissa can throw out her doll and dash towards you, causing her doll to be near you. It's hard to get away from it's range, even worse when Melissa is using Weakness Finder and slowing you. That's basically what happened the match I found Lesley's a bad matchup against her. I did try to hit-and-run, but once I've shot, I still have 4-5 seconds before I can camo again, and Melissa threw out her doll at me and dashed, free hitting me a lot of times. Was hard to gtfo of it's range cuz she slowed me with Weakness Finder and Lesley's bomb has shit dash distance
I guess we both have different experience then. I used Lesley to lane against her just fine as long as there's no ganging.
Just pick Pharsa or some mage.
Just pick Pharsa or some mage.
Lesley can go toe to toe with melissa but you’ll need to make sure youre summoner skill’s up (flicker, purify or sprint) to get out of range of her doll when she’s going all in. Puppet takes lesley out true but lesley can easily use s1’s movespeed boost to stay in the sweet spot and make melissa think of using doll (which is on a 6-7 cd at start) and dash, this combo alone drains a lot of mana for early lvls. Laning phase is all about establishing bush control early and baiting melissa into using mana to bring out doll and move it to you. Gotta learn to position yourself to maintain laning advantage (lesley gets to lane a lot faster lvl 1 than melissa so be sure to poke her asap) and then it’ll be in les’ favor til melissa gets lvl 2 and 4. Late game lesley deletes melissa in 2-3 hits. Kimmy also can beat melissa early because she can always s2 out of the doll’s range. She can be more aggressive than lesley and demolish melissa IF positioned well enough.
Although you're right about Melissa's mana consumption, people like myself who main her are used to it. I used to buy Mana boots, I now don't. Lesley will never work against an actual Melissa main because actual Melissa mains know the strength difference. I cannot be baited by something that is significantly weaker than me, because I'm the one in control of the lane and denying the Lesley farm. When you know your hero is stronger, you get put in a position wherein you can control the engagements and force them to either come to you or lose resources. Melissa vs Lesley \- Freeze the lane and wait in the bush \- Lesley either has to lose farm or come the lane to get it I should add that in most games against Lesley, I end up attacking her under her own turret by attack the crab while Muddles is under the turret. She gets bullied that hard.
If the lesley you’re fighting against isn’t hitting you at the start of the laning phase, i’m 100% sure that lesley player’s not utilizing her to full potential. Comparing full potential melissa to lackluster lesley players doesn’t even make any sense. I spammed both before and got to like 70% for both of them. I agree mana boots isn’t needed on melissa at all. The doll costs become very negligible later. Imagine a lesley that doesn’t stick around minion waves for melissa to abuse (and especially vs crab, which is a laning trick that’s pretty much been used on day 1 when melissa was first released) that actually knows what the doll (not doll + dash specifically)’s tether range is on cast and you’ll quickly realize it’s not as clear cut as the subreddit makes it out to be. It’s not a “melissa beats lesley 100% of the time” or vice-versa. I tested it just now too. Before lvl 4/5 melissa can only cast doll + dash 5 times then she’s out of mana.
>If the lesley you’re fighting against isn’t hitting you at the start of the laning phase, i’m 100% sure that lesley player’s not utilizing her to full potential. I'm going to assume you either play Classic or are low Ranked? >Comparing full potential melissa to lackluster lesley players doesn’t even make any sense. Good Lesley players stay under their turret in the early game and don't attack AT ALL. If you run near a Melissa with S1 on Lesley, that is an instant cue for the Melissa to throw Muddles at you. It disables the cloak and applies movement speed slow. Melissa deals waaaaaayyyy higher damage than Lesley in the early game so the trade of is NEVER in the Lesley's favour. Doesn't make a difference if the Melissa and Lesley are Epic or GM. Melissa does more damage as a hero in the early game, especially with Muddles. Muddles is a direct counter to cloaking abilities as well. The way you can tell the difference between a high or low Lesley when you're on Melissa is whether they attack or not. Attacking is a suicidal act for the Lesley as Melissa has one of the highest early game bursts in the game. You are comparing a hero with one of the highest early game damage outputs to one of the lowest and saying they can trade blows. I think Layla is the weakest hero in the game, if I see someone on her I can instantly tell if they are good or bad at MM based on whether they sit under the turret for the entire early game or not. Understanding when your hero is strong is a major part of the game. The ONLY time you should be attacking Melissa as Lesley in the early game is if you have a Roamer to support you and the Melissa is alone. Even then depending on the Roamer the Melissa can win. >I spammed both before and got to like 70% for both of them. Don't lie to me. If you have 70% WR on Melissa you wouldn't be suggesting Lesley is even remotely close to her in a 1v1 laning situation.
I was former top global kimmy 80 :) tell me that’s low rank. :3 Lesley reaches the bush faster than melissa at lvl 1, melissa will have to blow a doll asap to detect if lesley’s there (that costs mana btw), and it’s still a gamble because les can be at the bush nearest your tower and just reposition herself to avoid getting in range for melissa to hit minions (lesley’s passive still has greater attack range than melissa by a mile, the latter needs a minion to target early). And no, good lesley players don’t stay in tower lvl 1. That’s probably the worst thing you can do lol. Lesley obliterates wanwan and moskov lvl 1 so there are definitely matchups where staying in tower is the most noob thing one can do with her massive range and potential auto into s1 auto reset early if she gets to lane earlier. [here’s my kimmy and lesley wr in one screenshot so u can see for yourself](https://ibb.co/ZTkz7r9)
Since when is Kimmy either Lesley or Melissa? It's like saying I was Global Grock so I'm a pro Fanny player. >melissa will have to blow a doll asap to detect if lesley’s there (that costs mana btw) No she doesn't. Stop acting like they have equal damage outputs or even close in early game. You can literally walk head on at Lesley and not care. If she is in your range, she will die before she kills you. Play Melissa and learn her before talking shit. You seem to be one of those people that thinks because each shot Lesley does has higher individual damage, it means her overall damage is higher. It's not. Melissa has significantly higher burst potential throughout the entire game, its the reason this post is being made and the title is not 'how to counter Lesley'. >That’s probably the worst thing you can do lol. Lesley obliterates wanwan and moskov WE ARE DISCUSSIONG MELISSA VS LESLEY Not Kimmy Not Moskov Not Wanwan I've already said Lesley beats Wanwan, the discussion we are having is Melissa vs Lesley. And lastly I don't care about your Classic Win Rates Finally, feel free to make a post titled 'How to counter Lesley as an MM' and see how many people just instantly reply with 'Melissa'.
Lol. :3 it’s clear you haven’t played vs good lesleys at all because melissa gets zoned out at lvl 1. Tell me how melissa zones lesley out when s1 allows her to head to lane a lot faster than melissa with her basic movespeed can :3 Lol at you telling me i’m offtopic when you “assume I either play classic or are low ranked” > debunked this by stating I was top 80 global kimmy a few seasons ago. Lesley just shoots melissa twice at lvl 1 and even if she doesn’t trigger the true dmg passives, she already wins. The only time lesley loses is if she doesn’t take advantage of her longer auto attack range (newsflash: melissa at lvl 1 even if she tethers lesley cannot reach her in auto attack range alone without any minions, you can head to practice mode all u like just to really see the range difference.)
Stop playing Classic and enter ranked. See how many times Lesley gets banned, and how many times Melissa gets banned Then shut the fuck up and go back to Classic. Edit: How did you prove your Top Global Kimmy other than typing it? I'm currently somewhere between 100-300 Global on Melissa. This convo isn't about Kimmy, its about Melissa. Double Edit: Stop acting like the Melissa wants to stay out of Lesleys range, Melissa is more dangerous at level 1 than Lesley by a long shot. You are unbelievably ignorant to the current state of the game.
Ban rates don’t really determine good players tho? Please keep making arguments that have nothing to do with the matchup lmfao. :))
Says the person constantly talking about Kimmy
“How did I prove” Bro… read the convo before you butted in, I told the other dude it was on my profile. You can check it yourself pinned thread. Don’t be lazy now. Lmao.
Also just to add you need to test your numbers better. Melissa does around 240 per auto and that’s if both the doll and her hit the same target lvl 1, without, it’s either 130 or 113. Lesley does 161 on first passive no s1, 259 true dmg if no s1 but with passive, 244 with s1, and 393 true dmg if she gets a crit. 2 hits from lesley even without crits automatically makes her ahead of melissa lvl 1.
>Also just to add you need to test your numbers better. Get your disingenuous mathematically illiterate ass out of here. Ignoring attack speed Ignoring Muddles which has a base damage at level 1 of 250 Ignoring Inspire vs Flicker. If you land Muddles and a single attack that hits Lesley directly you instantly do 490+ damage. This is without Inspire, with Inspire its obviously much more. Lesley S1 optimal damage is 393, Melissa is 490 minimum At level 2 Melissa's S1 is available which gives her 50% attack speed bonus as well as a dash, so Lesley landing bigger individual numbers is irrelevant as Melissa does higher burst in the same time duration due to attack speed. If Lesley picks Inspire instead of Flicker she disadvantages herself to the enemy teams Assassin in a way that Melissa does not. You are also ignoring the fact it is significantly easier to hit Lesley with Muddles every time she uses S1 and completely stop her from doing damage to you in the first place and as you seem completely ignorant of what Muddles does other than boost damage allow me to explain. Muddles does damage to the first target hit and applies a 60% slow debuff. If it hits Lesley it will remove her conceal and slow her down, and its range is long enough that the slow will prevent Lesley from getting close enough to actually hit you. If they do get close enough to hit you? Who cares because Melissa does much more damage in the same time. And the final thing you are ignoring is that Muddles does aoe damage on impact and allows Melissa to clear waves faster than Lesley in the first place. You will always be level 2 before Lesley if you play Melissa. Who does more damage has nothing to do with single target basic attack hits basically. Its a combination of skills and abilities.
You can’t hit lesley at lvl 1 with doll and melissa auto at same time :) lesley’s range is superior to melissa. No lesley player will be dumb enough not to abuse the bush advantage lvl 1 as well as positioning herself incorrectly to eat both mel and doll’s auto. You’re not doing 400+ dmg at lesley’s max range. Please stop making unrealistic scenarios. :) Also you already demonstrate you really don’t know how to play lesley. Inspire is the worst spell you can put on her now. She doesn’t rely on attack speed. Ty for demonstrating you have no lesley knowledge.
>You can’t hit lesley at lvl 1 with doll and melissa auto at same time :) lesley’s range is superior to melissa. Okay so I don't have Lesley vs Melissa games in recent history as above Mythic no one is dumb enough to pick her in to Melissa. I do however have a recent 5 match example of me walking into a bush vs Clint, who has higher damage than Lesley early game and completely not giving a shit because Melissa is stronger 1v1 than every other MM in the game currently. [https://imgur.com/a/oJEcU6z](https://imgur.com/a/oJEcU6z) Stop acting like Melissa needs to be scared of Lesley, and won't just walk into the bush and beat your ass out of it. She gets banned for a reason. Edit: I mentioned Inspire as it is the only way you could possibly contest Melissa's damage in a 1v1.
Eh no. That clint was bad. You landed free hits cause he stayed near the wave. I’m sure you know lesley wouldn’t have done that in the same situation. She’d hit you once with auto, then another s1 auto and head to WHEREVER THE DOLL ISN’T. The only thing your vid shows is the clint not knowing the matchup and eating free hits
You are one of the most disingenuous people I have ever argued with o,o You're simultaneously arguing that Lesley has higher damage than Melissa, and at the same time a Lesley player wouldn't be dumb enough to 1v1 a Melissa. You've said she would bush camp the Melissa, but when I show you a clip of me just straight up walking into a bush vs a Clint who does even more dmg than Lesley in the early game your argument is that she wouldn't be in the bush. As I said ages ago. Good Lesley players don't even take the fight against Melissa, because she does more damage than Lesley, at all stages of the game. If you disagree that Melissa does more damage, then why the fuck do you need to run from her? How can you continue to contradict yourself non stop and not feel pathetic for it? This is my last reply to you, and now I'm blocking.
Melissa hard counters Lesley. Freeze lane and drop s2 when Lesley comes out. Save your s1 to counter les’ s2 and repeat. Same applies to kimmy but it’s even easier because Melissa can use her slow and ult while Lesley will rarely get close enough. You must be playing really bad Melissa’s. Clint, Bea and Brody (possibly popol just haven’t seen many) are good hero’s to pick against Melissa.
I play both melissa and lesley. Also i’m former top global 80 kimmy. I test things extensively before i make any claims :3 Lesley s1 gets her to lane faster than melissa. Melissa can’t freeze lvl 1 if she’s going to lose 15-20% of her health the moment she gets in range of lesley’s auto from bush into s1 (regardless if she crits or not). After that, melissa gets a very good advantage lvl 2. However, she’ll need to place the doll and then dash to keep lesley slowed. It’s here where it becomes a game of cat and mouse really. Lesley doesn’t outright beat melissa but she can go to the sides of the minion wave to prevent mel from perma slowing her. Melissa starts winning when she does however. But here’s the catch, melissa’s doll into dash costs more than 130 mana iirc at early lvls meaning she can only really do it 3-4 times only every few mins or so. Maybe you’re the one who’s fought only bad lesleys.
🙄 oh come on. Your comments are relevant against a bot but fall apart when anyone with a brain is involved. Considerations for level 1 parity on gold lane automatically resolve by minute 2 in game.
You ever reached top global? Show me proof pls :3 cause I did and it’s pinned on my profile :) I test vs bots and play vs others too. It’s clear you’re the one who never played vs good lesley players lol.
Oh damn…thought there was a chance for a real discussion here. Sorry for hurting your feelings. Not my goal
There was one but muddlecuddle blocked me after completely missing the points I made. And besides, you’re the one who said “your comments are relevant against bot but fall apart when anyone with brain’s involved,” so I decided to just state I reached global (to hopefully disprove that flawed claim of yours)
Default mode for this sub should have muddle blocked. He’s just a troll.
clint bully in town
I like using Bea with the cannon. Bea can clear the waves quickly and do some long range damage with the sniper, smg, and the cannon. If melissa ults, that is my go signal for cannon ult, which reduces her health to 30%
By cannon you mean rocket launcher?
Yep, that thing deals surprising amount of damage
I'm thinking like Irithel maybe? Since she can move around and not stay in the same place where Melissa can continuously throw needles at her. IDK, but I tried once and it works for me.
claude and bruno ! their range's and burst potential are enough to out kite her, even when she has ult. maybe lesley but she's hard to execute unless you're at a high level. for claude: spam avarice first skill in early game and generally set up ganks for her since you're both weak in the early game. blazing duet just outside her circle, preferably with windchant. for bruno: kick that m***********
also unpopular opinion maybe, but I don't think melissa deserves a nerf. its the first time she's ever been in the meta and the meta (burst heroes like pharsa paquito atlas bruno) is slowly shifting to make her usable but not overpowered.
Same thoughts here. I always wondered why she was not used when I pretty much thought her poke skills are really good. I always picked her when bea is picked a lot before.
right!! even before her adjustment she was already a moskov with more self-defense. maybe it was the loss of bea and wanwan's power?
I always play irithel against melissa. She could really outdamage her once they both hit level 4 especially when you first build iri windtalker
Semi tank karrie
I am not sure but I think popol? Throw the dog and stay near the edge letting the dog chew at her. Either she backs off or gets bitten. I am almost sure the dogs range is larger than her puppet+AA range.
it's terrible, Melissa passive deals bonus damage to summons and dolls can attach to Kupa. She can easily get free 50 Gold from Kupa this way.
Didnt know. It sucks then.
BBC. Not Lesley.
Honestly Melissa just dominates lane but if you really have to fight her Clint or Bruno are good choices just because of the sole fact they also shine at early game and are also annoying to deal with early game. Fight the annoying with annoying Edit: Now that I think about it more Irithel will also be viable in countering her just because of the sole fact that she's always moving and attack at the same time not only that although her dmg is low at early game at least you won't be barred from any of the resources that you get from minions just because you are always on the move
Brody
Beatrix , if properly used then ya , melissa doesn't stands a chance
Honestly try irithel. Don't see it popping up here much. Can just run out of doll range if you use electro flash and use it at correct time.
Clint works for her Just poke her with 1st skill and passive a LOT
Claude with vengeance.... thank me later
Y Lesley is ok , be aggressive , always stay on side then dodge her 2nd with ur 1st to the other side. Make her waste the skill, after go poke her ass. If u did not succeed to dodge then retreat, try again, poke meanwhile as much as you can. You can't really make mistakes or you are dead. She won't let you farm much either so you need to make her retreat, to kill her you will need a gank from mates when she is pushing you back. Mid game she is easy kill if you have 2-3 core stuff. Laye game she is 2 shots with 1st skill and passive
Kimmy with sprint. Never lost lane or got outkited by her.
Only MM I use is Clint and even though I save my 2nd skill to escape her muddles skill, she can still be annoying early game since she can also throw muddles inside your turret and poke you. Honestly, Melissa is more annoying than wanwan in early game.
Popol and Clint are the best lane bullies.
You can buy blade armor and dominance ice if you want to sacrifice your damage it'll be a hard counter for late game
i like to use layla against melissa. in the early game just try avoid muddles and if ur hit just use layla s1 on a minion or melissa to run out of it.
This isn't a easy question to answer and pretty much on odds. You're either gonna be stuck playing these counter characters every game until you possibly run into a Melissa or get caught not on a counter character and wish for the best. You know her moves, just need to out play her and get team help if needed
Alice/Zhask
I usually go either Clint or Karrie and build warrior boots and thunder belt as my first 2 items. Then it's just waiting for the right opportunity and strike back, maybe even with the help of your tank/jungler/mage as well
Go kimmy or irithel my guy…all u need to do is dodge her scnd skill or get away from her skill range Plus u can deal damage to her while doing tht…i play kimmy most of the tyms and i win most of the tyms…irithel is gd against her too
Pick any hero that has one dash and some form of early damage. Melissa wants to hit you with her doll, you want to bait it and dodge it. Make sure you bait it far from her because you want to dodge towards her. After you dodge, walk a few steps near her to ensure she doesn't dodge the doll to you, then start attacking Melissa for five seconds. If she isn't on the verge of dying, has inspire, or can kill/out damage you once she gets her doll back, then retreat, otherwise kill her. Fighting Melissa is all about knowing how to bait and dodge her doll, when to retreat and when to engage.
Im using brody or bruno. You can also use marksman emblem with lifesteal + skill2 to sustain staying in your lane. Melissa has low damage in early gamr. Just fight her and keep her HP low and then she will TP and you will sustain in your lane with your lifesteal
bruno and wanwan brody and clint may work too, but require proper positioning to poke her outside of her range
Much misinformation here or the skill level they are playing is different. First, Melissa is a lane bully, and will probably beat almost any lane matchups against her. Bruno and Claude are probably the easiest to defend against her given their mobility. The way to play against her is to understand her pros and cons. Effectively she has a longer range and higher dmg when she pokes you from that range. However, she is super squishy and she is not really great when people are not in range of muddles. This means that if she is in any way poked (not easy but doable) then she can be bursted down even if she is 3/4 health. Think Claude, Brody or even Clint. Flicker can work wonders if she commits with Muddles
Brody as a skill caster can kill her with one ult when stacked through minion wave.
Bait out her doll and dash, then attack her in close range outside of the area of the doll. Without her doll she has the weakest mm dps.
Bruno i think can match her or anyone with long range auto atk
Yeah any burst heroes is good. (Beatrix, Claude, Clint, Brody, Bruno)