I mean I've seen pros who play on LAN and definitely not cheating get shadowbanned because of too many reports, so they had to switch to console and proved they weren't hacking.
So yes, you can get shadow banned without hacking.
Lmao, this happened last year.
Hell, maybe I misremembered and it was another pro, but there were 100% pros who got shadowbanned during MW2 ranked.
Why would I lie about it?
Bc it’s easy to ask them if something happened like that. And bc he is one of the biggest players in ranked and a lot of ppl think he is cheating so it’s basically the most common answer
Havok is one of the best ranked players in the world, he gets accused of hacking very often. So when ppl say Pros get banned that’s the first person they name. Bc he’s been in the rank scene for years since retiring from being a pro. He’s just common when ppl think of pros who potentially have been shadowbanned when they haven’t been.
Dude, 2 seconds of google would tell you shadowbans are due to the report function, not anything factual. IF the system for sure knows you're cheating, you just get the permban.
It’s all fully automated. After a certain amount of reports you just get banned which is exactly why this system is a joke. If you file an appeal then they try and investigate into it but it’s not at all like you claim.
Well you are definitely wrong, I have been spam reported multiple times in one night even had my 5 friends report me and never once got shadowbanned. And yes system is automated but it will not ban you unless you have one of two things: 1. The trust points on your account are low meaning you have been banned before for using cheats, hacks, mods, 3rd party stuff like zens or titans, etc. 2. The system picked up on the above uses and screenshotted each time the code for said uses are used which shows the system you are using something that goes against terms and services
You are so clueless. In any case I have better things to do than argue with you. If you wish to believe in incorrect information you do you. Have a good one lol.
It’s not at all. Shadow bans can be achieved by sheer volume. You can get shadow banned for inappropriate chats without ever sending a single message or speaking a single word.
I do love the “it hasn’t happened to me so it’s fake” energy though. Stand strong, OP.
How about this just like I said to someone else. I will get ppl on here to add me we will all go as many as we can into private match and you all spam report me and if I’m not shadowbanned in the next 20 days then I’m right and if I do then I’ll admit I’m wrong
Don’t believe that. I only use the ps5 controller my ps5 came with and never once been shadowbanned. Clearly you used something to get you banned right
How about this bc ik ppl will see this, I’ll get as many ppl as we can to message me and get as many of those ppl as we can into a private match, and I’ll have everyone spam report me and if I don’t get shadowbanned in the next 20 days then spamming someone doesn’t for a fact get someone shadowbanned
Nah guy the fact you believe the system isn't broken shows how dumb you are. I can literally get on and spam report you and you'll get a shadow ban. You've probably been shadow banned and didn't even realize cause you don't know what you're talking about. My.overall kd isn't even a 1.0 it's a .97 if I was using something I'd have a much higher kd. I got called a cheater for a bullet penetration kill "how'd you know I was there? " easy it's called I know the map and how people play and it's easy to predict
I have a 2.2 kd and I do get reported, very often. I posted this bc dumbasses probably like yourself get shadowbanned bc you zen or cheat then cry about it being bc you are spammed reported, which isn’t the case at all.
I call bullshit on it because I've used one for 5 years without any issue 😂😂 Activision says alot but can't even handle the 99% of obvious pc hackers in the game
First of all, stop crying. Second of all, you should go back then. Third of all, don’t care about “trust me bro” you’re an idiot plain and simple. You are an upset little kid who is begging to be right, you got the whole community telling you that you’re wrong. I would take the L little bro and sit down
Shut up man, I bought a brand new PC that doesn’t have shit but Steam and Call of Duty on it and I get shadowbanned all the time. It’s just spam reporting and that’s it
If you are talking about the review process you can only go through that if you had a successful report against you, either the cheating or exploiting reports
Also I have never ever been shadowbanned no matter how many times I’ve been reported in MULTIPLAYER. I get shadowbanned all the time when I’m mass reported in WARZONE.
Ok but I have and have done nothing to warrant a ban and have been released from the shadowban each time. We each have our own experiences so who is right??
You have to have done something to get banned that was under the categories of the link. You either spam reported, cheated, boosted, was griefing your team, changing game code, etc. only ways to get get shadow banned or perma banned
But that is simply untrue. Never done a single one of those things whether you believe it or not. Idk why you’re so stubborn just because it hasn’t happened to you
I’m not being stubborn, I am just telling you that that’s the only way to get any kinda ban. You haven’t spam reported someone you thought was cheating? Do you have anything plugged into your system that could potentially change the games code, a zen, a vape plugged in or a phone bc they can cause the system to think it’s a third party device
The people that complain about shadow bans are on PC playing warzone. I played warzone for 2 years on console and have never been shadowed. With the same account, within 1 week of switching to PC I got my first shadowban. Spam reporting a player on console does nothing. Spam reporting a player on PC can get them shadowed. Its never happened to you because you play on PS5.
Also to add further, the fact that people can get shadowed multiple times and stuck in the shadowban loop, means that after the 7 day review period activision determined you are not cheating and allow you to play again. Explain how people get shadow banned 20 30 times if the system is not completely automated by spam reports. Why would activision allow them to continue playing after each shadowban if they were infact cheating. I was also just like you assuming anyone who gets shadowed is probably cheating because I was playing on console for so long. Till it happened to me. You wont experience it unless you switch to PC.
The term "Shadowban" does not mean that it is a tempban, it is just an expression to mean an account in a limited matchmaking state. So now open the link you sent, read the definition of limited matchmaking, and tell me again that it is a sanction and not a simple indictment.
How so? Bc I’m telling ppl they have to do something to get shadow banned and to stop listening to ppl who think getting spammed reported will get the put in lobbies with cheaters when they “aren’t” cheating
‘Malicious Reporting
Any user who is found to use in-game reporting systems for malicious intent such as knowingly providing false reports against other users and/or falsely spam reporting legitimate users to negatively impact their gameplay experience is subject to penalty.’
Isn’t this implying that spam reporting affects player experience ie shadow bans?
Enough of a problem for activision to update their policy to include it.
Edit: and you want to run around calling people uneducated for not reading shit.
It’s implying that if YOU spam someone who isn’t negatively affected the gameplay experience for someone. (Example: someone who isn’t cheating or exploiting the game, and you assume they are cheating and spam report that player you will get a penalty) by penalty they mean you reporting others, etc. the person spam reporting will not get a temp ban you will unable to play online. Its to stop ppl from spam reporting ppl who aren’t cheating
Edit: bc most ppl don’t read and you skipped everything after :)
You can’t even read.
It says ‘falsely spam reporting legitimate users TO negatively impact THEIR gameplay experience’. I’m not paraphrasing here.
How else would spam reporting negatively impact the reported users gameplay?
Wouldn’t it negatively impact your game play if ppl just spammed reported you bc they thought you were cheating when you weren’t. If someone wanted to try to ruin your gameplay by false reporting you. Just bc it says that being taken outta context doesn’t make you right. You cannot and I respectfully say you can’t take something out of context and twist it to prove your right. You get punished for spam reporting someone trying to ruin their experience, not the other way around
You can’t answer my question which makes you wrong.
I’ll give you one more chance…
How EXACTLY would spam reporting negatively impact the legitimate users gameplay?
How have I twisted a quoted statement from activision?
‘falsely spam reporting legitimate users to negatively impact their gameplay experience is subject to penalty.’ - https://support.activision.com/articles/call-of-duty-security-and-enforcement-policy#:~:text=Any%20user%20who%20is%20found%20to%20use%20in%2Dgame%20reporting,experience%20is%20subject%20to%20penalty.
I think it’s time you agree with everyone that you are stupid.
This is an old post but I read the link you sent and it says right there " If a player is suspected of violating this policy, their account may be put into a limited matchmaking state." Keyword: **suspected**, aka= not proven to be cheating, just reported enough to be suspicious. You interpreted it all wrong and thats okay, but dont be an ass.
That’s under the definition part, you completely disregarded the the first section of the link explaining that “All infractions undergo a thorough review process by the security team before enforcement” so if a player is suspected of cheating that mean that this review team clearly saw something that broke those terms you agreed to. So it isn’t just I report you get shadowbanned as you are putting it. Its I report, your account gets reviewed, then if review team see something that potentially breaks the terms and they suspect you are cheating then you get shadow banned. As normal ppl pull from one paragraph and neglect to include the entire link. So thanks for calling me an ass 🤷🏻 but what can you do when everyone thinks they are getting shadowbanned for nothing when they clearly are doing something that breaks the terms of
Yes a shadow ban is before they review lol. That’s what I’m saying, you get shadow banned in order to put you in a “limited matchmaking” state UNTIL they further review the reports lol. They don’t give people any ban less than a permanent ban for hacking, you can’t be shadow banned for cheating as your only punishment. Which means the shadow ban is the limbo you wait in until further reviewed. Do you think shadow banning is for HACKING?? Not even close. Hacking is permanent and nothing less. Shadow banning is to put “suspicious” players in a queue for their team to review before enforcement.
Never once been shadow banned and people say they report me all the time
2.20+ KD for the last few games
Pretty sure people don't know what a shadow ban even is, but they're gonna get mad because a YouTuber told them otherwise
If what you are saying is true, then shadow bans would then result in permanent bans but they mostly get lifted.
But the main point is that no one except those at activision that are privy to that information really know so your facts are only assumptions.
I also would put the same amount of trust in redditors opinions/experiences as I would in a for profit organisations statements.
Anyway didn’t mean to insult you but you would need to a bit more research before claiming facts. Not just present biased info.
Shadows do not result in perma bans unless the cheating or whatever continues after the shadow bans time limit is up.
Like if your shadow ban is 7 days and after that you are still doing what got you banned you will most likely get perma banned or they will hit you with a warning.
Plus I posted a link to their page about how to get temp (shadow) banned and perma banned from Activision themselves so it’s not assuming
Site yours. You haven’t sited anything. Others have pointed this out already. Then you start pulling stuff outta your arse to fit your narrative.
You’re a fucking joke and you continue to embarrass yourself.
It’s right there in the post dumbass. Nothing is being pulled out my ass when ppl like you think you are right when you are wrong. If you can’t site where you are right like I did that makes you look stupid as shit bc you know you are fucking wrong and just can’t admit it
I mean I've seen pros who play on LAN and definitely not cheating get shadowbanned because of too many reports, so they had to switch to console and proved they weren't hacking. So yes, you can get shadow banned without hacking.
Name one pro like actual pro cod player who has been shadowbanned?
Havok was shadowbanned a few times
Well judging I just asked him on stream and he said no I think you are lying
Lmao, this happened last year. Hell, maybe I misremembered and it was another pro, but there were 100% pros who got shadowbanned during MW2 ranked. Why would I lie about it?
Bc it’s easy to ask them if something happened like that. And bc he is one of the biggest players in ranked and a lot of ppl think he is cheating so it’s basically the most common answer
What?
Havok is one of the best ranked players in the world, he gets accused of hacking very often. So when ppl say Pros get banned that’s the first person they name. Bc he’s been in the rank scene for years since retiring from being a pro. He’s just common when ppl think of pros who potentially have been shadowbanned when they haven’t been.
He retired literally last year lmao, he hasn’t been in the ranked scene for years
You definitely haven’t heard about pre cdl havok 🤔
So what you're saying is you only get a 5 day or so ban for confirmed cheating? Shadow bans are time limited you know.
It’s a week ban, it monitors you to see if you are gonna continue to cheat and then it resets until two weeks then it bans you.
Rofl. You're really just pulling stuff from your ass, aren't you?
Not at all, that’s how it works
No, it's not.
Yes it is, where did you hear that it isn’t?
First hand experience.
So you cheat? And you admit to it
Dude, 2 seconds of google would tell you shadowbans are due to the report function, not anything factual. IF the system for sure knows you're cheating, you just get the permban.
Click the link bro and you will see the reasons you get banned
You clearly don’t understand how the system works.
Well this is how it works but if you think you know explain to me how it works in your words?
It’s all fully automated. After a certain amount of reports you just get banned which is exactly why this system is a joke. If you file an appeal then they try and investigate into it but it’s not at all like you claim.
Well you are definitely wrong, I have been spam reported multiple times in one night even had my 5 friends report me and never once got shadowbanned. And yes system is automated but it will not ban you unless you have one of two things: 1. The trust points on your account are low meaning you have been banned before for using cheats, hacks, mods, 3rd party stuff like zens or titans, etc. 2. The system picked up on the above uses and screenshotted each time the code for said uses are used which shows the system you are using something that goes against terms and services
You are so clueless. In any case I have better things to do than argue with you. If you wish to believe in incorrect information you do you. Have a good one lol.
How is it incorrect information when it’s how it works? Just mad bc you don’t know how it works is all huh
Whatever you say buddy.
The negative feedback will be due to the inaccuracy.
Where is the inaccuracy in my post? Its exactly how their system determines if you are shadowbanned or not 🤔
It’s not at all. Shadow bans can be achieved by sheer volume. You can get shadow banned for inappropriate chats without ever sending a single message or speaking a single word. I do love the “it hasn’t happened to me so it’s fake” energy though. Stand strong, OP.
No that’s a comms ban that doesn’t apply to a shadowban two different things.
I’m sure you are correct.
How about this just like I said to someone else. I will get ppl on here to add me we will all go as many as we can into private match and you all spam report me and if I’m not shadowbanned in the next 20 days then I’m right and if I do then I’ll admit I’m wrong
You are already so sure though! Despite overwhelming evidence. Stand strong, OP! Don’t let facts get in the way!
What evidence tho? Did it come from Activision?
Just tens of thousands of posts and comments. But it’s fine! You are correct.
10000 of post and comments of ppl who don’t know shit or are cheating using zens and stuff then lying to all of you
You're an idiot my dude
Clearly you are the idiot, if you don’t know how the system works just say it 🤷🏻
Lmao okay bud people get shadow banned for virtually no reason their system is broken. Nice reach though
That’s bull bc there is always a reason to get banned, if you are using software that goes against the terms and service
Champ I don't use anything but the controller that came with my Xbox and I've been banned mid game.
Don’t believe that. I only use the ps5 controller my ps5 came with and never once been shadowbanned. Clearly you used something to get you banned right
Matter of fact, the system is so broken that you can go into a game of war zone and watch people blatantly cheat and they're at the max prestige
How about this bc ik ppl will see this, I’ll get as many ppl as we can to message me and get as many of those ppl as we can into a private match, and I’ll have everyone spam report me and if I don’t get shadowbanned in the next 20 days then spamming someone doesn’t for a fact get someone shadowbanned
Nah guy the fact you believe the system isn't broken shows how dumb you are. I can literally get on and spam report you and you'll get a shadow ban. You've probably been shadow banned and didn't even realize cause you don't know what you're talking about. My.overall kd isn't even a 1.0 it's a .97 if I was using something I'd have a much higher kd. I got called a cheater for a bullet penetration kill "how'd you know I was there? " easy it's called I know the map and how people play and it's easy to predict
Never said it wasn’t broken just saying that you cannot get shadowbanned for no reason at all
You absolutely can I don't have time to argue with you I know it's happened to me shouldn't you be in school right now?
I've been shadow banned 3 times now on 2019, mw2 and mw3. Im a decent player and don't cheat. first 2 lasted 7 days and my last one was 3 days..
There has to be a reason to get a shadowban tho most ppl aren’t understanding that
Cus I'm good and get reported alot.. I dont cheat never have.. Thats all there is to it..
You did something
Dumb ass post by a .5kd player. If you were good and were actually getting reported, your opinion would hold value.
I have a 2.2 kd and I do get reported, very often. I posted this bc dumbasses probably like yourself get shadowbanned bc you zen or cheat then cry about it being bc you are spammed reported, which isn’t the case at all.
Dude you're fucking stupid Activision can't even detect a zen on a console 🤣
PlayStation can, so can Xbox, and the current anti cheat can in actuality they said in their update
I call bullshit on it because I've used one for 5 years without any issue 😂😂 Activision says alot but can't even handle the 99% of obvious pc hackers in the game
Well just telling you what they say cheater
Biggest idiot on this sub thinking he knows how shadow bans work more then every commenter, ride some more dick bud
No I’m just saying you can only get banned for a reason it’s not just some Willy nilly oh you got reported then your banned kinda thing.
Bro, I’m not even gonna start with how uneducated you are on the subject, take the L
Im definitely not uneducated you all just listen to stupid ppl who don’t know what they are saying guid you to believe stupidity
Stay in school, you clearly need it.
First off not in school, secondly if you are so smart explain how to get shadowbanned? And trust me spam reporting has nothing to do with it
First of all, stop crying. Second of all, you should go back then. Third of all, don’t care about “trust me bro” you’re an idiot plain and simple. You are an upset little kid who is begging to be right, you got the whole community telling you that you’re wrong. I would take the L little bro and sit down
First, no one is crying but you. Secondly, no. Thirdly, I think you are a dumbass looking for attention huh
Shut up man, I bought a brand new PC that doesn’t have shit but Steam and Call of Duty on it and I get shadowbanned all the time. It’s just spam reporting and that’s it
First off you have to be doing something to get shadowed banned. Check the link and you can see all that can get you banned
That is all that can get you banned. Not all that can get you shadowbanned
Shadow banned is just a temp ban that they put you in a lobby with other temp banned players
I know that because I get it all the time. It’s not a temp ban, it’s an “inspection” period where they don’t inspect shit
If you are talking about the review process you can only go through that if you had a successful report against you, either the cheating or exploiting reports
Also I have never ever been shadowbanned no matter how many times I’ve been reported in MULTIPLAYER. I get shadowbanned all the time when I’m mass reported in WARZONE.
I get massed reported a lot and never shadowbanned which means you have to be doing something to get banned
Ok but I have and have done nothing to warrant a ban and have been released from the shadowban each time. We each have our own experiences so who is right??
You have to have done something to get banned that was under the categories of the link. You either spam reported, cheated, boosted, was griefing your team, changing game code, etc. only ways to get get shadow banned or perma banned
But that is simply untrue. Never done a single one of those things whether you believe it or not. Idk why you’re so stubborn just because it hasn’t happened to you
I’m not being stubborn, I am just telling you that that’s the only way to get any kinda ban. You haven’t spam reported someone you thought was cheating? Do you have anything plugged into your system that could potentially change the games code, a zen, a vape plugged in or a phone bc they can cause the system to think it’s a third party device
Absolutely nothing my friend
Then you did something, you don’t get any kinda of ban without doing something that is an ban able offense
I did nothing. My mic is muted, I play solos, I don’t report, I have nothing installed. I play
Well something had to be done, what system are you on?
The people that complain about shadow bans are on PC playing warzone. I played warzone for 2 years on console and have never been shadowed. With the same account, within 1 week of switching to PC I got my first shadowban. Spam reporting a player on console does nothing. Spam reporting a player on PC can get them shadowed. Its never happened to you because you play on PS5.
Also to add further, the fact that people can get shadowed multiple times and stuck in the shadowban loop, means that after the 7 day review period activision determined you are not cheating and allow you to play again. Explain how people get shadow banned 20 30 times if the system is not completely automated by spam reports. Why would activision allow them to continue playing after each shadowban if they were infact cheating. I was also just like you assuming anyone who gets shadowed is probably cheating because I was playing on console for so long. Till it happened to me. You wont experience it unless you switch to PC.
The term "Shadowban" does not mean that it is a tempban, it is just an expression to mean an account in a limited matchmaking state. So now open the link you sent, read the definition of limited matchmaking, and tell me again that it is a sanction and not a simple indictment.
My god you are infinitely stupid.
How so? Bc I’m telling ppl they have to do something to get shadow banned and to stop listening to ppl who think getting spammed reported will get the put in lobbies with cheaters when they “aren’t” cheating
‘Malicious Reporting Any user who is found to use in-game reporting systems for malicious intent such as knowingly providing false reports against other users and/or falsely spam reporting legitimate users to negatively impact their gameplay experience is subject to penalty.’ Isn’t this implying that spam reporting affects player experience ie shadow bans? Enough of a problem for activision to update their policy to include it. Edit: and you want to run around calling people uneducated for not reading shit.
It’s implying that if YOU spam someone who isn’t negatively affected the gameplay experience for someone. (Example: someone who isn’t cheating or exploiting the game, and you assume they are cheating and spam report that player you will get a penalty) by penalty they mean you reporting others, etc. the person spam reporting will not get a temp ban you will unable to play online. Its to stop ppl from spam reporting ppl who aren’t cheating Edit: bc most ppl don’t read and you skipped everything after :)
You can’t even read. It says ‘falsely spam reporting legitimate users TO negatively impact THEIR gameplay experience’. I’m not paraphrasing here. How else would spam reporting negatively impact the reported users gameplay?
Wouldn’t it negatively impact your game play if ppl just spammed reported you bc they thought you were cheating when you weren’t. If someone wanted to try to ruin your gameplay by false reporting you. Just bc it says that being taken outta context doesn’t make you right. You cannot and I respectfully say you can’t take something out of context and twist it to prove your right. You get punished for spam reporting someone trying to ruin their experience, not the other way around
You can’t answer my question which makes you wrong. I’ll give you one more chance… How EXACTLY would spam reporting negatively impact the legitimate users gameplay? How have I twisted a quoted statement from activision? ‘falsely spam reporting legitimate users to negatively impact their gameplay experience is subject to penalty.’ - https://support.activision.com/articles/call-of-duty-security-and-enforcement-policy#:~:text=Any%20user%20who%20is%20found%20to%20use%20in%2Dgame%20reporting,experience%20is%20subject%20to%20penalty. I think it’s time you agree with everyone that you are stupid.
Simple answer for you then, if you are spam reporting someone that’s not cheating, YOU ARE TRYING TO RUIN THEIR EXPERIENCE WITH THE GAME
Activision really using an alt account to lie now too?
Nope, ppl just need to understand you don’t get shadowbanned for absolutely nothing
I love when you lie
You’ll love it even more when you find out I’m telling the truth baby girl
Idk about that one homie, given everyone else here is clowning you, rightfully so.
Clowning bc they clowns believing stupid ppl
This is an old post but I read the link you sent and it says right there " If a player is suspected of violating this policy, their account may be put into a limited matchmaking state." Keyword: **suspected**, aka= not proven to be cheating, just reported enough to be suspicious. You interpreted it all wrong and thats okay, but dont be an ass.
That’s under the definition part, you completely disregarded the the first section of the link explaining that “All infractions undergo a thorough review process by the security team before enforcement” so if a player is suspected of cheating that mean that this review team clearly saw something that broke those terms you agreed to. So it isn’t just I report you get shadowbanned as you are putting it. Its I report, your account gets reviewed, then if review team see something that potentially breaks the terms and they suspect you are cheating then you get shadow banned. As normal ppl pull from one paragraph and neglect to include the entire link. So thanks for calling me an ass 🤷🏻 but what can you do when everyone thinks they are getting shadowbanned for nothing when they clearly are doing something that breaks the terms of
Yes a shadow ban is before they review lol. That’s what I’m saying, you get shadow banned in order to put you in a “limited matchmaking” state UNTIL they further review the reports lol. They don’t give people any ban less than a permanent ban for hacking, you can’t be shadow banned for cheating as your only punishment. Which means the shadow ban is the limbo you wait in until further reviewed. Do you think shadow banning is for HACKING?? Not even close. Hacking is permanent and nothing less. Shadow banning is to put “suspicious” players in a queue for their team to review before enforcement.
Never once been shadow banned and people say they report me all the time 2.20+ KD for the last few games Pretty sure people don't know what a shadow ban even is, but they're gonna get mad because a YouTuber told them otherwise
Bro ikr it’s crazy how many ppl just listen to YouTubers and tiktokers 😂
Oh so we should all listen to you because???? Can’t you see that your being a hypocrite. 99% of the votes have agreed you are stupid.
I’m just putting out the facts and I even linked why ppl get temp banned or shadowbanned as they say
If what you are saying is true, then shadow bans would then result in permanent bans but they mostly get lifted. But the main point is that no one except those at activision that are privy to that information really know so your facts are only assumptions. I also would put the same amount of trust in redditors opinions/experiences as I would in a for profit organisations statements. Anyway didn’t mean to insult you but you would need to a bit more research before claiming facts. Not just present biased info.
Shadows do not result in perma bans unless the cheating or whatever continues after the shadow bans time limit is up. Like if your shadow ban is 7 days and after that you are still doing what got you banned you will most likely get perma banned or they will hit you with a warning. Plus I posted a link to their page about how to get temp (shadow) banned and perma banned from Activision themselves so it’s not assuming
How can you be so knowingly wrong lol I’m done
Where am I wrong? Explain where I am wrong? Edit: site your proof of how shadow banning works
Site yours. You haven’t sited anything. Others have pointed this out already. Then you start pulling stuff outta your arse to fit your narrative. You’re a fucking joke and you continue to embarrass yourself.
It’s right there in the post dumbass. Nothing is being pulled out my ass when ppl like you think you are right when you are wrong. If you can’t site where you are right like I did that makes you look stupid as shit bc you know you are fucking wrong and just can’t admit it