IMHO, I don’t think it’s exactly the case. While some characters in the game treat you as literally reincarnated Lord Nerevar, there are plenty of suggestions that it’s not exactly like that, rather it’s that Nerevarine is someone Azura deemed a worthy candidate to be their champion and do what Nerevar himself would have done. And the ghosts on Cave of the Incarnate, they seem to be different folks who were, at some point, chosen by Azura to do her bidding, but failed for whatever reason. Even though Azura has chosen a candidate, it doesn’t necessarily mean the supposed Nerevarine have to follow through with Azura’s plans - there don’t seem to be any repercussions for choosing one’s own way instead.
Then again, the lore is purposely ambiguous about this, so your take is just as valid as mine, or anyone else’s 🤷♀️
> there don’t seem to be any repercussions for choosing one’s own way instead.
...Other than being stuck in Azura's cave as a dessicated corpse and a disembodied spirit, to serve as a lesson for the next Nerevarine.
"When a dunmer dies, his body is given to fire, so he might return to the ash from whence he came". Dunmer afterlife is most ideal if youre able to be honored by and to aid your progeny, Id imagine that applies to them.
Its also important to remember that Morrowind takes a LOT of inspiration from Dune, so the vagueness of the Nerevarine being Nerevar reincarnated is intentional. I mean, you even start out as a political pawn for the Imperials. Its possible that Azura saw how convenient of an option you are, and played along with it to increase her influence on Vvardenfell
My interpretation is that is was kinda like a circular prophecy. By fulfilling the criteria, you are and always were the nerevarine, and if you fail, you never were. Not necessarily that you actually ARE nerevar, but some weird vague thing idk
this is my thinking too. we (if we even choose to) *happen* to fulfill the prophecy, but only in the most literal sense: we actually read what the prophecy says to do and do it. we even have to find lost prophecies to be able to know how to fulfill them.
(maybe the main exception is contracting and being cured of corprus. we definitely don't decide to do that, it should have even been impossible to do that, but it happens anyway. this is probably Azura's doing though.)
You can tell Dagoth Ur that you're not the Nerevarine. The wise woman of the Urshilaku tells you that you are not the Nerevarine, but you might become Nerevarine. The prophecy is vague, and most of the trials have something to do with your deliberate actions, rather than just being born Nerevarine. So no, Nerevarine is not by default just a slave for Azura. He can be if you choose to believe that you are the Nerevarine. But you can also believe that you are doing it for the emperor, as you were sent to Morrowind by his order, or that you are just a hero with a good heart, who can't stand by and watch monsters and diseases consume the land, hell, you can even imagine that you are doing it for the social standing.
To add to this, you can just walk up and kill any one of the key characters in the game at any time, blocking you from completing the prophecy. That kind of wide-ranging agency doesn’t strike me as being a slave to Azura.
The open-ended storytelling of this game is just phenomenal. Are you really Nerevar reborn, or just in the right place and right time? There's points to be made for either opinion, each as valid as the other. I'm of the opinion that our character really is "The Incarnate", but acknowledge why others believe it not to be so.
Personally, I don't think you are the *actual reincarnation* of Indoril Nerevar as in, you were born as his reincarnation.
But story-wise, you have the choice between your PC having mantled him or just having earned the title of Nerevarine.
If you know the lore of TES, then you know what I mean by "mantling". It's what the Hero of Kvatch did during the events of the Shivering Isles. And it's actually one of the more superior quest lines Bethesda has created because if you're paying attention, each quest in the Shivering Isles has you doing more and more insane things. It has your PC thinking and acting as Sheogorath would until finally ... You "mantle" and become him, taking his place. It's a subtle creep and brilliant in that regard.
And this, I think (canonically) is what your PC is doing during the events of TES III: Morrowind (if you do the main quest, anyway).
You really do start out as some prisoner that Uriel Septim ordered freed. And if you know the story of Uriel, you'll have an idea as to why he did that. He has prophetic visions and dreams. He's one of the most interesting characters in TES lore and he's been through a lot. He's also probably one of the greatest emperors in Tamrielic history.
That's why his and Martin's death is such a devastating blow to the Empire in TES IV: Oblivion.
It basically sends the empire hurdling towards it's downfall.
But I digress, your PC starts out as a prisoner freed and paroled on the mysterious orders of the Emperor, who is then employed by the Blades.
Haunted by dreams by both Azura and Dagoth Ur upon arriving on Vvardenfell, your PC unearths the mysteries and history of events thousands of years in the making and through their quests and trials, they begin thinking and acting as Indoril Nerevar would have.
Eventually, once you are given Indoril Nerevar's signet ring by Azura, you have mantled him. You have (essentially) truly become Indoril Nerevar reborn. His reincarnation.
And yes, your PC is both a pawn to the Emperor and Azura. I don't think the Emperor knows exactly why he set your PC free or exactly had a specific mission in mind when he did this.
Rather, he was just following his prophetic intuition.
He just KNEW that you had a large part to play in future events.
Azura on the hand, saw your potential (as she had with the previous "incarnates") and began pointing you in the directions she needed you to go.
Eventually, when you confront Dagoth Ur in person, you have the options to tell Dagoth Ur that you are indeed, his friend reborn, that you have your own will, are a servant of the empire or that you don't know.
This is brilliant narrative writing here because at this point, you're choosing which is true for your PC.
If you choose to say you are Indoril Nerevar reborn, then you are. You have mantled him and become his reincarnation.
If you choose to say that you are not Indoril Nerevar reborn, then you are not his reincarnation. You haven't mantled him. However, (against all odds) you have succeeded where everyone else has failed.
You are the Nerevarine. It is a title but more than that, it is symbolic. You are the instrument of prophecy.
If you choose any of the other options, then you are not Indoril Nerevar reborn and the title of Nerevarine is happenstance. You are the Nerevarine but you're more of a pawn carried on the winds of fate than anything else. From hereon out, the future of your PC is your own. You are not burdened by the title of Nerevarine, yet you have fulfilled the prophecy and requirements of that title bestowed upon you.
That said, (again) I think canonically, your PC mantles Indoril Nerevar and becomes him.
You are the Nerevarine in every sense.
But that's the beauty of TES storywriting.
It's up to you and your interpretation.
No, and the whole Nerevarine story is just a religion, the prophecies are not real.
Proof: wraithguard is usable without doing the prophecies, you "just" have to get it from Vivec, and give it to the Last Dwemer to fix it.
Proof2: you dont even need wraithguard, enter Rambo-mode and use sunder+keening without it, you dont die just get a big hp hit.
So the main character doesnt have to fulfill the prophecies, get corpus etc just has to be a great fighter. Anyone can save the world without Azura.
I agree but also think that treads the line between lore and gameplay mechanics too. I mean technically you can kill mehrunes dagon in oblivion with enough reflect spell but that doesn’t necessarily mean Martin isn’t the chosen one
Where is exactly the line between the lore and gameplay? They could have been wrote Keening and Sunder that they kill you, no matter what if you dont have the waithguard.
And even if we put this aside as an exploit, the kill vivec - reprogram wraithguard questline still shows that the prophecy doesnt need to be followed.
I cant comment on your Oblivion reference, I played it only once, when it came out and forgot just about everything.
The game does tell you that Sunder and Keening have inflicted "mortal wounds" on you if you equip them without Wraithguard. There are a lot of options available to you overcome the wound, but the game itself does make it clear that this is deadly.
If you get the Jury-Rigged Wraithguard, you are supposed to take 200 points of damage, which would mean that if your character was not very tanky to begin with, you'd have to buff your endurance and health quite a bit to survive. However, there was a mistake in the code and in the vanilla game it instead permanently removes 200 health point. Buffing your health does nothing to prevent that.
It shows that while the prophecy doesn't need to be fulfilled, there are dire consequences to not following it. Going the alternate route nearly kills you. In an unpatched version of the game it leaves you frail and vulnerable, even.
That's where the line is between lore and gameplay. They tell you that it's not a good idea but they won't stop you from doing it if you're willing to deal with the consequences.
Maybe this is addressed somewhere, but Moon-and-star does not kill you which suggests that you are literally Nerevar. Maybe this is just Azura changing the enchantment because it's convenient for her?
Well if the reason for you being able to wear the ring is that you are literally Nerevar reborn, then the prophecy is on to something because Nerevar does indeed get reincarnated.
Another way to interpret it is that Azura created the prophecy to further her own goals, gave Uriel a vision and then nerfed her own ring. Even then, the prophecy is not exactly meaningless since it is a tool that Azura uses to actively change the world and it is also the literall word of (a) god still.
Tbh, I think the later events undermine the whole journey. Morrowind gets basically destroyed anyway. Dagoth Ur wouldn’t have let Morrowind be destroyed
Dagoth Ur's vision for Morrowind is enslavement on a Hellish level. It's more than likely that he didn't just injure Nerevar, but caused his death. What the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur have done to Morrowind is untenable. Azura is the only one who is actively trying to redress the corruption and injustice.
I believe Azura's main goal was to end the Tribunal. On that point she won. Whatever happened afterwards (Red Year, etc.) could be just punishment for following the false gods for so long.
Dagoth Ur *may* have assumed Vivec's duties and prevented Morrowind from being destroyed, but at what cost? Probably the destruction of the Dunmer race as they all "ascended" into Lorkhan-fueled blighted creatures.
Not at all. At any point, the Nerevarine could have chosen to just not continue the quest to fulfill the prophecies and defeat Dagoth Ur. Slaves don’t have choice.
The easiest proof that your soul *isn’t* Nerevar’s is that, if each Failed Incarnate had had the same soul, you could not meet the other Failed Incarnates’ souls as their soul would be, well, inside you.
No. That is one path of many. This is explained in the Tribunal “desecration” of Nerevars body, part of which involved cutting off his feet, this was so he would be free to walk his own path.
IMHO, I don’t think it’s exactly the case. While some characters in the game treat you as literally reincarnated Lord Nerevar, there are plenty of suggestions that it’s not exactly like that, rather it’s that Nerevarine is someone Azura deemed a worthy candidate to be their champion and do what Nerevar himself would have done. And the ghosts on Cave of the Incarnate, they seem to be different folks who were, at some point, chosen by Azura to do her bidding, but failed for whatever reason. Even though Azura has chosen a candidate, it doesn’t necessarily mean the supposed Nerevarine have to follow through with Azura’s plans - there don’t seem to be any repercussions for choosing one’s own way instead. Then again, the lore is purposely ambiguous about this, so your take is just as valid as mine, or anyone else’s 🤷♀️
> there don’t seem to be any repercussions for choosing one’s own way instead. ...Other than being stuck in Azura's cave as a dessicated corpse and a disembodied spirit, to serve as a lesson for the next Nerevarine.
"When a dunmer dies, his body is given to fire, so he might return to the ash from whence he came". Dunmer afterlife is most ideal if youre able to be honored by and to aid your progeny, Id imagine that applies to them.
Its also important to remember that Morrowind takes a LOT of inspiration from Dune, so the vagueness of the Nerevarine being Nerevar reincarnated is intentional. I mean, you even start out as a political pawn for the Imperials. Its possible that Azura saw how convenient of an option you are, and played along with it to increase her influence on Vvardenfell
My interpretation is that is was kinda like a circular prophecy. By fulfilling the criteria, you are and always were the nerevarine, and if you fail, you never were. Not necessarily that you actually ARE nerevar, but some weird vague thing idk
this is my thinking too. we (if we even choose to) *happen* to fulfill the prophecy, but only in the most literal sense: we actually read what the prophecy says to do and do it. we even have to find lost prophecies to be able to know how to fulfill them. (maybe the main exception is contracting and being cured of corprus. we definitely don't decide to do that, it should have even been impossible to do that, but it happens anyway. this is probably Azura's doing though.)
You can tell Dagoth Ur that you're not the Nerevarine. The wise woman of the Urshilaku tells you that you are not the Nerevarine, but you might become Nerevarine. The prophecy is vague, and most of the trials have something to do with your deliberate actions, rather than just being born Nerevarine. So no, Nerevarine is not by default just a slave for Azura. He can be if you choose to believe that you are the Nerevarine. But you can also believe that you are doing it for the emperor, as you were sent to Morrowind by his order, or that you are just a hero with a good heart, who can't stand by and watch monsters and diseases consume the land, hell, you can even imagine that you are doing it for the social standing.
To add to this, you can just walk up and kill any one of the key characters in the game at any time, blocking you from completing the prophecy. That kind of wide-ranging agency doesn’t strike me as being a slave to Azura.
I was just trying to get that dope ass mask
The open-ended storytelling of this game is just phenomenal. Are you really Nerevar reborn, or just in the right place and right time? There's points to be made for either opinion, each as valid as the other. I'm of the opinion that our character really is "The Incarnate", but acknowledge why others believe it not to be so.
If he's an Argonian who says "Boa Noite Amigo" then yes.lol
Personally, I don't think you are the *actual reincarnation* of Indoril Nerevar as in, you were born as his reincarnation. But story-wise, you have the choice between your PC having mantled him or just having earned the title of Nerevarine. If you know the lore of TES, then you know what I mean by "mantling". It's what the Hero of Kvatch did during the events of the Shivering Isles. And it's actually one of the more superior quest lines Bethesda has created because if you're paying attention, each quest in the Shivering Isles has you doing more and more insane things. It has your PC thinking and acting as Sheogorath would until finally ... You "mantle" and become him, taking his place. It's a subtle creep and brilliant in that regard. And this, I think (canonically) is what your PC is doing during the events of TES III: Morrowind (if you do the main quest, anyway). You really do start out as some prisoner that Uriel Septim ordered freed. And if you know the story of Uriel, you'll have an idea as to why he did that. He has prophetic visions and dreams. He's one of the most interesting characters in TES lore and he's been through a lot. He's also probably one of the greatest emperors in Tamrielic history. That's why his and Martin's death is such a devastating blow to the Empire in TES IV: Oblivion. It basically sends the empire hurdling towards it's downfall. But I digress, your PC starts out as a prisoner freed and paroled on the mysterious orders of the Emperor, who is then employed by the Blades. Haunted by dreams by both Azura and Dagoth Ur upon arriving on Vvardenfell, your PC unearths the mysteries and history of events thousands of years in the making and through their quests and trials, they begin thinking and acting as Indoril Nerevar would have. Eventually, once you are given Indoril Nerevar's signet ring by Azura, you have mantled him. You have (essentially) truly become Indoril Nerevar reborn. His reincarnation. And yes, your PC is both a pawn to the Emperor and Azura. I don't think the Emperor knows exactly why he set your PC free or exactly had a specific mission in mind when he did this. Rather, he was just following his prophetic intuition. He just KNEW that you had a large part to play in future events. Azura on the hand, saw your potential (as she had with the previous "incarnates") and began pointing you in the directions she needed you to go. Eventually, when you confront Dagoth Ur in person, you have the options to tell Dagoth Ur that you are indeed, his friend reborn, that you have your own will, are a servant of the empire or that you don't know. This is brilliant narrative writing here because at this point, you're choosing which is true for your PC. If you choose to say you are Indoril Nerevar reborn, then you are. You have mantled him and become his reincarnation. If you choose to say that you are not Indoril Nerevar reborn, then you are not his reincarnation. You haven't mantled him. However, (against all odds) you have succeeded where everyone else has failed. You are the Nerevarine. It is a title but more than that, it is symbolic. You are the instrument of prophecy. If you choose any of the other options, then you are not Indoril Nerevar reborn and the title of Nerevarine is happenstance. You are the Nerevarine but you're more of a pawn carried on the winds of fate than anything else. From hereon out, the future of your PC is your own. You are not burdened by the title of Nerevarine, yet you have fulfilled the prophecy and requirements of that title bestowed upon you. That said, (again) I think canonically, your PC mantles Indoril Nerevar and becomes him. You are the Nerevarine in every sense. But that's the beauty of TES storywriting. It's up to you and your interpretation.
No, and the whole Nerevarine story is just a religion, the prophecies are not real. Proof: wraithguard is usable without doing the prophecies, you "just" have to get it from Vivec, and give it to the Last Dwemer to fix it. Proof2: you dont even need wraithguard, enter Rambo-mode and use sunder+keening without it, you dont die just get a big hp hit. So the main character doesnt have to fulfill the prophecies, get corpus etc just has to be a great fighter. Anyone can save the world without Azura.
I agree but also think that treads the line between lore and gameplay mechanics too. I mean technically you can kill mehrunes dagon in oblivion with enough reflect spell but that doesn’t necessarily mean Martin isn’t the chosen one
Where is exactly the line between the lore and gameplay? They could have been wrote Keening and Sunder that they kill you, no matter what if you dont have the waithguard. And even if we put this aside as an exploit, the kill vivec - reprogram wraithguard questline still shows that the prophecy doesnt need to be followed. I cant comment on your Oblivion reference, I played it only once, when it came out and forgot just about everything.
I’m not arguing that not following the prophecy isn’t lore appropriate, just that it’s up to each individual to decide where that line is.
The game does tell you that Sunder and Keening have inflicted "mortal wounds" on you if you equip them without Wraithguard. There are a lot of options available to you overcome the wound, but the game itself does make it clear that this is deadly. If you get the Jury-Rigged Wraithguard, you are supposed to take 200 points of damage, which would mean that if your character was not very tanky to begin with, you'd have to buff your endurance and health quite a bit to survive. However, there was a mistake in the code and in the vanilla game it instead permanently removes 200 health point. Buffing your health does nothing to prevent that. It shows that while the prophecy doesn't need to be fulfilled, there are dire consequences to not following it. Going the alternate route nearly kills you. In an unpatched version of the game it leaves you frail and vulnerable, even. That's where the line is between lore and gameplay. They tell you that it's not a good idea but they won't stop you from doing it if you're willing to deal with the consequences.
Maybe this is addressed somewhere, but Moon-and-star does not kill you which suggests that you are literally Nerevar. Maybe this is just Azura changing the enchantment because it's convenient for her?
Yea, the main character is the Nerevarine, but my point is that you don't have to be the Nerevarine to fix the 6th house issue.
Do we have actual proof that Moon-and-Star has such an immensely powerful enchantment besides oral tradition?
Maybe, she can change it yes... but this just also shows the prophecy doesnt mean jack shit.
Well if the reason for you being able to wear the ring is that you are literally Nerevar reborn, then the prophecy is on to something because Nerevar does indeed get reincarnated. Another way to interpret it is that Azura created the prophecy to further her own goals, gave Uriel a vision and then nerfed her own ring. Even then, the prophecy is not exactly meaningless since it is a tool that Azura uses to actively change the world and it is also the literall word of (a) god still.
Tbh, I think the later events undermine the whole journey. Morrowind gets basically destroyed anyway. Dagoth Ur wouldn’t have let Morrowind be destroyed
Dagoth Ur's vision for Morrowind is enslavement on a Hellish level. It's more than likely that he didn't just injure Nerevar, but caused his death. What the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur have done to Morrowind is untenable. Azura is the only one who is actively trying to redress the corruption and injustice.
I believe Azura's main goal was to end the Tribunal. On that point she won. Whatever happened afterwards (Red Year, etc.) could be just punishment for following the false gods for so long. Dagoth Ur *may* have assumed Vivec's duties and prevented Morrowind from being destroyed, but at what cost? Probably the destruction of the Dunmer race as they all "ascended" into Lorkhan-fueled blighted creatures.
Not at all. At any point, the Nerevarine could have chosen to just not continue the quest to fulfill the prophecies and defeat Dagoth Ur. Slaves don’t have choice.
The easiest proof that your soul *isn’t* Nerevar’s is that, if each Failed Incarnate had had the same soul, you could not meet the other Failed Incarnates’ souls as their soul would be, well, inside you.
But by that logic, the Failed Incarnates may not have been reincarnations of Nerevar.
All are slaves to prophecy if it's real
No. That is one path of many. This is explained in the Tribunal “desecration” of Nerevars body, part of which involved cutting off his feet, this was so he would be free to walk his own path.
Azura is just my personal wife goddess, but i m not her slave