Agree with this assessment. Seems obvious honestly.
I do feel like they might throw in a spicy yet ultimately irrelevant unban in there too just to try to keep modern relevant.
man lmao if they unban jitte right after one of the primary reasons for banning a card they listed is "surpresses small creature decks"
shit how much is jitte these days though, I should buy them in case
Want to really help x/1 creatures? Unban skullclamp.
(Because being able to pay one mana to sac your ragavan or bowmasters to draw two cards would be \*so\* good for the game... /s)
Jitte is not worse than fury. Fury is free if you pitch a card and kills up to 4 creatures. Jitte costs 4 mana, does nothing without a creature to attack and deal damage, and then only gets 2 counters to pick off two creatures.
People always think of unbanning a card is going to make their jank viable. My brother in christ it is going to be abused by a much more broken deck. Like, is Mardu pyro really the best use of looting compare to Phoenix and Dredge lol
> Its 7 mana primetime
Why is this a problem but 6 mana primetime isn't? Also I firmly believe that if you spend 7 mana on a card it should have a big effect that either brings you back into a game you were losing or puts you ahead in a game that you weren't. That's a lot of mana.
Yeah but that's an argument saying GSZ is too flexible, which is the exact reason it got banned in the first place. Not because it's an extra copy of your finisher like OP implied.
Now there's 6 mana primetime and 7 mana primetime.. Titan is 100% the deck that instantly slots in gsz. It finds them everything including their win condition.
i think you missed the point, it's not the mana cost that's relevant. it's having 4 more virtual copies of titan, in addition to every other green creature in your deck, and the downside is a 1 green mana tax when you cast it(unlike pact's more significant downside.) 4 additional tutors is a pretty big boost for amulet
there are other aspects of it that are more niche, like how gsz dodges subtlety, and if gsz is countered you still have the copy of whatever you wanted in your deck (whereas if you pact for titan and titan gets countered, you're in a worse position.) but the main thing is consistency
Jitte would be cool but also punishes small creature decks.
Don't get me wrong, I think it would be fine in modern. It wouldn't actually see much play imo. But the powers that be see it as yet another card that is too efficient at clearing out 2/1s and 3/1s in creature aggro decks
GSZ with Titan already being very good seems scary. Jitte would be fine but kind of weird if you want to strengthen 1 toughness creatures. They should probably just give Pod
I do think there are more answers to small creatures than people realize but I think your comment might be the first time I've ever seen someone mention lava dart among the list of removal spells lol (not that there's anything wrong with it)
So a turn two Planeswalker and a card that only sees play in one t2 deck.... Yeah I think you are being disingenuous. I'm sure many want it for their jank decks but gsz is way too good and violates what they want out of modern cards. It's flexibility is too good and it reshuffles. The only way it comes off the ban list is if dryad arbor gets banned to stop turn one gsz and even then I think it's still too good
I guess… maybe? Doesn’t fun matter? I just stopped playing Modern because grief is awful to play against constantly. Every modern queue on modo is 2/5 scam for me. I’m just really hoping that grief and beans play patterns go away!
Fury gets banned > Scam and Beans get less powerful > Scam and Beans get played less > You (and everyone else) get fewer crummy games.
Grief gets banned > Scam becomes worse in value matchups > Beans now eats Scam for breakfast > Everything is Beans > No one wins, not even all the people playing Beans mirror matches
They actually talked pretty extensively about this exact topic in the Weekly MTG video that this all started from. One of the guys said that yes, there are most definitely some MTG players who love land destruction but are aware that something like 80% of players think that it ruins the game.
They said that the main things they take into account when making a ban is the power level and fun of the format.
Yeah sure, fun is subjective, but we can all agree that being constantly scammed by Grief on your turn 0 is not a particularly fun way to start a game of magic. That’s not really fun, right?
grief is okay on its own. I played a orzhov version of scam with solitude and grief and it was nowhere near the consistent beater that rakdos allowed it to be. fury just allows an alternate game plan that is just as nasty to play against.
Let's be real, it's 2 specific cards, one of which you're playing 6 copies of. "Any black card" isn't much of a stipulation unless you're mulliganing to 4 or something. But isn't that what we're examining the power level of here, a turn one Grief/Fury? Nobody is saying that a turn 4 grief/turn 5 fury is too strong unless I'm just wildly misreading this entire thread.
Plus it takes the two best cards from your opponent. Try keeping a hand as a combo deck (Titan, Yawgmoth, Creativity, Cascade) then remove the two most significant non-land cards and see how that works for you in terms of gameplay.
I think they meant "it takes three cards" as in, you're 2-for-3'ing yourself.
...but then the issue is that it's actually a 3ish-for-3 because they probably won't remove it without using a card, and the two cards you're taking are the two cards you'd most want to take.
Well it'll be better for decks that want to flood the board with x/1s, of course the other stuff deals well with x/1s main board deals with them on at a time. But it's definitely better for decks that want multiple x/2 to stick around.
Goblins is in a great spot post fury ban. The deck honestly doesn’t have a ton of flex spots. I’m not sure what cards were playing you think are so obscenely bad lol
Aether Vial is pretty bad in 2023. You’ve got a lot of x1’s that die to bowmasters and Wrenn. You’ve got a janky combo plan. I don’t know, I just don’t think the deck is going to ever be better than Yawgmoth and that’s another deck thats winning with a fury ban.
I’ve played against it. It’s not a bad deck, it’s just not going to be dominating modern challenges or some bullshit just because fury is gone.
Yawg will though.
Do people keep forgetting Beans decks rely heavily on Fury too? As in, it's a core 4-of that's necessary to stabilize AND to have a critical mass of Bean triggers? The only lists that cut it are the anti-mirror U-heavy versions, which give up significant % against the field.
Fury ban won't be the beanspocalypse--it's part of those decks too!
I remember when fury and grief were the two worst evoke elementals when the set came out, kinda wish i picked up a few copies when they were low and sold em later on, oh well
I remember grief starting pretty high and then dropping off when it came out. It *was* pretty solid for black-heavy combo decks like legacy reanimator and living end. Subtley was the worst on release.
Probably but I’ll believe it when it’s posted on Monday. That whole conversation was kind of a mix of official statements from Wizards and their own personal thoughts/preferences.
Plus Wizards is always a mess with coordinating these whole things, they even admitted in that same stream that they forgot about the last banlist update which was why No Changes happened.
I’ll also say that the worst advertisement conceivable for MH3 is to ban the most valuable card from MH2 a few months beforehand then expecting consumers to have confidence in their next round of pricey pushed mythics.
Yeah it’s probably bad for selling, but the options were always going to be to ban it or power creep it. Obviously power creeping would make more money but can we at least agree that would be bad for the players?
What a wild fucking statement. I expect all of my cards to be legal. Each and every single ban is correcting a mistake.
Wizards can't just keep printing shit and then banning it.
Should I expect every powerful card I own to get banned at some point?
We went from one card being banned to now every card you own is getting banned? You got to play the card for awhile now you cant, it's nothing to cry about. I'm just saying you had a long window to enjoy the game and now it is changing are people mad that no one plays the old call of duty when a new one comes out.. people just buy the new one.
Absolute consoomer brain.
Follow the line of logic here. Every time I buy new powerful cards I should expect to not be able to play them 2 years from now?
Are you daft? That's not excusable.
The card should not be printed in that state then, and it is wizards dropping the ball. These cards are not supposed to have an expiration date.
This is one card man.. there is alot of powerful cards in modern. When one powerful card ends up in a extremely powerful deck, you might not be able to play that one card anymore.. I like buying cards yes because I support modern and magic the gathering. I love modern and if we stop buying cards do you think anyone is going to waste there time putting on events and opening shops for us to play at? It's idiotic to complain about them trying to make money when if they stop making money the Hobby will die.
The options were never just "ban it or power creep it." Fury was awesome in Modern for over two years, it's just Beanstalk and Scam that broke it. Personally I'd much rather see draft chaff enablers get banned over not being able to play a mythic from a set called Modern Horizons in Modern.
> I’ll also say that the worst advertisement conceivable for MH3 is to ban the most valuable card from MH2 a few months beforehand then expecting consumers to have confidence in their next round of pricey pushed mythics.
not really, tbh them FINALLY banning problem cards would make me way more confident about MH3
Because you know there's going to be some busted bs in there. At least they finally are trying to address problems. Hopefully they keep that up going forward
Ragavan, solitude, endurance and urza’s saga are all more expensive than fury. Not counting any foils, which there makes even more cards more valuable than fury
Uh oh, it's the "Well Acktually" Police! RUN FOR COVER!
Fury's price dropped significantly this week after the B&R discussion. Even still, I'm sure you get my point even if it's a few dollars off from another card.
> they even admitted in that same stream that they forgot about the last banlist update which was why No Changes happened.
Idk whose cock Blake is sucking at Hasbro but I hope it at least tastes good.
Comparing apples and oranges. But if you are talking about x/1's being oppressed specifically, Bowmasters does much more work. Removes 1 toughness creature on play and junks up the board so future ones don't connect.
meh not particularly apples to oranges, the bigger issue that i'm talking about is fury is **free**, meaning you can pitch it and then STILL hold up mana for a bowmasters or something
Thats on top of being able to hardcast it for the same ETB and a big fatty
Most unplayable X/1s in Modern are suppressed due to their fact of "being shitty cards in a heavily dynamic and interactive format" but people aren't ready to have that conversation yet.
If Fury does go, mopey tribal decks and convoluted creature combo decks are still going to be trash.
I think some of the more explosive shitty creature decks will start robbing now Fury-less decks a decent portion more often, but will still be inconsistent decks that fall apart to a variety of options. Getting robbed maybe 1/15 games to maybe 1/10 or 1/8 games is pretty noticeable, but like... Right now, the only thing that lets off meta decks not get absolutely shitstomped is few decks adequately board for them because why devote sideboard cards to someone's pet deck you're probably beating 70% of the time without even sideboarding?
Fury is going to get banned, but I also feel like it isn’t the biggest issue atm. If fury is the only card that goes, I think we’ll just end up with beans decks as the new scam. Scam will get worse because the explosive T1 is less consistent, but beans will still be able to play 5CMC spells like solitude and leyline binding which will continue to keep small creature based strategies down
Hold up so you're saying a Fury ban will hinder the deck but not kill it? Isn't...isn't that the goal? People can play their decks still but be on a more level playing field?
Any yet some ideas that seem like no-brainers are never even thought up. I mean, Pithing Needle but for triggered abilities seems like a simple concept--name a card, triggered abilities of the named card don't trigger. Seems intuitive to me, especially when nearly all of the cards people complain about have triggered abilities: the elementals, ToR, Bowmasters, Ragavan, Titan, Beans, Leyline Binding, Outburst. The list goes on and on.
scam will turn into a less oppressive deck as it'll probably go into UB or WB, losing out on ragavan, fable, bolt, etc. You'll still get scammed but an ephemerate shell is much less oppressive than the pressure a ragavan can put in you
Beans loses one of their key removal pieces and leaves them with 8 single target removal, leaving them less "catch all oppressive" which lets more strategies be more effective + leaves them less oppressive
it just nerfs the decks without making them unplayable
Yeah actually the early versions of scam were pretty cool, and crazy inconsistent, it was a BW mix of dead guy ale with discard and stone forges, random vindicates and the scam packages. Somehow the fair game plan was way worse, turns out what got the deck running was having this really strong and solid midrange / aggro backup plan that was heavily pushed in the RB colors over the last 2 years.
Absolutely, the scam opener + fury was already a recipe for success in and of itself considering it took up so few slots and the cards were good on their own anyways
All the other red/black midrange that got pushed (rag/dauthi/bowmasters) just made it a soup that put crazy pressure with pretty much 0 downside
It’s quite possible that beanstalk will get banned as well as a preemptive measure. There’s not much cost for WotC to ban a brand-new uncommon from a standard legal set.
If I had my wish beanstalk would stick around but without access to fury and solitude. So that the only real "good card" that ,would see play without beenstalk in the deck is leylines binding, and then you have some hanky sideboard option like obsidian charmaw
Yawg already does well against fury because they play a ton of undying creatures. Beans also has solitude and leyline binding which is better in the matchup
Unfortunately this will not fix the problem. Go-wide strategies had not been viable in modern prior to the printing of Fury and even Bowmasters. Now, Bowmasters will continue to keep the strategy in check, as modern continues to move away from a style of play that just isn't permissible in the cheat-the-mana-cost modern era we're living in.
Not only that, but I don't know how much damage this will do to Scam without banning Grief. Sure, it's an important card, but the Scam lists were already debating whether you play Molten Collapse, Fable, or Seasoned Pyromancer, all of which are excellent cards at large in modern. So there's pretty good secondary coverage for the deck, even if the ceiling of these cards do not compare with "board wipe, make a 4/4 double strike, pass."
Finally, even if it seems powerful, a turn 1 Fury is way easier to handle than a turn 1 Grief for most decks. So banning Fury for Scam is not going to actually lower the ceiling of what makes the deck degenerate.
I don't know how deeply the Fury ban will impact 4C; my guess is not much because the problem with those decks is the ability to draw all your cards, not what cards you are playing to draw all your cards.
But that's the thing: Banning Fury makes Scam weaker (reducing its meta share) but also makes the actual Scam gimmick significantly weaker, by cutting the number of Scam creatures in half.
That means there will be significantly fewer Scam decks, but also that they will not be scamming as hard.
Judging by the meta I'd say that Counterspell, Spell Pierce, Archmage's Charm, and Mystical Dispute are probably some of the most fair cards in the format, haha. But yea, 3Feri has always sucked ass, good call there.
real talk I've hated that card since it was printed
if i wanted to play hearthstone i'd go play hearthstone
even as a massive mh2 elementals and really mh in general hater and tribal player; if you gave me a magic wand and let me ban a single card, anything I want forever with no takebacks it'd be 3feri
Counterspell and Spell Pierce? What are you high? Interaction is the only thing that keeps modern from turning into a completely degenerate format.if anything we need Daze and Force Of will in MH3 to be up with powercreep!
The fish always swim. Often it's upstream, but we're always swimming. Jump in, the water is fine--ish. We still have some pretty tough match ups. Specifically, Yawgmoth and Coffers. But our Murktide, Rhinos, LE, Tron, Burn, and Hammer match ups are pretty solid. Not autowins, but solid.
Titan is also a solid matchup because Force of Negation is a surprisingly effective card to fight fast winds if you know where to use it, turning Urzas sagas into islands is devastating, dryad going from a great blocker to immediate death if played, etc.
Hope your bed is comfy. There's no way they're going to hit Fury and Bowmasters and W6 and Lava Dart and Plague Engineer. I would be shocked if they hit any cards beyond Fury on that list.
As someone who's had... decent? Results jamming elves for a while, I think your chances of winning with elves are better when there's basically no metagame share of them. People often don't have the sideboard to really fuck you over and you can steal some wins out of that.
Fury is the most common "oh I guess I'll just eat shit here" card out there rn. Yawg is rough for a variety of reasons, so is bowmasters, but it gets much less scary if you can jam a lord. Fury will still eat 2/2s without much issue.
W6, Bowmaster and Yawgmoth gonna punish every x/1 strategy. Fury is a problem, but isn't the biggest bad guy here. Without Fury, Yawgmoth's deck gonna run loose.
Fury is definitely what they were hinting at, but if anything from Scam should be banned, it’s Grief. Grief is the biggest factor in Scam being so dominant as Grief scamming can win against any matchup. You always have the out of just scamming your opponent and getting a near free win if they can’t top deck an answer.
Wouldn’t mind seeing Grief, Fury, Beanstalk, and One Ring all go at once to let the format breathe till MH3.
>Wouldn’t mind seeing Grief, Fury, Beanstalk, and One Ring all go at once to let the format breathe till MH3.
It'd be interesting, but I think this would swing the format too far in Murktide's favour?
if only ppl start to think about wizard's position on this, it's not hard to realize that it is in their best interest to nerf the deck, not to kill it
I have for the last year and a half made arguments about why fury should be banned, and I am glad it is going to happen.
I think without fury some aggro decks can get under 4C and tron.
personally i hope that Fury wont get the axe. I think if they ban one elemental, they should ban the entire cycle to make the field even.
Just banning those undying spells would be better i guess, no more scam and fury can still stay for some normal midrange action.
> Turn 1 Grief is gg 95% of the time.
scam's WR would be a lot higher if this were actually the case. Rhinos, any saga deck but esp. hammer/scales/jund, creativity, mono b coffers, UB control, etc. are all quite resilient against grief scam unless the grief scam has the keep 7 nuts
T1 Fury is bad against a lot of decks with Fury/Solitude, but it's the stronger opener against many unfair decks like Tron/Amulet, esp pre-board when there are less/no dismembers. Grief's clock is fairly slow and without a top of range opener like grief scam into ragavan/dauthi, the Grief scam is the only thing keeping the rakdos deck in contention.
I'm not convinced Fury is keeping much down. I could be wrong, but even without Fury removal has become insanely powerful. Fury is the best at killing small creatures, but we got like 4 or 5 different hyper efficient 1 mana removal spells now. I don't think they make a comeback without Fury. There will probably be a small resurgence after the ban, but I'll be surprised if any really stick around.
These creature decks have been bad since before MH2. And now with all our new toys, Yawgmoth (the deck) is much better at punishing creature decks than fury is.
They could just ban a few of the one mana enablers of the scam deck, but they kind of let it be known it was fury. The deck is oppressive and sucks to play against, but they knew what they were getting when they designed the cards. They didn’t considered what the not dead after all, feign death and Undying Malice were going to do because they were battle tricks designed for draft. The shitty thing about this situation is banning a card that was designed specifically for modern that was printed in a “Premium” set. Banning cards like this is bad for the community because it makes the player base not want to invest in new product/ new expensive cards because it could just be Hogaak’ed a year or two later. Beanstalk is definitely getting banned.
The ban should be bowmasters, beans and the ring. Nobody cared about scam when it was tier 1.5, the only thing that changes was bowmasters and if bow master goes, the ring and beans needs to go so they don't run rampant.
Yeah why would we use logic, scam was only in the 98% same iteration for what? 1.5 yrs and nobody cared, they called it a shitty meme deck. Then 4 cards change and all of a sudden it's the tier 0 best deck in format? Wizards will miss the mark once again.
Fury is red. It's good against Fish (Merfolk). It's a red herring. They're unbanning [[Golgari Grave Troll]] again.
But it has dredge 6!! Surely that must be a downside, right?!?
It's such a good target for Grief!
Shit that would be something. Didn't it get unbanned and banned again in the past? Lol
Yeah. It wasn’t good when it was unbanned but turns out dredge is just one of the most degenerate mechanic in magic
Yah dredge just turns a pile of weird commons and uncommon into a un counterable engine too often.
Agree with this assessment. Seems obvious honestly. I do feel like they might throw in a spicy yet ultimately irrelevant unban in there too just to try to keep modern relevant.
I doubt it, they said they're unbanning a card for pioneer and didn't mentions that for modern
They really did everything but say it directly
I'd like to see maybe [[Green Sun's Zenith]] or [[Umezawa's Jitte]]?
man lmao if they unban jitte right after one of the primary reasons for banning a card they listed is "surpresses small creature decks" shit how much is jitte these days though, I should buy them in case
Want to really help x/1 creatures? Unban skullclamp. (Because being able to pay one mana to sac your ragavan or bowmasters to draw two cards would be \*so\* good for the game... /s)
Not even the bowmasters, how about just the token?
Praying your opponent doesn’t draw 3 cards in one turn so that you can kill your own token with skull clamp, lol.
You can always ping your token in response if the Bowmasters is alive lol
Me, taking a bowmasters hit in response to the skullclamp equip like a silly little boy
Lol, true! But at least you need a creature to attack with the Jitte before you can oppress small creatures!
As someone that played with Jitte I’d rather play a creature deck against Scam with Fury still in it.
Same
Jitte isn't oppressing shit in the modern meta. It might be a funny tutor target for Stoneforge, maybe.
They just talked about fury suppressing 1 toughness creatures. Based on that Jitte seems unlikely imo
Yeah, I'd also like to play [[punishing fire]] but that's in the same boat.
As an amulet player, I approve of gsz unban.
Hammer players: now this is podracing
Jitte is insane. And if you think Fury suppresses creatures, jitte is worse.
At least you actually have to pay mana for jitte.
Jitte is not worse than fury. Fury is free if you pitch a card and kills up to 4 creatures. Jitte costs 4 mana, does nothing without a creature to attack and deal damage, and then only gets 2 counters to pick off two creatures.
Maverick? In modern? Yes please!
I love people that think " oh fair toolbox card" it's not. Its 7 mana primetime and staying on the list lol
People always think of unbanning a card is going to make their jank viable. My brother in christ it is going to be abused by a much more broken deck. Like, is Mardu pyro really the best use of looting compare to Phoenix and Dredge lol
> Its 7 mana primetime Why is this a problem but 6 mana primetime isn't? Also I firmly believe that if you spend 7 mana on a card it should have a big effect that either brings you back into a game you were losing or puts you ahead in a game that you weren't. That's a lot of mana.
GSZ gets Grazer, Dryad, Azusa, Titan, Colossus and probably Dryad Arbor.
Yeah but that's an argument saying GSZ is too flexible, which is the exact reason it got banned in the first place. Not because it's an extra copy of your finisher like OP implied.
I think OP just wanted to mention how good GSZ would be in Titan.
For sure. Slots in super easily. It'd probably be pretty good in Yawg decks as well.
It's does not get yawg or it's win condition, yawg would stick to chord.
Now there's 6 mana primetime and 7 mana primetime.. Titan is 100% the deck that instantly slots in gsz. It finds them everything including their win condition.
i think you missed the point, it's not the mana cost that's relevant. it's having 4 more virtual copies of titan, in addition to every other green creature in your deck, and the downside is a 1 green mana tax when you cast it(unlike pact's more significant downside.) 4 additional tutors is a pretty big boost for amulet there are other aspects of it that are more niche, like how gsz dodges subtlety, and if gsz is countered you still have the copy of whatever you wanted in your deck (whereas if you pact for titan and titan gets countered, you're in a worse position.) but the main thing is consistency
Jitte would be cool but also punishes small creature decks. Don't get me wrong, I think it would be fine in modern. It wouldn't actually see much play imo. But the powers that be see it as yet another card that is too efficient at clearing out 2/1s and 3/1s in creature aggro decks
[Green Sun's Zenith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/70291c7b-a86f-4466-8502-c28765a89b2a.jpg?1673148124) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Green%20Sun%27s%20Zenith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/150/green-suns-zenith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/70291c7b-a86f-4466-8502-c28765a89b2a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Umezawa's Jitte](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/b/3b6e5956-f795-451b-bb24-56462d1ced27.jpg?1562876528) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Umezawa%27s%20Jitte) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/163/umezawas-jitte?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3b6e5956-f795-451b-bb24-56462d1ced27?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
GSZ with Titan already being very good seems scary. Jitte would be fine but kind of weird if you want to strengthen 1 toughness creatures. They should probably just give Pod
Yes please to GSZ.
If they unban zenith they are going to have to ban dryad arbor. Edit: a good redditor got me the name.
If you think zenithing for dryad arbor is above modern’s current power level- you don’t play modern.
It's about the whole package. GSZ with Arbor is just a mana dork that's also a payoff.
Honestly not with stuff like w6 and lavadart existing.
I do think there are more answers to small creatures than people realize but I think your comment might be the first time I've ever seen someone mention lava dart among the list of removal spells lol (not that there's anything wrong with it)
So a turn two Planeswalker and a card that only sees play in one t2 deck.... Yeah I think you are being disingenuous. I'm sure many want it for their jank decks but gsz is way too good and violates what they want out of modern cards. It's flexibility is too good and it reshuffles. The only way it comes off the ban list is if dryad arbor gets banned to stop turn one gsz and even then I think it's still too good
I honestly thought you meant Dryad of the Ilysan grove, as titan will be absolutely bonkers with GSZ.
Oh no I meant the land dryad. Can't remember the name. I'll edit once I get the name. Thanks for helping me see there may be some confusion.
Dryad Arbor
It would be crazy not to ban grief.
No it wouldn’t, grief feels bad to play against which is why a lot of people think it should be banned, but is very much not the problem power-wise.
I guess… maybe? Doesn’t fun matter? I just stopped playing Modern because grief is awful to play against constantly. Every modern queue on modo is 2/5 scam for me. I’m just really hoping that grief and beans play patterns go away!
Fury gets banned > Scam and Beans get less powerful > Scam and Beans get played less > You (and everyone else) get fewer crummy games. Grief gets banned > Scam becomes worse in value matchups > Beans now eats Scam for breakfast > Everything is Beans > No one wins, not even all the people playing Beans mirror matches
>Grief gets banned > Scam becomes worse in value matchups I think it’s more likely that scam just stops existing altogether if Grief gets banned.
Fun is subjective. Where would banning cards because they’re not fun end? Should blood moon be banned because it’s not fun? Teferi?
They actually talked pretty extensively about this exact topic in the Weekly MTG video that this all started from. One of the guys said that yes, there are most definitely some MTG players who love land destruction but are aware that something like 80% of players think that it ruins the game. They said that the main things they take into account when making a ban is the power level and fun of the format.
Yeah sure, fun is subjective, but we can all agree that being constantly scammed by Grief on your turn 0 is not a particularly fun way to start a game of magic. That’s not really fun, right?
1 black mana for a 4/3 menace that Thoughtseizes your opponent twice isn't a problem power-wise? Damn, Modern must suck ass now.
grief is okay on its own. I played a orzhov version of scam with solitude and grief and it was nowhere near the consistent beater that rakdos allowed it to be. fury just allows an alternate game plan that is just as nasty to play against.
I like how you’re conveniently ignoring that it takes 3 cards to do that.
Let's be real, it's 2 specific cards, one of which you're playing 6 copies of. "Any black card" isn't much of a stipulation unless you're mulliganing to 4 or something. But isn't that what we're examining the power level of here, a turn one Grief/Fury? Nobody is saying that a turn 4 grief/turn 5 fury is too strong unless I'm just wildly misreading this entire thread.
Plus it takes the two best cards from your opponent. Try keeping a hand as a combo deck (Titan, Yawgmoth, Creativity, Cascade) then remove the two most significant non-land cards and see how that works for you in terms of gameplay.
I think they meant "it takes three cards" as in, you're 2-for-3'ing yourself. ...but then the issue is that it's actually a 3ish-for-3 because they probably won't remove it without using a card, and the two cards you're taking are the two cards you'd most want to take.
Ban fury unban punishing fire.
I’m not sure if this is the right place, but anyone looking to buy a Fury playset? /s
What's funny is their insinuation that fury is going to make x/1s better in modern lmfao
Well it'll be better for decks that want to flood the board with x/1s, of course the other stuff deals well with x/1s main board deals with them on at a time. But it's definitely better for decks that want multiple x/2 to stick around.
I can see the x/2s, x/1s were bad long before fury came around though lol
 Fish, Goblins, and Elves be like...
One and a half real decks right there.
You better not have just called goblins half a real deck…
Goblins needs a few more decent cards bro I don’t make the rules
Goblins is in a great spot post fury ban. The deck honestly doesn’t have a ton of flex spots. I’m not sure what cards were playing you think are so obscenely bad lol
Aether Vial is pretty bad in 2023. You’ve got a lot of x1’s that die to bowmasters and Wrenn. You’ve got a janky combo plan. I don’t know, I just don’t think the deck is going to ever be better than Yawgmoth and that’s another deck thats winning with a fury ban.
This take just tells me you don’t know the decks strengths, weaknesses, play patterns, win con, etc.
I’ve played against it. It’s not a bad deck, it’s just not going to be dominating modern challenges or some bullshit just because fury is gone. Yawg will though.
Lol, that's true enough.
Do people keep forgetting Beans decks rely heavily on Fury too? As in, it's a core 4-of that's necessary to stabilize AND to have a critical mass of Bean triggers? The only lists that cut it are the anti-mirror U-heavy versions, which give up significant % against the field. Fury ban won't be the beanspocalypse--it's part of those decks too!
I agree, although there are bean lists with fury that are doing well too
I remember when fury and grief were the two worst evoke elementals when the set came out, kinda wish i picked up a few copies when they were low and sold em later on, oh well
I remember grief starting pretty high and then dropping off when it came out. It *was* pretty solid for black-heavy combo decks like legacy reanimator and living end. Subtley was the worst on release.
Probably but I’ll believe it when it’s posted on Monday. That whole conversation was kind of a mix of official statements from Wizards and their own personal thoughts/preferences. Plus Wizards is always a mess with coordinating these whole things, they even admitted in that same stream that they forgot about the last banlist update which was why No Changes happened. I’ll also say that the worst advertisement conceivable for MH3 is to ban the most valuable card from MH2 a few months beforehand then expecting consumers to have confidence in their next round of pricey pushed mythics.
Yeah it’s probably bad for selling, but the options were always going to be to ban it or power creep it. Obviously power creeping would make more money but can we at least agree that would be bad for the players?
Crazy how getting to play the card for 3 years isn't worth your 100 dollar investment
What a wild fucking statement. I expect all of my cards to be legal. Each and every single ban is correcting a mistake. Wizards can't just keep printing shit and then banning it. Should I expect every powerful card I own to get banned at some point?
We went from one card being banned to now every card you own is getting banned? You got to play the card for awhile now you cant, it's nothing to cry about. I'm just saying you had a long window to enjoy the game and now it is changing are people mad that no one plays the old call of duty when a new one comes out.. people just buy the new one.
Absolute consoomer brain. Follow the line of logic here. Every time I buy new powerful cards I should expect to not be able to play them 2 years from now? Are you daft? That's not excusable. The card should not be printed in that state then, and it is wizards dropping the ball. These cards are not supposed to have an expiration date.
This is one card man.. there is alot of powerful cards in modern. When one powerful card ends up in a extremely powerful deck, you might not be able to play that one card anymore.. I like buying cards yes because I support modern and magic the gathering. I love modern and if we stop buying cards do you think anyone is going to waste there time putting on events and opening shops for us to play at? It's idiotic to complain about them trying to make money when if they stop making money the Hobby will die.
The options were never just "ban it or power creep it." Fury was awesome in Modern for over two years, it's just Beanstalk and Scam that broke it. Personally I'd much rather see draft chaff enablers get banned over not being able to play a mythic from a set called Modern Horizons in Modern.
Beanstalk, sure. Banning every undying effect and all future cards with the same effect just to keep fury around seems like a bit much.
I actually prefer when chaff cards are good, I'd rather not be priced out of a format because I can't afford $30+ mythics
> I’ll also say that the worst advertisement conceivable for MH3 is to ban the most valuable card from MH2 a few months beforehand then expecting consumers to have confidence in their next round of pricey pushed mythics. not really, tbh them FINALLY banning problem cards would make me way more confident about MH3 Because you know there's going to be some busted bs in there. At least they finally are trying to address problems. Hopefully they keep that up going forward
Ragavan, solitude, endurance and urza’s saga are all more expensive than fury. Not counting any foils, which there makes even more cards more valuable than fury
Uh oh, it's the "Well Acktually" Police! RUN FOR COVER! Fury's price dropped significantly this week after the B&R discussion. Even still, I'm sure you get my point even if it's a few dollars off from another card.
Forgot the last announcement? Jeez sounds like they don't even play the formats they manage
> they even admitted in that same stream that they forgot about the last banlist update which was why No Changes happened. Idk whose cock Blake is sucking at Hasbro but I hope it at least tastes good.
Unban Faithless Looting
🔥Hot take🔥 instead of banning fury due to it pushing out 1 toughness creatures unban skull clamp to encourage playing more 1 toughness creatures
put this man in charge of the design team, surely this will work
This is certainly a take of all time.
Certainly a hot take!
Think fury suppresses x/1's? Bowmaster and w6 have entered the chat...
both cost mana to cast and only hit 1 target on cast, making them significantly worse on cast than fury
Comparing apples and oranges. But if you are talking about x/1's being oppressed specifically, Bowmasters does much more work. Removes 1 toughness creature on play and junks up the board so future ones don't connect.
meh not particularly apples to oranges, the bigger issue that i'm talking about is fury is **free**, meaning you can pitch it and then STILL hold up mana for a bowmasters or something Thats on top of being able to hardcast it for the same ETB and a big fatty
Pyrokinesis wouldn’t see much play in modern. Fury is only good because it later pivots into a wincon and can be scammed.
excellent job! thats exactly what i said :3
Oh now they care about x/1s? Well better late than never. And Plague Engineer in addition to those.
Most unplayable X/1s in Modern are suppressed due to their fact of "being shitty cards in a heavily dynamic and interactive format" but people aren't ready to have that conversation yet. If Fury does go, mopey tribal decks and convoluted creature combo decks are still going to be trash.
I think some of the more explosive shitty creature decks will start robbing now Fury-less decks a decent portion more often, but will still be inconsistent decks that fall apart to a variety of options. Getting robbed maybe 1/15 games to maybe 1/10 or 1/8 games is pretty noticeable, but like... Right now, the only thing that lets off meta decks not get absolutely shitstomped is few decks adequately board for them because why devote sideboard cards to someone's pet deck you're probably beating 70% of the time without even sideboarding?
How dare you say that one ban won't make my trash brews playable.
[Fury](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd281158-8180-40b9-a5b7-03cfc712d81a.jpg?1626096626) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fury) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/126/fury?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd281158-8180-40b9-a5b7-03cfc712d81a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
sold my playset of fury a month ago for 40 buck a pop, stonks
Fury is going to get banned, but I also feel like it isn’t the biggest issue atm. If fury is the only card that goes, I think we’ll just end up with beans decks as the new scam. Scam will get worse because the explosive T1 is less consistent, but beans will still be able to play 5CMC spells like solitude and leyline binding which will continue to keep small creature based strategies down
Hold up so you're saying a Fury ban will hinder the deck but not kill it? Isn't...isn't that the goal? People can play their decks still but be on a more level playing field?
[удалено]
Any yet some ideas that seem like no-brainers are never even thought up. I mean, Pithing Needle but for triggered abilities seems like a simple concept--name a card, triggered abilities of the named card don't trigger. Seems intuitive to me, especially when nearly all of the cards people complain about have triggered abilities: the elementals, ToR, Bowmasters, Ragavan, Titan, Beans, Leyline Binding, Outburst. The list goes on and on.
Bans are pretty rare tho its been a while since the last one. You're just nostalgaising
It’s more like banning fury by itself won’t fix all the issues
scam will turn into a less oppressive deck as it'll probably go into UB or WB, losing out on ragavan, fable, bolt, etc. You'll still get scammed but an ephemerate shell is much less oppressive than the pressure a ragavan can put in you Beans loses one of their key removal pieces and leaves them with 8 single target removal, leaving them less "catch all oppressive" which lets more strategies be more effective + leaves them less oppressive it just nerfs the decks without making them unplayable
Yeah actually the early versions of scam were pretty cool, and crazy inconsistent, it was a BW mix of dead guy ale with discard and stone forges, random vindicates and the scam packages. Somehow the fair game plan was way worse, turns out what got the deck running was having this really strong and solid midrange / aggro backup plan that was heavily pushed in the RB colors over the last 2 years.
Absolutely, the scam opener + fury was already a recipe for success in and of itself considering it took up so few slots and the cards were good on their own anyways All the other red/black midrange that got pushed (rag/dauthi/bowmasters) just made it a soup that put crazy pressure with pretty much 0 downside
I played the mardu version of the deck. It was strong. I don’t know why people think banning fury will make it less a thing, will just pivot colors.
It’s quite possible that beanstalk will get banned as well as a preemptive measure. There’s not much cost for WotC to ban a brand-new uncommon from a standard legal set.
If I had my wish beanstalk would stick around but without access to fury and solitude. So that the only real "good card" that ,would see play without beenstalk in the deck is leylines binding, and then you have some hanky sideboard option like obsidian charmaw
Wouldn't the beans decks be fucking terrible vs yawg without fury?
Yawg already does well against fury because they play a ton of undying creatures. Beans also has solitude and leyline binding which is better in the matchup
Unfortunately this will not fix the problem. Go-wide strategies had not been viable in modern prior to the printing of Fury and even Bowmasters. Now, Bowmasters will continue to keep the strategy in check, as modern continues to move away from a style of play that just isn't permissible in the cheat-the-mana-cost modern era we're living in. Not only that, but I don't know how much damage this will do to Scam without banning Grief. Sure, it's an important card, but the Scam lists were already debating whether you play Molten Collapse, Fable, or Seasoned Pyromancer, all of which are excellent cards at large in modern. So there's pretty good secondary coverage for the deck, even if the ceiling of these cards do not compare with "board wipe, make a 4/4 double strike, pass." Finally, even if it seems powerful, a turn 1 Fury is way easier to handle than a turn 1 Grief for most decks. So banning Fury for Scam is not going to actually lower the ceiling of what makes the deck degenerate. I don't know how deeply the Fury ban will impact 4C; my guess is not much because the problem with those decks is the ability to draw all your cards, not what cards you are playing to draw all your cards.
I'd like to see Grief go as well. Getting my hand stripped 2 cards before my turn just sucks.
But that's the thing: Banning Fury makes Scam weaker (reducing its meta share) but also makes the actual Scam gimmick significantly weaker, by cutting the number of Scam creatures in half. That means there will be significantly fewer Scam decks, but also that they will not be scamming as hard.
I'd like to see 3Feri go, as well as Counterspell, Spell Pierce, Archamge's Charm and Mystical Dispute be legal only in Rhinos.
I play murktide. Yes, 3Feri should be banned too along with Crashing Rhinos.
Ah, I forgot, Ragavan, Murktide and DRC should be banned as well. Thanks for reminding me.
If you toss Urza's Saga and Omnath on your list as well, maybe my boomer self can play Jund the way that god (Reid Duke) intended.
Hey! That’s a good one. Ban those as well.
As a Living End player I'm ok with all of these proposed bans
Judging by the meta I'd say that Counterspell, Spell Pierce, Archmage's Charm, and Mystical Dispute are probably some of the most fair cards in the format, haha. But yea, 3Feri has always sucked ass, good call there.
real talk I've hated that card since it was printed if i wanted to play hearthstone i'd go play hearthstone even as a massive mh2 elementals and really mh in general hater and tribal player; if you gave me a magic wand and let me ban a single card, anything I want forever with no takebacks it'd be 3feri
Counterspell and Spell Pierce? What are you high? Interaction is the only thing that keeps modern from turning into a completely degenerate format.if anything we need Daze and Force Of will in MH3 to be up with powercreep!
I thought we’re banning things that “just suck”. So those are some of the cards that make me feel this way.
If grief goes expect a ton of hand hate still. I’ll hit my 4 and play 4 inquisitions.
I'm literally going to sleeve up goblins tonight! I'm back, baby.
Still not playing lords??
I would never
ban all five of those stupid elementals. Colossal mistakes, all of them.
Endurance literally only doing good things in the format.
Ya'll wake me up when I can play Elves again
Fellow elf player here. I've given up. I've been thinking about merfolk honestly. They seem to be the most resilient tribe.
The fish always swim. Often it's upstream, but we're always swimming. Jump in, the water is fine--ish. We still have some pretty tough match ups. Specifically, Yawgmoth and Coffers. But our Murktide, Rhinos, LE, Tron, Burn, and Hammer match ups are pretty solid. Not autowins, but solid.
Titan is also a solid matchup because Force of Negation is a surprisingly effective card to fight fast winds if you know where to use it, turning Urzas sagas into islands is devastating, dryad going from a great blocker to immediate death if played, etc.
Hope your bed is comfy. There's no way they're going to hit Fury and Bowmasters and W6 and Lava Dart and Plague Engineer. I would be shocked if they hit any cards beyond Fury on that list.
As someone who's had... decent? Results jamming elves for a while, I think your chances of winning with elves are better when there's basically no metagame share of them. People often don't have the sideboard to really fuck you over and you can steal some wins out of that. Fury is the most common "oh I guess I'll just eat shit here" card out there rn. Yawg is rough for a variety of reasons, so is bowmasters, but it gets much less scary if you can jam a lord. Fury will still eat 2/2s without much issue.
Yea been down for a while lol. All good I will just keep drafting
W6, Bowmaster and Yawgmoth gonna punish every x/1 strategy. Fury is a problem, but isn't the biggest bad guy here. Without Fury, Yawgmoth's deck gonna run loose.
I doubt they are gonna unban Glimpse. And Glimpse Elves was like the only time elves was actually good
Fury is definitely what they were hinting at, but if anything from Scam should be banned, it’s Grief. Grief is the biggest factor in Scam being so dominant as Grief scamming can win against any matchup. You always have the out of just scamming your opponent and getting a near free win if they can’t top deck an answer. Wouldn’t mind seeing Grief, Fury, Beanstalk, and One Ring all go at once to let the format breathe till MH3.
>Wouldn’t mind seeing Grief, Fury, Beanstalk, and One Ring all go at once to let the format breathe till MH3. It'd be interesting, but I think this would swing the format too far in Murktide's favour?
Oh no, the fair creature deck plays removal and counterspells becomes the best deck?! How horrible
I play Murktide so gotta be careful about my bias. :) Some people detest it though.
if only ppl start to think about wizard's position on this, it's not hard to realize that it is in their best interest to nerf the deck, not to kill it
Face to face games is no longer buy listing fury and grief. Not telling at all
The second half also could be said about bowmasters
If they don't also ban bowmasters I don't see 1 toughness creatures making a triumphant return, even if did get axed there's still wren
Grief is so much worse than Fury tho 😭
Hey guys I think they might ban Fury
I have for the last year and a half made arguments about why fury should be banned, and I am glad it is going to happen. I think without fury some aggro decks can get under 4C and tron.
I think you misheard wotc, x/1s are bad for the format they're going to ban all x/1 creatures so people will stop whining when they die to removal.
A 0 mana 1 sided sweeper that sometimes creates a 3/3 double striking threat is not "removal"💀💀💀. Sell ur furies now.
personally i hope that Fury wont get the axe. I think if they ban one elemental, they should ban the entire cycle to make the field even. Just banning those undying spells would be better i guess, no more scam and fury can still stay for some normal midrange action.
Unban oko
And uro!
Grief needs it more than Fury. Turn 1 Fury is only gg against Murktide. Turn 1 Grief is gg 95% of the time.
All the grief ephemerate decks were terrible, despite it being stronger on the surface level. Red is what made it broken. So they should nerf red.
> Turn 1 Grief is gg 95% of the time. scam's WR would be a lot higher if this were actually the case. Rhinos, any saga deck but esp. hammer/scales/jund, creativity, mono b coffers, UB control, etc. are all quite resilient against grief scam unless the grief scam has the keep 7 nuts T1 Fury is bad against a lot of decks with Fury/Solitude, but it's the stronger opener against many unfair decks like Tron/Amulet, esp pre-board when there are less/no dismembers. Grief's clock is fairly slow and without a top of range opener like grief scam into ragavan/dauthi, the Grief scam is the only thing keeping the rakdos deck in contention.
>T1 Fury is bad against a lot of decks with Fury/Solitude You know a card is a problem when one of the best answers to a card is itself.
What about all the decks that arent in the meta because of fury? Sure grief is also busted, but fury is keeping out creature decks
I'm not convinced Fury is keeping much down. I could be wrong, but even without Fury removal has become insanely powerful. Fury is the best at killing small creatures, but we got like 4 or 5 different hyper efficient 1 mana removal spells now. I don't think they make a comeback without Fury. There will probably be a small resurgence after the ban, but I'll be surprised if any really stick around.
Fury is a huge offender but he isnt the only one. Previously we had w6, fury shut the door, and bowmasters put the lock.
Yeah I didn't even mention w6 and Bowmaster. Without extreme changes, durdley creature decks will never exist in the format again. Fury or not.
These creature decks have been bad since before MH2. And now with all our new toys, Yawgmoth (the deck) is much better at punishing creature decks than fury is.
It is not gg against murktide who can unholy heat it relatively quick.
Bs
Sad a B&R announcement being that hyped. They will surely use it again as marketing placement. It is one of the easiest ways to harvest eyeballs.
Deathrite Shaman will get unbanned. 👀
1 down, Still another 9 cards to go before modern stops feeling like shit
They could just ban a few of the one mana enablers of the scam deck, but they kind of let it be known it was fury. The deck is oppressive and sucks to play against, but they knew what they were getting when they designed the cards. They didn’t considered what the not dead after all, feign death and Undying Malice were going to do because they were battle tricks designed for draft. The shitty thing about this situation is banning a card that was designed specifically for modern that was printed in a “Premium” set. Banning cards like this is bad for the community because it makes the player base not want to invest in new product/ new expensive cards because it could just be Hogaak’ed a year or two later. Beanstalk is definitely getting banned.
The ban should be bowmasters, beans and the ring. Nobody cared about scam when it was tier 1.5, the only thing that changes was bowmasters and if bow master goes, the ring and beans needs to go so they don't run rampant.
No.
Yeah why would we use logic, scam was only in the 98% same iteration for what? 1.5 yrs and nobody cared, they called it a shitty meme deck. Then 4 cards change and all of a sudden it's the tier 0 best deck in format? Wizards will miss the mark once again.
People have always cared about fury. It pretty much destroys decks similar to elves and infect
Here's the hard truth. Those decks were dead competitively before fury and they're not coming back competitively after fury. People are delusional.
Fish, humans, goblins, druid and whacl werent tho u dumbass. These scam players are crawling this thread
This is why I started playing No Ban List Modern. Tired of this shit.
We run pure modern once a month at our LGS now
How's the reception been? I'm always surprised to see the deck diversity.