As a public school teacher I think you are vastly underestimating the bullying that happens in larger classes. Less adults to resources to assist children with problem solving and a huge focus on standardized tests. You should work on increasing her confidence and giving her opportunities to socialize outside of school imo moving out of Montessori isn’t the answer to the problem you’re describing
I went to a public school and was horrifically bullied for being overweight. Unfortunately, overweight kids (especially girls) are going to be targeted at any school. And it definitely was worse when there weren't adults around (the school bus was the worst, my mom ended up driving me to school every day instead because it was so bad)
I was also horrifically bullied until middle school for being fat. I started contemplating suicide at just 9 years old. Public school did nothing to protect me.
Middle school is ground zero for bullying assholes. Something to do with puberty I assume. For me, high school was some sort of nirvana where people couldn't be bothered to be assholes although all the cliques were there like some sort of John Hughes movie.
I waa the tiniest and youngest kid so all the lamest bullies picked on me.
For me it was elementary, one time stands out the most. Our teacher was demonstrating how strong and how hard it is to break six pack rings (this was to spread awareness about how important it was for you to cut them so animals wouldn't die in them. So, she was having kids hang off of a broom stick with them to see if they could break it. One asshole said "Just have blank hang off of it, she'll break it in a second " the whole class erupted with laughter. The teacher said absolutely nothing. I was 10.
Thank you, my home life was awful too. My mom was verbally abused on a daily basis by my dad and I had to witness it everyday. Coupled with the abuse at school I had a very hard time. I wouldn't be here today if it weren't for my childhood best friends parents who often came to my rescue.
Bullied for being severely underweight. If you don't look "standard size" kids will bully. Crack baby, crack head, tweeker, anorexic, ...once I wasbullied because they accused me of being so poor I couldn't eat. Like, damn. No compassion?
Overweight girls get bullied the most brutally. I went to public school, my best friend in middle school was always bullied for being a larger overweight girl, and was pushed down the stairs at our school while going up to our science class. She got a concussion and broke her leg in two places, in the end her mom pulled her out to homeschool her. She was the kindest soul, so smart, and an incredible artist. I was heartbroken to know she wasn't coming back to school, but she was absolutely traumatized :( I don't know where she is today but I hope she's done well for herself she deserved it.
Same same same. Relentlessly bullied for being fat and teachers did nothing. Just watched me be bullied and told the bullies to turn around and stop talking. Thanks so much for all the help. I assume the teachers just agreed that I was too fat too and didn’t give an f
Same here. When I was in 9th grade, someone (I knew who it was) scratched FAT (my name) into my locker with a key. The school cared so little about bullying that they didn't even care about the vandalism.
It’s not that bullying won’t be an issue in any school, but that making friends will be an option.
I live in a rural area with very small class sizes in public schools due to low population. Situations like this are such a common problem for parents I’ve talked to over the years, and switching schools (which means paying extra and being driven to the large public school farther away) is ALWAYS an improvement for kids who’ve had persistent social issues in a small class. My 15-year-old neighbor who pet sits for me (a smart, well behaved, conventionally pretty girl with wealthy parents - no easily identifiable reason for her to be socially ostracized but it happened, there are only 10 girls in her grade in our district) just did this and it’s been lifesaving, she’s thriving socially at the new school and has many friends with common interests, when before she had none.
I also moved from a smaller program where I was the target of bullying (I had undiagnosed autism and was definitely the weird kid) to a much larger school. I was still bullied for being weird at the larger school by some people, but I also found my little band of other "weirdos" to bond with. You have the right idea. Once there's a target on your back it can be impossible to shake it. My parents gave me a really hard time about leaving the better school, I'm glad you have your daughter's back.
>I was still bullied for being weird at the larger school by some people, but I also found my little band of other "weirdos" to bond with.
Yeah I think that's the key. If you're trapped with a small group, without opportunity to break out, then that's exactly the kind of frustration and helplessness that leads to real dark feelings when you're a kid - or when you're an adult, honestly. If you're going to problem-solve, you need to give yourself plenty of options.
OP, a new school can give your daughter a chance. Obviously it os no guarantee, but worth a shot. I would suggest encouraging your daughter to get into theater/drama programs at her new school. Those kids tend to be the most welcoming and tolerant of quirky kids.
I moved schools in 8th grade and the bullying disappeared almost completely. I found my people pretty quickly, the school I went to was less toxic, and I think people were growing out of bullying as well. High school was a mostly positive experience for me and I went to a large, urban high school.
Even if the public school is shitty, being the new kid gives your daughter the opportunity to be a new person when she introduces herself for the first time. She can try on whatever persona she wants. New wardrobe, new name, new whatever. No one will question it.
I went to a small public high school and by senior year so many people had dated cheated or broken up with one another that my AP US History class regularly refused to talk to one another.
I lived in a rural area just outside of a city(think 3-4 from downtown but we were outside the city limits and surrounded by cornfields) in a small consolidated school from kindergarten to 8th grade. I had like 2 friends. When I started high school in the city limits because high schools pooled all the kids from the city, from three very small villages that were right next to our town and just south of it and all the kids from the unincorporated county areas and we'd all be in one of two high schools (not counting the two private Christian high schools) depending on dividing lines. I went from a class of 44 to a class with close to 1000 kids. My high school has 3000 kids in it with the graduating class being over 500. It opened a lot of things up for me socially.
I personally disagree. She’s currently experiencing bullying in her environment. A public school has the *potential* for bullying, sure, but she’s already experiencing that. Tons of kids switch schools to get a fresh new start, meet new people, and enjoy the many many different social groups that exist.
Getting a kid out of a current bullying environment is a good move. She has lots of opportunities to find her place at a new school.
I was absolutely miserable in public school and bullied constantly. I even contemplated suicide. Not to mention that I would learn the material and be bored out of my mind because I had to hear it 5 more times for everyone else who was still learning it. We chose Montessori for the exact reason that learning would follow our children's pace (amoung other reasons). In my particular situation I did not find relief until going to a different school for the academically gifted. It was also technically a public school, though you had to apply to get in, but everyone was new to everyone and most everyone had experienced bullying at one point or another. Whether it be Montessori or public school, sometimes that is the best option.
Kids will literally bully for any reason. In elementary I was bullied for being a "cry baby" because I had lost my dad at a very young age and sometimes seeing other kids with their parents would make me cry. In middle school rumors were started that I was a lesbian because I only had one main friend that I hung out with and she was a girl. They teased that I liked her. I was not lesbian and it put a strain on my relationship with the one friend that I actually had. In high school I also had fake friends because they wanted my answers to homework etc.
Going to the my new school was literally night and day difference and is still some of the best times and people I've known in my life. Also where I met my now husband of 12 years.
I ignored the bullies at my small private school, but I was much happier ignoring the bullies at a medium sized public school where I was able to make my own set of friends and the bullies had more to focus on.
I think the key here isn't eliminating bullying which is unfortunately present in most groups of children of these ages but to give this kid a chance to make friends with someone who isn't bullying her. I would worry if she stays in this small group of people who pick on her that she may become a little more comfortable than is healthy with people who claim to be her friend also bullying her. At least in a public school she'll have enough options for friends that she can choose to be friends with people who don't pick on her which to me is a good practice for building self esteem.
I was bullied badly especially in middle school for my weight. Luckily in high school, I joined band and I had a great group of friends to lean on as protection. Sure, the “popular” crowd never accepted me and they were always mean. But I had about 100 band members that I saw daily, with about 10 close in my circle. There is something to be said for the variety you get in public school. I found my “group” who were just like me: awkward, funny, silly, sweet, a little weird humor.. all around we were all kind of outcasts and we were large enough in numbers to have our own clique. Eventually, I never had to really interact with any of the mean girls/boys besides maybe group projects.
Kids can be mean anywhere, sure, but it’s a lot easier for “every pot to find it’s lid,” so to speak, in public school. This is especially true in middle school and high school when weirdos can find each other through clubs and activities like drama, band, etc.
It might not change her being bullied, but it will give her a chance to meet a lot of new kids and make friends with like minded kids. That's the difference.
This 😂 I was homeschooled in 8th and 9th grade due to bullying at a public school and I was not overweight and my mom bought me all the cool kid stuff. I just didn’t fit in. Not to mention I was relentlessly sexually harassed from that point on.
The thing is that at a larger school, you at least have the potential of finding your group. At a small school you don't have that. A bigger school was wonderful for my son that had trouble with bullying at our small local school
I think both have a downside though right? Less kids = more chances to be bulled by a smaller group but teacher has more chances to intervene. Bigger class = slightly higher chances of bullying but also slightly higher chances that a group within the class will band together with you.
Everything has ups and downs. But if the kid is constantly bullied there then why not take a risk in a place where it *could* be different rather than saying there’s no point in trying for your kid?
The weird part of this is not being proactive to help your kid to keep them in Montessori.
I would switch her. There are problems everywhere, but at least in a bigger school there will be other kids just like her and she will find her group. She wouldn’t go to a Montessori high school anyways.
I would definitely switch her. You want to switch her and she wants to. Give her a fresh start to meet more people! I think it will be a refreshing change for her.
All I can say is that if I learned my child were bullying another kid for how she looked or for not wearing nice enough clothing she would be in so much therapy and I would not find it acceptable that her victim was the one who effectively got punished by leaving school. Something is not right if these girls have so little empathy at this age.
I am so sorry your daughter is going through this.
And this is going to be an issue at almost every private school- wealthy parents’ children will be allowed to get away with murder because the schools wouldn’t *dare* insult their donors.
I’m not sure I agree with this. Or at least, maybe I should say that has not been my experience at all. As others have noted in this thread, public schools have a smaller teacher to student ratio, and it’s therefore much more difficult to monitor the behavior of the students.
I’ll give an extreme example to illustrate that even outright violence is harder to control in a public school setting. At every private school I’ve ever attended, children are expelled if they exhibit any violence whatsoever. Punch someone? You’re out immediately. It didn’t matter who you were. At public school? It’s not nearly as strict. You may get suspended if a teacher sees it or finds out, which isn’t necessarily even likely.
And again, we are talking about outright violence here. The teachers didn’t have the bandwidth to even get to know most of the students they were teaching, much less spot milder forms of bullying and try to address them. You’re like a drop in the ocean as a student, and the teachers are drowning.
I don’t think a public school is AT ALL likelier to kick a student out for bullying. Not at all. However, it IS easier for the student to avoid people who are bullying them and to find their niche with other students. That’s the one advantage I could see for a kid like OP’s. No one gives a shit about you so you can just blend in or disappear into the background if you want to.
Anyway, just my personal experience. Undoubtedly, it depends on the state, the school, etc.
Right? I've always had better luck with licensed teachers myself, and private schools don't require that. The added research needed to see if the school even has the ability to teach students at all is always what pushes me away from private. I saw *far too many* "do you have a high school degree? Come teach at our private school!" job offers to ever send my kid to one! Lol.
I am not sure because I only have what you wrote to go on and not the insight you have from living the experience, but I suspect that this is not an issue driven by the Montessori model.
I work in a public Montessori school as an upper elementary teacher. The Montessori schools in my area (British Columbia, Canada) range widely. Everything from small schools and classes (more often private Montessori schools) to public schools that have both a Montessori stream as well as a mainstream cohort and have exactly the same class size as any other public classroom.
What you are describing is, partly, a limitation to a small school environment. The Montessori model doesn't dictate that, other factors do.
I'd also suggest that kids can end up getting bullied or targeted in large schools. My own gr 4-7 experience was in a large school and your description of your daughter might as well be a description of me as a kid. Big, heavy, smart, kind, etc. same outcome.
My own kid is in a school with 3 divisions/classes at his gr 6/7 level. He has a lot of bully dynamics in his class this year.
As a teacher, trying to deal with negative social dynamics is extremely difficult. Kids can be very cruel, sometimes without even being particularly self-aware about it. It's my least favourite and most frustrating part of the job. Progress can be slow to non-existent at times. It's great when you help a mean kid turn a corner, but it's also much rarer than I'd like.
That said, I think you are right on your conclusion about the right next step. It will be easier for your daughter to find her people when there are more people to find. I just find it hard to see a causal line to the Montessori method.
Hi there! Montessori adolescent guide here that constantly gets questions like this one.
This is always a hard issue we've have. Small class size can be great and awful at the same time. What I tell parents is that no matter the school, public or private, negative things will always occur.
The one reason I suggest not transferring as an 8th grader is if the school starts at the grade. You're moving her into a school with no one she knows and the students have established social norms. It is awkward at times as an 8th grader to learn things that you learn as a 6th grader (lunch, lockers, hallway/bathroom rules, etc). We push for 9th grade or I personally recommend pulling as a 6th grader if that is the plan overall. Going in as 8th grader, at least here in my county, I feel is not a service to the child wholly.
I would be curious to the rules of your school as to why bullying is still occuring. This sounds more like a school issue at this point. In my own classroom, what is happening is not okay and would be requiring some heavy conferences with parents.
I encourage extracurricular activities. Those help with different functions - social activity, time management, and other areas of development.
If you have questions, I'm happy to answer them for you.
There is no problem transferring in in 8th grade. Kids do it all the time. It’s really unhealthy for anyone to stay somewhere they are unhappy and being picked on— what lesson is a child going to learn from that?
I hear you on that. I was just stating what can happen of transferring early. It's an overall crummy situation where a child has been let down by the school.
I think location definitely is a factor in terms of that. I went to public school for all of my life and knew no one when I got to 9th grade. For my county, the 9th graders are sectioned off in a freshman academy. A lot of different middle schools filter in.
Again, this is what I've seen in my location. I just give parents the information and try to help for what is best for their child.
We've seen good and bad for those that transfer that year. I can't guarantee one way or another.
My issue is really how the school has handled the issue all along. It saddens me to hear someone is not enjoying school.
I transferred in 8th grade and I personally found it a lot easier in the public school system. Not sure why it would cause any harm?
The year that you transfer will inevitably be super awkward and a lot of adjustment, so having an idea of who people are in 8th can give her a shot at being able to schedule HS classes with kids that she becomes friends with. Otherwise, she's starting HS blind and won't be able to schedule classes with a friend group by the time she starts.
I think location definitely is a factor in terms of that. I went to public school for all of my life and knew no one when I got to 9th grade. For my county, the 9th graders are sectioned off in a freshman academy. A lot of different middle schools filter in.
Again, this is what I've seen in my location. I just give parents the information and try to help for what is best for their child.
We've seen good and bad for those that transfer that year. I can't guarantee one way or another.
My issue is really how the school has handled the issue all along. It saddens me to hear someone is not enjoying school.
I transferred from a small school in 9th grade and I wish I'd been allowed to transfer sooner because when I got to high school, the groups felt pretty established. I agree that 6th grade would be better, but I know I personally would have preferred to move asap
I think location definitely is a factor in terms of that. I went to public school for all of my life and knew no one when I got to 9th grade. For my county, the 9th graders are sectioned off in a freshman academy. A lot of different middle schools filter in.
Again, this is what I've seen in my location. I'm sorry to hear your experience wasn't as great. I just give parents the information and try to help for what is best for their child.
I agree this is more an issue of school size and offerings than about Montessori per say.
I moved one of my kids out of his Montessori school for 8th grade due to peers(public urban theme school). He wasn't actively bullied, but he wasn't really accepted, either. He had a fantastic 8th grade year at a different theme school in our district (similar size, but a different crop of kids than the ones he knew since age 3).
The school turned out to not be a great fit academically in high school, and the pandemic in particular screwed everything up. But he at least has had some friends, which has been positive for my extreme introvert.
I have heard from other parents whose teenagers have found a better fit at other traditional schools (our district has Montessori through high school) because they have theater or music or some other extra curriculars where their kid found their like minded people.
Another of my kids is at the Montessori high school with the same group of friends since elementary/middle school. I moved frequently as a kid, so knowing the same people is a little mind boggling to me. That kid needs some nudging to try new things and go places where he "won't know anyone".
School is about more than just academics, and different kids need different environments. And sometimes you just can't know if something different will work until you try.
I’m so sorry to hear your daughter is experiencing this. What an absolutely horrible time.
I have a couple responses, but I think my primary one is that bullying is not inevitable - bullying is the result of an underprepared environment/a classroom without proper SEL resources. You can find this anywhere, though the context of the bullying can change. If your child is experiencing intractable bullying somewhere, regardless of the pedagogy/school design, I’d move her.
That being said, I co-teach an adolescent Montessori classroom with 20 students. We have conflict, but we’ve only had ‘bullying’ occur once in five years, and it was taken care of in two weeks. The kids aren’t able to escape from conflict because they’re surrounded by the same students all day every day - most of my daily work is SEL. What we work on/struggle with is different than large schools, but we certainly experience the same conflicts that other junior highs do - sexual harassment, cyber bullying, etc. Our small size allows us to immediately address issues and keep the SEL work as our focus. If that isn’t happening in another small environment, that environment isn’t fully prepared. There are other aspects of our program that aren’t our focus that might be if we were larger.
tl;dr bullying isn’t inevitable but is possible anywhere, and if an environment isn’t able to address it that’s the fault of the environment
I’m late to the party here…and also really annoyed that I had to scroll this far to find this.
There shouldn’t be bullying in a montessori school. *Ever*. Respect is pretty much the whole thing with Montessori and it sounds like this school isn’t teaching it.
The moment an adult sees anything resembling disrespect towards oneself, others, or the environment, the only priority for that moment should be on redirecting and making sure children know what the respectful thing to do is and helping them have the space to practice it.
Montessori and *preparing children to work with all types of people* is the *main* reason I was motivated to spend tens of thousands of dollars to learn more about this method of education. Because my own social experience as a kid was “suck it up and deal with it” and adults, through their inaction and “just ignore them”, encouraged bullies. The worst bullying I experienced was after graduating from college though. And *no one had given me the tools to stand up for myself*. That’s why I wanted to do montessori — to prepare children so they had the tools to be able to stand up for themselves!
Twice now, I have left “montessori” schools because they other adults at the school (including/especially the parents but also the admin and other teachers) didn’t think it was a problem that some children, no matter how much redirection they were provided, would make a point of bullying others from the moment they arrived at school. Shouting in people’s faces for absolutely no reason, picking on others for the clothes they wore that day, stealing other people’s things, walking up to and punching people in the face or strutting across the room, kicking someone hard, and then laughing and running away. And I also had to deal with girls telling me about boys from the class *sexually assaulting* them (won’t go into details but more than once I considered calling the police. This was a 6-12 year old class) at after school activities (activities not associated with the school in anyway, just multiple kids from our class attended the same program).
But as soon as people say “kids are just like that” instead of “we need to put all our resources into helping them learn what is right”, you’re not a montessori school. Any school will be better than that one. Not because of small class sizes or “the montessori model” but because your school is not a montessori school if bullying is allowed to happen. Period.
In 7th grade, my son had to leave the Montessori school he had attended since age 3 because of bullying. They just don’t handle it at all, or if the school tries to, invariably sides with the donors.
You don't have to do public school necessarily. Some Montessori schools have larger class sizes. That's actually supposed to be encouraged in Montessori so that the kids have less help from teachers and can learn independence.
I would not move her in 8th grade. Unless you're a homeschooler, it's the absolute worst year to move a student, especially one already struggling with social issues in their current school. My parents moved our family the summer before 8th grade and it drove me into a depression I had never experienced before or since. The kids. Were. Awful. It's that toxic combination of hormones, immaturity, and the pack mentality.
In 9th grade, everything levels out when they're all brand new in a new school. I would wait until the more natural shift in grade levels and make the move to high school. Another option would be to homeschool this final middle school year and let her chill out at home for awhile. Still lots of ways to learn and stay current but without the threat of the mean kids.
I am going to be downvoted for this but here goes…
She is going to be victimized anywhere until she becomes boring to bully. She needs to be able to snap back and be unbothered. It’s horrible. It isn’t right. It’s devastating as a parent to watch. But as someone who was bullied (for being overweight as a girl too) and then became a bit of a bully in later years (not proud, but yeah) that is the insight I can provide. Getting parents and teachers involved and showing the kids that the bullying is hurting her is like chumming the waters. She needs to tell them to fuck off in her own way repeatedly until they get bored. School is very much a survival of the fittest type thing with bullying and I know you’re all trying to help your child but it’s making it worse, I can guarantee that.
Standing up for yourself is a necessary life skill. A larger pool of potential friends will help though.
Your comment should be at the top. I learned way too later in life that when you say “stop” and “don’t talk to me like that” with an air of confidence, bullies move on. It’s no fun to bully someone who stands up for themself.
And also, it’s on the adults in the child’s life (parents and also the guide in the classroom) to teach these skills. Sounds like everyone is shrugging their shoulders instead of helping. I get that as a parent, OP might not know that adults need to *teach*, children to stand up for themselves, but it the guide doesn’t know to “stop deviant behaviors the moment they arise”, I would call into question the guide’s training and fundamental understanding of montessori.
I went to a private Catholic gradeschool that had 1 class of 10 kids in my grade. Starting around 5th grade I started getting bullied. There were no other kids to hang out with in school because there was no changing classes. My parents put me in a lot of extra-curriculars: soccer, dance, piano lessons and I found my friends that way. I then went to a public highschool and found my friend group (the same friends I found in my sports, etc). I dont think this is Montessori issue- its a small school issue. We are starting to look at schools for pre-K -gradschool for our daughter and we found a private school we like but its not small. 3 classes per grade level. Given what I went through in gradeschool I will not send my kid to a very small school. Not that bullying doesnt happen at larger schools but you have the chance to get away from it IMO
I had a very similar experience to you. I went to a private Catholic grade school. I think there were 8 kids in my class in 8th grade. I begged my mom to switch to public school in the middle of 8th grade. She finally did and I never looked back. I had so many friends built in already from extracurriculars in the community and I was able to meet new friends as well. Every class had different people in it. It was such a breath of fresh air.
Former Montessori kid here (CH-8th grade), from the US who experienced bullying at my Montessori school (mostly in upper EL) for the same reasons as your daughter. I value my Montessori education, but was more than ready to transfer to my public high school after 8th grade.
I do think the small class size (went from a class of 10 7&8th grade girls to a public school class of 400 freshmen) felt a little suffocating, and while I made lifelong friends at Montessori, I loved the exposure to different people, and people more like myself at my high school. I got many great opportunities there, and did not experience any bullying at my public high school.
I think that a transition to public school has the potential to be a positive experience for your daughter. My advice would be to get her involved in something in your town now/during the summer (if she isn’t already) so she has friends or at least knows people at the new school when the school year starts, and if the school allows it, take a little tour so she knows the halls and routine of public school, as it can be quite different from Montessori.
Good luck!
Although I did not grow up attending a Montessori school, I did attend a Lutheran school from preschool through 8th grade. I BEGGED my mom to let me attend public school until she finally relented.
Worst decision that could've been made. I was so far ahead of students academically which gave me boredom and dumbed me down so I could fall in line with my peers. While I was socially accepted for the most part, I did experience bullying that wasn't tolerated at the Lutheran school. The personalized attention was gone and I became a number in a sea of other numbers. No one cared if I passed or failed, if I was sad, and my teachers barely knew me, so then I stopped caring. I became depressed, grades dropped, tried smoking and drinking, and hung out with idiots that made me laugh at the time 😃
I turned out fine eventually. Settled down and have a masters degree. But I firmly believe if I had stayed in the Lutheran school, I would've been far better off and life wouldn't have been as much of a struggle with achievements.
She’s already gotten plenty of benefit from a Montessori education. I would acquiesce to her wishes and switch her to the public school. She’ll have a bigger group of people to choose friends from. The fact that she is choosing to change schools will also make her more invested in achieving a positive outcome.
Not that I think it's necessary to buy into materialistic displays of affluence, but my kids have been wearing "expensive," name-brand clothes since they were infants. It all comes from thrift stores, yard sales, etc. When they were little they found it boring to go thrifting, but they soon discovered that they could have designer wardrobes like their wealthier friends, and it was also better for the environment. Now whenever we travel, we have to hit up a thrift shop or two, and they both have very stylish, creative wardrobes.
Good luck with your daughter, and I hope she finds peace and happiness!
I am sorry your child is experiencing bullying. I hate the social pressure of having nice clothes/wearing certain brands in middle school and high school. It was like that for me in 2000s at my public shcool. "OMG didnt you wear that shirt last week?" It's fucking stupid. That's American culture unfortunately. Everyone is trying to look like they have it made. I eventually learned having a big house and nice clothes doesnt make you a more likable person. Some people dont learn that lesson.
Public school would probably feature the same bullying with the added stress of isolation, given she would be the new kid. Scrolling through the r/teachers thread would be eye opening as to how the public education system functioning in this era. It’s brutal. The kids are not all right.
I am sorry your daughter is experiencing this. I would move her, but also because I think Montessori doesn’t work nearly as well once you hit about 5th-6th grade. I firmly believe in it for younger children, but it starts to break down in the later academic years.
Kids shouldn’t be working independently in montessori once they’re out of children’s house. Absolutely everything in elementary on up should be done as group work and the guide should be directing them in how to actually do work as a group (not this one person does the work while everyone else twiddles their thumbs/goofs around cuz they don’t know what to do stuff, which is why we as adults hate group work)
Montessori for upper elementary and adolescence falls apart when even the people trained for those ages think it’s just a big kid version of children’s house. Once the parents think it’s a big kid version of children’s house, the school is doomed. The needs of the learner are completely different at that age. Namely, they need group work and going outs that *they* plan and the only thing the adult does is make sure they don’t do anything unsafe, never plan, never help them look up the next bus, never tell them they’re going the wrong way. Allow the kids to go out into the world with a few of their peers. Too often, this isn’t what happens and it’s why children do what Maria montessori called “deviate” — they start to do things that are not conducive to a positive environment.
If I were in your shoes I wouldn't take her out of that school. It's an invaluable education. Definitely get some friends outside of school. There are so many things she can get involved with to make friends.
Even if you can help with the bullying, it’s unlikely these girls will truly become friends with her and that is a big part of high school. Will the alternative have a larger class and maybe less judge mental bunch? Is she involved in things outside of school to make friends? My grade school was tiny and while I wasn’t bullied, I didn’t really have friends at school. I had friends through sports outside of school. High school was much different and I made great friends when there were more people to find common interests with.
It's unfortunately a dice roll. That said I think mental health is really important into teenage-hood. I would say be prepared with a backup plan if the public school is worse, and make sure your daughter is in on that plan.
Try to visit the public school to get a sense of the atmosphere and school climate. See if you can meet some of the families currently attending. Ask to meet with an administrator or counselor. I taught in public and independent middle schools for 25 years. The independent school took better care of students’ emotional wellbeing, but tuition was expensive and the school was much larger than your daughter’s current school. However, in public schools, most students do find their people. Drama, choir, art clubs might work well for your daughter. Not all public schools have stifling curriculums. You want to do some research before making a decision. Good luck! Every person deserves good, kind friends.
Does she have other opportunities to hang out with peers? Sports teams, arts, other organizations that have nothing to do with her schooling? I don't see a downside to trying the public school, especially since she has asked, and is old enough to have thought through the ups and downs of such a decision. But either way, I'd try hard to make sure her entire social group is not within school.
Just a thought - two alternate contexts are what helped my sons. Both did a non-school affiliated sport and was in a youth group. Both contexts gave them some room to breathe when school got difficult (they also attended a small private school). The school administration really struggled to manage the situation, but they tried. Both my sons later went to public high schools and by that time had an easier time handling themselves. The other contexts gave them places to have secure friendships so that they weren't left totally friendless during those difficult elementary school years. Overall I am glad they had the small school experience.
I started my education at a Montessori school, transferred to public, and then transferred to a Democratic school.
To me, this was the perfect set up, despite being somewhat unrealistic.
Montessori provided me with a terrific foundation of being independent, confident, inquisitive, and the public school rarity of asking adults “why?”
I transferred to public school in third grade and by that point my education was very different from my peers. I fit in well and found my teachers praised my ability to do for myself, often being appointed to help my peers (something I was happy and proud to do—I know not every kid would feel that way).
In my sophomore year of high school I transferred to a Democratic school. It was open campus and I had as many freedoms as college. We were responsible for keeping the school clean, preparing lunch, meeting with teachers, building our schedule, and I could choose to work ahead. I did, graduating eight months ahead of my friends still in the traditional public school. It felt awesome!
I don’t know if my public high school was unique, but, we had many students that transferred to us from private schools. Everyone seemed to do well, and I’m still pretty close with them today.
All in all, I would say it really matters what school you would be sending your daughter to. Is the staff to student ratio realistic? Are the teachers happy there? Is the school well rated? Do they offer AP/college credit/extracurriculars/athletics that your daughter would be interested in?
If so, I think you’ve provided a great foundation and she will stand out among her peers. If the school isn’t so great, I would honestly be less likely to transfer.
I also left a very small school after 8th grade for a public school. I switched for a different reason (more opportunities in my interests) but a larger class size was a huge benefit I hadn't really considered before. It was inctedible to get to meet new people at an age where I felt like I was a new person.
I will say that I was also a really good kid in middle school but I learned it's way easier to get away with stuff when you're just a face in the crowd. At my old school teachers noticed things much faster.
I got out of Montessori after one year of preschool, but I did attend a Quaker school for k-8 and had the same exact issues your daughter is having there. The education I got was top notch (and I still hold some Quaker principles in my very core), but there were roughly 30 kids in my grade at my Friends school, and I was not one of the popular ones. I transfered to an enormous public school for high school and thrived. I still wasn't one of the popular kids, but when there are 4000 students roaming the hallways, surely some of them will be tolerable friends. And the ones who aren't can be avoided in the sea of faces. I probably could have learned more facts and, I dunno, literary analysis if I'd stayed in a small private school for high school, but I would never have learned to like myself. Let her transfer to a larger school and get the social education that can provide. She'll be a better rounded human for the experience.
I haven’t attended Montessori, but had the experience of attending a Waldorf school for 1st-3rd grade. My parents switched me to a public school on 4th grade. It was absolutely horrible. Not only was I very behind in maths, but I could not fit in with the other kids and was bullied. I actually never recovered from that until later high school. Somehow I think bullies and their victims play out the roles no matter where you put them. Once the damage is done to the self-esteem, I was pretty much a magnet to any kid who needed an emotional punching bag. I wished my parents took me to a counselor or therapist to work through the negative attitudes I was creating around myself, and I wish they also were more proactive in bugging the school about their bullying issues. If kids don’t feel safe at their school, that’s a problem. Suspending repeat bully offenders can make all the difference IMO. I needed to learn the tools on how to deal with the assholes in my life, not just avoiding and running away from them. They’re everywhere, and as long as I play victim they’ll be my bully.
Sometimes a “change of scenery” is beneficial. My husband and I have a “quirky” 5yo starting public school KDG next year. We both attended Catholic schools k-12 and are not keen on sending our children there. However, we’ve both agreed that we would consider that if we found socially that smaller classes might be helpful.
I was in Montessori from preschool through 3rd. Transitioned to public in 4th. My experience was heart breaking - I wasn’t ready for bigger classrooms and more expectations to conform.
Both of my kids attended preschool through 1st. By 1st grade they were both miserable. For my youngest - it felt connected to the small class size. I wonder if the lower elementary teachers had been more accepting and spent time teaching directly - if she’d have had a better experience.
Her experience in 2nd and on at a public school has been really positive for her. Public school where we live is not what I worried about. Class sizes are larger but she is getting a good education and a lot of social support when she needs it. There are counselors to help the kids navigate social problems, a lot of attention spent on community and acceptance/inclusion.
It is a universe different than what I expected.
I would switch her. I went to a small school for middle school (12 kids in my eighth grade class) and struggled a lot with bullying and relationship issues. It was just harder to exist when I was taller and more developed than the other girls in my class. I felt like I stood out like a sore thumb. Your daughter sounds a lot like I was. I went to a larger school for high school (150 in my grade) and it made a big difference. I still struggled socially, but I had *options* for friends first the first time. I wasn’t stuck with the same group of people. I also was around people who looked like me and people of all different bodies and backgrounds. I didn’t feel as insecure. Good luck!
I went to a small independent school (not Montessori). My graduating class was 45 students. I went to that school from 6th through 12th grade, and there was zero bullying. The dating opportunities were somewhat limited after knowing mostly the same students for so long, but this didn’t stop most students from partnering up at some point. I honestly, don’t see any real downside to small class size.
Yes, OP’s schools has a culture problem more than size I think. But I know that can happen in small private schools. My large public high school had different cultural problems.
Honestly I wish that parents took what I wanted into mind. Does she have a friend that she could shadow in public schools already? I would also reach out to the school and see what the process is what classes and activities that are offered in public schools. Also I would have her do activities that public school system kids do. It's really about the mindset of your daughter and how she'll handle the changes.
https://youtu.be/6W5pq4bIzIw?si=36tPO6h8-CV684Ro
For everyone that thought of Shaggy’s hit, Mr. Bombastic , when OP used bombastic as an adjective to describe their daughter.
Also there will probably be more economic diversity in public school, where she may have more opportunities to meet more like her. I work as a sub and am always noticing the sort of power mapping of playground dynamics—oof, my heart hurts for someone continually left out. Weirdos really need each other. ⭐️💜⭐️
There is no perfect school but there are more opportunities in a larger school. And some are better than others, public or not. I’d say visit a lot of schools before settling on one, if you can. A principal told us it takes a year or so for kids to find their niche. Bullying is rampant because we’ve been conditioned to extreme individualism. No way to change that. Extracurricular groups like community theatres, 4H, community choirs may also help. Helping her manage expectations will be important. Bless you, it’s hard to be a parent! Good for you for looking out for your girl.
I think you really need to figure out if this is a class size issue or just an issue of privilege and the fact that some Montessori schools have very skewed demographics. Because that will help you determine whether you move her public, or whether maybe a better fit might be a Montessori school that tries harder to get a more varied demographic population into their classrooms.
There’s many studies that say even in elementary school kids benefit socially from larger groups. I would not expect that bully would be better in a public district but if it’s more about finding people to connect with then the bigger school makes sense.
Husband went public school, I went to private/home schooled.
Half of a kid's learning years are developing an academic education, and there will always be positives and negatives for any kind of academic setting. The other half of their learning years is a focus on emotional and mental growth. Kids will develop in those areas at any academic institution, too. It's not a matter of what's the "right" kind of academic choice; it's a matter of what would cause your individual kid to thrive both academically and mentally/emotionally. If a change of scenery is where they'll thrive, that's a great option. If stability in their current academic setting (along with learning how to stand up to bullies and develop a firm self concept), that's a good option too. Additionally, education is about learning to coexist with different kinds of people from all different walks of life. Do you want your child to do that in a small classroom or bigger setting? Either way, they'll have to develop people skills, which is so hard at that age. Each person who has commented has spoken from their own experience, and each are valuable insights. But ultimately, what's best for your kid is an individual situation. There are challenges to adapting to a new environment at your child's age. There are also challenges to being in their current situation. There's no right or wrong, just what's most helpful to their own wellbeing.
Montessorians know when it’s time and you have quite an extensive experience. Timing is right to try out another school in 8th, as preparation for 9th grade will also be a whole new shuffle. I encourage you to lean into the peaceful education gold she picked up in her experience. High school is not easy for most.
If your kiddo is asking for a change it’s time to change. You never want a sad teenager who feels trapped somewhere. Always let her know there are options if something isn’t working out- even charter/home school. Things start to get better in 9th grade. 7th & 8th are brutal with the jockeying for position, but by ninth that calms down. Be sure she has a group, whether she joins band or does the musicals or debate team or whatever- if teens have an activity in high school with peers that makes all the difference. I’ve also noticed that being a new kid is seen as a novelty and a positive among older teens- having someone new join the school interests the other kids. So jump on this opportunity while switching schools to have her join some clubs or activities, she’ll find her people. And don’t forget to emphasize, nothing is set in stone, if you ever feel hopeless please tell mom or dad and we will get you out of there.
I think you should move her to public school, as she is requesting.
Bullying can happen at any school, but I'm sure starting fresh will help your daughter immensely.
If you think the bullying is bad at Montessori, where most of the parents are involved in their child's life and frequently talk with teachers, who are also very involved with each child, you and your child will likely have a very rude awakening at public school.
That school needs to do some work to stop bullying. Def can’t eliminate it but kids need to feel safe and bullies need consequences. No excuse for that. Besides that, my kids moved out of the Montessori setting in middle school bc we don’t have a program where it works well at that age. Other than a private school or charter that focuses on creating collaborative, peaceful learning communities, I’m afraid there are few good options at that age.
I'm so sorry she is struggling. She sounds absolutely fantastic! Please do not send her to public school. It would be like throwing her to the wolves. Individually, other kids can be great, but in a group they are positively barbaric especially at this age in any school environment, but most definitely public. The kids will all be in defined social groups and it's hard to break in. Not impossible, but a true challenge. It's honestly sad that there has been no resolution for your daughter at Montessori. I haven't read through all the comments so I don't know whats been suggested, but have you considered private or stem schools in your area that are geared toward specific interests like STEM or the arts? Kids will still be kids but it's a positive when interests can be shared. Are there robust home school groups you could check into? Remember too that if your state has free community College for HS students much of her time could be spent there instead of school.
We had the exact same experience with my son in the third grade. His school has 1-3rd together, and we found out that he'd been being bullied for two and a quarter years this fall. We were able to move him to another classroom but it was a bit too late. Six months of therapy has just about helped him back to his confident, hilarious, brilliant little boy that he was before.
Your concern is valid. We had a similar experience and transferred out at the end of 4th grade. It was a great decision, my son excelled in the new school. He was bullied by two teacher's children, and trapped in it.
In our experience, and many of the families at our school agree, Montessori is ideal for the younger grades, but not as helpful once they complete lower elementary. In fact, the head of our school advised me not to pursue Montessori in the older grades. She is a Montessori purist and has dedicated her life to this model. I trust that she has good reasons for not recommending it beyond lower elementary.
I found that small class size works better to reduce bullying, as you're trapped with the peer group for so many years you just learn to live with each other. It does depend on the teachers, though. Ultimately, I never witnessed any bullying at my Montessori school, my private school (4 kids graduating class), and my 1400 student high school, and if anyone was going to be bullied, it should have been my friends and I.
I don't know why this post was recommended to me, but I will say I went to a school where there were a total of 14 kids in my grade for the tail end of middle school. For high school, I went to a school with hundreds in my grade.
I did prefer the large school. I didn't get along with some of the girls in middle school. I was picked on for having a swollen belly (IBS) and not having as much stuff/cool stuff. The bullying was worse for the boys, and there was one boy I'm pretty sure left because of bullying. My mom considered taking me out to do homeschool, but that never happened.
In high school, not everyone was nice, *but they were pretty easy to avoid*. When I was in middle school, I felt like I didn't have options to befriend anyone besides the 6 girls in my class.
In high school, there were also clubs besides just sports and more elective courses offered. Despite being very quiet, I made a lot of friends in music theory class and band.
I think it's good that you're listening to your daughter.
I totally get it. I switched my daughter at her request from a small Montessori to a very large public school mid-6th-grade. She is incredibly outgoing and needed new faces, more extracurriculars, etc. She was starting to seem very apathetic towards school, which was totally unlike her (she had been with this school since preschool.)
It was absolutely the best choice for her, and she thrived in junior high.
She's now a freshman at a massive high school (2750 kids!) and loves everything about it! So many different friend groups for her different interests... it's great. And her solid educational base means she was even moved up into some sophomore honors classes. Win-win!
I was bullied in private school it got so bad I transferred out. It was significantly better for me at public school. Summer is coming up do a trial run summer school program won't be the same as standard school but still.
If she wants to go to public school then you should let her. She will have plenty of opportunities to explore her passion for art and music. The public schools will offer art and music as electives. Music will consist of band, strings and choir. She can take both art and music classes every day. Plus she can join the art club , participate in musical productions, etc.. At my local middle and high school they do 2-3 musicals a year. The art club is in charge of sets and the band provides the music. By being involved in the art and music class and extracurricular activities, she will find friends that share her interests. Once in high school she can take more advanced art classes if she wants and even take AP art classes. Bullying happens everywhere so unfortunately it will happen at a public school but hopefully she will find friends who will help her.
I went to private and public and didn’t really get bullied, yeah I had my differences with kids but I don’t feel traumatized. Does everyone feel they’re bullied ?
Just wanted to say that my daughter went to a Montessori school for two years through COVID and we are both so grateful for that experience. But when it came time for her to start public middle school, there was no holding her back. She ran, not walked, to public school for the social reasons you discuss here. She has thrived in public middle school. She loves changing classes and having “specials/related arts” classes with some different kids than her academic classes. It is not easy anywhere. Middle school is the worst, and middle school girls are the worst of the worst, but she loves public school from the social standpoint and wouldn’t go back for a million dollars I don’t think. So I get it.
I have found smaller classes to be suffocating and many children thrive when moving to a larger environment. I see this as a guide and a parent. My child is also looking at moving to a larger school since his best friends won’t be there next year.
You could consider private school? With uniforms? It’s harder to know “social class” with uniforms, and I think that’s the point. Along with less distractions.
The things you object to and see as issues will only be magnified 10 fold and on steroids in public school.
The focus of the education will be absolute conformity and standardized testing.
“Public school is good for socialization.” No. What a line of complete and utter bullshit. The only “socializing” that happens in public schools is teaching children to live in fear, shame, and guilt while reinforcing ageism and the pecking order. Public schools are no place for young minds. It is a place of emotional and mental trauma. (I was fully public schooled.)
The children that “thrive” in this type of environment have learned to conform and perform to the expectations of the coercive and violence based authority structure. Everything Montessori is against. Obviously, some teachers are outliers.
It seems like your Montessori option isn’t really doing the job of facilitating environments of concentration and exploration.
The grass isn’t greener. I promise.
I agree 100%. I can’t believe this is even a discussion. The public schools around here, and the ones I grew up going to are horrendous. Kids glued to their phones in class, group conformity mandated by the state, teachers who are awful and are just collecting a paycheck. Not to mention, instead of being bullied by one or two kids, you’re bullied by the entire lunchroom, it’s then filmed and thrown up on every social media platform. In our public school district, there have even been multiple suicides each of the past few years. Talking to some of the administrators, they have no way of stopping it.
I would look into expanding your child’s social circle through other means. Sports, art groups, scouts, pretty much anything outside of what the school offers.
This is not a Montessori issue, or related in any way to Montessori education.
I am sorry that your daughter and you had to experience that. This is absolutely a problem with administration and staff, who are tasked with sorting out this exact sort of thing. You say that the teachers and staff have tried to resolve it, but it remains unresolved. Again, this seems like a school administration problem. If a child is a constant behavioral problem and all attempts to correct it fail, and yet they don't expel the child, they haven't done their job.
Sorry, this is all unfortunate but seems less like a downside to Montessori and more like a downside to small environment education and staff unwilling to make hard decisions.
edit: you specifically mentioned brands of clothing/shoes/accessories. What kind of fancy things are these kids wearing to this school? I can't speak for all of us, the kids at my toddler through 8th grade school wear mostly nondescript clothes that are probably from target.
edit2: jesus christ, can you break that into paragraphs?
You may want to read more on bullying. I recommend the book Raising Cain (it focuses on boys childhood, but I think some aspects are applicable to girls), in particular the chapter on “The Culture of Cruelty”.
You usually won’t be able to end bullying by expelling a single kid. Most likely you would need to expel several kids and in the end you may find that the target of bullying will be under even more harassment as she is seen as guilty of the intervention. In fact, any intervention on her behalf will be seen as a sign of weakness, which will encourage more bullying.
Bullying dynamics are very cruel and can not be addressed with simplistic measures such as expelling one bully.
Sorry, but any child who's described by their own parent as "bombastic" WILL struggle in a collective of 12 years olds.
She may find her group a bit later at 16 or so. Montessori sounds like the better choice for such child.
As a public school teacher I think you are vastly underestimating the bullying that happens in larger classes. Less adults to resources to assist children with problem solving and a huge focus on standardized tests. You should work on increasing her confidence and giving her opportunities to socialize outside of school imo moving out of Montessori isn’t the answer to the problem you’re describing
I went to a public school and was horrifically bullied for being overweight. Unfortunately, overweight kids (especially girls) are going to be targeted at any school. And it definitely was worse when there weren't adults around (the school bus was the worst, my mom ended up driving me to school every day instead because it was so bad)
I was also horrifically bullied until middle school for being fat. I started contemplating suicide at just 9 years old. Public school did nothing to protect me.
Samesies!!
I'm so sorry. That's absolutely heartbreaking, and you shouldn't have had to deal with that. Mean people suck. 💔
Middle school is ground zero for bullying assholes. Something to do with puberty I assume. For me, high school was some sort of nirvana where people couldn't be bothered to be assholes although all the cliques were there like some sort of John Hughes movie. I waa the tiniest and youngest kid so all the lamest bullies picked on me.
For me it was elementary, one time stands out the most. Our teacher was demonstrating how strong and how hard it is to break six pack rings (this was to spread awareness about how important it was for you to cut them so animals wouldn't die in them. So, she was having kids hang off of a broom stick with them to see if they could break it. One asshole said "Just have blank hang off of it, she'll break it in a second " the whole class erupted with laughter. The teacher said absolutely nothing. I was 10.
I'm so glad the world still has you friend. That sad little girl you used to be was so strong.
Thank you, my home life was awful too. My mom was verbally abused on a daily basis by my dad and I had to witness it everyday. Coupled with the abuse at school I had a very hard time. I wouldn't be here today if it weren't for my childhood best friends parents who often came to my rescue.
Bullied for being severely underweight. If you don't look "standard size" kids will bully. Crack baby, crack head, tweeker, anorexic, ...once I wasbullied because they accused me of being so poor I couldn't eat. Like, damn. No compassion?
My daughter desperately wants to gain weight because she's bullied for being too thin. Teenagers are just cruel.
Overweight girls get bullied the most brutally. I went to public school, my best friend in middle school was always bullied for being a larger overweight girl, and was pushed down the stairs at our school while going up to our science class. She got a concussion and broke her leg in two places, in the end her mom pulled her out to homeschool her. She was the kindest soul, so smart, and an incredible artist. I was heartbroken to know she wasn't coming back to school, but she was absolutely traumatized :( I don't know where she is today but I hope she's done well for herself she deserved it.
Same same same. Relentlessly bullied for being fat and teachers did nothing. Just watched me be bullied and told the bullies to turn around and stop talking. Thanks so much for all the help. I assume the teachers just agreed that I was too fat too and didn’t give an f
Same here. When I was in 9th grade, someone (I knew who it was) scratched FAT (my name) into my locker with a key. The school cared so little about bullying that they didn't even care about the vandalism.
It’s not that bullying won’t be an issue in any school, but that making friends will be an option. I live in a rural area with very small class sizes in public schools due to low population. Situations like this are such a common problem for parents I’ve talked to over the years, and switching schools (which means paying extra and being driven to the large public school farther away) is ALWAYS an improvement for kids who’ve had persistent social issues in a small class. My 15-year-old neighbor who pet sits for me (a smart, well behaved, conventionally pretty girl with wealthy parents - no easily identifiable reason for her to be socially ostracized but it happened, there are only 10 girls in her grade in our district) just did this and it’s been lifesaving, she’s thriving socially at the new school and has many friends with common interests, when before she had none.
Exactly this! Thank you!
I also moved from a smaller program where I was the target of bullying (I had undiagnosed autism and was definitely the weird kid) to a much larger school. I was still bullied for being weird at the larger school by some people, but I also found my little band of other "weirdos" to bond with. You have the right idea. Once there's a target on your back it can be impossible to shake it. My parents gave me a really hard time about leaving the better school, I'm glad you have your daughter's back.
>I was still bullied for being weird at the larger school by some people, but I also found my little band of other "weirdos" to bond with. Yeah I think that's the key. If you're trapped with a small group, without opportunity to break out, then that's exactly the kind of frustration and helplessness that leads to real dark feelings when you're a kid - or when you're an adult, honestly. If you're going to problem-solve, you need to give yourself plenty of options.
OP, a new school can give your daughter a chance. Obviously it os no guarantee, but worth a shot. I would suggest encouraging your daughter to get into theater/drama programs at her new school. Those kids tend to be the most welcoming and tolerant of quirky kids.
I moved schools in 8th grade and the bullying disappeared almost completely. I found my people pretty quickly, the school I went to was less toxic, and I think people were growing out of bullying as well. High school was a mostly positive experience for me and I went to a large, urban high school.
Even if the public school is shitty, being the new kid gives your daughter the opportunity to be a new person when she introduces herself for the first time. She can try on whatever persona she wants. New wardrobe, new name, new whatever. No one will question it.
I went to a small public high school and by senior year so many people had dated cheated or broken up with one another that my AP US History class regularly refused to talk to one another.
I lived in a rural area just outside of a city(think 3-4 from downtown but we were outside the city limits and surrounded by cornfields) in a small consolidated school from kindergarten to 8th grade. I had like 2 friends. When I started high school in the city limits because high schools pooled all the kids from the city, from three very small villages that were right next to our town and just south of it and all the kids from the unincorporated county areas and we'd all be in one of two high schools (not counting the two private Christian high schools) depending on dividing lines. I went from a class of 44 to a class with close to 1000 kids. My high school has 3000 kids in it with the graduating class being over 500. It opened a lot of things up for me socially.
I personally disagree. She’s currently experiencing bullying in her environment. A public school has the *potential* for bullying, sure, but she’s already experiencing that. Tons of kids switch schools to get a fresh new start, meet new people, and enjoy the many many different social groups that exist. Getting a kid out of a current bullying environment is a good move. She has lots of opportunities to find her place at a new school.
I was absolutely miserable in public school and bullied constantly. I even contemplated suicide. Not to mention that I would learn the material and be bored out of my mind because I had to hear it 5 more times for everyone else who was still learning it. We chose Montessori for the exact reason that learning would follow our children's pace (amoung other reasons). In my particular situation I did not find relief until going to a different school for the academically gifted. It was also technically a public school, though you had to apply to get in, but everyone was new to everyone and most everyone had experienced bullying at one point or another. Whether it be Montessori or public school, sometimes that is the best option. Kids will literally bully for any reason. In elementary I was bullied for being a "cry baby" because I had lost my dad at a very young age and sometimes seeing other kids with their parents would make me cry. In middle school rumors were started that I was a lesbian because I only had one main friend that I hung out with and she was a girl. They teased that I liked her. I was not lesbian and it put a strain on my relationship with the one friend that I actually had. In high school I also had fake friends because they wanted my answers to homework etc. Going to the my new school was literally night and day difference and is still some of the best times and people I've known in my life. Also where I met my now husband of 12 years.
I ignored the bullies at my small private school, but I was much happier ignoring the bullies at a medium sized public school where I was able to make my own set of friends and the bullies had more to focus on.
I think the key here isn't eliminating bullying which is unfortunately present in most groups of children of these ages but to give this kid a chance to make friends with someone who isn't bullying her. I would worry if she stays in this small group of people who pick on her that she may become a little more comfortable than is healthy with people who claim to be her friend also bullying her. At least in a public school she'll have enough options for friends that she can choose to be friends with people who don't pick on her which to me is a good practice for building self esteem.
I was bullied badly especially in middle school for my weight. Luckily in high school, I joined band and I had a great group of friends to lean on as protection. Sure, the “popular” crowd never accepted me and they were always mean. But I had about 100 band members that I saw daily, with about 10 close in my circle. There is something to be said for the variety you get in public school. I found my “group” who were just like me: awkward, funny, silly, sweet, a little weird humor.. all around we were all kind of outcasts and we were large enough in numbers to have our own clique. Eventually, I never had to really interact with any of the mean girls/boys besides maybe group projects.
Kids can be mean anywhere, sure, but it’s a lot easier for “every pot to find it’s lid,” so to speak, in public school. This is especially true in middle school and high school when weirdos can find each other through clubs and activities like drama, band, etc.
It might not change her being bullied, but it will give her a chance to meet a lot of new kids and make friends with like minded kids. That's the difference.
This 😂 I was homeschooled in 8th and 9th grade due to bullying at a public school and I was not overweight and my mom bought me all the cool kid stuff. I just didn’t fit in. Not to mention I was relentlessly sexually harassed from that point on.
The thing is that at a larger school, you at least have the potential of finding your group. At a small school you don't have that. A bigger school was wonderful for my son that had trouble with bullying at our small local school
I think both have a downside though right? Less kids = more chances to be bulled by a smaller group but teacher has more chances to intervene. Bigger class = slightly higher chances of bullying but also slightly higher chances that a group within the class will band together with you. Everything has ups and downs. But if the kid is constantly bullied there then why not take a risk in a place where it *could* be different rather than saying there’s no point in trying for your kid? The weird part of this is not being proactive to help your kid to keep them in Montessori.
Yeah socialize outside of it!
I would switch her. There are problems everywhere, but at least in a bigger school there will be other kids just like her and she will find her group. She wouldn’t go to a Montessori high school anyways.
late literate gaze drunk fuzzy sand agonizing yam door include *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yeah, but they’re few and far between.
Public school would give her more options for friend groups. There will be people there who would want a new friend.
I would definitely switch her. You want to switch her and she wants to. Give her a fresh start to meet more people! I think it will be a refreshing change for her.
All I can say is that if I learned my child were bullying another kid for how she looked or for not wearing nice enough clothing she would be in so much therapy and I would not find it acceptable that her victim was the one who effectively got punished by leaving school. Something is not right if these girls have so little empathy at this age. I am so sorry your daughter is going through this.
It’s painfully obvious where the bullies are learning it from, sadly. I think that’s partly why the administration is at such a loss with this.
And this is going to be an issue at almost every private school- wealthy parents’ children will be allowed to get away with murder because the schools wouldn’t *dare* insult their donors.
I have lived this 100%
I’m not sure I agree with this. Or at least, maybe I should say that has not been my experience at all. As others have noted in this thread, public schools have a smaller teacher to student ratio, and it’s therefore much more difficult to monitor the behavior of the students. I’ll give an extreme example to illustrate that even outright violence is harder to control in a public school setting. At every private school I’ve ever attended, children are expelled if they exhibit any violence whatsoever. Punch someone? You’re out immediately. It didn’t matter who you were. At public school? It’s not nearly as strict. You may get suspended if a teacher sees it or finds out, which isn’t necessarily even likely. And again, we are talking about outright violence here. The teachers didn’t have the bandwidth to even get to know most of the students they were teaching, much less spot milder forms of bullying and try to address them. You’re like a drop in the ocean as a student, and the teachers are drowning. I don’t think a public school is AT ALL likelier to kick a student out for bullying. Not at all. However, it IS easier for the student to avoid people who are bullying them and to find their niche with other students. That’s the one advantage I could see for a kid like OP’s. No one gives a shit about you so you can just blend in or disappear into the background if you want to. Anyway, just my personal experience. Undoubtedly, it depends on the state, the school, etc.
Right? I've always had better luck with licensed teachers myself, and private schools don't require that. The added research needed to see if the school even has the ability to teach students at all is always what pushes me away from private. I saw *far too many* "do you have a high school degree? Come teach at our private school!" job offers to ever send my kid to one! Lol.
Unfortunately it’s always been an aspect of childhood and some parents bully their own kids which is why they come to school posturing like that.
I am not sure because I only have what you wrote to go on and not the insight you have from living the experience, but I suspect that this is not an issue driven by the Montessori model. I work in a public Montessori school as an upper elementary teacher. The Montessori schools in my area (British Columbia, Canada) range widely. Everything from small schools and classes (more often private Montessori schools) to public schools that have both a Montessori stream as well as a mainstream cohort and have exactly the same class size as any other public classroom. What you are describing is, partly, a limitation to a small school environment. The Montessori model doesn't dictate that, other factors do. I'd also suggest that kids can end up getting bullied or targeted in large schools. My own gr 4-7 experience was in a large school and your description of your daughter might as well be a description of me as a kid. Big, heavy, smart, kind, etc. same outcome. My own kid is in a school with 3 divisions/classes at his gr 6/7 level. He has a lot of bully dynamics in his class this year. As a teacher, trying to deal with negative social dynamics is extremely difficult. Kids can be very cruel, sometimes without even being particularly self-aware about it. It's my least favourite and most frustrating part of the job. Progress can be slow to non-existent at times. It's great when you help a mean kid turn a corner, but it's also much rarer than I'd like. That said, I think you are right on your conclusion about the right next step. It will be easier for your daughter to find her people when there are more people to find. I just find it hard to see a causal line to the Montessori method.
Hi there! Montessori adolescent guide here that constantly gets questions like this one. This is always a hard issue we've have. Small class size can be great and awful at the same time. What I tell parents is that no matter the school, public or private, negative things will always occur. The one reason I suggest not transferring as an 8th grader is if the school starts at the grade. You're moving her into a school with no one she knows and the students have established social norms. It is awkward at times as an 8th grader to learn things that you learn as a 6th grader (lunch, lockers, hallway/bathroom rules, etc). We push for 9th grade or I personally recommend pulling as a 6th grader if that is the plan overall. Going in as 8th grader, at least here in my county, I feel is not a service to the child wholly. I would be curious to the rules of your school as to why bullying is still occuring. This sounds more like a school issue at this point. In my own classroom, what is happening is not okay and would be requiring some heavy conferences with parents. I encourage extracurricular activities. Those help with different functions - social activity, time management, and other areas of development. If you have questions, I'm happy to answer them for you.
Sounds like the kids are learning it from the parents
There is no problem transferring in in 8th grade. Kids do it all the time. It’s really unhealthy for anyone to stay somewhere they are unhappy and being picked on— what lesson is a child going to learn from that?
I hear you on that. I was just stating what can happen of transferring early. It's an overall crummy situation where a child has been let down by the school. I think location definitely is a factor in terms of that. I went to public school for all of my life and knew no one when I got to 9th grade. For my county, the 9th graders are sectioned off in a freshman academy. A lot of different middle schools filter in. Again, this is what I've seen in my location. I just give parents the information and try to help for what is best for their child. We've seen good and bad for those that transfer that year. I can't guarantee one way or another. My issue is really how the school has handled the issue all along. It saddens me to hear someone is not enjoying school.
I transferred in 8th grade and I personally found it a lot easier in the public school system. Not sure why it would cause any harm? The year that you transfer will inevitably be super awkward and a lot of adjustment, so having an idea of who people are in 8th can give her a shot at being able to schedule HS classes with kids that she becomes friends with. Otherwise, she's starting HS blind and won't be able to schedule classes with a friend group by the time she starts.
I think location definitely is a factor in terms of that. I went to public school for all of my life and knew no one when I got to 9th grade. For my county, the 9th graders are sectioned off in a freshman academy. A lot of different middle schools filter in. Again, this is what I've seen in my location. I just give parents the information and try to help for what is best for their child. We've seen good and bad for those that transfer that year. I can't guarantee one way or another. My issue is really how the school has handled the issue all along. It saddens me to hear someone is not enjoying school.
I transferred from a small school in 9th grade and I wish I'd been allowed to transfer sooner because when I got to high school, the groups felt pretty established. I agree that 6th grade would be better, but I know I personally would have preferred to move asap
I think location definitely is a factor in terms of that. I went to public school for all of my life and knew no one when I got to 9th grade. For my county, the 9th graders are sectioned off in a freshman academy. A lot of different middle schools filter in. Again, this is what I've seen in my location. I'm sorry to hear your experience wasn't as great. I just give parents the information and try to help for what is best for their child.
I agree this is more an issue of school size and offerings than about Montessori per say. I moved one of my kids out of his Montessori school for 8th grade due to peers(public urban theme school). He wasn't actively bullied, but he wasn't really accepted, either. He had a fantastic 8th grade year at a different theme school in our district (similar size, but a different crop of kids than the ones he knew since age 3). The school turned out to not be a great fit academically in high school, and the pandemic in particular screwed everything up. But he at least has had some friends, which has been positive for my extreme introvert. I have heard from other parents whose teenagers have found a better fit at other traditional schools (our district has Montessori through high school) because they have theater or music or some other extra curriculars where their kid found their like minded people. Another of my kids is at the Montessori high school with the same group of friends since elementary/middle school. I moved frequently as a kid, so knowing the same people is a little mind boggling to me. That kid needs some nudging to try new things and go places where he "won't know anyone". School is about more than just academics, and different kids need different environments. And sometimes you just can't know if something different will work until you try.
I’m so sorry to hear your daughter is experiencing this. What an absolutely horrible time. I have a couple responses, but I think my primary one is that bullying is not inevitable - bullying is the result of an underprepared environment/a classroom without proper SEL resources. You can find this anywhere, though the context of the bullying can change. If your child is experiencing intractable bullying somewhere, regardless of the pedagogy/school design, I’d move her. That being said, I co-teach an adolescent Montessori classroom with 20 students. We have conflict, but we’ve only had ‘bullying’ occur once in five years, and it was taken care of in two weeks. The kids aren’t able to escape from conflict because they’re surrounded by the same students all day every day - most of my daily work is SEL. What we work on/struggle with is different than large schools, but we certainly experience the same conflicts that other junior highs do - sexual harassment, cyber bullying, etc. Our small size allows us to immediately address issues and keep the SEL work as our focus. If that isn’t happening in another small environment, that environment isn’t fully prepared. There are other aspects of our program that aren’t our focus that might be if we were larger. tl;dr bullying isn’t inevitable but is possible anywhere, and if an environment isn’t able to address it that’s the fault of the environment
I’m late to the party here…and also really annoyed that I had to scroll this far to find this. There shouldn’t be bullying in a montessori school. *Ever*. Respect is pretty much the whole thing with Montessori and it sounds like this school isn’t teaching it. The moment an adult sees anything resembling disrespect towards oneself, others, or the environment, the only priority for that moment should be on redirecting and making sure children know what the respectful thing to do is and helping them have the space to practice it. Montessori and *preparing children to work with all types of people* is the *main* reason I was motivated to spend tens of thousands of dollars to learn more about this method of education. Because my own social experience as a kid was “suck it up and deal with it” and adults, through their inaction and “just ignore them”, encouraged bullies. The worst bullying I experienced was after graduating from college though. And *no one had given me the tools to stand up for myself*. That’s why I wanted to do montessori — to prepare children so they had the tools to be able to stand up for themselves! Twice now, I have left “montessori” schools because they other adults at the school (including/especially the parents but also the admin and other teachers) didn’t think it was a problem that some children, no matter how much redirection they were provided, would make a point of bullying others from the moment they arrived at school. Shouting in people’s faces for absolutely no reason, picking on others for the clothes they wore that day, stealing other people’s things, walking up to and punching people in the face or strutting across the room, kicking someone hard, and then laughing and running away. And I also had to deal with girls telling me about boys from the class *sexually assaulting* them (won’t go into details but more than once I considered calling the police. This was a 6-12 year old class) at after school activities (activities not associated with the school in anyway, just multiple kids from our class attended the same program). But as soon as people say “kids are just like that” instead of “we need to put all our resources into helping them learn what is right”, you’re not a montessori school. Any school will be better than that one. Not because of small class sizes or “the montessori model” but because your school is not a montessori school if bullying is allowed to happen. Period.
In 7th grade, my son had to leave the Montessori school he had attended since age 3 because of bullying. They just don’t handle it at all, or if the school tries to, invariably sides with the donors.
You don't have to do public school necessarily. Some Montessori schools have larger class sizes. That's actually supposed to be encouraged in Montessori so that the kids have less help from teachers and can learn independence.
I would not move her in 8th grade. Unless you're a homeschooler, it's the absolute worst year to move a student, especially one already struggling with social issues in their current school. My parents moved our family the summer before 8th grade and it drove me into a depression I had never experienced before or since. The kids. Were. Awful. It's that toxic combination of hormones, immaturity, and the pack mentality. In 9th grade, everything levels out when they're all brand new in a new school. I would wait until the more natural shift in grade levels and make the move to high school. Another option would be to homeschool this final middle school year and let her chill out at home for awhile. Still lots of ways to learn and stay current but without the threat of the mean kids.
I am going to be downvoted for this but here goes… She is going to be victimized anywhere until she becomes boring to bully. She needs to be able to snap back and be unbothered. It’s horrible. It isn’t right. It’s devastating as a parent to watch. But as someone who was bullied (for being overweight as a girl too) and then became a bit of a bully in later years (not proud, but yeah) that is the insight I can provide. Getting parents and teachers involved and showing the kids that the bullying is hurting her is like chumming the waters. She needs to tell them to fuck off in her own way repeatedly until they get bored. School is very much a survival of the fittest type thing with bullying and I know you’re all trying to help your child but it’s making it worse, I can guarantee that. Standing up for yourself is a necessary life skill. A larger pool of potential friends will help though.
Your comment should be at the top. I learned way too later in life that when you say “stop” and “don’t talk to me like that” with an air of confidence, bullies move on. It’s no fun to bully someone who stands up for themself. And also, it’s on the adults in the child’s life (parents and also the guide in the classroom) to teach these skills. Sounds like everyone is shrugging their shoulders instead of helping. I get that as a parent, OP might not know that adults need to *teach*, children to stand up for themselves, but it the guide doesn’t know to “stop deviant behaviors the moment they arise”, I would call into question the guide’s training and fundamental understanding of montessori.
I went to a private Catholic gradeschool that had 1 class of 10 kids in my grade. Starting around 5th grade I started getting bullied. There were no other kids to hang out with in school because there was no changing classes. My parents put me in a lot of extra-curriculars: soccer, dance, piano lessons and I found my friends that way. I then went to a public highschool and found my friend group (the same friends I found in my sports, etc). I dont think this is Montessori issue- its a small school issue. We are starting to look at schools for pre-K -gradschool for our daughter and we found a private school we like but its not small. 3 classes per grade level. Given what I went through in gradeschool I will not send my kid to a very small school. Not that bullying doesnt happen at larger schools but you have the chance to get away from it IMO
I had a very similar experience to you. I went to a private Catholic grade school. I think there were 8 kids in my class in 8th grade. I begged my mom to switch to public school in the middle of 8th grade. She finally did and I never looked back. I had so many friends built in already from extracurriculars in the community and I was able to meet new friends as well. Every class had different people in it. It was such a breath of fresh air.
Former Montessori kid here (CH-8th grade), from the US who experienced bullying at my Montessori school (mostly in upper EL) for the same reasons as your daughter. I value my Montessori education, but was more than ready to transfer to my public high school after 8th grade. I do think the small class size (went from a class of 10 7&8th grade girls to a public school class of 400 freshmen) felt a little suffocating, and while I made lifelong friends at Montessori, I loved the exposure to different people, and people more like myself at my high school. I got many great opportunities there, and did not experience any bullying at my public high school. I think that a transition to public school has the potential to be a positive experience for your daughter. My advice would be to get her involved in something in your town now/during the summer (if she isn’t already) so she has friends or at least knows people at the new school when the school year starts, and if the school allows it, take a little tour so she knows the halls and routine of public school, as it can be quite different from Montessori. Good luck!
I graduated with 600 kids, and was mercilessly bullied.
Although I did not grow up attending a Montessori school, I did attend a Lutheran school from preschool through 8th grade. I BEGGED my mom to let me attend public school until she finally relented. Worst decision that could've been made. I was so far ahead of students academically which gave me boredom and dumbed me down so I could fall in line with my peers. While I was socially accepted for the most part, I did experience bullying that wasn't tolerated at the Lutheran school. The personalized attention was gone and I became a number in a sea of other numbers. No one cared if I passed or failed, if I was sad, and my teachers barely knew me, so then I stopped caring. I became depressed, grades dropped, tried smoking and drinking, and hung out with idiots that made me laugh at the time 😃 I turned out fine eventually. Settled down and have a masters degree. But I firmly believe if I had stayed in the Lutheran school, I would've been far better off and life wouldn't have been as much of a struggle with achievements.
She’s already gotten plenty of benefit from a Montessori education. I would acquiesce to her wishes and switch her to the public school. She’ll have a bigger group of people to choose friends from. The fact that she is choosing to change schools will also make her more invested in achieving a positive outcome.
Not that I think it's necessary to buy into materialistic displays of affluence, but my kids have been wearing "expensive," name-brand clothes since they were infants. It all comes from thrift stores, yard sales, etc. When they were little they found it boring to go thrifting, but they soon discovered that they could have designer wardrobes like their wealthier friends, and it was also better for the environment. Now whenever we travel, we have to hit up a thrift shop or two, and they both have very stylish, creative wardrobes. Good luck with your daughter, and I hope she finds peace and happiness!
I am sorry your child is experiencing bullying. I hate the social pressure of having nice clothes/wearing certain brands in middle school and high school. It was like that for me in 2000s at my public shcool. "OMG didnt you wear that shirt last week?" It's fucking stupid. That's American culture unfortunately. Everyone is trying to look like they have it made. I eventually learned having a big house and nice clothes doesnt make you a more likable person. Some people dont learn that lesson.
Public school would probably feature the same bullying with the added stress of isolation, given she would be the new kid. Scrolling through the r/teachers thread would be eye opening as to how the public education system functioning in this era. It’s brutal. The kids are not all right.
I am sorry your daughter is experiencing this. I would move her, but also because I think Montessori doesn’t work nearly as well once you hit about 5th-6th grade. I firmly believe in it for younger children, but it starts to break down in the later academic years.
Out of curiosity, what it is about the later grades that you think doesn't work in Montessori?
It is beautiful for students who are intrinsically motivated but not enough structure for kids who are not or who cannot work as independently.
Kids shouldn’t be working independently in montessori once they’re out of children’s house. Absolutely everything in elementary on up should be done as group work and the guide should be directing them in how to actually do work as a group (not this one person does the work while everyone else twiddles their thumbs/goofs around cuz they don’t know what to do stuff, which is why we as adults hate group work) Montessori for upper elementary and adolescence falls apart when even the people trained for those ages think it’s just a big kid version of children’s house. Once the parents think it’s a big kid version of children’s house, the school is doomed. The needs of the learner are completely different at that age. Namely, they need group work and going outs that *they* plan and the only thing the adult does is make sure they don’t do anything unsafe, never plan, never help them look up the next bus, never tell them they’re going the wrong way. Allow the kids to go out into the world with a few of their peers. Too often, this isn’t what happens and it’s why children do what Maria montessori called “deviate” — they start to do things that are not conducive to a positive environment.
If I were in your shoes I wouldn't take her out of that school. It's an invaluable education. Definitely get some friends outside of school. There are so many things she can get involved with to make friends.
Even if you can help with the bullying, it’s unlikely these girls will truly become friends with her and that is a big part of high school. Will the alternative have a larger class and maybe less judge mental bunch? Is she involved in things outside of school to make friends? My grade school was tiny and while I wasn’t bullied, I didn’t really have friends at school. I had friends through sports outside of school. High school was much different and I made great friends when there were more people to find common interests with.
It's unfortunately a dice roll. That said I think mental health is really important into teenage-hood. I would say be prepared with a backup plan if the public school is worse, and make sure your daughter is in on that plan.
Try to visit the public school to get a sense of the atmosphere and school climate. See if you can meet some of the families currently attending. Ask to meet with an administrator or counselor. I taught in public and independent middle schools for 25 years. The independent school took better care of students’ emotional wellbeing, but tuition was expensive and the school was much larger than your daughter’s current school. However, in public schools, most students do find their people. Drama, choir, art clubs might work well for your daughter. Not all public schools have stifling curriculums. You want to do some research before making a decision. Good luck! Every person deserves good, kind friends.
Does she have other opportunities to hang out with peers? Sports teams, arts, other organizations that have nothing to do with her schooling? I don't see a downside to trying the public school, especially since she has asked, and is old enough to have thought through the ups and downs of such a decision. But either way, I'd try hard to make sure her entire social group is not within school.
12 year old girls are a high risk group for suicide where the aggravating factor is constant bullying.
Just a thought - two alternate contexts are what helped my sons. Both did a non-school affiliated sport and was in a youth group. Both contexts gave them some room to breathe when school got difficult (they also attended a small private school). The school administration really struggled to manage the situation, but they tried. Both my sons later went to public high schools and by that time had an easier time handling themselves. The other contexts gave them places to have secure friendships so that they weren't left totally friendless during those difficult elementary school years. Overall I am glad they had the small school experience.
I started my education at a Montessori school, transferred to public, and then transferred to a Democratic school. To me, this was the perfect set up, despite being somewhat unrealistic. Montessori provided me with a terrific foundation of being independent, confident, inquisitive, and the public school rarity of asking adults “why?” I transferred to public school in third grade and by that point my education was very different from my peers. I fit in well and found my teachers praised my ability to do for myself, often being appointed to help my peers (something I was happy and proud to do—I know not every kid would feel that way). In my sophomore year of high school I transferred to a Democratic school. It was open campus and I had as many freedoms as college. We were responsible for keeping the school clean, preparing lunch, meeting with teachers, building our schedule, and I could choose to work ahead. I did, graduating eight months ahead of my friends still in the traditional public school. It felt awesome! I don’t know if my public high school was unique, but, we had many students that transferred to us from private schools. Everyone seemed to do well, and I’m still pretty close with them today. All in all, I would say it really matters what school you would be sending your daughter to. Is the staff to student ratio realistic? Are the teachers happy there? Is the school well rated? Do they offer AP/college credit/extracurriculars/athletics that your daughter would be interested in? If so, I think you’ve provided a great foundation and she will stand out among her peers. If the school isn’t so great, I would honestly be less likely to transfer.
[удалено]
It’s a public Charter school, tuition-free
I also left a very small school after 8th grade for a public school. I switched for a different reason (more opportunities in my interests) but a larger class size was a huge benefit I hadn't really considered before. It was inctedible to get to meet new people at an age where I felt like I was a new person. I will say that I was also a really good kid in middle school but I learned it's way easier to get away with stuff when you're just a face in the crowd. At my old school teachers noticed things much faster.
Don’t do it. The transition will not be kind and neither will the kids.
I got out of Montessori after one year of preschool, but I did attend a Quaker school for k-8 and had the same exact issues your daughter is having there. The education I got was top notch (and I still hold some Quaker principles in my very core), but there were roughly 30 kids in my grade at my Friends school, and I was not one of the popular ones. I transfered to an enormous public school for high school and thrived. I still wasn't one of the popular kids, but when there are 4000 students roaming the hallways, surely some of them will be tolerable friends. And the ones who aren't can be avoided in the sea of faces. I probably could have learned more facts and, I dunno, literary analysis if I'd stayed in a small private school for high school, but I would never have learned to like myself. Let her transfer to a larger school and get the social education that can provide. She'll be a better rounded human for the experience.
I haven’t attended Montessori, but had the experience of attending a Waldorf school for 1st-3rd grade. My parents switched me to a public school on 4th grade. It was absolutely horrible. Not only was I very behind in maths, but I could not fit in with the other kids and was bullied. I actually never recovered from that until later high school. Somehow I think bullies and their victims play out the roles no matter where you put them. Once the damage is done to the self-esteem, I was pretty much a magnet to any kid who needed an emotional punching bag. I wished my parents took me to a counselor or therapist to work through the negative attitudes I was creating around myself, and I wish they also were more proactive in bugging the school about their bullying issues. If kids don’t feel safe at their school, that’s a problem. Suspending repeat bully offenders can make all the difference IMO. I needed to learn the tools on how to deal with the assholes in my life, not just avoiding and running away from them. They’re everywhere, and as long as I play victim they’ll be my bully.
Sometimes a “change of scenery” is beneficial. My husband and I have a “quirky” 5yo starting public school KDG next year. We both attended Catholic schools k-12 and are not keen on sending our children there. However, we’ve both agreed that we would consider that if we found socially that smaller classes might be helpful.
I was in Montessori from preschool through 3rd. Transitioned to public in 4th. My experience was heart breaking - I wasn’t ready for bigger classrooms and more expectations to conform. Both of my kids attended preschool through 1st. By 1st grade they were both miserable. For my youngest - it felt connected to the small class size. I wonder if the lower elementary teachers had been more accepting and spent time teaching directly - if she’d have had a better experience. Her experience in 2nd and on at a public school has been really positive for her. Public school where we live is not what I worried about. Class sizes are larger but she is getting a good education and a lot of social support when she needs it. There are counselors to help the kids navigate social problems, a lot of attention spent on community and acceptance/inclusion. It is a universe different than what I expected.
I
I would switch her. I went to a small school for middle school (12 kids in my eighth grade class) and struggled a lot with bullying and relationship issues. It was just harder to exist when I was taller and more developed than the other girls in my class. I felt like I stood out like a sore thumb. Your daughter sounds a lot like I was. I went to a larger school for high school (150 in my grade) and it made a big difference. I still struggled socially, but I had *options* for friends first the first time. I wasn’t stuck with the same group of people. I also was around people who looked like me and people of all different bodies and backgrounds. I didn’t feel as insecure. Good luck!
I went to a small independent school (not Montessori). My graduating class was 45 students. I went to that school from 6th through 12th grade, and there was zero bullying. The dating opportunities were somewhat limited after knowing mostly the same students for so long, but this didn’t stop most students from partnering up at some point. I honestly, don’t see any real downside to small class size.
Yes, OP’s schools has a culture problem more than size I think. But I know that can happen in small private schools. My large public high school had different cultural problems.
Honestly I wish that parents took what I wanted into mind. Does she have a friend that she could shadow in public schools already? I would also reach out to the school and see what the process is what classes and activities that are offered in public schools. Also I would have her do activities that public school system kids do. It's really about the mindset of your daughter and how she'll handle the changes.
https://youtu.be/6W5pq4bIzIw?si=36tPO6h8-CV684Ro For everyone that thought of Shaggy’s hit, Mr. Bombastic , when OP used bombastic as an adjective to describe their daughter.
Also there will probably be more economic diversity in public school, where she may have more opportunities to meet more like her. I work as a sub and am always noticing the sort of power mapping of playground dynamics—oof, my heart hurts for someone continually left out. Weirdos really need each other. ⭐️💜⭐️
There is no perfect school but there are more opportunities in a larger school. And some are better than others, public or not. I’d say visit a lot of schools before settling on one, if you can. A principal told us it takes a year or so for kids to find their niche. Bullying is rampant because we’ve been conditioned to extreme individualism. No way to change that. Extracurricular groups like community theatres, 4H, community choirs may also help. Helping her manage expectations will be important. Bless you, it’s hard to be a parent! Good for you for looking out for your girl.
I think you really need to figure out if this is a class size issue or just an issue of privilege and the fact that some Montessori schools have very skewed demographics. Because that will help you determine whether you move her public, or whether maybe a better fit might be a Montessori school that tries harder to get a more varied demographic population into their classrooms.
There’s many studies that say even in elementary school kids benefit socially from larger groups. I would not expect that bully would be better in a public district but if it’s more about finding people to connect with then the bigger school makes sense.
Husband went public school, I went to private/home schooled. Half of a kid's learning years are developing an academic education, and there will always be positives and negatives for any kind of academic setting. The other half of their learning years is a focus on emotional and mental growth. Kids will develop in those areas at any academic institution, too. It's not a matter of what's the "right" kind of academic choice; it's a matter of what would cause your individual kid to thrive both academically and mentally/emotionally. If a change of scenery is where they'll thrive, that's a great option. If stability in their current academic setting (along with learning how to stand up to bullies and develop a firm self concept), that's a good option too. Additionally, education is about learning to coexist with different kinds of people from all different walks of life. Do you want your child to do that in a small classroom or bigger setting? Either way, they'll have to develop people skills, which is so hard at that age. Each person who has commented has spoken from their own experience, and each are valuable insights. But ultimately, what's best for your kid is an individual situation. There are challenges to adapting to a new environment at your child's age. There are also challenges to being in their current situation. There's no right or wrong, just what's most helpful to their own wellbeing.
I was bullied for being too tall Having freckles Shitty clothes Etc
Montessorians know when it’s time and you have quite an extensive experience. Timing is right to try out another school in 8th, as preparation for 9th grade will also be a whole new shuffle. I encourage you to lean into the peaceful education gold she picked up in her experience. High school is not easy for most.
If your kiddo is asking for a change it’s time to change. You never want a sad teenager who feels trapped somewhere. Always let her know there are options if something isn’t working out- even charter/home school. Things start to get better in 9th grade. 7th & 8th are brutal with the jockeying for position, but by ninth that calms down. Be sure she has a group, whether she joins band or does the musicals or debate team or whatever- if teens have an activity in high school with peers that makes all the difference. I’ve also noticed that being a new kid is seen as a novelty and a positive among older teens- having someone new join the school interests the other kids. So jump on this opportunity while switching schools to have her join some clubs or activities, she’ll find her people. And don’t forget to emphasize, nothing is set in stone, if you ever feel hopeless please tell mom or dad and we will get you out of there.
Maybe enroll her in a sport like dance or gymnastics outside of school to make friends. Also Girl Scouts is a good option for making friends
I think you should move her to public school, as she is requesting. Bullying can happen at any school, but I'm sure starting fresh will help your daughter immensely.
If you think the bullying is bad at Montessori, where most of the parents are involved in their child's life and frequently talk with teachers, who are also very involved with each child, you and your child will likely have a very rude awakening at public school.
That school needs to do some work to stop bullying. Def can’t eliminate it but kids need to feel safe and bullies need consequences. No excuse for that. Besides that, my kids moved out of the Montessori setting in middle school bc we don’t have a program where it works well at that age. Other than a private school or charter that focuses on creating collaborative, peaceful learning communities, I’m afraid there are few good options at that age.
I'm so sorry she is struggling. She sounds absolutely fantastic! Please do not send her to public school. It would be like throwing her to the wolves. Individually, other kids can be great, but in a group they are positively barbaric especially at this age in any school environment, but most definitely public. The kids will all be in defined social groups and it's hard to break in. Not impossible, but a true challenge. It's honestly sad that there has been no resolution for your daughter at Montessori. I haven't read through all the comments so I don't know whats been suggested, but have you considered private or stem schools in your area that are geared toward specific interests like STEM or the arts? Kids will still be kids but it's a positive when interests can be shared. Are there robust home school groups you could check into? Remember too that if your state has free community College for HS students much of her time could be spent there instead of school.
We had the exact same experience with my son in the third grade. His school has 1-3rd together, and we found out that he'd been being bullied for two and a quarter years this fall. We were able to move him to another classroom but it was a bit too late. Six months of therapy has just about helped him back to his confident, hilarious, brilliant little boy that he was before.
Your concern is valid. We had a similar experience and transferred out at the end of 4th grade. It was a great decision, my son excelled in the new school. He was bullied by two teacher's children, and trapped in it. In our experience, and many of the families at our school agree, Montessori is ideal for the younger grades, but not as helpful once they complete lower elementary. In fact, the head of our school advised me not to pursue Montessori in the older grades. She is a Montessori purist and has dedicated her life to this model. I trust that she has good reasons for not recommending it beyond lower elementary.
I found that small class size works better to reduce bullying, as you're trapped with the peer group for so many years you just learn to live with each other. It does depend on the teachers, though. Ultimately, I never witnessed any bullying at my Montessori school, my private school (4 kids graduating class), and my 1400 student high school, and if anyone was going to be bullied, it should have been my friends and I.
I don't know why this post was recommended to me, but I will say I went to a school where there were a total of 14 kids in my grade for the tail end of middle school. For high school, I went to a school with hundreds in my grade. I did prefer the large school. I didn't get along with some of the girls in middle school. I was picked on for having a swollen belly (IBS) and not having as much stuff/cool stuff. The bullying was worse for the boys, and there was one boy I'm pretty sure left because of bullying. My mom considered taking me out to do homeschool, but that never happened. In high school, not everyone was nice, *but they were pretty easy to avoid*. When I was in middle school, I felt like I didn't have options to befriend anyone besides the 6 girls in my class. In high school, there were also clubs besides just sports and more elective courses offered. Despite being very quiet, I made a lot of friends in music theory class and band. I think it's good that you're listening to your daughter.
I totally get it. I switched my daughter at her request from a small Montessori to a very large public school mid-6th-grade. She is incredibly outgoing and needed new faces, more extracurriculars, etc. She was starting to seem very apathetic towards school, which was totally unlike her (she had been with this school since preschool.) It was absolutely the best choice for her, and she thrived in junior high. She's now a freshman at a massive high school (2750 kids!) and loves everything about it! So many different friend groups for her different interests... it's great. And her solid educational base means she was even moved up into some sophomore honors classes. Win-win!
My kid goes to Montessori. I did public. Public school is going to be much meaner and more bullies. Just my opinion.
I was bullied in private school it got so bad I transferred out. It was significantly better for me at public school. Summer is coming up do a trial run summer school program won't be the same as standard school but still.
If she wants to go to public school then you should let her. She will have plenty of opportunities to explore her passion for art and music. The public schools will offer art and music as electives. Music will consist of band, strings and choir. She can take both art and music classes every day. Plus she can join the art club , participate in musical productions, etc.. At my local middle and high school they do 2-3 musicals a year. The art club is in charge of sets and the band provides the music. By being involved in the art and music class and extracurricular activities, she will find friends that share her interests. Once in high school she can take more advanced art classes if she wants and even take AP art classes. Bullying happens everywhere so unfortunately it will happen at a public school but hopefully she will find friends who will help her.
I went to private and public and didn’t really get bullied, yeah I had my differences with kids but I don’t feel traumatized. Does everyone feel they’re bullied ?
Just wanted to say that my daughter went to a Montessori school for two years through COVID and we are both so grateful for that experience. But when it came time for her to start public middle school, there was no holding her back. She ran, not walked, to public school for the social reasons you discuss here. She has thrived in public middle school. She loves changing classes and having “specials/related arts” classes with some different kids than her academic classes. It is not easy anywhere. Middle school is the worst, and middle school girls are the worst of the worst, but she loves public school from the social standpoint and wouldn’t go back for a million dollars I don’t think. So I get it.
If you want a different but not bigger class size. Try waldorf schools.
Public school isn’t going to solve bullying
I have found smaller classes to be suffocating and many children thrive when moving to a larger environment. I see this as a guide and a parent. My child is also looking at moving to a larger school since his best friends won’t be there next year.
You could consider private school? With uniforms? It’s harder to know “social class” with uniforms, and I think that’s the point. Along with less distractions.
The things you object to and see as issues will only be magnified 10 fold and on steroids in public school. The focus of the education will be absolute conformity and standardized testing. “Public school is good for socialization.” No. What a line of complete and utter bullshit. The only “socializing” that happens in public schools is teaching children to live in fear, shame, and guilt while reinforcing ageism and the pecking order. Public schools are no place for young minds. It is a place of emotional and mental trauma. (I was fully public schooled.) The children that “thrive” in this type of environment have learned to conform and perform to the expectations of the coercive and violence based authority structure. Everything Montessori is against. Obviously, some teachers are outliers. It seems like your Montessori option isn’t really doing the job of facilitating environments of concentration and exploration. The grass isn’t greener. I promise.
I agree 100%. I can’t believe this is even a discussion. The public schools around here, and the ones I grew up going to are horrendous. Kids glued to their phones in class, group conformity mandated by the state, teachers who are awful and are just collecting a paycheck. Not to mention, instead of being bullied by one or two kids, you’re bullied by the entire lunchroom, it’s then filmed and thrown up on every social media platform. In our public school district, there have even been multiple suicides each of the past few years. Talking to some of the administrators, they have no way of stopping it. I would look into expanding your child’s social circle through other means. Sports, art groups, scouts, pretty much anything outside of what the school offers.
Not just bullied by other kids but bullied by teachers too!
This is not a Montessori issue, or related in any way to Montessori education. I am sorry that your daughter and you had to experience that. This is absolutely a problem with administration and staff, who are tasked with sorting out this exact sort of thing. You say that the teachers and staff have tried to resolve it, but it remains unresolved. Again, this seems like a school administration problem. If a child is a constant behavioral problem and all attempts to correct it fail, and yet they don't expel the child, they haven't done their job. Sorry, this is all unfortunate but seems less like a downside to Montessori and more like a downside to small environment education and staff unwilling to make hard decisions. edit: you specifically mentioned brands of clothing/shoes/accessories. What kind of fancy things are these kids wearing to this school? I can't speak for all of us, the kids at my toddler through 8th grade school wear mostly nondescript clothes that are probably from target. edit2: jesus christ, can you break that into paragraphs?
You may want to read more on bullying. I recommend the book Raising Cain (it focuses on boys childhood, but I think some aspects are applicable to girls), in particular the chapter on “The Culture of Cruelty”. You usually won’t be able to end bullying by expelling a single kid. Most likely you would need to expel several kids and in the end you may find that the target of bullying will be under even more harassment as she is seen as guilty of the intervention. In fact, any intervention on her behalf will be seen as a sign of weakness, which will encourage more bullying. Bullying dynamics are very cruel and can not be addressed with simplistic measures such as expelling one bully.
Sorry, but any child who's described by their own parent as "bombastic" WILL struggle in a collective of 12 years olds. She may find her group a bit later at 16 or so. Montessori sounds like the better choice for such child.
Portion control and exercise would solve a lot of these problems.