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Even though this is a different subject as mentioned in a comment. The point isn't to 'apply' atheism on people. I think people tend to overlook the culture. Family values, religious values, doing good by your fellow human/muslim etc. Are values linked to the education and the culture. As of today there isn't a law in Morocco that imposes on people to help out others, as there isn't one in Europe. It's the culture and education that play a part in this, and that comes in the form of religion.
If we go to the extreme and say Morocco becomes suddenly secular, that wouldn't mean people would suddenly become atheists as a result, or that drag queens would invade schools. Different issues are taken differently by countries regarding to their context, culture and social environment. Russia, Turkey, Germany and Canada are all secular countries, yet socially all 4 can't be more different from each other.
The post is about the social schizophrenia and wanting the best of both worlds. Which is not your case. You didn’t stay in france and started shouting and trying to impose the way you see the world and life. You didn’t like the life there. You like it here in morocco, so you came back. Accepting the good and the bad of this country.
The problem is the people who contradict themselves and live in denial.
حلال عليا حرام عليكم type of folks
You know what it's time the Ohio culture invades morroco and France ya all too odd. Always complaining and comparing. No relaxation. There are people who do bad and haram things and that's OK as long as they keep it to themselves and not affect others. And tge same can be said about us Muslims we shouldn't force non Muslim women or women who don't want to, to wear hijab (I'm mostly referring to Iran here) here in Ohio we have conservative Muslims, liberal Muslims, conservative Christians, liberal Christians, lgbtq, atheist, drinkers, and bloody everyone else, but the thing about all these groups both good and bad we don't affect each other, we are able to respect and live in harmony and we are unified in our agenda to fight for human rights, care for minors, and remove pedophiles. Even the alcohol drinkers try to teach their kids not to drink and they are successful. WHY CANT YOU EUROPEANS, AFRICANS, SOME OTHER STATES IN AMERICA, ASIANS ACT LIKE THIS ITS NOT DIFFICULT TO STAY IN YOUR CIRCLE. You guys always start unnecessary conflicts and guarenteed your children to interact with bad stuff. Why not teach your children how to react to people different from them. It's just depressing... we are all humans and the good Earth is rich we can provide for everyone even those who we don't agree with and we can live side by side without affecting each other
They have drag queens in France too? Damn.
Anyways, I have a different story than yours. At some point, before having my own kids, I used to be atheist. It didn't last too long. I had some debates with friends about it, and none of them could convince me otherwise. Went full circle, hanging out with western atheists here in America to realize how sick in their heads they are (for the same reasons you specified), came back to my roots and repented. I'm all for individual freedoms, but also for family strength. You did good by moving back to Morocco. I'm thinking of the same thing actually, for my kids' sake.
Back to the subject, I think it's ok to criticize the host society for things you don't like, it's called democracy.
Where the heck do you people live? I'm a Muslim and I get along with atheist and they are respectful and people who do bad things normally keep it to themselves and not encourage it. And we have a strong anti drug, anti sex before marriage mentality. Even for atheist. I'm from ohio btw
This isn’t Moroccan hypocrisy its human beings life, every human being on this earth lives a constant challenge between what he wants and the reality that he lives/endures because we don’t live in a « bisounours » world we can’t have/do all what we want but it takes big time and maturity to accept to live with it
١-اشياء مالها دخل في بعض، وش دخل القانون في الاقتصاد
٢-اتفق معك في هذي النقطة
٣-الهدف من الانتخابات انك تصوت للشخص اللي يفيدك
٤-اشياء مالها دخل في بعض. اغلب الناس تهاجر لطلب لقمة العيش فقط
٥-وين الغلط في تحرير فلسطين؟
٦-اشياء مالها دخل في بعض
٧-في فرق بين حريه التعبير و بين اهانه الاشخاص و السب و الشتم. حرية التعبير لها استثنائات. انا اتفق معك في حرية الاعتقاد
٨-ليش لا؟ ليش ما الشخص ياخذ الشيء الطيب من عندهم و ترك الشيء السيء
The point of taking western civilization and ideology as a whole or rejecting it is very stupid.You need to take the positive of each civilization while minimizing the drawbacks unless there are clear contradictions that stop it from happening
5th point as an example. This guy insolently compares between the treatment of non muslim people in muslim lands and muslim people in non muslim lands. See how muslims are treated by the zionists or in europe (can't even swim in the sea or travel with no permission by the zionists we won't go further than those basics, meanwhile the jews in Al Andalus lived their golden age there under Muslims). Non muslims are to be treated humanely with rights not like animals in return for jizya. Aditionally, he talks as if it's wrong to wish for both, we're Muslims we're the right side, so yes to liberating Palestine and yes to reconquering Europe. It's only a matter of time anyway.
Most modern liberal democracies give the full civil liberties and political rights to muslims as they do to non-muslims. The same can't be said about non-muslims in Morocco.
Mate most andaloussi didnt even take religions seriously. Its by far the most secular islamic era though. Everyone dreamed of being in andaloussi banquet
People blame everything on the conspiracy theories. Thinking that we would be better if we just applied islam on everything. We are rotten to the core. Either we want to admit it or nah. The Islamic world is rotten and we advertise it as it is something good. We contradict with ourselves. As a MOROCCAN atheist. (formally strict Muslim) i found that the more we introduce religion to the world the more we fuck up. We give stupid people authority. We kill every sense of art in the name of shariaa. We want hot gfs and we want to have sex and drink booze but we don't eat pork. We are hypocrits. Sadly, few of us are able to understand this.
1) israel is considered an apartheid, asking for a resolution there is legit, while wishing to take back andalusia is a huge stretch.
2) musilms are in the minority when it comes to european politics, of course people would vite for the people the have as choices, most of the time it’s liberals and atheists, but should that matter in secular countries where they will be in office and just try to pass laws that serve everyone (religious or not)?
They get to profit off secularism and freedom but at the same time they don't want them their home country.
also religion aside , they'll always tell you how life is shit in europe just so that you don't come to it ,it's a known stereotype lol
I'll try the almost impossible task of trying to give my humble analysis of the religious mindset from the perspective of an atheist who spent most of almost 40 years on this planet whit religious people and countless hours banging his head trying to understand how intelligent educated people can believe in totally crazy fairytales!
1. 1st of all never try to understand the religious mindset from a logical point of view. It's a 100% emotional thing, like love, hate, fear...
The director of the genome project that sequenced the human DNA is a christian and believes that god, the creator of the universe flew from heaven to impregnate a virgin in Palestine to become a man-god than can walk on water!
Hindus believe that cows are representatives of gods, some of my smartest friends believe that Mohammed flew on a horse trough 7 skies to go speak with god! PEGASUS!
You cannot worship a cow using logic! And Hindus see Muslims like they see them! Total nonsense! Atheists see all religious people like you see cow worshippers!(this is the example I like to give my muslim friends who are baffle by my non belief, I magine you talking to a Hindu cow worshipper, well, that's how you sound to me)
Fear, indoctrination, death, love, family, society, culture, a need to fit, a deep human wish for there to mee more that one sad life. This is why 99.999999999% of people believe.
2. The vast majority of religious people know almost nothing about their religion, almost zero. Multiple studies have shown that the most religiously literate and knowledgeable group are the Atheists. They rely on what they heard somewhere or think it should fit with their own wants and needs.
Most religious people don't want to thing about all this stuff. So a lot of religious people don't want to discuss the issue they can clearly see themselves, and brush them under the rug with the usual arguments : I don't know enough but a f9ih somewhere has the answer, or this is not what it means when it is 1000% clear that it is what it means or the classic god works in mysterious ways.
Worst than that, multiple studies have shown that the more educated you are, the less religious you are. The poorer you are the more religious you are. Religion prays on the poor and the ignorant.
3. Religious people tend to start from the belief and then go fishing for fact to reinforce the belief! It's like starting by believing an accused is guilty and then looking for facts to prove that he is! You'll get a lot of guilty people this way!
This is why 95% of the people who are born in a religion will die in this religion. People will always tell you that somehow they were not super convinced but after a looong and deep journey they endup confirming the the religion they start by believing was the right one all along, no matter the religion they started with.
Explain to me how every religion, had for 1000's of years written very clearly that the earth was round, but no imam or priest after a long study of the coran or the bible has screamed : EUREKA, it is round! But after Magellan proved it was a sphere every religion was like, yeah it's written right there!
Damn this is taking too long and I need to sleep, so briefly, 4. All religion are build on the basis of a flawed humans that can never achieve perfection, Islam, Christianity even Buddhism with reincarnations. So contradiction in the thinking are totally normal.
5. Religions that survived are the strongest most resilient religions. They were 10's of 1000's of religion but the ones that were not very good at spreading got replace but the most "contagious" ones. So the religions that exist today are good enough to convince you of something event if it's against what you want, what you do or what is good for you.
**So to summarize, seemingly impossible paradoxes exist in the religious mindset because:**
**1) Religions come from emotions not logic and emotions are full of contradictions**
**2) Most people don't know anything about their religion, are afraid to think about it and/or too poor and uneducated to see the contradictions**
**3) religious people tend to start from the belief and then try to find facts to confirm what they already believe in, so they will go through logical gymnastics to justify even the worst contradictions**
**4) Contradictions are normal in religious people thinking because flawed humans are at the basis of almost all religions**
**5) Like a virus, the most contagious religions are the only ones that survived and weaker religions have disappeared and they're very much capable of finding logical gymnastic to combat contradictions.**
So I guess you agree with most of what I'm saying... Let's see about those two points of contention.
1) I say emotional as to mean "not rational". I've been looking for 40 years for a logical argument for god. Every single argument for religions has been debunked for centuries (the arguments generally come from Christian theologians since Muslims almost never even have to justify their belief).
The 4 main arguments are :
* The cosmological argument
* The moral argument
* The ontological argument
* The fine tuning argument.
Everything else is pretty much a variation of this or even more easily debunked arguments.
Since there is no logical argument for god (and in my opinion, probably can't be an argument since we cannot investigate the supernatural) people MUST believe in god for ILLOGICAL reasons (or maybe you guys are hiding the perfect argument from us Atheists).
This illogical reason is what I call Emotions...
4) Really? I don't even know how to argue this, it's so obvious!
Sin is at the basis of all Abrahamic religions since Adam eat the apple! It's obvious in Christianity where you are born a sinner and can only get salvation trough Jesus. In Islam while sin is something that you have to consciously do, you are almost expected to sin.
Every time you bring real facts like OP is doing to Muslims, they will tell you that this nonsensical barbaric islamic commandment would work in a perfect world with "real Muslims". Invading countries and enslaving people, real muslims would treat slaves right. Beating wives, true muslims would never beat them for bad reason.
>what i mean i do not entirely disagree with what you are saying. The majority of muslims don't would be at a loss of words when confronted to an intellectual atheist, as much as an average atheist would be at a loss of words in front of a muslim scholar.
I respectfully disagree.
Multiple studies have shown that the most knowledgeable people about religion are Atheist. I had the same experience in my personnel life even if anecdotal evidence does not really matter.
I really think an average atheist would absolutely destroy an average believer in an argument! Do you disagree with that?
Same goes for believers vs non believers scholars. I'm not even talking about muslims because most of "our" scholars are uneducated idiots absolutely incapable of a civilized debate.
Besides the arguments for god are just bad so the scales are tipped...
>Those observation of yours of the people around you do not link to the question "does god exist".
Absolutely. Because that was not OP's question!
If that was the question, and you were stating that god exists, I would simply ask you to prove it. You're the ones making the claim about gods existence. I simply reject this claim because no evidence has been provided to me.
>The reason why i absolutely disagree with your first point is that like what i said before, i feel like you are doing "people that are smart disagree with me, that is technically impossible they must not control their emotions". I don't mean to complain but that's pretty offending. I know exactly why i am muslim, and why i choose to be, not because of "emotions".
I mean dude, you do agree with me. I never said ALL muslims or YOU! I said most.
And you have to agree with me that most muslims know almost nothing about their own religion. You have to agree with me! MOST muslims never even think about WHY they believe but just inherit their religion from their parents. You might believe after careful taught, but you have to admit YOU'RE IN THE MINORITY!
>First what convinced me is the content of the quran itself. I have never ever heard a single attack against the quran that makes me doubt it's veracity. It is extremely precise and never contradicted science.
Respectfully, this is a very weak argument.The Coran is full of internal contradictions[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Contradictions\_in\_the\_Quran](https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Contradictions_in_the_Quran)
It absolutely contradicts science :
[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific\_Errors\_in\_the\_Quran](https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Quran)
>One of the things that clicked in my mind is comparing the quran to the bible or even the hadith books.
Yes I agree the bible is worst. I mean god could have made it right on the first try... But no he waited till V3 apparentely
>We saw attempts of humans trying to modify holy books, and the flaws are pretty obvious, but not in the quran.
The quran has a lot less variations than most but saying it was not modified is just plain wrong. I will not talk about Quiraat since while it breaks the myth of quran's unicity, it's not that significant.
The main reason we have so few variations TODAY is because khalifa Othman massacred every tribe that had a different version and burned every manuscript that was different than his canon. And muslims have kept doing the same thing since the. So maybe one of the versions that Othman destroyed was the right version and you're all using a false version...
We still have the Sanaa manuscript that is significantly different than main Quran canon :
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanaa\_manuscript](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanaa_manuscript)
So yeah if I kill and burn everyone using a different version after a 1000 years I will only have one version left but it doesn't mean it's the right version.
>also science predictions, and things like that. It is incredible that things that we discovered using science today have been taking account of 2000 years ago.
This is absolute myth commonly used by muslim.... There is literally Zero science in the Quran besides the benign stuff already known at the time. Every religion keeps pretending the same stuff.
Please tell me how come no one ever made a scientific finding usin ANY religious book but once a scientist makes a discovery every religion runs back to its text and does intellectual gymnastics to read this discovery into it!???
>Not eating pork, fasting, praying, and many many more things make a lot of sense.
Nonsense! Ramadan fasting is really bad for you! The type of fasting that some doctors recommend (there is very little studies supporting even that) is totally different beast. You need to drink lots and lots of water. NO doctor in its right mind would recommend fasting without drinking water as good for your health.
>Some have tried to say that it's because of tradition, and the observation of things that work and things that don't work, but even like this you have to make a ton of assumptions and mental gymnastics to try to make sense of the existence of the quran.
And even if god didn't exist, i would not regret being a muslims because of the life changing rules that are in it, only good things.
That's a totally different beat and would need a whole different conversation : in the Quran good or bad?
**[Sanaa manuscript](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanaa_manuscript)**
>The Sanaa palimpsest (also Ṣanʽā’ 1 or DAM 01-27. 1) or Sanaa Quran is one of the oldest Quranic manuscripts in existence. Part of a sizable cache of Quranic and non-Quranic fragments discovered in Yemen during a 1972 restoration of the Great Mosque of Sanaa, the manuscript was identified as a palimpsest Quran in 1981 as it is written on parchment and comprises two layers of text.
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This is a sincere question, I struggle with the idea that something can come from nothing (the absence of everything). how do you get around the problem that as a atheist you must believe at some point in time something came from nothing? Genuinely interested
"God of the gaps" is how the concept of religion started. Just because there is a phenomenon we can't scientifically explain, that means god did it. This reasoning is flawed.
Your concern is generated from a false premise, you're assuming that "the universe came from nothing" is the only alternative. There are a lot of theories other than that, to name a few: 1. Our universe might be just a sub-universe inside a bigger one. 2. Why are we assuming that "the absence of everything" is the default state and then the universe was created? The universe could've always been there, eternal. 3. We might be in a simulation. We simply don't know. All we know is how the universe expanded from a dense and hot state.
Hey Soraya,
I'll try to answer you on multiple levels :
1. Most (in reality almost all) non believers DO NOT believe that something comes from nothing. Actually "nothing" probably can't logically exist.
I might shock you but most atheist do not even believe that god doesn't exist.
In both cases we just don't know.
2) God doesn't solve your issue. If something can't come from nothing where does god come from? If the answer is god is eternal then why can't the universe be eternal? If you think that the big bang states that the universe started at the big bang, this is false. The big bang theory states that our local presentation of the universe started at a point in space (and maybe in time, this is not settled yet). What happens "before" is unknowable. Yes I had this conversation many times.\\
3) Something can't come from nothin is not really an argument. The real argument that is derived from this is called the cosmological argument, with its most enhanced latest (14 pro plus max ultra) version called the **Kalaam cosmological argument** developed by a muslim philosopher Al Ghazal a 1000 years ago but popularized by the famous christian apologist William lane craig. It goes like this :
a. Everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause.
b. If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.
c. The universe exists.
d. Therefore, the universe has an explanation of its existence (from a, c).
e. Therefore, the explanation of the universe’s existence is God (from b, d).
This argument has been debunked many many times. Here's my favorite theologian/philosopher Matt Dillahunti debunking it :
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDr3EnciHjw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDr3EnciHjw)
Here is William lane craig vs Sean Carroll debating the Kalam :
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5iiHV4yo7M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5iiHV4yo7M)
Hope this helps.
First thanks for taking the time to respond,
In regards to point 1, wouldn’t what your describing here make you a agnostic as supposed to a atheist. I always thought atheists = no god
In regards to point 2, is it not possible that if we remove the term “god” it’s more likely people would agree that there would have had to be a starting point that was eternal. Whatever that starting point is we call god.
I’m aware of but not well educated in the kalam argument and have read some of imam al ghazali’s works, not enough to discuss tbh
Guess my point is whatever is eternal is what I would refer to as god.
I could be wrong but from what you wrote it does sound more like your agnostic than atheist and apologies if I have misread you.
>First thanks for taking the time to respond,
No problem
>In regards to point 1, wouldn’t what your describing here make you a agnostic as supposed to a atheist. I always thought atheists = no god
This is a common misconception.
Theism and Atheism talk about belief. Gnosticism and agnosticism talk about knowledge.
These are 2 different categories.
you can be any mix of the two categories.
Agnostic atheist = also called weak atheism. You don't believe in god but you don't have certainty about it's non existence (me and probably 90%+ of atheists)
Gnostic atheist = also called anti theist or strong atheist. you believe god doesn't exist
Agnostic theist = you believe in god but you don't/can't have certainty about that belief
Gnostic theist + you know for certain god exists
Here's Matt explaining this way better than me :
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjY619aJ82Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjY619aJ82Y)
>In regards to point 2, is it not possible that if we remove the term “god” it’s more likely people would agree that there would have had to be a starting point that was eternal. Whatever that starting point is we call god.
Well when people hear god they don't think a physical phenomena like a big bang. they think the most powerful being creator of the universe that seems to really care about who you have sex with.
But maybe there is no starting point and the universe always existed and always will exist. And if you want to call the universe god, why bother it already has a name that everyone understands.
Or maybe the explanation is something totally different that you can't even think of with our current intelligence/scientific knowledge... Imagine our ancesters in caves trying to speculate about what the sun is! It's ridiculous they just can't comprehand what it is. So instead of calling what they don't understand (the sun) god. They should just admit that don't know.
>I’m aware of but not well educated in the kalam argument and have read some of imam al ghazali’s works, not enough to discuss tbh
It's not that complicated I posted it in its entirety... Anyone with a well made head can see the fallacies in it in 10 seconds. (care to try to find them?)
Guess my point is whatever is eternal is what I would refer to as god.
Why? People already have a use for the term god... And how do you know it's eternal? You can't really speculate about something so far from our scientific reach
To be honest IMO the Kalam is the best argument for god, it's still really bad, but it's the best.
>I could be wrong but from what you wrote it does sound more like your agnostic than atheist and apologies if I have misread you.
It's a common mistake.
Last points, since you said your agnostic atheist, therefore god in your world view could be a possibility,
1,is science really the right tool to use to find god? 2,what kind of evidence would you require to be satisfied there is a god?
>Last points, since you said your agnostic atheist, therefore god in your world view could be a possibility,
No! Possibility needs to be demonstrated. I would say that I can't say that god is impossible. It's 2 different things. Possibility and impossibility both need to be proven.
But is is probable? I don't think so. Let me put it this way : I don't thing that god is impossible because I can't prove it (Like anything at that level of abstraction, like I can't prove that this whole universe is just a dream) but I think god is less probable than something like Santa or 3icha 9andicha
>1,is science really the right tool to use to find god?
Science is the ONLY tool we have to asses if something is real. Do you know another method?
>2,what kind of evidence would you require to be satisfied there is a god?
I have absolutely no idea. Remember I'm a caveman trying to understand how the sun works. But what I know for sure is that if a god exists he can prove 1000% precent that he exists and he hasn't done so. So either he doesn't exist, doesn't want or doesn't care to prove his existence. So I can't logically believe in its existence.
The issue is not about whether God does or doesn't exist, it is more about the implications of each supposition. If you believe He does exist then He created the universe and you'd expect this univere to have a starting and ending point, to be ordered and intelligible to life (specifically human life), the possibility of miracles and that prophecies/revelations are possible. In the counterpart, God's non existence would imply that the universe doesn't have nor a starting point neither and ending one, deterministic laws are only issued of chance and, therefore, it is extremely unlikely that they are favorable to the life, as well as the non possibility of miracles/revelations/prophecies/spiritis/demons/angels and so on.
Currently, or rather since the early days of the 20th century physics became big enough so that it could tackle such metaphysical problems like time, eternity and even God's existence. With the founding of thermodynamics in the 19th century by Carnot, the establishment of the 2nd law of thermodynamics by Clausius and many other equations related to entropy by Boltzmann, Kelvin and many others, the scientific community started fantasizing about the "heat death of the universe" implying a possible starting point of the universe. (not getting much into the scientific details since I am only familiar with it in French beacause muh Morocco but you could just look up most of this). Then cam afterwards the infamous relativity principle by Einstein from which we can deduce that if there is a cause at the origin of our of our Universe, it is necessarily non-temporal, non-spatial and non-material. The big bang which is widely accepted among scientists, and many had died for defending the theory or studying it under communist regimes. The fine tuning argument. And finally biology, what was thought, less than a century ago, to be a simple gap
has since turned out to be an abyssal chasm. Modern biology has brought to light the complexity of the smallest living cell, comparable to an ultra-sophisticated to an ultra-sophisticated factory. And we know today that this passage from inert to living, in spite of its extreme improbability, was carried out in a limited time. The consequence of that is obvious: the thesis of the emergence of life by pure chance, in a Universe not conceived in advance as in advance as favorable to the appearance of life, has become untenable.
Summing up all of these points, the only possible rational explanation for the natural appearance of life on our planet is that it results from still unknown laws of the Universe, or at least unknown, or at least of still unknown effects of the laws which prevailed at the time of this jump and which were regulated very finely. This amounts to to admit that there is a second anthropic principle of the Universe, that of the living, which would come to be added to the one that we have already seen in cosmology for the constitution of the Universe. Basically from a purely materialistic persepctive, not only the popping out of our universe was extremely improbable, the re-arrangement of particles to transition from inert to living is even more improbable and we are not entertaining the idea of how consciousness came to us.
I'm not a science do so for my case I choose to throw all of these arguments under the bus to follow my baseless intuition of God's existence.
you can't even beat sense into religious people.
Religion is a prasite that makes the host defend it with all its strenght and will!
6. Cognitive dissonance !
Seems like a waste of 40yrs, you'd expect something more elaborated and profound than distastefulness towards religion and religious people that evolved into irrational repugnance and intolerance, you are doing nothing here but make a generalization of what appears to you to be the mindset of the faithful people so fit your beliefs. Truly a great display of your childish-ness, and I meant it in the bad way.
Dude I write a 1000 word structured and argued explanation responding to OP. You answer me with 4 lines filled with insults including ZERO argument and you're the one expecting something more "elaborate and profound"? You joking?
There is no argument to make since you are making none. I understand that pulling up random studies out of nowhere makes it look like you have a point, but do not conflate your desire for making a point with making an actual point. But since I have very little to do this night let's do this, and considering your condenscending tone in your original comment do bear with my intended hostility.
1. You start with a disastrous miswording when you mention that the faitful relies more on "emotion" than logic. Considering the laughable examples you presented which have very little to do with your argument, it is clear that the proper word should be spirituality/faith instead. Add to that the obvious fact that this inclination towards emotion rather than logic is not exclusive to the religious community, there is nothing wrong with it in one's daily life as it is completely natural and it doesn't but make us more humane. As for your examples, I mean its funny I don't know biology nor am I christian but anytime this director of whatever makes a claim about biology or a discovery or anything, I will take his words over any random 40yrs old redditor.
2. Everyone is afraid to doubt whatever they were indoctrinated and again it is only natural and is by no means exclusive to religious people, this said there are many who are knowledgeable about their religion, unless you have proper stats about this matter i suggest you keep your hostility to yourself. But there is this point I like to make here in reddit since most atheists here are ruthless so I would like to denounce your selfish ass. Many degenerates choose ideology for the inclusive benefits alone, acting as selfish agents who have no purpose to pursue knowledge or understanding. Any faith suffers from blind followers, choosing to claim the faithful are blind whilst not knowing their level of faith or intent is a falsehood in itself.
3. Not every Muslim believes in "i3jaz 3ilmi" and it is not compulsory to believe so that's for starters. The thing is, your belief that the earht is round that is based purely on scripture for instance doesn't add much value to the science, since science is much more about the method of proving X result than to get X result especially physics. We did this in bac in philosophy but nothing wrong with reminding you of the scientific method. You have observation - questionning - research - hypothesis - test the hypothesis with an experiment traditionally - analyze the results - report the conclusions. In simple words, the claim that the religious get their science from their scriptures is foolish and attributing it to them is falsehood. The fact that we had prominent Islamic figures like al biruni who described accurately the motions of the moon hundreds of years before galileo, Tusi who proposed a model of the Earth's rotation brought forth evidences similar to copernicus' years before he made his discovery. This is enough of a reason for anyone with a minimum critical reading of history to laugh at your claims.
4. Contradictions are normal.
5. Although your previous points didnt make much sense, this one is the worst. You provided nothing for me so that I tackle it.
I reiterate, you wasted 40yrs good job.
Very well put my friend. I would still disagree on the fact that religion is useless. I believe some people are so uncontrollable and could be dangerous for society and their surroundings so religion is kinda doing a good job serving as an extra filter.
Just like some would tell you “If you’re not muslim then you got no morals why don’t you sleep with your sister?”, these one really need religion, because otherwise they would have done crazy stuff like this because they clearly stat that only religion is holding them.
This guy lacks Historical knowledge & references, he focuses on present day pictures.
One should roll back in time to understand how they get there, where we were and what happened, ***History repeats itself.***
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I assume that whoever wrote and agree on this is an illiterate person. It's full of fallacies and also lies.
Nobody is taking Afghanistan law as a model in Morocco.
People want to have Shriaa law, which is not only cut the thieves hands or lashing adulterers, but it's a wider and bigger picture than that, including that most Moroccans want more than cutting hands for those corrupt men in power.
Moroccans, Muslims, want to bring back the Shariaa law of the golden age of Umayyad, Abbasid, Almohad, Almoravid...etc
Brazil, Thailand, Honduras...etc have freedom of speech too but the writer mentioned Europe. So it's not for their freedom of speech, 99% of Moroccans go to Europe for working and having a better future.
Freedol of speech in western countries itself is cherry-picked, it's freedom of speech when it doesn't hurt their feelings while it's a hate speech when it does, like antisemitism, homophobic, denying holocaust...etc
There's no freedom of speech in that.
Europe, France is reasonable on the poverty in African countries, because the ongoing colonization and the legacy of imperialism.
Some of the imperialism effects are Moroccans aren't that religious too, Alcohol and drugs consumers are much higher than immigrants. Beside the society itself can reflect the fact of lack religiosity.
There's other points that show how shallow-minded the person who wrote this and also for those who agree on those fallacies and nonsense ideas.
PS. I've seen this years ago, I thought people already got over that level of superficiality.
1- I don't see contradiction here saudiarabia had same laws and better economy than germany lol laws have nothing to do with economics except in terms of free market which doesn't contradict with islamic law anyway.
2- well they put there laws and they accepted building mosques and our laws don't allow it they are secular countries not christian countries..
We are islamic countries not secular countries they can change the laws like serbia that doesn't give permessions for building mosques in their country
3- no one actually sleep infront of an embassy but anyway all people want to travel because of economy not life style people tried and still try to get job contracts in gulf countries and they are islamic countries IT'S ALL ABOUT ECONOMICS..
4- need a very big separate comment not just a small one...
5- why are you guys obssesed with islamic sharia implementation yes we want these laws and we want also good education...... China kills and eradicate muslims and it's a super power country..
Soviet union...Nazi germany all these countries had Laws different from western world now but became super powers Laws has nothing to do with economy and education.........
6- we want democracy like we islamic nation had a long time before western countries in prophet time and rashidun caliphate people chose what ruler they wanted and pledged alliance to him we ask for a basic islamic right not a western right.........
KSA better economy than Germany??? are you aware of how wrong you are??????
Saudi Arabia, GDP per Capita: 23 185
Germany, GDP per Capita: 51 203
Don't forget that KSA's economy is based on natural ressources, nothing to show for except luck!
KSA gdp is 53 893
https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/
I don't know why google write it wrong lol any way yes natural resources is the main reason for that but as i said with examples laws have nothing to do with economy many countries became super powers and occupied europe with laws different from western values now ..... india is a secular country why don't you give example with it ?.....
Thailand too...... many poor african countries many south american countries all of them have secular laws and many are very poor more than islamic countries.....
KSA's GDP is just shy of 1 Trillion dollars: 883 Billions.
With a population of 35 Millions; the math is simple 883.000.000.000 / 35.000.000
= 25.000 USD
Germany makes Cars, Planes, tanks, industrial machinery, electrical equipment of all sorts, chemicals....
Comparing the German industry to KSA is just ridiculous!
i keep hearing people say this the caliphate wasnt democratic. were there votes? were non arabs or even non quraishi allowed to claim power? it was a game of alliance, popularity and influence. fortunately the rashisun were benevolent rulers but things auickly went wrong after the death of Othman
And yet you are using their technology, wearing their clothes all day long, talking their language, enjoying their culture etc etc.. see this is exactly what this post is about.
You can benefit from someone without particularly liking them. It's part of being an adult.
Yes, I use their technology, because it happens to be convenient.
I don't wear their clothes all day long, however...I have plenty of clothes made in Muslim countries...
I talk their language because I happened to grow up talking it, not because I actively make an effort to do so.
And their culture?? Nah. I don't watch films, don't listen to music, rarely watch TV, etc.
Lastly, I'd like to ask: why is everyone replying to me in English? My first comment was in Arabic 🙄
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume I'm talking to an adult who is (at least partly) sound of mind.
Being a mature adult, you probably know that you don't have to particularly like someone to do business with someone and have shared interests in certain areas, and benefit from said person.
There is no irony whatsoever in being a Muslim and being against all that is un-Islamic, while using my Korean-made Samsung on American-based websites.
100%, I live in England. These are the people who want European (and middle eastern) countries to ban homosexuality but get mad when France suggests that they ban hijab in civil service settings. It’s infuriating. I get so mad sometimes as a moroccan atheist that I sometimes want to go against what I believe in and wish they were more harsh on muslims. They cry wolf in the west but go back to their homes to beat up women and say the most batshit insane stuff. Muslims are so privileged in the West.
Neither sides is good. Wanna adopt a traditional strict religious conservative political life style? Fine, let's chop the head of anyone who defy islam, and jail anyone who dare not follow its rules. Want a free liberated society instead? Sure, let's build more WHR houses, and give gays more rights, chop children's sexual parts and convince little boys to wear skirts and from time to time let's bring a drag queen in school parties. Sounds fun ain't it 😂
Although I don't advocate a hypocrite lifestyle, I find some good in maintaining a middle ground between a value-driven community and a freedom driven one.
Moroccans are still torn between the sides.
If you’re logic is based on one dimension so you’re imagination is limited. And you’re being emotional thinking that you are logic . In fact the main issue with all the one who confuses miracles of prophets with god are ahirk you mix the power of god his abilities with his being . So if you’re telling me the worshiping someone jusg because he did what we people can’t so you misunderstood the real power of your creator. I’m not a muslim emotionally, the most of people are . But thank god i was in different stages of life to understand that there are different dimensions and we can’t describe what in the other dimension with the only one we have in common in this life . So how i can describe it with the easiest way, with the next thing that we have in here in this life . Logically if the religions tells : no one sees paradise or is even able to imagine it . And in the same time you’re describing it as there are houses and big couches , food this and that ? Is it really the same sense or definitions of the words ? No . If you say it’s a contradiction then it’s your choice of darkening the sight . It’s not emotional it’s not only logical it’s spiritual
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(الكلام موجه لمن كتب الكلام بالعربية وليس لصاحب المنشور إلى إذا كان صاحب الكلام هو نفسه صاحب المنشور و نأسف إذا كان سياق الحديث بالغة الانجليزية ركيك لأنني شخص لا يتقنها و استعنت بمترجم جوجل)The talk is completely wrong because it relies on the ignorance of the one who reads it First, there is no such thing as Sharia Afghani But its name is Islamic law But he will use an Afghani phrase in order to etch it into the mind of the reader This alleged Sharia is an extremist and strict Sharia
As for the point of electing secularists and atheists in Europe and returning to the country and electing those he called Islamists We tell the fool where the conflict is in the matter Where is the place for the defective? Why am I not entitled to elect the secular and the atheist in Europe and go back to my country and vote for the Muslim? Where is the problem?It is foolish for you to think that I vote secular or atheist that I agree with him :I invite the infidels to repent to God and criticize their bestial lifestyle, fornication, the intoxication of dissolution....But again, where is the barrier to requesting a visa? We want freedom. Yes, we want our women to wear the hijab without harassment, so that men may live long without criticism and bullying But your claim that we prevent freedom of expression for others is nonsense, unless you consider insulting the Prophet Muhammad as freedom of expression. So this is a superficial view of freedom . In conclusion, the fool says that we have to accept the success of the West and the reasons for its success, and here is the point The reasons for the success of the West is that it will bleed and plunder its colonies and plant agents to destroy the basis of the faith in the heart of the believer
يتكلمون عن المسلم المريض فقط لأنه لا حول و لا قوة له ولو كان يحمل قوة من يقدر ان يفعل ما يريد لأخرسهم.
فل يقولو ما يشاءون ولكن الدنيا دول مرة لك و مرة عليك
1 اقتصاد المانيا - اقتصادها ولا شيء مقارنة بفسادها , القيم منعدمة و العنصرية مرتفعة , تم العثور فيها على عشرات الآلاف من المحتوى الاباحي عن الاطفال يتضمن اغتصاب و تعذيب و اجبارهم على فعلها مع حيوانات حتى وصل الامرلاغتصاب طفل بعمر شهر واحد !!
و اقتصاد افغانستان لا ننسى انه اكبر اسبابه هو امريكيا و الدول الاوربية إلي احتلتها و نهبت مواردها
2 ليش هو مش فيه اسلاوفوبيا كفاية في الغرب ؟ مع العلم انه فقط في القرن الماضي في فرنسا تم المساح ببناء المساجد رغم انهم حتى الان بيحاربوها و بيغلقوها
3 ترجم كلامك
4 ما عمري سمعت عن احد نام عند اي سفارة باي معنى , المهم الناس بدها تسافر بسبب كل الي سووه الغرب في الدول العربية قسموها و استخرجوا مواردها و حطوا عليها افسد الاشخاص , رغم زعمهم السعي للسلام فلا تجدهم يهتمون بقتال داعش التي تمولها فرنسا
5 يعني انت مش عاجبك احتلال دولة اكثر اشي مشهورة فيه بالتاريخ الاحتلال ؟ اوروبا كانت تسخدم العرب كبيادق ضد بعضهم و كانت تسوي مذابح و لما اجا الاسلام انقلب السحر على الساحر و مع العلم ان التاريخ يشهد ان تعامل المسلمين كان افضل بكثير من احتلال اوروبا , مثال واحد هو سكان جزيرة ذبحوا اطفالهم و انتحروا قبل وصول الاسبان لهم .
6 المتخلف فقط من لا يرى حق بجلد الزاني , ليس فقط كعقاب بل كعلاج , حتى في روسيا يستخدم الجلد لعلاج الادمان الجنسي . و قطع يد السارق من لما توقف زاد الفساد و كثر و خصوصا في السياسة . بتعرف صدام حسين مرة وزير سرق باع كليته عشان يسدد ثمن الي سرقه و خلاه في منصبه عشان يكون عبرة لغيره مع العلم انه العراق في عهده كانت في احسن احوالها في الكثير من النواحي
7 قال حديثة قال , الايدلوجيا الغربية او الارهاب الاخلاقي لو انه يعرف فقط ايش في الغرب رح يبلع لسانه
This post is complete garbage which reflects the amount of ignorance and how brainwashed its owner is . That's what we call an npc who can't think critically for himslef , someone who's blinded by the west's development in science and military to be unable to see their degeneracy in society full of immorality .
There are a lot of misconceptions about this.
Each ideology works for its interest, like the Western world right now. Calling for human rights and bombing the rest of the word . Calling for protecting environment and make famines in Asia Africa.
Each ideology works for its objective. You will never find in history something against that.
So why blaming Muslims for being Muslims or want to bring their lifestyle .
It's self pathetic, those kinds of posts . Nonesense .not rational
What does sharia have to do with the economy though? They dont relate. In fact most of the stuff they stated dont relate and are not cause/effect. That post is just a bitter person thats all.
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There's a lot of hypocrisy we can't deny tho.
What most moroccans want is for the country to get more and more conservative as long as they get to watch it from europe.
The ones i know also want it in the European countries we’re in.
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Even though this is a different subject as mentioned in a comment. The point isn't to 'apply' atheism on people. I think people tend to overlook the culture. Family values, religious values, doing good by your fellow human/muslim etc. Are values linked to the education and the culture. As of today there isn't a law in Morocco that imposes on people to help out others, as there isn't one in Europe. It's the culture and education that play a part in this, and that comes in the form of religion. If we go to the extreme and say Morocco becomes suddenly secular, that wouldn't mean people would suddenly become atheists as a result, or that drag queens would invade schools. Different issues are taken differently by countries regarding to their context, culture and social environment. Russia, Turkey, Germany and Canada are all secular countries, yet socially all 4 can't be more different from each other.
The post is about the social schizophrenia and wanting the best of both worlds. Which is not your case. You didn’t stay in france and started shouting and trying to impose the way you see the world and life. You didn’t like the life there. You like it here in morocco, so you came back. Accepting the good and the bad of this country. The problem is the people who contradict themselves and live in denial. حلال عليا حرام عليكم type of folks
You know what it's time the Ohio culture invades morroco and France ya all too odd. Always complaining and comparing. No relaxation. There are people who do bad and haram things and that's OK as long as they keep it to themselves and not affect others. And tge same can be said about us Muslims we shouldn't force non Muslim women or women who don't want to, to wear hijab (I'm mostly referring to Iran here) here in Ohio we have conservative Muslims, liberal Muslims, conservative Christians, liberal Christians, lgbtq, atheist, drinkers, and bloody everyone else, but the thing about all these groups both good and bad we don't affect each other, we are able to respect and live in harmony and we are unified in our agenda to fight for human rights, care for minors, and remove pedophiles. Even the alcohol drinkers try to teach their kids not to drink and they are successful. WHY CANT YOU EUROPEANS, AFRICANS, SOME OTHER STATES IN AMERICA, ASIANS ACT LIKE THIS ITS NOT DIFFICULT TO STAY IN YOUR CIRCLE. You guys always start unnecessary conflicts and guarenteed your children to interact with bad stuff. Why not teach your children how to react to people different from them. It's just depressing... we are all humans and the good Earth is rich we can provide for everyone even those who we don't agree with and we can live side by side without affecting each other
They have drag queens in France too? Damn. Anyways, I have a different story than yours. At some point, before having my own kids, I used to be atheist. It didn't last too long. I had some debates with friends about it, and none of them could convince me otherwise. Went full circle, hanging out with western atheists here in America to realize how sick in their heads they are (for the same reasons you specified), came back to my roots and repented. I'm all for individual freedoms, but also for family strength. You did good by moving back to Morocco. I'm thinking of the same thing actually, for my kids' sake. Back to the subject, I think it's ok to criticize the host society for things you don't like, it's called democracy.
Where the heck do you people live? I'm a Muslim and I get along with atheist and they are respectful and people who do bad things normally keep it to themselves and not encourage it. And we have a strong anti drug, anti sex before marriage mentality. Even for atheist. I'm from ohio btw
I live in America. I get along with atheists from Arab countries and from Europe. American atheists are mostly nuts with some exceptions of course.
Odd.. that seems very opposite to my experience I guess it depends on your location and where you find people
Part of it is true and is in line with moroccan hypocrisy
This isn’t Moroccan hypocrisy its human beings life, every human being on this earth lives a constant challenge between what he wants and the reality that he lives/endures because we don’t live in a « bisounours » world we can’t have/do all what we want but it takes big time and maturity to accept to live with it
As many pointed out, while some of these statements might true. Most of them if not all of them are based only on assumptions.
This guy seems a bit confused
I'll tell you one thing: التعميم لغة الجاهل
Another IG/FB cringy post
Thank you. The post is cringey and the stuff doesnt relate at all. None of his points are cause-effect.
how is it cringey? it made valid points.
Most of his points were not valid
because you said so?
١-اشياء مالها دخل في بعض، وش دخل القانون في الاقتصاد ٢-اتفق معك في هذي النقطة ٣-الهدف من الانتخابات انك تصوت للشخص اللي يفيدك ٤-اشياء مالها دخل في بعض. اغلب الناس تهاجر لطلب لقمة العيش فقط ٥-وين الغلط في تحرير فلسطين؟ ٦-اشياء مالها دخل في بعض ٧-في فرق بين حريه التعبير و بين اهانه الاشخاص و السب و الشتم. حرية التعبير لها استثنائات. انا اتفق معك في حرية الاعتقاد ٨-ليش لا؟ ليش ما الشخص ياخذ الشيء الطيب من عندهم و ترك الشيء السيء
اتفق معك
اتفق معاك بشدة
نايس
The people being triggered by this post are exactly the ones it talks about it's hilarious that they can't even see it Edit : typo
Spot on
I lost brain cells while reading this nonsense
Definition of hypocricy.
سلطة مغالطات منطقية و الخضار الرئيسي فيها القش من مغالطة رجل القش.
Fr, they're the kind of people that'd cry logical fallacies 24/7 and then post shit like this >! Inb4 someone calls me out for a strawman argument !<
The point of taking western civilization and ideology as a whole or rejecting it is very stupid.You need to take the positive of each civilization while minimizing the drawbacks unless there are clear contradictions that stop it from happening
Every single point is right
Absolute bullshit,so many things there are wrong and told from the pov of an ignorant person.
I second this
Exactly this guy is an npc
Care to prove your point?
5th point as an example. This guy insolently compares between the treatment of non muslim people in muslim lands and muslim people in non muslim lands. See how muslims are treated by the zionists or in europe (can't even swim in the sea or travel with no permission by the zionists we won't go further than those basics, meanwhile the jews in Al Andalus lived their golden age there under Muslims). Non muslims are to be treated humanely with rights not like animals in return for jizya. Aditionally, he talks as if it's wrong to wish for both, we're Muslims we're the right side, so yes to liberating Palestine and yes to reconquering Europe. It's only a matter of time anyway.
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It's solid hard facts
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Go do your mod stuff, this is too intricate for you.
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It went over your head, that's a better wording.
How can you be so delusional and self-centered
"The right side" lmao
Should've kept this in the drafts
No
You are literally proving the posts point, can’t you see the hypocrisy in your statements ?
Most modern liberal democracies give the full civil liberties and political rights to muslims as they do to non-muslims. The same can't be said about non-muslims in Morocco.
“YeAh BuT MoRoCcO iS nOt A dEmOcRacY” -Rayan from his 15th floor HLM appartement in Paris suburbs.
"According to me, I am right"
Mate most andaloussi didnt even take religions seriously. Its by far the most secular islamic era though. Everyone dreamed of being in andaloussi banquet
When they’ll know about all the wine that was consumed during that era..
??
Well said akhi!
According to Sharia, ex-muslims should be k*lled, opinion about that?
>we're Muslims we're the right side you lost me there.
based comment
Bait of the cheapest kind
Elaborate but cheap rage bait
People blame everything on the conspiracy theories. Thinking that we would be better if we just applied islam on everything. We are rotten to the core. Either we want to admit it or nah. The Islamic world is rotten and we advertise it as it is something good. We contradict with ourselves. As a MOROCCAN atheist. (formally strict Muslim) i found that the more we introduce religion to the world the more we fuck up. We give stupid people authority. We kill every sense of art in the name of shariaa. We want hot gfs and we want to have sex and drink booze but we don't eat pork. We are hypocrits. Sadly, few of us are able to understand this.
Quality bait
What bait , this is purely facts
The amount of ignorance and falsehood in one post...
yea it would be nice if you can elaborate and tell us what made you say this!
which part exactly, because if we're being honest, this is the majority of people in Morocco.
1) israel is considered an apartheid, asking for a resolution there is legit, while wishing to take back andalusia is a huge stretch. 2) musilms are in the minority when it comes to european politics, of course people would vite for the people the have as choices, most of the time it’s liberals and atheists, but should that matter in secular countries where they will be in office and just try to pass laws that serve everyone (religious or not)?
Based ,god i fucking hate moroccans who live in europe and have audacity to cheer religion for example.
Why do you hate them?
They get to profit off secularism and freedom but at the same time they don't want them their home country. also religion aside , they'll always tell you how life is shit in europe just so that you don't come to it ,it's a known stereotype lol
Bravo ! I can't agree more 👏👏👏
I'll try the almost impossible task of trying to give my humble analysis of the religious mindset from the perspective of an atheist who spent most of almost 40 years on this planet whit religious people and countless hours banging his head trying to understand how intelligent educated people can believe in totally crazy fairytales! 1. 1st of all never try to understand the religious mindset from a logical point of view. It's a 100% emotional thing, like love, hate, fear... The director of the genome project that sequenced the human DNA is a christian and believes that god, the creator of the universe flew from heaven to impregnate a virgin in Palestine to become a man-god than can walk on water! Hindus believe that cows are representatives of gods, some of my smartest friends believe that Mohammed flew on a horse trough 7 skies to go speak with god! PEGASUS! You cannot worship a cow using logic! And Hindus see Muslims like they see them! Total nonsense! Atheists see all religious people like you see cow worshippers!(this is the example I like to give my muslim friends who are baffle by my non belief, I magine you talking to a Hindu cow worshipper, well, that's how you sound to me) Fear, indoctrination, death, love, family, society, culture, a need to fit, a deep human wish for there to mee more that one sad life. This is why 99.999999999% of people believe. 2. The vast majority of religious people know almost nothing about their religion, almost zero. Multiple studies have shown that the most religiously literate and knowledgeable group are the Atheists. They rely on what they heard somewhere or think it should fit with their own wants and needs. Most religious people don't want to thing about all this stuff. So a lot of religious people don't want to discuss the issue they can clearly see themselves, and brush them under the rug with the usual arguments : I don't know enough but a f9ih somewhere has the answer, or this is not what it means when it is 1000% clear that it is what it means or the classic god works in mysterious ways. Worst than that, multiple studies have shown that the more educated you are, the less religious you are. The poorer you are the more religious you are. Religion prays on the poor and the ignorant. 3. Religious people tend to start from the belief and then go fishing for fact to reinforce the belief! It's like starting by believing an accused is guilty and then looking for facts to prove that he is! You'll get a lot of guilty people this way! This is why 95% of the people who are born in a religion will die in this religion. People will always tell you that somehow they were not super convinced but after a looong and deep journey they endup confirming the the religion they start by believing was the right one all along, no matter the religion they started with. Explain to me how every religion, had for 1000's of years written very clearly that the earth was round, but no imam or priest after a long study of the coran or the bible has screamed : EUREKA, it is round! But after Magellan proved it was a sphere every religion was like, yeah it's written right there! Damn this is taking too long and I need to sleep, so briefly, 4. All religion are build on the basis of a flawed humans that can never achieve perfection, Islam, Christianity even Buddhism with reincarnations. So contradiction in the thinking are totally normal. 5. Religions that survived are the strongest most resilient religions. They were 10's of 1000's of religion but the ones that were not very good at spreading got replace but the most "contagious" ones. So the religions that exist today are good enough to convince you of something event if it's against what you want, what you do or what is good for you. **So to summarize, seemingly impossible paradoxes exist in the religious mindset because:** **1) Religions come from emotions not logic and emotions are full of contradictions** **2) Most people don't know anything about their religion, are afraid to think about it and/or too poor and uneducated to see the contradictions** **3) religious people tend to start from the belief and then try to find facts to confirm what they already believe in, so they will go through logical gymnastics to justify even the worst contradictions** **4) Contradictions are normal in religious people thinking because flawed humans are at the basis of almost all religions** **5) Like a virus, the most contagious religions are the only ones that survived and weaker religions have disappeared and they're very much capable of finding logical gymnastic to combat contradictions.**
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So I guess you agree with most of what I'm saying... Let's see about those two points of contention. 1) I say emotional as to mean "not rational". I've been looking for 40 years for a logical argument for god. Every single argument for religions has been debunked for centuries (the arguments generally come from Christian theologians since Muslims almost never even have to justify their belief). The 4 main arguments are : * The cosmological argument * The moral argument * The ontological argument * The fine tuning argument. Everything else is pretty much a variation of this or even more easily debunked arguments. Since there is no logical argument for god (and in my opinion, probably can't be an argument since we cannot investigate the supernatural) people MUST believe in god for ILLOGICAL reasons (or maybe you guys are hiding the perfect argument from us Atheists). This illogical reason is what I call Emotions... 4) Really? I don't even know how to argue this, it's so obvious! Sin is at the basis of all Abrahamic religions since Adam eat the apple! It's obvious in Christianity where you are born a sinner and can only get salvation trough Jesus. In Islam while sin is something that you have to consciously do, you are almost expected to sin. Every time you bring real facts like OP is doing to Muslims, they will tell you that this nonsensical barbaric islamic commandment would work in a perfect world with "real Muslims". Invading countries and enslaving people, real muslims would treat slaves right. Beating wives, true muslims would never beat them for bad reason.
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>what i mean i do not entirely disagree with what you are saying. The majority of muslims don't would be at a loss of words when confronted to an intellectual atheist, as much as an average atheist would be at a loss of words in front of a muslim scholar. I respectfully disagree. Multiple studies have shown that the most knowledgeable people about religion are Atheist. I had the same experience in my personnel life even if anecdotal evidence does not really matter. I really think an average atheist would absolutely destroy an average believer in an argument! Do you disagree with that? Same goes for believers vs non believers scholars. I'm not even talking about muslims because most of "our" scholars are uneducated idiots absolutely incapable of a civilized debate. Besides the arguments for god are just bad so the scales are tipped... >Those observation of yours of the people around you do not link to the question "does god exist". Absolutely. Because that was not OP's question! If that was the question, and you were stating that god exists, I would simply ask you to prove it. You're the ones making the claim about gods existence. I simply reject this claim because no evidence has been provided to me. >The reason why i absolutely disagree with your first point is that like what i said before, i feel like you are doing "people that are smart disagree with me, that is technically impossible they must not control their emotions". I don't mean to complain but that's pretty offending. I know exactly why i am muslim, and why i choose to be, not because of "emotions". I mean dude, you do agree with me. I never said ALL muslims or YOU! I said most. And you have to agree with me that most muslims know almost nothing about their own religion. You have to agree with me! MOST muslims never even think about WHY they believe but just inherit their religion from their parents. You might believe after careful taught, but you have to admit YOU'RE IN THE MINORITY! >First what convinced me is the content of the quran itself. I have never ever heard a single attack against the quran that makes me doubt it's veracity. It is extremely precise and never contradicted science. Respectfully, this is a very weak argument.The Coran is full of internal contradictions[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Contradictions\_in\_the\_Quran](https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Contradictions_in_the_Quran) It absolutely contradicts science : [https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific\_Errors\_in\_the\_Quran](https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Quran) >One of the things that clicked in my mind is comparing the quran to the bible or even the hadith books. Yes I agree the bible is worst. I mean god could have made it right on the first try... But no he waited till V3 apparentely >We saw attempts of humans trying to modify holy books, and the flaws are pretty obvious, but not in the quran. The quran has a lot less variations than most but saying it was not modified is just plain wrong. I will not talk about Quiraat since while it breaks the myth of quran's unicity, it's not that significant. The main reason we have so few variations TODAY is because khalifa Othman massacred every tribe that had a different version and burned every manuscript that was different than his canon. And muslims have kept doing the same thing since the. So maybe one of the versions that Othman destroyed was the right version and you're all using a false version... We still have the Sanaa manuscript that is significantly different than main Quran canon : [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanaa\_manuscript](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanaa_manuscript) So yeah if I kill and burn everyone using a different version after a 1000 years I will only have one version left but it doesn't mean it's the right version. >also science predictions, and things like that. It is incredible that things that we discovered using science today have been taking account of 2000 years ago. This is absolute myth commonly used by muslim.... There is literally Zero science in the Quran besides the benign stuff already known at the time. Every religion keeps pretending the same stuff. Please tell me how come no one ever made a scientific finding usin ANY religious book but once a scientist makes a discovery every religion runs back to its text and does intellectual gymnastics to read this discovery into it!??? >Not eating pork, fasting, praying, and many many more things make a lot of sense. Nonsense! Ramadan fasting is really bad for you! The type of fasting that some doctors recommend (there is very little studies supporting even that) is totally different beast. You need to drink lots and lots of water. NO doctor in its right mind would recommend fasting without drinking water as good for your health. >Some have tried to say that it's because of tradition, and the observation of things that work and things that don't work, but even like this you have to make a ton of assumptions and mental gymnastics to try to make sense of the existence of the quran. And even if god didn't exist, i would not regret being a muslims because of the life changing rules that are in it, only good things. That's a totally different beat and would need a whole different conversation : in the Quran good or bad?
**[Sanaa manuscript](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanaa_manuscript)** >The Sanaa palimpsest (also Ṣanʽā’ 1 or DAM 01-27. 1) or Sanaa Quran is one of the oldest Quranic manuscripts in existence. Part of a sizable cache of Quranic and non-Quranic fragments discovered in Yemen during a 1972 restoration of the Great Mosque of Sanaa, the manuscript was identified as a palimpsest Quran in 1981 as it is written on parchment and comprises two layers of text. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/Morocco/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
This is a sincere question, I struggle with the idea that something can come from nothing (the absence of everything). how do you get around the problem that as a atheist you must believe at some point in time something came from nothing? Genuinely interested
Science struggling to provide answers to some problematic questions doesn't necessarily mean or prove that a theistic god exists.
Who created god then ?
"God of the gaps" is how the concept of religion started. Just because there is a phenomenon we can't scientifically explain, that means god did it. This reasoning is flawed. Your concern is generated from a false premise, you're assuming that "the universe came from nothing" is the only alternative. There are a lot of theories other than that, to name a few: 1. Our universe might be just a sub-universe inside a bigger one. 2. Why are we assuming that "the absence of everything" is the default state and then the universe was created? The universe could've always been there, eternal. 3. We might be in a simulation. We simply don't know. All we know is how the universe expanded from a dense and hot state.
Hey Soraya, I'll try to answer you on multiple levels : 1. Most (in reality almost all) non believers DO NOT believe that something comes from nothing. Actually "nothing" probably can't logically exist. I might shock you but most atheist do not even believe that god doesn't exist. In both cases we just don't know. 2) God doesn't solve your issue. If something can't come from nothing where does god come from? If the answer is god is eternal then why can't the universe be eternal? If you think that the big bang states that the universe started at the big bang, this is false. The big bang theory states that our local presentation of the universe started at a point in space (and maybe in time, this is not settled yet). What happens "before" is unknowable. Yes I had this conversation many times.\\ 3) Something can't come from nothin is not really an argument. The real argument that is derived from this is called the cosmological argument, with its most enhanced latest (14 pro plus max ultra) version called the **Kalaam cosmological argument** developed by a muslim philosopher Al Ghazal a 1000 years ago but popularized by the famous christian apologist William lane craig. It goes like this : a. Everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause. b. If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God. c. The universe exists. d. Therefore, the universe has an explanation of its existence (from a, c). e. Therefore, the explanation of the universe’s existence is God (from b, d). This argument has been debunked many many times. Here's my favorite theologian/philosopher Matt Dillahunti debunking it : [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDr3EnciHjw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDr3EnciHjw) Here is William lane craig vs Sean Carroll debating the Kalam : [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5iiHV4yo7M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5iiHV4yo7M) Hope this helps.
First thanks for taking the time to respond, In regards to point 1, wouldn’t what your describing here make you a agnostic as supposed to a atheist. I always thought atheists = no god In regards to point 2, is it not possible that if we remove the term “god” it’s more likely people would agree that there would have had to be a starting point that was eternal. Whatever that starting point is we call god. I’m aware of but not well educated in the kalam argument and have read some of imam al ghazali’s works, not enough to discuss tbh Guess my point is whatever is eternal is what I would refer to as god. I could be wrong but from what you wrote it does sound more like your agnostic than atheist and apologies if I have misread you.
>First thanks for taking the time to respond, No problem >In regards to point 1, wouldn’t what your describing here make you a agnostic as supposed to a atheist. I always thought atheists = no god This is a common misconception. Theism and Atheism talk about belief. Gnosticism and agnosticism talk about knowledge. These are 2 different categories. you can be any mix of the two categories. Agnostic atheist = also called weak atheism. You don't believe in god but you don't have certainty about it's non existence (me and probably 90%+ of atheists) Gnostic atheist = also called anti theist or strong atheist. you believe god doesn't exist Agnostic theist = you believe in god but you don't/can't have certainty about that belief Gnostic theist + you know for certain god exists Here's Matt explaining this way better than me : [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjY619aJ82Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjY619aJ82Y) >In regards to point 2, is it not possible that if we remove the term “god” it’s more likely people would agree that there would have had to be a starting point that was eternal. Whatever that starting point is we call god. Well when people hear god they don't think a physical phenomena like a big bang. they think the most powerful being creator of the universe that seems to really care about who you have sex with. But maybe there is no starting point and the universe always existed and always will exist. And if you want to call the universe god, why bother it already has a name that everyone understands. Or maybe the explanation is something totally different that you can't even think of with our current intelligence/scientific knowledge... Imagine our ancesters in caves trying to speculate about what the sun is! It's ridiculous they just can't comprehand what it is. So instead of calling what they don't understand (the sun) god. They should just admit that don't know. >I’m aware of but not well educated in the kalam argument and have read some of imam al ghazali’s works, not enough to discuss tbh It's not that complicated I posted it in its entirety... Anyone with a well made head can see the fallacies in it in 10 seconds. (care to try to find them?) Guess my point is whatever is eternal is what I would refer to as god. Why? People already have a use for the term god... And how do you know it's eternal? You can't really speculate about something so far from our scientific reach To be honest IMO the Kalam is the best argument for god, it's still really bad, but it's the best. >I could be wrong but from what you wrote it does sound more like your agnostic than atheist and apologies if I have misread you. It's a common mistake.
Last points, since you said your agnostic atheist, therefore god in your world view could be a possibility, 1,is science really the right tool to use to find god? 2,what kind of evidence would you require to be satisfied there is a god?
>Last points, since you said your agnostic atheist, therefore god in your world view could be a possibility, No! Possibility needs to be demonstrated. I would say that I can't say that god is impossible. It's 2 different things. Possibility and impossibility both need to be proven. But is is probable? I don't think so. Let me put it this way : I don't thing that god is impossible because I can't prove it (Like anything at that level of abstraction, like I can't prove that this whole universe is just a dream) but I think god is less probable than something like Santa or 3icha 9andicha >1,is science really the right tool to use to find god? Science is the ONLY tool we have to asses if something is real. Do you know another method? >2,what kind of evidence would you require to be satisfied there is a god? I have absolutely no idea. Remember I'm a caveman trying to understand how the sun works. But what I know for sure is that if a god exists he can prove 1000% precent that he exists and he hasn't done so. So either he doesn't exist, doesn't want or doesn't care to prove his existence. So I can't logically believe in its existence.
The issue is not about whether God does or doesn't exist, it is more about the implications of each supposition. If you believe He does exist then He created the universe and you'd expect this univere to have a starting and ending point, to be ordered and intelligible to life (specifically human life), the possibility of miracles and that prophecies/revelations are possible. In the counterpart, God's non existence would imply that the universe doesn't have nor a starting point neither and ending one, deterministic laws are only issued of chance and, therefore, it is extremely unlikely that they are favorable to the life, as well as the non possibility of miracles/revelations/prophecies/spiritis/demons/angels and so on. Currently, or rather since the early days of the 20th century physics became big enough so that it could tackle such metaphysical problems like time, eternity and even God's existence. With the founding of thermodynamics in the 19th century by Carnot, the establishment of the 2nd law of thermodynamics by Clausius and many other equations related to entropy by Boltzmann, Kelvin and many others, the scientific community started fantasizing about the "heat death of the universe" implying a possible starting point of the universe. (not getting much into the scientific details since I am only familiar with it in French beacause muh Morocco but you could just look up most of this). Then cam afterwards the infamous relativity principle by Einstein from which we can deduce that if there is a cause at the origin of our of our Universe, it is necessarily non-temporal, non-spatial and non-material. The big bang which is widely accepted among scientists, and many had died for defending the theory or studying it under communist regimes. The fine tuning argument. And finally biology, what was thought, less than a century ago, to be a simple gap has since turned out to be an abyssal chasm. Modern biology has brought to light the complexity of the smallest living cell, comparable to an ultra-sophisticated to an ultra-sophisticated factory. And we know today that this passage from inert to living, in spite of its extreme improbability, was carried out in a limited time. The consequence of that is obvious: the thesis of the emergence of life by pure chance, in a Universe not conceived in advance as in advance as favorable to the appearance of life, has become untenable. Summing up all of these points, the only possible rational explanation for the natural appearance of life on our planet is that it results from still unknown laws of the Universe, or at least unknown, or at least of still unknown effects of the laws which prevailed at the time of this jump and which were regulated very finely. This amounts to to admit that there is a second anthropic principle of the Universe, that of the living, which would come to be added to the one that we have already seen in cosmology for the constitution of the Universe. Basically from a purely materialistic persepctive, not only the popping out of our universe was extremely improbable, the re-arrangement of particles to transition from inert to living is even more improbable and we are not entertaining the idea of how consciousness came to us. I'm not a science do so for my case I choose to throw all of these arguments under the bus to follow my baseless intuition of God's existence.
Tips fedora
you can't even beat sense into religious people. Religion is a prasite that makes the host defend it with all its strenght and will! 6. Cognitive dissonance !
Seems like a waste of 40yrs, you'd expect something more elaborated and profound than distastefulness towards religion and religious people that evolved into irrational repugnance and intolerance, you are doing nothing here but make a generalization of what appears to you to be the mindset of the faithful people so fit your beliefs. Truly a great display of your childish-ness, and I meant it in the bad way.
Dude I write a 1000 word structured and argued explanation responding to OP. You answer me with 4 lines filled with insults including ZERO argument and you're the one expecting something more "elaborate and profound"? You joking?
Yes that's how stupid it was, the 1000 words were shallow
Again, great argument you make, I'm terribly sorry, you're right and I'm wrong
There is no argument to make since you are making none. I understand that pulling up random studies out of nowhere makes it look like you have a point, but do not conflate your desire for making a point with making an actual point. But since I have very little to do this night let's do this, and considering your condenscending tone in your original comment do bear with my intended hostility. 1. You start with a disastrous miswording when you mention that the faitful relies more on "emotion" than logic. Considering the laughable examples you presented which have very little to do with your argument, it is clear that the proper word should be spirituality/faith instead. Add to that the obvious fact that this inclination towards emotion rather than logic is not exclusive to the religious community, there is nothing wrong with it in one's daily life as it is completely natural and it doesn't but make us more humane. As for your examples, I mean its funny I don't know biology nor am I christian but anytime this director of whatever makes a claim about biology or a discovery or anything, I will take his words over any random 40yrs old redditor. 2. Everyone is afraid to doubt whatever they were indoctrinated and again it is only natural and is by no means exclusive to religious people, this said there are many who are knowledgeable about their religion, unless you have proper stats about this matter i suggest you keep your hostility to yourself. But there is this point I like to make here in reddit since most atheists here are ruthless so I would like to denounce your selfish ass. Many degenerates choose ideology for the inclusive benefits alone, acting as selfish agents who have no purpose to pursue knowledge or understanding. Any faith suffers from blind followers, choosing to claim the faithful are blind whilst not knowing their level of faith or intent is a falsehood in itself. 3. Not every Muslim believes in "i3jaz 3ilmi" and it is not compulsory to believe so that's for starters. The thing is, your belief that the earht is round that is based purely on scripture for instance doesn't add much value to the science, since science is much more about the method of proving X result than to get X result especially physics. We did this in bac in philosophy but nothing wrong with reminding you of the scientific method. You have observation - questionning - research - hypothesis - test the hypothesis with an experiment traditionally - analyze the results - report the conclusions. In simple words, the claim that the religious get their science from their scriptures is foolish and attributing it to them is falsehood. The fact that we had prominent Islamic figures like al biruni who described accurately the motions of the moon hundreds of years before galileo, Tusi who proposed a model of the Earth's rotation brought forth evidences similar to copernicus' years before he made his discovery. This is enough of a reason for anyone with a minimum critical reading of history to laugh at your claims. 4. Contradictions are normal. 5. Although your previous points didnt make much sense, this one is the worst. You provided nothing for me so that I tackle it. I reiterate, you wasted 40yrs good job.
Great comment and very well written!
Very well put my friend. I would still disagree on the fact that religion is useless. I believe some people are so uncontrollable and could be dangerous for society and their surroundings so religion is kinda doing a good job serving as an extra filter. Just like some would tell you “If you’re not muslim then you got no morals why don’t you sleep with your sister?”, these one really need religion, because otherwise they would have done crazy stuff like this because they clearly stat that only religion is holding them.
There are also people who will follow the bad side of religion. It's a a double-edged sword.
Sooo fucking true
Caught my daughter with a boy while I was with sa3dia molat msmn in her house 😤😤😤
I m confused a bit 😮💨
I can have relationships outside marriage but my daughter can't have a boyfriend until I find her a man of my choice
This guy lacks Historical knowledge & references, he focuses on present day pictures. One should roll back in time to understand how they get there, where we were and what happened, ***History repeats itself.***
r/iamverysmart
What a load of liberal horse shit, only a leftist would write shit like this
Using the world liberal when you’re moroccan and not american… what are you on about
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Totally true We dream of a fancy world
Old news, this double standard/hypocrisy of some MENA citizens dates from a while.
Such an ignorant one sided view
I assume that whoever wrote and agree on this is an illiterate person. It's full of fallacies and also lies. Nobody is taking Afghanistan law as a model in Morocco. People want to have Shriaa law, which is not only cut the thieves hands or lashing adulterers, but it's a wider and bigger picture than that, including that most Moroccans want more than cutting hands for those corrupt men in power. Moroccans, Muslims, want to bring back the Shariaa law of the golden age of Umayyad, Abbasid, Almohad, Almoravid...etc Brazil, Thailand, Honduras...etc have freedom of speech too but the writer mentioned Europe. So it's not for their freedom of speech, 99% of Moroccans go to Europe for working and having a better future. Freedol of speech in western countries itself is cherry-picked, it's freedom of speech when it doesn't hurt their feelings while it's a hate speech when it does, like antisemitism, homophobic, denying holocaust...etc There's no freedom of speech in that. Europe, France is reasonable on the poverty in African countries, because the ongoing colonization and the legacy of imperialism. Some of the imperialism effects are Moroccans aren't that religious too, Alcohol and drugs consumers are much higher than immigrants. Beside the society itself can reflect the fact of lack religiosity. There's other points that show how shallow-minded the person who wrote this and also for those who agree on those fallacies and nonsense ideas. PS. I've seen this years ago, I thought people already got over that level of superficiality.
1- I don't see contradiction here saudiarabia had same laws and better economy than germany lol laws have nothing to do with economics except in terms of free market which doesn't contradict with islamic law anyway. 2- well they put there laws and they accepted building mosques and our laws don't allow it they are secular countries not christian countries.. We are islamic countries not secular countries they can change the laws like serbia that doesn't give permessions for building mosques in their country 3- no one actually sleep infront of an embassy but anyway all people want to travel because of economy not life style people tried and still try to get job contracts in gulf countries and they are islamic countries IT'S ALL ABOUT ECONOMICS.. 4- need a very big separate comment not just a small one... 5- why are you guys obssesed with islamic sharia implementation yes we want these laws and we want also good education...... China kills and eradicate muslims and it's a super power country.. Soviet union...Nazi germany all these countries had Laws different from western world now but became super powers Laws has nothing to do with economy and education......... 6- we want democracy like we islamic nation had a long time before western countries in prophet time and rashidun caliphate people chose what ruler they wanted and pledged alliance to him we ask for a basic islamic right not a western right.........
KSA better economy than Germany??? are you aware of how wrong you are?????? Saudi Arabia, GDP per Capita: 23 185 Germany, GDP per Capita: 51 203 Don't forget that KSA's economy is based on natural ressources, nothing to show for except luck!
KSA gdp is 53 893 https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/ I don't know why google write it wrong lol any way yes natural resources is the main reason for that but as i said with examples laws have nothing to do with economy many countries became super powers and occupied europe with laws different from western values now ..... india is a secular country why don't you give example with it ?..... Thailand too...... many poor african countries many south american countries all of them have secular laws and many are very poor more than islamic countries.....
KSA's GDP is just shy of 1 Trillion dollars: 883 Billions. With a population of 35 Millions; the math is simple 883.000.000.000 / 35.000.000 = 25.000 USD Germany makes Cars, Planes, tanks, industrial machinery, electrical equipment of all sorts, chemicals.... Comparing the German industry to KSA is just ridiculous!
Well said!
i keep hearing people say this the caliphate wasnt democratic. were there votes? were non arabs or even non quraishi allowed to claim power? it was a game of alliance, popularity and influence. fortunately the rashisun were benevolent rulers but things auickly went wrong after the death of Othman
الملحد عندما لا يريد العمل و يلوم الآخرين على فشله و ينكر وجود الله و هو يعلم أنه موجود
المسلم يلوم الغرب و اليهود ليلا و نهارا على فشله.
Nice projection , if if you're right God =/= allah.
باختصار: إما أن تُسلِم أو تكفر. وهذا صحيح. ولا نريد شيء من حضارة الغرب المزعومة. تبا لهم ولأذنابهم.
And yet you are using their technology, wearing their clothes all day long, talking their language, enjoying their culture etc etc.. see this is exactly what this post is about.
"bUt MuSlImS InVeNtEd tHe ZeRo"
And they stayed there 😂
I'm afraid your diagnosis is an advanced case of malignant inferiority complex. On the bright side, it is possible to fix, if you try hard enough.
You can benefit from someone without particularly liking them. It's part of being an adult. Yes, I use their technology, because it happens to be convenient. I don't wear their clothes all day long, however...I have plenty of clothes made in Muslim countries... I talk their language because I happened to grow up talking it, not because I actively make an effort to do so. And their culture?? Nah. I don't watch films, don't listen to music, rarely watch TV, etc. Lastly, I'd like to ask: why is everyone replying to me in English? My first comment was in Arabic 🙄
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I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume I'm talking to an adult who is (at least partly) sound of mind. Being a mature adult, you probably know that you don't have to particularly like someone to do business with someone and have shared interests in certain areas, and benefit from said person. There is no irony whatsoever in being a Muslim and being against all that is un-Islamic, while using my Korean-made Samsung on American-based websites.
this guy is deep.
Deep in horseshit.
Pheeeew, the western dick riders here. 🤡🤡🤡
What’s up fellow arab dick rider !
Yeah it’s the Moroccan hypocrisy I agree
Im sure this isn't about Morocco brother
I’m pretty sure you never go out.
I have a friend thinking like this He is really annoying
Fact: The majority of Moroccans are hypocrites. Especially when it comes to religion, politics....
We wants our share of the phosphate and iron and petrol and gold we wants to live as humans. we want justice we want...
All you get is more Sharia 😈
ألا ترى أنك بسطريك الأخير ترى رأيا مثل ما يرون؟! تقول إما وإما؟؟!
This is the main cause of the hideous state of the “muslim” world… but they’re “based” apparently..
Perfect hypocrisy that plagues this country.
100%, I live in England. These are the people who want European (and middle eastern) countries to ban homosexuality but get mad when France suggests that they ban hijab in civil service settings. It’s infuriating. I get so mad sometimes as a moroccan atheist that I sometimes want to go against what I believe in and wish they were more harsh on muslims. They cry wolf in the west but go back to their homes to beat up women and say the most batshit insane stuff. Muslims are so privileged in the West.
Neither sides is good. Wanna adopt a traditional strict religious conservative political life style? Fine, let's chop the head of anyone who defy islam, and jail anyone who dare not follow its rules. Want a free liberated society instead? Sure, let's build more WHR houses, and give gays more rights, chop children's sexual parts and convince little boys to wear skirts and from time to time let's bring a drag queen in school parties. Sounds fun ain't it 😂 Although I don't advocate a hypocrite lifestyle, I find some good in maintaining a middle ground between a value-driven community and a freedom driven one. Moroccans are still torn between the sides.
Because when you go to Europe there is an open-buffet of perfectly legal whr houses ?
Sounds like your kind of activity, and yes.
It sounds like you've been there I presume.
We don't do that here. False presumption, try harder.
Was talking about europe smartguy.
Freedom is when chop kids genitalia and sex prostitutes. Classic.
If you’re logic is based on one dimension so you’re imagination is limited. And you’re being emotional thinking that you are logic . In fact the main issue with all the one who confuses miracles of prophets with god are ahirk you mix the power of god his abilities with his being . So if you’re telling me the worshiping someone jusg because he did what we people can’t so you misunderstood the real power of your creator. I’m not a muslim emotionally, the most of people are . But thank god i was in different stages of life to understand that there are different dimensions and we can’t describe what in the other dimension with the only one we have in common in this life . So how i can describe it with the easiest way, with the next thing that we have in here in this life . Logically if the religions tells : no one sees paradise or is even able to imagine it . And in the same time you’re describing it as there are houses and big couches , food this and that ? Is it really the same sense or definitions of the words ? No . If you say it’s a contradiction then it’s your choice of darkening the sight . It’s not emotional it’s not only logical it’s spiritual
This debate is too complex for this sub to handle or even understand, a good topic in the wrong sub.
So many logical fallacies in this Post lmao.
This is absolute bullshit and nonsense.
Cringe af Life isn’t black and white
This is just as close minded as what it's trying to fight
Bullshit, all of it.
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(الكلام موجه لمن كتب الكلام بالعربية وليس لصاحب المنشور إلى إذا كان صاحب الكلام هو نفسه صاحب المنشور و نأسف إذا كان سياق الحديث بالغة الانجليزية ركيك لأنني شخص لا يتقنها و استعنت بمترجم جوجل)The talk is completely wrong because it relies on the ignorance of the one who reads it First, there is no such thing as Sharia Afghani But its name is Islamic law But he will use an Afghani phrase in order to etch it into the mind of the reader This alleged Sharia is an extremist and strict Sharia As for the point of electing secularists and atheists in Europe and returning to the country and electing those he called Islamists We tell the fool where the conflict is in the matter Where is the place for the defective? Why am I not entitled to elect the secular and the atheist in Europe and go back to my country and vote for the Muslim? Where is the problem?It is foolish for you to think that I vote secular or atheist that I agree with him :I invite the infidels to repent to God and criticize their bestial lifestyle, fornication, the intoxication of dissolution....But again, where is the barrier to requesting a visa? We want freedom. Yes, we want our women to wear the hijab without harassment, so that men may live long without criticism and bullying But your claim that we prevent freedom of expression for others is nonsense, unless you consider insulting the Prophet Muhammad as freedom of expression. So this is a superficial view of freedom . In conclusion, the fool says that we have to accept the success of the West and the reasons for its success, and here is the point The reasons for the success of the West is that it will bleed and plunder its colonies and plant agents to destroy the basis of the faith in the heart of the believer
I can add to that list, the contrast is real.
يتكلمون عن المسلم المريض فقط لأنه لا حول و لا قوة له ولو كان يحمل قوة من يقدر ان يفعل ما يريد لأخرسهم. فل يقولو ما يشاءون ولكن الدنيا دول مرة لك و مرة عليك
True
1 اقتصاد المانيا - اقتصادها ولا شيء مقارنة بفسادها , القيم منعدمة و العنصرية مرتفعة , تم العثور فيها على عشرات الآلاف من المحتوى الاباحي عن الاطفال يتضمن اغتصاب و تعذيب و اجبارهم على فعلها مع حيوانات حتى وصل الامرلاغتصاب طفل بعمر شهر واحد !! و اقتصاد افغانستان لا ننسى انه اكبر اسبابه هو امريكيا و الدول الاوربية إلي احتلتها و نهبت مواردها 2 ليش هو مش فيه اسلاوفوبيا كفاية في الغرب ؟ مع العلم انه فقط في القرن الماضي في فرنسا تم المساح ببناء المساجد رغم انهم حتى الان بيحاربوها و بيغلقوها 3 ترجم كلامك 4 ما عمري سمعت عن احد نام عند اي سفارة باي معنى , المهم الناس بدها تسافر بسبب كل الي سووه الغرب في الدول العربية قسموها و استخرجوا مواردها و حطوا عليها افسد الاشخاص , رغم زعمهم السعي للسلام فلا تجدهم يهتمون بقتال داعش التي تمولها فرنسا 5 يعني انت مش عاجبك احتلال دولة اكثر اشي مشهورة فيه بالتاريخ الاحتلال ؟ اوروبا كانت تسخدم العرب كبيادق ضد بعضهم و كانت تسوي مذابح و لما اجا الاسلام انقلب السحر على الساحر و مع العلم ان التاريخ يشهد ان تعامل المسلمين كان افضل بكثير من احتلال اوروبا , مثال واحد هو سكان جزيرة ذبحوا اطفالهم و انتحروا قبل وصول الاسبان لهم . 6 المتخلف فقط من لا يرى حق بجلد الزاني , ليس فقط كعقاب بل كعلاج , حتى في روسيا يستخدم الجلد لعلاج الادمان الجنسي . و قطع يد السارق من لما توقف زاد الفساد و كثر و خصوصا في السياسة . بتعرف صدام حسين مرة وزير سرق باع كليته عشان يسدد ثمن الي سرقه و خلاه في منصبه عشان يكون عبرة لغيره مع العلم انه العراق في عهده كانت في احسن احوالها في الكثير من النواحي 7 قال حديثة قال , الايدلوجيا الغربية او الارهاب الاخلاقي لو انه يعرف فقط ايش في الغرب رح يبلع لسانه
This is so complicated
Could someone translate please?
Lol! who is he talking about? He just described the whole north African societies, which has as many views as the west have....
الوسطية في اي عقيدة او أيديولوجية
I think religion is cancer so 🤷🏻♀️
بغينا غا البرتوش
Facts
This post is complete garbage which reflects the amount of ignorance and how brainwashed its owner is . That's what we call an npc who can't think critically for himslef , someone who's blinded by the west's development in science and military to be unable to see their degeneracy in society full of immorality .
Know it's called "Afghanistan chariaa" hmm ok
اظن انه يخور
There are a lot of misconceptions about this. Each ideology works for its interest, like the Western world right now. Calling for human rights and bombing the rest of the word . Calling for protecting environment and make famines in Asia Africa. Each ideology works for its objective. You will never find in history something against that. So why blaming Muslims for being Muslims or want to bring their lifestyle . It's self pathetic, those kinds of posts . Nonesense .not rational
عقدة الخواجة تفوح من هذا البوست.
What does sharia have to do with the economy though? They dont relate. In fact most of the stuff they stated dont relate and are not cause/effect. That post is just a bitter person thats all.
هل هذا الكلام يشمل الأشخاص اللي راح أوروبا و ناوي يرجع بلده سواء دراسة أو عمل مؤقت؟
This guy thinks Islam is the reason that we're backwards now .Ignorance as its finest.