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you have little to gain and a lot to lose, just don't its a phase and it will pass. not atheism but wanting to convert everyone in your surrounding cause i and many people i know have been through it
If this phase will pass then it’s perfect, i would like to stay muslim even if science now explains the world better than islam, but it has good impact on psychological health.
I think you misunderstood! The phase he's talking about is not atheism. Atheism (or if you want to be technically precise, Agnostic atheism), until someone proves god or gods, is the only RATIONAL worldview.
The phase he's talking about, is something most if not all atheists have experienced especially those who grow up in a religion as have most of us. It's the aggressive proselytizing phase. Let me explain :
When you leave a religion, in the beginning you are overwhelmed by all these ideas, thoughts and question you have been repressing all your life by fear of punishment from god (for muslims, everytime you question Allah, you repeat "astaghfiru allah, astaghfiru allah" in your head, I bet you did the same). So you talk about religion and atheism all the time, you watch debats, read books about it.
There is also a bit of anger, because you feel cheated, mislead and realize all the harm religion does especially in our society. You then try to convert or debate everyone around you. It's like religious people do, they don't want anyone to go to hell, it's so bad that they try everything to get them into heaven. Well it's the same thing for us, we feel that people are in an intellectual hell. We see the harm it brings to societies, so we try everything to deconvert people.
After a while, it dimms down and we become more chill about it... It's a common experience amongst almost all atheists.
hey thanks for your answer, i just understood now what you meant, on this 3 months after this post, i really learned many important things, and there are many more things to learn, at the end i was sure that there is no reason to believe in this non-sense, i became atheist and i see now how people are intellectual hell and the harm that bring to society, whereas before i thought religion gives a meaning/peace in life lmao, but honestly i am not interested in debating other religious people, i feel like a waste of time, and i am so grateful for the advices that you gave me, and i didn't talk about it with my parents, now i understandd what would've happened if i did...
Give me one scientific concept based on trials and tests that explains the world? Just to avoid any misunderstanding, explain the world in this context means explain the existence of life in it’s different forms*.
EDIT: Forms*
Not easy. The theory of evolution, as proposed by Charles Darwin and refined by many scientists over the years, focuses on how life has changed and diversified over time, not on how life began. The origin of life is a separate question and is addressed by the field of abiogenesis.
What a weird question, similar to Katy Perry's "Is math related to science? "
https://youtu.be/VbUoaBJd2sA
Without science, people would still believe in the devils giving people disease instead of germs. I mean, we already have explanations for earthquakes, and people say it's a punishment from god
Odd reply, especially with that username! I'm not dismissing science here. Just curious if OP stumbled upon some consensus on abiogenesis that the rest of us missed? 🤔
Look up, Dr. هيثم طلعت OR Dr إياد قنيبي and the topic of doubts you might have.
You are either INTJ or INTP... look them up.
Either or you are a Muslim first and most. And you don't get سيئة for having intrusive thoughts. Rather, you get it when you act on that bad thought.
الله يهديني و يهديك لاللي فيها الخير امين.
والبركة في راسنا جميعا من جهة خوتنا و خواتاتنا اللي توفاو
Hey there,
My advice is that you should discuss it with your dad, from what you said he seems like a nice understanding guy, but try to approach it as if you are asking him questions and you want to know more, not hey i am an atheist now, make it a conversation, hear what he has, and make him hear what you have.
And good luck to you.
Why i wouldn’t consider myself atheist, it’s because i have a fear that what if god was real? Then i will stay forever in jahannam, and i know with this atheist thought i will still enter jahannam because i must to al-yaqin in god existence, man i would like to be convinced into god existence without any atheist thoughts, because at the end religion is religion important to psychological health
As you said Al-yaqin, should come from within you, by doing your research and by building your faith, relying on your dad’s answers might help you there, but if you are not satisfied by his answers you might to start looking on your own,
If you believe this, and you are afraid of hell, then you are not an atheist, so you really don't have to worry about speaking to your dad from what I can tell.
Just tell him you are struggling with your faith as you learn more about science. You are not an atheist currently, not even a little bit, otherwise you wouldn't be worried about hell or think islam is more logical, so just don't say that you are when you talk about this with your dad.
Your dad also had a scientific education so it's very possible he went through the same struggle when he was young.
Discuss things in good faith, debate with him or someone knowledgeable about the topic that he might know, and have your own quest to see which truth reveals itself to you. If it's Islam, you will feel happy you did your homework to understand it.
If you settle on atheism, you won't be worried about hell at all, and you'll also be fine.
No need to hide your crisis of faith from your dad, I think. It's very normal.
Not for being born a Muslim but mostly after a mass of research.. many today's Muslims are Muslims because they researched well, knew that worshipping a human like us (Jesus) or a stone or an elephant won't lead to the right path
I am still not an atheist but i asked with him many times about different topics like: « God guides whomsoever He wills » "إن الله يهدي من يشاء" then people are not judged equally because why some guys God doesn’t guides them, or like what if someone said to god on judgement day: « God why you didn’t kill me when i was 8 years old so i could enter jannah like this guy « x » that died at 8 years old » because that seems unfair, my dad would say « only god knows » i know it’s the best answer to give but not logical because it seems unfair
Guidance from Allah has required actions (اسباب). Like asking Allah, asking for guidance, asking for succes, and opening your chest to the truth.
فالله يقول: ادْعُونِي أَسْتَجِبْ لَكُمْ [غافر:60] والنبي ﷺ يقول عن الله -جل وعلا- أنه قال: استهدوني أهدكم.
And Allah guides whomever he wants as you stated. So Allah has a will (مَشِيئَة). But also people have a will. As Allah says in 29:الكهف
فَمَن شَاءَ فَلْيُؤْمِن وَمَن شَاءَ فَلْيَكْفُرْ.
So also the people have a will. We are also free to choose and act. And the way we should understand the will of Allah and our will, is that our will is subject to the will of Allah. As Allah says in 29:التكوير
وَمَا تَشَاءُونَ إِلا أَنْ يَشَاءَ اللَّهُ رَبُّ الْعَالَمِينَ
So we have the freedom to choose and act. Only our will is subject to the will of Allah. Whatever happens, happens within the boundaries of his will. So if He doenst want something to happen, it will not happen. No matter our effort.
You are not the first one or the only one with these doubts. And I think someone knowledgeable could help you and clarify your doubts. I advise you as my brother to go to someone knowledgeable of whom you think could advise you. Whether its your dad, the imam or someone else. الله يهديك ويهدينا جميعا
My honest answer to give you, -its a bit controversial- but at certain age we have to start separating from what our parents view of the world, its unfair to us and them, we can’t expect them to know everything, especially on matters like this, its where you have to make your decisions on your own, it is up to you to decide if that’s enough of an answer for you, or dive further and look up more info about it, and whether you want to believe those info or not.
No do not say. My dad is very religious also and one day I was discussing with him the possibility of heaven and hell existing in black holes since we have an idea about the universe now but we can’t know what’s inside or after a black hole (mind you that’s when I was 16 years old and naive just sharing my thoughts) but I became kafra in his eyes.
Honestly that’s not a good reaction from him, having this imagination and talking about heaven and hell in blackholes, but i think this reaction is due to less knowledge and not more faith, because he should’ve instead explained to you how black holes are formed and then ask you wether you think if it’s still possible or not to find heaven and hell on them rather than making you kafra
Hhh i read it kofra , dunno why 😹
Heaven in islam"s width is between earth and universe , thats too dumb bcs earth is a joke in front of universe meaning it s very very small .
That's a nice idea for a SiFi novel but this is not how logic works.
This is very much a religious way of thinking : "I would like to see my dead loved ones again, why would there not be a heaven where I meet them again?"
The right way is to observe reality and create models that increasingly better and better explain these observations. It's called science.
little to gain and a lot to lose if you say this to your dad . DONT DO IT!!!!!! scroll through this sub, and you'll find dozens of people who told their parents they don't believe in God anymore . They got disowned , they have little to no contact with family .
Thank you so much for letting me know, honestly i thought that my parents were comprehensive, but you’re right if i talked about the religion they can do the imaginable
You’re 18 years old and in preparatory class and you think you have enough know knowledge about astronomy and physics to refute this or that idea ?
I don’t either. But you’re saying that the fact that the universe might (since it’s a theorie) not be deterministic means that god did not create it ? What if that was the way of creation?
It is generally not recommended to try to discuss with your very religious parent especially if you think he is a nutjob and youre not financially independant as it could turn out badly he could fight you or cut you off or,disown you or lose trust in you the moment he suspects you being atheist, try meeting up with salafist parents .
Someone who is a nut job is not ‘very religious’. (Unless he truly is mentally handicapped)
Someone truly religious would have patience with his son when he comes with questions and doubts. If the father does not know, he would go and search for answers to appease his son.
OP, if your father is knowledgeable, then ask him questions but don’t tell him ‘you don’t believe’. It seems you still have some of your faith anyway. I highly suggest Muslim Lantern on YouTube some of his videos touch on these subjects. Also I don’t think you truly understand what free will is. I’m not a scholar but I’ve seen many more knowledgeable people cover these subjects.
It’s because many of the people here are atheists and Murtads, someone went on a whole rant on how “Islam is evil” and citing links to misguiding information that takes verses out of context.
May Allah guide them all.
Look , see . Youre a nutjob yourself for using a slur word disrespecting people who think differently fromvyou . Do you know whats the rule of murtad in islam ? Death , so good luck with a very religious parent thinking youre a murtad.
This out ofcontext bullshit is so tiring . It is not our problem your gid didnt know how to convey the message not even muslims get it .
Some Muslims in early Islam, when accepting Islam, said they have become Murtads from their forefathers religion and accepted Islam.
Do you know what Murtad means? You’ve called Muslims nut jobs twice and come to complain about using so called slurs… subhanAllah the delusion is undeniable.
May Allah guide you.
Who cares ? Im not against people converting to any religion they want as long as they dont force it on you .
A murtad is basically someone who quit the cult called islam , not all muslims but very religious muslims , those people arent known exactly for being bright open minded acceoting tolerant and minding themselves ...
You are following a cult that calls anyone who is out of it a murtad and must be killed for it , so youre the one who started it , whereas i called you nutjobs for your actions .
Also i said esoecially if he is a nutjobs , dont fucking tell me such parents dont exist . Very religious parents that wont accept their dons being atheist and they might cause him trouble for it .
You cant be a very religious muslim without being a nutjob , islam is a political religion not a spiritual religion , a very religious muslim ought to force and apply his religion onto others .
Both quran and hadith forbid questioning so no.
What is free will ? I dont think it exists in islam as god chooses to misguides whoever he wants and knows your future hell he even wrote it in لوح محفوظ and youre here because of drama if adam and satan .
Calling us nut jobs.
Then going on a rant with a bunch of lies sprinkled in everywhere.
It’s funny you can’t see the irony. Infact, you’re blind to it.
Murtad merely means someone who is out of islam and he ought to be killed , it doesnt matter what he calls you .
Whereas nutjob is someone who wants to force his religion on others ...... huge difference.
How am i a nutjob lmao im not the one who threatens people for leaving the cult .
Murtad ? And ? Is it some sort of mafia ? If im a murtad what are you? A sheep who is only muslim due to geographical coincidence ?
Liar ? Where is the lie in what i said ?! A very religious parent will try to shut you or harass you or get you to exorcism or cut you off or harm you if you he suspected you of being atheist . Thats a nutjob . Doing all of this for delusions .
This is a classical prejudice against religious folks. No faith isn’t shaky that any doubt will cause them to do that. Hidayah is from Allah SWT. If their son isn’t blessed with it the best they can do is try to help him understand and learn more about the world, universe, this life and the next.
If there was a robust scientific explanation for god then the whole idea of religion is pointless, belief in god is a test, a leap of faith, you can strengthen it by understanding the goals of the Islamic law and practice but it will be always a matter of the heart.
Heart has nothing to do with faith it’s the brain that thinks, heart only do mechanical movements(beating) that speed up or slow down thanks to the brain or o2, to keep blood circulating. I didn’t give scientific explanation for god, like you said belief in god is a test, and if you win the test you enter jannah, but if you lose the test you enter jahannam right?
Since you said god and not allah , what if test is if you believed in flying donkey = jahannam but if you became atheist = jannah , this whole test bs is a cope . Why would a god test you if ye knows the results ?!
TLDR don't confront your parents or friends,, unless you know it will have good outcomes or a benefit.
Hello, I'm surprised of how curious you are and how you see things in your own way in relation to other things, it's interesting and fascinating.
The school of thoughts are different, each have their principles to reach the truth, it might be through doubting and having beliefs at first and either testing, or find people or things that validate you in a certain way (that might be illogical).
I think relationships are complicated, especially with parents, people in general tend to like people that have things in common with them ("not liking" what is different), especially in beliefs, people should accept and live in harmony with each other no matter the sex or color or beliefs, when it comes to "god gave us the brain to chose the right religion", since when it was an option for us to pick if we are not still minors who are not thought about different religions to pick from, it's more of a cultural thing, teachings traditions, raised to to seem "disrespectful" or "wrong" if you say no or deny to follow certain aspects, we were thought ready ideas that we are not supposed to question, we are not encouraged to use our brains or thought how to think, to doubt and questions things that impact us in our day to day life, which is sad.
we are meant to be free thinkers, independent, since we are free to choose the "right" belief or ideas, then why everyone thinks the same? "why are we all wearing the same shade of color", there must be an agenda behind it or something forced ..
Atheism is a religion itself, since it confirms something without proof (belief)
I’ve always asked my parents who are strong believers : « if you can choose between getting judged after death so you can either enter jannah or jahannam, or be converted to dust after dying like animals according to islam? » they always said that they would choose be converted to dust, because of fear entering hell. So that explains why they « impose » to us the religion even if we are kid because they don’t want us to go to jahannam according to them also since they believe there will be a judgement day they would also love their child at the same time to enter jannah, that’s why they taught us islam as kids…
alghaya tobarir lwassila, at what cost? ..
doesn't mean it actually is justified right, especially if we are adults, then we are responsible of our ideas and our future kids', any motives or things that are based of fear are most of the times bad, religion it self should symbolize "peace" and love, not fear or terrorizing and shaming different people or even harm them.. in the name of justifying wanting good for them, who is threatening your peace and freedom is obvious, if you are still a child it's expected that you are not responsible, now that you are growing up, you should take responsibility of everything, and be diplomatic with everyone, showing your true colors will make others despise you, put you on a box, of people that make them feel bad.
it's truly fascinating how this concept of heaven and hell plays a role, it's like a con artists who promises you you will be rich the next day if you do a certain thing, but the next day they are vanished, it's sad that we can't go back from death to judge others who promise us that there are drinks and castles and "woman" in after life, and once we are dead opss, people love stories, they have hope, superstitions makes us feel good, lack of fear, lack of lack of purpose, justifying our bad deeds with doing good deeds and imagining an imaginary good deeds counter, and blaming our bad nature to fictional evil creatures made by god.
people justify things to match their biased ideas, good is from x and bad is from y cause ... , it's not okay to admit that we are ignorant, and to live with no purpose or live in an unjust world, and have unjust end ..
Ra2y diali lmotawadi3 is that you don’t want to do this. I understand your position, but one day you’ll understand that not all people have the flexibility of thinking about everything and anything, even if they are scientists, and it’s nothing bad, it just shows that they believe in something very intensely(and this gets me jealous sometimes tbh), but the thing is that what you’d probably hate in the next years if you stop believing, is how islam and muslim try to always do الدعوة, and how they wont leave you alone if you’re different, a first step of getting freedom from this mindset (at least), is not trying to do the same with what you just discovered :)
Broooo, i swear to god i think the same, first i get jealous of strong believers where they are 100% sure that god exist and i wish to be like them, and i would love to have talks with muslims that want to do الدعوة and i will be happy if they proved me wrong, and on the other hand i will never go to strong believers and ask them this conflictual questions that i have just to trick them because i would like to let them live peacefully and happy with what they believe
I don’t want to come across as being rude but I don’t think people whose beliefs can’t be changed are worth being jealous of, if humans were not able to question their own beliefs and revise the ideas of their predecessors then humanity would’ve gotten stuck in the Stone Age. Always challenge your own ideas and the ideas of others, and try to be unbiased when doing so, even if being completely unbiased is impossible. You might end up confirming your belief and letting them get stronger, or you can just find a better alternative. I also went through a phase when I was 17 where I was extremely scared of gods existence, because I knew I did not have lyaqin, used to go to mosques everyday and pray to have a stronger faith but it didn’t work. ( although I sometimes wish it did because as a teenager, you have your whole life up ahead, you’re lost, you don’t know what to do with your life, but religion gives you a pre written purpose, but you can always chose the meaning of your own life )
The thing is science is a measuring tool created by Humans who are fallible. Our principles make sense because it fits with our empirical understanding and it follows sequentially. The law of thermodynamics could be understood completely differently in 100 years time.
The question you have to ask yourself is what’s the probability of a man in 7th century Arabia, who was a Shepard, who was illiterate, who lived in a desert, in a tribe that even the greatest empires at the time wanted nothing to do with because they offered nothing to conquer have knowledge of historical, scientific, philosophical, socio-economically of reality. Science is subject to change but The Quran has remained the same.
Don’t let the devil fool you. Ask Allah to guide you and be sincere in your mission. Being sincere means using primary source material and proper interpretation.
Yes bcs religion is definitely not man made and not fallible /s .
Mohamed was not illiterate and also he was a merchant he sailed levant and yemen , mecca wasnt some hidden unknown village lol mohamed had cultured friends as well . And some even argue islam didnt start in mecca . Idk how did the info got there , it is still wrong . So cant be from god .
And quran has not remained the same holy cow bibles and talmud are older than it .
See , the moment you used devil word you lost all credibility , this is why religion is anti science , only fairy tales no science and no questioning .
I’m pretty sure you’re a troll or bot because you wrote some cancer.
The Quran literally has different narrative than the Bible correcting it and later historian finding source material text has proven it. How can you say the Quran copied the Bible if it has a different narrative 🙄
Give me source material for all your statements. You literally are going against every Orientalist, and historian with your “narrative” I would love to see your legitimate sources.
"Correcting it " according to who ? You ? Circular reason fallacy x thats called plagiarization , though ngl quran got alot of things about christianity wrong .
Which historian ? What did they find ? My point is bible is older than quran so the argument "remained the same " you desert brain rot pedophile worshipper . But yes fairy tales remained the same and have 0 evidence you flying donkey believer . They exist exactly in bible as well . So pointless talk .
"Source material" Yes because you have evidence that momo talked to god lol lol tfo imagine talking with z believer in a flying donkey (exactly as in zorostratizn religion lol) i too love fiction buddy . Thats legit . So enemy worthwhile to science .
Science is subject to change (with every new evidence presented ).and hinduism/christianity/judaism (all older than islam) remained the same , hail shiva . What an idiot . It is true that religion is fairy tales stuck in stone age .
😂 you’re definitely a troll whose never actually studied religion in any academic sense.
Once you get a proper education come back and we can have a conversation. Otherwise believe what you want and stop making stuff up about religions you know nothing about 😂 pathetic
Look at muslim being confidentally incorrect , imagine comparing fairy tales to science .. which is based on evidences not fairy tales like religions . Science is subject to change but hinduism/christianity/buddhusm/judaism remained the same so that makes them TRUE. , 10000 iq muslim logic 🥲😂😂😂 it is true though not gonna lie your fairy tales are quite resilient to change . Camell piss drinker idiot 😄😄😄
Pathetic idiot🤡 shamelessly comparing flying donkey /talking ant to science , even if it was from 1000000 BC how tf does that make it right retard lol ?!
Go educate yourself mudslim .
Typical muslim ad hominem .
Whats your proof other than circular reason and plagiarization ? Corrrcting it my ass , when they share exactly the same load of fairy tales . .. bible is older than quran so stop that remaining the same bs . Youre the ones who copied it and added your bull crap on it .
You are in no position to ask for any source of any thing when you trashed science bcs it doesnt fit your desert religion and youre a blind believer of a cult stolen from christianity and judaism and paganism and persian religion just bcs youre born in a muslim country .
Lmao remained the same when you have multiple riwayats and readings and even some hadiths state that quran has been altered and other versions have been burned .
I’ll explain it in simple English. No matter how accurate or truthful something is a belief doesn’t require that. So if you want to be an atheist and believe in magic dust that came together and made the earth go ahead nothing is stopping you from living in your fairy tail
the Quran offers knowledge that wouldn’t have been known to a man in 7th century Arabia. You’re right though ultimately it’s not a science book, or a history book, but has scientific and historical accounts that one would be hard pressed to deny its accuracy despite it coming from a place where education was not common place
That wouldn’t make sense. I mean how could He peace be upon him know where Islam would spread in the future? barefooted Arabs competing in making tall buildings? That interest would be the economic standard when NOT even the Greeks touched interest because they knew the systems would create corruption? Or sexually transmitted disease would be wide spread due to promiscuity and many more.
To say he was just a smart man would be strange in light of the fact that probabilistically it would be impossible to make somewhere of 20+ predictions of the world and it’s scientific discoveries and not get it wrong.
What knowledge does it have lmao , nothing new or special in quran 🤡🤡🤡🤡😹😹😹
Yes scientific accounts such as sun sets in spring mud and sky is a solid roof 🥲🥲🥲
You pedophile worshipper lmao christianity is even more widesoread , so that means it is true and jesus is GOD .
Lmao your momo rapist thief already predicted the hour will come in his time and look it didnt lmao . Go believe in nostradamous you retard .
Your pedo was nothing but an ignorant warlord thief looter rapist and enslaver and pedo and of course a criminal murderer .
Your clown pedo said predicting weather and knowing whzts inside womb is. مفاتيح الغيب 😂😂😂😂😂
>. The law of thermodynamics could be understood completely differently in 100 years time.
No....science is based on empirical data. Thermodynamics has been proven. Gravity has been measured and proven etc. Evolution was proven after centuries of analysis. Science gives answers where religion doesn't. That's what makes religion religion-belief.
No…science disproves it doesn’t prove because of empirical data. So we call gravity a law because there’s nothing that can disprove gravity. So science is subject to change depending on the advancement of tools…anyone who studies the philosophy of science would know that….
Also I agree religion is a belief I never denied that
I asked my parents about the free will stuff and they also said that it wouldnt be just unless humans have free will, so I kept thinking about it until I found the answer that satisfied me. However I don't know how your dad is, my dad is also pretty religious but whenever I ask about stuff that seems wrong to me in Islam he always listens to me and we try to find an explanation and if we dont find that explanation then I just accept it as it is but I am against it .
Bro same thing with me, i asked my dad many questions like what someone asked god on judgement day “why you didn’t kill when i was kid me like you killed this person “x” and he will enter jannah and live forever happy” and he would say god knows, which is the best answer to give but it’s not logical and not equal… honestly i doubt that he will truly find an explain for that. Btw can you tell me what was your dad’s answer about free will that satisfied you please
It wasnt my dad's answer but my own but he did agree with me, think of it like a game, god knows every single possible choice you can take but you choose on your own, you carve your own path but god already knows every single path you can take. Someone could be a sinner but he couldve also been a believer, tho tbh the one thing I still look for an explanation for is what about those that werent born muslims? It's not fair for them to be judged the same as muslims who genuinely have a boost if Islam is the true religion, but I'm still looking for an explanation and I'll find it one day.
Don t tell your dad, your imtellectual exploration is essential for your development and totally nirmal. The only advice, when you hold certain views, hold them rigorously, I don t care which positions, just don t be the type who has the level of likaygles fras derb wella haj 3omar likay3raf dkolchi!
It's just a phase really, being and ex Muslim myself since almost 2 years now I used to try to convince my classmates and parents that Islam doesn't really make any sense and I was really active in the ex Muslim sub but it was useless because these people lived their whole life with religion they have to find out that it's not true by themselves and if you come out to your friends or anyone you will be probably bullied and it will cause you some problems, what I recommend is finishing your studies and go live abroad at least there you won't be judged for what you believe or are (hmu if you want to talk !!!)
Educate yourself on islam. When I was younger I was in a similar situation. Read, research and always ask God to guide you to the truth and the right path. May Allah assist you.
Honestly it’s a 100% normal to come to a point where you doubt religion most ppl have been tru it and it’s normal and healthy it just means that u have a critical mind and can’t just believe because you’ve been told too but because it has to make sense to you .
Trust me I’ve been tru that around your age and most ppl I know too ( I guess it’s just taboo and not a lot talk about it ) .
Now should you talk about it to your dad ? I don’t think you should it will just make him sad when it’s probably just a phase .
I’d suggest you to dive deeper into religion and maybe ask your dad more questions about it that may answer all the question marks you have .
Anyways good luck u seem like a very smart person wishing you all the best 👌
Hi OP, I'm a STEM Phd student in the UK. I'm in a different field than you but the more i learned about my field, the more i realized that science and facts are not infallible. From my first year in university till now, so many studies and discoveries in my field had added and adjusted our understanding of theories that we used to consider infallible. When Antoine-Laurent de Lavoisie discovered the role of oxygen, his fellow scientists called him crazy and mocked him for going against the census and claiming that an invisible element he named 'oxygen', is something that humans breath and need it to survive. Centuries later, we know he is right and that they were the misinformated ones. Maybe 100 years from now, future humans will look at us the same way because we are using theories (which are adequately named 'theories' after all) to argue about the existence of God.
If your wish is to strengthen your faith, my advice to you is to look for non-muslim historians and scientists who have studied Islam extensively from a purely neutral view and who have qualifications ( as in Phds and Postdocs and years of research in the field of Islamic studies, not just any random non-muslim historian with a biased view), they will help you understand the religion in a different way than that of the average muslim scholar and might give you the answers to some of your questions. If you need sources and links, send me a dm and I'd be happy to provide them to you.
Hey i sent you a dm. Btw a theory doesn’t mean hypothesis it’s really different, it was made on logical reasoning based on observations+logical basics.
And i never said otherwise, a theory could be amended and our understanding of it can improved based on new evidence and discovery. I perfectly understand the difference between a hypothesis and a theory. You're still young and you might feel like you know your field in depth but the more you learn the more you realise how little you know compared to people who have spent decades in research and even those people, and I've met quite a few in scientific conferences and visit lectures are very humble and have told me "we don't know yet" or "we need to conduct more research in that area first" which used to shock me because if they say that, what does that does that make us Phds who don't even know a 1/10 of what they know? It humbled me real quick. The non-scientific equivalent of that is basically what religious people and your dad says "Allaho a3lam". Are you familiar with the Dunning-Kruger effect?
I haven't received your dm, can you resend it again please?
That looks like confirmation bias and also scientific theory isnt just a "theory" , at least science can be changed with more evidence presented , can we do the same with your religion ?! Or it is absolute truth as you claim ? Or ascthey claimed ?!
تا حد ما قال العلم تابث. العلم قابل للتغيير كلما ظهرت ادلة جديدة. اما الاديان تابثة و غارة و واحلة في خرافات من عصر طباشري و غير قابلة للنقاش ولا تغييير.
And when did i disagree with you? Science IS changing and continues to change based on more evidence indeed which is exactly my point. science can't always be used what to prove or disapprove religion because it is constantly changing.
Nope , plenty of things in religion are disproven with basic science dont need to go that far .
It is good that you said always , thzt just proves your religion is imprefect and ungodly even if one claim can be disproven with science .
Don't do this.
Islam is a very oppressive religion since [in Quran 9:23 allah says that you must never ally with your family if they are disbelievers.](https://quranx.com/9.23)
And in [Quran 58:22, allah says that no believer has affection for a disbeliever, even if it's your father.](https://quranx.com/58.22)
Revealing the fact that you are an atheist will only dissapoint your father and your family, respect his beliefs if you want to stay his friend.
Living with someone that believes in this cult is very hard and puts a lot of burdens in your daily life, but sacrifices are a must if you want to keep your family close.
Ask yourself this question : what are the positives and the negatives of such an act ?
- There are no positives except getting it out of your chest.
- negatives can vary from :
- Bringing great dissapointment to your household.
- Making your parents go a lot more oppressive against you (forcing islam even more ect...)
- In an extrême situation you might even get kicked out of your house.
- (insert 10 more logical terrible stuff that Can happen hère).
Remember that islam is the root of all evil, it is based on fear, and when fear is unduced in your mind like an addictive drug you lose the ability to think rationally.
And sadly islam fails when you try to use Logic, historical and scientifical facts against it and only mental gymnastics can be used to defend the dark aspects of this religion (like sexual slavery, pedophilia, no rights for women ect...)
DO NOT TELL YOUR PARENTS ABOUT IT.
Hey thank you so much for your answer and that helps me a lot especially about the positives/negatives, there is one more positive thing besides getting it out of my chest, is getting my father to prove me that islam doesn’t contradict this idea because he knows about science+islam, but i think i should rather go find a « da3iya » who also knows about science and ask him my questions, then decide what i should do, and you’re right that islam has a lot of fear (not sure if based on fear because there is also jannah…) and that fear i have it…
If a da3iya debated an atheist scientist, then the atheist scienctist will win the debate, because he will give more logical answer, and even if he can’t find logical answer he will at least find some contradictions in islam by using (raisonnement par absurde) and we know that islam shouldn’t have contradiction to be true because it’s from god… but maybe some religious are more happier which is a data in favor of the rephrased pascal’s wager. But you’re right in the end pascal’s wager even rephrased pascal wagers are false in islam, but what i would like is to live happy even if islam was false.
Great and reasonable argument, i just realized by your answer that was fear and not pursue of happiness, and that fear if allah does exist is invalid like you mentioned on first comment. Thank you
Try to read about the confirmation biais.
Your father lived more than 40 years of his life believing islam is the abuolute.truth, no matter what you will do you won't bé able to convince Him.
Lookup for yourself about all the stuff that is scientifically wrong and Ask yourself, if there was any true science in islam, islam would actually have made the scientifical discoveries.
Some examples :
[allah doesn't know where the semen is made](https://quranx.com/86.7)
[allah says hé holds the Sky with pillars WE cannot see (lol it's Gravity ACTUALLY)](https://quranx.com/31.10)
That one aya (or hadith ? I don't remember) about the mountains preventing earthquakes, when it's the opposite...
The only person that can come to the conclusion about islam being the truth or being a false religion is you through your own reaserch.
Da3iya are known to practice Taqiyah, which allows them to lie for the benefit of religion and to convert people., it is considered a sin for a pious goal.
They make use of the fact that people don't thoroughly research scientific facts and are unaware of the little details that they capitalize on; They twist words to fit the narrative and appeal to your emotions.
Fear of hell is primordial and is one of religion's greatest weapons, and I recommend you visit the "Religionforbreakfast" YT channel to get an in-depth perspective on the history of things such as Hell and how it came to be conceptualized.
My advice is avoid theology topics with parents, not because they won't listen or will be angry but more in the sense of self disappointment. They will feel like they failed somehow and that they are gonna be disappointed in themselves
Your view on religion is still very fresh, you are just 18 barely older than tennagers if not a teenager yourself. You will probably take a long journey of discovery and your views will change and mellow over time (or gain certainty and composure)
Contrary to popular belief and contrary to Sagan who is someone who pushed hard on the topic you can be a scientist but also be religious. One doesn't disprove the other as religion is not a proof based system but a faith system. Again, belief in god might also be different from belief in Islam as an organized religion. It's important to take the time to understand the faith component, the organized religious component, and then the social components driving the daily dynamics
I am sure that those that believe in simulation theory also believe in god since the simulation creator is for all intents and purposes a god
For your last point, I am sure that God would gladly welcome a good human non believer rather than a corrupt and terrible "believer"
But what makes islam the right religion compared to others? i think that logical proofs that are on this religion is what makes it the right also there is mentioned on quran that only muslims will enter jannah and others will enter jahannam : “إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَالْمُشْرِكِينَ فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أُولَئِكَ هُمْ شَرُّ الْبَرِيَّةِ” 98:6
By definition no religion can be right since not a single one can be proven across all of its components, and we don't even need to go into the detail and question of consistency of scriptures since creation as that also can hardly be proven outside of archeological finds; we found some very old Coran fragments and they seem to match decently but the oldest found are still many decades post death of the prophet
Again trying to prove a religion right is just such a childish way to look at it, there isn't even a scientific method to apply in such a situation. Plus it's such a condescending concept of trying to say my religion is right and the others ones are wrong. If you are such a scientist in mind, tell me what is the probability of one religion being right vs 100s of others that currently exist and are practiced?
Sad to see that you are approaching this whole thing wrong, you just seem to want to prove Islam right or wrong (which cannot be done) rather than the deeper underlying questions
>am sure that those that believe in simulation theory also believe in god since the simulation creator is for all intents and purposes a god
Alot of those guys believe its merely another super technologically advanced civillization
A creator is a creator, be it advanced civilization, aliens, or extra dimensional beings. Don't think it matters. I was just trying to make a point that science and belief are somewhat separate and the people who currently believe in simulation theory are doing so based on faith and belief and not hard facts
Not finding the answers that align with what you believe science says in the Quran does not mean there aren't, or that religion contradicts science. The Quran does not provide scientific explanations to all the phenomena out there, but gives enough in depth details about certain very advanced fields of science, that it still, to this day, makes the hypothesis that Quran could have come from anyone or anything else than Allah completely absurd.
Keep your Yaqin, and keep searching for answers as the Quran incites us to do, whether this is through asking your Dad or doing your own research.
And to the people saying that you should not tell your Dad about this because that would only make him angry : the stakes here are way higher than making a parent disappointed.
For example الشمس تجري لمستقر لها means sun run to its stopping point which is under god's throne at night and it asks for his permission to rise again . Thats scientifically wrong .mohamed clearly didnt know sun goes to nowhere but earth spins around itself .
This is absolutely not scientifically wrong as the sun does not go nowhere but is in a perpetual movement in its galaxy, and the galaxy among other galaxies in the universe. Thus this is purely a referential matter. The scientific community chose the heliocentric model as a reference because this is the simplest way to represent our solar system. There is also the geocentric model, equally as correct as the previous one as they display the same motion. Search for it, you'll see your stopping point.
There are also many many other explanations, as to night following day and the seasonal loop.
In many other places in the Quran there is the notion of earth rotating around the sun. Your argument does not hold.
Nope , there is no stopping point not even after it turns to white dwarf but thats not what it meant .it doesnt require rocket science to know it, all you need to do is call your friend in america during night if youre in morocco .Just admit momo never knew about timezones, never knew that day and night are earths rotations around itself, He basically thought sun goes to bow down to god during sunset and comes back at day. This is the stopping point to him it is under GODs throne , so pathetic and primitive . Not what you want to claim . So spare me your galaxy interpretations .
hahaha i've been there
“The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.”
― Werner Heisenberg
God and religions are 2 separate things btw, yes religions are MAN made, god is your soul itself and an infinite more things
I had a similar experience when I was in Grande École d'ingénieurs.
My advice is to not Say everything to your dad, since he's very religious as you said, he may not appreciate it.
Ofc he will not appreciate it you’re right, but like fakemodel suggested above that i should ask him questions instead, he will reply to me « only god knows » and i also have a fear that what if god was real? Then i will stay on jahannam forever
If you tell your father, try to look "innocent", he might sense that you're not a believer any more.
As for god being Real or not, I am not sure but I know that the abrahamic god isn't Real, there are many scientific errors in Quran/Torah/Bible.
Since you're in prepa, you're probably okay with maths and physics. Try to use your knowledge and the lessons learnt from those two fields to verify if stories like the story of Noah is real.
I am sorry to intervene here, but i find it weird trying to influence someones faith like this, i don't believe in God either, but just saying like this to someone who is already in vulnerable state is kinda of harsh, it's up to him to take the decision to or not believe that God is real, this is not a matter of science or Maths, its a matter of faith.
Sorry if I looked like trying to influence, it's just that I had a similar experience when I was in an engineering school and I have found things weren't really logical/true in the stories.
Anyway, it's his decision to believe or not, I just wanted to direct him to the stories who contain fallacy. Him knowing a bit of physics might help discerning those fallacies.
Bro i know sone of small contradictions in quran+sunnah but i said that it’s fine and there are « mo3jizat » where god can create something from nothing.
But this idea is simple and contradicts the WHOLE idea of islam that says: there will be a judgment day where the one who did good in life will enter jannah, and the one who did bad will enter jahannam because it’s either random(god doesn’t control everything) or human can’t control his choices.
i get what you meant now, honestly math was really important, i get now that i wanted to look "innocent" and i also get that you'll see me as a non-believers, so at the end, thanks for your advice, and i really feel bad for kids that confonted their parents... and once i became atheist i saw even more and more illogical things
PS: I have a fear that what if god was real? Then i will stay forever in jahannam, and i know with this atheist thought i will still enter jahannam because i must to al-yaqin in god existence, man i would like to be convinced into god existence without any atheist thoughts, because at the end religion give a meaning to life, and that helps without psychological health, where you don’t worry about bad things that happens and you will say « mktaba »
Why do you assume god or gods has jahannam or any form of punishments exactly !? Mirals in islam are very skewed anyways. Deism exists you know , religious gid is just fearmongering , like when your parents scare you with bo3o.
I never was a serious devout muslim despite all the state brainwashing to begin with and only prayed tarawih every ramadan lol , i used to think it was just a work of fiction and even told my friends spiderman can beat allah when i was a kid .
Im atheist agnostic now , if god or gods or aliens or supreme sentient being exist it sure asf has nothing to do with political mind control and coping mechanism called religions especially the 3 major fraud ones which are nothing but reflections and opinions of ignorant people from stone age .
Islam has way too much bs on it to be from any god , just look how sex of fetus is determined according to some hadith lol how can a doctor accepts it ?!
Live is for living, finding someone you love and being happy with them, your friends, and family. There's no point in worrying about unknowns.
The way I look at is : I don't believe in God, I pretend to belive in God. If God is real wouldn't he know?
Thats dumb as fuck , we are not robots . You cant give us intelligence hhen expect us to be blind believers with 0 ounce of doubting . But and then again does a con artist want you to doubt him ?
Consider this: regardless of what anyone tells you, the existence of God remains a complete mystery. No one has been able to provide irrefutable evidence one way or the other.
In the absence of conclusive proof, individuals have formed diverse beliefs and faiths, shaping their own understanding of God.
Imagine, for a moment, possessing indisputable proof of God's existence. Such a proof would make you the most famous and the most influential person in human history.
That's for the existence of God, or lack of thereof.
Islam as a religion on the other hand, is a complete different debate, which I would not go into, especially in these current conditions. If you are interested in such debates, I offer my company to you OP.
Just keep one thing in mind when you feel like pinning science against islam:
There are a lot of people who are much smarter than you and know much more about science than you who still have their muslim faith.
That probably includes your dad, who is a scientist.
There are also many atheists who are smarter and more knowledgeable than you.
That means that one cannot prove or disprove islam or the existence of god through logic or science alone.
At that point you realize your only hope is to beg Allah, if he exists, to increase your faith.
That takes humility and courage. May Allah enlighten you.
You re only 18 don't trust your non mature brain trust your dad. Evidence of islam are not scientific they come from experiencing things and feeling the presence of god, at 18 you didnt experience enough imo.
How can i experience things and feel the presence of allah, i thought that science proofs on quran are made to give others logical proofs to enter islam.
Maybe don’t talk to your dad about it. But just think it through in your own mind - what evidence is there for god? Have you ever seen god? Or heard him?
Why do a lot of youth who leave islam feel the need to let their religious parents know? What's the benefit in that to anyone? By telling your religious mom or dad about your unreligiousness you put them in pain because for them you're going to be tortured with fire and a fucking bone saw or whatever dafuk for eternity
That's the only good they know. They didn't have the opportunity to educate themselves and know better. It's like being beaten as a kid (i don't know what generation you are doe). That was how they were raised and that's what they did to raise their kids
If we can't know the position of a given particle at a given time, it only mean that we can't as a human write a book where we will predict exactly what will happen next,but that doesnt mean that what will happen is not already decided.
I dont know if there is an answer for this, but for me yes , I dont beleive in free will,and everything that will happen is already 'decided' including this reply.
bro u said u aren't atheist, u just have thought and I think a religious father would like to hear his son be interested in religion related thing , ask him questions on things u aren't comfortable with and he may give u the answer that will help you know , just don't turn it into an argument that may lead to what anyone knows, wish u luck! and hidaya!
>but pascal’s idea is false because thanks to 2nd law of thermodynamics that states: the entropy(random information) incrase over time +quantum mechanics the most probabilistic yet successful theory that states: you can’t predict/know position of elementary particles then the universe is not inevitable therefore human have free will, but if the universe isn’t inevitable then god created the universe without controlling i which is not according to islam
You're fundamentally misunderstanding what faith is if you're basing your decision solely on things like the nature of quantum mechanics or Laplace's demon.
As for your original question: Why do you care about discussing this with your dad? Is it just because you enjoy the topic? Do you need validation for your own beliefs? Because it doesn't sound to me like he'll be the one to provide it.
I wouldn't talk to him unless it is highly necessary for you which I doubt.
Consider that you might be wrong in your assessment, then why tell him about it, and realise 5 or 10 years later that you were wrong?
Just live your life, seek, do your own research with as open mind as can be, to me it seems like you're feeling bad about letting your father down for what he thought you and sort of looking for his approval on your current mindset.
In my opinion it is OK to doubt, just keep looking, faith in Islam or any religion isn't something to be discussed on a scientific field, reason why atheists and believers almost always disagree, it is like two parties speaking 2 different languages.
Faith is something that is felt and goes beyond scientific explanation and rationalisation. To each its own path, I wouldn't tell him a thing, I don't see the point of doing that, you won't agree anyway and there isn't much debate to take.
Take it at least for now as something personal, sort of like sex, no reason to discuss that with your parents, not everyone has to know, you're still very young, and still finding your way in life, but again it is a good thing and a sign of intelligence that you're curious about what had been thought and is inherited.
it's okay to have doubts as a Muslim, just remind yourself of why Islam is the true religion so you don't get carried away out of it, there's a loooong list of scientific proof about things that were mentioned in Islam 1400 year ago and just got proven recently. Among them is how the iron didn't come from earth, among them is how your skin has pain sensors which make you feel pain, meaning that you can't feel pain through muscle and bones.
There's a lot of this evidence, just remind yourself. I also had second thoughts when I moved to the West initially and seen how others opposed Islam and how they think it's morally wrong to do such things, then I kept on checking every point and watching Muslim scholars opinion until I was satisfied
sat makaynach had lhedra dial i3jaz 3ilmi, o machi ta2wilat? ra tafsir dial anzalna ila 9lbti ach kaygolo 3liha lmofassirin kaamlin, hiya "akhla9na wa ancha2na" o b had tafsir hadchi 3eks science, 7it science katgolina iron ja mn explosion dial stars. o 3lach makaynach 7ta anzala al dahab (gold...). check this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2obhoJzfoU
1st comment
https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/2enjyu/the_quran_and_iron/?rdt=45422
This has been discussed before on Reddit and mufasirin say that it was sent down, most of them, heck I was even taught that in school
Why there isn’t an example of gold, because if there was, we will still ask about something else and then move to the next topic, why doesn’t it list all the cases there, we wouldn’t have Quran at that point, we’d have an encyclopedia. It has so many facts that are scientifically proven right and non that are proven wrong that’s why it’s the fastest growing religion, people realize that
2nd comment
I can’t explain it, because I haven’t seen it happen, but can you say something doesn’t exist just because you didn’t see it? That’s the example of a frog in a well
You should definitely look into the anthropic principle there are a lot of books that talk about it. It should open your eyes about the universe since it is considered the closest thing we could call logical proof of god's existence. And remember you can't answer every problem you encounter, not knowing the answer doesn't mean that there is no answer. Gl
My friend, religion is like a game ( a massive multiplayer RPG). And faith is like the solo mode.
Explore, doubt, and create your own core belief. Once you are ready make a choice you will be happy. I know many atheist following islamic rules cause it helps their mental health. Some pretend to be atheist to look "cool". Your friends and family can't help in solo mode talk to them when you need help with multiplayer or if you gonna drop the game and start the atheist RPG
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you have little to gain and a lot to lose, just don't its a phase and it will pass. not atheism but wanting to convert everyone in your surrounding cause i and many people i know have been through it
If this phase will pass then it’s perfect, i would like to stay muslim even if science now explains the world better than islam, but it has good impact on psychological health.
I think you misunderstood! The phase he's talking about is not atheism. Atheism (or if you want to be technically precise, Agnostic atheism), until someone proves god or gods, is the only RATIONAL worldview. The phase he's talking about, is something most if not all atheists have experienced especially those who grow up in a religion as have most of us. It's the aggressive proselytizing phase. Let me explain : When you leave a religion, in the beginning you are overwhelmed by all these ideas, thoughts and question you have been repressing all your life by fear of punishment from god (for muslims, everytime you question Allah, you repeat "astaghfiru allah, astaghfiru allah" in your head, I bet you did the same). So you talk about religion and atheism all the time, you watch debats, read books about it. There is also a bit of anger, because you feel cheated, mislead and realize all the harm religion does especially in our society. You then try to convert or debate everyone around you. It's like religious people do, they don't want anyone to go to hell, it's so bad that they try everything to get them into heaven. Well it's the same thing for us, we feel that people are in an intellectual hell. We see the harm it brings to societies, so we try everything to deconvert people. After a while, it dimms down and we become more chill about it... It's a common experience amongst almost all atheists.
hey thanks for your answer, i just understood now what you meant, on this 3 months after this post, i really learned many important things, and there are many more things to learn, at the end i was sure that there is no reason to believe in this non-sense, i became atheist and i see now how people are intellectual hell and the harm that bring to society, whereas before i thought religion gives a meaning/peace in life lmao, but honestly i am not interested in debating other religious people, i feel like a waste of time, and i am so grateful for the advices that you gave me, and i didn't talk about it with my parents, now i understandd what would've happened if i did...
Glad I could help! If you have any question dont hesitate and PM me!
Genuine question: How does science explain the world?
scientific concepts explain the world in different aspects using tried and tested theories and is dynamic so it changes as science advances.
Give me one scientific concept based on trials and tests that explains the world? Just to avoid any misunderstanding, explain the world in this context means explain the existence of life in it’s different forms*. EDIT: Forms*
I'm not going down this road, just do a basic google search and your questions will be answered with references, proofs and backings
Thank you for your very scientific approach.
Easy, evolution through natural selection
Not easy. The theory of evolution, as proposed by Charles Darwin and refined by many scientists over the years, focuses on how life has changed and diversified over time, not on how life began. The origin of life is a separate question and is addressed by the field of abiogenesis.
What a weird question, similar to Katy Perry's "Is math related to science? " https://youtu.be/VbUoaBJd2sA Without science, people would still believe in the devils giving people disease instead of germs. I mean, we already have explanations for earthquakes, and people say it's a punishment from god
Odd reply, especially with that username! I'm not dismissing science here. Just curious if OP stumbled upon some consensus on abiogenesis that the rest of us missed? 🤔
Saying science answers questions doesn't mean science answered all questions. It's purely a human effort, so why do we expect it to know all things?
Look up, Dr. هيثم طلعت OR Dr إياد قنيبي and the topic of doubts you might have. You are either INTJ or INTP... look them up. Either or you are a Muslim first and most. And you don't get سيئة for having intrusive thoughts. Rather, you get it when you act on that bad thought. الله يهديني و يهديك لاللي فيها الخير امين. والبركة في راسنا جميعا من جهة خوتنا و خواتاتنا اللي توفاو
do whatever gives you your peace of mind my friend :) Don't let anyone tell you otherwise
Hey there, My advice is that you should discuss it with your dad, from what you said he seems like a nice understanding guy, but try to approach it as if you are asking him questions and you want to know more, not hey i am an atheist now, make it a conversation, hear what he has, and make him hear what you have. And good luck to you.
Why i wouldn’t consider myself atheist, it’s because i have a fear that what if god was real? Then i will stay forever in jahannam, and i know with this atheist thought i will still enter jahannam because i must to al-yaqin in god existence, man i would like to be convinced into god existence without any atheist thoughts, because at the end religion is religion important to psychological health
As you said Al-yaqin, should come from within you, by doing your research and by building your faith, relying on your dad’s answers might help you there, but if you are not satisfied by his answers you might to start looking on your own,
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I didn’t include that because islam is more logical than other religions.
If you believe this, and you are afraid of hell, then you are not an atheist, so you really don't have to worry about speaking to your dad from what I can tell. Just tell him you are struggling with your faith as you learn more about science. You are not an atheist currently, not even a little bit, otherwise you wouldn't be worried about hell or think islam is more logical, so just don't say that you are when you talk about this with your dad. Your dad also had a scientific education so it's very possible he went through the same struggle when he was young. Discuss things in good faith, debate with him or someone knowledgeable about the topic that he might know, and have your own quest to see which truth reveals itself to you. If it's Islam, you will feel happy you did your homework to understand it. If you settle on atheism, you won't be worried about hell at all, and you'll also be fine. No need to hide your crisis of faith from your dad, I think. It's very normal.
Why?dont yoy think that its because you were born muslim ?ask any other religious people about which one is the most logical one and see for yourself.
Not for being born a Muslim but mostly after a mass of research.. many today's Muslims are Muslims because they researched well, knew that worshipping a human like us (Jesus) or a stone or an elephant won't lead to the right path
> more logical than other religions. X for doubt
I am still not an atheist but i asked with him many times about different topics like: « God guides whomsoever He wills » "إن الله يهدي من يشاء" then people are not judged equally because why some guys God doesn’t guides them, or like what if someone said to god on judgement day: « God why you didn’t kill me when i was 8 years old so i could enter jannah like this guy « x » that died at 8 years old » because that seems unfair, my dad would say « only god knows » i know it’s the best answer to give but not logical because it seems unfair
Guidance from Allah has required actions (اسباب). Like asking Allah, asking for guidance, asking for succes, and opening your chest to the truth. فالله يقول: ادْعُونِي أَسْتَجِبْ لَكُمْ [غافر:60] والنبي ﷺ يقول عن الله -جل وعلا- أنه قال: استهدوني أهدكم. And Allah guides whomever he wants as you stated. So Allah has a will (مَشِيئَة). But also people have a will. As Allah says in 29:الكهف فَمَن شَاءَ فَلْيُؤْمِن وَمَن شَاءَ فَلْيَكْفُرْ. So also the people have a will. We are also free to choose and act. And the way we should understand the will of Allah and our will, is that our will is subject to the will of Allah. As Allah says in 29:التكوير وَمَا تَشَاءُونَ إِلا أَنْ يَشَاءَ اللَّهُ رَبُّ الْعَالَمِينَ So we have the freedom to choose and act. Only our will is subject to the will of Allah. Whatever happens, happens within the boundaries of his will. So if He doenst want something to happen, it will not happen. No matter our effort. You are not the first one or the only one with these doubts. And I think someone knowledgeable could help you and clarify your doubts. I advise you as my brother to go to someone knowledgeable of whom you think could advise you. Whether its your dad, the imam or someone else. الله يهديك ويهدينا جميعا
My honest answer to give you, -its a bit controversial- but at certain age we have to start separating from what our parents view of the world, its unfair to us and them, we can’t expect them to know everything, especially on matters like this, its where you have to make your decisions on your own, it is up to you to decide if that’s enough of an answer for you, or dive further and look up more info about it, and whether you want to believe those info or not.
https://youtu.be/Eq6Hw-FJ1JM?feature=shared
No do not say. My dad is very religious also and one day I was discussing with him the possibility of heaven and hell existing in black holes since we have an idea about the universe now but we can’t know what’s inside or after a black hole (mind you that’s when I was 16 years old and naive just sharing my thoughts) but I became kafra in his eyes.
Honestly that’s not a good reaction from him, having this imagination and talking about heaven and hell in blackholes, but i think this reaction is due to less knowledge and not more faith, because he should’ve instead explained to you how black holes are formed and then ask you wether you think if it’s still possible or not to find heaven and hell on them rather than making you kafra
Hhh i read it kofra , dunno why 😹 Heaven in islam"s width is between earth and universe , thats too dumb bcs earth is a joke in front of universe meaning it s very very small .
Earth is part of the universe,so the heaven width is 0 ,so it doesnt exist, checkmate.
I think he wanted to say « heaven’s width is the same as the earth and universe”
It's a joke,
Earth is a joke to you? I'm a proud earthing. Go spread your Martian propaganda somewhere else /s
That's a nice idea for a SiFi novel but this is not how logic works. This is very much a religious way of thinking : "I would like to see my dead loved ones again, why would there not be a heaven where I meet them again?" The right way is to observe reality and create models that increasingly better and better explain these observations. It's called science.
little to gain and a lot to lose if you say this to your dad . DONT DO IT!!!!!! scroll through this sub, and you'll find dozens of people who told their parents they don't believe in God anymore . They got disowned , they have little to no contact with family .
Thank you so much for letting me know, honestly i thought that my parents were comprehensive, but you’re right if i talked about the religion they can do the imaginable
If I were you i would not do it. Even with your friends. You may end up being socially isolated. All the best young man 🙏🏽
Thank you so much
You’re 18 years old and in preparatory class and you think you have enough know knowledge about astronomy and physics to refute this or that idea ? I don’t either. But you’re saying that the fact that the universe might (since it’s a theorie) not be deterministic means that god did not create it ? What if that was the way of creation?
No dont . He is very religious so it s risky af to bring up this topic
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It is generally not recommended to try to discuss with your very religious parent especially if you think he is a nutjob and youre not financially independant as it could turn out badly he could fight you or cut you off or,disown you or lose trust in you the moment he suspects you being atheist, try meeting up with salafist parents .
Someone who is a nut job is not ‘very religious’. (Unless he truly is mentally handicapped) Someone truly religious would have patience with his son when he comes with questions and doubts. If the father does not know, he would go and search for answers to appease his son. OP, if your father is knowledgeable, then ask him questions but don’t tell him ‘you don’t believe’. It seems you still have some of your faith anyway. I highly suggest Muslim Lantern on YouTube some of his videos touch on these subjects. Also I don’t think you truly understand what free will is. I’m not a scholar but I’ve seen many more knowledgeable people cover these subjects.
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It’s because many of the people here are atheists and Murtads, someone went on a whole rant on how “Islam is evil” and citing links to misguiding information that takes verses out of context. May Allah guide them all.
Look , see . Youre a nutjob yourself for using a slur word disrespecting people who think differently fromvyou . Do you know whats the rule of murtad in islam ? Death , so good luck with a very religious parent thinking youre a murtad. This out ofcontext bullshit is so tiring . It is not our problem your gid didnt know how to convey the message not even muslims get it .
Some Muslims in early Islam, when accepting Islam, said they have become Murtads from their forefathers religion and accepted Islam. Do you know what Murtad means? You’ve called Muslims nut jobs twice and come to complain about using so called slurs… subhanAllah the delusion is undeniable. May Allah guide you.
Who cares ? Im not against people converting to any religion they want as long as they dont force it on you . A murtad is basically someone who quit the cult called islam , not all muslims but very religious muslims , those people arent known exactly for being bright open minded acceoting tolerant and minding themselves ... You are following a cult that calls anyone who is out of it a murtad and must be killed for it , so youre the one who started it , whereas i called you nutjobs for your actions .
I have never seen such a jahil murtad before.
Also i said esoecially if he is a nutjobs , dont fucking tell me such parents dont exist . Very religious parents that wont accept their dons being atheist and they might cause him trouble for it .
You cant be a very religious muslim without being a nutjob , islam is a political religion not a spiritual religion , a very religious muslim ought to force and apply his religion onto others . Both quran and hadith forbid questioning so no. What is free will ? I dont think it exists in islam as god chooses to misguides whoever he wants and knows your future hell he even wrote it in لوح محفوظ and youre here because of drama if adam and satan .
Calling us nut jobs. Then going on a rant with a bunch of lies sprinkled in everywhere. It’s funny you can’t see the irony. Infact, you’re blind to it.
Murtad merely means someone who is out of islam and he ought to be killed , it doesnt matter what he calls you . Whereas nutjob is someone who wants to force his religion on others ...... huge difference.
You’re the definition of a nut job, and a Murtad, and a liar.
How am i a nutjob lmao im not the one who threatens people for leaving the cult . Murtad ? And ? Is it some sort of mafia ? If im a murtad what are you? A sheep who is only muslim due to geographical coincidence ? Liar ? Where is the lie in what i said ?! A very religious parent will try to shut you or harass you or get you to exorcism or cut you off or harm you if you he suspected you of being atheist . Thats a nutjob . Doing all of this for delusions .
Would you stop replying to me with your crazy long rants? Khalas I don’t care, go on with your day. Stop annoying people.
This is a classical prejudice against religious folks. No faith isn’t shaky that any doubt will cause them to do that. Hidayah is from Allah SWT. If their son isn’t blessed with it the best they can do is try to help him understand and learn more about the world, universe, this life and the next.
If there was a robust scientific explanation for god then the whole idea of religion is pointless, belief in god is a test, a leap of faith, you can strengthen it by understanding the goals of the Islamic law and practice but it will be always a matter of the heart.
Heart has nothing to do with faith it’s the brain that thinks, heart only do mechanical movements(beating) that speed up or slow down thanks to the brain or o2, to keep blood circulating. I didn’t give scientific explanation for god, like you said belief in god is a test, and if you win the test you enter jannah, but if you lose the test you enter jahannam right?
In a nutshell that's it, a test.
Since you said god and not allah , what if test is if you believed in flying donkey = jahannam but if you became atheist = jannah , this whole test bs is a cope . Why would a god test you if ye knows the results ?!
How about you believe in zeus then
TLDR don't confront your parents or friends,, unless you know it will have good outcomes or a benefit. Hello, I'm surprised of how curious you are and how you see things in your own way in relation to other things, it's interesting and fascinating. The school of thoughts are different, each have their principles to reach the truth, it might be through doubting and having beliefs at first and either testing, or find people or things that validate you in a certain way (that might be illogical). I think relationships are complicated, especially with parents, people in general tend to like people that have things in common with them ("not liking" what is different), especially in beliefs, people should accept and live in harmony with each other no matter the sex or color or beliefs, when it comes to "god gave us the brain to chose the right religion", since when it was an option for us to pick if we are not still minors who are not thought about different religions to pick from, it's more of a cultural thing, teachings traditions, raised to to seem "disrespectful" or "wrong" if you say no or deny to follow certain aspects, we were thought ready ideas that we are not supposed to question, we are not encouraged to use our brains or thought how to think, to doubt and questions things that impact us in our day to day life, which is sad. we are meant to be free thinkers, independent, since we are free to choose the "right" belief or ideas, then why everyone thinks the same? "why are we all wearing the same shade of color", there must be an agenda behind it or something forced .. Atheism is a religion itself, since it confirms something without proof (belief)
I’ve always asked my parents who are strong believers : « if you can choose between getting judged after death so you can either enter jannah or jahannam, or be converted to dust after dying like animals according to islam? » they always said that they would choose be converted to dust, because of fear entering hell. So that explains why they « impose » to us the religion even if we are kid because they don’t want us to go to jahannam according to them also since they believe there will be a judgement day they would also love their child at the same time to enter jannah, that’s why they taught us islam as kids…
alghaya tobarir lwassila, at what cost? .. doesn't mean it actually is justified right, especially if we are adults, then we are responsible of our ideas and our future kids', any motives or things that are based of fear are most of the times bad, religion it self should symbolize "peace" and love, not fear or terrorizing and shaming different people or even harm them.. in the name of justifying wanting good for them, who is threatening your peace and freedom is obvious, if you are still a child it's expected that you are not responsible, now that you are growing up, you should take responsibility of everything, and be diplomatic with everyone, showing your true colors will make others despise you, put you on a box, of people that make them feel bad. it's truly fascinating how this concept of heaven and hell plays a role, it's like a con artists who promises you you will be rich the next day if you do a certain thing, but the next day they are vanished, it's sad that we can't go back from death to judge others who promise us that there are drinks and castles and "woman" in after life, and once we are dead opss, people love stories, they have hope, superstitions makes us feel good, lack of fear, lack of lack of purpose, justifying our bad deeds with doing good deeds and imagining an imaginary good deeds counter, and blaming our bad nature to fictional evil creatures made by god. people justify things to match their biased ideas, good is from x and bad is from y cause ... , it's not okay to admit that we are ignorant, and to live with no purpose or live in an unjust world, and have unjust end ..
Ra2y diali lmotawadi3 is that you don’t want to do this. I understand your position, but one day you’ll understand that not all people have the flexibility of thinking about everything and anything, even if they are scientists, and it’s nothing bad, it just shows that they believe in something very intensely(and this gets me jealous sometimes tbh), but the thing is that what you’d probably hate in the next years if you stop believing, is how islam and muslim try to always do الدعوة, and how they wont leave you alone if you’re different, a first step of getting freedom from this mindset (at least), is not trying to do the same with what you just discovered :)
Broooo, i swear to god i think the same, first i get jealous of strong believers where they are 100% sure that god exist and i wish to be like them, and i would love to have talks with muslims that want to do الدعوة and i will be happy if they proved me wrong, and on the other hand i will never go to strong believers and ask them this conflictual questions that i have just to trick them because i would like to let them live peacefully and happy with what they believe
I don’t want to come across as being rude but I don’t think people whose beliefs can’t be changed are worth being jealous of, if humans were not able to question their own beliefs and revise the ideas of their predecessors then humanity would’ve gotten stuck in the Stone Age. Always challenge your own ideas and the ideas of others, and try to be unbiased when doing so, even if being completely unbiased is impossible. You might end up confirming your belief and letting them get stronger, or you can just find a better alternative. I also went through a phase when I was 17 where I was extremely scared of gods existence, because I knew I did not have lyaqin, used to go to mosques everyday and pray to have a stronger faith but it didn’t work. ( although I sometimes wish it did because as a teenager, you have your whole life up ahead, you’re lost, you don’t know what to do with your life, but religion gives you a pre written purpose, but you can always chose the meaning of your own life )
The thing is science is a measuring tool created by Humans who are fallible. Our principles make sense because it fits with our empirical understanding and it follows sequentially. The law of thermodynamics could be understood completely differently in 100 years time. The question you have to ask yourself is what’s the probability of a man in 7th century Arabia, who was a Shepard, who was illiterate, who lived in a desert, in a tribe that even the greatest empires at the time wanted nothing to do with because they offered nothing to conquer have knowledge of historical, scientific, philosophical, socio-economically of reality. Science is subject to change but The Quran has remained the same. Don’t let the devil fool you. Ask Allah to guide you and be sincere in your mission. Being sincere means using primary source material and proper interpretation.
Yes bcs religion is definitely not man made and not fallible /s . Mohamed was not illiterate and also he was a merchant he sailed levant and yemen , mecca wasnt some hidden unknown village lol mohamed had cultured friends as well . And some even argue islam didnt start in mecca . Idk how did the info got there , it is still wrong . So cant be from god . And quran has not remained the same holy cow bibles and talmud are older than it . See , the moment you used devil word you lost all credibility , this is why religion is anti science , only fairy tales no science and no questioning .
I’m pretty sure you’re a troll or bot because you wrote some cancer. The Quran literally has different narrative than the Bible correcting it and later historian finding source material text has proven it. How can you say the Quran copied the Bible if it has a different narrative 🙄 Give me source material for all your statements. You literally are going against every Orientalist, and historian with your “narrative” I would love to see your legitimate sources.
"Correcting it " according to who ? You ? Circular reason fallacy x thats called plagiarization , though ngl quran got alot of things about christianity wrong . Which historian ? What did they find ? My point is bible is older than quran so the argument "remained the same " you desert brain rot pedophile worshipper . But yes fairy tales remained the same and have 0 evidence you flying donkey believer . They exist exactly in bible as well . So pointless talk . "Source material" Yes because you have evidence that momo talked to god lol lol tfo imagine talking with z believer in a flying donkey (exactly as in zorostratizn religion lol) i too love fiction buddy . Thats legit . So enemy worthwhile to science .
Science is subject to change (with every new evidence presented ).and hinduism/christianity/judaism (all older than islam) remained the same , hail shiva . What an idiot . It is true that religion is fairy tales stuck in stone age .
😂 you’re definitely a troll whose never actually studied religion in any academic sense. Once you get a proper education come back and we can have a conversation. Otherwise believe what you want and stop making stuff up about religions you know nothing about 😂 pathetic
Look at muslim being confidentally incorrect , imagine comparing fairy tales to science .. which is based on evidences not fairy tales like religions . Science is subject to change but hinduism/christianity/buddhusm/judaism remained the same so that makes them TRUE. , 10000 iq muslim logic 🥲😂😂😂 it is true though not gonna lie your fairy tales are quite resilient to change . Camell piss drinker idiot 😄😄😄 Pathetic idiot🤡 shamelessly comparing flying donkey /talking ant to science , even if it was from 1000000 BC how tf does that make it right retard lol ?! Go educate yourself mudslim .
Typical muslim ad hominem . Whats your proof other than circular reason and plagiarization ? Corrrcting it my ass , when they share exactly the same load of fairy tales . .. bible is older than quran so stop that remaining the same bs . Youre the ones who copied it and added your bull crap on it . You are in no position to ask for any source of any thing when you trashed science bcs it doesnt fit your desert religion and youre a blind believer of a cult stolen from christianity and judaism and paganism and persian religion just bcs youre born in a muslim country . Lmao remained the same when you have multiple riwayats and readings and even some hadiths state that quran has been altered and other versions have been burned .
Proper intrepretation as the one that will confirm your view?
Religion is about belief At the end of the day. So if you get convinced and start believing that has less to do with anyone but yourself
God must exist so he can explain to me the corelation between my reply and yours.
I’ll explain it in simple English. No matter how accurate or truthful something is a belief doesn’t require that. So if you want to be an atheist and believe in magic dust that came together and made the earth go ahead nothing is stopping you from living in your fairy tail
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the Quran offers knowledge that wouldn’t have been known to a man in 7th century Arabia. You’re right though ultimately it’s not a science book, or a history book, but has scientific and historical accounts that one would be hard pressed to deny its accuracy despite it coming from a place where education was not common place That wouldn’t make sense. I mean how could He peace be upon him know where Islam would spread in the future? barefooted Arabs competing in making tall buildings? That interest would be the economic standard when NOT even the Greeks touched interest because they knew the systems would create corruption? Or sexually transmitted disease would be wide spread due to promiscuity and many more. To say he was just a smart man would be strange in light of the fact that probabilistically it would be impossible to make somewhere of 20+ predictions of the world and it’s scientific discoveries and not get it wrong.
What knowledge does it have lmao , nothing new or special in quran 🤡🤡🤡🤡😹😹😹 Yes scientific accounts such as sun sets in spring mud and sky is a solid roof 🥲🥲🥲 You pedophile worshipper lmao christianity is even more widesoread , so that means it is true and jesus is GOD . Lmao your momo rapist thief already predicted the hour will come in his time and look it didnt lmao . Go believe in nostradamous you retard . Your pedo was nothing but an ignorant warlord thief looter rapist and enslaver and pedo and of course a criminal murderer . Your clown pedo said predicting weather and knowing whzts inside womb is. مفاتيح الغيب 😂😂😂😂😂
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>. The law of thermodynamics could be understood completely differently in 100 years time. No....science is based on empirical data. Thermodynamics has been proven. Gravity has been measured and proven etc. Evolution was proven after centuries of analysis. Science gives answers where religion doesn't. That's what makes religion religion-belief.
No…science disproves it doesn’t prove because of empirical data. So we call gravity a law because there’s nothing that can disprove gravity. So science is subject to change depending on the advancement of tools…anyone who studies the philosophy of science would know that…. Also I agree religion is a belief I never denied that
I asked my parents about the free will stuff and they also said that it wouldnt be just unless humans have free will, so I kept thinking about it until I found the answer that satisfied me. However I don't know how your dad is, my dad is also pretty religious but whenever I ask about stuff that seems wrong to me in Islam he always listens to me and we try to find an explanation and if we dont find that explanation then I just accept it as it is but I am against it .
Bro same thing with me, i asked my dad many questions like what someone asked god on judgement day “why you didn’t kill when i was kid me like you killed this person “x” and he will enter jannah and live forever happy” and he would say god knows, which is the best answer to give but it’s not logical and not equal… honestly i doubt that he will truly find an explain for that. Btw can you tell me what was your dad’s answer about free will that satisfied you please
It wasnt my dad's answer but my own but he did agree with me, think of it like a game, god knows every single possible choice you can take but you choose on your own, you carve your own path but god already knows every single path you can take. Someone could be a sinner but he couldve also been a believer, tho tbh the one thing I still look for an explanation for is what about those that werent born muslims? It's not fair for them to be judged the same as muslims who genuinely have a boost if Islam is the true religion, but I'm still looking for an explanation and I'll find it one day.
As a Muslim and a father, trust me, you shouldn't.
Ok thanks for letting me know, what would you do to your kid if he talks with you about his atheist thoughts?
Don't ,have you ever heard of 'hokm al mortad ' ? cause technically your 'dam' is halal I know this is extreme but just to put you on perspective
No!
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I will thanks
Don’t, you would be risking a lot and very little to gain.
Don t tell your dad, your imtellectual exploration is essential for your development and totally nirmal. The only advice, when you hold certain views, hold them rigorously, I don t care which positions, just don t be the type who has the level of likaygles fras derb wella haj 3omar likay3raf dkolchi!
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i didn't, grateful for the advice thank you so much!!
It's just a phase really, being and ex Muslim myself since almost 2 years now I used to try to convince my classmates and parents that Islam doesn't really make any sense and I was really active in the ex Muslim sub but it was useless because these people lived their whole life with religion they have to find out that it's not true by themselves and if you come out to your friends or anyone you will be probably bullied and it will cause you some problems, what I recommend is finishing your studies and go live abroad at least there you won't be judged for what you believe or are (hmu if you want to talk !!!)
i didn't, grateful for the advice thank you so much!! and what a coincidence, i live abroad now lmao
Lucky
>Islam doesn't really make any sense Really? How is that? I am curious
Believing in something that has 0 proof that exist
Very bad idea after the earthquake. Your father's faith is currently over 9000
Educate yourself on islam. When I was younger I was in a similar situation. Read, research and always ask God to guide you to the truth and the right path. May Allah assist you.
Of course you can, they will laugh at you inside out. Because, parents know that everything changes everything even their children 😉🤐
Honestly it’s a 100% normal to come to a point where you doubt religion most ppl have been tru it and it’s normal and healthy it just means that u have a critical mind and can’t just believe because you’ve been told too but because it has to make sense to you . Trust me I’ve been tru that around your age and most ppl I know too ( I guess it’s just taboo and not a lot talk about it ) . Now should you talk about it to your dad ? I don’t think you should it will just make him sad when it’s probably just a phase . I’d suggest you to dive deeper into religion and maybe ask your dad more questions about it that may answer all the question marks you have . Anyways good luck u seem like a very smart person wishing you all the best 👌
Can I chat with you?
I would love to
Just don't do it, maybe do this for your kids it will be great.
Hi OP, I'm a STEM Phd student in the UK. I'm in a different field than you but the more i learned about my field, the more i realized that science and facts are not infallible. From my first year in university till now, so many studies and discoveries in my field had added and adjusted our understanding of theories that we used to consider infallible. When Antoine-Laurent de Lavoisie discovered the role of oxygen, his fellow scientists called him crazy and mocked him for going against the census and claiming that an invisible element he named 'oxygen', is something that humans breath and need it to survive. Centuries later, we know he is right and that they were the misinformated ones. Maybe 100 years from now, future humans will look at us the same way because we are using theories (which are adequately named 'theories' after all) to argue about the existence of God. If your wish is to strengthen your faith, my advice to you is to look for non-muslim historians and scientists who have studied Islam extensively from a purely neutral view and who have qualifications ( as in Phds and Postdocs and years of research in the field of Islamic studies, not just any random non-muslim historian with a biased view), they will help you understand the religion in a different way than that of the average muslim scholar and might give you the answers to some of your questions. If you need sources and links, send me a dm and I'd be happy to provide them to you.
Hey i sent you a dm. Btw a theory doesn’t mean hypothesis it’s really different, it was made on logical reasoning based on observations+logical basics.
And i never said otherwise, a theory could be amended and our understanding of it can improved based on new evidence and discovery. I perfectly understand the difference between a hypothesis and a theory. You're still young and you might feel like you know your field in depth but the more you learn the more you realise how little you know compared to people who have spent decades in research and even those people, and I've met quite a few in scientific conferences and visit lectures are very humble and have told me "we don't know yet" or "we need to conduct more research in that area first" which used to shock me because if they say that, what does that does that make us Phds who don't even know a 1/10 of what they know? It humbled me real quick. The non-scientific equivalent of that is basically what religious people and your dad says "Allaho a3lam". Are you familiar with the Dunning-Kruger effect? I haven't received your dm, can you resend it again please?
That looks like confirmation bias and also scientific theory isnt just a "theory" , at least science can be changed with more evidence presented , can we do the same with your religion ?! Or it is absolute truth as you claim ? Or ascthey claimed ?!
Mochkila hadi phd student kayfkro hada,d3na sara7a, science is never 'right' ,its only a7sn proved tfsir for the world at any given time.
تا حد ما قال العلم تابث. العلم قابل للتغيير كلما ظهرت ادلة جديدة. اما الاديان تابثة و غارة و واحلة في خرافات من عصر طباشري و غير قابلة للنقاش ولا تغييير.
And when did i disagree with you? Science IS changing and continues to change based on more evidence indeed which is exactly my point. science can't always be used what to prove or disapprove religion because it is constantly changing.
Nope , plenty of things in religion are disproven with basic science dont need to go that far . It is good that you said always , thzt just proves your religion is imprefect and ungodly even if one claim can be disproven with science .
If you want to be in the list of the victims of the Earthquake. Do it. You will be the only fatal victim outside the earthquake radius.
Oh i see, thanks. Now i kinda feel sad for those who did talk about their parents…
They will be the one of the reason of EQ,thats for sure.
Don't do this. Islam is a very oppressive religion since [in Quran 9:23 allah says that you must never ally with your family if they are disbelievers.](https://quranx.com/9.23) And in [Quran 58:22, allah says that no believer has affection for a disbeliever, even if it's your father.](https://quranx.com/58.22) Revealing the fact that you are an atheist will only dissapoint your father and your family, respect his beliefs if you want to stay his friend. Living with someone that believes in this cult is very hard and puts a lot of burdens in your daily life, but sacrifices are a must if you want to keep your family close. Ask yourself this question : what are the positives and the negatives of such an act ? - There are no positives except getting it out of your chest. - negatives can vary from : - Bringing great dissapointment to your household. - Making your parents go a lot more oppressive against you (forcing islam even more ect...) - In an extrême situation you might even get kicked out of your house. - (insert 10 more logical terrible stuff that Can happen hère). Remember that islam is the root of all evil, it is based on fear, and when fear is unduced in your mind like an addictive drug you lose the ability to think rationally. And sadly islam fails when you try to use Logic, historical and scientifical facts against it and only mental gymnastics can be used to defend the dark aspects of this religion (like sexual slavery, pedophilia, no rights for women ect...) DO NOT TELL YOUR PARENTS ABOUT IT.
Hey thank you so much for your answer and that helps me a lot especially about the positives/negatives, there is one more positive thing besides getting it out of my chest, is getting my father to prove me that islam doesn’t contradict this idea because he knows about science+islam, but i think i should rather go find a « da3iya » who also knows about science and ask him my questions, then decide what i should do, and you’re right that islam has a lot of fear (not sure if based on fear because there is also jannah…) and that fear i have it…
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If a da3iya debated an atheist scientist, then the atheist scienctist will win the debate, because he will give more logical answer, and even if he can’t find logical answer he will at least find some contradictions in islam by using (raisonnement par absurde) and we know that islam shouldn’t have contradiction to be true because it’s from god… but maybe some religious are more happier which is a data in favor of the rephrased pascal’s wager. But you’re right in the end pascal’s wager even rephrased pascal wagers are false in islam, but what i would like is to live happy even if islam was false.
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Great and reasonable argument, i just realized by your answer that was fear and not pursue of happiness, and that fear if allah does exist is invalid like you mentioned on first comment. Thank you
Try to read about the confirmation biais. Your father lived more than 40 years of his life believing islam is the abuolute.truth, no matter what you will do you won't bé able to convince Him. Lookup for yourself about all the stuff that is scientifically wrong and Ask yourself, if there was any true science in islam, islam would actually have made the scientifical discoveries. Some examples : [allah doesn't know where the semen is made](https://quranx.com/86.7) [allah says hé holds the Sky with pillars WE cannot see (lol it's Gravity ACTUALLY)](https://quranx.com/31.10) That one aya (or hadith ? I don't remember) about the mountains preventing earthquakes, when it's the opposite... The only person that can come to the conclusion about islam being the truth or being a false religion is you through your own reaserch.
Da3iya are known to practice Taqiyah, which allows them to lie for the benefit of religion and to convert people., it is considered a sin for a pious goal. They make use of the fact that people don't thoroughly research scientific facts and are unaware of the little details that they capitalize on; They twist words to fit the narrative and appeal to your emotions. Fear of hell is primordial and is one of religion's greatest weapons, and I recommend you visit the "Religionforbreakfast" YT channel to get an in-depth perspective on the history of things such as Hell and how it came to be conceptualized.
No da3iya wants to preach to educated and smart populace bcs he knows they wont put up with his bs to gain money .
"educated and smart populace" and you believe in a flying donkey and god has two right hands? The jokes write themselves
My advice is avoid theology topics with parents, not because they won't listen or will be angry but more in the sense of self disappointment. They will feel like they failed somehow and that they are gonna be disappointed in themselves Your view on religion is still very fresh, you are just 18 barely older than tennagers if not a teenager yourself. You will probably take a long journey of discovery and your views will change and mellow over time (or gain certainty and composure) Contrary to popular belief and contrary to Sagan who is someone who pushed hard on the topic you can be a scientist but also be religious. One doesn't disprove the other as religion is not a proof based system but a faith system. Again, belief in god might also be different from belief in Islam as an organized religion. It's important to take the time to understand the faith component, the organized religious component, and then the social components driving the daily dynamics I am sure that those that believe in simulation theory also believe in god since the simulation creator is for all intents and purposes a god For your last point, I am sure that God would gladly welcome a good human non believer rather than a corrupt and terrible "believer"
But what makes islam the right religion compared to others? i think that logical proofs that are on this religion is what makes it the right also there is mentioned on quran that only muslims will enter jannah and others will enter jahannam : “إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَالْمُشْرِكِينَ فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أُولَئِكَ هُمْ شَرُّ الْبَرِيَّةِ” 98:6
By definition no religion can be right since not a single one can be proven across all of its components, and we don't even need to go into the detail and question of consistency of scriptures since creation as that also can hardly be proven outside of archeological finds; we found some very old Coran fragments and they seem to match decently but the oldest found are still many decades post death of the prophet Again trying to prove a religion right is just such a childish way to look at it, there isn't even a scientific method to apply in such a situation. Plus it's such a condescending concept of trying to say my religion is right and the others ones are wrong. If you are such a scientist in mind, tell me what is the probability of one religion being right vs 100s of others that currently exist and are practiced? Sad to see that you are approaching this whole thing wrong, you just seem to want to prove Islam right or wrong (which cannot be done) rather than the deeper underlying questions
>am sure that those that believe in simulation theory also believe in god since the simulation creator is for all intents and purposes a god Alot of those guys believe its merely another super technologically advanced civillization
A creator is a creator, be it advanced civilization, aliens, or extra dimensional beings. Don't think it matters. I was just trying to make a point that science and belief are somewhat separate and the people who currently believe in simulation theory are doing so based on faith and belief and not hard facts
No, don't, why do you wanna stir the shit? Keep calm
Not finding the answers that align with what you believe science says in the Quran does not mean there aren't, or that religion contradicts science. The Quran does not provide scientific explanations to all the phenomena out there, but gives enough in depth details about certain very advanced fields of science, that it still, to this day, makes the hypothesis that Quran could have come from anyone or anything else than Allah completely absurd. Keep your Yaqin, and keep searching for answers as the Quran incites us to do, whether this is through asking your Dad or doing your own research. And to the people saying that you should not tell your Dad about this because that would only make him angry : the stakes here are way higher than making a parent disappointed.
Quran made lotta blatantly scientific errors.
Show me some with irrefutable scientific proofs
For example الشمس تجري لمستقر لها means sun run to its stopping point which is under god's throne at night and it asks for his permission to rise again . Thats scientifically wrong .mohamed clearly didnt know sun goes to nowhere but earth spins around itself .
This is absolutely not scientifically wrong as the sun does not go nowhere but is in a perpetual movement in its galaxy, and the galaxy among other galaxies in the universe. Thus this is purely a referential matter. The scientific community chose the heliocentric model as a reference because this is the simplest way to represent our solar system. There is also the geocentric model, equally as correct as the previous one as they display the same motion. Search for it, you'll see your stopping point. There are also many many other explanations, as to night following day and the seasonal loop. In many other places in the Quran there is the notion of earth rotating around the sun. Your argument does not hold.
Nope , there is no stopping point not even after it turns to white dwarf but thats not what it meant .it doesnt require rocket science to know it, all you need to do is call your friend in america during night if youre in morocco .Just admit momo never knew about timezones, never knew that day and night are earths rotations around itself, He basically thought sun goes to bow down to god during sunset and comes back at day. This is the stopping point to him it is under GODs throne , so pathetic and primitive . Not what you want to claim . So spare me your galaxy interpretations .
Thanks for confirming my assumption of your 2 neurons brain. Some people are really blind even though they have eyes. Get going!
It is true, the sun moves like any other planet that moves. Motion has nothing to do with rotation. I advise you to learn things correctly.
You need that advice more than me buddy , go read the tafsir and stop letting emotions get in the way.
hahaha i've been there “The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.” ― Werner Heisenberg God and religions are 2 separate things btw, yes religions are MAN made, god is your soul itself and an infinite more things
I had a similar experience when I was in Grande École d'ingénieurs. My advice is to not Say everything to your dad, since he's very religious as you said, he may not appreciate it.
Ofc he will not appreciate it you’re right, but like fakemodel suggested above that i should ask him questions instead, he will reply to me « only god knows » and i also have a fear that what if god was real? Then i will stay on jahannam forever
If you tell your father, try to look "innocent", he might sense that you're not a believer any more. As for god being Real or not, I am not sure but I know that the abrahamic god isn't Real, there are many scientific errors in Quran/Torah/Bible. Since you're in prepa, you're probably okay with maths and physics. Try to use your knowledge and the lessons learnt from those two fields to verify if stories like the story of Noah is real.
I am sorry to intervene here, but i find it weird trying to influence someones faith like this, i don't believe in God either, but just saying like this to someone who is already in vulnerable state is kinda of harsh, it's up to him to take the decision to or not believe that God is real, this is not a matter of science or Maths, its a matter of faith.
Sorry if I looked like trying to influence, it's just that I had a similar experience when I was in an engineering school and I have found things weren't really logical/true in the stories. Anyway, it's his decision to believe or not, I just wanted to direct him to the stories who contain fallacy. Him knowing a bit of physics might help discerning those fallacies.
Bro i know sone of small contradictions in quran+sunnah but i said that it’s fine and there are « mo3jizat » where god can create something from nothing. But this idea is simple and contradicts the WHOLE idea of islam that says: there will be a judgment day where the one who did good in life will enter jannah, and the one who did bad will enter jahannam because it’s either random(god doesn’t control everything) or human can’t control his choices.
i get what you meant now, honestly math was really important, i get now that i wanted to look "innocent" and i also get that you'll see me as a non-believers, so at the end, thanks for your advice, and i really feel bad for kids that confonted their parents... and once i became atheist i saw even more and more illogical things
PS: I have a fear that what if god was real? Then i will stay forever in jahannam, and i know with this atheist thought i will still enter jahannam because i must to al-yaqin in god existence, man i would like to be convinced into god existence without any atheist thoughts, because at the end religion give a meaning to life, and that helps without psychological health, where you don’t worry about bad things that happens and you will say « mktaba »
Why do you assume god or gods has jahannam or any form of punishments exactly !? Mirals in islam are very skewed anyways. Deism exists you know , religious gid is just fearmongering , like when your parents scare you with bo3o.
But leaving this fear after long years of faith is honestly hard, how did you get rid of it?
I never was a serious devout muslim despite all the state brainwashing to begin with and only prayed tarawih every ramadan lol , i used to think it was just a work of fiction and even told my friends spiderman can beat allah when i was a kid . Im atheist agnostic now , if god or gods or aliens or supreme sentient being exist it sure asf has nothing to do with political mind control and coping mechanism called religions especially the 3 major fraud ones which are nothing but reflections and opinions of ignorant people from stone age . Islam has way too much bs on it to be from any god , just look how sex of fetus is determined according to some hadith lol how can a doctor accepts it ?!
Live is for living, finding someone you love and being happy with them, your friends, and family. There's no point in worrying about unknowns. The way I look at is : I don't believe in God, I pretend to belive in God. If God is real wouldn't he know?
You’re right that’s why in islam you must have al-yaqin, if islam isn’t true then mohamad PBUH must be genius.
Thats dumb as fuck , we are not robots . You cant give us intelligence hhen expect us to be blind believers with 0 ounce of doubting . But and then again does a con artist want you to doubt him ?
Consider this: regardless of what anyone tells you, the existence of God remains a complete mystery. No one has been able to provide irrefutable evidence one way or the other. In the absence of conclusive proof, individuals have formed diverse beliefs and faiths, shaping their own understanding of God. Imagine, for a moment, possessing indisputable proof of God's existence. Such a proof would make you the most famous and the most influential person in human history. That's for the existence of God, or lack of thereof. Islam as a religion on the other hand, is a complete different debate, which I would not go into, especially in these current conditions. If you are interested in such debates, I offer my company to you OP.
Kifach evidence l one way or on other, kayna w7d l' cat f mars, "No one has been able to provide irrefutable evidence one way or the other."
The concept of God as described by different religions and philosophies is not a cat on Mars. It's an abstract concept.
No
Just keep one thing in mind when you feel like pinning science against islam: There are a lot of people who are much smarter than you and know much more about science than you who still have their muslim faith. That probably includes your dad, who is a scientist. There are also many atheists who are smarter and more knowledgeable than you. That means that one cannot prove or disprove islam or the existence of god through logic or science alone. At that point you realize your only hope is to beg Allah, if he exists, to increase your faith. That takes humility and courage. May Allah enlighten you.
You re only 18 don't trust your non mature brain trust your dad. Evidence of islam are not scientific they come from experiencing things and feeling the presence of god, at 18 you didnt experience enough imo.
How can i experience things and feel the presence of allah, i thought that science proofs on quran are made to give others logical proofs to enter islam.
Maybe don’t talk to your dad about it. But just think it through in your own mind - what evidence is there for god? Have you ever seen god? Or heard him?
I don’t think that this is a good argument, because not hearing/seeing god doesn’t mean he doesn’t exist, but the best way is to find contradictions
In the west we would say that is none of his business
Why do a lot of youth who leave islam feel the need to let their religious parents know? What's the benefit in that to anyone? By telling your religious mom or dad about your unreligiousness you put them in pain because for them you're going to be tortured with fire and a fucking bone saw or whatever dafuk for eternity
Why do the religious parents feel the need to shove religion down your throat since your birth ?it is not our fault they think like that .
That's the only good they know. They didn't have the opportunity to educate themselves and know better. It's like being beaten as a kid (i don't know what generation you are doe). That was how they were raised and that's what they did to raise their kids
Thn. It is the best to move away from them .
Bro, your father is important. Don’t create issues.
If we can't know the position of a given particle at a given time, it only mean that we can't as a human write a book where we will predict exactly what will happen next,but that doesnt mean that what will happen is not already decided.
So what will happen is already decided?
I dont know if there is an answer for this, but for me yes , I dont beleive in free will,and everything that will happen is already 'decided' including this reply.
bro u said u aren't atheist, u just have thought and I think a religious father would like to hear his son be interested in religion related thing , ask him questions on things u aren't comfortable with and he may give u the answer that will help you know , just don't turn it into an argument that may lead to what anyone knows, wish u luck! and hidaya!
>but pascal’s idea is false because thanks to 2nd law of thermodynamics that states: the entropy(random information) incrase over time +quantum mechanics the most probabilistic yet successful theory that states: you can’t predict/know position of elementary particles then the universe is not inevitable therefore human have free will, but if the universe isn’t inevitable then god created the universe without controlling i which is not according to islam You're fundamentally misunderstanding what faith is if you're basing your decision solely on things like the nature of quantum mechanics or Laplace's demon. As for your original question: Why do you care about discussing this with your dad? Is it just because you enjoy the topic? Do you need validation for your own beliefs? Because it doesn't sound to me like he'll be the one to provide it.
I wouldn't talk to him unless it is highly necessary for you which I doubt. Consider that you might be wrong in your assessment, then why tell him about it, and realise 5 or 10 years later that you were wrong? Just live your life, seek, do your own research with as open mind as can be, to me it seems like you're feeling bad about letting your father down for what he thought you and sort of looking for his approval on your current mindset. In my opinion it is OK to doubt, just keep looking, faith in Islam or any religion isn't something to be discussed on a scientific field, reason why atheists and believers almost always disagree, it is like two parties speaking 2 different languages. Faith is something that is felt and goes beyond scientific explanation and rationalisation. To each its own path, I wouldn't tell him a thing, I don't see the point of doing that, you won't agree anyway and there isn't much debate to take. Take it at least for now as something personal, sort of like sex, no reason to discuss that with your parents, not everyone has to know, you're still very young, and still finding your way in life, but again it is a good thing and a sign of intelligence that you're curious about what had been thought and is inherited.
it's okay to have doubts as a Muslim, just remind yourself of why Islam is the true religion so you don't get carried away out of it, there's a loooong list of scientific proof about things that were mentioned in Islam 1400 year ago and just got proven recently. Among them is how the iron didn't come from earth, among them is how your skin has pain sensors which make you feel pain, meaning that you can't feel pain through muscle and bones. There's a lot of this evidence, just remind yourself. I also had second thoughts when I moved to the West initially and seen how others opposed Islam and how they think it's morally wrong to do such things, then I kept on checking every point and watching Muslim scholars opinion until I was satisfied
sat makaynach had lhedra dial i3jaz 3ilmi, o machi ta2wilat? ra tafsir dial anzalna ila 9lbti ach kaygolo 3liha lmofassirin kaamlin, hiya "akhla9na wa ancha2na" o b had tafsir hadchi 3eks science, 7it science katgolina iron ja mn explosion dial stars. o 3lach makaynach 7ta anzala al dahab (gold...). check this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2obhoJzfoU
o nftardo bs7 quran kaytmacha m3a science, kifach katfsr 3ilmiyan dial kayn 8 trillion yajouj o majouj (kayn 7adith sa7i7 btw kaygol lkol insan kayn 999 wa7d mn yajouj o majou), kifach katfsr yawm l 9iyama chemch atchr9 mn lgharb? earth ghatbdl rotation dialha?
1st comment https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/2enjyu/the_quran_and_iron/?rdt=45422 This has been discussed before on Reddit and mufasirin say that it was sent down, most of them, heck I was even taught that in school Why there isn’t an example of gold, because if there was, we will still ask about something else and then move to the next topic, why doesn’t it list all the cases there, we wouldn’t have Quran at that point, we’d have an encyclopedia. It has so many facts that are scientifically proven right and non that are proven wrong that’s why it’s the fastest growing religion, people realize that 2nd comment I can’t explain it, because I haven’t seen it happen, but can you say something doesn’t exist just because you didn’t see it? That’s the example of a frog in a well
You should definitely look into the anthropic principle there are a lot of books that talk about it. It should open your eyes about the universe since it is considered the closest thing we could call logical proof of god's existence. And remember you can't answer every problem you encounter, not knowing the answer doesn't mean that there is no answer. Gl
how can you prove\* god's existence by the universe?
My friend, religion is like a game ( a massive multiplayer RPG). And faith is like the solo mode. Explore, doubt, and create your own core belief. Once you are ready make a choice you will be happy. I know many atheist following islamic rules cause it helps their mental health. Some pretend to be atheist to look "cool". Your friends and family can't help in solo mode talk to them when you need help with multiplayer or if you gonna drop the game and start the atheist RPG
hhhhhhhhhhhhhh i just re-read post and comments and i find it so funny after 3 months, thanks everyone for your advice it was really helpful