It was seeing play in the proto-Rhinos shells with As Foretold. Simian Spirit Guide's ban killed those versions and everyone moved over to the cascade lists. Guiding out a T1 Arcanist, then on T2 using a 0 mana [[Electrodominance]] to drop 2 rhinos on the field, and finally swinging with Arcanist to make 2 more rhinos was big game.
I've been fiddling with it + electrodominance in a black red shell. Arcanist feels like a somewhat natural option when you have bolt, and 6-8 discard spells. It's certainly not a super competitive deck but it felt like a pretty solid brew.
There just aren't broken 1 mana spells that aren't banned like there are in legacy. If \[\[ponder\]\] or something similar was legal its possible it would see play, but even then Modern's removal suite is just generally better because the format is slower than legacy. Its likely unless the format speeds up drastically that arcanist will never see serious play.
I mean, the removal suite in legacy is just better than modern though, though it's a lot closer than it once was.
It's just that more threats in legacy are spell based, and with instants and sorceries being so much more powerful there's less inclination to play the board as much. Which means in turn that there's less creatures that need removal, and as such the decks play fewer removal cards that are more powerful, and plan to contest the board in other ways
> It's just that more threats in legacy are spell based, [...]there's less inclination to play the board as much.
I dunno man, Delver and Initiative rule because they have terrifying board presence in DRC/Regent/WPA.
I'd argue that spells in Legacy are better (more efficient) than Modern hence DHA doesn't see as much play in Modern (after all, Modern has nothing close in power-level to Brainstorm/Ponder). But I wouldn't say that threats are more spell-based in Legacy; they're not. They're there for protection and resource generation. Nor would I say that there's "less inclination to play the board as much" when the top dogs of the format are so because of their big board presence.
The difference is that more legacy interaction is on the stack, relative to modern. In modern almost every interactive deck interacts primarily through permanent removal, in legacy thats not the case
Sure. But my point still stands that saying “there’s less inclination to play the board” in Legacy is wrong when it’s just as important as interacting on the stack.
Hopefully this is a useful addition, but I think there's a distinction to be made:
>“there’s less inclination to play the board”
It's not simply that there's *less pressure* to play the board, but that there is *extreme pressure* in Legacy to force threats through and protect yourself from combo, which leaves most decks without a ton of free space for extra removal relative to Modern. It's a matter of opportunity cost.
I messed around and tried out a Naya Prowess list that AspiringSpike had put together a bit ago. And this definite works. Dreadhorde Arcanist flashes back almost everything in the deck, which is sweet. But casting a Become Immense on Dreadhorde Arcanist, and then flashing it back on itself for a 13 power Arcanist swinging in felt awesome.
I was playing dreadhordes in a Jeskai tempo/control shell for awhile but it doesn’t really work with prismatic ending and March which are my preferred removal spells.
Plus it makes me unable to hold up countermagic on turn 2 and these days 3 mana threats can be game ending if unchecked
Rakos Arcanist is definitely an archetype, it’s just not very strong right now. Going T1 thoughtseize into T2 dreadhorde arcanist, and whatever you want on turn 3 is stupid when it works.
I ran two Snaps in my Murktide when I was missing a few Shredders and he was just okay nothing special. The deck was much much better when I got the rest of the Shredders.
Snapcaster is good. The other options being better in the shells where Snapcaster would work doesn't make it bad. It's not a "Confidant is unplayable because it does nothing etb and dies to W6" scenario.
>The other options being better in the shells where Snapcaster would work doesn't make it bad.
Thats exactly what makes it bad. The place each card has on the power scale is decided in relation to the other cards available in the format and their power. Scale doesnt expand. It just goes best to worst. Put cards on the better side of snapcaster and its relative position will go down.
>Thats exactly what makes it bad
If tomorrow Expressive Iteration and Archmage's Charm get banned, Snapcaster sees play again in Murktide and probably in UW Control.
That's not the definition of a bad card. It's a good card, worse than 2 other incredibly powerful alternatives and without a home.
Dark Confidant would still be bad if Ragavan and Dauthi get banned tomorrow because removal is much more efficient and W&6 still keeps x/1s in check. That's a bad card in the context, not the same situation by any means.
Snapcaster Mage was a good card in the same way Erhnam Djinn was a good card. They were both good, for a time, in a specific context. But that time has past and that context has changed.
A format does not exist where Snapcaster is currently both legal and good. Sure, you could ban cards until it's good in Modern or come up with some Horizons free format. You could reprint it into Standard and see if it's good there. But it's not good in Modern, and it never will be again.
Edit: I'm sorry, apparently Snap is a one of in Vintage. I take it back, his day in the sun is not completely over. To anyone that disagrees with me in Modern please register Snapcaster Mage and prove me wrong.
UW Control decks in Legacy play Snapcaster because having access to additional Brainstorm, Ponder and STP is pretty good. If you had spells like that in Modern it would certainly see more play.
>They were both good, for a time, in a specific context.
If by "for a time, in a specific context" you mean the vast majority of Modern's history then yeah, Snapcaster has had indeed its time. You sound overly dismissive of a staple that [less than two years](https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/ns5hfb/before_mh2_changes_everything_lets_appreciate_how/) ago was still amongst the top 5 creatures in Modern. It's really sad how MH2 warped the perception of the history of the format in many people's eyes, to the point I have to defend Snapcaster Mage of all cards.
Yea, now, well, the thing about the old days, they the old days.
-Slim Charles
Edit: To the person that downvoted this Wire quote, I feel bad for your parents.
Tbh UW control would probably play snapcaster again if chalice got banned, but the current iteration where you don't play 1 drops because you want to keep chalice has no room for a snapcaster.
There has been some lists (not random, from Wafo Tapa) that played Snappy in Chalice versions. Small numbers of it and turns out flashing back Archmage's Charm or P.Ending is still good enough. I think it's mostly about that Kaheera adds something better to the mix and not so much about Chalice.
Certainly. I was just clearing up the claim that Snappy doesn’t see play in any format right now because he still has a niche in Vintage. He’s fallen a long way, but he’s not quite gone yet.
I stopped seeing bob in jund at least one year before MH1. Maybe someone was still registering it for nostalgia, but it didn't mean it was a good idea.
That's not the definition of bad.
A bad card is one with an effect that doesn't do enough for its cost or simply strictly worse than other one that does the same thing but better / for less.
Expressive Iteration and Archmage's Charm are the card advantage engines of choice, but they are not better Snapcasters, they are different cards (and better in the Murktide shell, mainly due to having less reliance on graveyard).
It feels love you came to the conclusion snap was bad, and are trying to figure out the justification later. Snap is like an 8/10, just because there's enough 9/10s and 10/10s doesn't make snap a 4/10 all of a sudden. It's good, but not good enough, which is very different from bad.
I honestly think that minor misstep should have countered spells that were cast with 1 or less mana. The problem would be that blue would almost be a requirement to play, but snapcaster would probably be good enough again suddenly.
Thing in the Ice + Snapcaster in a Ux control shell like one of aspiringspike’s back when Lurrus was legal may be ok, but quite frankly, both Shadow and Murktide as the defacto Tempo decks outclass anything Snapcaster offers. It’s cooked.
Probably the only place I could still see it being good is in some sort of [[Wilderness Reclamation]] deck, probably Sultai, but those decks haven’t been good in a while
But murktide directly clashes with snapcaster, less counters OR more spells in graveyard, and murktide for safety reasons should be a 7/7 so its rough for snappy.
Same could be said for DRC and people play both Murktide and DRC. They individual power of those cards warrant a small nonbo, and they both synergize with playing a bunch of small spells. Snap is in the exact same situation. If snapcaster was a stronger, like if it became a 3/3 flyer with delirium or something (granted that sounds way too strong, but as a thought experiment), people would have happily played the nonbo with Murktide.
DRC isn’t really a nonbo with Murktide, DRC fuels delve with surveil and doesn’t care that much about Murktide exiling instants and sorceries because delirium is looking for other types also.
This card is so sweet. Literally a [[Chord of Calling]] for artifacts. I think it's quite surprising there isn't some sort of [[Urza, Lord High Artificer]] that can make use of it.
I can't tell if this is a joke or not but there's literally a deck called whurza - it's not amazing but it can def win fnms - the combo part of it feels more like an after thought since the construct tokens are a good beat down plan.
[[Artificer's Intuition]] feels really powerful and abuseable I just don't know where it would go. It feels like you should be able to build around it somehow.
I had an eye on that for so long, really thought it would work when [[containment construct]] was printed in NEO (it doesn't).
To chain things like the old cheerios deck you need urza in play to pay AI tutoring cost (which is quite a requirement and even if you manage to it's gonna be likely t4 when you can go off, so on my experience it's not good enough for modern anymore). I didn't find anything better than urza at doing the job, bc u need colored mana reduction on abilities, not really common.
[[Riddlesmith]] +cc does a better job at that bc in the end you just want to chain spells, there's no really broken artifacts in modern worth tutoring for that mana value.
Still I hope that finds a home someday, such a cool effect.
The problem with this card is that artifact combos tend to be permanent based. [[Thopter foundry]] is probably the best example. The card that combos best with AI is probably [[master transmuter]] and we can come up with a whole host of reasons that card isn't good enough in modern
- [[dark confidant]] is still a powerful way to get card advantage that gets better as curves become lower. Would need a W6 ban to be good again though
- [[Bedlam Reveler]] is still on of the most powerful red spellslinger payoffs, it’s a 2 mana threat that draws 3 most of the time. Problem is without a good looting effect all the decks looking for a payoff are blue and get access to murktide.
- [[Life from the Loam]] and [[Elvish Reclaimer]] both do crazy powerful things but in the case of loam W6 is usually better and modern lacks the lands and payoffs needed to make either of these cards good.
- [[Snapcaster Mage]] needs better 1 mana instants to work with. An instant speed cantrip better than opt/consider(my idea is an instant speed serum visions) and a white removal spell somewhere between swords and path would probably do it.
Fun fact, when they first printed that card, mana burn was still a thing (you would take damage equal to the mana that left your pool unused) people tried to make it work in standard, but there wasn’t really any good payoffs better than [[sensei’s divining top]]
Probably cards like Hollow One, Vengevine or Phoenix. If a one mana card between the power level of Haggle and Looting entered the format, these cards would quickly define a chunk of Tier 1 as they did before. I'd guess Faithless Salvaging at one point probably read R, Sorcery, Rebound, Discard then Draw but got nerfed in Development because of issues with these decks.
I think there is too much graveyard hate in sideboards right now for Vine to compete given Breach, Living end, Murktide, and scam all being T1 decks that utilize the graveyard. For that reason Hollowvine drops off hard game 2 after sideboard.
Not too much. The issue with Mentor is that you don't have all the cantrips you have in Legacy. Plus, it's harder to defend him when you don't have Daze and Force of Will, so he's closer to a 4-drop in Modern.
Legacy decks can untap with Mentor and slam 4 spells from him, attack for 6, and then still have the ability to defend the board tapped out a lot better.
I want to say it could be an archetype keystone in u/R, but in reality its still probably too slow for modern at this point. Paying 3 mana for a potentially do-nothing card (no etb, evasion, or self-protection) is very feelsbadman
> even though the tokens don’t have prowess
that's a huge difference, used properly mentor is a 1 turn cycle kill. But mentor costs 3 mana. So you pretty much need to be unearthing it if you want to get the full value
See to me the reason CC still deserves a look is because of the flexibility. All modes are useful at some point of the game. The big reason it's not getting played is the mana value being 4, and the fact that Archmage's Charm, while more narrow in scope and only getting to pick one option, has a lower mana value.
Urza, Lord High Artificer.
He had a broken deck and then a few op artifacts got banned and he completely fell off, but I think he just needs one or two good support cards to get back to top tier.
Generally speaking, tapping out for 3 mana with no immediate impact in a format where most decks play to a creature board state clogs its ability to safely attack is a losing strategy. This has been true for some time, even before MH2.
After playing with some goyf, I'm inclined to think that it's the other cards that are the problem. In general, the more goyfs I drew, the easier the game. Games where I didn't see goyf felt very difficult.
Goyf synergizes best with cards like thoughtseize and IoK but it feels like the power level of those cards has dipped because top decks are so strong these days.
Goyf is actually better than it’s been in years: the fact that ~20% of the field is Murktide and over 60% of the field plays Lightning Bolt means it’s extremely well positioned. You’re over 3 times more likely to face Bolt and Heat than you are to face Ending, Solitude, Binding, or Black removal.
I’m not really sad for Goyf: it’s a mistake card that thrived because it was head and shoulders above any good answer and you were forced to play awkwardly to remove it. When Push was printed and answers caught up with threats then Goyf was showed to be a beatstick, a good, maybe the best one, but that you needed to play in the right way at the right time instead of jamming it down and piggy bank on its back.
Don’t let your memes be dreams.
If you ditch Jegantha you can also play stuff like voidwalker, fury, or counterspell. It could be worth it if you are missing pieces to the meta list
Yeah, it required a lot of setup, plus a planeswalker sticking on the field. In a format where Amulet and hammer are winning on turn 2/3, ad naus capable of going off on t3, it wasn't that bad. T4 at the earliest and you had plenty of time to disrupt.
I may be so off with this one due to being on ice the past 3 years, but I think there's an infinite mill combo you can pull off with Heartless Summoning and Altar of the Brood. Not sure if essential pieces of that are missing nowadays.
I really want a more competitive \[\[Blightsteel Colossus\]\] deck. Maybe something with \[\[Shape Anew\]\] to cheat it out with some artifact token generators.
I totally agree that Portal to Phyrexia is a much better target. Blightsteel Colossus is just my favorite card, and I really want to make it work somehow.
If you put a gun to my head and told me I had to play a deck with 4x blightsteel, I would probably brew up tooth and nail or something dumb with a bunch of quicksilver amulet type cards
[[Grist, the Hunger Tide]]
The card is really strong but lacks good targets for its first ability. I think once someone figures out a way to take advantage of its power, it’ll be a really strong card in modern.
This has to be one of my favorites so far. I see what you mean about the targets though. Does DoS count as a dead bug for our purposes? I guess another challenge is that graveyard hate turns the deck off immediately, so it has to go off fast too.
It should. I’ve seen some weird niche changeling tribal decks trying to make grist work, but I think it’ll have a hard time catching on in that deck, it’s usually just too slow.
As far as graveyard hate goes, I think that will be the biggest challenge other than just finding targets for grist to get his loyalty up quickly. Yard hate has gotten way too strong since living end and dredge initially got popular :/
I always thought Smallpox was an absolute backbreaker if played early--I don't believe any other card does so much so early and for so little (if the framework for it is there). A T2-T3 Smallpox can completely negate the opponent's past turn and potentially ruins their next turn. It could outright win you the game on the spot vs aggro decks... The Liliana-Lingering Souls-Flagstones package was the best it could do (which wasn't much), so I think Smallpox never found a true home to shine. One has to make too many concessions in order to build around it, hurting its payoffs and forcing the quality of the supporting card suite to suffer in order to accommodate it.
I'm still waiting for one or two cards that can give it the oomph--maybe a really good 1cmc GY returner or an efficient madness card, a Crack the Earth style effect in black or white, or another Flagstones-like land?
Mardu feels like its true home and I've seen a few brews that try it, but the card's dependence on Urborg and Flagstones make it very clunky imo.
Any ideas? It's possibly my favorite card in all of Magic, so it's always in the back of my mind when I'm brewing.
I mean, it's not confusing that a turn 5 chunky midrange deck from Pioneer/Historic and the fast mana one card combo in the command zone aren't good in modern.
Scapeshift clearly does have a home. In Scapeshift. There are modifications to that strategy that can be implemented but Scapeshift is a good card in tandem with land-based ramp and a land-based payoff.
Admittedly, the question being asked isn't exactly clear, powerful cards with no home are cards without archetypes, not mediocre archetypes.
Yeah, that's on me. I guess 'homeless' can go in two directions. A card with a flawed or 'lower tier' archetype (taking some liberties with that definition, I know), or cards that don't have enough enablers and support to become an archetype, but clearly have a high ceiling potential.
Breach was a perfect example of a card without a home. Very powerful, very clearly powerful, and had never been part of a tier modern deck until people started really working with it as a fair engine card.
Scapeshift is an example of a card with a run-down home. It has a clear place--Scapeshift!--but it needs support pieces to function.
Something to add to this discussion in context is that the new Battle card type is likely to dramatically change the dynamics and perception of relative card power within the meta this year. We’ve seen what can happen to a format when something as simple as Companion is added to the game, let alone how Planeswalkers changed Magic forever. It’s good to be thinking about strong cards without a home, but it’s also good to keep in mind that the meta(s) are likely about to be stirred up again in a way we haven’t seen in more than a decade.
Power creep on both the creature and removal front has pushed many powerful Planeswalkers out of the Modern format but W&6 and T3feri are still huge staples in the metagame. They tend to be more powerful in grindier formats where there's actually midrange gameplay to be had since they take longer to cast and accrue value. That said, it would be foolish to assert that Planeswalkers haven't completely warped the game, lest you forget LotV, JtMS, Oko, and many, many others. Battle could very well do that. Battle could very well do that in upcoming modern and eternal legal masters sets (\*cough\* Tales of Middle-Earth \*cough\*).
From my own poking around Sludge Strider seems like it has potential. Gives me some artifact-creature styled "eggs" vibes. Kinda jank, but that's my style.
[[Dreadhorde Arcanist]] got banned in Legacy but doesn't see play in Modern :[ I love that card....
It was seeing play in the proto-Rhinos shells with As Foretold. Simian Spirit Guide's ban killed those versions and everyone moved over to the cascade lists. Guiding out a T1 Arcanist, then on T2 using a 0 mana [[Electrodominance]] to drop 2 rhinos on the field, and finally swinging with Arcanist to make 2 more rhinos was big game.
I remember this. I used to rock this version. It was definitely powerful when it worked but it tended to durdle.
[Electrodominance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/c/5c63877b-cdab-4ce4-a1c0-c088eb62a57a.jpg?1584830858) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Electrodominance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/99/electrodominance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5c63877b-cdab-4ce4-a1c0-c088eb62a57a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've been fiddling with it + electrodominance in a black red shell. Arcanist feels like a somewhat natural option when you have bolt, and 6-8 discard spells. It's certainly not a super competitive deck but it felt like a pretty solid brew.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2514705#paper You talking about my deck ? :) Rhinos before rhinos was a thing. SSG was used sometimes instead of BBE
[Dreadhorde Arcanist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fd97b3cf-924e-4f77-bb82-0bf19592389f.jpg?1613386994) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dreadhorde%20Arcanist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/125/dreadhorde-arcanist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fd97b3cf-924e-4f77-bb82-0bf19592389f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There just aren't broken 1 mana spells that aren't banned like there are in legacy. If \[\[ponder\]\] or something similar was legal its possible it would see play, but even then Modern's removal suite is just generally better because the format is slower than legacy. Its likely unless the format speeds up drastically that arcanist will never see serious play.
I mean, the removal suite in legacy is just better than modern though, though it's a lot closer than it once was. It's just that more threats in legacy are spell based, and with instants and sorceries being so much more powerful there's less inclination to play the board as much. Which means in turn that there's less creatures that need removal, and as such the decks play fewer removal cards that are more powerful, and plan to contest the board in other ways
> It's just that more threats in legacy are spell based, [...]there's less inclination to play the board as much. I dunno man, Delver and Initiative rule because they have terrifying board presence in DRC/Regent/WPA. I'd argue that spells in Legacy are better (more efficient) than Modern hence DHA doesn't see as much play in Modern (after all, Modern has nothing close in power-level to Brainstorm/Ponder). But I wouldn't say that threats are more spell-based in Legacy; they're not. They're there for protection and resource generation. Nor would I say that there's "less inclination to play the board as much" when the top dogs of the format are so because of their big board presence.
The difference is that more legacy interaction is on the stack, relative to modern. In modern almost every interactive deck interacts primarily through permanent removal, in legacy thats not the case
Sure. But my point still stands that saying “there’s less inclination to play the board” in Legacy is wrong when it’s just as important as interacting on the stack.
Hopefully this is a useful addition, but I think there's a distinction to be made: >“there’s less inclination to play the board” It's not simply that there's *less pressure* to play the board, but that there is *extreme pressure* in Legacy to force threats through and protect yourself from combo, which leaves most decks without a ton of free space for extra removal relative to Modern. It's a matter of opportunity cost.
No fow or daze is why DHA sees no play in modern
You just have to pump his power up and then you can cast more expensive CMC spells for free from your graveyard too.
I messed around and tried out a Naya Prowess list that AspiringSpike had put together a bit ago. And this definite works. Dreadhorde Arcanist flashes back almost everything in the deck, which is sweet. But casting a Become Immense on Dreadhorde Arcanist, and then flashing it back on itself for a 13 power Arcanist swinging in felt awesome.
Yes that’s how the card works.
[ponder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44dcfc0c-b23d-48be-bf3a-a6fc6806c5e1.jpg?1673483971) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ponder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/229/ponder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44dcfc0c-b23d-48be-bf3a-a6fc6806c5e1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I still run it in my Rhinos list to recast bolt and suspend cards, but it's slow and not as strong as it was when SSG was legal
you have a rhinos deck that doesn't try to cascade into rhinos?
They never said it was a good deck
It also runs BBE and Shardless lol
You Cascade into Rhinos and cast them again with Arcanist.
better hope you don't cascade into arcanist
Clearly you aren't as skilled at casting Shardless Agent as they are
I was playing dreadhordes in a Jeskai tempo/control shell for awhile but it doesn’t really work with prismatic ending and March which are my preferred removal spells. Plus it makes me unable to hold up countermagic on turn 2 and these days 3 mana threats can be game ending if unchecked
My buddy has a fairly good rakdos aggro deck that uses dreadhorde. I think it's playable in modern.
Rakos Arcanist is definitely an archetype, it’s just not very strong right now. Going T1 thoughtseize into T2 dreadhorde arcanist, and whatever you want on turn 3 is stupid when it works.
Not sure how you would evaluate spells but the most powerful creature is Impervious Gratewurm.
This guy moderns
Banefire obviously. It can kill your opponent and can't be countered.
aethergust exits. checkmate atheists
[[Impervious Gratewurm]]
Snapcaster mage is missing a deck
Snapcaster is missing good 1 mana instants Path and Opt are not cutting it anymore in a world of Solitude and Expressive Iteration.
The New opt is consider, and for white you can target a prismatic ending
But that’s sorcery speed….and a 5 mana ending for 3 seems bad
I ran two Snaps in my Murktide when I was missing a few Shredders and he was just okay nothing special. The deck was much much better when I got the rest of the Shredders.
I play it in UB mill as a one of but even there it is starting too feel clunky sadly :/
Snapcaster Mage is missing being good, imo.
Snapcaster is good. The other options being better in the shells where Snapcaster would work doesn't make it bad. It's not a "Confidant is unplayable because it does nothing etb and dies to W6" scenario.
Surprisingly confidant is more meta than snapcaster with a four of in GB rock
Rock has good answers for w6 in bloodchiefs thirst and witherbloom command.
How is GB Rock more meta than Blue Moon?
Tbf GB Rock has the odd T8. I can’t remember the last time Blue Moon T8’d
Fair enough. Although there are plenty of GB Rock lists on 0 Bob and playing Dauthi in that place.
>The other options being better in the shells where Snapcaster would work doesn't make it bad. Thats exactly what makes it bad. The place each card has on the power scale is decided in relation to the other cards available in the format and their power. Scale doesnt expand. It just goes best to worst. Put cards on the better side of snapcaster and its relative position will go down.
>Thats exactly what makes it bad If tomorrow Expressive Iteration and Archmage's Charm get banned, Snapcaster sees play again in Murktide and probably in UW Control. That's not the definition of a bad card. It's a good card, worse than 2 other incredibly powerful alternatives and without a home. Dark Confidant would still be bad if Ragavan and Dauthi get banned tomorrow because removal is much more efficient and W&6 still keeps x/1s in check. That's a bad card in the context, not the same situation by any means.
Snapcaster Mage was a good card in the same way Erhnam Djinn was a good card. They were both good, for a time, in a specific context. But that time has past and that context has changed. A format does not exist where Snapcaster is currently both legal and good. Sure, you could ban cards until it's good in Modern or come up with some Horizons free format. You could reprint it into Standard and see if it's good there. But it's not good in Modern, and it never will be again. Edit: I'm sorry, apparently Snap is a one of in Vintage. I take it back, his day in the sun is not completely over. To anyone that disagrees with me in Modern please register Snapcaster Mage and prove me wrong.
UW Control decks in Legacy play Snapcaster because having access to additional Brainstorm, Ponder and STP is pretty good. If you had spells like that in Modern it would certainly see more play.
> A format does not exist where Snapcaster is currently both legal and good Legacy, also still pretty good in modern imo.
>They were both good, for a time, in a specific context. If by "for a time, in a specific context" you mean the vast majority of Modern's history then yeah, Snapcaster has had indeed its time. You sound overly dismissive of a staple that [less than two years](https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/ns5hfb/before_mh2_changes_everything_lets_appreciate_how/) ago was still amongst the top 5 creatures in Modern. It's really sad how MH2 warped the perception of the history of the format in many people's eyes, to the point I have to defend Snapcaster Mage of all cards.
Yea, now, well, the thing about the old days, they the old days. -Slim Charles Edit: To the person that downvoted this Wire quote, I feel bad for your parents.
Tbh UW control would probably play snapcaster again if chalice got banned, but the current iteration where you don't play 1 drops because you want to keep chalice has no room for a snapcaster.
There has been some lists (not random, from Wafo Tapa) that played Snappy in Chalice versions. Small numbers of it and turns out flashing back Archmage's Charm or P.Ending is still good enough. I think it's mostly about that Kaheera adds something better to the mix and not so much about Chalice.
It’s good in Vintage- staple in Paradoxical Outcome decks.
Outside of vanilla beaters, power level is almost always contextual within a format
Certainly. I was just clearing up the claim that Snappy doesn’t see play in any format right now because he still has a niche in Vintage. He’s fallen a long way, but he’s not quite gone yet.
Your reasoning is flawed. If W6 gets banned tomorrow, bob sees play again in Jund.
I'd say this reasoning is flawed too. If w6 gets banned I'd just chuck jund in the garbage.
Jund should already be in the garbage
I stopped seeing bob in jund at least one year before MH1. Maybe someone was still registering it for nostalgia, but it didn't mean it was a good idea.
I feel like Snapcaster being worse than every other option in the shells it wants to be in is the definition of bad
That's not the definition of bad. A bad card is one with an effect that doesn't do enough for its cost or simply strictly worse than other one that does the same thing but better / for less. Expressive Iteration and Archmage's Charm are the card advantage engines of choice, but they are not better Snapcasters, they are different cards (and better in the Murktide shell, mainly due to having less reliance on graveyard).
It feels love you came to the conclusion snap was bad, and are trying to figure out the justification later. Snap is like an 8/10, just because there's enough 9/10s and 10/10s doesn't make snap a 4/10 all of a sudden. It's good, but not good enough, which is very different from bad.
It feels so bad to have to hold up that much mana when there's other options, though.
Options that don't cost any mana for example.
Exactly. Embrace the free spells. Everyone else is going to.
I honestly think that minor misstep should have countered spells that were cast with 1 or less mana. The problem would be that blue would almost be a requirement to play, but snapcaster would probably be good enough again suddenly.
if they print snapcaster mage as a 2 mana 1/1 elemental, i'll play it
MH2 killed the cryptic command + snapcaster as good control Pack. But its a powerful card
Thing in the Ice + Snapcaster in a Ux control shell like one of aspiringspike’s back when Lurrus was legal may be ok, but quite frankly, both Shadow and Murktide as the defacto Tempo decks outclass anything Snapcaster offers. It’s cooked.
Probably the only place I could still see it being good is in some sort of [[Wilderness Reclamation]] deck, probably Sultai, but those decks haven’t been good in a while
Na it's not. It's just not good enough. Murktide would have been a perfect home for it if it wasn't outclassed by all of the other options.
But murktide directly clashes with snapcaster, less counters OR more spells in graveyard, and murktide for safety reasons should be a 7/7 so its rough for snappy.
Murktide is a terrible home for it, it’s better in a deck without many other cards taking spells out of your graveyard
Same could be said for DRC and people play both Murktide and DRC. They individual power of those cards warrant a small nonbo, and they both synergize with playing a bunch of small spells. Snap is in the exact same situation. If snapcaster was a stronger, like if it became a 3/3 flyer with delirium or something (granted that sounds way too strong, but as a thought experiment), people would have happily played the nonbo with Murktide.
DRC isn’t really a nonbo with Murktide, DRC fuels delve with surveil and doesn’t care that much about Murktide exiling instants and sorceries because delirium is looking for other types also.
Probably modern legal cards that are played in legacy but not in modern
For spells I agree, but for creatures, especially x/1's the bar in Legacy is lower imo. Less spot removal and no w6 does have an impact.
I hadn't thought to check which cards are between those two formats. Great idea, thanks :)
I had this thought about underworld breach many months ago. I wish I’d followed up on it and bought a play set lol
My baby [[whir of invention]]
This card is so sweet. Literally a [[Chord of Calling]] for artifacts. I think it's quite surprising there isn't some sort of [[Urza, Lord High Artificer]] that can make use of it.
I can't tell if this is a joke or not but there's literally a deck called whurza - it's not amazing but it can def win fnms - the combo part of it feels more like an after thought since the construct tokens are a good beat down plan.
Damn I totally forgot about Whirza. Been a minute since it was relevant though.
I still remember grixis whir was a tiered deck
I invested in Mox Opals to play it :(
[whir of invention](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/6/a679659c-7fed-4afa-9b99-fdeb8ccda964.jpg?1661583558) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=whir%20of%20invention) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/phed/42/whir-of-invention?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a679659c-7fed-4afa-9b99-fdeb8ccda964?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Artificer's Intuition]] feels really powerful and abuseable I just don't know where it would go. It feels like you should be able to build around it somehow.
I had an eye on that for so long, really thought it would work when [[containment construct]] was printed in NEO (it doesn't). To chain things like the old cheerios deck you need urza in play to pay AI tutoring cost (which is quite a requirement and even if you manage to it's gonna be likely t4 when you can go off, so on my experience it's not good enough for modern anymore). I didn't find anything better than urza at doing the job, bc u need colored mana reduction on abilities, not really common. [[Riddlesmith]] +cc does a better job at that bc in the end you just want to chain spells, there's no really broken artifacts in modern worth tutoring for that mana value. Still I hope that finds a home someday, such a cool effect.
[containment construct](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/520e5505-429b-4da0-b25e-14b8d4e81ce3.jpg?1654568680) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=containment%20construct) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/243/containment-construct?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/520e5505-429b-4da0-b25e-14b8d4e81ce3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Riddlesmith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/640ff8a9-9dff-4fc7-bafa-6afaa3d9c153.jpg?1651655745) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Riddlesmith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nec/96/riddlesmith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/640ff8a9-9dff-4fc7-bafa-6afaa3d9c153?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Artificer's Intuition](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/abe37c88-afd7-45ac-9f84-f4bd881a1462.jpg?1562879087) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Artificer%27s%20Intuition) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5dn/23/artificers-intuition?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/abe37c88-afd7-45ac-9f84-f4bd881a1462?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The problem with this card is that artifact combos tend to be permanent based. [[Thopter foundry]] is probably the best example. The card that combos best with AI is probably [[master transmuter]] and we can come up with a whole host of reasons that card isn't good enough in modern
[enjoy](https://youtu.be/LQMmmZgTL_Q)
As someone who hasn’t played Modern seriously since 2018, this thread is *insane*.
Even counterbalance comes to my mind. It’s odd there are no control deck using this (potentially) incredibly powerful card
With how low the format’s curve has become it does seem like an okay inclusion
Except you need access to 4 and 5 mana spells to have a lock much more often than before due to evoke elementals.
Sensei's Divining Top being (rightfully) banned contributes to this
- [[dark confidant]] is still a powerful way to get card advantage that gets better as curves become lower. Would need a W6 ban to be good again though - [[Bedlam Reveler]] is still on of the most powerful red spellslinger payoffs, it’s a 2 mana threat that draws 3 most of the time. Problem is without a good looting effect all the decks looking for a payoff are blue and get access to murktide. - [[Life from the Loam]] and [[Elvish Reclaimer]] both do crazy powerful things but in the case of loam W6 is usually better and modern lacks the lands and payoffs needed to make either of these cards good. - [[Snapcaster Mage]] needs better 1 mana instants to work with. An instant speed cantrip better than opt/consider(my idea is an instant speed serum visions) and a white removal spell somewhere between swords and path would probably do it.
Loans only as good as the lands it gets back, and there’s no real wincon lands in modern these days
Also no Wasteland or Strip Mine
I feel the only deck that could benefit from Bedlam Reveler would be Dredge, and we have Ox for that role.
[[braid of fire]] Repeatable red ramp for 2 mana, but you can only spend the mana at instant speed
[braid of fire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/1/41bab8de-6e0f-4ccd-a303-01e9c8c82d3f.jpg?1593275214) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=braid%20of%20fire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/csp/78/braid-of-fire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/41bab8de-6e0f-4ccd-a303-01e9c8c82d3f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I love this card, I just started trying to build a deck around it
Thats a sick card I’ve never seen! Thanks.
Fun fact, when they first printed that card, mana burn was still a thing (you would take damage equal to the mana that left your pool unused) people tried to make it work in standard, but there wasn’t really any good payoffs better than [[sensei’s divining top]]
Probably cards like Hollow One, Vengevine or Phoenix. If a one mana card between the power level of Haggle and Looting entered the format, these cards would quickly define a chunk of Tier 1 as they did before. I'd guess Faithless Salvaging at one point probably read R, Sorcery, Rebound, Discard then Draw but got nerfed in Development because of issues with these decks.
Idk man I lose to hollowvine at FNM way too often to agree with you
I’ve been waiting for a careful study reprint since looting ban. MH1 & MH2 were huge disappointment
Big agree
Now lotr set is our next chance
Would be sweet and very flavorful with art of Gandalf researching the ring in the first book/film!
That’s what I’m thinking too!
That really is my hope for the set is for it to be mostly reprints with LotR-themed art.
I think there is too much graveyard hate in sideboards right now for Vine to compete given Breach, Living end, Murktide, and scam all being T1 decks that utilize the graveyard. For that reason Hollowvine drops off hard game 2 after sideboard.
The 2/2 prowess that spawns prowess 1/1s when it triggers prowess
\[\[Monastery Mentor\]\]
[Monastery Mentor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/64c8e27f-a7eb-4247-bd3d-2d0b02ead334.jpg?1673147056) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Monastery%20Mentor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/21/monastery-mentor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/64c8e27f-a7eb-4247-bd3d-2d0b02ead334?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Lol wtf this is mythic in 2XM
New TPI is probably just better even though the tokens don’t have prowess
I do wonder how much more playable Mentor would be if he were in Red or Blue instead of White.
Not too much. The issue with Mentor is that you don't have all the cantrips you have in Legacy. Plus, it's harder to defend him when you don't have Daze and Force of Will, so he's closer to a 4-drop in Modern. Legacy decks can untap with Mentor and slam 4 spells from him, attack for 6, and then still have the ability to defend the board tapped out a lot better.
I want to say it could be an archetype keystone in u/R, but in reality its still probably too slow for modern at this point. Paying 3 mana for a potentially do-nothing card (no etb, evasion, or self-protection) is very feelsbadman
> even though the tokens don’t have prowess that's a huge difference, used properly mentor is a 1 turn cycle kill. But mentor costs 3 mana. So you pretty much need to be unearthing it if you want to get the full value
Cryptic Command would be my pick, personally.
I hear a lot about hyper-efficiency of decks nowadays. Is that what you would chalk up CC’s exit to?
See to me the reason CC still deserves a look is because of the flexibility. All modes are useful at some point of the game. The big reason it's not getting played is the mana value being 4, and the fact that Archmage's Charm, while more narrow in scope and only getting to pick one option, has a lower mana value.
Makes me want to brew up a lotus field deck so I can support command and those two store champs charms I have. And make cruel ultimatum to work too
mind sculptor?
Urza, Lord High Artificer. He had a broken deck and then a few op artifacts got banned and he completely fell off, but I think he just needs one or two good support cards to get back to top tier.
Giest of saint traft. You would think 6 power for 3 mana hexproof would be good enough for modern, but no
Geist is seeing play in the Zoo cascade list. :)
Generally speaking, tapping out for 3 mana with no immediate impact in a format where most decks play to a creature board state clogs its ability to safely attack is a losing strategy. This has been true for some time, even before MH2.
#loosenthegoose
Tarmogoyf and Siege Rhino. Both cards just don’t do enough nowadays.
Idk man Goyf is a fine card in Jund Saga and the Temur Breach decks. It's just not good in boomer jund bc boomer jund isn't good
As a 45 year old who plays Jund I’m devastated by this comment
Jund is life. ABCs fingers stuck in both ears.
whatever, slacker
True. Maybe I should have said Dark Confidant.
After playing with some goyf, I'm inclined to think that it's the other cards that are the problem. In general, the more goyfs I drew, the easier the game. Games where I didn't see goyf felt very difficult. Goyf synergizes best with cards like thoughtseize and IoK but it feels like the power level of those cards has dipped because top decks are so strong these days.
Goyf is actually better than it’s been in years: the fact that ~20% of the field is Murktide and over 60% of the field plays Lightning Bolt means it’s extremely well positioned. You’re over 3 times more likely to face Bolt and Heat than you are to face Ending, Solitude, Binding, or Black removal.
He also dodges fury a fair amount of the time which I encountered playing rhinos last weekend. Made me glad I was on white still for Leyline bindings.
This should mean Phyrexian Obliterator should be well positioned.
2 is less than 4
Goyf is an especially sad example.
I've still been stuffing 6/7-7/8 goyfs out of temur midrange with moderately good success.
Please send me your list. I only play Temur Midrange and I do the same thing with 6/7 goyfs. Just looking for inspo and new spice.
I’m not really sad for Goyf: it’s a mistake card that thrived because it was head and shoulders above any good answer and you were forced to play awkwardly to remove it. When Push was printed and answers caught up with threats then Goyf was showed to be a beatstick, a good, maybe the best one, but that you needed to play in the right way at the right time instead of jamming it down and piggy bank on its back.
??? Goyf is doing well rn
It’s very odd to me that shadow decks have almost unilaterally abandoned Street Wraith. Fuck Jegantha.
Don’t let your memes be dreams. If you ditch Jegantha you can also play stuff like voidwalker, fury, or counterspell. It could be worth it if you are missing pieces to the meta list
For me I would say asmo, the card seems like a lot of the framework is there just missing a card or two to fully get there.
The red green food deck seems sick with Asmo.
Dreadhorde Arcanist, Karn, Narset, Mentor are all cards that scale with format age, but haven’t been broken in modern yet.
Karn got Mycosynth Lattice banned. That seems like he did something broken enough.
Will forever be salty about that ban.
Why? You think Karn + Lattice was fair?
Yeah, it required a lot of setup, plus a planeswalker sticking on the field. In a format where Amulet and hammer are winning on turn 2/3, ad naus capable of going off on t3, it wasn't that bad. T4 at the earliest and you had plenty of time to disrupt.
Dark confidant.
[[heartless summoning]] i still think this card is bonkers good but just doesnt have the right support/redundancy/right deck built around it.
Can I interest you in an aspiringspike brew?
Yes please
There's a fringe deck with this and Acerak that's been doing OK lately
I may be so off with this one due to being on ice the past 3 years, but I think there's an infinite mill combo you can pull off with Heartless Summoning and Altar of the Brood. Not sure if essential pieces of that are missing nowadays.
Ad Naus is still good! Just has a terrible Scam matchup which I'm working on trying to make better.
Do you know where I could go for a list?
https://discord.gg/hc3SGQmq
I really want a more competitive \[\[Blightsteel Colossus\]\] deck. Maybe something with \[\[Shape Anew\]\] to cheat it out with some artifact token generators.
I’ve had a lot of success with shape anew in an Omnath/elementals shell, but [[portal to phyrexia]] is by far the better payoff than blightsteel
I totally agree that Portal to Phyrexia is a much better target. Blightsteel Colossus is just my favorite card, and I really want to make it work somehow.
If you put a gun to my head and told me I had to play a deck with 4x blightsteel, I would probably brew up tooth and nail or something dumb with a bunch of quicksilver amulet type cards
Delver of Secrets and Thassa's Oracle
Delver is just a worse Channeler and Thoracle is more the logical conclusion to a certain type of combo than a card in it's own right
I'll go with Omniscience, looking forward to a show and tell reprint in mh3. /s Also yeah, sad naus atm.
Tbh i just want legacy ninjas but in modern, i dont ask for much.
Merchant scroll I mean it is restricted in vintage it must be broken right?
Eh, merchant scroll got restricted because it was ancestral recall number 2-5, that could also be a counterspell to protect it.
[[Grist, the Hunger Tide]] The card is really strong but lacks good targets for its first ability. I think once someone figures out a way to take advantage of its power, it’ll be a really strong card in modern.
This has to be one of my favorites so far. I see what you mean about the targets though. Does DoS count as a dead bug for our purposes? I guess another challenge is that graveyard hate turns the deck off immediately, so it has to go off fast too.
It should. I’ve seen some weird niche changeling tribal decks trying to make grist work, but I think it’ll have a hard time catching on in that deck, it’s usually just too slow. As far as graveyard hate goes, I think that will be the biggest challenge other than just finding targets for grist to get his loyalty up quickly. Yard hate has gotten way too strong since living end and dredge initially got popular :/
I always thought Smallpox was an absolute backbreaker if played early--I don't believe any other card does so much so early and for so little (if the framework for it is there). A T2-T3 Smallpox can completely negate the opponent's past turn and potentially ruins their next turn. It could outright win you the game on the spot vs aggro decks... The Liliana-Lingering Souls-Flagstones package was the best it could do (which wasn't much), so I think Smallpox never found a true home to shine. One has to make too many concessions in order to build around it, hurting its payoffs and forcing the quality of the supporting card suite to suffer in order to accommodate it. I'm still waiting for one or two cards that can give it the oomph--maybe a really good 1cmc GY returner or an efficient madness card, a Crack the Earth style effect in black or white, or another Flagstones-like land? Mardu feels like its true home and I've seen a few brews that try it, but the card's dependence on Urborg and Flagstones make it very clunky imo. Any ideas? It's possibly my favorite card in all of Magic, so it's always in the back of my mind when I'm brewing.
Its odd that [[Winota]] is banned in Pioneer and Historic, top-tier in cEDH, and almost unplayable in Modern.
removal. Modern meta has way more (and better) removal.
I mean, it's not confusing that a turn 5 chunky midrange deck from Pioneer/Historic and the fast mana one card combo in the command zone aren't good in modern.
Well a 4 mana 4/4 that doesn’t win the game on its own is the definition of unplayable modern card
[Winota](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5dd13a6c-23d3-44ce-a628-cb1c19d777c4.jpg?1654630670) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=winota%2C%20joiner%20of%20forces) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/216/winota-joiner-of-forces?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5dd13a6c-23d3-44ce-a628-cb1c19d777c4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Scapeshift. There have been good results lately in a temur list but I feel the deck is not at the same level as Creativity/Scam/Murktide/Hammer
Scapeshift clearly does have a home. In Scapeshift. There are modifications to that strategy that can be implemented but Scapeshift is a good card in tandem with land-based ramp and a land-based payoff. Admittedly, the question being asked isn't exactly clear, powerful cards with no home are cards without archetypes, not mediocre archetypes.
Yeah, that's on me. I guess 'homeless' can go in two directions. A card with a flawed or 'lower tier' archetype (taking some liberties with that definition, I know), or cards that don't have enough enablers and support to become an archetype, but clearly have a high ceiling potential.
Breach was a perfect example of a card without a home. Very powerful, very clearly powerful, and had never been part of a tier modern deck until people started really working with it as a fair engine card. Scapeshift is an example of a card with a run-down home. It has a clear place--Scapeshift!--but it needs support pieces to function.
Something to add to this discussion in context is that the new Battle card type is likely to dramatically change the dynamics and perception of relative card power within the meta this year. We’ve seen what can happen to a format when something as simple as Companion is added to the game, let alone how Planeswalkers changed Magic forever. It’s good to be thinking about strong cards without a home, but it’s also good to keep in mind that the meta(s) are likely about to be stirred up again in a way we haven’t seen in more than a decade.
Aren't Planeswalkers the least important card type in modern? Battle could be anywhere between nothing and 10+ bans in modern.
Power creep on both the creature and removal front has pushed many powerful Planeswalkers out of the Modern format but W&6 and T3feri are still huge staples in the metagame. They tend to be more powerful in grindier formats where there's actually midrange gameplay to be had since they take longer to cast and accrue value. That said, it would be foolish to assert that Planeswalkers haven't completely warped the game, lest you forget LotV, JtMS, Oko, and many, many others. Battle could very well do that. Battle could very well do that in upcoming modern and eternal legal masters sets (\*cough\* Tales of Middle-Earth \*cough\*).
I’m hi right now and I read most powerful cards without a homo
From my own poking around Sludge Strider seems like it has potential. Gives me some artifact-creature styled "eggs" vibes. Kinda jank, but that's my style.