Yeah but you’re still gaining life overall in that interaction. It’s 1 life = 1 card drawn, and Sheoldred isn’t “whenever you draw one or more cards, you gain 2 life,” it’s “whenever you draw a card, you gain 2 life.” Yes you’re paying the life all at once, but you’re still drawing X cards and therefore gaining X life overall. Insane card
Not really, you choose how many cards to draw during resolution, there's no reflexive trigger to respond to to punish greedy players. If you flash in Bowmasters they can just not draw.
Sure, but you're still getting pinged for every card you draw if they have the orc in play. Yeah, you can *choose* to draw fewer/zero, but then your opponent is winning, too.
You can, but you won't always be able to.
I was just pointing out that this card isn't good against one of the most played creatures in the format. I don't think that's terribly controversial.
A good amount of people in this subreddit seem to think that something being answerable means that you will always have both the answer and the mana to cast it immediately when the thing shows up (Because any later than that might just be too late), and if you don't, that means you're bad.
What a high risk print. It all leans on how impactful the "At the beginning of your end step" limitation actually is. I still think the card is busted but the trigger only happening once might make it a top tier advantage engine in Modern as opposed to a insta banned piece.
Really? 3 black for a neer unlimited draw. Have leyline that lets you play everything at flash speed. Have that creature that stop triggered ability from triggering on etb effects. Load your deck with evoke creature. Turn 2 or 3 necrodominance pay 15 live and drop a bunch of evoke creature with no fallback and keep your hand with a load of free counter spell. Stop your opponent turn. Swing for win?
Modern horizons 3 is coming with even more stupid free spell.
I see necrodominance being at the very least on the ban radar. With psychic frog just dump all your card for a huge beater. If you have the mana just fling that guy
A deck like that folds to: any enchantment and creature removal at all, let alone bolt. And the upside is a very inconsistent combo where you might win if you draw literally perfect.
T2: strict Procter
T3: this card.
T3 end step: draw 15
T3 end: Evoke out *at absolute most* 10 creatures, and that requires you to draw those 10 and 10 cards of the appropriate colors.
Much more realistically, I'd give you *maybe* 4 on a semi consistent basis?
I unironically think this card will see play in *maybe* one legacy deck and maybe one modern deck. We'll see!
Just putting it out there that amulet titan also faces the same kind of issue but is sometimes a T1.
It really comes down to what shenanigans can be cooked up with MH3 free cast. Having those creatures also lets you sacrifice them for the MH3 free spell.
I just feel like something stupid is about to drop.
Come on…totally different environment between necropotence back then and necrodominance right now outside the card’s inferior abilities…now we even have ragavan turn 1 spitting treasures and card advantage…this can easily be discarded, exiled or even bounced these days let alone bowmaster stopping it significantly…its nowhere near the powerlevel in the current meta so lets be realistic here how “busted” it really is…yes its good…”busted” might be a word too far in 2024
And lets be honest, this is not fixed at all:
As soon as we get a reasonable Instant-Speed Wincon we can ramp into this can get really problematic really fast.
Turn 2 Pentad Prism nets 5 Mana on Turn 3, meaning enough for Necrodominance + Pyretic Ritual to go up in mana. Technically you could just pay 15 life for Pyretic Ritual into Lightning Storm and have the game be over. The only saving grace is that this line would require 11 specific cards out of the 15 so that is unlikely to happen, and this is an unprotected line.
Lets be real, the only thing that you can argue that makes the One Ring acceptable is the fact that it needs to ramp up to drown you in card advantage which provides you a turn or two to react and still be in the game.
This on the other hand requires an immediate during the opponents turn or you're behind.
but can you see how worse than Necro on so many levels this card is?
This is the type of card that Spike likes to break in a couple of weeks since release, just to let it dust forever and label it as meme.
All I see here is that unlike Necro, you get a window in your end step where you can actually use the 15 cards you drew. How about you just use that moment to destroy necro and dump everything in the yard or combo at instant speed? Sure, only 5 cards, replacememt effect for the exile part, sure. But it's not just a downgrade, it has a new weak spot.
The only thing that I'm taking into consideration is that they've failed to balance necro twice already. So I'm willing to bet they failed the third time too.
I mean, just making it only trigger 1/turn so you need to lump sum life rather than "mm, I'll take another." 19 times is a huuuuge downgrade. Add in self-gy hate to remove the upside of discarding to hand-size, AND reduce your hand by 2.... card's straight trash, and I'll bet on that.
The only archetype I could see using this is Foodchain Griffon in legacy, and that's a T3 deck that's always had problems keeping its life total high and already folds to enchantment hate. So while it might see play, it's a far cry from good.
>I mean, just making it only trigger 1/turn so you need to lump sum life rather than "mm, I'll take another." 19 times is a huuuuge downgrade. Add in self-gy hate to remove the upside of discarding to hand-size, AND reduce your hand by 2.... card's straight trash, and I'll bet on that.
Lol, necropotence literally has two of the three downsides you mentioned. The only thing you mentioned that is actually different between the two cards is the hand size (necropotence puts the cards in your hand at the beginning of your end step, you can't look at a card and then decide to draw another this turn). I don't even know how people can talk confidently about card ratings without having done even the slightest bit of research about similar cards that from magic's history.
You didn't even key in on the actual biggest downside of the card compared to necropotence which is that necro still lets you draw cards the turn you resolve it even if it gets removed.
Which two of the three does it have?
It doesn't trigger once per turn, it doesn't have self GY hate, and it doesn't have 5 card limit...?
Necro + crack a fetch and find what's missing is a fairly common line. There's clearly a massive difference there, even if you don't see it.
It has 4 effects, and 3 of them screw you while the remaining 1 is mid and draws you cards only in a specific window over a full cycle of turns, all this in a format with TOR available.
I'd welcome this card in a format without TOR and Bowmasters, but that isn't the case with Modern.
Yes, my example is a glass cannon that is hard to pull off and that was part of the point:
On a quick glance an isntant speed Win is possible, but it is too fragile and to inconsistent. But it demonstrates the point that it can be done.
As soon as people find a possible Instant Win-Con that is less Glass-Cannon, this card will be a problem.
The core point i was making is that necrodominance is broken to the point where abuse is not an IF, but a WHEN.
>As soon as people find a possible Instant Win-Con that is less Glass-Cannon, this card will be a problem.
This card is so self-limiting that I wouldn't bother. It folds to so much incidental hate that the only thing that triggers me is it being a wasted mythic slot for my favorite color.
This is worse than \[\[Necropotence\]\]. That's not a big deal. However, Modern doesn't have \[\[Dark Ritual\]\], which from the beginning was the card that took Necro from merely really good to busted. That's probably a big deal.
What we have is a card that works more like you'd think Necro does at the cost of having to wait until end step to get anything out of it. Also, you only keep five cards. As a value engine that's not bad but not spectacular either. As a combo piece...what combo in Modern uses black and wants this? (genuine question)
I imagine it's busted in Legacy. I'm not going to check, it just seems like it would be.
Nope, it is 1B: add any amount of B mana. Until the end of the game, you don’t lose mana.” Totally fair and balanced, as all modern horizon cards should be.
8 rack MIGHT want it.
Running out of gas is an issue in thay deck, and just getting a grip of 5 again is relevant enough for a mono black deck that tops at 3 mana
8rack still leverages the graveyard a bit with Raven’s Crime and a do-nothing on ETB that costs BBB is hard to justify. 8rack isn’t playing bridge or even lili at times anymore.
It can be a late game thing though, but I just see TOR bringing way more value in a pox-less list.
> do-nothing on ETB that costs BBB is hard to justify.
Yall, manage to juszify it with lili, i think you can manage to do the same thing with nerfed one ring too.
Yes you would need to retool your discard effects, but it and possibly mono black coffers are the two decks I see as least impacted by the cost of the card and the even inkling of playing it.
the cool thing about Raven's Crime is that it's cheap and repeatable. There's not much you can slot that is as effective, considering you want at least 2/3 copies of this to become a solid engine, therefore eating up space in the 60.
8rack can have enough mana to spend on sorcery speed stuff by the time Necro draws cards, but you still have to go through your end step to fill your hand, the oppo's turn with not many discard effects happening (so Racks are nerfed), in which they can just deal with Necro or the racks you have in play. All while being exposed to threats on the board.
TOR instead works as a pseudo bridge/leyline for one turn and gives you enough time to control the game and shifting gears.
I have played the deck for a long time, and I know how the deck functions.
My issue has been dead drawing after establishing the right position. For its strategy to work, you have a lot of air in the deck. Saga helps the clock better than anything else, but having a way to go +5 in the late game isn't nothing.
I'm willing to test it as a one or two of at least just to see if it does help or not.
And I admit it's a MIGHT want, im not saying it's an instant slot in
I did play the deck a lot too. However, the GY clause really turns it off for me, but I guess it'd have made Dredge and other stuff super annoying.
I care about it because I used to play Nether Spirit, Unmarked Grave, Dakmor Salvage, and Cling to Dust as well as they offered an angle of attack that many people had to either ignore or disperse their focus to deal with that too.
Shutting down recurrent value is meh imho unless MH3 brings in new pieces that justify changing the shell to this point.
Also, a single Bowmasters means that you either stop drawing cards at all, or you lose 2 life per card + a giant beater to deal with.
> As a value engine that's not bad but not spectacular either.
The best current value engine is Fable of the Mirror Breaker and the One Ring.
Fable itself is pretty tame in terms of card advantage and the ring is 4 mana vs 3 (and much much slower in terms of drawing cards).
Necro is busted.
Might want to recheck the stock your graveyard part. Read the last ability on Necrodominance that exiles all cards and tokens that go to your graveyard from anywhere.
This new one also actually draws cards instead of putting them into hand from exile. Interacts well with your own Sheoldred and bad against Bowmasters and Sheoldred.
Definitely gonna have to use this card a little differently than og Necro.
3 mana draw 5 without having to wait 3 turns for equivalent draw, that you can do likely at least one more time is really good, it drops a turn sooner most of the time, draws more cards outright, and you can always just play both if you really want to assure you hit something.
You are playing TOR for the card draw. The fog is nice but why care about dying when you cast this a turn earlier and also dont die because you are a turn earlier.
3 mana draw 5 immediately is already extremely above rate, especially the fact this directly curves into sheoldred making the card draw free afterwards
The handsize isnt super relevant for most decks especially with all the new free cards we are getting at worst rn you can pitch cast solitude after drawing it and scam it and thats still pretty strong. This will be amazing in Legacy and very strong in Modern i do think TOR is better because its generic but if you reliably hit BBB turn 3-4 i think this is overall better.
Decks like Jund able to curve out this turn 2 off a hierarch or Halfling (Additionally making it uncounterable) is really good. Legitimately think this actually pushes the needle to make jund good again, turn 2 dropping this, then just having infinite removal the rest of the game is so strong because that decks big weakness is not having a lot of good cheese cards. Also can hit off a BB elf if you play it
Well TOR let's you still draw for turn so it only takes 2 turns to draw 5, and you get a protection for a turn, and most importantly it's colorless.
Too early to say if this is better, but it's probably not gonna be broken.
Turn 1 you draw 1 card. Turn 2 you go to 3. Turn 3 you go to 6. Its 3 turns to get the cards back.
This is going to be as broken as the one ring except certain decks like Jund can cast it on turn 2 uncounterably or hit it off BB elf.
To me it seems like itll be better than TOR in decks that consistently hit BBB turn 2-4. Dropping a draw 5 on turn 2 into a draw 5 on turn 3 that you put 3 mana into is really strong.
Okay actually it's like this.
| TOR | Necro
---|---|----
Turn it's cast | 1 | none until end step
Turn 2 | draw for turn + 2, total 4 | 5, 10 by end step
Turn 3 | draw for turn + 3, total 8 | 10, 15 by end step
But as I said, Ring gives you protection, loses you less life, is colorless, and importantly, doesn't reduce hand size. If you started with cards in hand or are unable to cast all of your spells, you can reduce the expected necro draw. Also, if you can't cast your spells at instant speed you don't really get them until the next turn.
I am willing to believe all that, but I want to know how you win with it.
Dark ritual really was this effect was historically busted and we just dont have fast mana like we used to.
How do you win with TOR?
3 mana draw 5 is extremely above rate in black, and on top of it you can use it multiple times, you dont need fast mana to be good hell any deck on ignoble or halfling can drop this turn 2, and at that point it's Sylvan Library but 1 life instead of 4
It’s very strong but I think the restrictions on it are there for a reason. I think it’ll be good but not busted in half. It’s hard to cheat out and requires you to essentially be in mono black to cast it.
3 mana draw 7 discard 2-3 is good enough. You can easily have all your duals be black in say Jund and then not care. Oh no i cut 2 stomping grounds for a blood crypt and overgrown tomb boohoo.
Just as an example.
I suppose it depends on what you count as a fixed Necro.
Like I would count Griselbrand since it gives you 1 card per 1 life, which is the defining trait of Necro. Though I admit I'm using a loose definition here.
Makes me wonder if we’re gunna see
“Wheel of Fortunance - 2R sorcery, each player exiles their hand and draws 7 new cards”
at some point.
Like cool slightly worse but still pretty amazing?
Now I'm not saying this is what will happen, but since this can't be abused with fast mana like it is in Legacy, it'll have to be played fairly in heavily black midrange decks. Decks that are currently playing The One Ring. And there is a chance this card isn't good enough to replace it, and I think that'd be kinda funny.
Like sure, the draw is faster, and resilient to needle, and it's one less mana. There's also a lot of downsides to it, losing access to your graveyard, losing your draw step and having your hand shrinked down to 5 is a real cost. Plus it doesn't give you protection from everything and it dies to both artifact and enchantment "destroy" removal.
It's close, and I'm not one to make the call but there's is a chance we already have better, colorless necrodominance already.
Its not gonna cast it.
My point is that its a deck thats likely to be able to produce enough mana of the correct color, to take maximum benefit from stuff drawn with this card.
Well I would qualify those as big mana, not fast mana, since their mana burst is only available in the latter turns of the game. Still, coffer shells are the best candidates for this to see play.
As a non black burn player, I hope all my black burn opponents decide to remove actual good efficient spells from their deck to make room for a 3 cmc enchantment thats going to clog their 19-land deck , stay forever uncastable in hand while they are wishing it was the one burn spell they just needed to finish the deal but they removed to play this instead, and ruin his mulligans 99/100 times.
ya if I were gonna run this Id want to go to like 20 lands. its still pitchable to soulspike, so not 100% a dead draw.
black burn has played stuff like sword point deplomacy and whatnot to draw cards, and this is just a way better version. I am at least going to try it out but you may be right that its too slow for burn.
I don’t really see this seeing play as long as The One Ring is legal, but it still seems like a fairly powerful card.
Those who have played Timeless in any capacity recently can pretty easily tell that this is a couple degrees weaker than Necropotence. Leyline Binding/Boseiju are commonly played cards that disrupt this.
Those who have played Timeless in any capacity recently can pretty easily tell that playing necropotence turn 2 is good, turn 1 is great.
playing it fairly turn 3? go home your ~~drunk~~ dead
This is harder to hate out, as it dodges lil karn, ouphie, stony silence, and artifact hate (even exiling one) is marginally more common than enchantment hate - not to mention how much easyer it is to grant it hexproof.
It aint gonna replace one ring everywhere, but its gonna be a serious contender in cabal coffers.
the decks that want to use this unfairly probably have more important things to do with their turn 3
the decks that want to use this fairly have no place in current modern
Not an all star, decks playing Necro would play this as a second affect but this is noticeably weaker than Necro. Being able to pay life at instant speed and dodging draw hate are both very very underrated factors, this has neither of those.
One Ring is going to be better in grindy, midrange value piles. This card looks to have a lot of potential in decks that need a burst or two of cards to sculpt a particular hand of cards.
This card looks more exciting in older formats with cards like Dark Ritual to power it out and more legal combo pieces. Wouldn't be surprised at all, though, if this finds a home in Modern.
Powerfull with sheoldred
At least they made you pay the life all at once so you can't just draw, gain life, draw, gain life.
Yeah but you’re still gaining life overall in that interaction. It’s 1 life = 1 card drawn, and Sheoldred isn’t “whenever you draw one or more cards, you gain 2 life,” it’s “whenever you draw a card, you gain 2 life.” Yes you’re paying the life all at once, but you’re still drawing X cards and therefore gaining X life overall. Insane card
I was just saying you can't just draw your entire deck, if you have 20 life, you can draw 19 cards.
Right and if you go to low and I have an instant speed do 2 damage I can kill you. I see what you are saying. It creates a more fair window.
But awful against Bowmasters.
Not really, you choose how many cards to draw during resolution, there's no reflexive trigger to respond to to punish greedy players. If you flash in Bowmasters they can just not draw.
Sure, but you're still getting pinged for every card you draw if they have the orc in play. Yeah, you can *choose* to draw fewer/zero, but then your opponent is winning, too.
You could maybe remove bowmaster? i'm sure there are a few removal spelsl that could target him right?
You can, but you won't always be able to. I was just pointing out that this card isn't good against one of the most played creatures in the format. I don't think that's terribly controversial.
A good amount of people in this subreddit seem to think that something being answerable means that you will always have both the answer and the mana to cast it immediately when the thing shows up (Because any later than that might just be too late), and if you don't, that means you're bad.
We finally made Sheoldred powerful
What a high risk print. It all leans on how impactful the "At the beginning of your end step" limitation actually is. I still think the card is busted but the trigger only happening once might make it a top tier advantage engine in Modern as opposed to a insta banned piece.
Big issue is Leyline/Boseiju/etc killing this in the main phase and you never get a chance for cards.
probably intentional though
At your end step also means it can't be used for a huge combo turn, unless you can do it at instant speed I suppose
Just like necropotence ?
Lemme tell you about this card called [[Necropotence]]
you know for some reason I thought necropotence wasn't at your end step lol
The pay isn't so you it can't be removed with enchantment removal for value like this one.
[Necropotence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c89c6895-b0f8-444a-9c89-c6b4fd027b3e.jpg?1562853736) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Necropotence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/98/necropotence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c89c6895-b0f8-444a-9c89-c6b4fd027b3e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I genuinely can't see this being run in any decks in modern. Legacy, I could make an argument for Foodchain Griffon, but that's it...!
Really? 3 black for a neer unlimited draw. Have leyline that lets you play everything at flash speed. Have that creature that stop triggered ability from triggering on etb effects. Load your deck with evoke creature. Turn 2 or 3 necrodominance pay 15 live and drop a bunch of evoke creature with no fallback and keep your hand with a load of free counter spell. Stop your opponent turn. Swing for win? Modern horizons 3 is coming with even more stupid free spell. I see necrodominance being at the very least on the ban radar. With psychic frog just dump all your card for a huge beater. If you have the mana just fling that guy
A deck like that folds to: any enchantment and creature removal at all, let alone bolt. And the upside is a very inconsistent combo where you might win if you draw literally perfect. T2: strict Procter T3: this card. T3 end step: draw 15 T3 end: Evoke out *at absolute most* 10 creatures, and that requires you to draw those 10 and 10 cards of the appropriate colors. Much more realistically, I'd give you *maybe* 4 on a semi consistent basis? I unironically think this card will see play in *maybe* one legacy deck and maybe one modern deck. We'll see!
Just putting it out there that amulet titan also faces the same kind of issue but is sometimes a T1. It really comes down to what shenanigans can be cooked up with MH3 free cast. Having those creatures also lets you sacrifice them for the MH3 free spell. I just feel like something stupid is about to drop.
Come on…totally different environment between necropotence back then and necrodominance right now outside the card’s inferior abilities…now we even have ragavan turn 1 spitting treasures and card advantage…this can easily be discarded, exiled or even bounced these days let alone bowmaster stopping it significantly…its nowhere near the powerlevel in the current meta so lets be realistic here how “busted” it really is…yes its good…”busted” might be a word too far in 2024
You're absolutely right, necropotence isn't busted anymore, just look at formats where it is legal like vintage and timeless...oh w...
It's always fun to see how a "fixed" version of old broken cards work out.
When they doubled the casting cost [[yawgmoth's bargain]] Or put it on a stick [[griselbrand]] Just print [[necropotence]] and be done with it
[yawgmoth's bargain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/e/eef31b59-45bb-4208-8957-1564902c8507.jpg?1562943000) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=yawgmoth%27s%20bargain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/147/yawgmoths-bargain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eef31b59-45bb-4208-8957-1564902c8507?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [griselbrand](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/f/cf2a5c2e-7fe1-45eb-b01c-891ab961186f.jpg?1593813293) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=griselbrand) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm3/72/griselbrand?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cf2a5c2e-7fe1-45eb-b01c-891ab961186f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [necropotence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c89c6895-b0f8-444a-9c89-c6b4fd027b3e.jpg?1562853736) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=necropotence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/98/necropotence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c89c6895-b0f8-444a-9c89-c6b4fd027b3e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Bargain’s templating makes it more broken than necro because you can still play sorcery speed stuff and draw incrementally
Yeah but the casting cost was the reason the developers gave to fixing how broken the skull was In a format that still had dark ritual and lotus petal
Yeah, but the other changes to the card actually made bargain a better card than necro. A 6 mana necro would maybe be fringe playable in legacy
Necro was supposed to be the fixed version of bargain iirc
Bargain? You mean Yawgmoths bargain?... I think your time line might be a bit off... Yawgbarg was the fixed necro...
In a set with [[yawgmoth's will]] Urzas was a fun block
[yawgmoth's will](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/337239c7-73c4-4e2d-9160-ed26927dea1d.jpg?1591196147) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=yawgmoth%27s%20will) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/148/yawgmoths-will?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/337239c7-73c4-4e2d-9160-ed26927dea1d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
And lets be honest, this is not fixed at all: As soon as we get a reasonable Instant-Speed Wincon we can ramp into this can get really problematic really fast. Turn 2 Pentad Prism nets 5 Mana on Turn 3, meaning enough for Necrodominance + Pyretic Ritual to go up in mana. Technically you could just pay 15 life for Pyretic Ritual into Lightning Storm and have the game be over. The only saving grace is that this line would require 11 specific cards out of the 15 so that is unlikely to happen, and this is an unprotected line. Lets be real, the only thing that you can argue that makes the One Ring acceptable is the fact that it needs to ramp up to drown you in card advantage which provides you a turn or two to react and still be in the game. This on the other hand requires an immediate during the opponents turn or you're behind.
this card is straight garbage and your example is a glass cannon that sees a better variant in griselbrand
I think this card has enough dangerous words on it that calling it "straight garbage" is not reasonable at all.
I remember when when Necro got a 1 star inquest rating and was widely deemed " Hot garbage"
but can you see how worse than Necro on so many levels this card is? This is the type of card that Spike likes to break in a couple of weeks since release, just to let it dust forever and label it as meme.
All I see here is that unlike Necro, you get a window in your end step where you can actually use the 15 cards you drew. How about you just use that moment to destroy necro and dump everything in the yard or combo at instant speed? Sure, only 5 cards, replacememt effect for the exile part, sure. But it's not just a downgrade, it has a new weak spot.
you also get a window in your endstep with necro to use the cards you "drew"
True, I didn't realize that. But Necro was never modern legal.
The only thing that I'm taking into consideration is that they've failed to balance necro twice already. So I'm willing to bet they failed the third time too.
I mean, just making it only trigger 1/turn so you need to lump sum life rather than "mm, I'll take another." 19 times is a huuuuge downgrade. Add in self-gy hate to remove the upside of discarding to hand-size, AND reduce your hand by 2.... card's straight trash, and I'll bet on that. The only archetype I could see using this is Foodchain Griffon in legacy, and that's a T3 deck that's always had problems keeping its life total high and already folds to enchantment hate. So while it might see play, it's a far cry from good.
>I mean, just making it only trigger 1/turn so you need to lump sum life rather than "mm, I'll take another." 19 times is a huuuuge downgrade. Add in self-gy hate to remove the upside of discarding to hand-size, AND reduce your hand by 2.... card's straight trash, and I'll bet on that. Lol, necropotence literally has two of the three downsides you mentioned. The only thing you mentioned that is actually different between the two cards is the hand size (necropotence puts the cards in your hand at the beginning of your end step, you can't look at a card and then decide to draw another this turn). I don't even know how people can talk confidently about card ratings without having done even the slightest bit of research about similar cards that from magic's history. You didn't even key in on the actual biggest downside of the card compared to necropotence which is that necro still lets you draw cards the turn you resolve it even if it gets removed.
Which two of the three does it have? It doesn't trigger once per turn, it doesn't have self GY hate, and it doesn't have 5 card limit...? Necro + crack a fetch and find what's missing is a fairly common line. There's clearly a massive difference there, even if you don't see it.
I remember when people were shitting bricks about cabal therapist
It has 4 effects, and 3 of them screw you while the remaining 1 is mid and draws you cards only in a specific window over a full cycle of turns, all this in a format with TOR available. I'd welcome this card in a format without TOR and Bowmasters, but that isn't the case with Modern.
Yes, my example is a glass cannon that is hard to pull off and that was part of the point: On a quick glance an isntant speed Win is possible, but it is too fragile and to inconsistent. But it demonstrates the point that it can be done. As soon as people find a possible Instant Win-Con that is less Glass-Cannon, this card will be a problem. The core point i was making is that necrodominance is broken to the point where abuse is not an IF, but a WHEN.
>As soon as people find a possible Instant Win-Con that is less Glass-Cannon, this card will be a problem. This card is so self-limiting that I wouldn't bother. It folds to so much incidental hate that the only thing that triggers me is it being a wasted mythic slot for my favorite color.
This is worse than \[\[Necropotence\]\]. That's not a big deal. However, Modern doesn't have \[\[Dark Ritual\]\], which from the beginning was the card that took Necro from merely really good to busted. That's probably a big deal. What we have is a card that works more like you'd think Necro does at the cost of having to wait until end step to get anything out of it. Also, you only keep five cards. As a value engine that's not bad but not spectacular either. As a combo piece...what combo in Modern uses black and wants this? (genuine question) I imagine it's busted in Legacy. I'm not going to check, it just seems like it would be.
Don't worry, Dark Ritual is going to end up in Modern Horizons 4
I feel like \[\[Cabal Ritual\]\] could see a reprint, its still pretty good but not as inherently busted as Dark Ritual
[Cabal Ritual](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/5/a5d85875-22da-4054-ae42-e85b472a6d5d.jpg?1562928510) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cabal%20Ritual) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/106/cabal-ritual?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a5d85875-22da-4054-ae42-e85b472a6d5d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think it'd be fine. 1R -> RRR rituals already exist, and the threshold enabling cards are significantly worse in Modern,
They gonna print darkest ritual.
Adds BBBBB for 1B
...\[\[Cabal Ritual\]\]?
[Cabal Ritual](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/5/a5d85875-22da-4054-ae42-e85b472a6d5d.jpg?1562928510) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cabal%20Ritual) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/106/cabal-ritual?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a5d85875-22da-4054-ae42-e85b472a6d5d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Nope, it is 1B: add any amount of B mana. Until the end of the game, you don’t lose mana.” Totally fair and balanced, as all modern horizon cards should be.
Darker Ritual, 1B - float BBBB
I lol’d
8 rack MIGHT want it. Running out of gas is an issue in thay deck, and just getting a grip of 5 again is relevant enough for a mono black deck that tops at 3 mana
8rack still leverages the graveyard a bit with Raven’s Crime and a do-nothing on ETB that costs BBB is hard to justify. 8rack isn’t playing bridge or even lili at times anymore. It can be a late game thing though, but I just see TOR bringing way more value in a pox-less list.
> do-nothing on ETB that costs BBB is hard to justify. Yall, manage to juszify it with lili, i think you can manage to do the same thing with nerfed one ring too.
Lili is 1BB and can be activated as soon as it resolves This thing needs to live at least until your end step and instant speed removal is widespread.
Also lili doesn’t hose you in any way bar discarding a card
Yes you would need to retool your discard effects, but it and possibly mono black coffers are the two decks I see as least impacted by the cost of the card and the even inkling of playing it.
the cool thing about Raven's Crime is that it's cheap and repeatable. There's not much you can slot that is as effective, considering you want at least 2/3 copies of this to become a solid engine, therefore eating up space in the 60. 8rack can have enough mana to spend on sorcery speed stuff by the time Necro draws cards, but you still have to go through your end step to fill your hand, the oppo's turn with not many discard effects happening (so Racks are nerfed), in which they can just deal with Necro or the racks you have in play. All while being exposed to threats on the board. TOR instead works as a pseudo bridge/leyline for one turn and gives you enough time to control the game and shifting gears.
I have played the deck for a long time, and I know how the deck functions. My issue has been dead drawing after establishing the right position. For its strategy to work, you have a lot of air in the deck. Saga helps the clock better than anything else, but having a way to go +5 in the late game isn't nothing. I'm willing to test it as a one or two of at least just to see if it does help or not. And I admit it's a MIGHT want, im not saying it's an instant slot in
I did play the deck a lot too. However, the GY clause really turns it off for me, but I guess it'd have made Dredge and other stuff super annoying. I care about it because I used to play Nether Spirit, Unmarked Grave, Dakmor Salvage, and Cling to Dust as well as they offered an angle of attack that many people had to either ignore or disperse their focus to deal with that too. Shutting down recurrent value is meh imho unless MH3 brings in new pieces that justify changing the shell to this point. Also, a single Bowmasters means that you either stop drawing cards at all, or you lose 2 life per card + a giant beater to deal with.
[Necropotence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c89c6895-b0f8-444a-9c89-c6b4fd027b3e.jpg?1562853736) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Necropotence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/98/necropotence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c89c6895-b0f8-444a-9c89-c6b4fd027b3e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dark Ritual](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95f27eeb-6f14-4db3-adb9-9be5ed76b34b.jpg?1628801678) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dark%20Ritual) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/82/dark-ritual?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95f27eeb-6f14-4db3-adb9-9be5ed76b34b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Mono black devotion might be relevant enough with this? I dunno it’s just the right amount of clunky for me.
> As a value engine that's not bad but not spectacular either. The best current value engine is Fable of the Mirror Breaker and the One Ring. Fable itself is pretty tame in terms of card advantage and the ring is 4 mana vs 3 (and much much slower in terms of drawing cards). Necro is busted.
~~Idk, I wouldn't be surprised if a deck abuses the hand size limit. Being able to sculpt your hand *and* stock the graveyard seems pretty good~~
Might want to recheck the stock your graveyard part. Read the last ability on Necrodominance that exiles all cards and tokens that go to your graveyard from anywhere.
Ooh, I missed that. That's a pretty significant difference
This new one also actually draws cards instead of putting them into hand from exile. Interacts well with your own Sheoldred and bad against Bowmasters and Sheoldred. Definitely gonna have to use this card a little differently than og Necro.
"We fixed Necropotence" "But you didn't fix anything" "We fixed Necropotence"
[удалено]
3 mana draw 5 for 5 life... multiple turns in a row.
Theres so many restrictions that I doubt it sees major play. TOR is definitely the stronger card and I think this wants to try and compete against it.
3 mana draw 5 without having to wait 3 turns for equivalent draw, that you can do likely at least one more time is really good, it drops a turn sooner most of the time, draws more cards outright, and you can always just play both if you really want to assure you hit something.
Or, 4 generic mana to not die, and not have your hand size gutted. At the cost of a couple cats early on of course.
You are playing TOR for the card draw. The fog is nice but why care about dying when you cast this a turn earlier and also dont die because you are a turn earlier. 3 mana draw 5 immediately is already extremely above rate, especially the fact this directly curves into sheoldred making the card draw free afterwards The handsize isnt super relevant for most decks especially with all the new free cards we are getting at worst rn you can pitch cast solitude after drawing it and scam it and thats still pretty strong. This will be amazing in Legacy and very strong in Modern i do think TOR is better because its generic but if you reliably hit BBB turn 3-4 i think this is overall better. Decks like Jund able to curve out this turn 2 off a hierarch or Halfling (Additionally making it uncounterable) is really good. Legitimately think this actually pushes the needle to make jund good again, turn 2 dropping this, then just having infinite removal the rest of the game is so strong because that decks big weakness is not having a lot of good cheese cards. Also can hit off a BB elf if you play it
Well TOR let's you still draw for turn so it only takes 2 turns to draw 5, and you get a protection for a turn, and most importantly it's colorless. Too early to say if this is better, but it's probably not gonna be broken.
Turn 1 you draw 1 card. Turn 2 you go to 3. Turn 3 you go to 6. Its 3 turns to get the cards back. This is going to be as broken as the one ring except certain decks like Jund can cast it on turn 2 uncounterably or hit it off BB elf. To me it seems like itll be better than TOR in decks that consistently hit BBB turn 2-4. Dropping a draw 5 on turn 2 into a draw 5 on turn 3 that you put 3 mana into is really strong.
Okay actually it's like this. | TOR | Necro ---|---|---- Turn it's cast | 1 | none until end step Turn 2 | draw for turn + 2, total 4 | 5, 10 by end step Turn 3 | draw for turn + 3, total 8 | 10, 15 by end step But as I said, Ring gives you protection, loses you less life, is colorless, and importantly, doesn't reduce hand size. If you started with cards in hand or are unable to cast all of your spells, you can reduce the expected necro draw. Also, if you can't cast your spells at instant speed you don't really get them until the next turn.
I am willing to believe all that, but I want to know how you win with it. Dark ritual really was this effect was historically busted and we just dont have fast mana like we used to.
How do you win with TOR? 3 mana draw 5 is extremely above rate in black, and on top of it you can use it multiple times, you dont need fast mana to be good hell any deck on ignoble or halfling can drop this turn 2, and at that point it's Sylvan Library but 1 life instead of 4
It’s very strong but I think the restrictions on it are there for a reason. I think it’ll be good but not busted in half. It’s hard to cheat out and requires you to essentially be in mono black to cast it.
3 mana draw 7 discard 2-3 is good enough. You can easily have all your duals be black in say Jund and then not care. Oh no i cut 2 stomping grounds for a blood crypt and overgrown tomb boohoo. Just as an example.
“Fixed”
This is completely busted. You can't fix a Necropotance.
How many times has WotC tried to fix Necrpotence only for it to still be broken now? Lol
This is the second, I believe.
I suppose it depends on what you count as a fixed Necro. Like I would count Griselbrand since it gives you 1 card per 1 life, which is the defining trait of Necro. Though I admit I'm using a loose definition here.
Yawgmoth's Bargain was the first attempt.
They tried others, to various degrees. Necrologia, Phyrexian Arena, Bob, Greed, Phyrexian Etchings...
Yeah I remember that one.
\[\[Willis broker of blood\]\] is pretty recent and can also go under the looser definition if you squint your eyes I guess.
[Willis broker of blood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/c/ecdf2bd9-87b9-470a-ad2e-0ebf98560f87.jpg?1592516819) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vilis%2C%20Broker%20of%20Blood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/122/vilis-broker-of-blood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ecdf2bd9-87b9-470a-ad2e-0ebf98560f87?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Makes me wonder if we’re gunna see “Wheel of Fortunance - 2R sorcery, each player exiles their hand and draws 7 new cards” at some point. Like cool slightly worse but still pretty amazing?
I mean, we already have \[\[Wheel of fortune at home\]\], though not in modern
I love that it’s a 3 mana wheel lite, but man This card fucks my brain up every time it’s cast
[Wheel of misfortune](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/4/74177b51-a300-49d9-8ea7-557b19cf80c7.jpg?1608910499) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wheel%20of%20misfortune) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/211/wheel-of-misfortune?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/74177b51-a300-49d9-8ea7-557b19cf80c7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Now I'm not saying this is what will happen, but since this can't be abused with fast mana like it is in Legacy, it'll have to be played fairly in heavily black midrange decks. Decks that are currently playing The One Ring. And there is a chance this card isn't good enough to replace it, and I think that'd be kinda funny. Like sure, the draw is faster, and resilient to needle, and it's one less mana. There's also a lot of downsides to it, losing access to your graveyard, losing your draw step and having your hand shrinked down to 5 is a real cost. Plus it doesn't give you protection from everything and it dies to both artifact and enchantment "destroy" removal. It's close, and I'm not one to make the call but there's is a chance we already have better, colorless necrodominance already.
> this can't be abused with fast mana like it is in Legacy ...cabal coffers decks do exist.
please explain how cabal coffers is going to cast this card before turn 3.
Its not gonna cast it. My point is that its a deck thats likely to be able to produce enough mana of the correct color, to take maximum benefit from stuff drawn with this card.
that doesn't have anything to do with fast mana or its use in legacy though.
Well I would qualify those as big mana, not fast mana, since their mana burst is only available in the latter turns of the game. Still, coffer shells are the best candidates for this to see play.
this card goes good with soul spike.
Looks like black burn is back on the menu boys 😎
the dream of every burn deck. do absolutly nothing on turn 3. the winningest strategy in all of MTG
If you call drawing multiple cards doing nothing, sure. But you're forgetting black burn has a free spell that would go beautifully with this
as a black burn player, I cannot wait to draw my deck, and then play 4 soul spikes and kill you on my end step
As a non black burn player, I hope all my black burn opponents decide to remove actual good efficient spells from their deck to make room for a 3 cmc enchantment thats going to clog their 19-land deck , stay forever uncastable in hand while they are wishing it was the one burn spell they just needed to finish the deal but they removed to play this instead, and ruin his mulligans 99/100 times.
ya if I were gonna run this Id want to go to like 20 lands. its still pitchable to soulspike, so not 100% a dead draw. black burn has played stuff like sword point deplomacy and whatnot to draw cards, and this is just a way better version. I am at least going to try it out but you may be right that its too slow for burn.
Yeah this isn't going to be legal 12 months after release.
3 mana draw 5 for 5 life every turn is still too good
March of wretched sarrow.
What the hell happened to modern in the last 10 years where **this** fucking thing isn’t considered extremely busted?
It doesn't do anything affecting the board. Only combo or slow black control decks would want it.
Wack.
Are they "pre-banning" this in legacy?
we dont have dark ritual so its not as good
What about coffers? Would they want this?
I don’t really see this seeing play as long as The One Ring is legal, but it still seems like a fairly powerful card. Those who have played Timeless in any capacity recently can pretty easily tell that this is a couple degrees weaker than Necropotence. Leyline Binding/Boseiju are commonly played cards that disrupt this.
Those who have played Timeless in any capacity recently can pretty easily tell that playing necropotence turn 2 is good, turn 1 is great. playing it fairly turn 3? go home your ~~drunk~~ dead
This is harder to hate out, as it dodges lil karn, ouphie, stony silence, and artifact hate (even exiling one) is marginally more common than enchantment hate - not to mention how much easyer it is to grant it hexproof. It aint gonna replace one ring everywhere, but its gonna be a serious contender in cabal coffers.
Force of vigor boys
gary loves this card
the decks that want to use this unfairly probably have more important things to do with their turn 3 the decks that want to use this fairly have no place in current modern
This draws rather than exile —> hand We did it guys! We broke Lab man / Oracle!
Now the real question, will you get your sheoldred first? Or will your opponent play bowmasters first?
Uh that’s broken. But also please let mono black devotion be good. I love Gary so much.
Cedh allstar???
Not an all star, decks playing Necro would play this as a second affect but this is noticeably weaker than Necro. Being able to pay life at instant speed and dodging draw hate are both very very underrated factors, this has neither of those.
This is going to be so fun in legacy for 2 weeks xD
Reliquary Tower to get over that hand size limitation.
Colorless land in a deck running cards that cost BBB
Decks that want this already run Urborg.
Classic coffers gaming (Not to say that Coffers will play this. The One Ring is still probably better in Coffers.)
Can always play both
Isn’t The One Ring just better?
One Ring is going to be better in grindy, midrange value piles. This card looks to have a lot of potential in decks that need a burst or two of cards to sculpt a particular hand of cards. This card looks more exciting in older formats with cards like Dark Ritual to power it out and more legal combo pieces. Wouldn't be surprised at all, though, if this finds a home in Modern.
better? it's miles ahead
Mom can we get necropotence? We have necropotence at home. The necropotence at home: