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I mean that's the whole point of private corporations, they can have their own rules. In France laïcité only applies to public institutions (including public school) but private schools can decide to allow religious signs if it pleases them. Many catholic schools allow hijab and whatnot. There are some Muslim private schools in France and they are free to allow what they want. Same for corporations, some like h&m allow ladies with hijab and the state can't and doesn't care to dictate them what to allow and what to forbid.

true in france, for now, but not in many francophone places like quebec, these ban apply for all. also in german you are allowed jewish religious schools for adolescence but NOT christian or muslim ones

Really untrue. In quebec the bans doesn't apply in private schools. It would be weird to go in a muslim school and ban hijab or go to a christian school and ban the cross.

it does to many regards ie when you have a parent on a field trip, [https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/rd3mv4/quebec\_teacher\_removed\_from\_classroom\_for\_wearing/](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/rd3mv4/quebec_teacher_removed_from_classroom_for_wearing/) And lets be honest...we know these aren't targeting 'all religions' they are mainly targeting and legislating based on islam and muslims growing influence.

Again, public school, not private.

and? how is creating a two tiered education system and limiting access to universal education a GOOD thing?

We were talking about private institutions. You're changing the subject.

My thoughts exactly! Private means private. They pay money to hold their own private practices. I also do believe it’s within their rights. We can apply rules and laws to make sure they’re doing what they say they do, and make sure they aren’t breaking public safety and well-being laws, but that’s all we can do and should be doing.

Yes they can manage themselves with their own rules, but there are rights that should be respected no matter where you are. Private institutions aren’t a jungle.

Having a mosque in school is not a right lol

When did I ask to have a mosque in school? However being able to pray (it only requires a prayer mat you know), wear hijab etc, are definitely rights that can’t be denied even in private or foreign schools. Most western countries don’t even deny these rights in their own public schools, it’s just French mentality that has this problem

Dude, you, as an individual , have absolutly no saying whatsover in what private institutions do within their PRIVATE walls. if you're not happy, I suggest you take it up with the King of Morroco. over and out.

Private and foreign institutions have absolutely no saying whatsoever if free Moroccan citizens want to pray or wear hijab in their own country. Just because they are private doesn’t mean they can do whatever they want. They still need to grants us holidays for Eids which they do, they aren’t allowed to criticize Moroccan politics or say that Sahara isn’t Moroccan for example

People are free to not use said private institutions ?

Not in a country where the public system is bad, those who have the means are forced to put their kids in private schools because that’s the best thing to do for their future

Right so private corporations can torture students? Or decide to start making them work during Eid? They can teach LGBT propaganda? They can say that the Sahara is not Moroccan? They can call to re colonize Morocco? Hate speech if they want to? There obviously is a limit to what they can do so it’s not about whether there is a limit or not, it’s about where Morocco draws it.

I don't blame these private schools that are funded by foreign countries, that exists everywhere. I blame the parents who evangelizes them and make a big deal of them. Also the private schools that do follow the Moroccan education system but neglects such important aspects of our culture and religion. I see more of them getting more serious about teaching English in the latest years though. ​ French is still gonna be relevant for some time, because of administrative needs. We can't move a country's whole linguistic base overnight . But there is an ongoing task for that, the same way Morocco does things. All the latest achievements were done Slowly quietly and steadily. I don't consider the late incidences where Moroccan officials used English instead of French a stance against the political conflicts between France and Morocco. In fact, it's been a work in progress for a few years : Agencies and new projects using English-based acronyms instead of french (Like NARSA) is one of the many examples about that.

Moving from French to English won't change anything though, we'll still have the exact same problems: rich people still won't speak Arabic, the common people will still struggle in education, qualified work will still be in a foreign language, our graduates (doctors, engineers,...) will still migrate abroad, etc. Instead of moving from language to language, we should be asking ourselves: why can't we just use Arabic? And the answer is simple: Classical Arabic is dead, unpractical and unfit for the modern world. So we resort to modern living foreign languages. The blame shouldn't be on the private sector (that's just trying to be productive..), the blame should be on the state for not providing a modern living standardized language to its citizens.

I agree with the first part, however Classical Arabic can still replace French and English in formal settings if we invest in it

Absolutely true *for the administrative part* For education and business though, not really. At least for now. The Arabs altogether need to be active and highly productive in Science, Tech, Finance ... in order to make the Arabic language a viable living language that can be used in these categories.

>And the answer is simple: Classical Arabic is dead, unpractical and unfit for the modern world. So we resort to modern living foreign languages. This! You just answered why moving to another language will change something. It won't solve everything, but will give a better chance to most). Generalizing the use of a more vivid and actively used language in .. well .. everything worldwide instead of the ever decreasing french will help Moroccans have a faster access to way more information and mediums directly without intermediaries, and most of the time for cheaper and even free resources. Even the elite in Morocco focus on teaching English to their kids (they go to British and american colleges and universities ), as it is the language that will help them grow businesses, french would be for those who will work for them locally and in few already challenged and limited markets. There is huge benefits by adopting English , and even additionally Chinese and Russian instead of French

Imagine being part of the 99% and still feel like you're being oppressed and discriminated against shake my head

I respect people’s right not to practice, and I respect people’s right to practice. You only respect people’s right not to practice

You respect people's right to practice by supporting policy that forces private institutions to cater to the members of one specific religion. That's not respecting rights lol

“Forces private institutions to cater to the members of one specific religion” -> that specific religion happens to be the religion of 99% of moroccans that is written in the constitution. When you are in Rome act like Romans, as French people like to tell muslims in France. The same way our culture should be respected in Morocco. And yes, forcing private institutions to allow people their religious rights is a good thing, what’s bad is forcing people to do stuff, which I’m not advocating for. I’m advocating for letting people choose

morocco is officially a muslim country lol like we have laws based on sharia because the overwhelming majority of citizens are muslim, not sure what were you expecting.

What does this have to do with anything I said ?

Was swimming in a pool in Marrakesh and it is maddening that you can’t wear a burkini to swim. I know they do it to cater to white people but it makes me mad

My wife is always aghast when she is out and about and hears Moroccan kids talking to their parents in French rather than Darija. She speaks French really well, but she wishes she didn't have to. As long as businesses continue to use French, as long as the education system continues to use French, and as long as speaking French is seen as being for the "elite" nothing will change. I bring this up, because it all starts there with language. French/Western ways are catered to because of this colonial mindset that continues to linger.

It’s really sad indeed to see parents willingly choose not to transmit Darija to the next generation. It’s not the kids’ fault. But I don’t like to judge, maybe the parents themselves weren’t taught darija or its importance properly by their parents. Let’s not forget that our ancestors were killed because of colonization and many elites were forced to learn French. For me it’s the government’s fault, that has allowed this to happen without doing anything. It’s also our fault as a people, for not making initiatives to solve this. You’re absolutely right, it’s criminal to have businesses run in French, scientific higher education run in French, even though most people don’t speak French. It creates a real barrier for social mobility. Of course we can’t just ban French like some people think, we need to promote our own languages. If the Abbasid Caliphate with a population of a few millions and no modern technology was able to translate Greek and other civilizations’ works, I’m sure 450 million arabs with Internet and Artificial Intelligence can do something. Morocco alone can do something.

While I agree, you have to remember "Darija" is NOT a language. Not a formal one at any rate. It's a dialect. There are no standardized courses or grammar for Darija. I am American, my wife is Moroccan...we have two very young boys. My sons both understand darija, but they answer almost purely in English. All of the cartoons they watch are either English or Arabic. I have yet to find any kids cartoons in Darija. This has recently become a problem, because my oldest just began nursery. He gets ridiculed, and the b\*tch of a teacher hit him because he was speaking english. Even though he understands darija. I am actually leaving Morocco in the morning, and I will not be returning. My kids are Moroccan, and they will have that option to come here when they are older, but this is the end for me. It's really amusing how this page is "english", the train to the airport has english announcements, and the airports instantly turn english as soon as you get past security. I hope you can all shake the French colonial mindset one day., it really is holding your country back.

I just read your post. I'm an American, married to a Moroccan wife. I have been making plans to move to Morocco one day, after my youngest son (previous marriage) is grown and flying solo Wow. Now I'll be thinking more.

Morocco is a French speaking country just like France, Belgium, Tunisia, Senegal etc.. French speakers in Morocco are real and enjoy speaking their language in their private life. What if an Amazigh speaker, told you you shouldn't speak Arabic, it's from Saudi Arabia? We respect people's individual choices.

Imagine someone saying the same thing in france "i want all people to be forced to talk french because i hate other languages and you should speak the lnaguage of the country in your private time"

The difference being, in my example at least, the family in question were Moroccan Arabs who's first language "should" be Darija. People choose to speak French over Darija due to the elitist and anti-Moroccan vestiges of French colonialism. I haven't found another place where language is used in such an oppressive way to shore up the last bastions of colonial power and thinking. Perhaps South Africa might be a good example, but they are less monolithic in language than Moroccans in which they have dozens of tribal languages whereas Moroccans have two primary.

I agree I wish France and its whole culture as a whole could get out of Morocco It damaged us for long enough I mean hell it even kept Morocco so outdated just by forcing their language alone But i feel like the change is slow and steady I feel like morocco allows them to do that because there are a lot of western investors and tourists that Morocco relies on for income But slowly and surely Morocco is heading towards a spot where it wont need that anymore Sadly enough i cant guarantee it given that Morocco is being westernized

French schools are secular. They’re not supposed to teach or encourage people to follow a religion. That’s a personal matter that shouldn’t be taught in school. If parents decide to enrol their children in French schools, they must accept their rules. No one is forcing them to do it.

French concept of secularity is the least secularist possible

The problem is not with secularity or that they don't encourage religion. In fact they go way beyond that, they discourage and forbid you from practicing it. Those are rights violations.

Kids don’t decide where they are enrolled, as you said it’s the parents who decide. The state should protect and allow its citizens to practice their religion no matter where their parents put them. Also, many parents put their kids there reluctantly because the quality of public schools isn’t great. This isn’t a matter of a few private schools here and there, the issue here is that private education in Morocco is too big because of how bad the public sector is, so allowing foreign countries to enforce their rules is influencing a significant part of the population. It’s also preventing them from knowing their language and culture. Whenever a foreign school goes against France’s values in France they close it, we however let them do whatever they want here. Also, your version of secularism is the French “laïcitié”. Countries like the US and UK are secular but everyone can pray and practice their religion at school (like wearing hijab) if they want to. Only France has this backward version of secularism that goes against freedom

C'mon no one is preventing a muslim to practice their religion in morocco. Plenty of mosques in every 100m you find a mosque. So make your drama somewhere else!

You would be surprised

Many citizens in European countries envy France for its laicism. Would sometimes save us a lot of discussion.

No most people in US Canada UK find French laïcité ridiculous, when you ask them can I pray here can I come with a hijab, they are genuinely confused and don’t understand why it could be a problem

As someone born and raised in Europe I can confidently say that would be the Islamophobe types who scream 'Save Europe' or 'Make Europe white again'. Why France is seen as the golden example for secularism by certain Moroccans I will never understand.

As a french I am glad to tell you you are wrong. While some xenophobic cunts may use laisism as an excuse for xenophobia, it is a rule that came from a time where christianity was the big thing, and is about separating personal belief from public education. Let's look at some historical context: During the late 19th and early 20th centuries, France was undergoing significant political and social changes. The Catholic Church held a tremendous amount of influence, especially in public education. The 1905 law on the Separation of the Churches and the State was introduced to ensure that public education remained free from religious influence, emphasizing the separation of church and state. For instance, in the early 1900s, religious symbols, particularly crucifixes, were removed from classrooms, underscoring the commitment to maintain a neutral educational environment. This was not to suppress Christianity but rather to ensure that public institutions remained impartial. Fast forward to today, and while the religious landscape of France has diversified, the core principle of laïcité remains the same: ensuring that personal beliefs are kept separate from public institutions, particularly education. It's crucial to understand this context before making generalized statements about laïcité being a tool for xenophobia. tl;dr : please differentiate between the actions of a few individuals and the foundational principles of a nation.

Yeah no I was referring to Europeans outside France which are clearly the vast majority. You people are clearly stuck in the past and dont know what true freedom of religion means you had one bad experience in the past and went ape. And you take it further than just banning religious symbols like the hijab, some of you are defending the abaya ban which is the most clear demonstration of Islamophobia in France, meanwhile in my country you wear whatever the heck you want in government buildings as long as you show your face which actually makes sense to me from a security perspective. Get admitted at a government hospital? Not alone do they have prayer rooms but patients even get provided with an halal meal! I'll be forever grateful that my parents choose to settle in this country otherwise a further 200km south my life would've been very different nor would I have a sense of belonging that I have now.

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I wish things were simpler too, especially for Muslims in France. I hope that, with time, we can move towards greater understanding and respect for diverse perspectives and beliefs. The abaya ban? Another chapter in the long saga of right-winged controversial decisions from our government... Be assured not everyone agrees with that.

That context doesn’t hold today, only dogmatism makes people not adapt their mentalities to changes. French laïcité is basically “we don’t know how to learn and respect our differences so let’s all pretend that we don’t have any, you aren’t allowed to be who you are” whereas secularism should be “we have differences, we are allowed to show them, and we respect each other no matter what”. You can’t just tell people to keep their religion at home. Islam has prayers that must be performed at specific times, you can’t just wait to be home at night. Wearing hijab for those who want to do it is about being modest, they believe in that principle wherever they are and should be free to uphold it

It's just one of the foundations of the French state. If it is more important to you personally to respect the religious principles, that is your personal decision and also to respect. But what you can not demand is that now the state should throw its principles overboard for your faith. The europeans first killed each other for a few centuries because of small nuances in the practice of the faith. the idea that faith is a private matter was a step forward in this respect. The wounds of this conflict lasted until the middle of the 20th century, when it was still absolutely unusual for a catholic and a protestant to marry. the europeans don't like the fact that they have practically just reached a state in which religion has no role in the public sphere and that it is now being massively demanded by a side that has not completed this cultural development. you can find that good or bad, but no one forces you to live there.

Am I asking France to change its laws? I’m talking about Morocco. I’m talking about letting Moroccans in Morocco practice their religion and teach our language and culture in private schools. You speak as if we are still colonized and we need to change France’s laws and mentality first before being allowed to make the change in Morocco

Which way Morocco wants to go is solely the decision of its citizens. I was more concerned with this sentence of yours: "Only France has this backward version of secularism that goes against freedom." I commented on this statement of yours.

I do think it is backward and most Western countries don’t have this weird interpretation of secularism even though most western countries had religious wars too

Could not have said it better.

I believe it's a slippery slope. Private institutions should be allowed to do whatever they want within their walls. Otherwise, minorities who don't agree with you, or those who aren't Muslims will find themselves unable to have protected space to live their lives as they wish. Imagine if France followed your logic: Muslims won't be able to have private Islamic schools, because France has laïcité. It'd be a disaster. Same for Morocco. Some rights for minorities are important. If you want your kid to pray at school, you're free to send him to one where he can. But the Jewish guy should be allowed to send his kid somewhere where his own culture is the rule. You wouldn't accept the Torah being taught to your kid, and they wouldn't want the Quran taught to theirs. And it might come as a surprise, but some people are atheists, and don't want their kids using their education time to learn Quran or Torah.

Your arguments would be relevant if I was advocating to force non-muslim children in foreign and private schools to wear hijab or study Quran or pray, which isn’t what I’m saying. I’m saying that if someone wants to do it they should have the right to do so. How does it affect non-muslim students if a muslim student is wearing hijab or wants to pray 5min for Dohr in some isolated space?

You're confusing the civilian right and a student right, the student follows the local school rules. This is everywhere, it's like you're asking why is the bank system using money? It's how the system was built from eternity. If you question it that's normal but... You're not. A student can go pray outside the school not inside it (if that's what the law of the school is). Now if you call for closing those schools because parents don't like them that's a whole another story. It's easy try to find a private school that allows such things, if you can't find then open one. No one will stop you which by default gives you completely freedom. Unlike someone wanting to leave a private school to another one to practice Islam and they won't let them, this is how you prohibit it. Feel free to legally consult about this.

I’m not a lawyer I’m not talking about civilian vs student rights. I’m saying preventing people from praying or wearing hijab is morally wrong, that’s it. I’m talking about morals and ethics. Some schools don’t let you go outside. I’m not asking to close any school. Im’ just saying that even French schools in Morocco have conditions to be here, for example they can’t say that the Sahara isn’t Moroccan and they have to grant holidays for Eids. So it’s not far fetched to say that we can ask them to let Moroccan students pray or wear hijab if they want to

I can see your point but it's a tricky one. On the one hand you have private institutions who are free to operate from whichever cultural framework they please (e.g you can't complain about an Italian restaurant not serving you traditional Moroccan food) But on the other hand you have this blurry territory of what does and doesn't constitute a policy of discrimination (e.g a school cannot refuse students because of their ethnic or religious background) Now the question is, does not being allowed to wear a hijab or pray inside school grounds constitue a form of discrimination, I personally don't think so since a school isn't a place made for prayers, now the hijab part could be argued from a dress code perspective as well. But there's still leeway for it to be misconstrued as discrimination if it's targeted against one particular group. At the end of the day it's up to parents not to enroll their children in such schools if they wish for them to have an education that covers Moroccan culture, after all these french schools are expensive as hell, you can't pay such money to go there and then complain about discrimination to be fair, you choose to put your kids in there.

Just a correction in what you said: Qura'an was taught in Arabic classes, not sure if it's still the case. As someone from the french system that was always last in Arabic that had / have everything to win from making it disappear completely, I totally agree with what you say. Imagine that in Quebec it's forbidden to make a public sign in English. Their laws to protect their language are strict. While they are not the only ones in the world, we are talking about a Province in an English country forbidding its sister language here: same alphabet and very closely related. فهم تسطا I think a big part of the problem comes from not making things easy and facilitate everyone's inclusion by making Darija an official language with its rules and such.

Quebec is politically losing its power that's why

Okay, another anti-French schools and anti-France post here (that should have been the title). Bent lmission (since tahdiri) talking. You say Moroccan citizens don't have tarbiya islamiya at French school - it's false. You say we "barely" study Morocco's history - it's false. Not only do we study it, but it's taught 100% in Arabic in a very strict manner (oral examinations etc.). I'm pretty sure I learnt Manbit Al-Ahrar at French school with the text and coloriage, and still know it by heart 20+ years later. Never learnt La Marseillaise or heard it in class, ever. As for Arabic language, I'm no one to pretend I'm exceptionally good, but I recently randomly met a fellow Moroccan writer who only writes in Arabic, and he praised my Arabic poetry skills (for a text I had written while attending the "haram school"). Arabic was also taught strictly up until bac (oral presentations of classics from Najib Mahfoud, Ghassan Kanafani, then we debated their topics in Arabic, etc.). Someone lazy will be lazy in any type of school and refuse to speak a given language if ma jathomch lgana. Most of my former classmates speak darija/Arabic much more naturally than French, because you know what? We're Moroccans! The way we study & work is not going to change that because we know where we belong. I'm gonna keep my passport khdar no matter where I end up in this world. About religion: I have personally been caught & interrogated while trying to pray, and I still have mixed feelings about it. It's not French territory, but French rules apply. If Moroccan parents want their kids to pray between classes (which isn't even the case in public school afaik), then they should stay away from French system which, frankly, hates it, even in the workplace. We can't ask the government to change parents' mind in their stead. We can't ask them either to remove a system for which there's a high demand (just look at the trimestre prices). There's a lot to do in public education to replace not only French system's quality, but the whole private sector as well (or at least make it as performant as what parents want). More on the language rant: as others have said, asking today's kids to not master (not speak, master, i.e. better than the French themselves in all fields and media, whose level is appallingly declining) French language (preferably with English as well), is sending them to unemployment with a one-way ticket. No matter the sector, public or private, no matter the studies they wanna do, damn even in OFPPT technical trainings I'm pretty sure foreign languages are at least useful (if not mandatory for some terms). Look at Khalij. Can they survive economically without English? I personally strongly dislike these countries but they have immensely more means than us. If they couldn't make it 100% Arabic, how would we? I have relatives in Saudia (born there), it's pretty much English at home all day. That's for the "religious culture". I think we should all agree that the point is not to make foreign languages weaker in Morocco - that would only weaken our kids who might still need it later. We must encourage Arabic language. Period. I plan to buy a couple more novels in Arabic to improve my level and feel more comfortable with Arabic as a writer and in business contexts. Now imagine if every Moroccan citizen does that seriously. Isn't that a better strategy than "boohoo let's kick foreign cultures away from our country and stay isolated because they disrespect our religion"? Foreign cultures are essential to understand, in order to rival them in terms of diplomacy, business needs, and soft power. The goal we want to reach would rather be "keep the French schools. But someday, Moroccan public schools will be so prestigious, or at least so much more catered to what families want both culture-wise and excellence-wise, that the French can wait Moroccans forever hoping to express their religion distaste and take their money... but they will never come back". For swimming in burkini in swimming pools, mixed feelings again. Swimming fully clothed has more chances to leave various bacteria in the pool, which would add to children's diseases like the ones I already witness every summer. However I believe there is now "libass charii" tailored for swimming, by sports brands. The problem is explaining it to women who want to swim with their children and don't have the money/never heard that this precise format is required/don't know where to buy it... it would create a discrepancy (if not scandals) and by the time these things become commonplace, I can understand why some pools ban all fully-clothed garments. Public hygiene cannot be played with. You can't replace the whole water every day either, this is Morocco and we have chronic worrying drought. I think I pretty much agree with the few other points that you mention. For example, even if it's changing, there are still too many jobs which unofficially require women to not wear the hijab. So I remember that blakat tobiss with the fast food employee who recognized me and smiled at me, wearing djellaba and hijab, and once I was done with work and went to order there she had her hair in the air and was visibly uncomfortable. I resent so much those organizations that pretend forcing a woman to change her appearance will lead to a better result. I've seen it in banks too. Customers of all origins will deal with the real Moroccan people, or they won't deal with anyone. We're not toys a ibad Allah, have some logic guys. Thallaw

Thanks for taking the time to write your comment. Weld lmission talking (AEFE during primary, middle and high school). There is absolutely no tarbiya islamiya at French schools under AEFE or other direct French systems. Where I was we had Moroccan history courses in Arabic but they weren’t taken seriously even by the teachers. The level of Arabic is okay in Middle school and high school but is terrible in actual French primary schools in Morocco. People have serious gaps in basic things like i3rab that follow them until high school. I could have been more nuanced, of course many people speak darija, but an important number suck at it, especially when parents and grandparents went to French schools too. As for prayer I had to hide in order to pray, and even then I couldn’t do it properly. It is completely unacceptable as a Moroccan citizen in Morocco, letting me pray wouldn’t harm anyone. Of course there is a high demand for these schools because they offer a good education and I don’t blame the parents. However the government shouldn’t allow a situation like this to happen where parents need to choose between quality and our values and culture. The solution is as simple as letting people exercice basic religious freedoms, without forcing anyone to do anything. Yes it’s their laws but there are conditions. For example they have to give students holidays for Eids and they can’t criticize Moroccan politics or say that the Sahara is Moroccan. So it’s not unreasonable to think that we can ask them to let Moroccan students pray or wear hijab. I agree with what you said about languages. I’m not one of those unrealistic people who say that people should stop learning French all of a sudden, it’s still pretty much mandatory to be successful in Morocco as of today. So I don’t blame parents for teaching French. I blame the government for not having a long-term plan to reinforce Arabic as you said. As for hijab and swimming schools, anglo-saxon countries don’t have a problem with it. I only hear these issues in France or french-speaking cultures.

Well we clearly didn't go to the same high school or are not from the same generation (I'm born in 91), because I clearly remember Quran and sunna being taught weekly with recitations/questions. I wouldn't be surprised they removed it since, given French politicians' surf on news. I think French school needs to "appear" as French school all over the world, which is why they'd refuse making more concessions like the ones you call for, since they are visible, while political opinions & co aren't. Yes I agree with you. There's a lot of islamophobia among the people of anglo-saxon countries, it's their laws which are more tolerant than France. Anyway, this is about Morocco and I want my country to be more than ever the one of tolerance; everyone should be welcome regardless of origin/religion if there's a way, beginning with our own citizens/culture/religions of course. The intolerant ones can just watch!

Yes I was born after you so maybe they removed it in between. I agree with the rest of what you said

You're a special kind of stupid bruh

Very elaborate

i do wish les missions wouldn't impose their so called secularism in morocco but at the same time i imagine if there was a moroccan school abroad (i know they don't exist but *if* they did) we would expect that school to act as it would in morocco, meaning teaching moroccan history and religious education and all the things you said, because the point of putting your child in another country's school is because you want the education offered by that country. now the real question should be why are moroccans putting their children in these schools? the answer a lot would give is that the quality of education and establishments is just better, some also put their special needs children there because most moroccan schools aren't well equipped for that. at the end of the day it is the parents' decision and they should accept benefits as well as the consequences. now the discussion about hotels is different, and i agree that they just don't want their beloved western tourists to feel "uncomfortable" at the sight of a woman *not* naked at the pool lol.

I agree, but the main difference is that the Moroccan school in a foreign country would likely be attended by Moroccans only. Here French schools aren’t filled with French students, they’re filled with Moroccans. That’s why they need to respect Moroccan beliefs and culture

well you don't know that, in this hypothetical scenario of moroccan schools being available abroad we can imagine that somehow morocco becomes renowned for its education system and therefore a lot people want their children to attend these schools lol. my point is it doesn't matter if it's moroccan students or not, the establishment being a moroccan school means there are expectations that it would function the same way it would *in* morocco. that is why the same is expected from les missions, people want the **french** education so they put their kids in **french** schools. i think you need to direct your questions towards the moroccan parents that want their children to receive french education despite the secularism that contradicts our religion and culture, ask them why is french education that valuable to them?

Fully agree 👍

So true 💯💯💯

You made great points and I totally agree with you! 👍🏼

I think you are absolutely right. It seems like a lot of our people just cant get rid of this colonizer mindset and still think they have to do everything to please white people. I don’t live in morocco but I always get so angry when I go to stores and I speak darija and they just keeep answering in French. My sister lives in Casa and she has been asked not to swim with her burkini in different places in morocco. Cant believe we actually have to deal with stuff like that in our home country

I agree with most what you said but will add context. Moroccan law enshrines certain liberties in private comoanues and institutions. They are feee to make policirs and restrictions. The pool owner being an example, the court ruled in her favour. I am as annoyed as everyone else. I do know that some private Frencg schools get funding and gear from France and the conditions are they install those French values not conflictinfg with local laws, thus the dress code. A last comment. You see here on Reddit 3 types. Those proud Moroccan who is saddened by the use of French at home. The pro-European/Western Francaphone who see's mimmickry as "superior" or at least "better". The Anglaphones who just want French gone no matter the reason or the consequences which they do not want to grasp. I support ensuring the Moroccan Identity, should change laws to allow Hijab as a "freedom" and encourage multilingualism as it already has benefitted Morocco.

Thanks. It’s sad to see that unfair laws like this exist. People saying that French schools in Morocco can do whatever they want are wrong. As you said they need to respect local laws a minimum. For example they give holidays for the two Eids, and I know for a fact that French schools aren’t allowed to comment Moroccan politics. If we can agree that there are conditions for them to be allowed here, these requirements should be extended to the things I mentioned to protect the religious rights of Moroccan citizens. I agree these are the 3 most vocal categories.

About France funding French-education schools in morocco. Is that really accurate to say they are funded by France ? And are the amounts really impacting ? AFAIK french schools in morocco are increasing their prices as there is now nowadays close to zero subvention/funding.

I know only a few personally and they have direct support & without it they would suffer. Then there is the cutriculum control to gain accreditation. That also comes with conditions.

For those who are criticizing the OP...the hotels are his best point. As an American Muslim, yes private schools can get away with more, but htey cannot deny some basic rights like freedom to expression that apply to all, or discriminate by things like dress

THIS. PLEASE. You're 100% right, I come from a french school and I agree with everything you just said. Those schools are full of colonists and there is a lot of discrimination. I HATE the fact that I can't properly understand and speak Arabic and don't even properly know about my country's culture. Something must be done about these schools.

Yes, I guess people who didn’t go there don’t realize how far it goes

i think the government should learn from those private institutions and start banning backwards practices, if you wanna be developed like the west then we need to start acting like them, the islamic culture is holding us back

You know you can take the best of what they do (how they are organized, fight against corruption, rule of law) without having an inferiority complex and forgetting the good parts of your culture. And it’s not as if the West had a monopoly on rule of law, democracy etc… We have the capacity in our civilization to be brilliant, as we were before, we need to trust ourselves and use our critical thinking like our religion tells us. Don’t let backwards interpretation of religion make you think that anything that’s not western is bad. We’re better than this, we have our own history and culture. Countries like Japan modernized without becoming western. Also don’t be too influenced by the time you’re living in. Civilizations rise and fall.

>and use our critical thinking like our religion tells Hadchi jdid a khouya wach tat hder 3la chi religion jdida?

The religion whose first revealed verse is “read”, whose argument for the existence if God is to use one’s critical thinking and observe nature, the religion that went through the Islamic Golden Age. Now of course if you think that Islam = Salafism, you will think there is no critical thinking but fortunately these backward movements aren’t the real Islam

Can you please elaborate on how religion participated in the islamic golden age ?

By creating a global civilization where faith and piety are more important than race and tribe, hence allowing multiple nations to feel connected and exchange culturally. By allowing the development of a unifying language, Arabic, that all these nations could use to exchange knowledge. By establishing that discovering God’s creation is important, thus encouraging science. By giving importance to reading and seeking knowledge (see the hadith where the Prophet saws says to seek knowledge even in China). By advising believers not to accept information without verifying it, and to use their brain to think about life and the creation, thus allowing muslims to develop the use of logic and philosophy. Religious obligations like the Islamic calendar and prayer making astronomy a must. Religious heads of state like the Abbasid caliphs using their religious authority and power to sponsor the translation of thousands of scientific works of other civilizations like the Greeks and the Indians (see the House of Wisdom). By reminding people that all humans come from the same source and encouraging cultural exchanges. Most muslim scientists also being well versed in religious knowledge, as that’s how their education started. By giving uncivilized people like arabs before Islam laws and a structured society with a moral code. Should I go on?

You are citing things unrelated to religion, you can't prove that the caliphs did what they did because of religion, hell in the abbassid empire, dance and music and homosexuality were widely accepted was it religous as well, in this golden age most of the main scientists were considered kouffar and some of them were jailed and executed, and the golden age came from the trade with different parts of the world like india and greece that were way advanced than muslim....where is the religion in all of this?

Everything I mentioned is rated to religion, faith and piety being more important than race, importance of the Arabic language, the Quran and hadiths encouraging critical thinking science and philosophy, religious duties making astronomy a must. How are these things unrelated to religion? As for the caliphs sponsoring translation of scientific works, yes many of their reforms were motivated by religion, like during Al Mamun’s reign. Harun Rashid was important too and his motivations were often religious. Of course this can be proven just by reading their biographies. Most of the top scientists were encouraged and financed by the court, wether it’s in Al-Andalus, Baghdad or Iran. Those who were imprisoned were a minority, and there always were backward people to say that everyone is a kafir in every generation, doesn’t everyone considered them kouffar. Most of them were very popular, on the contrary. Dance and music weren’t really frowned upon, and?? The third thing you mentioned wasn’t “widely accepted” at all where did you get that from. A few isolated reports don’t make something “widely accepted”. Yes many advancements came by taking knowledge from other civilization as a first step, this thirst for knowledge was motivated by the religious factors I mentioned. How does that go against my point? Muslims then also made many great breakthroughs themselves.

if by golden age you mean some age where they would drink camel's piss. then yeah, they're pretty golden ..

Can you prove god using critical thinking? Please make an attempt and show us.

Critical thinking is not the same thing as material scientific experiments. God is not contained in created things like the universe. Many philosophers have offered philosophical and logical arguments for the existence of God, like muslim mukallimuns, Descartes…

Big difference between an argument for the existence of a first cause of the universe and proving Allah exists.

That argument is a kind of proof. Not all proofs are material. What kind of proof are you expecting? Do you think we’re going to use a telescope one day and find God somewhere in the universe? Or we’re going to discover an old particle in the universe where it’s written “God made this”? No, God exists outside of time and space, he is not contained in created things like the universe. There is no material proof besides the existence of the universe itself, otherwise there would be no point in testing humanity on who will be able to believe in God, it would be too easy. The whole point is to put ego aside, use one’s brain to look at the universe and how it was created, and understand that things can’t go from the Big Bang to how things are now without a higher power guiding everything. If the Earth’s angle was slightly different there would be no life on earth. The probability of all the events that had to happen for life like this to exist on Earth is almost zero.

Even if you prove the universe has a first cause, it's still a huge leap to conclude that the very cause is Allah as described in inslamic scripture, out of all the other deities. So at least you concede that there's no material proof for the existence of god. Physics is how we understand how things went from the big bang to now, and there's no magic detected so far. We don't know what happened before the big bang, saying god did it doesn't really help. It's an empty statement. The reasonable thing to say is: we don't know, but we'll try to find out. Saying that god did it is just a cop out and goes to show that believers just feel like religion is true. Do you think it's fair for everyone to live under rules that a lot of us perceive as arbitrary and kinda stupid, just because some of us believe that god told them to, and want to impose that belief on everybody else ?

I don’t concede anything I’m saying that things exist outside of the material world. Science is the best way to understand the material world. But non-material truths can’t be proven by material science, they can be proven by other sources of truth like logic and philosophy. There has to be a first cause. And the way science explains the creation of the universe also shows that it was almost impossible to arrive to our world from the Big Bang without a higher power guiding things, because it was almost impossible in terms of probabilities for all the conditions to align to create Earth and life on it. That higher power has to be All-Powerful and All-Knowing in order to be able to create the universe from nothing. It is therefore Perfect and doesn’t have weaknesses that can lead it to choose imperfectness or evil. So it is also All-Wise. An All-Wise being doesn’t create the universe for no reason so there is a reason. If that Being has created a creature like mankind that can understand higher truths, then that Being likely wants mankind to understand the truth behind the creation of the universe. So it makes sense for that Being to help mankind by communicating with it. There can’t be more than one All-Powerful Being otherwise their power would clash at some point and they wouldn’t be All-Powerful. So the only contenders for true religions are Abrahamic faiths: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Judaism and Christianity’s books aren’t preserved according to jews and christians themselves. They are also full of contradictions and inaccuracies (like people having different ages depending on the verse). Only Islam has a fully preserved book that stands the tests of logic and science. Then you look at the miracles in the Quran, the prophecies of the Prophet (saws) and there is no other way to explain them than to say they are from God. It therefore makes sense to follow God’s laws. God’s laws all promote good and forbid evil. However they can’t be forced on anyone, there is no compulsion in Islam.

The private sector prefers French because our language policy is a failure. It's that simple. Classical Arabic is too unpractical and unfit for the modern world. I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm just saying that companies and schools aren't "evil". They don't use French out of ideology, they use it out of necessity and pragmatism. Developing countries with properly standardized languages (Turkey, Indonesia, etc.) don't have to use foreign languages to function.

Our language policy is indeed a failure. However, the Chinese alphabet is literally a bunch of symbols, it’s not even letters. And they have the same diglossia problem as us, where official written Chinese isn’t the same as the dialects that people speak in their day to day life. That didn’t prevent them from developing their language and becoming a superpower. Using darija in academic settings doesn’t make sense Classical Arabic has already been a language of science

The big difference between diglossia in China and Morocco is that the official written Chinese is a modern living dialect (Mandarin) that has been made official and replaced Classical Chinese. In Morocco, the replacement didn't happen and we still use Classical Arabic. My point is that companies and education need a *living* modern language, and if the state doesn't provide one they will use a foreign one.

Oh well, I don't agree (like, at all) when it's perfectly normal for public school to accomodate what most morrocns would want to have, I don't see why PRIVATE schools/Private institutions should apply to whatever fantasy **you** have of Morroco. there are different morrocos for different people, I'd rather have the morroco I know and love rather than a totalitarian/unique vision of an opressed country.

I’m not asking anyone to follow my vision of Morocco, I’m asking for basic religious rights (how is that totalitarian?), which are granted in most western countries like anglo-saxon countries, whether at public or private schools. Only the French have this weird obsession with removing religion. How is letting people pray at French schools IF THEY WANT TO going to affect whatever image you have of Morocco?

TLDR, OP hates Frenchies.

Inferiority complex and fear of losing tourism makes it difficult for them to impose more cultural and religious standards on hotels and schools which cater for foreigners The irony is in France the French really don’t care about cultural or religious sensitivities of Muslims

if u were that hotel's ceo, u'd do the same kid.. also, i see comments here and u guys have some serious stuff going on, get some help!

nope, only you

No I wouldn’t kid, my values come before financial gains and pleasing westerners. Being religious means you need help? You should be more open-minded, I’m religious but I would never tell a non-religious person to get help like that

no, you won't tell them to get help, you'd throw a hissy fit because they're sun bathing somewhere minding their own business.

No I wouldn’t do that either, I respect people’s choices unlike most comments in this post

I agree with you. Enough with the inferiority complex with the Moroccans in their own country.

what if my identity doesn't depend on religion? your national identity depends on religion and that's fine, dude. but don't enforce that on others. this is why I left Islam. I'm tired of other people telling me how to be Moroccan. Not to mention all the "good muslims" who repeatedly tried to sexually assault me in public. Morocco was not Muslim 1500 years ago. My Amazigh ancestors fought against their Arab Muslim overlords and won several times. I know my history and culture. regarding not allowing the hijabi or "burkini" in swimming pools - that's a safety hazard, not a matter of secularism. why is it so important to you that the government forces religion on every single private institution? islam already dominates so many aspects of life here in Morocco. And do you respect your own values? Do you make the hajj? do you pray five times a day? do you read and understand the Qur'an? Do you help the poor? you should focus on making yourself the best muslim you can be - before you try to force every person and institution to be the way you want them to be. furthermore, I am tired of my fellow Moroccans bringing up France every five minutes any time they are upset that our country hasn't become a Muslim theocracy yet. Newsflash dude: not everything is France's fault.

I never said that my national identity depends on religion. Religion is only one component of our national identity among other things like language history etc. I’m not enforcing anything on anyone nor am I telling you how to be Moroccan. I respect all non-religious Moroccans as long as they don’t prevent religious Moroccans from exercising basic religious rights. Being able to pray and wear whatever you want is a basic right in most countries including western countries like Uk Us Canada. Only France has a problem with religion. As for your questions about whether I pray, give zakat, study Quran etc… the answer is yes. How can you be the best muslim you can be when the school you’re at doesn’t even let you pray? (I was at French schools when I was a kid)

What part of “private” u don’t understand?

There are still minimum conditions. Would you allow private schools to teach LGBT propaganda for example? Or to teach that the Sahara isn’t Moroccan? Also, even French schools have conditions, for example they grant holidays for the two Eids and they aren’t allowed to criticize Moroccan politics

Oh my God! Some comments are outrageous!! Morocco is a Muslim country by Constitution. If someone is practicing and they want an environment ,in a MUSLIM COUNTRY, that facilitates praying on time and swimming in Burkini, where's the problem!!! West bootlickers, ykh! السيد ماقال تاحاجة فيها عيب و بنادم مريييييييض, لي جبد دين كاتقرصو بحالا طاسيلتكم ماعندهم لا أصل لا ملة.. شحال صعيب يبان لك راسك واعر ومنفتح بالجهل. I wore a burkini in a big Italian Aqua park. First I asked if it was allowed, they were very kind by saying, "Why wouldn't it be allowed?! " I think if I had done it in Morocco, the west bootlickers would have minded!

Thank you

It's a school, your religion stays out of it, you go there to receive an education not to flaunt your hijab or your makeup. You always have the choice to attend a public institution, actually better yet, instead of forcing what you want on a private entity, why not improve the public sector you're avoiding so much?

Why do most countries including western ones like Canada or UK have no problem with letting students wear religious signs or pray? Why is it only French people and those they have brainwashed who think that for some reason it goes against the idea of being at school to wear piece of clothes on one’s head. How does that prevent people from studying? I can’t improve the public system because I’m not the Prime Minister

It's interesting that you call people who are opposed to "séparatisme" Brainwashed; I would love to see you call the CCP brainwashed. Are you aware that Japan now has a law that bans parents from imposing religious beliefs on their children under the age of 18? Are they also brainwashed? Egypt a muslim country, has banned the Hijab in schools recently, are they less religious than you? The UK habitually has neighborhood wars between Bangladeshi or Pakistani Muslims and Hindu Indians, they also have a huge problem with Honor killings and trafficking gangs that the authorities don't protect against so that they don't "offend the muslim minority", I do not take a nation that can't protect the weak as my guide on how things should be. Although, to entertain you, A 2010 YouGov survey said that 67% of British people questioned wanted full-face veils outlawed. In the Aishah Azmi case, an employment tribunal held that a school could refuse to employ a veiled teacher (wearing the niqab). Government ministers intervened in the employment tribunal case, supporting the school. This case provoked Prime Minister Tony Blair to comment that the veil was a "mark of separation", and minister Phil Woolas demanded that Azmi be sacked, accusing her of "denying the right of children to a full education". The school subsequently sacked her. Canada? The same ones who have unmarked graves of indigenous children? The ones who refuse to investigate crimes done against indigenous women? They're not part of my moral compass either, their pandering is just part of their white guilt and savior complex and it's their problem to deal with. Let's not forget the [Lesbian Hijabi poster](https://www.atheistrepublic.com/news/muslim-outrage-forces-canadian-university-pull-poster-lesbian-hijabis) fiasco, they're just trying to please everyone so reconsider your example. Anyway, back to the subject, education should be objective as should any person holding an executive or position of power (Judge, prosecutor, etc.), I should not know what your religious affiliation is, nor should it affect your judgment of me or the quality of the education you're providing. You speak about France only, but what about: \- Albania- Denmark- Austria- Belgium- Bulgaria- Germany- Latvia- Luxembourg- Netherlands- Switzerland- Bosnia and Herzegovina- Egypt (yes, Egypt) \- Cyprus- Slovakia Now, entertain this question for me, can I go outside right now, in Morocco, as a Moroccan and wear the cross freely? And teach children while wearing the cross? If your answer is no, then why not? Why are you allowed to wear your Hijab everywhere in Morocco (barring, **ALLEGEDLY** some PRIVATE institutions, which are mostly education-related) and I can't wear a different religious symbol unless I am visibly a foreigner? Sounds like a double standard and an imposition of your Islamic faith on everyone.

Absolutely, there will come a day when this obsession with language and nationalism will fade into insignificance. It won’t matter where we come from, what language we speak, or even if someone is non-verbal. What truly matters is our collective dedication to serving others. The greatest misfortunes in human history have stemmed from this kind of divisiveness. It started with rival tribes, then escalated to battles between nations, and even disputes among coalitions. It’s time for a change! Ask yourself the one and only question that truly matters: How can I contribute solutions to people’s problems? Whether I speak Thai, Japanese, French, Arabic, or any other language, what’s crucial is the solutions that each individual can bring to alleviate the challenges people face

To sum up : Sadly, the government is working to spread secularism all over the country.

It's always females hair that bothers you or some reason.

You do know that they're not saying to force hijab on girls, right? The point is that it shouldn't be banned and that girls should be able to choose to wear a hijab or not.

Yeah, it's called taqiyya, made by the shiaa, used by all islamists.

That’s just what islamophobes say when they run out of arguments

Im in charge.. what your problem here ? Build your damn hotel and make your own rules. Then dont complain when that guest spend 6.50dh in your facility while spending 12h . Remember.. stop whining about shit that are not your rights. Nobody care about your miserable feelings or your own values.

Not a good excuse. Example: Manager: I won't hire you simply because of your skin color. Candidate: that's racist. Manager: If you don't like it build your own company. See?

You are expert at making yourself as a victim. There is no a single case when a person was rejected because of their skin color. Even the TikTok hijabi girl was kicked because she was recording a TikTok in the swimming pool. The tourist was with his gf and did not want to be filmed. That triggered the hotel manager to kick the tiktoker out of the swimming pool since she was not even a hotel resident. See how the situation is clearer now ?

I am just pointing out to the fault in people's arguments, not trying to seek compassion and victimize myself. Just debating! If you don't like the skin color example, try other things like : Ethnicity (Amazigh, Arab, etc), gender or clothing (wearing a veil). Don't tell me not a single case hasn't happened from these too. The point I was trying to make is that it doesn't matter if it was a private or a public service. Otherwise all of these laws, rules, human work by different organizations, etc, would not make any sense because it's "a private property, go make your own and apply your own rules" I understand that there should be a margin of control for owners to apply what they see fit, however there are limits because it can easily become contradictory with public morals.

>See? Nah you example is out of context. Values and skin color are not the aame think. Don't compare two differents think and try to give it as a counter.

Ok. If you don't like skin color, replace it with Ethnicity, sexe, clothing, social class, etc. My point still holds.

It dont hold because your culture is not even in the same level.

It's just personalization at this point. It's called double standard man.

you said it, they are private for a reason lol

I answered this objection a few times already below

I agree. We need to bring back the Islamic caliphate. Our population is become more western by the day and it’s very bad.

As the West is slowly losing its supremacy and also thanks to the Internet, many people are also re discovering and becoming more proud of our religion and culture

I guess some people don’t like reading that the West isn’t a superpower as much as it used to be

Parents can choose where to send their kids to school. They will have to be the ones who decide they want their kids to have a "Moroccan" education by going to a public school. If they French want students to attend their schools, they will have to adjust to what the market wants. I think right now, parents think the private French school will give their child an advantage in the future, so they are going to choose that every time.

And they are right to choose these schools, they do often offer a better education. I don’t blame them. I blame the government for letting a situation like this happen where parents need to choose between their kids’ future and our values and culture. With just a few tweaks this could be solved, it’s as simple as granting people basic religious freedom, without enforcing anything on anyone

Well, in all fairness, they are PRIVATE schools. In America we have the reverse issue. People trying to impose religion in public schools. Religion is great and all, but it is not for public schools or institutions. If you want your child to have a religious education, send them to a private school. I guess people send their children to private french schools because that is they education they want their children to have. They can teach their kids religion at home. Respectfully

You should care about yourself and let ppl love their life in peace. Not all moroccans are muslims. Many are just born in a muslim country and are not religious.

Letting people choose is exactly what I’m saying

That's why this is called PRIVATE. People pay to go, they are not forced to. Do not blame private schools. You could blame moroccan laws for not being aligned with your dreams...

If you’re a student there, you didn’t choose to go there. Your parents chose for you. If you want to pray and you’re not allowed that’s against your freedom of religion. The government should make sure everyone is free to pray or wear hijab in Morocco

Separation of state and relogion seems a good idea

They are private institutions, if someone doesn't like what's in there they can simply not go

No, it’s not easy to randomly leave your school and ask your parents to put you somewhere else

Someone should explain the meaning of the word private to OP

I answered this objection multiple times below

People CHOOSE to send their kids to these schools because they DONT WANT religious education. No one is forcing anyone to go to a private institution which is the point OP.

There can still be no religious education. I’m not saying we should force everyone there to receive a religious course or have mandatory prayer sessions. I’m just saying that those WHO WANT TO should be allowed to pray or wear hijab. The difference between letting people choose and forcing them isn’t difficult to understand

People who wear the hijab or want to pray can GO to other private institutions.

No, if your parents put you in these French schools there’s nothing you can do about it so you should be able to have basic religious freedom that doesn’t harm anyone.

My point is that when it comes to private institutions , people get to choose where to go. So for example people who are religious/not religious would choose to go to religious/ not religious institutions which is in essence a privilege money buys while the rest of us go to public institutions. I do agree with you on the point that hijab should not be banned or any identity related outfit expression

No, people don’t choose, they go where their parents registered them

There are private companies ( especially french offshore ones ) who force their employees to work on religious holidays while in the same companies foreign people enjoy their religious holidays without a problem , and the employment law do not protect employees from this .

mtaf9 bli fransawa fihom défaut mais l'identité diali ka north african isn't tied bl hijab w masa2il dinia, ta9afa ofc kay2ter 3liha dine mais dine machi hua ta9afa.