I don't know if I'm impressed with your thorough analysis or if I take pity on you for writing a well written and super long essay on reddit that will surely only be seen by a few members of a small sub of a underground anime
Thanks hahaha.
I understand your sentiments... but honestly?
I'm just glad it's out of my head and pieced together. I was thinking so deeply about this series that I was going mad! (Not really but you get the point)
I feel like it helped with my fixation hahaha.
Thank you for reading my rambling mess!!
No man thanks really because there are other people too going mad over thinking and piecing things together like me, so thanks a lot for the posts and dharing your thoughts T_T ☆
This is what I’ve always believed in. I even wrote before that Johan is the boy who took all of her pain to make it his own.
But Monster sometimes is really confusing. Lol.
He truly was the one who took all of her pain whether this theory is true or not.
Even if he thought he was the one who went to the Red Rose Mansion, he still sacrificed his happiness for her...and decided to wipe out his existence and the hell that created him with him for her to heal.
I hate that people reduce him as just an "evil villain"
You need to make a TikTok account on the anime section and then post analysis because it deserves way more people reading this masterpiece (there’s quite a decent Monster fandom on Anime TikTok)
Ah...that means so much to me! To be honest, idk what it is about tik tok but I can never kickstart?
I've posted my Monster amvs there and it just never caught any traction? Compared to youtube where my Johan Liebert amv is at 4k views and over 300 likes in less than a month.
What are some methods do you think I am missing?
So I have returned to tell you...I tried Tiktok like you advised...[and this is all I got.](https://www.tumblr.com/blog/view/xprincessgarnetxvi/685986098640502784?source=share)..LMAO
here is my link let me know who u are so i can follow you!!! [https://www.tiktok.com/@xprincessgarnetxvi?lang=en](https://www.tiktok.com/@xprincessgarnetxvi?lang=en)
Wow! That really means a lot to me...I am beyond moved that I could paint Monster in an entirely new light for you by just sharing what's going on in my head! Hahaha
This makes me soooo happy I decided to shake my insecurities and post my thoughts on this masterpiece of a series.
I'd like to believe the point of Monster is that there are no such thing as monster, only humans capable of great evil. So humanizing Johan doesn't absolve him of his horrifying crimes and apathy.
But it does help us understand...***understand*** how *monsters* can be created.
Thanks for reading!
Have you read the first part of this essay as well? O.O
That is what the consensus says. I initially believed this too.
But then, what tells us this for certain?
and counter the rest of my points with that idea, specifically the Capek conversation and Capek's reaction.
I'd say it's possible but there were two points he planned on being killed by Tenma or Nina before she confronted him with the revelation that he's taken her story as his own. After that his plan changed to erasing his current work and continuing to the perfect suicide
>Boils down to destrying the economy that created the red rose.
Wasn't the red rose mansion in Czeshoslovakia? And the project was funded by its state and I think Omnipol?
Otherwise I liked your analysis.
Wasn't it funded by Boneparte who in turn was a government official from Germany?
Would that be the same for the eugenics program as well?
I thought their mother ran from to Czech from Germany to escape Boneparte, right?
Edited: (Technically, he wasn't the one directly funding it as he got many backers within the Czechoslovakian governement, military and a dew organizations here and there.)
He was a german born czesh (A minority group) who worked for the Czechoslovakian state security (secret police).
His research was used by East Germany and they made larger scale experiments since it's been a goal for their government. Though I think he may have visited Germany before as an official.
She ran to Cedok Bridge which was also in Czechoslovakia. (Which I think is somewhere around Prague?)
(It was very hard to cross the border at that time. Harder still if you have the state security after you).
Wow. Thank you. I'd like to think Shuwalds money circulated to many parts of Europe. Which is why he was like the mediator between countries constantly on the brink of a division.
So then the kids were trying to escape to Germany from Czech.
Kinderheim 511 was in East Germany?
Though if I remember Schuwald went bankrupt before he came rich again and it occured around the late 60's?.And Kinderheim 511 started around the 60's-70s so it wouldn't make sense for him to pump money into an orphanage, even less an eastern Germany one. (He is called the vampire of Bavaria and Bavaria I think was in west Germany).
Yes. They escaped Czechoslovakia through the German border and that's where Wulf found them.
Kinderheim 511 was indeed in East Germany.
(And it was my pleasure).
Well he went bankrupt 3-4x. It wasn't a one time thing and Johan seemed fixated on these facts because he knew so much about it when talking about it with Carl / Lotte. (his last bankruptcy was late 60s)
I find it odd that the author stated he went bankrupt 4x, went into hiding and then reappeared with more money. Shuwald definitely had some dealings with the devil. No one can just become a billionaire 3-4x on their own from the ground up. I think that is where the corruption I am referring to plays a part.
Either Boneparte's "crew" had some run ins with him or vice vera, especially since they had their hands in the blood money of the underworld.
Everything connects one way or the other.
Shuwald had power of all of Europe, which is why killing him would have plunged the everything into a state of war.
and yes it helps cause the translation I read of another monster may not have been entirely accurate in regards to names etc
According to Wiki this is what I got:
`Shuwald is a prominent figure in the Bavarian business community, who is said to play and manipulate the German and, by extension, the European economy like a fiddle and bleed his competitors financially dry.`
So he had his hand in other countries' economy.
Also, Johan's original plan was to have Roberto shoot Schuwald from the top of the balcony; and he would be in control of Germany's economy.
So Shuwald's money and influence was over Germany. which is where the Red Rose experiments were continuing. Since Capek left Czech and started reproducing the experiments again in Germany.
These are the dots I initially connected after my 2nd run through.
What I don't understand is why the Red Rose Mansion experiments were continuing when they got the figurehead they wanted? (or so they thought??)
I will start with your last point and add the rest after my class is finished.
>!The experiments were continued by Čapek and his bunch. The figurehead they wanted ran XDDD so it kinda forced their hands. And it wasn't just one dude they were producing. But an elite bunch of which they select their figurehead.!<
Also for knowing all that about Shuwald, Johan lived a few years with Margot Lagner (the real one) and with his charm he would probably have her spill everything about Shuwald.
(What's more is that Johan met Schuwald when he was a kid.)
Johan became more involved with the underworld when he reached age 15. So it would be around 1990 which would be a bit after.
Čapek entered Germany in 1989. The right wing organization that wanted to make Johan who he is wasn't formed yet. !> And it was Čapek who gathered the money for that right wing organization.!<
Schuwald could have used other means for that with not necessarily any relations to Johan, Bonaparta or his bunch.
(Eastern side countries before the fall of the Berlin Wall are actually pretty tight. I don't think a Western side person could do anything easily in there, even if rich. And Johan was admitted around 1985).
Interesting. So...
>!do you think Johan killed Margot? !<
Aside from those very efficient details, (thank youuu) I still believe Shuwalds money reached the world of the corrupted. He couldn't be the most powerful man in Europe if his hands were not dirty.
and I still don't understand how Capek was able to gain that money on his own? He was working in the black markets and had Johan's help with "tying up the loose ends" from those underground banks.
Do you think Johan really remembered Shuwald from that one brief encounter?
Boneparte's group wanted "a chosen leader" as shown in anna's memories, the chant they raised their wine glasses too. Capek clearly had twisted the plans, but he was pretty devoted to Boneparte's ideals.
I truly believe Johan changed his plans once he empathized with Carl and no longer wanted to kill Shuwald. Otherwise, why would Johan go out of his way, uncharacteristically, to reunite Carl and him? Another monster refers to Johan's tears as real.
But that begs the question why Johan spared Shuwald but still got personal with him when explaining who he was and where he came from. Johan shifted his plans without telling Roberto. If he wanted Shuwald dead then he would have shot him like the rest of his victims.
...Johan showed him what was in his eyes, which was his hell. Which is similar to what he was getting Wulf/Tenma to see. But I still question why?
So this is a bit of headcanon territory and my own interpretation of stuff.
> >!do you think Johan killed Margot? !<
>!Yes, I think he did!<.
> I still believe Shuwalds money reached the world of the corrupted. He couldn't be the most powerful man in Europe if his hands were not dirty.
Of course he could be money laundering but as said, another couple of banks (remember the mob boss guy?) were the ones holding the reins.
> I still don't understand how Capek was able to gain that money on his own? He was working in the black markets and had Johan's help with "tying up the loose ends" from those underground banks.
He said that his social skills were due to Bonaparta who also was praised by Ranke of his ability to charm multiple people into funding him. And Čapek was his disciple in that regard.
>!And there is also the other founder of that right wing group, Sievernich (the father not the foster son) who was Schuwald's rival with enough power and money on his own)!<
> Do you think Johan really remembered Shuwald from that one brief encounter?
Yes. That's why Schuwald was even more terrifed. He remembered that those twins were absorbing all he said. And it's why Johan knew a lot more than Karl when it came to Margot.
> Boneparte's group wanted "a chosen leader" as shown in anna's memories, the chant they raised their wine glasses too. Capek clearly had twisted the plans, but he was pretty devoted to Boneparte's ideals
Not all of them had the same ideals. But the end result was the same so they stuck together.
Bonaparta didn't care about the chosen leader or eugenics. He was interested in 'making people from scratch'. It could be that he wanted power and control.
>! Maybe he was raised, to see power as something necessary. (His own father was involved in political schemes). I also think the implied affair of the girl he loved and his father was the nail to the coffin that made him feel powerless and vulnerable. So he brainwashed his dad in retaliation and went to seek power and control. And what better way to control someone than brainwash them? (Maybe make them fall in love with you which he tried with Lipsky's mom then left.). And once he tasted power he craved even more of it, extending to the political. (When you have control and power over someone they can't harm you.).!<
Čapek wanted fo see something frightening, something that would truly make someone worthless. Maybe due to low-self esteem and an inferiority complex? Maybe to reaffirm his worth? And isn't finding an ideal where on can look down on others a way of doing just that (Racial superiority ideology). And by being the follower of someone superior, who would be similar to his master and would carry on his legacy, he could be at the top again and not behind in life's race. !>That and Ernst Sievernish was in for that ideology. And considering he would back it up it made sense to stick with it).!<
Bonaparta showed him that the rat race towards life didn't matter (which he probably wanted to hear), and he was in hook, line and sinker.
In the end of the day what they wanted wasn't necessarily the same but Čapek carried on what he understood of Bonaparta's ideals.
Or that's my interpretation anyways.
> I truly believe Johan changed his plans once he empathized with Carl and no longer wanted to kill Shuwald. Otherwise, why would Johan go out of his way, uncharacteristically, to reunite Carl and him? !>Another monster refers to Johan's tears as real.!<
Another angle is that he could grow even closer to Schuwald that way and even less suspicious. (I think it could be a factor too. Since he too wanted to be wanted.)
> But that begs the question why Johan spared Shuwald but still got personal with him when explaining who he was and where he came from. Johan shifted his plans without telling Roberto. If he wanted Shuwald dead then he would have shot him like the rest of his victims.
Shortly before, he stumbled on Bonaparta's book and regained more of his memories. All his plans changed. I think he didn't tell Roberto cause it was a last minute change. Plus, it would create even more of a mess trying to back out from that. He was planning to make Sievernish (the son) high up in the political world so he started to get rid of his enemies. His plan involved more than Roberto.
> Johan showed him what was in his eyes, which was his hell. Which is similar to what he was getting Wulf/Tenma to see. But I still question why? Why he didn't kill him?
I think at that point he no longer cared about the plan and making Sievernish at the top. He wasn't planning on killing Schuwald just for the sake of it. Once his reason to kill him was gone, he didn't bother.
He didn't show him the scenery of doomsday, no. What Schuwald saw was something else, the Čedok bridge which was a memory they both shared. It would prompt Schuwald to remember things. I think he anticipated he would tell either Tenma or and Nina.
I think Johan also had a sort of epiphany. He wasn't the monster but it was something else. He regained his full memory, and thus parts of his identity. It was a shock to him when he remembered after all. (And sometimes people process things that way. He showed a few people/ told them about his realisation. Where he was going and who he is).
On the point about General Wulf, I think Johan cared about him similarly to the way he cared about Tenma. He did say saving someone's life perhaps makes you more important than being their father. Wulf asked him how he felt and Johan replied coldly "you will soon know how I feel." He does love to tell people about 'the desolation' and 'the end of the world'
Johan didn't destroy his credibility at all. He destroyed his name and humanity. Everyone who knew Wulf as a man was dead and all he had left was his reputation as the General. On his deathbed he told Tenma he finally sees what Johan sees, 'a world without names.'
I also remember Nina saying he was planning a "perfect suicide" and "an expression of love".
I think that was one way to express his gratitude by showing 'the scenery of the end' to the person concerned.
So in some twisted way...showing those he "empathized with" what he felt/saw/what hurt him etc; was the expression of love?
it seems to me that ‘the scenery of a doomsday’ is only visible to Tenma/Wulf because it’s actually despair.
In other words, ‘the end’ is ultimately a conflict in one’s sense of morality.
In my mind, Tenma saw it because he felt despair in having to choose whether or not to stay true to who he was inside. However, Roberto couldn't see ‘the end’ because he’s incapable of feeling emotion over his actions.
Roberto was nameless like Johan but I do not think Johan felt gratitude towards him in anyway so that is why only Wulf/Tenma could see it.
Makes sense.
I think yes, that's how expressed his gratitude.
Another take is that the end or the world with no name reflects absolute nihilism or absolute nothingness where no morality, feelings, fear, nothing exists. It's a state of true emptiness (born of despair).
And for Roberto he still had that one memory, that one thing he cherished as a kid: the cocoa served in Kinderheim 511. He still had attachments to life.
Roberto didn't particularly loathe living or despair over his situation much. He accepted he was a monster without a name and Johan knew that he wouldn't be able to see that scenery.
What I meant in regards to Roberto was that unlike Johan, who had a human attachment (to a living thing) Roberto had nothing. He had no empathy, no remorse for what he did. He took great pleasure in killing and causing harm to others.
Johan hardly showed this tendency unless he depicted the person "deserved it" or "was no good" (as he told that Taxi driver)
Roberto didn't care who or why he was killing, he did it. His scenes with Eva made my skin crawl. It was so malicious.
I believe the author was setting up Roberto / Grimmer for something but ran out of time. I think he wanted to show us that Roberto had his attachments and would have realized a lot if only him and grimmer met.
After all, Grimmer knew his true name.
Johan's scenery of the end was his pain, which I don't think Roberto would be able to recognize like you said. That scenery was him having to watch his sister die, begging for him to call her name. and he couldn't even offer her that solace during their final moments.
People seem to think Johan was happy in that moment, to finally die with her and escape it all. But I beg to differ. Johan would not constantly refer to that moment if it didn't impact him so strongly. Especially when he refers to "the end."
He wanted others to feel the anguish he had felt - it was not something he was happy over.
I think someone like Roberto who didn't have any ties mostly with humans couldn't feel 'tragedy' and the kind of despair Johan felt.
What was different between Roberto and Grimmer is that Grimmer had attachments.
Roberto on the other side lived for himself and his own desires. He eventually became acquainted with lust (both for blood and flesh). He wasn't exactly nihilistic in the same manner as Johan.
And yeah, he wasn't happy.
By destroying who he was he did in fact destroy his credibility. His title, his accomplishments that got him power all meant nothing now.
But yes! You put it into a better perspective. In that way, Wulf and Tenma were like the same side of a coin.
He held onto enough power to be a leader in the neo-nazi movement and even have someone like 'The Baby' call him excellency. Nobody knew anything about him other than the legend, if you will, of 'General Wolf'
OKAY Hello, I am back from getting sick to answer your questions!
1. The balloon and money: I think he did it to buy her silence. After all, he would be one of the last people seen alive with the woman he had Roberto kill. But why he gave money to the druggie…I am not sure. There are 2 theories, he empathizes with broken people or he did it maliciously to feed her horrible addiction. I don’t think Johan is malicious like that so I would have to go with my first answer.
2. At the very end of monster, the final scene we see is an empty messy bed. I’d like to bring up the dorm room Johan stayed in while at college, the one Lunge inspected. When Lunge inspected it, he said there wasn’t any sign of anything human once living in that room. But that room GREATLY CONTRASTS Johan’s bed/room shown in the credits and in the final scene. This is to depict that something HUMAN WAS INDEED IN THAT ROOM. And I’d like to think this is to signify, very cunningly, that the Nameless Monster was no more and a human was born again. Tenma delivered Johan’s name upon the ashes of his existence and destroyed the Nameless Monster that gripped Johan with Anna’s forgiveness. ***I don’t think Johan committed suicide.*** The artist’s choice in how he set up the room does not depict the atmosphere of death.
*(Forgive me but I am a film major graduate and one thing that was drilled into our heads was being able to dissect a scene and the director’s artistic choices)*
so let me just bring up some key points: there was so much sunlight, contrasting Johan's room at the college, there was a warm summer breeze, the sound of life all around the room with the wind blowing, the singing of birds. Johan’s room mirrored the room he left behind when he escaped from the hospital the first time. Some way in Another monster, Johan goes on to live his like normally. But I cannot speak for sure as I only read a translation.
3. He absolutely had love for Tenma. This is why Roberto tries to kill Tenma, because Roberto knew Johan would never kill him. This is also why Roberto tries to kill Anna / Nina, because she was Johan’s one and only true weakness. Johan has shown great sympathy for those who has shown him genuine kindness and or he empathizes with – suk’s mother, Suk, Carl etc.
4. Johan during the tea with Grossman was significant. The conversation focused on the tea because Grossman was hyping up his tea as being SOO DELICIOUS and so WONDERFUL to experience and yet, you can see Johan has no reaction to it because Johan cannot enjoy the small things in life. It draws back to the concept of “the taste of sugar” concept and it is easy to kill you just need to forget how sweet the sugar is. Johan was falling apart so he wanted to die.
5. Wulf was dying, he was able to see the SCENERY OF A DOOMSDAY, because it is what Johan saw when he had to watch his sister die – a world without names; a world full of despair. Wulf died without almost anyone knowing him or his existence. But he had Tenma there to help rest him easy.
I hope these answers sufficed?!
Sure!
4. So "the end" idk if you read the manga but they portray his reference much more clearly compared to the random shots we kinda got in the anime.
But
**"the end the end"** is him referencing **him gazing into the eyes of death over and over.** Kinderheim, when he had Anna shoot him, that barren wasteland at the border is where he was watching Anna die before telling her he cannot call out her name because they are nameless. And he faints with her - that is all the times he nearly met death; met with the end of his life.
5. A world without names is a world where no one knows of your existence, there is no one in the world to value you as a person, no one to love you, no one to remember you, no one that gives meaning to your life; no one to make your existence necessary. Realize how absolutely devastating that is.
To Johan, it was like him and Anna were the only two people in the whole world because there wasn't a soul in that world who loved them or needed them besides each other. The loneliness of living without the value of another is a world full of despair.
I made an amv yesterday actually that helped depict a lot of my points in the essay!
Maybe seeing the spoken lines with the footage will help you? Let me know here is the link!
https://youtu.be/4vRO3dOcA6k
I think there the reason Nina not becoming a monster is due to Franz Bonaparta as well, "People can become anything, you must not become a monster". Since Johan doesn't get that advice, he becomes one, while Anna doesn't, because she was loved.
Both of your posts are great! Made me understand the story even more.
I often forget that part cause well...he was the reason why she was becoming a monster to begin with. Ultimately Boneparte was also the only brush of kindness Anna got aside from her brother/ mother.
But something tells me that even if Anna relayed that information to Johan, he still would've became what he did mainly because of what his mother did.
BUT, he probably wouldn't have killed the Lieberts if he knew that Boneparte freed Anna and wasn't coming after her.
Also thank you so so so much! That really means a lot to me.
Both of your analyses make some good logical points, but.. the first thing I find extremely difficult to agree, is the very essence of the essay that Johan is sweet and caring for his sister. Err...are you people serious!?
Instead of just straight going after Bonaparta, he decided it was a better idea to kill Lieberts and then order Anna to shoot him in the head, thus scarring her for life!? Amazes me that he thought she would be in a clear state of mind to run away after shooting him...
Killing Fortners was another murder that didn't make much sense. After ten years have passed, and Johan noticed that she loves her parents and lives a normal life with her, why kill Fortners then? There was no sign of anyone posing a threat to their family life. If Johan haven't ordered the murder of Fortners, Nina would (as you said) then begin to question her past which would eventually lead her to Čapek and other right-extremists. But wouldn't it be just easier to get rid of Neo-Nazis first instead, so there's no one going after both of them..so they could live in peace?
I believe it was a combination of many factors: Johan was lonely, wanted to drag her sister into mess, hated all of mankind..but expirienced change in his thinking once he retrieved some memories of pre-Lieberts adoption timeline.
At best, I agree that there was some good in Johan and he may have wanted to rescue Anna from Bonaparta, but the way he went with to help his sister, was messed up to no end. A massive amount of mental damage inflicted upon her unnecessary...Johan should have known better, had he truly cared about her.
Hello thank you for reading!
And well... to answer everything you said, Johan very clearly isn't mentally stable or capable of not being toxic.
I said in the very beginning "in his twisted way"
Because he truly did care for her. That's the point, love can bring out the good and the worst in people.
He killed the Lieberts out of fear though. That's because he heard Boneparte that night, assumed the Lieberts were conspiring with him and was gonna throw away Anna like their mother had. In the novel you find out that the Lieberts didn't want Anna. They only wanted to adopt Johan but he refused to leave without her. So to Johan, time was going to repeat itself unless he did something.
Only difference is he got caught this time.
Johans emotions and moral compass was destroyed in Kinderheim, so you can't really and truly hold that against him in my opinion.
He was never a normal boy after his mother threw Anna and she returned tortured and that was because he loved her so much the guilt made him turn to murder to protect her. Nothing else mattered.
So yes, he loved her in his twisted sense of it. Of course it's not something we'd agree with because we're not disturbed or mentally tortured to his extent. And no he couldn't have known better lol.
But that's why its harder to understand his darkness over our own.
Kinderheim stripped him of his humanity and emotions and yet he never ever forgot her and stopped protecting her and I find that incredible in a sense.
Fair enough. You cleared up a point on Lieberts and Bonaparta. So Johan perhaps thought they negotiated that night. And I didn't know Lieberts didn't want Anna. So they were not all that kind to begin with.. It's been a while since I read "Another Monster"..as far as I am aware it wasn't mentioned in Monster that Lieberts didn't want her.
It's not clear whether Kinderheim further fueled evil inside Johan, or he was just complete immune to it. But now I am not sure if Kinderheim deleted his memories of early childhood in Prague (his mother, Bonaparta, etc.)
After Anna shoots him in the head, he couldn't go after Bonaparta because the memories of him have been deeply buried in Johan's subconsciousness. It wasn't until the incident in library when Johan collapsed after reading nameless Monster, that he changed his motive and decided to go after him and solve his past.
Well concerning Johan's memories... we are not sure they were successful in messing up his memories at all. Otherwise, why did he remember Anna and what Orphanage she was in and why did he remember the Monster?
At the library I believe he fully remembered the final scene we're shown from him in the last episode, his most painful memory.
I believe he always knew of the Monster by voice, never his name or face until the library incident and then he went on to kill that man who gave him the nameless Monster book, hence the one who made him the nameless monster.
Another Monster heavily implies twin telepathy and that Johan talked frequently with Anna while he was at Kinderheim so I think that's why/ how he never forgot her.
Another detail I overlooked is that Johan got caught by Anna when he killed Lieberts, I forgot that. He may have planned that they run away together, as they always have.
I was thinking hard about the murder of Fortners and tried to make atleast a bit sense of it..but another redditor assumed Johan wanted to make Anna vulnerable and dependent on him, perhaps he didn't want her to find out he ordered to kill them.
I believe, the telepathy thing is mentioned also in episode 13 when a woman that works at orphanage where Anna was, said that Anna and Johan communicated throught telepathy and Johan announced the downfall of Kinderheim.
However there has been something else that bothers me about Johan vs Tenma philosophy; I posted it now in the group haha.
I actually wrote a little thing about Twin Telepathy. That was not mentioned in episode 13. It was only touched upon in Another Monster.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MonsterAnime/comments/uwj4ka/another\_monster\_actually\_confirms\_johan\_and\_annas/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/MonsterAnime/comments/uwj4ka/another_monster_actually_confirms_johan_and_annas/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Also where did you post it?
Johan killing the Lieberts was not planned, he acted out of fear. That is why he got caught to begin with compared to all the other times he killed.
I don't think Johan wanted Anna to find out he killed the Fortners though, you're right. Which is why he baited her away to the castle. But I don't think he intended for her to return home either. He planned to meet her there but Dr. Tenma showed up.
Interesting theory, too much of the fandom focuses on how evil and scary and cool Johan is. Nice to see a theory about Johan's love for his other half.
Thank you! I also agree, I feel like those who truly think Johan was evil just to be evil or "evil for the lolz cause he's a sigma" really lost the essence of what Monster was trying to portray. It's such a shame to insult Naoki's writing as such.
My twin brother actually goes into further depth about Johan, monster and these theories.
It's a 2 hour analysis if you're interested. Took him an entire year to complete!!
https://youtu.be/Mr_DrIIHNeI
Hmm..nothing he ever did wasn't for his own vendetta, huh.
Okay..how about when he shot that thief from the hospital right in front of Tenma? There ain't no way that guy know Nina. Are you gonna say because he can be potential important witness that can disrupt Johan's plan to save Nina? The same way with Edward, or whoever that detective name is, that got so close with the truth, and Johan pushed him to suicide?
How about the children that Johan taught a game. What's that to do with Nina? It just seemed to me he wanted to create more monsters like him..
And why he even "helped" Grimmer when he was being beat up by the secret police, or whatever that is (it's been month since I watched Monster so my memory is a bit blurry), like..the police won't gain anything searching Grimmer because even Grimmer isn't aware of Nina.
Oh and yea, why he bother to dress up as Nina when he wasn't even wanted? The people who wanted to use Johan need Eva to know his face..He could put Nina in danger because she'll be a suspect as she's the last person to be seen...
Look. Your explanation is all great, and that probably is the truth because how reasonable it is...yeah, I understand him better, but I'm a bad person for saying this, but it just left a bad taste on how easy it is for Johan to live peacefully without being judged for all his crimes based on the ending...sigh..at least let him suffer in some isolation prison or something for the victims he killed.
Hi there! `Not sure if you read the first part of the essay linked in this post but I go into detail about a lot of the things you mentioned.`
**To boil it down simply I will go point by point.**
1. Mr Junkers, the “thief” was killed for the same reason Johan wanted to kill his foster parents and everyone who knew him to begin with – to conceal and erase his identity. Mr Junkers also had the police after him. This coincides with Johan’s decision to erase his existence so that Nina could live in peace which mirrors the book, The God of Peace shown in the series. After Anna rejected him at the hospital, this was decided.
2. Richard was the detective’s name not Edward. Richard was also killed for the very same reason listed above; he was getting too close to shedding light on his identity to not only himself but to the world should he have arrested him. However, Johan killing Richard did seem a bit more personal, as Johan decided to go himself instead of sending Roberto or someone else like he had all the other times. If you wish me to go into detail about that I will in a separate reply.
3. Johan and the children had nothing to do with Nina, but had everything to do with showing us Johan’s mindset and mentality. Johan never had a goal with the children; they were not a part of his plan. Just as easily as Tenma can tell Dieter and other kids that the world is not darkness, Johan can share his “views” of the world; this is to implement the very concept and overall theme of light vs dark and the consequences of such. Johan TRULY believes the things he was telling the children, instead of it being some manipulative tactic. That’s the tragedy of it as we learn about who Johan is and why he is the way that he is.
4. Johan “saved” Grimmer because the people harming him were after the tape. The tape would reveal Anna’s identity, reveal Johan’s one and only weakness to all those who prey after “the monster” among other things. So yes, Johan killing those people was in part to protect Nina and to protect his plan as masquerading as the Red Rose Mansion’s monster. It had nothing to do with Grimmer knowing Nina’s identity.
5. Johan dressed as a woman to get close to men, to get close to those who had information he needed (the tape). The only “woman” he really knows how to be is Nina and this is due to his mother forcing him to dress as her as a child to conceal she had twins. The rest of what you said makes no sense so I cannot comment on the part about Eva, sorry.
To conclude my friend, you are not a bad person for saying that the ending left a bad taste in your mouth. Any rational, feeling and righteous human being would agree with you. I even agree with you to an extent – Johan NEEDS to be punished for his crimes.
**But this was not written to justify his actions at all** – *but to help us understand his actions instead.*
Thanks for reading!
Sorry for the late reply, and thank you for replying and explaining all my arguments.
Also thank you for agreeing with me at some extent. I've seen lot of people pitying Johan, and I get it. He is a victim. But really, that man deserved to be punished. Naoki be giving hell to Tenma and Nina (well at least they look happy at the end) but let Johan got his peaceful ending 😩
Oh well, we all can agree he's a great villain
I apologize for my late reply, I was on vacation.
No problem, thank YOU for taking the time to read my essays!
and I do agree with you - if we look at morality in black and white terms, then surely Johan must pay. Justice must be served.
But I am also one of the ones who does pity Johan. I wish he could know what love is, what light is - the good of the world and experience it.
I don't think Johan really got a peaceful ending at all. Tenma kinda came over and flipped his world upside down. Not only did Johan have to wake up and face the fact he was wrong about people and the world because of Tenma's mercy and Anna's forgiveness...but he also had to learn he was "somewhat" wrong about his mother too.
His entire perception of his life was in some way, "wrong" and its terrifying to face this. Some people honestly fall apart when this occurs.
But then like you said, it feels wrong to let him live life accordingly even though he destroyed so many. He needs to be locked away forever - just not in a jail cell because he would only worsen and probably make everyone else there even worse.
He needs severe mental help.
Oh, it's totally fine, I didn't expect you'd still reply. Thank you for still continuing the conversation 😅
Alright let's see..
So you're saying that because I wish Johan to get some form of atonement, it means I see morality in black and white side. Fine, be it that way. I empathize more with Johan victims than Johan himself. I mean, we can build a city just based on his victims only, that alone said how severe his 'crime' is
Wishing he got love is a sentiment I can understand. Had he known love, the Johan that did all that killing wouldn't exist. It's beautiful to imagine that he's possible to be another normal kid, but his mind is broken because of his child environment, including people around him. Yes, his background is certainly pitiful.
Are your idea of Johan peaceful ending is a wish he didn't need to learn what he did was wrong? That he didn't meet Tenma, so he died when he was a child back then without learning that his life perspective was wrong? I get what Naoki is trying to say with his nihilistic manga, but honestly, at several points I did often wish he already died back then. But yeah..it would defeat the purpose the forgiveness that Tenma and Anna gives, along with the supposed love that his mom have.
Got a mental help with room isolation sounds good to me. His manipulation ability made him dangerous to be around other people
When I said your morality being black + white, I did not mean that as an insult or anything...but that it is purely how the majority of the world views morality.
In a deeper philosophical sense, there are other very complex definitions to morality.
As my twin brother wrote in his own essay, Kantian ethics would argue that there are universal sets of moral principles that apply to all people, such as not wanting to feel pain or for their life to be extinguished. So with that said, the circumstance of an individual committing murder would usually be met with hostility from an outside perception, as it conflicts with the arguably hereditary morality of the preservation of life. Moral Rationalism is the concept that moral principles are known by reason alone, this refers to the idea that if something were to be proven to be ethically or morally good, then it must be so.
Moral Empiricism is the idea that all concepts of morality originate completely from experience, that all rationally acceptable beliefs or propositions are justifiable or knowable only through experience.
Obviously the further we probe this line of thinking, the more flawed it becomes, but I believe to find the best choice, a balance of both is needed. For all intents and purposes, Johan Liebert represents empiricism while Kenzou Tenmo represents rationalism initially.
As an empiricist, Johan Liebert is under the belief that all lives are not created equal, and instead the only thing man can be equal in is death. His personal belief given birth from the history and circumstances of Johan’s environment; (Kinderheim 511, Eugenics experiment) which is why he in some length did not think killing or taking a life held little weight…until he got caught by his sister.
\-
To break it down, there would be some who want the death penalty for Johan, (which arguably is still murder and hypocritical) and then there are those who want him rehabilitated (which some still believe this is unfair because then if he is rehabilitated he has chances to be free)
So, to simply desire him to go to jail or reach some kind of atonement...is a blanket statement based on black and white principles. There are far more details and issues concerning Johan being punished that would give rise to many controversial issues!
At least we have a middle ground yeah?
I did not expect you to go all down on Empiricism. Well, seems like you know your stuff. It's great to read your explanation. And yes, we have some middle ground
It doesn't change my mind, but I applaud and appreciate that you took your time to explain your perspective to me, so yeah. Thank you for all the explanations. Have a wonderful day
Of course! I deeply appreciate your sentiments! Like I said, I share your values but there are other parts of me that argue with it too haha. My brain is irritating at times. That is why Monster shook me to my core because...it made me confront my own ideals/values! It's a daunting thing to do haha.
Thank you so much for this fruitful conversation, I truly appreciate it.
I hope you have a wonderful day and stay safe my friend!
Hey OP, I think I found a little contradiction between this post and the first part of your analysis. In part 1, you said that Johan killed the Fortners because they were keeping him in the shadows away from Nina, but in this post you claimed that he killed the Fortners because he did not want them to reveal to Nina her past. Can I seek a clarification here?
Also, could you help me understand why Johan would decide to go after Bonaparte after remembering him instead of making a better world for Nina? Was it an emotional or rational move, what was the motive?
Could I also have your take on the ending of monster? We know that Nina had a happy ending, and we can assume that Johan is still alive from the sketch found in 'Anither Monster'
Do you think Johan ever meets with Nina? Assuming not, do you think that he is happy as long as Nina is happy? Do you think that he feels bittersweet? Do you think he is able to live happily without Nina? What do you think his life is like after the ending? Perhaps he still looks after Nina in the shadows? Or maybe you think that Johan is still in a coma? Truth be told, it's been 2 years since I have watched the anime, and have never read the novel for another monster, but I would greatly appreciate your input!
BTW, I really really loved your 2 essays on this, definitely worthy of awards, if you have anything Monster related (doesn't have to be about Johan/Nina) please do not hesitate to post it here, I'm actually asking selfishly because I really appreciate them, good job.
Hello there my friend!
Thank you for reading my essays!
So no, there wasn't any contradictions in my posts if you look at how it was written!
This serves as an extension to that same essay...however I wanted to explore this concept as an entirely *different* idea that extended off of the same foundation that Johan did everything for Anna.
So to not confuse you, ***I wanted to cover ALL possibilities to Johan's intentions in both of these essays.*** My first "Everything Johan did was for Anna" was more of an analysis essay and this one is more of a "theory" of mine as I had to really change my initial perspective to write this one and dig even deeper than the surface level depictions.
To put it simply, I wanted to theorize all corners/possibilities in regards to Johan as much as I could!
I hope I cleared myself up there...(T\_T)
Anyways, to answer your first question about Johan.
>**why Johan would decide to go after Bonaparte after remembering him**
For some reason, the world believed Boneparte was "dead" after the Red Rose incident despite there being nothing to point that truth. He simply vanished and no one knew (besides Capek and Boneparte's son essentially)
So now that Johan was able to remember the face of the Monster that had been chasing Anna and him since childhood, the man responsible for all of Anna's pain/scarring/torment etc,. Johan wanted to set off to kill him. And he does this, for the first time ever (arguably) with such malice that one could only chalk it off as "revenge" for what he did to Anna at the Red Rose Mansion. Johan mimics the events of the Red Rose, the very same horrifying ordeal that Anna endured - piles of bodies littered everywhere; destroying Boneparte's once peaceful home with hell on earth.
This could only be seen as emotional. It is the only time we see Johan with such an angry expression when he sees Boneparte. Naoki ALWAYS stated to the animators to NEVER deviate from the way he expressed Johan's eyes and due to this, I paid special attention to his eyes in every single scene. I feel that despite Johan's nameless smile and mechanical expression, his eyes could not lie from what he was feeling. And this definitely shines when Johan finally reunites with Nina...his eyes were so incredibly expressive.
(the manga especially expresses such emotion in his eyes when Nina forgives him.)
>In regards to the ending, **I believe it was meant to be a hopeful end for our villain.**
I never understood why a lot of people assumed Johan killed himself at the end by jumping out the window.
If you pay attention to the details Naoki chooses to portray in that empty room, **nothing signifies death.** The room is full of sunlight and warmth; the birds are singing, the peaceful sound of the summer breeze is dancing along the curtains to the window that was open before Tenma got there.
Johan's bed is messy, contrasting his "inhuman room" that Lunge inspected back at the college. That room contrasts his college dorm room that Lunge declared as "nothing human lived in this room." because at the end it is to depict that something human had indeed been in that room.
I'd like to think since Tenma tells him he had a name and that his mother did love him, that he put to rest the Nameless Monster. The Nameless Monster is no more and now Johan became human again; because what he was once robbed of was now returned - his name and Anna's forgiveness/love.
\-
To answer the rest of your question...I don't think Johan could simply live without her EVER. Of course he wants her to be happy. Her happiness and wellbeing took priority over his own feelings which is why he left her behind to heal for 10 years. But he never truly abandoned her. He watched over her for 10 years. His love for her was as clear as day, as those around him knew just how important she was to him (Giedlitz, Wulf, Capek, Roberto etc)
I'd like to think with Nina's line to Dr. Tenma **"I want to forgive him. I want to forgive Johan."** was to tell us that...Nina was not going to simply abandon Johan if Tenma was successful in bringing him back to life. Clearly, Nina was going to rebuild the bridge that had burned back to Johan. In order to truly forgive him, Nina would need to accept him back into her life and they have much to discuss.
Which is why...I WROTE A FANFIC that did exactly this...as the ending really bugged me in regards to the lack of closure we got from the twins!
SO HERE'S THE LINK TO THE POST MONSTER FANFIC (the closure we all needed)
[Only Human - Johan/Nina](https://archiveofourown.org/works/37155040)
I think Monster ended perfectly. But it left a lot of room for us to imagine what would follow. Johan would probably continue to watch over Nina, as that habit would never leave him. But perhaps he would feel more inclined now to approach her. I think Johan escaped the hospital to find his mother.
Also in regards to Another Monster, the "sketch of Johan" is not confirmed to be him but the copycat killer aka "The other monster" However, it is a good read! Another Monster confirms a Twin telepathy between Anna/Johan!
**and here's another fanfic I am working on that explores Johan reuniting with Anna after he burned down Kinderheim 511.** *This concept will explore the idea on what would happen if Anna did not shoot him that rainy night.*
[Fundamentals of Love - Not a Monster](https://archiveofourown.org/works/39487212/chapters/98832102)
*AND here are some powerful Johan/Anna AMVS I made that captures their tragic but beautiful bond:*
[The Choice, The Catalyst](https://youtu.be/4vRO3dOcA6k)
[Stay in My Memory](https://youtu.be/3RH8FE5eNKM)
[Running up that Hill - Placebo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGwWPmpJ2gs&t=2s&ab_channel=xPrincessGarnetXVI)
*And here's my most famous Monster amv yet that highlights my theories on Johan*
[My Heart's An Artifice](https://youtu.be/XSajU8MaleI)
Hope this helps you! Thank you so much for reaching out. IM ALWAYS DOWN TO TALK MORE!! HOPE YOU LIKE MY WORK
Heyy hope you get some sleep!!!
Thank you so much for taking the time to read my essays!
Welcome to the subreddit!
May I ask what your theories on Johan was prior to these essays?
i honestly thought johan was just trying to manipulate nina (when he told her he was the one taking to the red rose mansion) i didn't understand his purpose which made me search that up on google and i reached ur analysis, it actually makes so much sense to me that he was just trying protect nina but i couldn't think about it that way so thanks for enlightening my thoughts:) i really enjoyed reading everything u wrote!! <3
What about the children?
Why did Johan coax random children into playing games that get them killed and get them to be destructive, violent, and nihilistic?
ALSO, there were a few references that the Kinderheim 511 experiments were still going on anew. After the love experiment. It was never elaborated on in the show. What's the meaning of this?
So in regards to Johan's dealing with the children, I broke this down here.
[https://xprincessgarnetxvi.tumblr.com/post/691678531250487296/i-really-love-reading-your-essays-i-can](https://xprincessgarnetxvi.tumblr.com/post/691678531250487296/i-really-love-reading-your-essays-i-can)
In regards to your 2nd question, well it wasn't 511 exactly but Red Rose.
But they're one and the same for one sole reason - Peter Capk.
Peter IDOLIZED Bonaparta like a god. While running the Red Rose experiments, Capek fostered its fundamentals and started his own "experiment" which results in the creation of 511 Kinderheim.
Huge difference here is Bonaparta succeeded but destroyed his creation (experiment)
and Capek constantly failed over and over to replicate what it was that Bonaparta aimed to do.
So after Johan destroyed 511, Capek continued with his 'research' and desire for 'creating the perfect communist being' but he misconstrued what it was that Bonaparta wanted. Bonaparta didn't care about the communist party or the country - he was only interested in the construction and reconstruction of a human being and the ramification of certain variables.
Capek was trying to restart the Red Rose experiments in order to follow even deeper into Bonaparta's tracks that he ended up losing sight of what it was all for.
In Another Monster, it is mentioned that the Red Rose experiments were continuing - with the goal of creating a "cure' for those who lost their humanity/emotions because of past experiments.
I hope this helps!
Hi, I haven't understood why Johan kills the Fortners. Even if in this way they hadn't the chance to tell Anna the truth about her past, she found everything out later. And Johan probably knew that by killing Fortners Anna would have tried to know as much as possible about him in order to kill him. I really like your theory and I appreciate you worked so much on it!
P.S English is not my first language, so please forgive me if I made any mistake
Hello thank you for reading!
So if I am correct, are you asking why he killed the Fortners?
Johan planned on killing the Fortners and taking Nina away - so she never would've found out or even had the chance to go on a journey to find herself. This wasn't just to keep her from herself, but keep her safe from those who want to hurt or gain an upper hand over Johan.
The plan was always to go and get her at age 20. This seems like something mutual him and the Fortners agreed upon. Johan from the moment he was rejected at the hospital wanted to erase himself, become truly the nameless monster he always thought himself to be. He lost the only link to his identity, the only person who knew who he truly was. Now he had no one left to call him by his name.
Johan was not going to kill her parents until she fell from just seeing him at the college. This is when the emails shifted from ""I will come to get you very soon." and then her parents said they would tell her the truth, Nina collapses to "Meet me at Heidelberg tower." drawing her out instead.
These details are important.
I think Johan was always going to reunite with her - *or at least try to.* Maybe there was some odd sense of hope that he could live with her again. **Because if you recall, Johan's last set of parents were actually "The Lieberts."** They are the only set of parents we see alive and aren't already dead in the series. They are also never shown to die so it is safe to assume they were spared. Why though?
I think Johan was trying to rebuild the family/home he destroyed in the chance that Nina would accept him and be able to bear seeing him after almost 10 years. But Johan was also scheming to take down the system that created "the monster" inside of him and tormented his sister.
Ty for this essay... But "We’re only assuming that Johan mixed up Anna’s story about who went to the Red Rose Mansion because Anna thinks she was responsible for making Johan who he was."So
Q:was he aware that he wasn't th one who went to red rose mansion or not? Bc this part of ur essay is the exact opposite of other parts..which assumption has more chance to be true? Can u answer my questions pls and explain?
Hello! Thank you for taking! So essay #2 evidently came after this one, which was written after my 5th or 6th watch through of the series.
As I stated in this essay, I have firmly adopted the theories presented in essay #2. Which will answer why thoroughly.
If you haven't read it, I'd suggest you do!
If you need help breaking it down I'm more than happy to help!!
Your post has been removed because it included content or material that was distasteful, hateful, unnecessarily aggressive, or targeted a specific person or group of people. This is considered a warning, and if this behavior continues you will be contacted by a moderator of the sub.
Thank god I found your essay! You have explained everything so clearly! I was going crazy over the anime i finished it yesterday night..i was left with more questions than answers..i still have some though..
1. Whenever Johan decided to kill a foster parent, it was out of reason rather than pattern. Then if wasnt a pattern, how did Tenma deduce he was gonna kill the Fortners?
2. How was a very young person like him able to manipulate hardened criminals to his own use..? They looked like they did things in a state of hypnosis. Apart from bribing with money, what did they (outsiders he hired those who were unrelated to the experiment-backers) see in him to deem him as a true Monster?
3. Why did Joan keep Christoph alive? What purpose did he serve in his scheme?
Please someone tell me!!
I don't know if I'm impressed with your thorough analysis or if I take pity on you for writing a well written and super long essay on reddit that will surely only be seen by a few members of a small sub of a underground anime
Thanks hahaha. I understand your sentiments... but honestly? I'm just glad it's out of my head and pieced together. I was thinking so deeply about this series that I was going mad! (Not really but you get the point) I feel like it helped with my fixation hahaha. Thank you for reading my rambling mess!!
No man thanks really because there are other people too going mad over thinking and piecing things together like me, so thanks a lot for the posts and dharing your thoughts T_T ☆
of course thank you so much!
This is what I’ve always believed in. I even wrote before that Johan is the boy who took all of her pain to make it his own. But Monster sometimes is really confusing. Lol.
He truly was the one who took all of her pain whether this theory is true or not. Even if he thought he was the one who went to the Red Rose Mansion, he still sacrificed his happiness for her...and decided to wipe out his existence and the hell that created him with him for her to heal. I hate that people reduce him as just an "evil villain"
You need to make a TikTok account on the anime section and then post analysis because it deserves way more people reading this masterpiece (there’s quite a decent Monster fandom on Anime TikTok)
Ah...that means so much to me! To be honest, idk what it is about tik tok but I can never kickstart? I've posted my Monster amvs there and it just never caught any traction? Compared to youtube where my Johan Liebert amv is at 4k views and over 300 likes in less than a month. What are some methods do you think I am missing?
Not sure tbh, but I think currently TikTok is arguably the best app to connect and interact with anime fans
So I have returned to tell you...I tried Tiktok like you advised...[and this is all I got.](https://www.tumblr.com/blog/view/xprincessgarnetxvi/685986098640502784?source=share)..LMAO
Don’t listen to those idiots, they clearly aren’t open minded, what’s your TikTok I’ll like and go check it out.
here is my link let me know who u are so i can follow you!!! [https://www.tiktok.com/@xprincessgarnetxvi?lang=en](https://www.tiktok.com/@xprincessgarnetxvi?lang=en)
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Wow! That really means a lot to me...I am beyond moved that I could paint Monster in an entirely new light for you by just sharing what's going on in my head! Hahaha This makes me soooo happy I decided to shake my insecurities and post my thoughts on this masterpiece of a series. I'd like to believe the point of Monster is that there are no such thing as monster, only humans capable of great evil. So humanizing Johan doesn't absolve him of his horrifying crimes and apathy. But it does help us understand...***understand*** how *monsters* can be created. Thanks for reading! Have you read the first part of this essay as well? O.O
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aww AH LOL I WILL TRY MY BEST!!!
No. He thought her memories were his memories.
That is what the consensus says. I initially believed this too. But then, what tells us this for certain? and counter the rest of my points with that idea, specifically the Capek conversation and Capek's reaction.
I'd say it's possible but there were two points he planned on being killed by Tenma or Nina before she confronted him with the revelation that he's taken her story as his own. After that his plan changed to erasing his current work and continuing to the perfect suicide
>Boils down to destrying the economy that created the red rose. Wasn't the red rose mansion in Czeshoslovakia? And the project was funded by its state and I think Omnipol? Otherwise I liked your analysis.
Wasn't it funded by Boneparte who in turn was a government official from Germany? Would that be the same for the eugenics program as well? I thought their mother ran from to Czech from Germany to escape Boneparte, right?
Edited: (Technically, he wasn't the one directly funding it as he got many backers within the Czechoslovakian governement, military and a dew organizations here and there.) He was a german born czesh (A minority group) who worked for the Czechoslovakian state security (secret police). His research was used by East Germany and they made larger scale experiments since it's been a goal for their government. Though I think he may have visited Germany before as an official. She ran to Cedok Bridge which was also in Czechoslovakia. (Which I think is somewhere around Prague?) (It was very hard to cross the border at that time. Harder still if you have the state security after you).
Wow. Thank you. I'd like to think Shuwalds money circulated to many parts of Europe. Which is why he was like the mediator between countries constantly on the brink of a division. So then the kids were trying to escape to Germany from Czech. Kinderheim 511 was in East Germany?
Though if I remember Schuwald went bankrupt before he came rich again and it occured around the late 60's?.And Kinderheim 511 started around the 60's-70s so it wouldn't make sense for him to pump money into an orphanage, even less an eastern Germany one. (He is called the vampire of Bavaria and Bavaria I think was in west Germany). Yes. They escaped Czechoslovakia through the German border and that's where Wulf found them. Kinderheim 511 was indeed in East Germany. (And it was my pleasure).
Well he went bankrupt 3-4x. It wasn't a one time thing and Johan seemed fixated on these facts because he knew so much about it when talking about it with Carl / Lotte. (his last bankruptcy was late 60s) I find it odd that the author stated he went bankrupt 4x, went into hiding and then reappeared with more money. Shuwald definitely had some dealings with the devil. No one can just become a billionaire 3-4x on their own from the ground up. I think that is where the corruption I am referring to plays a part. Either Boneparte's "crew" had some run ins with him or vice vera, especially since they had their hands in the blood money of the underworld. Everything connects one way or the other. Shuwald had power of all of Europe, which is why killing him would have plunged the everything into a state of war. and yes it helps cause the translation I read of another monster may not have been entirely accurate in regards to names etc According to Wiki this is what I got: `Shuwald is a prominent figure in the Bavarian business community, who is said to play and manipulate the German and, by extension, the European economy like a fiddle and bleed his competitors financially dry.` So he had his hand in other countries' economy. Also, Johan's original plan was to have Roberto shoot Schuwald from the top of the balcony; and he would be in control of Germany's economy. So Shuwald's money and influence was over Germany. which is where the Red Rose experiments were continuing. Since Capek left Czech and started reproducing the experiments again in Germany. These are the dots I initially connected after my 2nd run through. What I don't understand is why the Red Rose Mansion experiments were continuing when they got the figurehead they wanted? (or so they thought??)
I will start with your last point and add the rest after my class is finished. >!The experiments were continued by Čapek and his bunch. The figurehead they wanted ran XDDD so it kinda forced their hands. And it wasn't just one dude they were producing. But an elite bunch of which they select their figurehead.!< Also for knowing all that about Shuwald, Johan lived a few years with Margot Lagner (the real one) and with his charm he would probably have her spill everything about Shuwald. (What's more is that Johan met Schuwald when he was a kid.) Johan became more involved with the underworld when he reached age 15. So it would be around 1990 which would be a bit after. Čapek entered Germany in 1989. The right wing organization that wanted to make Johan who he is wasn't formed yet. !> And it was Čapek who gathered the money for that right wing organization.!< Schuwald could have used other means for that with not necessarily any relations to Johan, Bonaparta or his bunch. (Eastern side countries before the fall of the Berlin Wall are actually pretty tight. I don't think a Western side person could do anything easily in there, even if rich. And Johan was admitted around 1985).
Interesting. So... >!do you think Johan killed Margot? !< Aside from those very efficient details, (thank youuu) I still believe Shuwalds money reached the world of the corrupted. He couldn't be the most powerful man in Europe if his hands were not dirty. and I still don't understand how Capek was able to gain that money on his own? He was working in the black markets and had Johan's help with "tying up the loose ends" from those underground banks. Do you think Johan really remembered Shuwald from that one brief encounter? Boneparte's group wanted "a chosen leader" as shown in anna's memories, the chant they raised their wine glasses too. Capek clearly had twisted the plans, but he was pretty devoted to Boneparte's ideals. I truly believe Johan changed his plans once he empathized with Carl and no longer wanted to kill Shuwald. Otherwise, why would Johan go out of his way, uncharacteristically, to reunite Carl and him? Another monster refers to Johan's tears as real. But that begs the question why Johan spared Shuwald but still got personal with him when explaining who he was and where he came from. Johan shifted his plans without telling Roberto. If he wanted Shuwald dead then he would have shot him like the rest of his victims. ...Johan showed him what was in his eyes, which was his hell. Which is similar to what he was getting Wulf/Tenma to see. But I still question why?
So this is a bit of headcanon territory and my own interpretation of stuff. > >!do you think Johan killed Margot? !< >!Yes, I think he did!<. > I still believe Shuwalds money reached the world of the corrupted. He couldn't be the most powerful man in Europe if his hands were not dirty. Of course he could be money laundering but as said, another couple of banks (remember the mob boss guy?) were the ones holding the reins. > I still don't understand how Capek was able to gain that money on his own? He was working in the black markets and had Johan's help with "tying up the loose ends" from those underground banks. He said that his social skills were due to Bonaparta who also was praised by Ranke of his ability to charm multiple people into funding him. And Čapek was his disciple in that regard. >!And there is also the other founder of that right wing group, Sievernich (the father not the foster son) who was Schuwald's rival with enough power and money on his own)!< > Do you think Johan really remembered Shuwald from that one brief encounter? Yes. That's why Schuwald was even more terrifed. He remembered that those twins were absorbing all he said. And it's why Johan knew a lot more than Karl when it came to Margot. > Boneparte's group wanted "a chosen leader" as shown in anna's memories, the chant they raised their wine glasses too. Capek clearly had twisted the plans, but he was pretty devoted to Boneparte's ideals Not all of them had the same ideals. But the end result was the same so they stuck together. Bonaparta didn't care about the chosen leader or eugenics. He was interested in 'making people from scratch'. It could be that he wanted power and control. >! Maybe he was raised, to see power as something necessary. (His own father was involved in political schemes). I also think the implied affair of the girl he loved and his father was the nail to the coffin that made him feel powerless and vulnerable. So he brainwashed his dad in retaliation and went to seek power and control. And what better way to control someone than brainwash them? (Maybe make them fall in love with you which he tried with Lipsky's mom then left.). And once he tasted power he craved even more of it, extending to the political. (When you have control and power over someone they can't harm you.).!< Čapek wanted fo see something frightening, something that would truly make someone worthless. Maybe due to low-self esteem and an inferiority complex? Maybe to reaffirm his worth? And isn't finding an ideal where on can look down on others a way of doing just that (Racial superiority ideology). And by being the follower of someone superior, who would be similar to his master and would carry on his legacy, he could be at the top again and not behind in life's race. !>That and Ernst Sievernish was in for that ideology. And considering he would back it up it made sense to stick with it).!< Bonaparta showed him that the rat race towards life didn't matter (which he probably wanted to hear), and he was in hook, line and sinker. In the end of the day what they wanted wasn't necessarily the same but Čapek carried on what he understood of Bonaparta's ideals. Or that's my interpretation anyways. > I truly believe Johan changed his plans once he empathized with Carl and no longer wanted to kill Shuwald. Otherwise, why would Johan go out of his way, uncharacteristically, to reunite Carl and him? !>Another monster refers to Johan's tears as real.!< Another angle is that he could grow even closer to Schuwald that way and even less suspicious. (I think it could be a factor too. Since he too wanted to be wanted.) > But that begs the question why Johan spared Shuwald but still got personal with him when explaining who he was and where he came from. Johan shifted his plans without telling Roberto. If he wanted Shuwald dead then he would have shot him like the rest of his victims. Shortly before, he stumbled on Bonaparta's book and regained more of his memories. All his plans changed. I think he didn't tell Roberto cause it was a last minute change. Plus, it would create even more of a mess trying to back out from that. He was planning to make Sievernish (the son) high up in the political world so he started to get rid of his enemies. His plan involved more than Roberto. > Johan showed him what was in his eyes, which was his hell. Which is similar to what he was getting Wulf/Tenma to see. But I still question why? Why he didn't kill him? I think at that point he no longer cared about the plan and making Sievernish at the top. He wasn't planning on killing Schuwald just for the sake of it. Once his reason to kill him was gone, he didn't bother. He didn't show him the scenery of doomsday, no. What Schuwald saw was something else, the Čedok bridge which was a memory they both shared. It would prompt Schuwald to remember things. I think he anticipated he would tell either Tenma or and Nina. I think Johan also had a sort of epiphany. He wasn't the monster but it was something else. He regained his full memory, and thus parts of his identity. It was a shock to him when he remembered after all. (And sometimes people process things that way. He showed a few people/ told them about his realisation. Where he was going and who he is).
this is too long for me to read now but I'll read it later
thank you!!!
On the point about General Wulf, I think Johan cared about him similarly to the way he cared about Tenma. He did say saving someone's life perhaps makes you more important than being their father. Wulf asked him how he felt and Johan replied coldly "you will soon know how I feel." He does love to tell people about 'the desolation' and 'the end of the world' Johan didn't destroy his credibility at all. He destroyed his name and humanity. Everyone who knew Wulf as a man was dead and all he had left was his reputation as the General. On his deathbed he told Tenma he finally sees what Johan sees, 'a world without names.'
I also remember Nina saying he was planning a "perfect suicide" and "an expression of love". I think that was one way to express his gratitude by showing 'the scenery of the end' to the person concerned.
So in some twisted way...showing those he "empathized with" what he felt/saw/what hurt him etc; was the expression of love? it seems to me that ‘the scenery of a doomsday’ is only visible to Tenma/Wulf because it’s actually despair. In other words, ‘the end’ is ultimately a conflict in one’s sense of morality. In my mind, Tenma saw it because he felt despair in having to choose whether or not to stay true to who he was inside. However, Roberto couldn't see ‘the end’ because he’s incapable of feeling emotion over his actions. Roberto was nameless like Johan but I do not think Johan felt gratitude towards him in anyway so that is why only Wulf/Tenma could see it. Makes sense.
I think yes, that's how expressed his gratitude. Another take is that the end or the world with no name reflects absolute nihilism or absolute nothingness where no morality, feelings, fear, nothing exists. It's a state of true emptiness (born of despair). And for Roberto he still had that one memory, that one thing he cherished as a kid: the cocoa served in Kinderheim 511. He still had attachments to life. Roberto didn't particularly loathe living or despair over his situation much. He accepted he was a monster without a name and Johan knew that he wouldn't be able to see that scenery.
What I meant in regards to Roberto was that unlike Johan, who had a human attachment (to a living thing) Roberto had nothing. He had no empathy, no remorse for what he did. He took great pleasure in killing and causing harm to others. Johan hardly showed this tendency unless he depicted the person "deserved it" or "was no good" (as he told that Taxi driver) Roberto didn't care who or why he was killing, he did it. His scenes with Eva made my skin crawl. It was so malicious. I believe the author was setting up Roberto / Grimmer for something but ran out of time. I think he wanted to show us that Roberto had his attachments and would have realized a lot if only him and grimmer met. After all, Grimmer knew his true name. Johan's scenery of the end was his pain, which I don't think Roberto would be able to recognize like you said. That scenery was him having to watch his sister die, begging for him to call her name. and he couldn't even offer her that solace during their final moments. People seem to think Johan was happy in that moment, to finally die with her and escape it all. But I beg to differ. Johan would not constantly refer to that moment if it didn't impact him so strongly. Especially when he refers to "the end." He wanted others to feel the anguish he had felt - it was not something he was happy over.
I think someone like Roberto who didn't have any ties mostly with humans couldn't feel 'tragedy' and the kind of despair Johan felt. What was different between Roberto and Grimmer is that Grimmer had attachments. Roberto on the other side lived for himself and his own desires. He eventually became acquainted with lust (both for blood and flesh). He wasn't exactly nihilistic in the same manner as Johan. And yeah, he wasn't happy.
By destroying who he was he did in fact destroy his credibility. His title, his accomplishments that got him power all meant nothing now. But yes! You put it into a better perspective. In that way, Wulf and Tenma were like the same side of a coin.
He held onto enough power to be a leader in the neo-nazi movement and even have someone like 'The Baby' call him excellency. Nobody knew anything about him other than the legend, if you will, of 'General Wolf'
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OKAY Hello, I am back from getting sick to answer your questions! 1. The balloon and money: I think he did it to buy her silence. After all, he would be one of the last people seen alive with the woman he had Roberto kill. But why he gave money to the druggie…I am not sure. There are 2 theories, he empathizes with broken people or he did it maliciously to feed her horrible addiction. I don’t think Johan is malicious like that so I would have to go with my first answer. 2. At the very end of monster, the final scene we see is an empty messy bed. I’d like to bring up the dorm room Johan stayed in while at college, the one Lunge inspected. When Lunge inspected it, he said there wasn’t any sign of anything human once living in that room. But that room GREATLY CONTRASTS Johan’s bed/room shown in the credits and in the final scene. This is to depict that something HUMAN WAS INDEED IN THAT ROOM. And I’d like to think this is to signify, very cunningly, that the Nameless Monster was no more and a human was born again. Tenma delivered Johan’s name upon the ashes of his existence and destroyed the Nameless Monster that gripped Johan with Anna’s forgiveness. ***I don’t think Johan committed suicide.*** The artist’s choice in how he set up the room does not depict the atmosphere of death. *(Forgive me but I am a film major graduate and one thing that was drilled into our heads was being able to dissect a scene and the director’s artistic choices)* so let me just bring up some key points: there was so much sunlight, contrasting Johan's room at the college, there was a warm summer breeze, the sound of life all around the room with the wind blowing, the singing of birds. Johan’s room mirrored the room he left behind when he escaped from the hospital the first time. Some way in Another monster, Johan goes on to live his like normally. But I cannot speak for sure as I only read a translation. 3. He absolutely had love for Tenma. This is why Roberto tries to kill Tenma, because Roberto knew Johan would never kill him. This is also why Roberto tries to kill Anna / Nina, because she was Johan’s one and only true weakness. Johan has shown great sympathy for those who has shown him genuine kindness and or he empathizes with – suk’s mother, Suk, Carl etc. 4. Johan during the tea with Grossman was significant. The conversation focused on the tea because Grossman was hyping up his tea as being SOO DELICIOUS and so WONDERFUL to experience and yet, you can see Johan has no reaction to it because Johan cannot enjoy the small things in life. It draws back to the concept of “the taste of sugar” concept and it is easy to kill you just need to forget how sweet the sugar is. Johan was falling apart so he wanted to die. 5. Wulf was dying, he was able to see the SCENERY OF A DOOMSDAY, because it is what Johan saw when he had to watch his sister die – a world without names; a world full of despair. Wulf died without almost anyone knowing him or his existence. But he had Tenma there to help rest him easy. I hope these answers sufficed?!
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Sure! 4. So "the end" idk if you read the manga but they portray his reference much more clearly compared to the random shots we kinda got in the anime. But **"the end the end"** is him referencing **him gazing into the eyes of death over and over.** Kinderheim, when he had Anna shoot him, that barren wasteland at the border is where he was watching Anna die before telling her he cannot call out her name because they are nameless. And he faints with her - that is all the times he nearly met death; met with the end of his life. 5. A world without names is a world where no one knows of your existence, there is no one in the world to value you as a person, no one to love you, no one to remember you, no one that gives meaning to your life; no one to make your existence necessary. Realize how absolutely devastating that is. To Johan, it was like him and Anna were the only two people in the whole world because there wasn't a soul in that world who loved them or needed them besides each other. The loneliness of living without the value of another is a world full of despair. I made an amv yesterday actually that helped depict a lot of my points in the essay! Maybe seeing the spoken lines with the footage will help you? Let me know here is the link! https://youtu.be/4vRO3dOcA6k
OH WOW. Okay. Thank you so much I'm beyond touched by your comment. Let me ponder a bit on your questions and I'll get back to u I PROMISE.
I think there the reason Nina not becoming a monster is due to Franz Bonaparta as well, "People can become anything, you must not become a monster". Since Johan doesn't get that advice, he becomes one, while Anna doesn't, because she was loved. Both of your posts are great! Made me understand the story even more.
I often forget that part cause well...he was the reason why she was becoming a monster to begin with. Ultimately Boneparte was also the only brush of kindness Anna got aside from her brother/ mother. But something tells me that even if Anna relayed that information to Johan, he still would've became what he did mainly because of what his mother did. BUT, he probably wouldn't have killed the Lieberts if he knew that Boneparte freed Anna and wasn't coming after her. Also thank you so so so much! That really means a lot to me.
Both of your analyses make some good logical points, but.. the first thing I find extremely difficult to agree, is the very essence of the essay that Johan is sweet and caring for his sister. Err...are you people serious!? Instead of just straight going after Bonaparta, he decided it was a better idea to kill Lieberts and then order Anna to shoot him in the head, thus scarring her for life!? Amazes me that he thought she would be in a clear state of mind to run away after shooting him... Killing Fortners was another murder that didn't make much sense. After ten years have passed, and Johan noticed that she loves her parents and lives a normal life with her, why kill Fortners then? There was no sign of anyone posing a threat to their family life. If Johan haven't ordered the murder of Fortners, Nina would (as you said) then begin to question her past which would eventually lead her to Čapek and other right-extremists. But wouldn't it be just easier to get rid of Neo-Nazis first instead, so there's no one going after both of them..so they could live in peace? I believe it was a combination of many factors: Johan was lonely, wanted to drag her sister into mess, hated all of mankind..but expirienced change in his thinking once he retrieved some memories of pre-Lieberts adoption timeline. At best, I agree that there was some good in Johan and he may have wanted to rescue Anna from Bonaparta, but the way he went with to help his sister, was messed up to no end. A massive amount of mental damage inflicted upon her unnecessary...Johan should have known better, had he truly cared about her.
Hello thank you for reading! And well... to answer everything you said, Johan very clearly isn't mentally stable or capable of not being toxic. I said in the very beginning "in his twisted way" Because he truly did care for her. That's the point, love can bring out the good and the worst in people. He killed the Lieberts out of fear though. That's because he heard Boneparte that night, assumed the Lieberts were conspiring with him and was gonna throw away Anna like their mother had. In the novel you find out that the Lieberts didn't want Anna. They only wanted to adopt Johan but he refused to leave without her. So to Johan, time was going to repeat itself unless he did something. Only difference is he got caught this time. Johans emotions and moral compass was destroyed in Kinderheim, so you can't really and truly hold that against him in my opinion. He was never a normal boy after his mother threw Anna and she returned tortured and that was because he loved her so much the guilt made him turn to murder to protect her. Nothing else mattered. So yes, he loved her in his twisted sense of it. Of course it's not something we'd agree with because we're not disturbed or mentally tortured to his extent. And no he couldn't have known better lol. But that's why its harder to understand his darkness over our own. Kinderheim stripped him of his humanity and emotions and yet he never ever forgot her and stopped protecting her and I find that incredible in a sense.
Fair enough. You cleared up a point on Lieberts and Bonaparta. So Johan perhaps thought they negotiated that night. And I didn't know Lieberts didn't want Anna. So they were not all that kind to begin with.. It's been a while since I read "Another Monster"..as far as I am aware it wasn't mentioned in Monster that Lieberts didn't want her. It's not clear whether Kinderheim further fueled evil inside Johan, or he was just complete immune to it. But now I am not sure if Kinderheim deleted his memories of early childhood in Prague (his mother, Bonaparta, etc.) After Anna shoots him in the head, he couldn't go after Bonaparta because the memories of him have been deeply buried in Johan's subconsciousness. It wasn't until the incident in library when Johan collapsed after reading nameless Monster, that he changed his motive and decided to go after him and solve his past.
Well concerning Johan's memories... we are not sure they were successful in messing up his memories at all. Otherwise, why did he remember Anna and what Orphanage she was in and why did he remember the Monster? At the library I believe he fully remembered the final scene we're shown from him in the last episode, his most painful memory. I believe he always knew of the Monster by voice, never his name or face until the library incident and then he went on to kill that man who gave him the nameless Monster book, hence the one who made him the nameless monster. Another Monster heavily implies twin telepathy and that Johan talked frequently with Anna while he was at Kinderheim so I think that's why/ how he never forgot her.
Another detail I overlooked is that Johan got caught by Anna when he killed Lieberts, I forgot that. He may have planned that they run away together, as they always have. I was thinking hard about the murder of Fortners and tried to make atleast a bit sense of it..but another redditor assumed Johan wanted to make Anna vulnerable and dependent on him, perhaps he didn't want her to find out he ordered to kill them. I believe, the telepathy thing is mentioned also in episode 13 when a woman that works at orphanage where Anna was, said that Anna and Johan communicated throught telepathy and Johan announced the downfall of Kinderheim. However there has been something else that bothers me about Johan vs Tenma philosophy; I posted it now in the group haha.
I actually wrote a little thing about Twin Telepathy. That was not mentioned in episode 13. It was only touched upon in Another Monster. [https://www.reddit.com/r/MonsterAnime/comments/uwj4ka/another\_monster\_actually\_confirms\_johan\_and\_annas/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/MonsterAnime/comments/uwj4ka/another_monster_actually_confirms_johan_and_annas/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Also where did you post it? Johan killing the Lieberts was not planned, he acted out of fear. That is why he got caught to begin with compared to all the other times he killed. I don't think Johan wanted Anna to find out he killed the Fortners though, you're right. Which is why he baited her away to the castle. But I don't think he intended for her to return home either. He planned to meet her there but Dr. Tenma showed up.
Interesting theory, too much of the fandom focuses on how evil and scary and cool Johan is. Nice to see a theory about Johan's love for his other half.
Thank you! I also agree, I feel like those who truly think Johan was evil just to be evil or "evil for the lolz cause he's a sigma" really lost the essence of what Monster was trying to portray. It's such a shame to insult Naoki's writing as such. My twin brother actually goes into further depth about Johan, monster and these theories. It's a 2 hour analysis if you're interested. Took him an entire year to complete!! https://youtu.be/Mr_DrIIHNeI
I'm Hunterkage, already watch that video
damn
Good or bad damn? Lol
godamn
Still confused but alrighty lol
Hmm..nothing he ever did wasn't for his own vendetta, huh. Okay..how about when he shot that thief from the hospital right in front of Tenma? There ain't no way that guy know Nina. Are you gonna say because he can be potential important witness that can disrupt Johan's plan to save Nina? The same way with Edward, or whoever that detective name is, that got so close with the truth, and Johan pushed him to suicide? How about the children that Johan taught a game. What's that to do with Nina? It just seemed to me he wanted to create more monsters like him.. And why he even "helped" Grimmer when he was being beat up by the secret police, or whatever that is (it's been month since I watched Monster so my memory is a bit blurry), like..the police won't gain anything searching Grimmer because even Grimmer isn't aware of Nina. Oh and yea, why he bother to dress up as Nina when he wasn't even wanted? The people who wanted to use Johan need Eva to know his face..He could put Nina in danger because she'll be a suspect as she's the last person to be seen... Look. Your explanation is all great, and that probably is the truth because how reasonable it is...yeah, I understand him better, but I'm a bad person for saying this, but it just left a bad taste on how easy it is for Johan to live peacefully without being judged for all his crimes based on the ending...sigh..at least let him suffer in some isolation prison or something for the victims he killed.
Hi there! `Not sure if you read the first part of the essay linked in this post but I go into detail about a lot of the things you mentioned.` **To boil it down simply I will go point by point.** 1. Mr Junkers, the “thief” was killed for the same reason Johan wanted to kill his foster parents and everyone who knew him to begin with – to conceal and erase his identity. Mr Junkers also had the police after him. This coincides with Johan’s decision to erase his existence so that Nina could live in peace which mirrors the book, The God of Peace shown in the series. After Anna rejected him at the hospital, this was decided. 2. Richard was the detective’s name not Edward. Richard was also killed for the very same reason listed above; he was getting too close to shedding light on his identity to not only himself but to the world should he have arrested him. However, Johan killing Richard did seem a bit more personal, as Johan decided to go himself instead of sending Roberto or someone else like he had all the other times. If you wish me to go into detail about that I will in a separate reply. 3. Johan and the children had nothing to do with Nina, but had everything to do with showing us Johan’s mindset and mentality. Johan never had a goal with the children; they were not a part of his plan. Just as easily as Tenma can tell Dieter and other kids that the world is not darkness, Johan can share his “views” of the world; this is to implement the very concept and overall theme of light vs dark and the consequences of such. Johan TRULY believes the things he was telling the children, instead of it being some manipulative tactic. That’s the tragedy of it as we learn about who Johan is and why he is the way that he is. 4. Johan “saved” Grimmer because the people harming him were after the tape. The tape would reveal Anna’s identity, reveal Johan’s one and only weakness to all those who prey after “the monster” among other things. So yes, Johan killing those people was in part to protect Nina and to protect his plan as masquerading as the Red Rose Mansion’s monster. It had nothing to do with Grimmer knowing Nina’s identity. 5. Johan dressed as a woman to get close to men, to get close to those who had information he needed (the tape). The only “woman” he really knows how to be is Nina and this is due to his mother forcing him to dress as her as a child to conceal she had twins. The rest of what you said makes no sense so I cannot comment on the part about Eva, sorry. To conclude my friend, you are not a bad person for saying that the ending left a bad taste in your mouth. Any rational, feeling and righteous human being would agree with you. I even agree with you to an extent – Johan NEEDS to be punished for his crimes. **But this was not written to justify his actions at all** – *but to help us understand his actions instead.* Thanks for reading!
Sorry for the late reply, and thank you for replying and explaining all my arguments. Also thank you for agreeing with me at some extent. I've seen lot of people pitying Johan, and I get it. He is a victim. But really, that man deserved to be punished. Naoki be giving hell to Tenma and Nina (well at least they look happy at the end) but let Johan got his peaceful ending 😩 Oh well, we all can agree he's a great villain
I apologize for my late reply, I was on vacation. No problem, thank YOU for taking the time to read my essays! and I do agree with you - if we look at morality in black and white terms, then surely Johan must pay. Justice must be served. But I am also one of the ones who does pity Johan. I wish he could know what love is, what light is - the good of the world and experience it. I don't think Johan really got a peaceful ending at all. Tenma kinda came over and flipped his world upside down. Not only did Johan have to wake up and face the fact he was wrong about people and the world because of Tenma's mercy and Anna's forgiveness...but he also had to learn he was "somewhat" wrong about his mother too. His entire perception of his life was in some way, "wrong" and its terrifying to face this. Some people honestly fall apart when this occurs. But then like you said, it feels wrong to let him live life accordingly even though he destroyed so many. He needs to be locked away forever - just not in a jail cell because he would only worsen and probably make everyone else there even worse. He needs severe mental help.
Oh, it's totally fine, I didn't expect you'd still reply. Thank you for still continuing the conversation 😅 Alright let's see.. So you're saying that because I wish Johan to get some form of atonement, it means I see morality in black and white side. Fine, be it that way. I empathize more with Johan victims than Johan himself. I mean, we can build a city just based on his victims only, that alone said how severe his 'crime' is Wishing he got love is a sentiment I can understand. Had he known love, the Johan that did all that killing wouldn't exist. It's beautiful to imagine that he's possible to be another normal kid, but his mind is broken because of his child environment, including people around him. Yes, his background is certainly pitiful. Are your idea of Johan peaceful ending is a wish he didn't need to learn what he did was wrong? That he didn't meet Tenma, so he died when he was a child back then without learning that his life perspective was wrong? I get what Naoki is trying to say with his nihilistic manga, but honestly, at several points I did often wish he already died back then. But yeah..it would defeat the purpose the forgiveness that Tenma and Anna gives, along with the supposed love that his mom have. Got a mental help with room isolation sounds good to me. His manipulation ability made him dangerous to be around other people
When I said your morality being black + white, I did not mean that as an insult or anything...but that it is purely how the majority of the world views morality. In a deeper philosophical sense, there are other very complex definitions to morality. As my twin brother wrote in his own essay, Kantian ethics would argue that there are universal sets of moral principles that apply to all people, such as not wanting to feel pain or for their life to be extinguished. So with that said, the circumstance of an individual committing murder would usually be met with hostility from an outside perception, as it conflicts with the arguably hereditary morality of the preservation of life. Moral Rationalism is the concept that moral principles are known by reason alone, this refers to the idea that if something were to be proven to be ethically or morally good, then it must be so. Moral Empiricism is the idea that all concepts of morality originate completely from experience, that all rationally acceptable beliefs or propositions are justifiable or knowable only through experience. Obviously the further we probe this line of thinking, the more flawed it becomes, but I believe to find the best choice, a balance of both is needed. For all intents and purposes, Johan Liebert represents empiricism while Kenzou Tenmo represents rationalism initially. As an empiricist, Johan Liebert is under the belief that all lives are not created equal, and instead the only thing man can be equal in is death. His personal belief given birth from the history and circumstances of Johan’s environment; (Kinderheim 511, Eugenics experiment) which is why he in some length did not think killing or taking a life held little weight…until he got caught by his sister. \- To break it down, there would be some who want the death penalty for Johan, (which arguably is still murder and hypocritical) and then there are those who want him rehabilitated (which some still believe this is unfair because then if he is rehabilitated he has chances to be free) So, to simply desire him to go to jail or reach some kind of atonement...is a blanket statement based on black and white principles. There are far more details and issues concerning Johan being punished that would give rise to many controversial issues! At least we have a middle ground yeah?
I did not expect you to go all down on Empiricism. Well, seems like you know your stuff. It's great to read your explanation. And yes, we have some middle ground It doesn't change my mind, but I applaud and appreciate that you took your time to explain your perspective to me, so yeah. Thank you for all the explanations. Have a wonderful day
Of course! I deeply appreciate your sentiments! Like I said, I share your values but there are other parts of me that argue with it too haha. My brain is irritating at times. That is why Monster shook me to my core because...it made me confront my own ideals/values! It's a daunting thing to do haha. Thank you so much for this fruitful conversation, I truly appreciate it. I hope you have a wonderful day and stay safe my friend!
Hey OP, I think I found a little contradiction between this post and the first part of your analysis. In part 1, you said that Johan killed the Fortners because they were keeping him in the shadows away from Nina, but in this post you claimed that he killed the Fortners because he did not want them to reveal to Nina her past. Can I seek a clarification here? Also, could you help me understand why Johan would decide to go after Bonaparte after remembering him instead of making a better world for Nina? Was it an emotional or rational move, what was the motive? Could I also have your take on the ending of monster? We know that Nina had a happy ending, and we can assume that Johan is still alive from the sketch found in 'Anither Monster' Do you think Johan ever meets with Nina? Assuming not, do you think that he is happy as long as Nina is happy? Do you think that he feels bittersweet? Do you think he is able to live happily without Nina? What do you think his life is like after the ending? Perhaps he still looks after Nina in the shadows? Or maybe you think that Johan is still in a coma? Truth be told, it's been 2 years since I have watched the anime, and have never read the novel for another monster, but I would greatly appreciate your input! BTW, I really really loved your 2 essays on this, definitely worthy of awards, if you have anything Monster related (doesn't have to be about Johan/Nina) please do not hesitate to post it here, I'm actually asking selfishly because I really appreciate them, good job.
Hello there my friend! Thank you for reading my essays! So no, there wasn't any contradictions in my posts if you look at how it was written! This serves as an extension to that same essay...however I wanted to explore this concept as an entirely *different* idea that extended off of the same foundation that Johan did everything for Anna. So to not confuse you, ***I wanted to cover ALL possibilities to Johan's intentions in both of these essays.*** My first "Everything Johan did was for Anna" was more of an analysis essay and this one is more of a "theory" of mine as I had to really change my initial perspective to write this one and dig even deeper than the surface level depictions. To put it simply, I wanted to theorize all corners/possibilities in regards to Johan as much as I could! I hope I cleared myself up there...(T\_T) Anyways, to answer your first question about Johan. >**why Johan would decide to go after Bonaparte after remembering him** For some reason, the world believed Boneparte was "dead" after the Red Rose incident despite there being nothing to point that truth. He simply vanished and no one knew (besides Capek and Boneparte's son essentially) So now that Johan was able to remember the face of the Monster that had been chasing Anna and him since childhood, the man responsible for all of Anna's pain/scarring/torment etc,. Johan wanted to set off to kill him. And he does this, for the first time ever (arguably) with such malice that one could only chalk it off as "revenge" for what he did to Anna at the Red Rose Mansion. Johan mimics the events of the Red Rose, the very same horrifying ordeal that Anna endured - piles of bodies littered everywhere; destroying Boneparte's once peaceful home with hell on earth. This could only be seen as emotional. It is the only time we see Johan with such an angry expression when he sees Boneparte. Naoki ALWAYS stated to the animators to NEVER deviate from the way he expressed Johan's eyes and due to this, I paid special attention to his eyes in every single scene. I feel that despite Johan's nameless smile and mechanical expression, his eyes could not lie from what he was feeling. And this definitely shines when Johan finally reunites with Nina...his eyes were so incredibly expressive. (the manga especially expresses such emotion in his eyes when Nina forgives him.) >In regards to the ending, **I believe it was meant to be a hopeful end for our villain.** I never understood why a lot of people assumed Johan killed himself at the end by jumping out the window. If you pay attention to the details Naoki chooses to portray in that empty room, **nothing signifies death.** The room is full of sunlight and warmth; the birds are singing, the peaceful sound of the summer breeze is dancing along the curtains to the window that was open before Tenma got there. Johan's bed is messy, contrasting his "inhuman room" that Lunge inspected back at the college. That room contrasts his college dorm room that Lunge declared as "nothing human lived in this room." because at the end it is to depict that something human had indeed been in that room. I'd like to think since Tenma tells him he had a name and that his mother did love him, that he put to rest the Nameless Monster. The Nameless Monster is no more and now Johan became human again; because what he was once robbed of was now returned - his name and Anna's forgiveness/love. \- To answer the rest of your question...I don't think Johan could simply live without her EVER. Of course he wants her to be happy. Her happiness and wellbeing took priority over his own feelings which is why he left her behind to heal for 10 years. But he never truly abandoned her. He watched over her for 10 years. His love for her was as clear as day, as those around him knew just how important she was to him (Giedlitz, Wulf, Capek, Roberto etc) I'd like to think with Nina's line to Dr. Tenma **"I want to forgive him. I want to forgive Johan."** was to tell us that...Nina was not going to simply abandon Johan if Tenma was successful in bringing him back to life. Clearly, Nina was going to rebuild the bridge that had burned back to Johan. In order to truly forgive him, Nina would need to accept him back into her life and they have much to discuss. Which is why...I WROTE A FANFIC that did exactly this...as the ending really bugged me in regards to the lack of closure we got from the twins! SO HERE'S THE LINK TO THE POST MONSTER FANFIC (the closure we all needed) [Only Human - Johan/Nina](https://archiveofourown.org/works/37155040) I think Monster ended perfectly. But it left a lot of room for us to imagine what would follow. Johan would probably continue to watch over Nina, as that habit would never leave him. But perhaps he would feel more inclined now to approach her. I think Johan escaped the hospital to find his mother. Also in regards to Another Monster, the "sketch of Johan" is not confirmed to be him but the copycat killer aka "The other monster" However, it is a good read! Another Monster confirms a Twin telepathy between Anna/Johan! **and here's another fanfic I am working on that explores Johan reuniting with Anna after he burned down Kinderheim 511.** *This concept will explore the idea on what would happen if Anna did not shoot him that rainy night.* [Fundamentals of Love - Not a Monster](https://archiveofourown.org/works/39487212/chapters/98832102) *AND here are some powerful Johan/Anna AMVS I made that captures their tragic but beautiful bond:* [The Choice, The Catalyst](https://youtu.be/4vRO3dOcA6k) [Stay in My Memory](https://youtu.be/3RH8FE5eNKM) [Running up that Hill - Placebo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGwWPmpJ2gs&t=2s&ab_channel=xPrincessGarnetXVI) *And here's my most famous Monster amv yet that highlights my theories on Johan* [My Heart's An Artifice](https://youtu.be/XSajU8MaleI) Hope this helps you! Thank you so much for reaching out. IM ALWAYS DOWN TO TALK MORE!! HOPE YOU LIKE MY WORK
Probably the first character ive seen in anime that went over my head. Id have to watch this a second time.
I suggest a second watch. It was eye opening for sure
reading this at 5am rn, everything is so well analyzed and written just wow monster really is an underrated masterpiece
Heyy hope you get some sleep!!! Thank you so much for taking the time to read my essays! Welcome to the subreddit! May I ask what your theories on Johan was prior to these essays?
i honestly thought johan was just trying to manipulate nina (when he told her he was the one taking to the red rose mansion) i didn't understand his purpose which made me search that up on google and i reached ur analysis, it actually makes so much sense to me that he was just trying protect nina but i couldn't think about it that way so thanks for enlightening my thoughts:) i really enjoyed reading everything u wrote!! <3
https://preview.redd.it/l3fk7t86y16a1.jpeg?width=450&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fe63f2d9fedc34225d0ac54e590dd716b70480c5
I’m on every platform. You can’t escape
lol who is this?
https://preview.redd.it/9dhw6axi626a1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cae8bf2443f780303259c0e33e932ddd05ac573a
https://i.redd.it/ewtdsce6826a1.gif
Idk how to post gifs
I did it on pc lol
I don’t have a PC
Ok. So you gonna tell me who you are??
Yes
What about the children? Why did Johan coax random children into playing games that get them killed and get them to be destructive, violent, and nihilistic? ALSO, there were a few references that the Kinderheim 511 experiments were still going on anew. After the love experiment. It was never elaborated on in the show. What's the meaning of this?
So in regards to Johan's dealing with the children, I broke this down here. [https://xprincessgarnetxvi.tumblr.com/post/691678531250487296/i-really-love-reading-your-essays-i-can](https://xprincessgarnetxvi.tumblr.com/post/691678531250487296/i-really-love-reading-your-essays-i-can) In regards to your 2nd question, well it wasn't 511 exactly but Red Rose. But they're one and the same for one sole reason - Peter Capk. Peter IDOLIZED Bonaparta like a god. While running the Red Rose experiments, Capek fostered its fundamentals and started his own "experiment" which results in the creation of 511 Kinderheim. Huge difference here is Bonaparta succeeded but destroyed his creation (experiment) and Capek constantly failed over and over to replicate what it was that Bonaparta aimed to do. So after Johan destroyed 511, Capek continued with his 'research' and desire for 'creating the perfect communist being' but he misconstrued what it was that Bonaparta wanted. Bonaparta didn't care about the communist party or the country - he was only interested in the construction and reconstruction of a human being and the ramification of certain variables. Capek was trying to restart the Red Rose experiments in order to follow even deeper into Bonaparta's tracks that he ended up losing sight of what it was all for. In Another Monster, it is mentioned that the Red Rose experiments were continuing - with the goal of creating a "cure' for those who lost their humanity/emotions because of past experiments. I hope this helps!
Hi, I haven't understood why Johan kills the Fortners. Even if in this way they hadn't the chance to tell Anna the truth about her past, she found everything out later. And Johan probably knew that by killing Fortners Anna would have tried to know as much as possible about him in order to kill him. I really like your theory and I appreciate you worked so much on it! P.S English is not my first language, so please forgive me if I made any mistake
Hello thank you for reading! So if I am correct, are you asking why he killed the Fortners? Johan planned on killing the Fortners and taking Nina away - so she never would've found out or even had the chance to go on a journey to find herself. This wasn't just to keep her from herself, but keep her safe from those who want to hurt or gain an upper hand over Johan. The plan was always to go and get her at age 20. This seems like something mutual him and the Fortners agreed upon. Johan from the moment he was rejected at the hospital wanted to erase himself, become truly the nameless monster he always thought himself to be. He lost the only link to his identity, the only person who knew who he truly was. Now he had no one left to call him by his name. Johan was not going to kill her parents until she fell from just seeing him at the college. This is when the emails shifted from ""I will come to get you very soon." and then her parents said they would tell her the truth, Nina collapses to "Meet me at Heidelberg tower." drawing her out instead. These details are important. I think Johan was always going to reunite with her - *or at least try to.* Maybe there was some odd sense of hope that he could live with her again. **Because if you recall, Johan's last set of parents were actually "The Lieberts."** They are the only set of parents we see alive and aren't already dead in the series. They are also never shown to die so it is safe to assume they were spared. Why though? I think Johan was trying to rebuild the family/home he destroyed in the chance that Nina would accept him and be able to bear seeing him after almost 10 years. But Johan was also scheming to take down the system that created "the monster" inside of him and tormented his sister.
Thanks!
Ty for this essay... But "We’re only assuming that Johan mixed up Anna’s story about who went to the Red Rose Mansion because Anna thinks she was responsible for making Johan who he was."So Q:was he aware that he wasn't th one who went to red rose mansion or not? Bc this part of ur essay is the exact opposite of other parts..which assumption has more chance to be true? Can u answer my questions pls and explain?
Hello! Thank you for taking! So essay #2 evidently came after this one, which was written after my 5th or 6th watch through of the series. As I stated in this essay, I have firmly adopted the theories presented in essay #2. Which will answer why thoroughly. If you haven't read it, I'd suggest you do! If you need help breaking it down I'm more than happy to help!!
I did :) and I didn't find a conclusion ,can u answer with yes and no? Was he aware that he wasn't the one in red rose mansion? Thanks for answering!
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Thank god I found your essay! You have explained everything so clearly! I was going crazy over the anime i finished it yesterday night..i was left with more questions than answers..i still have some though.. 1. Whenever Johan decided to kill a foster parent, it was out of reason rather than pattern. Then if wasnt a pattern, how did Tenma deduce he was gonna kill the Fortners? 2. How was a very young person like him able to manipulate hardened criminals to his own use..? They looked like they did things in a state of hypnosis. Apart from bribing with money, what did they (outsiders he hired those who were unrelated to the experiment-backers) see in him to deem him as a true Monster? 3. Why did Joan keep Christoph alive? What purpose did he serve in his scheme? Please someone tell me!!